From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Sep 12 10:24:08 2016
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 10:24:08 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
In-Reply-To: <CAFcAaFcpwU6_Pz2Sb98Cth29rHgsdOf2JjiUW7PbDsxx343kYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <99C7BDCA-46D3-4F39-8BF6-718CB0A5EB0F@gmail.com>
	<DE142D17-EC30-4356-A6C9-583DE6075342@gmail.com>
	<CAFcAaFcpwU6_Pz2Sb98Cth29rHgsdOf2JjiUW7PbDsxx343kYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7BA88C47-3A36-4050-A7E0-CCE151349938@earthlink.net>

Thanks, Richard.  Modern Greek Kerkyra preserves ancient Greek ??????? (Liddell and Scott).  So it may be that Durrell chose to honor this usage and this past, which seem to be lost on contemporary readers.  I mentioned before Open Road?s alteration of Durrell?s subtitle??Corcyra? becomes ?Corfu.?  Something similar happens in Ian MacNiven?s edition of Prospero?s Cell (New York:  Marlowe, 1996).  MacNiven does not change Durrell?s subtitle, but the publisher alters the title on the book?s cover:  Prospero?s Cell:  A Guide to the Landscape and Manners of the Island of Corfu.  Durrell?s use of Corcyra is akin to Robert Byron?s use of Oxiana in The Road to Oxiana (1937), which Durrell probably read, I?m guessing.  Oxiana refers to the country around the Oxus River in Central Asia, now called the Amu.  Oxus is exotic, obscure even, unless one recalls Arnold ?Sohrab and Rustum.?  Byron?s famous book develops through a series of dated diary entries (Venice is the first?echoes of Bitter Lemons?).  Durrell may have followed this pattern and then varied it.

Bruce





> On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:24 PM, james Esposito <giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  
> The answer: Kerkyra
> 
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:34 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com <mailto:bredwine1968 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> James, I previously addressed this email wrong.  Please post of list.  Thanks.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com <mailto:bredwine1968 at gmail.com>>
>> Subject: Corcyra v. Corfu
>> Date: September 11, 2016 at 2:22:15 PM PDT
>> To: Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com <mailto:sumantranag at gmail.com>>
>> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>>
>> 
>> Re Prospero?s Cell, it might be worthwhile to look carefully at Durrell?s use of Corcyra as opposed to Corfu.  First a little pedantry.
>> 
>> 1.  The OED 2nd does not have a separate entry for either Corcyra or Corfu.  The former is not mentioned; the latter?defined as ?the Greek island of Corfu??is noted under ?Corfiote.?
>> 
>> 2.  Wikipedia has the following:  Corfu (/k??r?fu?,?-fju?/ <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English>; Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>: ???????, K?rkyra [?cercira] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Greek>; Ancient?Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: ??????? or ???????; Latin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language>: Corcyra; Italian <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language>: Corfu).  This etymology, which I assume is correct, suggests that Corcyra is a transliteration of the older term in ancient Greek, whereas Corfu derives from modern Italian or some dialect of the same.  (How cyra becomes fu is an interesting problem in historical linguistics.)
>> 
>> 3.  Durrell himself provides the following etymologies of Corfu and Corcyra:  ?2.10.37.  The literati of ?the Partridge? have spent a great deal of time upon the etymological derivation of the word ?Corfu.?  The current explanation that the Byzantine use of the word was related in some way to k?pu??? (meaning twin-peaked) is not entirely acceptable to Zarian though Theodore?s more exacting scholarship appears to accept the idea.  Any modern Greek dictionary will list k?p?os which means ?gulf?; while research into the word Corcyra will give you the following k?pkos: (a tail, a handle);  k?pkoupos (a fish); and  kepis (a weaver?s comb, a leg bone, a fiddle bow).?  (p. 70; Greek orthography approximate)
>> 
>> How does Durrell use these two terms?  The first usage of Corcyra appears in his subtitle:  ?the island of Corcyra.?  The first usage of Corfu appears in the first sentence of his text:  ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corfu the blue really begins.?  (Note:  he does not say, ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corcyra.?)  He uses Corfu more often than Corcyra, according to my digital version of PC.  This suggests to me that Corfu is the unmarked or normal term in Durrell?s vocabulary.  The terms may be interchangeable, although I doubt this.  I?m tempted to say that Durrell uses Corcyra for some special effect, but that would require a more detailed reading than I?m willing to give at the moment.
>> 
>> I use the Open Road digital version of Durrell?s works.  I do not trust this publisher.  Open Road has made changes to Durrell?s text, presumably to make it appeal to the contemporary reader.  A major change occurs in the subtitle:  ?the island of Corfu,? not ?Corcyra.?  I think this important?it violates Durrell?s intent.
>> 
>> Richard Pine asks the question, ?Can you explain why you think ?Corcyra? is less common than 'Corfu' or 'Kerkyra'?  Why is it signal??  Although I do not know Greek, I think the answer lies in the context and the frequency of Durrell?s usage.  The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  To repeat, the Wikipedia etymology suggests to me that Corcyra is the archaic term and as such evokes a special effect immediately announced in the subtitle of Prospero?s Cell, which is exactly why Open Road chose (egregiously) to change it.  That is, the modern reader might be put off by exotic allusions.  My explanation is that Durrell is using Corcyra to hearken back to a particular kind of travel literature.
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 

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From pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com  Mon Sep 12 10:36:33 2016
From: pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com (Richard Pine)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 20:36:33 +0300
Subject: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
In-Reply-To: <7BA88C47-3A36-4050-A7E0-CCE151349938@earthlink.net>
References: <99C7BDCA-46D3-4F39-8BF6-718CB0A5EB0F@gmail.com>
	<DE142D17-EC30-4356-A6C9-583DE6075342@gmail.com>
	<CAFcAaFcpwU6_Pz2Sb98Cth29rHgsdOf2JjiUW7PbDsxx343kYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<7BA88C47-3A36-4050-A7E0-CCE151349938@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAEVum0+bgMxcBPb8b_2hk11gLnD=o+ONn7S5qvFe+GzzApLq1w@mail.gmail.com>

And in some editions of "Bitter Lemons" the suffix "of Cyprus" was added
(to say nothing of the titles in various translations!)
We are currently trying to list LD in translation for a page on the DLC
website. And finding quite a range of equivalents, not unlike the way
Italian and Spanish (e.,g.) titles are applied to the packaging of DVDs -
e.g. "E Venne il Giorno della Vendetta" (Behold a Pale Horse) or "Il
Ritorno della Aouile" (Holcroft Covenant) - LD's "Caesar's Vast Ghost:
Aspects of Provence" is, in Polish, quite simply "Prowansja".
RP

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
wrote:

> Thanks, Richard.  Modern Greek *Kerkyra* preserves ancient Greek *???????
> *(Liddell and Scott).  So it may be that Durrell chose to honor this
> usage and this past, which seem to be lost on contemporary readers.  I
> mentioned before Open Road?s alteration of Durrell?s subtitle??Corcyra?
> becomes ?Corfu.?  Something similar happens in Ian MacNiven?s edition of *Prospero?s
> Cell* (New York:  Marlowe, 1996).  MacNiven does not change Durrell?s
> subtitle, but the publisher alters the title on the book?s cover:  *Prospero?s
> Cell:  A Guide to the Landscape and Manners of the Island of Corfu.  *Durrell?s
> use of *Corcyra* is akin to Robert Byron?s use of *Oxiana* in *The Road
> to Oxiana* (1937), which Durrell probably read, I?m guessing.  *Oxiana*
> refers to the country around the Oxus River in Central Asia, now called the
> Amu.  *Oxus* is exotic, obscure even, unless one recalls Arnold ?Sohrab
> and Rustum.?  Byron?s famous book develops through a series of dated diary
> entries (Venice is the first?echoes of *Bitter Lemons?).*  Durrell may
> have followed this pattern and then varied it.
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:24 PM, james Esposito <giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to
> their island?
> The answer: Kerkyra
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:34 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> James, I previously addressed this email wrong.  Please post of list.
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From: *Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com>
>> *Subject: **Corcyra v. Corfu*
>> *Date: *September 11, 2016 at 2:22:15 PM PDT
>> *To: *Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>
>> Re *Prospero?s Cell,* it might be worthwhile to look carefully at
>> Durrell?s use of *Corcyra* as opposed to *Corfu.*  First a little
>> pedantry.
>>
>> 1.  The *OED* 2nd does not have a separate entry for either *Corcyra* or
>> *Corfu.*  The former is not mentioned; the latter?defined as ?the Greek
>> island of Corfu??is noted under ?Corfiote.?
>>
>> 2.  Wikipedia has the following:  *Corfu* (/k??r?fu?, -fju?/
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English>; Greek
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>: ???????, *K?rkyra*
>> [?cercira] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Greek>;
>> Ancient Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: ??????? or
>> ???????; Latin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language>: *Corcyra*
>> ; Italian <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language>: *Corfu*).  This
>> etymology, which I assume is correct, suggests that *Corcyra* is a
>> transliteration of the older term in ancient Greek, whereas *Corfu*
>> derives from modern Italian or some dialect of the same.  (How *cyra* becomes
>> *fu* is an interesting problem in historical linguistics.)
>>
>> 3.  Durrell himself provides the following etymologies of *Corfu *and
>> *Corcyra:*  ?2.10.37.  The literati of ?the Partridge? have spent a
>> great deal of time upon the etymological derivation of the
>> word ?Corfu.?  The current explanation that the Byzantine use of the word
>> was related in some way to *k?pu???* (meaning twin-peaked) is not
>> entirely acceptable to Zarian though Theodore?s more exacting scholarship
>> appears to accept the idea.  Any modern Greek dictionary will list
>> *k?p?os* which means ?gulf?; while research into the word Corcyra will
>> give you the following *k?pkos*: (a tail, a handle);  *k?pkoupos* (a
>> fish); and  *kepis* (a weaver?s comb, a leg bone, a fiddle bow).?  (p.
>> 70; Greek orthography approximate)
>>
>>
>> How does Durrell use these two terms?  The first usage of *Corcyra* appears
>> in his subtitle:  ?the island of Corcyra.?  The first usage of *Corfu* appears
>> in the first sentence of his text:  ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corfu
>> the blue really begins.?  (Note:  he does not say, ?Somewhere between
>> Calabria and Corcyra.?)  He uses *Corfu* more often than *Corcyra*,
>> according to my digital version of *PC.  *This suggests to me that
>> *Corfu* is the unmarked or normal term in Durrell?s vocabulary.  The
>> terms may be interchangeable, although I doubt this.  I?m tempted to say
>> that Durrell uses *Corcyra* for some special effect, but that would
>> require a more detailed reading than I?m willing to give at the moment.
>>
>> I use the Open Road digital version of Durrell?s works.  I do not trust
>> this publisher.  Open Road has made changes to Durrell?s text, presumably
>> to make it appeal to the contemporary reader.  A major change occurs in the
>> subtitle:  ?the island of Corfu,? not ?Corcyra.?  I think this important?it
>> violates Durrell?s intent.
>>
>> Richard Pine asks the question, ?Can you explain why you
>> think ?Corcyra? is less common than 'Corfu' or 'Kerkyra'?  Why is it
>> signal??  Although I do not know Greek, I think the answer lies in the
>> context and the frequency of Durrell?s usage.  The obvious question so far
>> unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  To repeat, the
>> Wikipedia etymology suggests to me that *Corcyra* is the archaic term
>> and as such evokes a special effect immediately announced in the subtitle
>> of *Prospero?s Cell,* which is exactly why Open Road chose (egregiously)
>> to change it.  That is, the modern reader might be put off by exotic
>> allusions.  My explanation is that Durrell is using *Corcyra* to hearken
>> back to a particular kind of travel literature.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
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From pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com  Tue Sep 13 01:11:11 2016
From: pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com (Richard Pine)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 11:11:11 +0300
Subject: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
In-Reply-To: <7BA88C47-3A36-4050-A7E0-CCE151349938@earthlink.net>
References: <99C7BDCA-46D3-4F39-8BF6-718CB0A5EB0F@gmail.com>
	<DE142D17-EC30-4356-A6C9-583DE6075342@gmail.com>
	<CAFcAaFcpwU6_Pz2Sb98Cth29rHgsdOf2JjiUW7PbDsxx343kYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<7BA88C47-3A36-4050-A7E0-CCE151349938@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAEVum0+Kh0yGu2BSmNKqA70TARvhp6UEhd+BKeCsGywTuDwouw@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think we should be surprised that Greeks refer to 'Corfu' as
'Kerkyra' - it's the name of the place! And Corfiots (not Corfiotes,
please, that's a C17 term that's out of use) actually live in Kerkyra. it's
damned annoying for the rest of us that the Austrians insist on living in
Wien, when we all know they live in Vienna, and even worse that the Swiss
want to be in Genf. Don't we all wish that locals would learn that it is WE
who decide on their placenames? Where would everyone be if locals were
allowed to choose their own identity!
RP

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
wrote:

> Thanks, Richard.  Modern Greek *Kerkyra* preserves ancient Greek *???????
> *(Liddell and Scott).  So it may be that Durrell chose to honor this
> usage and this past, which seem to be lost on contemporary readers.  I
> mentioned before Open Road?s alteration of Durrell?s subtitle??Corcyra?
> becomes ?Corfu.?  Something similar happens in Ian MacNiven?s edition of *Prospero?s
> Cell* (New York:  Marlowe, 1996).  MacNiven does not change Durrell?s
> subtitle, but the publisher alters the title on the book?s cover:  *Prospero?s
> Cell:  A Guide to the Landscape and Manners of the Island of Corfu.  *Durrell?s
> use of *Corcyra* is akin to Robert Byron?s use of *Oxiana* in *The Road
> to Oxiana* (1937), which Durrell probably read, I?m guessing.  *Oxiana*
> refers to the country around the Oxus River in Central Asia, now called the
> Amu.  *Oxus* is exotic, obscure even, unless one recalls Arnold ?Sohrab
> and Rustum.?  Byron?s famous book develops through a series of dated diary
> entries (Venice is the first?echoes of *Bitter Lemons?).*  Durrell may
> have followed this pattern and then varied it.
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:24 PM, james Esposito <giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to
> their island?
> The answer: Kerkyra
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:34 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> James, I previously addressed this email wrong.  Please post of list.
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From: *Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com>
>> *Subject: **Corcyra v. Corfu*
>> *Date: *September 11, 2016 at 2:22:15 PM PDT
>> *To: *Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>
>> Re *Prospero?s Cell,* it might be worthwhile to look carefully at
>> Durrell?s use of *Corcyra* as opposed to *Corfu.*  First a little
>> pedantry.
>>
>> 1.  The *OED* 2nd does not have a separate entry for either *Corcyra* or
>> *Corfu.*  The former is not mentioned; the latter?defined as ?the Greek
>> island of Corfu??is noted under ?Corfiote.?
>>
>> 2.  Wikipedia has the following:  *Corfu* (/k??r?fu?, -fju?/
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English>; Greek
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>: ???????, *K?rkyra*
>> [?cercira] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Greek>;
>> Ancient Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: ??????? or
>> ???????; Latin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language>: *Corcyra*
>> ; Italian <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language>: *Corfu*).  This
>> etymology, which I assume is correct, suggests that *Corcyra* is a
>> transliteration of the older term in ancient Greek, whereas *Corfu*
>> derives from modern Italian or some dialect of the same.  (How *cyra* becomes
>> *fu* is an interesting problem in historical linguistics.)
>>
>> 3.  Durrell himself provides the following etymologies of *Corfu *and
>> *Corcyra:*  ?2.10.37.  The literati of ?the Partridge? have spent a
>> great deal of time upon the etymological derivation of the
>> word ?Corfu.?  The current explanation that the Byzantine use of the word
>> was related in some way to *k?pu???* (meaning twin-peaked) is not
>> entirely acceptable to Zarian though Theodore?s more exacting scholarship
>> appears to accept the idea.  Any modern Greek dictionary will list
>> *k?p?os* which means ?gulf?; while research into the word Corcyra will
>> give you the following *k?pkos*: (a tail, a handle);  *k?pkoupos* (a
>> fish); and  *kepis* (a weaver?s comb, a leg bone, a fiddle bow).?  (p.
>> 70; Greek orthography approximate)
>>
>>
>> How does Durrell use these two terms?  The first usage of *Corcyra* appears
>> in his subtitle:  ?the island of Corcyra.?  The first usage of *Corfu* appears
>> in the first sentence of his text:  ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corfu
>> the blue really begins.?  (Note:  he does not say, ?Somewhere between
>> Calabria and Corcyra.?)  He uses *Corfu* more often than *Corcyra*,
>> according to my digital version of *PC.  *This suggests to me that
>> *Corfu* is the unmarked or normal term in Durrell?s vocabulary.  The
>> terms may be interchangeable, although I doubt this.  I?m tempted to say
>> that Durrell uses *Corcyra* for some special effect, but that would
>> require a more detailed reading than I?m willing to give at the moment.
>>
>> I use the Open Road digital version of Durrell?s works.  I do not trust
>> this publisher.  Open Road has made changes to Durrell?s text, presumably
>> to make it appeal to the contemporary reader.  A major change occurs in the
>> subtitle:  ?the island of Corfu,? not ?Corcyra.?  I think this important?it
>> violates Durrell?s intent.
>>
>> Richard Pine asks the question, ?Can you explain why you
>> think ?Corcyra? is less common than 'Corfu' or 'Kerkyra'?  Why is it
>> signal??  Although I do not know Greek, I think the answer lies in the
>> context and the frequency of Durrell?s usage.  The obvious question so far
>> unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  To repeat, the
>> Wikipedia etymology suggests to me that *Corcyra* is the archaic term
>> and as such evokes a special effect immediately announced in the subtitle
>> of *Prospero?s Cell,* which is exactly why Open Road chose (egregiously)
>> to change it.  That is, the modern reader might be put off by exotic
>> allusions.  My explanation is that Durrell is using *Corcyra* to hearken
>> back to a particular kind of travel literature.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 13 10:36:12 2016
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 10:36:12 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
In-Reply-To: <CAEVum0+Kh0yGu2BSmNKqA70TARvhp6UEhd+BKeCsGywTuDwouw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <99C7BDCA-46D3-4F39-8BF6-718CB0A5EB0F@gmail.com>
	<DE142D17-EC30-4356-A6C9-583DE6075342@gmail.com>
	<CAFcAaFcpwU6_Pz2Sb98Cth29rHgsdOf2JjiUW7PbDsxx343kYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<7BA88C47-3A36-4050-A7E0-CCE151349938@earthlink.net>
	<CAEVum0+Kh0yGu2BSmNKqA70TARvhp6UEhd+BKeCsGywTuDwouw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BE7DEE56-E2F0-4B6F-A16D-EBC80B5BAF8D@earthlink.net>

There are linguistic reasons for differences in the spelling and pronunciation of place names between languages, the main one being phonetic or phonological differences.  So German Wien becomes English Vienna simply because the English spelling conforms to the German pronunciation (where the /a/ comes from is another matter).  By and large, I do not interpret the differences as examples of colonialism, imperialism, ethnocentrism, or even xenophobia (a good Greek word which the Greeks invented and used).  As to Kerkyra v. Corfu, the former is Greek and the latter apparently Byzantine Greek (as Durrell points out in his etymology below).  How we English-speakers (and presumably others) have adopted Corfu instead of Kerkyra is a historical problem?and not, I think, a deliberate insult to the Corfiots.  The English and French languages have been pretty good at respecting indigenous terms?for example, Canada, Quebec, Michigan, Nebraska, and so on.

Bruce





> On Sep 13, 2016, at 1:11 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I don't think we should be surprised that Greeks refer to 'Corfu' as 'Kerkyra' - it's the name of the place! And Corfiots (not Corfiotes, please, that's a C17 term that's out of use) actually live in Kerkyra. it's damned annoying for the rest of us that the Austrians insist on living in Wien, when we all know they live in Vienna, and even worse that the Swiss want to be in Genf. Don't we all wish that locals would learn that it is WE who decide on their placenames? Where would everyone be if locals were allowed to choose their own identity!
> RP
> 
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
> Thanks, Richard.  Modern Greek Kerkyra preserves ancient Greek ??????? (Liddell and Scott).  So it may be that Durrell chose to honor this usage and this past, which seem to be lost on contemporary readers.  I mentioned before Open Road?s alteration of Durrell?s subtitle??Corcyra? becomes ?Corfu.?  Something similar happens in Ian MacNiven?s edition of Prospero?s Cell (New York:  Marlowe, 1996).  MacNiven does not change Durrell?s subtitle, but the publisher alters the title on the book?s cover:  Prospero?s Cell:  A Guide to the Landscape and Manners of the Island of Corfu.  Durrell?s use of Corcyra is akin to Robert Byron?s use of Oxiana in The Road to Oxiana (1937), which Durrell probably read, I?m guessing.  Oxiana refers to the country around the Oxus River in Central Asia, now called the Amu.  Oxus is exotic, obscure even, unless one recalls Arnold ?Sohrab and Rustum.?  Byron?s famous book develops through a series of dated diary entries (Venice is the first?echoes of Bitter Lemons?).  Durrell may have followed this pattern and then varied it.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:24 PM, james Esposito <giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com <mailto:giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  
>> The answer: Kerkyra
>> 
>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:34 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com <mailto:bredwine1968 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> James, I previously addressed this email wrong.  Please post of list.  Thanks.
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>> 
>>> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com <mailto:bredwine1968 at gmail.com>>
>>> Subject: Corcyra v. Corfu
>>> Date: September 11, 2016 at 2:22:15 PM PDT
>>> To: Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com <mailto:sumantranag at gmail.com>>
>>> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>>
>>> 
>>> Re Prospero?s Cell, it might be worthwhile to look carefully at Durrell?s use of Corcyra as opposed to Corfu.  First a little pedantry.
>>> 
>>> 1.  The OED 2nd does not have a separate entry for either Corcyra or Corfu.  The former is not mentioned; the latter?defined as ?the Greek island of Corfu??is noted under ?Corfiote.?
>>> 
>>> 2.  Wikipedia has the following:  Corfu (/k??r?fu?,?-fju?/ <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English>; Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>: ???????, K?rkyra [?cercira] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Greek>; Ancient?Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: ??????? or ???????; Latin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language>: Corcyra; Italian <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language>: Corfu).  This etymology, which I assume is correct, suggests that Corcyra is a transliteration of the older term in ancient Greek, whereas Corfu derives from modern Italian or some dialect of the same.  (How cyra becomes fu is an interesting problem in historical linguistics.)
>>> 
>>> 3.  Durrell himself provides the following etymologies of Corfu and Corcyra:  ?2.10.37.  The literati of ?the Partridge? have spent a great deal of time upon the etymological derivation of the word ?Corfu.?  The current explanation that the Byzantine use of the word was related in some way to k?pu??? (meaning twin-peaked) is not entirely acceptable to Zarian though Theodore?s more exacting scholarship appears to accept the idea.  Any modern Greek dictionary will list k?p?os which means ?gulf?; while research into the word Corcyra will give you the following k?pkos: (a tail, a handle);  k?pkoupos (a fish); and  kepis (a weaver?s comb, a leg bone, a fiddle bow).?  (p. 70; Greek orthography approximate)
>>> 
>>> How does Durrell use these two terms?  The first usage of Corcyra appears in his subtitle:  ?the island of Corcyra.?  The first usage of Corfu appears in the first sentence of his text:  ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corfu the blue really begins.?  (Note:  he does not say, ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corcyra.?)  He uses Corfu more often than Corcyra, according to my digital version of PC.  This suggests to me that Corfu is the unmarked or normal term in Durrell?s vocabulary.  The terms may be interchangeable, although I doubt this.  I?m tempted to say that Durrell uses Corcyra for some special effect, but that would require a more detailed reading than I?m willing to give at the moment.
>>> 
>>> I use the Open Road digital version of Durrell?s works.  I do not trust this publisher.  Open Road has made changes to Durrell?s text, presumably to make it appeal to the contemporary reader.  A major change occurs in the subtitle:  ?the island of Corfu,? not ?Corcyra.?  I think this important?it violates Durrell?s intent.
>>> 
>>> Richard Pine asks the question, ?Can you explain why you think ?Corcyra? is less common than 'Corfu' or 'Kerkyra'?  Why is it signal??  Although I do not know Greek, I think the answer lies in the context and the frequency of Durrell?s usage.  The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  To repeat, the Wikipedia etymology suggests to me that Corcyra is the archaic term and as such evokes a special effect immediately announced in the subtitle of Prospero?s Cell, which is exactly why Open Road chose (egregiously) to change it.  That is, the modern reader might be put off by exotic allusions.  My explanation is that Durrell is using Corcyra to hearken back to a particular kind of travel literature.
>>> 
>>> Bruce
>>> 
> 
> 
> _
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From pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com  Tue Sep 13 11:31:49 2016
From: pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com (Richard Pine)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 21:31:49 +0300
Subject: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
In-Reply-To: <BE7DEE56-E2F0-4B6F-A16D-EBC80B5BAF8D@earthlink.net>
References: <99C7BDCA-46D3-4F39-8BF6-718CB0A5EB0F@gmail.com>
	<DE142D17-EC30-4356-A6C9-583DE6075342@gmail.com>
	<CAFcAaFcpwU6_Pz2Sb98Cth29rHgsdOf2JjiUW7PbDsxx343kYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<7BA88C47-3A36-4050-A7E0-CCE151349938@earthlink.net>
	<CAEVum0+Kh0yGu2BSmNKqA70TARvhp6UEhd+BKeCsGywTuDwouw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BE7DEE56-E2F0-4B6F-A16D-EBC80B5BAF8D@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAEVum0K_PJyCnHyUZUbGSvORDkDCtAgLdNWm77+GfF8_uRtEYA@mail.gmail.com>

I did not suggest that referring to kerkyra as Corfu was insulting. The
Corfiots do it all the time.
But the 'linguistic' or 'phonetic' differences betray cultural differences
which can sometimes be annoying.
Moskva becomes Mos-coe becomes (for Americans) Mos-cow (an udder sound) -
is it really so diffficult?
We have all had to re-educate ourselves to say 'Beijing' instead of
'Peking', 'kolkotta' for 'Calcutta' and Mumbai for Bombay. This is
de-colonialism and I suppose most people would welcome it.
Ethiopia
RP

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
wrote:

> There are linguistic reasons for differences in the spelling and
> pronunciation of place names between languages, the main one being phonetic
> or phonological differences.  So German *Wien* becomes English *Vienna*
> simply because the English spelling conforms to the German pronunciation
> (where the /a/ comes from is another matter).  By and large, I do not
> interpret the differences as examples of colonialism, imperialism,
> ethnocentrism, or even xenophobia (a good Greek word which the Greeks
> invented and used).  As to *Kerkyra* v. *Corfu*, the former is Greek and
> the latter apparently Byzantine Greek (as Durrell points out in his
> etymology below).  How we English-speakers (and presumably others) have
> adopted *Corfu* instead of *Kerkyra* is a historical problem?and not, I
> think, a deliberate insult to the Corfiots.  The English and French
> languages have been pretty good at respecting indigenous terms?for example,
> Canada, Quebec, Michigan, Nebraska, and so on.
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 13, 2016, at 1:11 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I don't think we should be surprised that Greeks refer to 'Corfu' as
> 'Kerkyra' - it's the name of the place! And Corfiots (not Corfiotes,
> please, that's a C17 term that's out of use) actually live in Kerkyra. it's
> damned annoying for the rest of us that the Austrians insist on living in
> Wien, when we all know they live in Vienna, and even worse that the Swiss
> want to be in Genf. Don't we all wish that locals would learn that it is WE
> who decide on their placenames? Where would everyone be if locals were
> allowed to choose their own identity!
> RP
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
> > wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Richard.  Modern Greek *Kerkyra* preserves ancient Greek *???????
>> *(Liddell and Scott).  So it may be that Durrell chose to honor this
>> usage and this past, which seem to be lost on contemporary readers.  I
>> mentioned before Open Road?s alteration of Durrell?s subtitle??Corcyra?
>> becomes ?Corfu.?  Something similar happens in Ian MacNiven?s edition of *Prospero?s
>> Cell* (New York:  Marlowe, 1996).  MacNiven does not change Durrell?s
>> subtitle, but the publisher alters the title on the book?s cover:  *Prospero?s
>> Cell:  A Guide to the Landscape and Manners of the Island of Corfu.  *Durrell?s
>> use of *Corcyra* is akin to Robert Byron?s use of *Oxiana* in *The Road
>> to Oxiana* (1937), which Durrell probably read, I?m guessing.  *Oxiana*
>> refers to the country around the Oxus River in Central Asia, now called the
>> Amu.  *Oxus* is exotic, obscure even, unless one recalls Arnold ?Sohrab
>> and Rustum.?  Byron?s famous book develops through a series of dated diary
>> entries (Venice is the first?echoes of *Bitter Lemons?).*  Durrell may
>> have followed this pattern and then varied it.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:24 PM, james Esposito <giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to
>> their island?
>> The answer: Kerkyra
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:34 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> James, I previously addressed this email wrong.  Please post of list.
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>> *From: *Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com>
>>> *Subject: **Corcyra v. Corfu*
>>> *Date: *September 11, 2016 at 2:22:15 PM PDT
>>> *To: *Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com>
>>> *Cc: *Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>
>>> Re *Prospero?s Cell,* it might be worthwhile to look carefully at
>>> Durrell?s use of *Corcyra* as opposed to *Corfu.*  First a little
>>> pedantry.
>>>
>>> 1.  The *OED* 2nd does not have a separate entry for either *Corcyra*
>>> or *Corfu.*  The former is not mentioned; the latter?defined as ?the
>>> Greek island of Corfu??is noted under ?Corfiote.?
>>>
>>> 2.  Wikipedia has the following:  *Corfu* (/k??r?fu?, -fju?/
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English>; Greek
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>: ???????, *K?rkyra*
>>> [?cercira] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Greek>;
>>> Ancient Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: ??????? or
>>> ???????; Latin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language>: *Corcyra*
>>> ; Italian <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language>: *Corfu*).  This
>>> etymology, which I assume is correct, suggests that *Corcyra* is a
>>> transliteration of the older term in ancient Greek, whereas *Corfu*
>>> derives from modern Italian or some dialect of the same.  (How *cyra* becomes
>>> *fu* is an interesting problem in historical linguistics.)
>>>
>>> 3.  Durrell himself provides the following etymologies of *Corfu *and
>>> *Corcyra:*  ?2.10.37.  The literati of ?the Partridge? have spent a
>>> great deal of time upon the etymological derivation of the
>>> word ?Corfu.?  The current explanation that the Byzantine use of the word
>>> was related in some way to *k?pu???* (meaning twin-peaked) is not
>>> entirely acceptable to Zarian though Theodore?s more exacting scholarship
>>> appears to accept the idea.  Any modern Greek dictionary will list
>>> *k?p?os* which means ?gulf?; while research into the word Corcyra will
>>> give you the following *k?pkos*: (a tail, a handle);  *k?pkoupos* (a
>>> fish); and  *kepis* (a weaver?s comb, a leg bone, a fiddle bow).?  (p.
>>> 70; Greek orthography approximate)
>>>
>>>
>>> How does Durrell use these two terms?  The first usage of *Corcyra* appears
>>> in his subtitle:  ?the island of Corcyra.?  The first usage of *Corfu* appears
>>> in the first sentence of his text:  ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corfu
>>> the blue really begins.?  (Note:  he does not say, ?Somewhere between
>>> Calabria and Corcyra.?)  He uses *Corfu* more often than *Corcyra*,
>>> according to my digital version of *PC.  *This suggests to me that
>>> *Corfu* is the unmarked or normal term in Durrell?s vocabulary.  The
>>> terms may be interchangeable, although I doubt this.  I?m tempted to say
>>> that Durrell uses *Corcyra* for some special effect, but that would
>>> require a more detailed reading than I?m willing to give at the moment.
>>>
>>> I use the Open Road digital version of Durrell?s works.  I do not trust
>>> this publisher.  Open Road has made changes to Durrell?s text, presumably
>>> to make it appeal to the contemporary reader.  A major change occurs in the
>>> subtitle:  ?the island of Corfu,? not ?Corcyra.?  I think this important?it
>>> violates Durrell?s intent.
>>>
>>> Richard Pine asks the question, ?Can you explain why you
>>> think ?Corcyra? is less common than 'Corfu' or 'Kerkyra'?  Why is it
>>> signal??  Although I do not know Greek, I think the answer lies in the
>>> context and the frequency of Durrell?s usage.  The obvious question so far
>>> unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  To repeat, the
>>> Wikipedia etymology suggests to me that *Corcyra* is the archaic term
>>> and as such evokes a special effect immediately announced in the subtitle
>>> of *Prospero?s Cell,* which is exactly why Open Road chose
>>> (egregiously) to change it.  That is, the modern reader might be put off by
>>> exotic allusions.  My explanation is that Durrell is using *Corcyra* to
>>> hearken back to a particular kind of travel literature.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 13 17:04:24 2016
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 17:04:24 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
In-Reply-To: <CAEVum0K_PJyCnHyUZUbGSvORDkDCtAgLdNWm77+GfF8_uRtEYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <99C7BDCA-46D3-4F39-8BF6-718CB0A5EB0F@gmail.com>
	<DE142D17-EC30-4356-A6C9-583DE6075342@gmail.com>
	<CAFcAaFcpwU6_Pz2Sb98Cth29rHgsdOf2JjiUW7PbDsxx343kYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<7BA88C47-3A36-4050-A7E0-CCE151349938@earthlink.net>
	<CAEVum0+Kh0yGu2BSmNKqA70TARvhp6UEhd+BKeCsGywTuDwouw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BE7DEE56-E2F0-4B6F-A16D-EBC80B5BAF8D@earthlink.net>
	<CAEVum0K_PJyCnHyUZUbGSvORDkDCtAgLdNWm77+GfF8_uRtEYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FC3DBC31-5E35-4DA7-82FF-C9FF007AA498@earthlink.net>

Okay about the Corfiots not being ?insulted.?  My apologies.  But I?ll stick to a purely linguistic interpretation of how place names (as a rule) become transliterated from language to language.  I do not see ?cultural differences? as being a factor in this kind of linguistics.  ?Cultural differences? suggests to me, anyway, some kind of cultural bias or, at worse, some kind of cultural imperialism, the kind which Edward W. Said is famous for interpreting as a major sin of the West?the British, the French, and the Americans, in particular.   I assume this is what you?re implying by referring to the ?udder sound? of ?Mos-cow.?  There are purely linguistic reasons for Beijing/Peking, Kolkotta/Calcutta, and Mumbai/Bombay?and these I strongly doubt have anything to do with some kind of original prejudice (in the sense of the original adaptation into the Latin alphabet), if you will.  ?Decolonization? has a lot to do with these phonological changes, but that should not reflect on the original choice of the place names?they were not, in my opinion, exploitative.  But there are exceptions, of course, where one culture imposes (?) a name on a foreign one.  The name for the land of Egypt is derived from the Greek Aigyptos, the Greek name for the city of Memphis.  The ancient ?Egyptians? themselves referred to their land as Khem or Khemet (?the black land?).  Egypt has stuck, however, and doesn?t seem to bother today?s ?Egyptians.?  I don?t see a movement for the renaming of Egypt and its Egyptians as the Land of Khem and its Khemians.  Undoubtedly, there are more such examples.

Bruce





> On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:31 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I did not suggest that referring to kerkyra as Corfu was insulting. The Corfiots do it all the time.
> But the 'linguistic' or 'phonetic' differences betray cultural differences which can sometimes be annoying.
> Moskva becomes Mos-coe becomes (for Americans) Mos-cow (an udder sound) - is it really so diffficult?
> We have all had to re-educate ourselves to say 'Beijing' instead of 'Peking', 'kolkotta' for 'Calcutta' and Mumbai for Bombay. This is de-colonialism and I suppose most people would welcome it.
> Ethiopia
> RP
> 
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
> There are linguistic reasons for differences in the spelling and pronunciation of place names between languages, the main one being phonetic or phonological differences.  So German Wien becomes English Vienna simply because the English spelling conforms to the German pronunciation (where the /a/ comes from is another matter).  By and large, I do not interpret the differences as examples of colonialism, imperialism, ethnocentrism, or even xenophobia (a good Greek word which the Greeks invented and used).  As to Kerkyra v. Corfu, the former is Greek and the latter apparently Byzantine Greek (as Durrell points out in his etymology below).  How we English-speakers (and presumably others) have adopted Corfu instead of Kerkyra is a historical problem?and not, I think, a deliberate insult to the Corfiots.  The English and French languages have been pretty good at respecting indigenous terms?for example, Canada, Quebec, Michigan, Nebraska, and so on.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 1:11 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com <mailto:pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I don't think we should be surprised that Greeks refer to 'Corfu' as 'Kerkyra' - it's the name of the place! And Corfiots (not Corfiotes, please, that's a C17 term that's out of use) actually live in Kerkyra. it's damned annoying for the rest of us that the Austrians insist on living in Wien, when we all know they live in Vienna, and even worse that the Swiss want to be in Genf. Don't we all wish that locals would learn that it is WE who decide on their placenames? Where would everyone be if locals were allowed to choose their own identity!
>> RP
>> 
>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>> Thanks, Richard.  Modern Greek Kerkyra preserves ancient Greek ??????? (Liddell and Scott).  So it may be that Durrell chose to honor this usage and this past, which seem to be lost on contemporary readers.  I mentioned before Open Road?s alteration of Durrell?s subtitle??Corcyra? becomes ?Corfu.?  Something similar happens in Ian MacNiven?s edition of Prospero?s Cell (New York:  Marlowe, 1996).  MacNiven does not change Durrell?s subtitle, but the publisher alters the title on the book?s cover:  Prospero?s Cell:  A Guide to the Landscape and Manners of the Island of Corfu.  Durrell?s use of Corcyra is akin to Robert Byron?s use of Oxiana in The Road to Oxiana (1937), which Durrell probably read, I?m guessing.  Oxiana refers to the country around the Oxus River in Central Asia, now called the Amu.  Oxus is exotic, obscure even, unless one recalls Arnold ?Sohrab and Rustum.?  Byron?s famous book develops through a series of dated diary entries (Venice is the first?echoes of Bitter Lemons?).  Durrell may have followed this pattern and then varied it.
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:24 PM, james Esposito <giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com <mailto:giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  
>>> The answer: Kerkyra
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:34 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com <mailto:bredwine1968 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> James, I previously addressed this email wrong.  Please post of list.  Thanks.
>>> 
>>> Bruce
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>> 
>>>> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com <mailto:bredwine1968 at gmail.com>>
>>>> Subject: Corcyra v. Corfu
>>>> Date: September 11, 2016 at 2:22:15 PM PDT
>>>> To: Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com <mailto:sumantranag at gmail.com>>
>>>> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>>
>>>> 
>>>> Re Prospero?s Cell, it might be worthwhile to look carefully at Durrell?s use of Corcyra as opposed to Corfu.  First a little pedantry.
>>>> 
>>>> 1.  The OED 2nd does not have a separate entry for either Corcyra or Corfu.  The former is not mentioned; the latter?defined as ?the Greek island of Corfu??is noted under ?Corfiote.?
>>>> 
>>>> 2.  Wikipedia has the following:  Corfu (/k??r?fu?,?-fju?/ <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English>; Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>: ???????, K?rkyra [?cercira] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Greek>; Ancient?Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: ??????? or ???????; Latin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language>: Corcyra; Italian <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language>: Corfu).  This etymology, which I assume is correct, suggests that Corcyra is a transliteration of the older term in ancient Greek, whereas Corfu derives from modern Italian or some dialect of the same.  (How cyra becomes fu is an interesting problem in historical linguistics.)
>>>> 
>>>> 3.  Durrell himself provides the following etymologies of Corfu and Corcyra:  ?2.10.37.  The literati of ?the Partridge? have spent a great deal of time upon the etymological derivation of the word ?Corfu.?  The current explanation that the Byzantine use of the word was related in some way to k?pu??? (meaning twin-peaked) is not entirely acceptable to Zarian though Theodore?s more exacting scholarship appears to accept the idea.  Any modern Greek dictionary will list k?p?os which means ?gulf?; while research into the word Corcyra will give you the following k?pkos: (a tail, a handle);  k?pkoupos (a fish); and  kepis (a weaver?s comb, a leg bone, a fiddle bow).?  (p. 70; Greek orthography approximate)
>>>> 
>>>> How does Durrell use these two terms?  The first usage of Corcyra appears in his subtitle:  ?the island of Corcyra.?  The first usage of Corfu appears in the first sentence of his text:  ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corfu the blue really begins.?  (Note:  he does not say, ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corcyra.?)  He uses Corfu more often than Corcyra, according to my digital version of PC.  This suggests to me that Corfu is the unmarked or normal term in Durrell?s vocabulary.  The terms may be interchangeable, although I doubt this.  I?m tempted to say that Durrell uses Corcyra for some special effect, but that would require a more detailed reading than I?m willing to give at the moment.
>>>> 
>>>> I use the Open Road digital version of Durrell?s works.  I do not trust this publisher.  Open Road has made changes to Durrell?s text, presumably to make it appeal to the contemporary reader.  A major change occurs in the subtitle:  ?the island of Corfu,? not ?Corcyra.?  I think this important?it violates Durrell?s intent.
>>>> 
>>>> Richard Pine asks the question, ?Can you explain why you think ?Corcyra? is less common than 'Corfu' or 'Kerkyra'?  Why is it signal??  Although I do not know Greek, I think the answer lies in the context and the frequency of Durrell?s usage.  The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  To repeat, the Wikipedia etymology suggests to me that Corcyra is the archaic term and as such evokes a special effect immediately announced in the subtitle of Prospero?s Cell, which is exactly why Open Road chose (egregiously) to change it.  That is, the modern reader might be put off by exotic allusions.  My explanation is that Durrell is using Corcyra to hearken back to a particular kind of travel literature.
>>>> 
>>>> Bruce
>>>> 

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From james.d.gifford at gmail.com  Tue Sep 13 20:23:10 2016
From: james.d.gifford at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 20:23:10 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Fronts of Modernity: The 20th-Century Collections at the
 University of Victoria Libraries
Message-ID: <d85302b1-cf28-f5f0-fb75-a2ea9969400c@gmail.com>

Dear all,

I'm delighted to announce a new collection from the University of 
Victoria Libraries that showcases their collections, including the 
Durrell holdings (among several others to give him good company!):

Huculak, J. Matthew. /Fronts of Modernity: The 20th-Century Collections 
at the University of Victoria Libraries/. Victoria, BC: University of 
Victoria Libraries, 2016.

http://www.uvic.ca/library/about/ul/publications/UVic%20Library%202016%20FOM%20book%20WEB.pdf

The project is available in print in a limited print run (1,000 copies) 
and for free download at the link above.  The Durrell section is on pp. 
52?59.

All best,
James

From pan.gero at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 13 22:56:57 2016
From: pan.gero at hotmail.com (Panaiotis Gerontopoulos)
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 05:56:57 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
In-Reply-To: <FC3DBC31-5E35-4DA7-82FF-C9FF007AA498@earthlink.net>
References: <99C7BDCA-46D3-4F39-8BF6-718CB0A5EB0F@gmail.com>
	<DE142D17-EC30-4356-A6C9-583DE6075342@gmail.com>
	<CAFcAaFcpwU6_Pz2Sb98Cth29rHgsdOf2JjiUW7PbDsxx343kYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<7BA88C47-3A36-4050-A7E0-CCE151349938@earthlink.net>
	<CAEVum0+Kh0yGu2BSmNKqA70TARvhp6UEhd+BKeCsGywTuDwouw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BE7DEE56-E2F0-4B6F-A16D-EBC80B5BAF8D@earthlink.net>
	<CAEVum0K_PJyCnHyUZUbGSvORDkDCtAgLdNWm77+GfF8_uRtEYA@mail.gmail.com>,
	<FC3DBC31-5E35-4DA7-82FF-C9FF007AA498@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DBXPR07MB2885D4CF45137DEE51D315381F10@DBXPR07MB288.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>

Before the creation of an independent Greek Kingdom and the arrival of the Bavarian King Otto, the Corfiots  would call themselves Corfiots and their island Corfi (??????). After some time,  as happened  to most Greek toponyms used during Turkish occupation, the name has been changed (administratively)  to Kerkyra (???????) evoking the ancient  Corcyra (???????) and stressing the continuity between Ancient and Modern Greece.  Most probably Durrell decided for Corcyra for poetic or rhetoric reasons, or both.


P.G.

________________________________
From: ILDS <ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca> on behalf of Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 3:04:24 AM
To: Sumantra Nag
Cc: Bruce Redwine
Subject: Re: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu

Okay about the Corfiots not being ?insulted.?  My apologies.  But I?ll stick to a purely linguistic interpretation of how place names (as a rule) become transliterated from language to language.  I do not see ?cultural differences? as being a factor in this kind of linguistics.  ?Cultural differences? suggests to me, anyway, some kind of cultural bias or, at worse, some kind of cultural imperialism, the kind which Edward W. Said is famous for interpreting as a major sin of the West?the British, the French, and the Americans, in particular.   I assume this is what you?re implying by referring to the ?udder sound? of ?Mos-cow.?  There are purely linguistic reasons for Beijing/Peking, Kolkotta/Calcutta, and Mumbai/Bombay?and these I strongly doubt have anything to do with some kind of original prejudice (in the sense of the original adaptation into the Latin alphabet), if you will.  ?Decolonization? has a lot to do with these phonological changes, but that should not reflect on the original choice of the place names?they were not, in my opinion, exploitative.  But there are exceptions, of course, where one culture imposes (?) a name on a foreign one.  The name for the land of Egypt is derived from the Greek Aigyptos, the Greek name for the city of Memphis.  The ancient ?Egyptians? themselves referred to their land as Khem or Khemet (?the black land?).  Egypt has stuck, however, and doesn?t seem to bother today?s ?Egyptians.?  I don?t see a movement for the renaming of Egypt and its Egyptians as the Land of Khem and its Khemians.  Undoubtedly, there are more such examples.

Bruce





On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:31 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com<mailto:pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>> wrote:

I did not suggest that referring to kerkyra as Corfu was insulting. The Corfiots do it all the time.
But the 'linguistic' or 'phonetic' differences betray cultural differences which can sometimes be annoying.
Moskva becomes Mos-coe becomes (for Americans) Mos-cow (an udder sound) - is it really so diffficult?
We have all had to re-educate ourselves to say 'Beijing' instead of 'Peking', 'kolkotta' for 'Calcutta' and Mumbai for Bombay. This is de-colonialism and I suppose most people would welcome it.
Ethiopia
RP

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net<mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
There are linguistic reasons for differences in the spelling and pronunciation of place names between languages, the main one being phonetic or phonological differences.  So German Wien becomes English Vienna simply because the English spelling conforms to the German pronunciation (where the /a/ comes from is another matter).  By and large, I do not interpret the differences as examples of colonialism, imperialism, ethnocentrism, or even xenophobia (a good Greek word which the Greeks invented and used).  As to Kerkyra v. Corfu, the former is Greek and the latter apparently Byzantine Greek (as Durrell points out in his etymology below).  How we English-speakers (and presumably others) have adopted Corfu instead of Kerkyra is a historical problem?and not, I think, a deliberate insult to the Corfiots.  The English and French languages have been pretty good at respecting indigenous terms?for example, Canada, Quebec, Michigan, Nebraska, and so on.

Bruce





On Sep 13, 2016, at 1:11 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com<mailto:pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>> wrote:

I don't think we should be surprised that Greeks refer to 'Corfu' as 'Kerkyra' - it's the name of the place! And Corfiots (not Corfiotes, please, that's a C17 term that's out of use) actually live in Kerkyra. it's damned annoying for the rest of us that the Austrians insist on living in Wien, when we all know they live in Vienna, and even worse that the Swiss want to be in Genf. Don't we all wish that locals would learn that it is WE who decide on their placenames? Where would everyone be if locals were allowed to choose their own identity!
RP

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net<mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
Thanks, Richard.  Modern Greek Kerkyra preserves ancient Greek ??????? (Liddell and Scott).  So it may be that Durrell chose to honor this usage and this past, which seem to be lost on contemporary readers.  I mentioned before Open Road?s alteration of Durrell?s subtitle??Corcyra? becomes ?Corfu.?  Something similar happens in Ian MacNiven?s edition of Prospero?s Cell (New York:  Marlowe, 1996).  MacNiven does not change Durrell?s subtitle, but the publisher alters the title on the book?s cover:  Prospero?s Cell:  A Guide to the Landscape and Manners of the Island of Corfu.  Durrell?s use of Corcyra is akin to Robert Byron?s use of Oxiana in The Road to Oxiana (1937), which Durrell probably read, I?m guessing.  Oxiana refers to the country around the Oxus River in Central Asia, now called the Amu.  Oxus is exotic, obscure even, unless one recalls Arnold ?Sohrab and Rustum.?  Byron?s famous book develops through a series of dated diary entries (Venice is the first?echoes of Bitter Lemons?).  Durrell may have followed this pattern and then varied it.

Bruce





On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:24 PM, james Esposito <giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com<mailto:giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com>> wrote:

The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?
The answer: Kerkyra

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:34 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com<mailto:bredwine1968 at gmail.com>> wrote:
James, I previously addressed this email wrong.  Please post of list.  Thanks.

Bruce



Begin forwarded message:

From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com<mailto:bredwine1968 at gmail.com>>
Subject: Corcyra v. Corfu
Date: September 11, 2016 at 2:22:15 PM PDT
To: Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com<mailto:sumantranag at gmail.com>>
Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net<mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>>

Re Prospero?s Cell, it might be worthwhile to look carefully at Durrell?s use of Corcyra as opposed to Corfu.  First a little pedantry.

1.  The OED 2nd does not have a separate entry for either Corcyra or Corfu.  The former is not mentioned; the latter?defined as ?the Greek island of Corfu??is noted under ?Corfiote.?

2.  Wikipedia has the following:  Corfu (/k??r?fu?, -fju?/<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English>; Greek<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>: ???????, K?rkyra [?cercira]<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Greek>; Ancient Greek<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: ??????? or ???????; Latin<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language>: Corcyra; Italian<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language>: Corfu).  This etymology, which I assume is correct, suggests that Corcyra is a transliteration of the older term in ancient Greek, whereas Corfu derives from modern Italian or some dialect of the same.  (How cyra becomes fu is an interesting problem in historical linguistics.)

3.  Durrell himself provides the following etymologies of Corfu and Corcyra:  ?2.10.37.  The literati of ?the Partridge? have spent a great deal of time upon the etymological derivation of the word ?Corfu.?  The current explanation that the Byzantine use of the word was related in some way to k?pu??? (meaning twin-peaked) is not entirely acceptable to Zarian though Theodore?s more exacting scholarship appears to accept the idea.  Any modern Greek dictionary will list k?p?os which means ?gulf?; while research into the word Corcyra will give you the following k?pkos: (a tail, a handle);  k?pkoupos (a fish); and  kepis (a weaver?s comb, a leg bone, a fiddle bow).?  (p. 70; Greek orthography approximate)

How does Durrell use these two terms?  The first usage of Corcyra appears in his subtitle:  ?the island of Corcyra.?  The first usage of Corfu appears in the first sentence of his text:  ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corfu the blue really begins.?  (Note:  he does not say, ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corcyra.?)  He uses Corfu more often than Corcyra, according to my digital version of PC.  This suggests to me that Corfu is the unmarked or normal term in Durrell?s vocabulary.  The terms may be interchangeable, although I doubt this.  I?m tempted to say that Durrell uses Corcyra for some special effect, but that would require a more detailed reading than I?m willing to give at the moment.

I use the Open Road digital version of Durrell?s works.  I do not trust this publisher.  Open Road has made changes to Durrell?s text, presumably to make it appeal to the contemporary reader.  A major change occurs in the subtitle:  ?the island of Corfu,? not ?Corcyra.?  I think this important?it violates Durrell?s intent.

Richard Pine asks the question, ?Can you explain why you think ?Corcyra? is less common than 'Corfu' or 'Kerkyra'?  Why is it signal??  Although I do not know Greek, I think the answer lies in the context and the frequency of Durrell?s usage.  The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  To repeat, the Wikipedia etymology suggests to me that Corcyra is the archaic term and as such evokes a special effect immediately announced in the subtitle of Prospero?s Cell, which is exactly why Open Road chose (egregiously) to change it.  That is, the modern reader might be put off by exotic allusions.  My explanation is that Durrell is using Corcyra to hearken back to a particular kind of travel literature.

Bruce


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From pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com  Tue Sep 13 23:49:42 2016
From: pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com (Richard Pine)
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 09:49:42 +0300
Subject: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
In-Reply-To: <FC3DBC31-5E35-4DA7-82FF-C9FF007AA498@earthlink.net>
References: <99C7BDCA-46D3-4F39-8BF6-718CB0A5EB0F@gmail.com>
	<DE142D17-EC30-4356-A6C9-583DE6075342@gmail.com>
	<CAFcAaFcpwU6_Pz2Sb98Cth29rHgsdOf2JjiUW7PbDsxx343kYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<7BA88C47-3A36-4050-A7E0-CCE151349938@earthlink.net>
	<CAEVum0+Kh0yGu2BSmNKqA70TARvhp6UEhd+BKeCsGywTuDwouw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BE7DEE56-E2F0-4B6F-A16D-EBC80B5BAF8D@earthlink.net>
	<CAEVum0K_PJyCnHyUZUbGSvORDkDCtAgLdNWm77+GfF8_uRtEYA@mail.gmail.com>
	<FC3DBC31-5E35-4DA7-82FF-C9FF007AA498@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAEVum0JLvA4Z7oA81HO7H8yuGF3w4zpqozxQhdxTubRHhwUGMg@mail.gmail.com>

Why are you apologising? No need.
I bet there are fundamentalists demanding, through their fundament, a
change from Egypt to Khemia or some such. You have probably started
something.
I think a lot of the 'western' names given to 'eastern' places are due to
hearing difficulties - phonological if you will, in the sense that logic
applied different results to phono.
I knew an English boy who would not say the Irish pro-name 'Proinnsias' -
the irish for Francis -  (approx pronunciation 'Pron-she-as' - so he said
'Poncho', and his parents allowed him to do so. The child was perfectly
capable of saying the name correctly. I suspect that many 'westernised'
placenames originated because some explorer turned to his companion and
said 'I can't understand a word these coons are saying, Fitzherbert - let's
call it Swaziland' 'Oh golly good show Carruthers, I'll mark that down on
the map'.
Ethiopia
RP

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 3:04 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
wrote:

> Okay about the Corfiots not being ?insulted.?  My apologies.  But I?ll
> stick to a purely linguistic interpretation of how place names (as a rule)
> become transliterated from language to language.  I do not see ?cultural
> differences? as being a factor in this kind of linguistics.  ?Cultural
> differences? suggests to me, anyway, some kind of cultural bias or, at
> worse, some kind of cultural imperialism, the kind which Edward W. Said is
> famous for interpreting as a major sin of the West?the British, the French,
> and the Americans, in particular.   I assume this is what you?re implying
> by referring to the ?udder sound? of ?Mos-cow.?  There are purely
> linguistic reasons for Beijing/Peking, Kolkotta/Calcutta, and
> Mumbai/Bombay?and these I strongly doubt have anything to do with some kind
> of original prejudice (in the sense of the original adaptation into the
> Latin alphabet), if you will.  ?Decolonization? has a lot to do with these
> phonological changes, but that should not reflect on the original choice of
> the place names?they were not, in my opinion, exploitative.  But there are
> exceptions, of course, where one culture imposes (?) a name on a foreign
> one.  The name for the land of Egypt is derived from the Greek *Aigyptos,*
> the Greek name for the city of Memphis.  The ancient ?Egyptians? themselves
> referred to their land as *Khem* or *Khemet* (?the black land?).  *Egypt*
> has stuck, however, and doesn?t seem to bother today?s ?Egyptians.?  I
> don?t see a movement for the renaming of Egypt and its Egyptians as the
> Land of Khem and its Khemians.  Undoubtedly, there are more such examples.
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:31 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I did not suggest that referring to kerkyra as Corfu was insulting. The
> Corfiots do it all the time.
> But the 'linguistic' or 'phonetic' differences betray cultural differences
> which can sometimes be annoying.
> Moskva becomes Mos-coe becomes (for Americans) Mos-cow (an udder sound) -
> is it really so diffficult?
> We have all had to re-educate ourselves to say 'Beijing' instead of
> 'Peking', 'kolkotta' for 'Calcutta' and Mumbai for Bombay. This is
> de-colonialism and I suppose most people would welcome it.
> Ethiopia
> RP
>
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
> > wrote:
>
>> There are linguistic reasons for differences in the spelling and
>> pronunciation of place names between languages, the main one being phonetic
>> or phonological differences.  So German *Wien* becomes English *Vienna*
>> simply because the English spelling conforms to the German pronunciation
>> (where the /a/ comes from is another matter).  By and large, I do not
>> interpret the differences as examples of colonialism, imperialism,
>> ethnocentrism, or even xenophobia (a good Greek word which the Greeks
>> invented and used).  As to *Kerkyra* v. *Corfu*, the former is Greek and
>> the latter apparently Byzantine Greek (as Durrell points out in his
>> etymology below).  How we English-speakers (and presumably others) have
>> adopted *Corfu* instead of *Kerkyra* is a historical problem?and not, I
>> think, a deliberate insult to the Corfiots.  The English and French
>> languages have been pretty good at respecting indigenous terms?for example,
>> Canada, Quebec, Michigan, Nebraska, and so on.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 1:11 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I don't think we should be surprised that Greeks refer to 'Corfu' as
>> 'Kerkyra' - it's the name of the place! And Corfiots (not Corfiotes,
>> please, that's a C17 term that's out of use) actually live in Kerkyra. it's
>> damned annoying for the rest of us that the Austrians insist on living in
>> Wien, when we all know they live in Vienna, and even worse that the Swiss
>> want to be in Genf. Don't we all wish that locals would learn that it is WE
>> who decide on their placenames? Where would everyone be if locals were
>> allowed to choose their own identity!
>> RP
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Bruce Redwine <
>> bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks, Richard.  Modern Greek *Kerkyra* preserves ancient Greek *???????
>>> *(Liddell and Scott).  So it may be that Durrell chose to honor this
>>> usage and this past, which seem to be lost on contemporary readers.  I
>>> mentioned before Open Road?s alteration of Durrell?s subtitle??Corcyra?
>>> becomes ?Corfu.?  Something similar happens in Ian MacNiven?s edition of *Prospero?s
>>> Cell* (New York:  Marlowe, 1996).  MacNiven does not change Durrell?s
>>> subtitle, but the publisher alters the title on the book?s cover:  *Prospero?s
>>> Cell:  A Guide to the Landscape and Manners of the Island of Corfu.  *Durrell?s
>>> use of *Corcyra* is akin to Robert Byron?s use of *Oxiana* in *The Road
>>> to Oxiana* (1937), which Durrell probably read, I?m guessing.  *Oxiana*
>>> refers to the country around the Oxus River in Central Asia, now called the
>>> Amu.  *Oxus* is exotic, obscure even, unless one recalls Arnold ?Sohrab
>>> and Rustum.?  Byron?s famous book develops through a series of dated diary
>>> entries (Venice is the first?echoes of *Bitter Lemons?).*  Durrell may
>>> have followed this pattern and then varied it.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:24 PM, james Esposito <
>>> giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to
>>> their island?
>>> The answer: Kerkyra
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:34 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> James, I previously addressed this email wrong.  Please post of list.
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>
>>>> *From: *Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com>
>>>> *Subject: **Corcyra v. Corfu*
>>>> *Date: *September 11, 2016 at 2:22:15 PM PDT
>>>> *To: *Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com>
>>>> *Cc: *Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>>
>>>> Re *Prospero?s Cell,* it might be worthwhile to look carefully at
>>>> Durrell?s use of *Corcyra* as opposed to *Corfu.*  First a little
>>>> pedantry.
>>>>
>>>> 1.  The *OED* 2nd does not have a separate entry for either *Corcyra*
>>>> or *Corfu.*  The former is not mentioned; the latter?defined as ?the
>>>> Greek island of Corfu??is noted under ?Corfiote.?
>>>>
>>>> 2.  Wikipedia has the following:  *Corfu* (/k??r?fu?, -fju?/
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English>; Greek
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>: ???????, *K?rkyra*
>>>> [?cercira] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Greek>;
>>>> Ancient Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: ???????
>>>> or ???????; Latin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language>:
>>>> *Corcyra*; Italian <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language>:
>>>> *Corfu*).  This etymology, which I assume is correct, suggests that
>>>> *Corcyra* is a transliteration of the older term in ancient Greek,
>>>> whereas *Corfu* derives from modern Italian or some dialect of the
>>>> same.  (How *cyra* becomes *fu* is an interesting problem
>>>> in historical linguistics.)
>>>>
>>>> 3.  Durrell himself provides the following etymologies of *Corfu *and
>>>> *Corcyra:*  ?2.10.37.  The literati of ?the Partridge? have spent a
>>>> great deal of time upon the etymological derivation of the
>>>> word ?Corfu.?  The current explanation that the Byzantine use of the word
>>>> was related in some way to *k?pu???* (meaning twin-peaked) is not
>>>> entirely acceptable to Zarian though Theodore?s more exacting scholarship
>>>> appears to accept the idea.  Any modern Greek dictionary will list
>>>> *k?p?os* which means ?gulf?; while research into the word Corcyra will
>>>> give you the following *k?pkos*: (a tail, a handle);  *k?pkoupos* (a
>>>> fish); and  *kepis* (a weaver?s comb, a leg bone, a fiddle bow).?  (p.
>>>> 70; Greek orthography approximate)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How does Durrell use these two terms?  The first usage of *Corcyra* appears
>>>> in his subtitle:  ?the island of Corcyra.?  The first usage of *Corfu* appears
>>>> in the first sentence of his text:  ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corfu
>>>> the blue really begins.?  (Note:  he does not say, ?Somewhere between
>>>> Calabria and Corcyra.?)  He uses *Corfu* more often than *Corcyra*,
>>>> according to my digital version of *PC.  *This suggests to me that
>>>> *Corfu* is the unmarked or normal term in Durrell?s vocabulary.  The
>>>> terms may be interchangeable, although I doubt this.  I?m tempted to say
>>>> that Durrell uses *Corcyra* for some special effect, but that would
>>>> require a more detailed reading than I?m willing to give at the moment.
>>>>
>>>> I use the Open Road digital version of Durrell?s works.  I do not trust
>>>> this publisher.  Open Road has made changes to Durrell?s text, presumably
>>>> to make it appeal to the contemporary reader.  A major change occurs in the
>>>> subtitle:  ?the island of Corfu,? not ?Corcyra.?  I think this important?it
>>>> violates Durrell?s intent.
>>>>
>>>> Richard Pine asks the question, ?Can you explain why you
>>>> think ?Corcyra? is less common than 'Corfu' or 'Kerkyra'?  Why is it
>>>> signal??  Although I do not know Greek, I think the answer lies in the
>>>> context and the frequency of Durrell?s usage.  The obvious question so far
>>>> unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  To repeat, the
>>>> Wikipedia etymology suggests to me that *Corcyra* is the archaic term
>>>> and as such evokes a special effect immediately announced in the subtitle
>>>> of *Prospero?s Cell,* which is exactly why Open Road chose
>>>> (egregiously) to change it.  That is, the modern reader might be put off by
>>>> exotic allusions.  My explanation is that Durrell is using *Corcyra*
>>>> to hearken back to a particular kind of travel literature.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
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From pan.gero at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 14 07:46:23 2016
From: pan.gero at hotmail.com (Panaiotis Gerontopoulos)
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 14:46:23 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
In-Reply-To: <CAEVum0JLvA4Z7oA81HO7H8yuGF3w4zpqozxQhdxTubRHhwUGMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <99C7BDCA-46D3-4F39-8BF6-718CB0A5EB0F@gmail.com>
	<DE142D17-EC30-4356-A6C9-583DE6075342@gmail.com>
	<CAFcAaFcpwU6_Pz2Sb98Cth29rHgsdOf2JjiUW7PbDsxx343kYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<7BA88C47-3A36-4050-A7E0-CCE151349938@earthlink.net>
	<CAEVum0+Kh0yGu2BSmNKqA70TARvhp6UEhd+BKeCsGywTuDwouw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BE7DEE56-E2F0-4B6F-A16D-EBC80B5BAF8D@earthlink.net>
	<CAEVum0K_PJyCnHyUZUbGSvORDkDCtAgLdNWm77+GfF8_uRtEYA@mail.gmail.com>
	<FC3DBC31-5E35-4DA7-82FF-C9FF007AA498@earthlink.net>,
	<CAEVum0JLvA4Z7oA81HO7H8yuGF3w4zpqozxQhdxTubRHhwUGMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DBXPR07MB28893DBE70CF058D3947A1281F10@DBXPR07MB288.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>

I didn't apologize, and I don't see why should I apologize and for what. All I wanted was to facilitate this long  discussion pointing to attention to non-Greek participants elementary  information contained in any Greek encyclopedia. I live in Edipsos near Istiaia (???????) known in the past as  Xirochori (????????) renamed for the very same reasons described in my post. The same happened to many other Greek toponyms: Vostizza-Aigion , Salona-Amfissa, Zituni-Lamia, Tsirigo-Kythira, Candia-Iraklion, etc. etc. Ask any Corfiot-Kerkyreos friend. As for fundamentalists, Egypt-Khemia, and my hypothetical terroristic  plans   ask CIA. The only question that remains to be discussed, if any, is why Durrell chose Corcyra for a  novel taking place in modern Corfu.


P.G.

________________________________
From: ILDS <ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca> on behalf of Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 9:49:42 AM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Subject: Re: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu

Why are you apologising? No need.
I bet there are fundamentalists demanding, through their fundament, a change from Egypt to Khemia or some such. You have probably started something.
I think a lot of the 'western' names given to 'eastern' places are due to hearing difficulties - phonological if you will, in the sense that logic applied different results to phono.
I knew an English boy who would not say the Irish pro-name 'Proinnsias' - the irish for Francis -  (approx pronunciation 'Pron-she-as' - so he said 'Poncho', and his parents allowed him to do so. The child was perfectly capable of saying the name correctly. I suspect that many 'westernised' placenames originated because some explorer turned to his companion and said 'I can't understand a word these coons are saying, Fitzherbert - let's call it Swaziland' 'Oh golly good show Carruthers, I'll mark that down on the map'.
Ethiopia
RP

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 3:04 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net<mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
Okay about the Corfiots not being ?insulted.?  My apologies.  But I?ll stick to a purely linguistic interpretation of how place names (as a rule) become transliterated from language to language.  I do not see ?cultural differences? as being a factor in this kind of linguistics.  ?Cultural differences? suggests to me, anyway, some kind of cultural bias or, at worse, some kind of cultural imperialism, the kind which Edward W. Said is famous for interpreting as a major sin of the West?the British, the French, and the Americans, in particular.   I assume this is what you?re implying by referring to the ?udder sound? of ?Mos-cow.?  There are purely linguistic reasons for Beijing/Peking, Kolkotta/Calcutta, and Mumbai/Bombay?and these I strongly doubt have anything to do with some kind of original prejudice (in the sense of the original adaptation into the Latin alphabet), if you will.  ?Decolonization? has a lot to do with these phonological changes, but that should not reflect on the original choice of the place names?they were not, in my opinion, exploitative.  But there are exceptions, of course, where one culture imposes (?) a name on a foreign one.  The name for the land of Egypt is derived from the Greek Aigyptos, the Greek name for the city of Memphis.  The ancient ?Egyptians? themselves referred to their land as Khem or Khemet (?the black land?).  Egypt has stuck, however, and doesn?t seem to bother today?s ?Egyptians.?  I don?t see a movement for the renaming of Egypt and its Egyptians as the Land of Khem and its Khemians.  Undoubtedly, there are more such examples.

Bruce






On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:31 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com<mailto:pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>> wrote:

I did not suggest that referring to kerkyra as Corfu was insulting. The Corfiots do it all the time.
But the 'linguistic' or 'phonetic' differences betray cultural differences which can sometimes be annoying.
Moskva becomes Mos-coe becomes (for Americans) Mos-cow (an udder sound) - is it really so diffficult?
We have all had to re-educate ourselves to say 'Beijing' instead of 'Peking', 'kolkotta' for 'Calcutta' and Mumbai for Bombay. This is de-colonialism and I suppose most people would welcome it.
Ethiopia
RP

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net<mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
There are linguistic reasons for differences in the spelling and pronunciation of place names between languages, the main one being phonetic or phonological differences.  So German Wien becomes English Vienna simply because the English spelling conforms to the German pronunciation (where the /a/ comes from is another matter).  By and large, I do not interpret the differences as examples of colonialism, imperialism, ethnocentrism, or even xenophobia (a good Greek word which the Greeks invented and used).  As to Kerkyra v. Corfu, the former is Greek and the latter apparently Byzantine Greek (as Durrell points out in his etymology below).  How we English-speakers (and presumably others) have adopted Corfu instead of Kerkyra is a historical problem?and not, I think, a deliberate insult to the Corfiots.  The English and French languages have been pretty good at respecting indigenous terms?for example, Canada, Quebec, Michigan, Nebraska, and so on.

Bruce





On Sep 13, 2016, at 1:11 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com<mailto:pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>> wrote:

I don't think we should be surprised that Greeks refer to 'Corfu' as 'Kerkyra' - it's the name of the place! And Corfiots (not Corfiotes, please, that's a C17 term that's out of use) actually live in Kerkyra. it's damned annoying for the rest of us that the Austrians insist on living in Wien, when we all know they live in Vienna, and even worse that the Swiss want to be in Genf. Don't we all wish that locals would learn that it is WE who decide on their placenames? Where would everyone be if locals were allowed to choose their own identity!
RP

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net<mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
Thanks, Richard.  Modern Greek Kerkyra preserves ancient Greek ??????? (Liddell and Scott).  So it may be that Durrell chose to honor this usage and this past, which seem to be lost on contemporary readers.  I mentioned before Open Road?s alteration of Durrell?s subtitle??Corcyra? becomes ?Corfu.?  Something similar happens in Ian MacNiven?s edition of Prospero?s Cell (New York:  Marlowe, 1996).  MacNiven does not change Durrell?s subtitle, but the publisher alters the title on the book?s cover:  Prospero?s Cell:  A Guide to the Landscape and Manners of the Island of Corfu.  Durrell?s use of Corcyra is akin to Robert Byron?s use of Oxiana in The Road to Oxiana (1937), which Durrell probably read, I?m guessing.  Oxiana refers to the country around the Oxus River in Central Asia, now called the Amu.  Oxus is exotic, obscure even, unless one recalls Arnold ?Sohrab and Rustum.?  Byron?s famous book develops through a series of dated diary entries (Venice is the first?echoes of Bitter Lemons?).  Durrell may have followed this pattern and then varied it.

Bruce





On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:24 PM, james Esposito <giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com<mailto:giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com>> wrote:

The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?
The answer: Kerkyra

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:34 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com<mailto:bredwine1968 at gmail.com>> wrote:
James, I previously addressed this email wrong.  Please post of list.  Thanks.

Bruce



Begin forwarded message:

From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com<mailto:bredwine1968 at gmail.com>>
Subject: Corcyra v. Corfu
Date: September 11, 2016 at 2:22:15 PM PDT
To: Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com<mailto:sumantranag at gmail.com>>
Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net<mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>>

Re Prospero?s Cell, it might be worthwhile to look carefully at Durrell?s use of Corcyra as opposed to Corfu.  First a little pedantry.

1.  The OED 2nd does not have a separate entry for either Corcyra or Corfu.  The former is not mentioned; the latter?defined as ?the Greek island of Corfu??is noted under ?Corfiote.?

2.  Wikipedia has the following:  Corfu (/k??r?fu?, -fju?/<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English>; Greek<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>: ???????, K?rkyra [?cercira]<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Greek>; Ancient Greek<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: ??????? or ???????; Latin<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language>: Corcyra; Italian<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language>: Corfu).  This etymology, which I assume is correct, suggests that Corcyra is a transliteration of the older term in ancient Greek, whereas Corfu derives from modern Italian or some dialect of the same.  (How cyra becomes fu is an interesting problem in historical linguistics.)

3.  Durrell himself provides the following etymologies of Corfu and Corcyra:  ?2.10.37.  The literati of ?the Partridge? have spent a great deal of time upon the etymological derivation of the word ?Corfu.?  The current explanation that the Byzantine use of the word was related in some way to k?pu??? (meaning twin-peaked) is not entirely acceptable to Zarian though Theodore?s more exacting scholarship appears to accept the idea.  Any modern Greek dictionary will list k?p?os which means ?gulf?; while research into the word Corcyra will give you the following k?pkos: (a tail, a handle);  k?pkoupos (a fish); and  kepis (a weaver?s comb, a leg bone, a fiddle bow).?  (p. 70; Greek orthography approximate)

How does Durrell use these two terms?  The first usage of Corcyra appears in his subtitle:  ?the island of Corcyra.?  The first usage of Corfu appears in the first sentence of his text:  ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corfu the blue really begins.?  (Note:  he does not say, ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corcyra.?)  He uses Corfu more often than Corcyra, according to my digital version of PC.  This suggests to me that Corfu is the unmarked or normal term in Durrell?s vocabulary.  The terms may be interchangeable, although I doubt this.  I?m tempted to say that Durrell uses Corcyra for some special effect, but that would require a more detailed reading than I?m willing to give at the moment.

I use the Open Road digital version of Durrell?s works.  I do not trust this publisher.  Open Road has made changes to Durrell?s text, presumably to make it appeal to the contemporary reader.  A major change occurs in the subtitle:  ?the island of Corfu,? not ?Corcyra.?  I think this important?it violates Durrell?s intent.

Richard Pine asks the question, ?Can you explain why you think ?Corcyra? is less common than 'Corfu' or 'Kerkyra'?  Why is it signal??  Although I do not know Greek, I think the answer lies in the context and the frequency of Durrell?s usage.  The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  To repeat, the Wikipedia etymology suggests to me that Corcyra is the archaic term and as such evokes a special effect immediately announced in the subtitle of Prospero?s Cell, which is exactly why Open Road chose (egregiously) to change it.  That is, the modern reader might be put off by exotic allusions.  My explanation is that Durrell is using Corcyra to hearken back to a particular kind of travel literature.

Bruce



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From pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com  Wed Sep 14 08:21:08 2016
From: pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com (Richard Pine)
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 18:21:08 +0300
Subject: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
In-Reply-To: <DBXPR07MB28893DBE70CF058D3947A1281F10@DBXPR07MB288.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
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	<CAEVum0JLvA4Z7oA81HO7H8yuGF3w4zpqozxQhdxTubRHhwUGMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<DBXPR07MB28893DBE70CF058D3947A1281F10@DBXPR07MB288.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAEVum0Ja8crKpgWLhbaYB_=_5dA2sLNqBjND5dcSZJvduZ7wfA@mail.gmail.com>

Mr Gerontopoulos you are yet again reading what isn't there - no one
suggested that you had anything to apologise for so the question does not
arise. And as far as we in Corfu are concerned, one doesn't write
'Corfiot-Kerkyreos' but 'Corfiot-Kerkiraikos'.
RP

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Panaiotis Gerontopoulos <
pan.gero at hotmail.com> wrote:

> I didn't apologize, and I don't see why should I apologize and for what.
> All I wanted was to facilitate this long  discussion pointing to attention
> to non-Greek participants elementary  information contained in any Greek
> encyclopedia. I live in Edipsos near Istiaia (???????) known in the past
> as  Xirochori (????????) renamed for the very same reasons described in my
> post. The same happened to many other Greek toponyms: Vostizza-Aigion
> , Salona-Amfissa, Zituni-Lamia, Tsirigo-Kythira, Candia-Iraklion, etc. etc.
> Ask any Corfiot-Kerkyreos friend. As for fundamentalists, Egypt-Khemia, and
> my hypothetical terroristic  plans   ask CIA. The only question that
> remains to be discussed, if any, is why Durrell chose Corcyra for a
> novel taking place in modern Corfu.
>
>
> P.G.
> ------------------------------
> *From:* ILDS <ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca> on behalf of Richard Pine <
> pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2016 9:49:42 AM
> *To:* ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> *Subject:* Re: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
>
> Why are you apologising? No need.
> I bet there are fundamentalists demanding, through their fundament, a
> change from Egypt to Khemia or some such. You have probably started
> something.
> I think a lot of the 'western' names given to 'eastern' places are due to
> hearing difficulties - phonological if you will, in the sense that logic
> applied different results to phono.
> I knew an English boy who would not say the Irish pro-name 'Proinnsias' -
> the irish for Francis -  (approx pronunciation 'Pron-she-as' - so he said
> 'Poncho', and his parents allowed him to do so. The child was perfectly
> capable of saying the name correctly. I suspect that many 'westernised'
> placenames originated because some explorer turned to his companion and
> said 'I can't understand a word these coons are saying, Fitzherbert - let's
> call it Swaziland' 'Oh golly good show Carruthers, I'll mark that down on
> the map'.
> Ethiopia
> RP
>
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 3:04 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
> > wrote:
>
>> Okay about the Corfiots not being ?insulted.?  My apologies.  But I?ll
>> stick to a purely linguistic interpretation of how place names (as a rule)
>> become transliterated from language to language.  I do not see ?cultural
>> differences? as being a factor in this kind of linguistics.  ?Cultural
>> differences? suggests to me, anyway, some kind of cultural bias or, at
>> worse, some kind of cultural imperialism, the kind which Edward W. Said is
>> famous for interpreting as a major sin of the West?the British, the French,
>> and the Americans, in particular.   I assume this is what you?re implying
>> by referring to the ?udder sound? of ?Mos-cow.?  There are purely
>> linguistic reasons for Beijing/Peking, Kolkotta/Calcutta, and
>> Mumbai/Bombay?and these I strongly doubt have anything to do with some kind
>> of original prejudice (in the sense of the original adaptation into the
>> Latin alphabet), if you will.  ?Decolonization? has a lot to do with these
>> phonological changes, but that should not reflect on the original choice of
>> the place names?they were not, in my opinion, exploitative.  But there are
>> exceptions, of course, where one culture imposes (?) a name on a foreign
>> one.  The name for the land of Egypt is derived from the Greek
>> *Aigyptos,* the Greek name for the city of Memphis.  The ancient
>> ?Egyptians? themselves referred to their land as *Khem* or *Khemet*
>> (?the black land?).  *Egypt* has stuck, however, and doesn?t seem to
>> bother today?s ?Egyptians.?  I don?t see a movement for the renaming of
>> Egypt and its Egyptians as the Land of Khem and its Khemians.  Undoubtedly,
>> there are more such examples.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:31 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I did not suggest that referring to kerkyra as Corfu was insulting. The
>> Corfiots do it all the time.
>> But the 'linguistic' or 'phonetic' differences betray cultural
>> differences which can sometimes be annoying.
>> Moskva becomes Mos-coe becomes (for Americans) Mos-cow (an udder sound) -
>> is it really so diffficult?
>> We have all had to re-educate ourselves to say 'Beijing' instead of
>> 'Peking', 'kolkotta' for 'Calcutta' and Mumbai for Bombay. This is
>> de-colonialism and I suppose most people would welcome it.
>> Ethiopia
>> RP
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Bruce Redwine <
>> bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> There are linguistic reasons for differences in the spelling and
>>> pronunciation of place names between languages, the main one being phonetic
>>> or phonological differences.  So German *Wien* becomes English *Vienna*
>>> simply because the English spelling conforms to the German pronunciation
>>> (where the /a/ comes from is another matter).  By and large, I do not
>>> interpret the differences as examples of colonialism, imperialism,
>>> ethnocentrism, or even xenophobia (a good Greek word which the Greeks
>>> invented and used).  As to *Kerkyra* v. *Corfu*, the former is Greek
>>> and the latter apparently Byzantine Greek (as Durrell points out in his
>>> etymology below).  How we English-speakers (and presumably others) have
>>> adopted *Corfu* instead of *Kerkyra* is a historical problem?and not, I
>>> think, a deliberate insult to the Corfiots.  The English and French
>>> languages have been pretty good at respecting indigenous terms?for example,
>>> Canada, Quebec, Michigan, Nebraska, and so on.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 1:11 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't think we should be surprised that Greeks refer to 'Corfu' as
>>> 'Kerkyra' - it's the name of the place! And Corfiots (not Corfiotes,
>>> please, that's a C17 term that's out of use) actually live in Kerkyra. it's
>>> damned annoying for the rest of us that the Austrians insist on living in
>>> Wien, when we all know they live in Vienna, and even worse that the Swiss
>>> want to be in Genf. Don't we all wish that locals would learn that it is WE
>>> who decide on their placenames? Where would everyone be if locals were
>>> allowed to choose their own identity!
>>> RP
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Bruce Redwine <
>>> bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks, Richard.  Modern Greek *Kerkyra* preserves ancient Greek *???????
>>>> *(Liddell and Scott).  So it may be that Durrell chose to honor this
>>>> usage and this past, which seem to be lost on contemporary readers.  I
>>>> mentioned before Open Road?s alteration of Durrell?s subtitle??Corcyra?
>>>> becomes ?Corfu.?  Something similar happens in Ian MacNiven?s edition of *Prospero?s
>>>> Cell* (New York:  Marlowe, 1996).  MacNiven does not change Durrell?s
>>>> subtitle, but the publisher alters the title on the book?s cover:  *Prospero?s
>>>> Cell:  A Guide to the Landscape and Manners of the Island of Corfu.  *Durrell?s
>>>> use of *Corcyra* is akin to Robert Byron?s use of *Oxiana* in *The
>>>> Road to Oxiana* (1937), which Durrell probably read, I?m guessing.
>>>> *Oxiana* refers to the country around the Oxus River in Central Asia,
>>>> now called the Amu.  *Oxus* is exotic, obscure even, unless one
>>>> recalls Arnold ?Sohrab and Rustum.?  Byron?s famous book develops through a
>>>> series of dated diary entries (Venice is the first?echoes of *Bitter
>>>> Lemons?).*  Durrell may have followed this pattern and then varied it.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:24 PM, james Esposito <
>>>> giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer
>>>> to their island?
>>>> The answer: Kerkyra
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:34 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> James, I previously addressed this email wrong.  Please post of list.
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>
>>>>> *From: *Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Subject: **Corcyra v. Corfu*
>>>>> *Date: *September 11, 2016 at 2:22:15 PM PDT
>>>>> *To: *Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Cc: *Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> Re *Prospero?s Cell,* it might be worthwhile to look carefully at
>>>>> Durrell?s use of *Corcyra* as opposed to *Corfu.*  First a little
>>>>> pedantry.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.  The *OED* 2nd does not have a separate entry for either *Corcyra*
>>>>> or *Corfu.*  The former is not mentioned; the latter?defined as ?the
>>>>> Greek island of Corfu??is noted under ?Corfiote.?
>>>>>
>>>>> 2.  Wikipedia has the following:  *Corfu* (/k??r?fu?, -fju?/
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English>; Greek
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>: ???????, *K?rkyra*
>>>>> [?cercira] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Greek>;
>>>>> Ancient Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: ???????
>>>>> or ???????; Latin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language>:
>>>>> *Corcyra*; Italian <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language>:
>>>>> *Corfu*).  This etymology, which I assume is correct, suggests that
>>>>> *Corcyra* is a transliteration of the older term in ancient Greek,
>>>>> whereas * Corfu* derives from modern Italian or some dialect of the
>>>>> same.  (How *cyra* becomes *fu* is an interesting problem
>>>>> in historical linguistics.)
>>>>>
>>>>> 3.  Durrell himself provides the following etymologies of *Corfu *and
>>>>> *Corcyra:*  ?2.10.37.  The literati of ?the Partridge? have spent a
>>>>> great deal of time upon the etymological derivation of the
>>>>> word ?Corfu.?  The current explanation that the Byzantine use of the word
>>>>> was related in some way to *k?pu???* (meaning twin-peaked) is not
>>>>> entirely acceptable to Zarian though Theodore?s more exacting scholarship
>>>>> appears to accept the idea.  Any modern Greek dictionary will list
>>>>> *k?p?os* which means ?gulf?; while research into the word Corcyra
>>>>> will give you the following *k?pkos*: (a tail, a handle);  *k?pkoupos*
>>>>> (a fish); and  *kepis* (a weaver?s comb, a leg bone, a fiddle bow).?
>>>>>  (p. 70; Greek orthography approximate)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How does Durrell use these two terms?  The first usage of *Corcyra* appears
>>>>> in his subtitle:  ?the island of Corcyra.?  The first usage of *Corfu* appears
>>>>> in the first sentence of his text:  ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corfu
>>>>> the blue really begins.?  (Note:  he does not say, ?Somewhere between
>>>>> Calabria and Corcyra.?)  He uses *Corfu* more often than *Corcyra*,
>>>>> according to my digital version of * PC.  *This suggests to me that
>>>>> *Corfu* is the unmarked or normal term in Durrell?s vocabulary.  The
>>>>> terms may be interchangeable, although I doubt this.  I?m tempted to say
>>>>> that Durrell uses *Corcyra* for some special effect, but that would
>>>>> require a more detailed reading than I?m willing to give at the moment.
>>>>>
>>>>> I use the Open Road digital version of Durrell?s works.  I do not
>>>>> trust this publisher.  Open Road has made changes to Durrell?s text,
>>>>> presumably to make it appeal to the contemporary reader.  A major change
>>>>> occurs in the subtitle:  ?the island of Corfu,? not ?Corcyra.?  I think
>>>>> this important?it violates Durrell?s intent.
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard Pine asks the question, ?Can you explain why you
>>>>> think ?Corcyra? is less common than 'Corfu' or 'Kerkyra'?  Why is it
>>>>> signal??  Although I do not know Greek, I think the answer lies in the
>>>>> context and the frequency of Durrell?s usage.  The obvious question so far
>>>>> unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  To repeat, the
>>>>> Wikipedia etymology suggests to me that *Corcyra* is the archaic term
>>>>> and as such evokes a special effect immediately announced in the subtitle
>>>>> of *Prospero?s Cell,* which is exactly why Open Road chose
>>>>> (egregiously) to change it.  That is, the modern reader might be put off by
>>>>> exotic allusions.  My explanation is that Durrell is using *Corcyra*
>>>>> to hearken back to a particular kind of travel literature.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Sep 14 09:35:27 2016
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 09:35:27 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
In-Reply-To: <CAEVum0Ja8crKpgWLhbaYB_=_5dA2sLNqBjND5dcSZJvduZ7wfA@mail.gmail.com>
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	<CAEVum0K_PJyCnHyUZUbGSvORDkDCtAgLdNWm77+GfF8_uRtEYA@mail.gmail.com>
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	<CAEVum0JLvA4Z7oA81HO7H8yuGF3w4zpqozxQhdxTubRHhwUGMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<DBXPR07MB28893DBE70CF058D3947A1281F10@DBXPR07MB288.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
	<CAEVum0Ja8crKpgWLhbaYB_=_5dA2sLNqBjND5dcSZJvduZ7wfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FDBC164E-00AF-4626-8B78-DF73985FB04E@earthlink.net>

For the sake of clarification, I am the one who apologized to Richard Pine for misstating his views.  By the way, Richard, I like your story of Brits putting names on the African map.  I also like Gerontopoulos?s opinion that Durrell used ?Corcyra? for ?poetic? or ?rhetorical? reasons.  Another clarification for those who care, Greek Aigyptos derived from the ancient Egyptian phrase for the city of Memphis, ?Mansion of the soul [ka] of Ptah,? Ptah being the primary deity of Memphis in ancient Egypt.  Modern Egyptians refer to their country as Msr (no vowels in Arabic orthography), which is Semitic and first cited in Neo-Babylonian, according to one source.  Why today?s Msr and not Khem is beyond this discussion, but I suspect it has something to do with the Arab Conquest of Egypt in 640-641, a topic discussed a while back.

Bruce





> On Sep 14, 2016, at 8:21 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Mr Gerontopoulos you are yet again reading what isn't there - no one suggested that you had anything to apologise for so the question does not arise. And as far as we in Corfu are concerned, one doesn't write 'Corfiot-Kerkyreos' but 'Corfiot-Kerkiraikos'.
> RP
> 
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Panaiotis Gerontopoulos <pan.gero at hotmail.com <mailto:pan.gero at hotmail.com>> wrote:
> I didn't apologize, and I don't see why should I apologize and for what. All I wanted was to facilitate this long  discussion pointing to attention to non-Greek participants elementary  information contained in any Greek encyclopedia. I live in Edipsos near Istiaia (???????) known in the past as  Xirochori (????????) renamed for the very same reasons described in my post. The same happened to many other Greek toponyms: Vostizza-Aigion , Salona-Amfissa, Zituni-Lamia, Tsirigo-Kythira, Candia-Iraklion, etc. etc. Ask any Corfiot-Kerkyreos friend. As for fundamentalists, Egypt-Khemia, and my hypothetical terroristic  plans   ask CIA. The only question that remains to be discussed, if any, is why Durrell chose Corcyra for a  novel taking place in modern Corfu.
> 
> 
> P.G.
> From: ILDS <ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca>> on behalf of Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com <mailto:pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 9:49:42 AM
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
>  
> Why are you apologising? No need.
> I bet there are fundamentalists demanding, through their fundament, a change from Egypt to Khemia or some such. You have probably started something.
> I think a lot of the 'western' names given to 'eastern' places are due to hearing difficulties - phonological if you will, in the sense that logic applied different results to phono.
> I knew an English boy who would not say the Irish pro-name 'Proinnsias' - the irish for Francis -  (approx pronunciation 'Pron-she-as' - so he said 'Poncho', and his parents allowed him to do so. The child was perfectly capable of saying the name correctly. I suspect that many 'westernised' placenames originated because some explorer turned to his companion and said 'I can't understand a word these coons are saying, Fitzherbert - let's call it Swaziland' 'Oh golly good show Carruthers, I'll mark that down on the map'.
> Ethiopia
> RP
> 
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 3:04 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
> Okay about the Corfiots not being ?insulted.?  My apologies.  But I?ll stick to a purely linguistic interpretation of how place names (as a rule) become transliterated from language to language.  I do not see ?cultural differences? as being a factor in this kind of linguistics.  ?Cultural differences? suggests to me, anyway, some kind of cultural bias or, at worse, some kind of cultural imperialism, the kind which Edward W. Said is famous for interpreting as a major sin of the West?the British, the French, and the Americans, in particular.   I assume this is what you?re implying by referring to the ?udder sound? of ?Mos-cow.?  There are purely linguistic reasons for Beijing/Peking, Kolkotta/Calcutta, and Mumbai/Bombay?and these I strongly doubt have anything to do with some kind of original prejudice (in the sense of the original adaptation into the Latin alphabet), if you will.  ?Decolonization? has a lot to do with these phonological changes, but that should not reflect on the original choice of the place names?they were not, in my opinion, exploitative.  But there are exceptions, of course, where one culture imposes (?) a name on a foreign one.  The name for the land of Egypt is derived from the Greek Aigyptos, the Greek name for the city of Memphis.  The ancient ?Egyptians? themselves referred to their land as Khem or Khemet (?the black land?).  Egypt has stuck, however, and doesn?t seem to bother today?s ?Egyptians.?  I don?t see a movement for the renaming of Egypt and its Egyptians as the Land of Khem and its Khemians.  Undoubtedly, there are more such examples.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:31 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com <mailto:pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I did not suggest that referring to kerkyra as Corfu was insulting. The Corfiots do it all the time.
>> But the 'linguistic' or 'phonetic' differences betray cultural differences which can sometimes be annoying.
>> Moskva becomes Mos-coe becomes (for Americans) Mos-cow (an udder sound) - is it really so diffficult?
>> We have all had to re-educate ourselves to say 'Beijing' instead of 'Peking', 'kolkotta' for 'Calcutta' and Mumbai for Bombay. This is de-colonialism and I suppose most people would welcome it.
>> Ethiopia
>> RP
>> 
>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>> There are linguistic reasons for differences in the spelling and pronunciation of place names between languages, the main one being phonetic or phonological differences.  So German Wien becomes English Vienna simply because the English spelling conforms to the German pronunciation (where the /a/ comes from is another matter).  By and large, I do not interpret the differences as examples of colonialism, imperialism, ethnocentrism, or even xenophobia (a good Greek word which the Greeks invented and used).  As to Kerkyra v. Corfu, the former is Greek and the latter apparently Byzantine Greek (as Durrell points out in his etymology below).  How we English-speakers (and presumably others) have adopted Corfu instead of Kerkyra is a historical problem?and not, I think, a deliberate insult to the Corfiots.  The English and French languages have been pretty good at respecting indigenous terms?for example, Canada, Quebec, Michigan, Nebraska, and so on.
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 1:11 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com <mailto:pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I don't think we should be surprised that Greeks refer to 'Corfu' as 'Kerkyra' - it's the name of the place! And Corfiots (not Corfiotes, please, that's a C17 term that's out of use) actually live in Kerkyra. it's damned annoying for the rest of us that the Austrians insist on living in Wien, when we all know they live in Vienna, and even worse that the Swiss want to be in Genf. Don't we all wish that locals would learn that it is WE who decide on their placenames? Where would everyone be if locals were allowed to choose their own identity!
>>> RP
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>> Thanks, Richard.  Modern Greek Kerkyra preserves ancient Greek ??????? (Liddell and Scott).  So it may be that Durrell chose to honor this usage and this past, which seem to be lost on contemporary readers.  I mentioned before Open Road?s alteration of Durrell?s subtitle??Corcyra? becomes ?Corfu.?  Something similar happens in Ian MacNiven?s edition of Prospero?s Cell (New York:  Marlowe, 1996).  MacNiven does not change Durrell?s subtitle, but the publisher alters the title on the book?s cover:  Prospero?s Cell:  A Guide to the Landscape and Manners of the Island of Corfu.  Durrell?s use of Corcyra is akin to Robert Byron?s use of Oxiana in The Road to Oxiana (1937), which Durrell probably read, I?m guessing.  Oxiana refers to the country around the Oxus River in Central Asia, now called the Amu.  Oxus is exotic, obscure even, unless one recalls Arnold ?Sohrab and Rustum.?  Byron?s famous book develops through a series of dated diary entries (Venice is the first?echoes of Bitter Lemons?).  Durrell may have followed this pattern and then varied it.
>>> 
>>> Bruce
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:24 PM, james Esposito <giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com <mailto:giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  
>>>> The answer: Kerkyra
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:34 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com <mailto:bredwine1968 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> James, I previously addressed this email wrong.  Please post of list.  Thanks.
>>>> 
>>>> Bruce
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com <mailto:bredwine1968 at gmail.com>>
>>>>> Subject: Corcyra v. Corfu
>>>>> Date: September 11, 2016 at 2:22:15 PM PDT
>>>>> To: Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com <mailto:sumantranag at gmail.com>>
>>>>> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Re Prospero?s Cell, it might be worthwhile to look carefully at Durrell?s use of Corcyra as opposed to Corfu.  First a little pedantry.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1.  The OED 2nd does not have a separate entry for either Corcyra or Corfu.  The former is not mentioned; the latter?defined as ?the Greek island of Corfu??is noted under ?Corfiote.?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 2.  Wikipedia has the following:  Corfu (/k??r?fu?,?-fju?/ <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English>; Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>: ???????, K?rkyra [?cercira] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Greek>; Ancient?Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: ??????? or ???????; Latin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language>: Corcyra; Italian <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language>: Corfu).  This etymology, which I assume is correct, suggests that Corcyra is a transliteration of the older term in ancient Greek, whereas Corfu derives from modern Italian or some dialect of the same.  (How cyra becomes fu is an interesting problem in historical linguistics.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 3.  Durrell himself provides the following etymologies of Corfu and Corcyra:  ?2.10.37.  The literati of ?the Partridge? have spent a great deal of time upon the etymological derivation of the word ?Corfu.?  The current explanation that the Byzantine use of the word was related in some way to k?pu??? (meaning twin-peaked) is not entirely acceptable to Zarian though Theodore?s more exacting scholarship appears to accept the idea.  Any modern Greek dictionary will list k?p?os which means ?gulf?; while research into the word Corcyra will give you the following k?pkos: (a tail, a handle);  k?pkoupos (a fish); and  kepis (a weaver?s comb, a leg bone, a fiddle bow).?  (p. 70; Greek orthography approximate)
>>>>> 
>>>>> How does Durrell use these two terms?  The first usage of Corcyra appears in his subtitle:  ?the island of Corcyra.?  The first usage of Corfu appears in the first sentence of his text:  ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corfu the blue really begins.?  (Note:  he does not say, ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corcyra.?)  He uses Corfu more often than Corcyra, according to my digital version of PC.  This suggests to me that Corfu is the unmarked or normal term in Durrell?s vocabulary.  The terms may be interchangeable, although I doubt this.  I?m tempted to say that Durrell uses Corcyra for some special effect, but that would require a more detailed reading than I?m willing to give at the moment.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I use the Open Road digital version of Durrell?s works.  I do not trust this publisher.  Open Road has made changes to Durrell?s text, presumably to make it appeal to the contemporary reader.  A major change occurs in the subtitle:  ?the island of Corfu,? not ?Corcyra.?  I think this important?it violates Durrell?s intent.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Richard Pine asks the question, ?Can you explain why you think ?Corcyra? is less common than 'Corfu' or 'Kerkyra'?  Why is it signal??  Although I do not know Greek, I think the answer lies in the context and the frequency of Durrell?s usage.  The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  To repeat, the Wikipedia etymology suggests to me that Corcyra is the archaic term and as such evokes a special effect immediately announced in the subtitle of Prospero?s Cell, which is exactly why Open Road chose (egregiously) to change it.  That is, the modern reader might be put off by exotic allusions.  My explanation is that Durrell is using Corcyra to hearken back to a particular kind of travel literature.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>> 

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From pan.gero at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 14 09:51:15 2016
From: pan.gero at hotmail.com (Panaiotis Gerontopoulos)
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:51:15 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
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Mr. Price, errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum. You say ??????????-? for a person, you say ???????????-?-? for an object. Ask your secretary.  As for reading what isn't there, wasn't your message of today 10. 40 AM addressed to somebody else?

P.G.


________________________________
From: ILDS <ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca> on behalf of Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 6:21:08 PM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Subject: Re: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu

Mr Gerontopoulos you are yet again reading what isn't there - no one suggested that you had anything to apologise for so the question does not arise. And as far as we in Corfu are concerned, one doesn't write 'Corfiot-Kerkyreos' but 'Corfiot-Kerkiraikos'.
RP

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Panaiotis Gerontopoulos <pan.gero at hotmail.com<mailto:pan.gero at hotmail.com>> wrote:

I didn't apologize, and I don't see why should I apologize and for what. All I wanted was to facilitate this long  discussion pointing to attention to non-Greek participants elementary  information contained in any Greek encyclopedia. I live in Edipsos near Istiaia (???????) known in the past as  Xirochori (????????) renamed for the very same reasons described in my post. The same happened to many other Greek toponyms: Vostizza-Aigion , Salona-Amfissa, Zituni-Lamia, Tsirigo-Kythira, Candia-Iraklion, etc. etc. Ask any Corfiot-Kerkyreos friend. As for fundamentalists, Egypt-Khemia, and my hypothetical terroristic  plans   ask CIA. The only question that remains to be discussed, if any, is why Durrell chose Corcyra for a  novel taking place in modern Corfu.


P.G.

________________________________
From: ILDS <ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca<mailto:ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca>> on behalf of Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com<mailto:pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 9:49:42 AM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca<mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Subject: Re: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu

Why are you apologising? No need.
I bet there are fundamentalists demanding, through their fundament, a change from Egypt to Khemia or some such. You have probably started something.
I think a lot of the 'western' names given to 'eastern' places are due to hearing difficulties - phonological if you will, in the sense that logic applied different results to phono.
I knew an English boy who would not say the Irish pro-name 'Proinnsias' - the irish for Francis -  (approx pronunciation 'Pron-she-as' - so he said 'Poncho', and his parents allowed him to do so. The child was perfectly capable of saying the name correctly. I suspect that many 'westernised' placenames originated because some explorer turned to his companion and said 'I can't understand a word these coons are saying, Fitzherbert - let's call it Swaziland' 'Oh golly good show Carruthers, I'll mark that down on the map'.
Ethiopia
RP

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 3:04 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net<mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
Okay about the Corfiots not being ?insulted.?  My apologies.  But I?ll stick to a purely linguistic interpretation of how place names (as a rule) become transliterated from language to language.  I do not see ?cultural differences? as being a factor in this kind of linguistics.  ?Cultural differences? suggests to me, anyway, some kind of cultural bias or, at worse, some kind of cultural imperialism, the kind which Edward W. Said is famous for interpreting as a major sin of the West?the British, the French, and the Americans, in particular.   I assume this is what you?re implying by referring to the ?udder sound? of ?Mos-cow.?  There are purely linguistic reasons for Beijing/Peking, Kolkotta/Calcutta, and Mumbai/Bombay?and these I strongly doubt have anything to do with some kind of original prejudice (in the sense of the original adaptation into the Latin alphabet), if you will.  ?Decolonization? has a lot to do with these phonological changes, but that should not reflect on the original choice of the place names?they were not, in my opinion, exploitative.  But there are exceptions, of course, where one culture imposes (?) a name on a foreign one.  The name for the land of Egypt is derived from the Greek Aigyptos, the Greek name for the city of Memphis.  The ancient ?Egyptians? themselves referred to their land as Khem or Khemet (?the black land?).  Egypt has stuck, however, and doesn?t seem to bother today?s ?Egyptians.?  I don?t see a movement for the renaming of Egypt and its Egyptians as the Land of Khem and its Khemians.  Undoubtedly, there are more such examples.

Bruce






On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:31 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com<mailto:pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>> wrote:

I did not suggest that referring to kerkyra as Corfu was insulting. The Corfiots do it all the time.
But the 'linguistic' or 'phonetic' differences betray cultural differences which can sometimes be annoying.
Moskva becomes Mos-coe becomes (for Americans) Mos-cow (an udder sound) - is it really so diffficult?
We have all had to re-educate ourselves to say 'Beijing' instead of 'Peking', 'kolkotta' for 'Calcutta' and Mumbai for Bombay. This is de-colonialism and I suppose most people would welcome it.
Ethiopia
RP

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net<mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
There are linguistic reasons for differences in the spelling and pronunciation of place names between languages, the main one being phonetic or phonological differences.  So German Wien becomes English Vienna simply because the English spelling conforms to the German pronunciation (where the /a/ comes from is another matter).  By and large, I do not interpret the differences as examples of colonialism, imperialism, ethnocentrism, or even xenophobia (a good Greek word which the Greeks invented and used).  As to Kerkyra v. Corfu, the former is Greek and the latter apparently Byzantine Greek (as Durrell points out in his etymology below).  How we English-speakers (and presumably others) have adopted Corfu instead of Kerkyra is a historical problem?and not, I think, a deliberate insult to the Corfiots.  The English and French languages have been pretty good at respecting indigenous terms?for example, Canada, Quebec, Michigan, Nebraska, and so on.

Bruce





On Sep 13, 2016, at 1:11 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com<mailto:pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>> wrote:

I don't think we should be surprised that Greeks refer to 'Corfu' as 'Kerkyra' - it's the name of the place! And Corfiots (not Corfiotes, please, that's a C17 term that's out of use) actually live in Kerkyra. it's damned annoying for the rest of us that the Austrians insist on living in Wien, when we all know they live in Vienna, and even worse that the Swiss want to be in Genf. Don't we all wish that locals would learn that it is WE who decide on their placenames? Where would everyone be if locals were allowed to choose their own identity!
RP

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net<mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
Thanks, Richard.  Modern Greek Kerkyra preserves ancient Greek ??????? (Liddell and Scott).  So it may be that Durrell chose to honor this usage and this past, which seem to be lost on contemporary readers.  I mentioned before Open Road?s alteration of Durrell?s subtitle??Corcyra? becomes ?Corfu.?  Something similar happens in Ian MacNiven?s edition of Prospero?s Cell (New York:  Marlowe, 1996).  MacNiven does not change Durrell?s subtitle, but the publisher alters the title on the book?s cover:  Prospero?s Cell:  A Guide to the Landscape and Manners of the Island of Corfu.  Durrell?s use of Corcyra is akin to Robert Byron?s use of Oxiana in The Road to Oxiana (1937), which Durrell probably read, I?m guessing.  Oxiana refers to the country around the Oxus River in Central Asia, now called the Amu.  Oxus is exotic, obscure even, unless one recalls Arnold ?Sohrab and Rustum.?  Byron?s famous book develops through a series of dated diary entries (Venice is the first?echoes of Bitter Lemons?).  Durrell may have followed this pattern and then varied it.

Bruce





On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:24 PM, james Esposito <giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com<mailto:giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com>> wrote:

The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?
The answer: Kerkyra

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:34 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com<mailto:bredwine1968 at gmail.com>> wrote:
James, I previously addressed this email wrong.  Please post of list.  Thanks.

Bruce



Begin forwarded message:

From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com<mailto:bredwine1968 at gmail.com>>
Subject: Corcyra v. Corfu
Date: September 11, 2016 at 2:22:15 PM PDT
To: Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com<mailto:sumantranag at gmail.com>>
Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net<mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>>

Re Prospero?s Cell, it might be worthwhile to look carefully at Durrell?s use of Corcyra as opposed to Corfu.  First a little pedantry.

1.  The OED 2nd does not have a separate entry for either Corcyra or Corfu.  The former is not mentioned; the latter?defined as ?the Greek island of Corfu??is noted under ?Corfiote.?

2.  Wikipedia has the following:  Corfu (/k??r?fu?, -fju?/<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English>; Greek<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>: ???????, K?rkyra [?cercira]<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Greek>; Ancient Greek<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: ??????? or ???????; Latin<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language>: Corcyra; Italian<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language>: Corfu).  This etymology, which I assume is correct, suggests that Corcyra is a transliteration of the older term in ancient Greek, whereas Corfu derives from modern Italian or some dialect of the same.  (How cyra becomes fu is an interesting problem in historical linguistics.)

3.  Durrell himself provides the following etymologies of Corfu and Corcyra:  ?2.10.37.  The literati of ?the Partridge? have spent a great deal of time upon the etymological derivation of the word ?Corfu.?  The current explanation that the Byzantine use of the word was related in some way to k?pu??? (meaning twin-peaked) is not entirely acceptable to Zarian though Theodore?s more exacting scholarship appears to accept the idea.  Any modern Greek dictionary will list k?p?os which means ?gulf?; while research into the word Corcyra will give you the following k?pkos: (a tail, a handle);  k?pkoupos (a fish); and  kepis (a weaver?s comb, a leg bone, a fiddle bow).?  (p. 70; Greek orthography approximate)

How does Durrell use these two terms?  The first usage of Corcyra appears in his subtitle:  ?the island of Corcyra.?  The first usage of Corfu appears in the first sentence of his text:  ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corfu the blue really begins.?  (Note:  he does not say, ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corcyra.?)  He uses Corfu more often than Corcyra, according to my digital version of PC.  This suggests to me that Corfu is the unmarked or normal term in Durrell?s vocabulary.  The terms may be interchangeable, although I doubt this.  I?m tempted to say that Durrell uses Corcyra for some special effect, but that would require a more detailed reading than I?m willing to give at the moment.

I use the Open Road digital version of Durrell?s works.  I do not trust this publisher.  Open Road has made changes to Durrell?s text, presumably to make it appeal to the contemporary reader.  A major change occurs in the subtitle:  ?the island of Corfu,? not ?Corcyra.?  I think this important?it violates Durrell?s intent.

Richard Pine asks the question, ?Can you explain why you think ?Corcyra? is less common than 'Corfu' or 'Kerkyra'?  Why is it signal??  Although I do not know Greek, I think the answer lies in the context and the frequency of Durrell?s usage.  The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  To repeat, the Wikipedia etymology suggests to me that Corcyra is the archaic term and as such evokes a special effect immediately announced in the subtitle of Prospero?s Cell, which is exactly why Open Road chose (egregiously) to change it.  That is, the modern reader might be put off by exotic allusions.  My explanation is that Durrell is using Corcyra to hearken back to a particular kind of travel literature.

Bruce



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From pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com  Wed Sep 14 10:02:27 2016
From: pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com (Richard Pine)
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 20:02:27 +0300
Subject: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
In-Reply-To: <DBXPR07MB2880C6952EC6E40CB7C9FC681F10@DBXPR07MB288.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
References: <99C7BDCA-46D3-4F39-8BF6-718CB0A5EB0F@gmail.com>
	<DE142D17-EC30-4356-A6C9-583DE6075342@gmail.com>
	<CAFcAaFcpwU6_Pz2Sb98Cth29rHgsdOf2JjiUW7PbDsxx343kYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<7BA88C47-3A36-4050-A7E0-CCE151349938@earthlink.net>
	<CAEVum0+Kh0yGu2BSmNKqA70TARvhp6UEhd+BKeCsGywTuDwouw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BE7DEE56-E2F0-4B6F-A16D-EBC80B5BAF8D@earthlink.net>
	<CAEVum0K_PJyCnHyUZUbGSvORDkDCtAgLdNWm77+GfF8_uRtEYA@mail.gmail.com>
	<FC3DBC31-5E35-4DA7-82FF-C9FF007AA498@earthlink.net>
	<CAEVum0JLvA4Z7oA81HO7H8yuGF3w4zpqozxQhdxTubRHhwUGMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<DBXPR07MB28893DBE70CF058D3947A1281F10@DBXPR07MB288.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
	<CAEVum0Ja8crKpgWLhbaYB_=_5dA2sLNqBjND5dcSZJvduZ7wfA@mail.gmail.com>
	<DBXPR07MB2880C6952EC6E40CB7C9FC681F10@DBXPR07MB288.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAEVum0+u5Th1aVS62Ao+O5vsabz1yRtjnX8amuR=hfoPGer6QQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes it was. And who is to say that we are not all objects? As someone who
will not take yes for an answer, I certainly object.
RP

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 7:51 PM, Panaiotis Gerontopoulos <
pan.gero at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Mr. Price, errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum. You say ??????????-
> ? for a person, you say ???????????-?-? for an object. Ask your
> secretary.  As for reading what isn't there, wasn't your message of today
> 10. 40 AM addressed to somebody else?
>
> P.G.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* ILDS <ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca> on behalf of Richard Pine <
> pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2016 6:21:08 PM
>
> *To:* ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> *Subject:* Re: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
>
> Mr Gerontopoulos you are yet again reading what isn't there - no one
> suggested that you had anything to apologise for so the question does not
> arise. And as far as we in Corfu are concerned, one doesn't write
> 'Corfiot-Kerkyreos' but 'Corfiot-Kerkiraikos'.
> RP
>
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Panaiotis Gerontopoulos <
> pan.gero at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I didn't apologize, and I don't see why should I apologize and for what.
>> All I wanted was to facilitate this long  discussion pointing to attention
>> to non-Greek participants elementary  information contained in any Greek
>> encyclopedia. I live in Edipsos near Istiaia (???????) known in the past
>> as  Xirochori (????????) renamed for the very same reasons described in my
>> post. The same happened to many other Greek toponyms: Vostizza-Aigion
>> , Salona-Amfissa, Zituni-Lamia, Tsirigo-Kythira, Candia-Iraklion, etc. etc.
>> Ask any Corfiot-Kerkyreos friend. As for fundamentalists, Egypt-Khemia, and
>> my hypothetical terroristic  plans   ask CIA. The only question that
>> remains to be discussed, if any, is why Durrell chose Corcyra for a
>> novel taking place in modern Corfu.
>>
>>
>> P.G.
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* ILDS <ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca> on behalf of Richard Pine <
>> pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2016 9:49:42 AM
>> *To:* ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> *Subject:* Re: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
>>
>> Why are you apologising? No need.
>> I bet there are fundamentalists demanding, through their fundament, a
>> change from Egypt to Khemia or some such. You have probably started
>> something.
>> I think a lot of the 'western' names given to 'eastern' places are due to
>> hearing difficulties - phonological if you will, in the sense that logic
>> applied different results to phono.
>> I knew an English boy who would not say the Irish pro-name 'Proinnsias' -
>> the irish for Francis -  (approx pronunciation 'Pron-she-as' - so he said
>> 'Poncho', and his parents allowed him to do so. The child was perfectly
>> capable of saying the name correctly. I suspect that many 'westernised'
>> placenames originated because some explorer turned to his companion and
>> said 'I can't understand a word these coons are saying, Fitzherbert - let's
>> call it Swaziland' 'Oh golly good show Carruthers, I'll mark that down on
>> the map'.
>> Ethiopia
>> RP
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 3:04 AM, Bruce Redwine <
>> bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Okay about the Corfiots not being ?insulted.?  My apologies.  But I?ll
>>> stick to a purely linguistic interpretation of how place names (as a rule)
>>> become transliterated from language to language.  I do not see ?cultural
>>> differences? as being a factor in this kind of linguistics.  ?Cultural
>>> differences? suggests to me, anyway, some kind of cultural bias or, at
>>> worse, some kind of cultural imperialism, the kind which Edward W. Said is
>>> famous for interpreting as a major sin of the West?the British, the French,
>>> and the Americans, in particular.   I assume this is what you?re implying
>>> by referring to the ?udder sound? of ?Mos-cow.?  There are purely
>>> linguistic reasons for Beijing/Peking, Kolkotta/Calcutta, and
>>> Mumbai/Bombay?and these I strongly doubt have anything to do with some kind
>>> of original prejudice (in the sense of the original adaptation into the
>>> Latin alphabet), if you will.  ?Decolonization? has a lot to do with these
>>> phonological changes, but that should not reflect on the original choice of
>>> the place names?they were not, in my opinion, exploitative.  But there are
>>> exceptions, of course, where one culture imposes (?) a name on a foreign
>>> one.  The name for the land of Egypt is derived from the Greek
>>> *Aigyptos,* the Greek name for the city of Memphis.  The ancient
>>> ?Egyptians? themselves referred to their land as *Khem* or *Khemet*
>>> (?the black land?).  *Egypt* has stuck, however, and doesn?t seem to
>>> bother today?s ?Egyptians.?  I don?t see a movement for the renaming of
>>> Egypt and its Egyptians as the Land of Khem and its Khemians.  Undoubtedly,
>>> there are more such examples.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:31 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I did not suggest that referring to kerkyra as Corfu was insulting. The
>>> Corfiots do it all the time.
>>> But the 'linguistic' or 'phonetic' differences betray cultural
>>> differences which can sometimes be annoying.
>>> Moskva becomes Mos-coe becomes (for Americans) Mos-cow (an udder sound)
>>> - is it really so diffficult?
>>> We have all had to re-educate ourselves to say 'Beijing' instead of
>>> 'Peking', 'kolkotta' for 'Calcutta' and Mumbai for Bombay. This is
>>> de-colonialism and I suppose most people would welcome it.
>>> Ethiopia
>>> RP
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Bruce Redwine <
>>> bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There are linguistic reasons for differences in the spelling and
>>>> pronunciation of place names between languages, the main one being phonetic
>>>> or phonological differences.  So German *Wien* becomes English *Vienna*
>>>> simply because the English spelling conforms to the German pronunciation
>>>> (where the /a/ comes from is another matter).  By and large, I do not
>>>> interpret the differences as examples of colonialism, imperialism,
>>>> ethnocentrism, or even xenophobia (a good Greek word which the Greeks
>>>> invented and used).  As to *Kerkyra* v. *Corfu*, the former is Greek
>>>> and the latter apparently Byzantine Greek (as Durrell points out in his
>>>> etymology below).  How we English-speakers (and presumably others) have
>>>> adopted *Corfu* instead of *Kerkyra* is a historical problem?and not,
>>>> I think, a deliberate insult to the Corfiots.  The English and French
>>>> languages have been pretty good at respecting indigenous terms?for example,
>>>> Canada, Quebec, Michigan, Nebraska, and so on.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 1:11 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't think we should be surprised that Greeks refer to 'Corfu' as
>>>> 'Kerkyra' - it's the name of the place! And Corfiots (not Corfiotes,
>>>> please, that's a C17 term that's out of use) actually live in Kerkyra. it's
>>>> damned annoying for the rest of us that the Austrians insist on living in
>>>> Wien, when we all know they live in Vienna, and even worse that the Swiss
>>>> want to be in Genf. Don't we all wish that locals would learn that it is WE
>>>> who decide on their placenames? Where would everyone be if locals were
>>>> allowed to choose their own identity!
>>>> RP
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Bruce Redwine <
>>>> bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Richard.  Modern Greek *Kerkyra* preserves ancient Greek *???????
>>>>> *(Liddell and Scott).  So it may be that Durrell chose to honor this
>>>>> usage and this past, which seem to be lost on contemporary readers.  I
>>>>> mentioned before Open Road?s alteration of Durrell?s subtitle??Corcyra?
>>>>> becomes ?Corfu.?  Something similar happens in Ian MacNiven?s edition of *Prospero?s
>>>>> Cell* (New York:  Marlowe, 1996).  MacNiven does not change Durrell?s
>>>>> subtitle, but the publisher alters the title on the book?s cover:  *Prospero?s
>>>>> Cell:  A Guide to the Landscape and Manners of the Island of Corfu.  *Durrell?s
>>>>> use of *Corcyra* is akin to Robert Byron?s use of *Oxiana* in *The
>>>>> Road to Oxiana* (1937), which Durrell probably read, I?m guessing.
>>>>> *Oxiana* refers to the country around the Oxus River in Central Asia,
>>>>> now called the Amu.  *Oxus* is exotic, obscure even, unless one
>>>>> recalls Arnold ?Sohrab and Rustum.?  Byron?s famous book develops through a
>>>>> series of dated diary entries (Venice is the first?echoes of *Bitter
>>>>> Lemons?).*  Durrell may have followed this pattern and then varied it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:24 PM, james Esposito <
>>>>> giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer
>>>>> to their island?
>>>>> The answer: Kerkyra
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:34 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> James, I previously addressed this email wrong.  Please post of
>>>>>> list.  Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From: *Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> *Subject: **Corcyra v. Corfu*
>>>>>> *Date: *September 11, 2016 at 2:22:15 PM PDT
>>>>>> *To: *Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com>
>>>>>> *Cc: *Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Re *Prospero?s Cell,* it might be worthwhile to look carefully at
>>>>>> Durrell?s use of *Corcyra* as opposed to *Corfu.*  First a little
>>>>>> pedantry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1.  The *OED* 2nd does not have a separate entry for either *Corcyra*
>>>>>> or *Corfu.*  The former is not mentioned; the latter?defined as ?the
>>>>>> Greek island of Corfu??is noted under ?Corfiote.?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2.  Wikipedia has the following:  *Corfu* (/k??r?fu?, -fju?/
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English>; Greek
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>: ???????, *K?rkyra*
>>>>>> [?cercira] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Greek>;
>>>>>> Ancient Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: ???????
>>>>>> or ???????; Latin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language>:
>>>>>> *Corcyra*; Italian <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language>:
>>>>>> *Corfu*).  This etymology, which I assume is correct, suggests that
>>>>>> *Corcyra* is a transliteration of the older term in ancient Greek,
>>>>>> whereas * Corfu* derives from modern Italian or some dialect of the
>>>>>> same.  (How *cyra* becomes *fu* is an interesting problem
>>>>>> in historical linguistics.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3.  Durrell himself provides the following etymologies of *Corfu *and
>>>>>>  *Corcyra:*  ?2.10.37.  The literati of ?the Partridge? have spent a
>>>>>> great deal of time upon the etymological derivation of the
>>>>>> word ?Corfu.?  The current explanation that the Byzantine use of the word
>>>>>> was related in some way to *k?pu???* (meaning twin-peaked) is not
>>>>>> entirely acceptable to Zarian though Theodore?s more exacting scholarship
>>>>>> appears to accept the idea.  Any modern Greek dictionary will list
>>>>>> *k?p?os* which means ?gulf?; while research into the word Corcyra
>>>>>> will give you the following *k?pkos*: (a tail, a handle);
>>>>>> *k?pkoupos* (a fish); and  *kepis* (a weaver?s comb, a leg bone, a
>>>>>> fiddle bow).?  (p. 70; Greek orthography approximate)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How does Durrell use these two terms?  The first usage of *Corcyra* appears
>>>>>> in his subtitle:  ?the island of Corcyra.?  The first usage of
>>>>>> *Corfu* appears in the first sentence of his text:  ?Somewhere
>>>>>> between Calabria and Corfu the blue really begins.?  (Note:  he does not
>>>>>> say, ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corcyra.?)  He uses *Corfu*
>>>>>> more often than *Corcyra*, according to my digital version of * PC.
>>>>>>  *This suggests to me that *Corfu* is the unmarked or normal term in
>>>>>> Durrell?s vocabulary.  The terms may be interchangeable, although I doubt
>>>>>> this.  I?m tempted to say that Durrell uses *Corcyra* for some
>>>>>> special effect, but that would require a more detailed reading than I?m
>>>>>> willing to give at the moment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I use the Open Road digital version of Durrell?s works.  I do not
>>>>>> trust this publisher.  Open Road has made changes to Durrell?s text,
>>>>>> presumably to make it appeal to the contemporary reader.  A major change
>>>>>> occurs in the subtitle:  ?the island of Corfu,? not ?Corcyra.?  I think
>>>>>> this important?it violates Durrell?s intent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Richard Pine asks the question, ?Can you explain why you
>>>>>> think ?Corcyra? is less common than 'Corfu' or 'Kerkyra'?  Why is it
>>>>>> signal??  Although I do not know Greek, I think the answer lies in the
>>>>>> context and the frequency of Durrell?s usage.  The obvious question so far
>>>>>> unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  To repeat, the
>>>>>> Wikipedia etymology suggests to me that *Corcyra* is the archaic
>>>>>> term and as such evokes a special effect immediately announced in the
>>>>>> subtitle of *Prospero?s Cell,* which is exactly why Open Road chose
>>>>>> (egregiously) to change it.  That is, the modern reader might be put off by
>>>>>> exotic allusions.  My explanation is that Durrell is using *Corcyra*
>>>>>> to hearken back to a particular kind of travel literature.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Sep 14 10:58:55 2016
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 10:58:55 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Fronts of Modernity: The 20th-Century Collections at the
	University of Victoria Libraries
In-Reply-To: <d85302b1-cf28-f5f0-fb75-a2ea9969400c@gmail.com>
References: <d85302b1-cf28-f5f0-fb75-a2ea9969400c@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A77F17B3-6EEE-48B1-B130-3A82381EE689@earthlink.net>

James, I glanced at the link.  It is marvelous, a great job.  Congratulations!  How does one order a hard copy?

Bruce





> On Sep 13, 2016, at 8:23 PM, James Gifford <james.d.gifford at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> I'm delighted to announce a new collection from the University of Victoria Libraries that showcases their collections, including the Durrell holdings (among several others to give him good company!):
> 
> Huculak, J. Matthew. /Fronts of Modernity: The 20th-Century Collections at the University of Victoria Libraries/. Victoria, BC: University of Victoria Libraries, 2016.
> 
> http://www.uvic.ca/library/about/ul/publications/UVic%20Library%202016%20FOM%20book%20WEB.pdf
> 
> The project is available in print in a limited print run (1,000 copies) and for free download at the link above.  The Durrell section is on pp. 52?59.
> 
> All best,
> James



From pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com  Wed Sep 14 23:03:59 2016
From: pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com (Richard Pine)
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 09:03:59 +0300
Subject: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
In-Reply-To: <CAEVum0+u5Th1aVS62Ao+O5vsabz1yRtjnX8amuR=hfoPGer6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <99C7BDCA-46D3-4F39-8BF6-718CB0A5EB0F@gmail.com>
	<DE142D17-EC30-4356-A6C9-583DE6075342@gmail.com>
	<CAFcAaFcpwU6_Pz2Sb98Cth29rHgsdOf2JjiUW7PbDsxx343kYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<7BA88C47-3A36-4050-A7E0-CCE151349938@earthlink.net>
	<CAEVum0+Kh0yGu2BSmNKqA70TARvhp6UEhd+BKeCsGywTuDwouw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BE7DEE56-E2F0-4B6F-A16D-EBC80B5BAF8D@earthlink.net>
	<CAEVum0K_PJyCnHyUZUbGSvORDkDCtAgLdNWm77+GfF8_uRtEYA@mail.gmail.com>
	<FC3DBC31-5E35-4DA7-82FF-C9FF007AA498@earthlink.net>
	<CAEVum0JLvA4Z7oA81HO7H8yuGF3w4zpqozxQhdxTubRHhwUGMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<DBXPR07MB28893DBE70CF058D3947A1281F10@DBXPR07MB288.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
	<CAEVum0Ja8crKpgWLhbaYB_=_5dA2sLNqBjND5dcSZJvduZ7wfA@mail.gmail.com>
	<DBXPR07MB2880C6952EC6E40CB7C9FC681F10@DBXPR07MB288.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
	<CAEVum0+u5Th1aVS62Ao+O5vsabz1yRtjnX8amuR=hfoPGer6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEVum0KNHpN06NKtZ=wi_rKz9+PTqpmaGvFmiCbb1V0Ab7T-fQ@mail.gmail.com>

And now I look at it again, it wasn't addressed to me anyway, so it was
exceptionally gracious of me to ostensibly reply on Mr Price's behalf.
Chantal de Legumes.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 8:02 PM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Yes it was. And who is to say that we are not all objects? As someone who
> will not take yes for an answer, I certainly object.
> RP
>
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 7:51 PM, Panaiotis Gerontopoulos <
> pan.gero at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Mr. Price, errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum. You say ??????????
>> -? for a person, you say ???????????-?-? for an object. Ask your
>> secretary.  As for reading what isn't there, wasn't your message of today
>> 10. 40 AM addressed to somebody else?
>>
>> P.G.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* ILDS <ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca> on behalf of Richard Pine <
>> pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2016 6:21:08 PM
>>
>> *To:* ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> *Subject:* Re: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
>>
>> Mr Gerontopoulos you are yet again reading what isn't there - no one
>> suggested that you had anything to apologise for so the question does not
>> arise. And as far as we in Corfu are concerned, one doesn't write
>> 'Corfiot-Kerkyreos' but 'Corfiot-Kerkiraikos'.
>> RP
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Panaiotis Gerontopoulos <
>> pan.gero at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I didn't apologize, and I don't see why should I apologize and for what.
>>> All I wanted was to facilitate this long  discussion pointing to attention
>>> to non-Greek participants elementary  information contained in any Greek
>>> encyclopedia. I live in Edipsos near Istiaia (???????) known in the past
>>> as  Xirochori (????????) renamed for the very same reasons described in my
>>> post. The same happened to many other Greek toponyms: Vostizza-Aigion
>>> , Salona-Amfissa, Zituni-Lamia, Tsirigo-Kythira, Candia-Iraklion, etc. etc.
>>> Ask any Corfiot-Kerkyreos friend. As for fundamentalists, Egypt-Khemia, and
>>> my hypothetical terroristic  plans   ask CIA. The only question that
>>> remains to be discussed, if any, is why Durrell chose Corcyra for a
>>> novel taking place in modern Corfu.
>>>
>>>
>>> P.G.
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* ILDS <ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca> on behalf of Richard Pine <
>>> pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2016 9:49:42 AM
>>> *To:* ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> *Subject:* Re: [ilds] Corcyra v. Corfu
>>>
>>> Why are you apologising? No need.
>>> I bet there are fundamentalists demanding, through their fundament, a
>>> change from Egypt to Khemia or some such. You have probably started
>>> something.
>>> I think a lot of the 'western' names given to 'eastern' places are due
>>> to hearing difficulties - phonological if you will, in the sense that logic
>>> applied different results to phono.
>>> I knew an English boy who would not say the Irish pro-name 'Proinnsias'
>>> - the irish for Francis -  (approx pronunciation 'Pron-she-as' - so he said
>>> 'Poncho', and his parents allowed him to do so. The child was perfectly
>>> capable of saying the name correctly. I suspect that many 'westernised'
>>> placenames originated because some explorer turned to his companion and
>>> said 'I can't understand a word these coons are saying, Fitzherbert - let's
>>> call it Swaziland' 'Oh golly good show Carruthers, I'll mark that down on
>>> the map'.
>>> Ethiopia
>>> RP
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 3:04 AM, Bruce Redwine <
>>> bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Okay about the Corfiots not being ?insulted.?  My apologies.  But I?ll
>>>> stick to a purely linguistic interpretation of how place names (as a rule)
>>>> become transliterated from language to language.  I do not see ?cultural
>>>> differences? as being a factor in this kind of linguistics.  ?Cultural
>>>> differences? suggests to me, anyway, some kind of cultural bias or, at
>>>> worse, some kind of cultural imperialism, the kind which Edward W. Said is
>>>> famous for interpreting as a major sin of the West?the British, the French,
>>>> and the Americans, in particular.   I assume this is what you?re implying
>>>> by referring to the ?udder sound? of ?Mos-cow.?  There are purely
>>>> linguistic reasons for Beijing/Peking, Kolkotta/Calcutta, and
>>>> Mumbai/Bombay?and these I strongly doubt have anything to do with some kind
>>>> of original prejudice (in the sense of the original adaptation into the
>>>> Latin alphabet), if you will.  ?Decolonization? has a lot to do with these
>>>> phonological changes, but that should not reflect on the original choice of
>>>> the place names?they were not, in my opinion, exploitative.  But there are
>>>> exceptions, of course, where one culture imposes (?) a name on a foreign
>>>> one.  The name for the land of Egypt is derived from the Greek
>>>> *Aigyptos,* the Greek name for the city of Memphis.  The ancient
>>>> ?Egyptians? themselves referred to their land as *Khem* or *Khemet*
>>>> (?the black land?).  *Egypt* has stuck, however, and doesn?t seem to
>>>> bother today?s ?Egyptians.?  I don?t see a movement for the renaming of
>>>> Egypt and its Egyptians as the Land of Khem and its Khemians.  Undoubtedly,
>>>> there are more such examples.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:31 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I did not suggest that referring to kerkyra as Corfu was insulting. The
>>>> Corfiots do it all the time.
>>>> But the 'linguistic' or 'phonetic' differences betray cultural
>>>> differences which can sometimes be annoying.
>>>> Moskva becomes Mos-coe becomes (for Americans) Mos-cow (an udder sound)
>>>> - is it really so diffficult?
>>>> We have all had to re-educate ourselves to say 'Beijing' instead of
>>>> 'Peking', 'kolkotta' for 'Calcutta' and Mumbai for Bombay. This is
>>>> de-colonialism and I suppose most people would welcome it.
>>>> Ethiopia
>>>> RP
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Bruce Redwine <
>>>> bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There are linguistic reasons for differences in the spelling and
>>>>> pronunciation of place names between languages, the main one being phonetic
>>>>> or phonological differences.  So German *Wien* becomes English
>>>>> *Vienna* simply because the English spelling conforms to the German
>>>>> pronunciation (where the /a/ comes from is another matter).  By and large,
>>>>> I do not interpret the differences as examples of colonialism, imperialism,
>>>>> ethnocentrism, or even xenophobia (a good Greek word which the Greeks
>>>>> invented and used).  As to *Kerkyra* v. *Corfu*, the former is Greek
>>>>> and the latter apparently Byzantine Greek (as Durrell points out in his
>>>>> etymology below).  How we English-speakers (and presumably others) have
>>>>> adopted *Corfu* instead of *Kerkyra* is a historical problem?and not,
>>>>> I think, a deliberate insult to the Corfiots.  The English and French
>>>>> languages have been pretty good at respecting indigenous terms?for example,
>>>>> Canada, Quebec, Michigan, Nebraska, and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 1:11 AM, Richard Pine <pinedurrellcorfu at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think we should be surprised that Greeks refer to 'Corfu' as
>>>>> 'Kerkyra' - it's the name of the place! And Corfiots (not Corfiotes,
>>>>> please, that's a C17 term that's out of use) actually live in Kerkyra. it's
>>>>> damned annoying for the rest of us that the Austrians insist on living in
>>>>> Wien, when we all know they live in Vienna, and even worse that the Swiss
>>>>> want to be in Genf. Don't we all wish that locals would learn that it is WE
>>>>> who decide on their placenames? Where would everyone be if locals were
>>>>> allowed to choose their own identity!
>>>>> RP
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Bruce Redwine <
>>>>> bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks, Richard.  Modern Greek *Kerkyra* preserves ancient Greek *???????
>>>>>> *(Liddell and Scott).  So it may be that Durrell chose to honor this
>>>>>> usage and this past, which seem to be lost on contemporary readers.  I
>>>>>> mentioned before Open Road?s alteration of Durrell?s subtitle??Corcyra?
>>>>>> becomes ?Corfu.?  Something similar happens in Ian MacNiven?s edition of *Prospero?s
>>>>>> Cell* (New York:  Marlowe, 1996).  MacNiven does not change
>>>>>> Durrell?s subtitle, but the publisher alters the title on the book?s cover:
>>>>>>  *Prospero?s Cell:  A Guide to the Landscape and Manners of the
>>>>>> Island of Corfu.  *Durrell?s use of *Corcyra* is akin to Robert
>>>>>> Byron?s use of *Oxiana* in *The Road to Oxiana* (1937), which
>>>>>> Durrell probably read, I?m guessing.  *Oxiana* refers to the country
>>>>>> around the Oxus River in Central Asia, now called the Amu.  *Oxus*
>>>>>> is exotic, obscure even, unless one recalls Arnold ?Sohrab and Rustum.?
>>>>>>  Byron?s famous book develops through a series of dated diary entries
>>>>>> (Venice is the first?echoes of *Bitter Lemons?).*  Durrell may have
>>>>>> followed this pattern and then varied it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:24 PM, james Esposito <
>>>>>> giacomoesposito72 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The obvious question so far unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer
>>>>>> to their island?
>>>>>> The answer: Kerkyra
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:34 AM, Bruce Redwine <
>>>>>> bredwine1968 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> James, I previously addressed this email wrong.  Please post of
>>>>>>> list.  Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From: *Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> *Subject: **Corcyra v. Corfu*
>>>>>>> *Date: *September 11, 2016 at 2:22:15 PM PDT
>>>>>>> *To: *Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> *Cc: *Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Re *Prospero?s Cell,* it might be worthwhile to look carefully at
>>>>>>> Durrell?s use of *Corcyra* as opposed to *Corfu.*  First a little
>>>>>>> pedantry.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1.  The *OED* 2nd does not have a separate entry for either
>>>>>>> *Corcyra* or *Corfu.*  The former is not mentioned; the
>>>>>>> latter?defined as ?the Greek island of Corfu??is noted under ?Corfiote.?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2.  Wikipedia has the following:  *Corfu* (/k??r?fu?, -fju?/
>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English>; Greek
>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>: ???????, *K?rkyra*
>>>>>>> [?cercira] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Greek>;
>>>>>>> Ancient Greek <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: ???????
>>>>>>> or ???????; Latin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language>:
>>>>>>> *Corcyra*; Italian <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language>
>>>>>>> : *Corfu*).  This etymology, which I assume is correct, suggests
>>>>>>> that *Corcyra* is a transliteration of the older term in ancient
>>>>>>> Greek, whereas * Corfu* derives from modern Italian or some dialect
>>>>>>> of the same.  (How *cyra* becomes *fu* is an interesting problem
>>>>>>> in historical linguistics.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3.  Durrell himself provides the following etymologies of *Corfu *
>>>>>>> and *Corcyra:*  ?2.10.37.  The literati of ?the Partridge? have
>>>>>>> spent a great deal of time upon the etymological derivation of the
>>>>>>> word ?Corfu.?  The current explanation that the Byzantine use of the word
>>>>>>> was related in some way to *k?pu???* (meaning twin-peaked) is not
>>>>>>> entirely acceptable to Zarian though Theodore?s more exacting scholarship
>>>>>>> appears to accept the idea.  Any modern Greek dictionary will list
>>>>>>> *k?p?os* which means ?gulf?; while research into the word Corcyra
>>>>>>> will give you the following *k?pkos*: (a tail, a handle);
>>>>>>> *k?pkoupos* (a fish); and  *kepis* (a weaver?s comb, a leg bone, a
>>>>>>> fiddle bow).?  (p. 70; Greek orthography approximate)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How does Durrell use these two terms?  The first usage of *Corcyra* appears
>>>>>>> in his subtitle:  ?the island of Corcyra.?  The first usage of
>>>>>>> *Corfu* appears in the first sentence of his text:  ?Somewhere
>>>>>>> between Calabria and Corfu the blue really begins.?  (Note:  he does not
>>>>>>> say, ?Somewhere between Calabria and Corcyra.?)  He uses *Corfu*
>>>>>>> more often than *Corcyra*, according to my digital version of * PC.
>>>>>>>  *This suggests to me that *Corfu* is the unmarked or normal term
>>>>>>> in Durrell?s vocabulary.  The terms may be interchangeable, although I
>>>>>>> doubt this.  I?m tempted to say that Durrell uses *Corcyra* for
>>>>>>> some special effect, but that would require a more detailed reading than
>>>>>>> I?m willing to give at the moment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I use the Open Road digital version of Durrell?s works.  I do not
>>>>>>> trust this publisher.  Open Road has made changes to Durrell?s text,
>>>>>>> presumably to make it appeal to the contemporary reader.  A major change
>>>>>>> occurs in the subtitle:  ?the island of Corfu,? not ?Corcyra.?  I think
>>>>>>> this important?it violates Durrell?s intent.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Richard Pine asks the question, ?Can you explain why you
>>>>>>> think ?Corcyra? is less common than 'Corfu' or 'Kerkyra'?  Why is it
>>>>>>> signal??  Although I do not know Greek, I think the answer lies in the
>>>>>>> context and the frequency of Durrell?s usage.  The obvious question so far
>>>>>>> unanswered:  how do Greeks on Corfu refer to their island?  To repeat, the
>>>>>>> Wikipedia etymology suggests to me that *Corcyra* is the archaic
>>>>>>> term and as such evokes a special effect immediately announced in the
>>>>>>> subtitle of *Prospero?s Cell,* which is exactly why Open Road chose
>>>>>>> (egregiously) to change it.  That is, the modern reader might be put off by
>>>>>>> exotic allusions.  My explanation is that Durrell is using *Corcyra*
>>>>>>> to hearken back to a particular kind of travel literature.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ILDS mailing list
>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>
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From james.d.gifford at gmail.com  Thu Sep 15 12:46:02 2016
From: james.d.gifford at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 12:46:02 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Fwd: FW: 2017 Narrative Conference
In-Reply-To: <BLUPR0401MB150620192752934887779E50DAF00@BLUPR0401MB1506.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BLUPR0401MB150620192752934887779E50DAF00@BLUPR0401MB1506.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <d3c99488-a1af-e383-d2c6-7a9010ad2927@gmail.com>

Dear all,

Anne Zahlan has suggested this conference as of interest to Durrellians 
(see the attached or brief comments below). Once more to Kentucky!

All best,
James

*From:*narrative-l at georgetown.edu [mailto:narrative-l at georgetown.edu] 
*On Behalf Of *Nadel, Alan M
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 6, 2016 11:31 AM
*To:* Narrative List <narrative-l at georgetown.edu>
*Subject:* Narrative List - 2017 Narrative Conference

*                     REMINDER*

*  Narrative Conference*

**

*                Lexington, Kentucky*

**

*                March 23-26, 2017*

_Submission Deadline: October 15_

                      CFP Attached

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From sumantranag at gmail.com  Sat Sep 17 01:08:40 2016
From: sumantranag at gmail.com (Sumantra Nag)
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 13:38:40 +0530
Subject: [ilds] Susan Sontag: literature as a purely sensorial experience
In-Reply-To: <CA+5jupTX0Nob0Qw+t49TOwg1s8MWaU-7gh8UGoaM-6HWAu0NOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+5jupRBgdqqciyWtOk2eAw17GPesi8KznmJTP4P7ADL-VdQTA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupQsEJh2B9Sb9BnDgMfdd3ekDQEsAva_beJiDkLG=KHL2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupQXXoz6ehiLGmR=GMKfZRtg1O6d3vc5y3oJS8RUqgd-cA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupTepTHv_LYZn+1ytN=564F03vtbP380AunX4G1XiA-PSg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupQVS+E3XJ7xtKPgXX9dySHirdiMJ5OErQc6547aNtuc8w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupThi99SZrecfqyrB0Ot3=f-5SGNPA1enFpa2T_sb4q=Bg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupQHX8OjL239szTto5PR+LoH7YeyzJxnTfjzGSn-zsRHSg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupTLt+CW9piTUKb5F262YFceSo9ZbXx=iDUMyX-GoKbBrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupQ-YPCTX1CO3HwOaUT9s4tLmRueYFJb_6=+Uu4s4hJ=cQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupSOPGrOtshcXDpZuOHzr-UNk0YY=QYKSryqqB+SwEYTzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupS9QGneDTR3K4mOZ2rdFJ8qq+HLHZNn+f+9Sxfoi_+qOw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupTX0Nob0Qw+t49TOwg1s8MWaU-7gh8UGoaM-6HWAu0NOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+5jupT4Egug8Yhre=De3Kx2tPX24Zy1d1BJ9r1eAz=8f6iw_w@mail.gmail.com>

Without having yet read Susan Sontag's essays or her novel as yet, I
thought I would share this essay on her view of literature as a primarily
sensory experience rather than one which expresses ideas and moulds
thought. From such a view Form becomes dominant against Content.

The view seemed very relevant to The Alexandria Quartet at least which
provides a highly sensory experience and where Form stands out in creating
a world which can be viewed as an aesthetic experience.

This essay points out that in her novel The Volcano Lover (1992) Susan
Sontag seems to modify or question her earlier view of literature as a
purely aesthetic experience which need not be interpreted through analysis.

"For all that has been said so far, then, I believe that "The Volcano
Lover" can be read as an instance of slippage from Sontag?s former
Formalist stand. Firstly, through the ironic narrativization of the
Cavaliere?s totalizing aesthetic views, I think that she actually mocks the
hermeticism of her own appraoch to the literary text,* according to which
aesthetics should be the only dominant in literature in an attempt to
reduce it to pure sensorial expression.* Secondly, she explicitly brings
into her text the theme of the ex-centrics as well as historiographic
events from a critical viewpoint, lending to her narrative an unavoidable
ideological twist and thus contesting her views as expressed in ?Against
Interpretation? that the novel cannot be taken as a social, political or
cultural declaration about the world."

Sumantra Nag

Sent from my Moto G4 Plus
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Sep 17 09:24:05 2016
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 09:24:05 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Susan Sontag: literature as a purely sensorial experience
In-Reply-To: <CA+5jupT4Egug8Yhre=De3Kx2tPX24Zy1d1BJ9r1eAz=8f6iw_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+5jupRBgdqqciyWtOk2eAw17GPesi8KznmJTP4P7ADL-VdQTA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupQsEJh2B9Sb9BnDgMfdd3ekDQEsAva_beJiDkLG=KHL2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupQXXoz6ehiLGmR=GMKfZRtg1O6d3vc5y3oJS8RUqgd-cA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupTepTHv_LYZn+1ytN=564F03vtbP380AunX4G1XiA-PSg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupQVS+E3XJ7xtKPgXX9dySHirdiMJ5OErQc6547aNtuc8w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupThi99SZrecfqyrB0Ot3=f-5SGNPA1enFpa2T_sb4q=Bg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupQHX8OjL239szTto5PR+LoH7YeyzJxnTfjzGSn-zsRHSg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupTLt+CW9piTUKb5F262YFceSo9ZbXx=iDUMyX-GoKbBrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupQ-YPCTX1CO3HwOaUT9s4tLmRueYFJb_6=+Uu4s4hJ=cQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupSOPGrOtshcXDpZuOHzr-UNk0YY=QYKSryqqB+SwEYTzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupS9QGneDTR3K4mOZ2rdFJ8qq+HLHZNn+f+9Sxfoi_+qOw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupTX0Nob0Qw+t49TOwg1s8MWaU-7gh8UGoaM-6HWAu0NOQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+5jupT4Egug8Yhre=De3Kx2tPX24Zy1d1BJ9r1eAz=8f6iw_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8554BA07-7AE0-4E5F-AE5B-E141546D3DDC@earthlink.net>

Good to hear from Sumantra again.  I too have not read Sontag?s Volcano Lover (1992), but her early statement that literature (mainly fiction probably) is form over content is rather strange.  This is an Aristotelean argument taken out of the Poetics (recall Aristotle?s analysis of Oedipus Rex).  What?s strange is that Sontag is known primarily for her essays, her ideas.  With respect to Durrell, I?d put him somewhere that straddles form and content.  Form in the sense of his poetry, his creation of his own sensory world, which, as Sumantra says, ?can be viewed as an aesthetic experience.?  His ideas, however, are equally important?especially to Durrell himself.  We?ve talked about the European ?novel of ideas.?  I?d put him in that tradition, probably mainly in that tradition.  Durrell had a philosophy, however vague.  Whole books have been devoted to that subject:  Richard Pine?s Mindscape (2005) and C. Ravindran Nambiar?s Indian Metaphysics in Lawrence Durrell?s Novels (2014).  Ray Morrison on Durrell?s Taoism is also relevant?A Smile in His Mind?s Eye (2005).

Bruce






> On Sep 17, 2016, at 1:08 AM, Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Without having yet read Susan Sontag's essays or her novel as yet, I thought I would share this essay on her view of literature as a primarily sensory experience rather than one which expresses ideas and moulds thought. From such a view Form becomes dominant against Content.
> 
> The view seemed very relevant to The Alexandria Quartet at least which provides a highly sensory experience and where Form stands out in creating a world which can be viewed as an aesthetic experience.
> 
> This essay points out that in her novel The Volcano Lover (1992) Susan Sontag seems to modify or question her earlier view of literature as a purely aesthetic experience which need not be interpreted through analysis.
> 
> "For all that has been said so far, then, I believe that "The Volcano Lover" can be read as an instance of slippage from Sontag?s former Formalist stand. Firstly, through the ironic narrativization of the Cavaliere?s totalizing aesthetic views, I think that she actually mocks the hermeticism of her own appraoch to the literary text, according to which aesthetics should be the only dominant in literature in an attempt to reduce it to pure sensorial expression. Secondly, she explicitly brings into her text the theme of the ex-centrics as well as historiographic events from a critical viewpoint, lending to her narrative an unavoidable ideological twist and thus contesting her views as expressed in ?Against Interpretation? that the novel cannot be taken as a social, political or cultural declaration about the world."
> 
> Sumantra Nag
> 
> Sent from my Moto G4 Plus
> 

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From cnncravi at gmail.com  Sat Sep 17 19:46:34 2016
From: cnncravi at gmail.com (Ravi Nambiar)
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 08:16:34 +0530
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 113, Issue 11
In-Reply-To: <mailman.13.1474138823.25624.ilds@lists.uvic.ca>
References: <mailman.13.1474138823.25624.ilds@lists.uvic.ca>
Message-ID: <CAMzefpC93LEX_7rSdJG7jTOn+dj0yyadPDhqeTO9oZSjkL8qZg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Sumantra,
Good to be in touch via ILDS. Your statement "...The Alexandria Quartet at
least which provides a highly sensory experience and where Form stands out
in creating a world which can be viewed as an aesthetic experience" is true
for those interested in enjoying the narration alone, the sensory
experience alone. But, those who want to enjoy the content equally will
have to be on the side of Bruce, who says, "With respect to Durrell, I?d
put him somewhere that straddles form and content." Though it is unfair to
talk about one's own book, I kindly draw your attention to my book,
particularly to the second chapter, where I brought Jiddu Krishnamurthi in
to understand the character, Darley, in a better way. Darley's confession
that he must drop his "private Alexandria" (drop Dualism), if he has to
reach his own self is significant for me. Dropping Alexandria
(Schopenhauer) necessitates not only dropping Justine and Melissa, but it
also enables Darley to see them both in Clea. You know, Durrell announced
more than once that his Quartet is Western and  the Quintet is Eastern. He
also spoke about moving from Don Juan to Bon Juan. I would like to put it
this way: if the Quartet is a novel about the experience of a Don Jan, who
is in search of his ultimate woman (in the sense that the journey finally
takes Darley to his own self), the Quintet is that of a Bon Juan (Bon was
the name of a religion that existed in Tibet). It is Affad's Tibetan self
that enables him to drop Constance easily from his memory (non-dualism) without
letting her hang on to him like Justine who could blur Darley's vision of
reality.
Regards
Ravi

On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 12:30 AM, <ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> wrote:

> Send ILDS mailing list submissions to
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> than "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Susan Sontag: literature as a purely sensorial experience
>       (Sumantra Nag)
>    2. Re: Susan Sontag: literature as a purely sensorial experience
>       (Bruce Redwine)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 13:38:40 +0530
> From: Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com>
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Gulshan Taneja <grtaneja at gmail.com>
> Subject: [ilds] Susan Sontag: literature as a purely sensorial
>         experience
> Message-ID:
>         <CA+5jupT4Egug8Yhre=De3Kx2tPX24Zy1d1BJ9r1eAz=8f6iw
> _w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Without having yet read Susan Sontag's essays or her novel as yet, I
> thought I would share this essay on her view of literature as a primarily
> sensory experience rather than one which expresses ideas and moulds
> thought. From such a view Form becomes dominant against Content.
>
> The view seemed very relevant to The Alexandria Quartet at least which
> provides a highly sensory experience and where Form stands out in creating
> a world which can be viewed as an aesthetic experience.
>
> This essay points out that in her novel The Volcano Lover (1992) Susan
> Sontag seems to modify or question her earlier view of literature as a
> purely aesthetic experience which need not be interpreted through analysis.
>
> "For all that has been said so far, then, I believe that "The Volcano
> Lover" can be read as an instance of slippage from Sontag?s former
> Formalist stand. Firstly, through the ironic narrativization of the
> Cavaliere?s totalizing aesthetic views, I think that she actually mocks the
> hermeticism of her own appraoch to the literary text,* according to which
> aesthetics should be the only dominant in literature in an attempt to
> reduce it to pure sensorial expression.* Secondly, she explicitly brings
> into her text the theme of the ex-centrics as well as historiographic
> events from a critical viewpoint, lending to her narrative an unavoidable
> ideological twist and thus contesting her views as expressed in ?Against
> Interpretation? that the novel cannot be taken as a social, political or
> cultural declaration about the world."
>
> Sumantra Nag
>
> Sent from my Moto G4 Plus
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 09:24:05 -0700
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> To: Sumantra Nag <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, Gulshan Taneja
>         <grtaneja at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Susan Sontag: literature as a purely sensorial
>         experience
> Message-ID: <8554BA07-7AE0-4E5F-AE5B-E141546D3DDC at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Good to hear from Sumantra again.  I too have not read Sontag?s Volcano
> Lover (1992), but her early statement that literature (mainly fiction
> probably) is form over content is rather strange.  This is an Aristotelean
> argument taken out of the Poetics (recall Aristotle?s analysis of Oedipus
> Rex).  What?s strange is that Sontag is known primarily for her essays, her
> ideas.  With respect to Durrell, I?d put him somewhere that straddles form
> and content.  Form in the sense of his poetry, his creation of his own
> sensory world, which, as Sumantra says, ?can be viewed as an aesthetic
> experience.?  His ideas, however, are equally important?especially to
> Durrell himself.  We?ve talked about the European ?novel of ideas.?  I?d
> put him in that tradition, probably mainly in that tradition.  Durrell had
> a philosophy, however vague.  Whole books have been devoted to that
> subject:  Richard Pine?s Mindscape (2005) and C. Ravindran Nambiar?s Indian
> Metaphysics in Lawrence Durrell?s Novels (2!
>  014).  Ray Morrison on Durrell?s Taoism is also relevant?A Smile in His
> Mind?s Eye (2005).
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 17, 2016, at 1:08 AM, Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Without having yet read Susan Sontag's essays or her novel as yet, I
> thought I would share this essay on her view of literature as a primarily
> sensory experience rather than one which expresses ideas and moulds
> thought. From such a view Form becomes dominant against Content.
> >
> > The view seemed very relevant to The Alexandria Quartet at least which
> provides a highly sensory experience and where Form stands out in creating
> a world which can be viewed as an aesthetic experience.
> >
> > This essay points out that in her novel The Volcano Lover (1992) Susan
> Sontag seems to modify or question her earlier view of literature as a
> purely aesthetic experience which need not be interpreted through analysis.
> >
> > "For all that has been said so far, then, I believe that "The Volcano
> Lover" can be read as an instance of slippage from Sontag?s former
> Formalist stand. Firstly, through the ironic narrativization of the
> Cavaliere?s totalizing aesthetic views, I think that she actually mocks the
> hermeticism of her own appraoch to the literary text, according to which
> aesthetics should be the only dominant in literature in an attempt to
> reduce it to pure sensorial expression. Secondly, she explicitly brings
> into her text the theme of the ex-centrics as well as historiographic
> events from a critical viewpoint, lending to her narrative an unavoidable
> ideological twist and thus contesting her views as expressed in ?Against
> Interpretation? that the novel cannot be taken as a social, political or
> cultural declaration about the world."
> >
> > Sumantra Nag
> >
> > Sent from my Moto G4 Plus
> >
>
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