[ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu

Wed Sep 14 10:02:27 PDT 2016

Yes it was. And who is to say that we are not all objects? As someone who
will not take yes for an answer, I certainly object.
RP

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 7:51 PM, Panaiotis Gerontopoulos <
pan.gero at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Mr. Price, errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum. You say Κερκυραίος-
> α for a person, you say Κερκυραϊκός-ή-ό for an object. Ask your
> secretary.  As for reading what isn't there, wasn't your message of today
> 10. 40 AM addressed to somebody else?
>
> P.G.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* ILDS <ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca> on behalf of Richard Pine <
> pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2016 6:21:08 PM
>
> *To:* ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> *Subject:* Re: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
>
> Mr Gerontopoulos you are yet again reading what isn't there - no one
> suggested that you had anything to apologise for so the question does not
> arise. And as far as we in Corfu are concerned, one doesn't write
> 'Corfiot-Kerkyreos' but 'Corfiot-Kerkiraikos'.
> RP
>
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Panaiotis Gerontopoulos <
> pan.gero at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I didn't apologize, and I don't see why should I apologize and for what.
>> All I wanted was to facilitate this long  discussion pointing to attention
>> to non-Greek participants elementary  information contained in any Greek
>> encyclopedia. I live in Edipsos near Istiaia (Ιστιαία) known in the past
>> as  Xirochori (Ξηροχώρι) renamed for the very same reasons described in my
>> post. The same happened to many other Greek toponyms: Vostizza-Aigion
>> , Salona-Amfissa, Zituni-Lamia, Tsirigo-Kythira, Candia-Iraklion, etc. etc.
>> Ask any Corfiot-Kerkyreos friend. As for fundamentalists, Egypt-Khemia, and
>> my hypothetical terroristic  plans   ask CIA. The only question that
>> remains to be discussed, if any, is why Durrell chose Corcyra for a
>> novel taking place in modern Corfu.
>>
>>
>> P.G.
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* ILDS <ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca> on behalf of Richard Pine <
>> pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2016 9:49:42 AM
>> *To:* ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> *Subject:* Re: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
>>
>> Why are you apologising? No need.
>> I bet there are fundamentalists demanding, through their fundament, a
>> change from Egypt to Khemia or some such. You have probably started
>> something.
>> I think a lot of the 'western' names given to 'eastern' places are due to
>> hearing difficulties - phonological if you will, in the sense that logic
>> applied different results to phono.
>> I knew an English boy who would not say the Irish pro-name 'Proinnsias' -
>> the irish for Francis -  (approx pronunciation 'Pron-she-as' - so he said
>> 'Poncho', and his parents allowed him to do so. The child was perfectly
>> capable of saying the name correctly. I suspect that many 'westernised'
>> placenames originated because some explorer turned to his companion and
>> said 'I can't understand a word these coons are saying, Fitzherbert - let's
>> call it Swaziland' 'Oh golly good show Carruthers, I'll mark that down on
>> the map'.
>> Ethiopia
>> RP
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 3:04 AM, Bruce Redwine <
>> bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Okay about the Corfiots not being “insulted.”  My apologies.  But I’ll
>>> stick to a purely linguistic interpretation of how place names (as a rule)
>>> become transliterated from language to language.  I do not see “cultural
>>> differences” as being a factor in this kind of linguistics.  “Cultural
>>> differences” suggests to me, anyway, some kind of cultural bias or, at
>>> worse, some kind of cultural imperialism, the kind which Edward W. Said is
>>> famous for interpreting as a major sin of the West—the British, the French,
>>> and the Americans, in particular.   I assume this is what you’re implying
>>> by referring to the “udder sound” of “Mos-cow.”  There are purely
>>> linguistic reasons for Beijing/Peking, Kolkotta/Calcutta, and
>>> Mumbai/Bombay—and these I strongly doubt have anything to do with some kind
>>> of original prejudice (in the sense of the original adaptation into the
>>> Latin alphabet), if you will.  “Decolonization” has a lot to do with these
>>> phonological changes, but that should not reflect on the original choice of
>>> the place names—they were not, in my opinion, exploitative.  But there are
>>> exceptions, of course, where one culture imposes (?) a name on a foreign
>>> one.  The name for the land of Egypt is derived from the Greek
>>> *Aigyptos,* the Greek name for the city of Memphis.  The ancient
>>> “Egyptians” themselves referred to their land as *Khem* or *Khemet*
>>> (“the black land”).  *Egypt* has stuck, however, and doesn’t seem to
>>> bother today’s “Egyptians.”  I don’t see a movement for the renaming of
>>> Egypt and its Egyptians as the Land of Khem and its Khemians.  Undoubtedly,
>>> there are more such examples.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:31 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I did not suggest that referring to kerkyra as Corfu was insulting. The
>>> Corfiots do it all the time.
>>> But the 'linguistic' or 'phonetic' differences betray cultural
>>> differences which can sometimes be annoying.
>>> Moskva becomes Mos-coe becomes (for Americans) Mos-cow (an udder sound)
>>> - is it really so diffficult?
>>> We have all had to re-educate ourselves to say 'Beijing' instead of
>>> 'Peking', 'kolkotta' for 'Calcutta' and Mumbai for Bombay. This is
>>> de-colonialism and I suppose most people would welcome it.
>>> Ethiopia
>>> RP
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Bruce Redwine <
>>> bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There are linguistic reasons for differences in the spelling and
>>>> pronunciation of place names between languages, the main one being phonetic
>>>> or phonological differences.  So German *Wien* becomes English *Vienna*
>>>> simply because the English spelling conforms to the German pronunciation
>>>> (where the /a/ comes from is another matter).  By and large, I do not
>>>> interpret the differences as examples of colonialism, imperialism,
>>>> ethnocentrism, or even xenophobia (a good Greek word which the Greeks
>>>> invented and used).  As to *Kerkyra* v. *Corfu*, the former is Greek
>>>> and the latter apparently Byzantine Greek (as Durrell points out in his
>>>> etymology below).  How we English-speakers (and presumably others) have
>>>> adopted *Corfu* instead of *Kerkyra* is a historical problem—and not,
>>>> I think, a deliberate insult to the Corfiots.  The English and French
>>>> languages have been pretty good at respecting indigenous terms—for example,
>>>> Canada, Quebec, Michigan, Nebraska, and so on.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 1:11 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't think we should be surprised that Greeks refer to 'Corfu' as
>>>> 'Kerkyra' - it's the name of the place! And Corfiots (not Corfiotes,
>>>> please, that's a C17 term that's out of use) actually live in Kerkyra. it's
>>>> damned annoying for the rest of us that the Austrians insist on living in
>>>> Wien, when we all know they live in Vienna, and even worse that the Swiss
>>>> want to be in Genf. Don't we all wish that locals would learn that it is WE
>>>> who decide on their placenames? Where would everyone be if locals were
>>>> allowed to choose their own identity!
>>>> RP
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Bruce Redwine <
>>>> bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Richard.  Modern Greek *Kerkyra* preserves ancient Greek *Κερκῡρα
>>>>> *(Liddell and Scott).  So it may be that Durrell chose to honor this
>>>>> usage and this past, which seem to be lost on contemporary readers.  I
>>>>> mentioned before Open Road’s alteration of Durrell’s subtitle—“Corcyra”
>>>>> becomes “Corfu.”  Something similar happens in Ian MacNiven’s edition of *Prospero’s
>>>>> Cell* (New York:  Marlowe, 1996).  MacNiven does not change Durrell’s
>>>>> subtitle, but the publisher alters the title on the book’s cover:  *Prospero’s
>>>>> Cell:  A Guide to the Landscape and Manners of the Island of Corfu.  *Durrell’s
>>>>> use of *Corcyra* is akin to Robert Byron’s use of *Oxiana* in *The
>>>>> Road to Oxiana* (1937), which Durrell probably read, I’m guessing.
>>>>> *Oxiana* refers to the country around the Oxus River in Central Asia,
>>>>> now called the Amu.  *Oxus* is exotic, obscure even, unless one
>>>>> recalls Arnold “Sohrab and Rustum.”  Byron’s famous book develops through a
>>>>> series of dated diary entries (Venice is the first—echoes of *Bitter
>>>>> Lemons?).*  Durrell may have followed this pattern and then varied it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:24 PM, james Esposito <
>>>>> giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer
>>>>> to their island?
>>>>> The answer: Kerkyra
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:34 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> James, I previously addressed this email wrong.  Please post of
>>>>>> list.  Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From: *Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> *Subject: **Corcyra v. Corfu*
>>>>>> *Date: *September 11, 2016 at 2:22:15 PM PDT
>>>>>> *To: *Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com>
>>>>>> *Cc: *Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Re *Prospero’s Cell,* it might be worthwhile to look carefully at
>>>>>> Durrell’s use of *Corcyra* as opposed to *Corfu.*  First a little
>>>>>> pedantry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1.  The *OED* 2nd does not have a separate entry for either *Corcyra*
>>>>>> or *Corfu.*  The former is not mentioned; the latter—defined as “the
>>>>>> Greek island of Corfu”—is noted under “Corfiote.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2.  Wikipedia has the following:  *Corfu* (/kɔːrˈfuː, -fjuː/
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English>; Greek
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>: Κέρκυρα, *Kérkyra*
>>>>>> [ˈcercira] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Greek>;
>>>>>> Ancient Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: Κέρκυρα
>>>>>> or Κόρκυρα; Latin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language>:
>>>>>> *Corcyra*; Italian <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language>:
>>>>>> *Corfu*).  This etymology, which I assume is correct, suggests that
>>>>>> *Corcyra* is a transliteration of the older term in ancient Greek,
>>>>>> whereas * Corfu* derives from modern Italian or some dialect of the
>>>>>> same.  (How *cyra* becomes *fu* is an interesting problem
>>>>>> in historical linguistics.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3.  Durrell himself provides the following etymologies of *Corfu *and
>>>>>>  *Corcyra:*  “2.10.37.  The literati of ‘the Partridge’ have spent a
>>>>>> great deal of time upon the etymological derivation of the
>>>>>> word ‘Corfu.’  The current explanation that the Byzantine use of the word
>>>>>> was related in some way to *kòpuɸαι* (meaning twin-peaked) is not
>>>>>> entirely acceptable to Zarian though Theodore’s more exacting scholarship
>>>>>> appears to accept the idea.  Any modern Greek dictionary will list
>>>>>> *kópɸos* which means ‘gulf’; while research into the word Corcyra
>>>>>> will give you the following *kέpkos*: (a tail, a handle);
>>>>>> *kὲpkoupos* (a fish); and  *kepis* (a weaver’s comb, a leg bone, a
>>>>>> fiddle bow).”  (p. 70; Greek orthography approximate)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How does Durrell use these two terms?  The first usage of *Corcyra* appears
>>>>>> in his subtitle:  “the island of Corcyra.”  The first usage of
>>>>>> *Corfu* appears in the first sentence of his text:  “Somewhere
>>>>>> between Calabria and Corfu the blue really begins.”  (Note:  he does not
>>>>>> say, “Somewhere between Calabria and Corcyra.”)  He uses *Corfu*
>>>>>> more often than *Corcyra*, according to my digital version of * PC.
>>>>>>  *This suggests to me that *Corfu* is the unmarked or normal term in
>>>>>> Durrell’s vocabulary.  The terms may be interchangeable, although I doubt
>>>>>> this.  I’m tempted to say that Durrell uses *Corcyra* for some
>>>>>> special effect, but that would require a more detailed reading than I’m
>>>>>> willing to give at the moment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I use the Open Road digital version of Durrell’s works.  I do not
>>>>>> trust this publisher.  Open Road has made changes to Durrell’s text,
>>>>>> presumably to make it appeal to the contemporary reader.  A major change
>>>>>> occurs in the subtitle:  “the island of Corfu,” not “Corcyra.”  I think
>>>>>> this important—it violates Durrell’s intent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Richard Pine asks the question, “Can you explain why you
>>>>>> think ‘Corcyra’ is less common than 'Corfu' or 'Kerkyra'?  Why is it
>>>>>> signal?”  Although I do not know Greek, I think the answer lies in the
>>>>>> context and the frequency of Durrell’s usage.  The obvious question so far
>>>>>> unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  To repeat, the
>>>>>> Wikipedia etymology suggests to me that *Corcyra* is the archaic
>>>>>> term and as such evokes a special effect immediately announced in the
>>>>>> subtitle of *Prospero’s Cell,* which is exactly why Open Road chose
>>>>>> (egregiously) to change it.  That is, the modern reader might be put off by
>>>>>> exotic allusions.  My explanation is that Durrell is using *Corcyra*
>>>>>> to hearken back to a particular kind of travel literature.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
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