[ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue 18
mail at durrelllibrarycorfu.org
mail at durrelllibrarycorfu.org
Mon May 18 12:11:14 PDT 2015
There will be an online statement of LD's personal library holdings shortly (assembled from all available sources), when the new Durrell Library website goes public. Watch this space.
Richard Pine
Durrell Library of Corfu
-----Original Message-----
From: ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca [mailto:ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca]
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 03:00 PM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Subject: ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue 18
Send ILDS mailing list submissions to ilds at lists.uvic.caTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ildsor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ilds-request at lists.uvic.caYou can reach the person managing the list at ilds-owner at lists.uvic.caWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specificthan "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..."Today's Topics: 1. Did LGD read JRRT? (Kennedy Gammage) 2. Re: Did LGD read JRRT? (James Gifford) 3. Re: Durrell's materialism (Denise Tart & David Green) 4. Durrell/ Tolkien Readers (Denise Tart & David Green) 5. Re: Of course Tolkien was not being truthful_Durrell a "religious writer"? (Sumantra Nag) 6. Re: Of course Tolkien was not being truthful_Durrell documentary of 1977 (Sumantra Nag) 7. Caesar's Vast Ghost, review by Bobby Matheme, 2002 (Denise Tart & David Green) 8. Re: ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue 15 (Sumantra Nag) 9. Re: Durrell?s Characters (Sumantra Nag) 10. Re: Durrell?s Characters-including the city of Alexandria (Sumantra Nag) 11. Re: Durrell?s Characters (Sumantra Nag) 12. Fwd: RE: Durrell?s Characters (Sumantra Nag) 13. Re: Of course Tolkien was not being truthful_Durrell a "religious writer"? (Bruce Redwine) 14. Re: Of course Tolkien was not being truthful_Durrell documentary of 1977 (Bruce Redwine) 15. Re: Caesar's Vast Ghost, review by Bobby Matheme, 2002 (Bruce Redwine)----------------------------------------------------------------------Message: 1Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 13:51:34 -0700From: Kennedy Gammage To: ilds at lists.uvic.caSubject: [ilds] Did LGD read JRRT?Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"I personally think it?s likely, even if copies weren?t in Durrell?s library(is there an online list of the books he owned?) ? and I was also curiousabout his habits with books. They probably didn?t have many Englishlanguage titles in the local libraries. Did he share books with friends,mailing them and receiving them from around the world? LotR was justbecoming popular the same time the Quartet was. If he didn?t actually readit he must have at least been aware of it.LotR is widely considered to be fantasy, as opposed to science fiction ? agenre Durrell mentioned in the Balthazar Note. Anecdotally, several olderbrothers of my schoolmates at about that time were reading the Revolt, andthey considered it to be science fiction (though the fabrication of anapparently living woman out of gutta-percha using the technology of the daywas certainly fantastic.) Because of the many fabulous examples we?ve beenreferencing from his writing, I want to believe Durrell sometimes readscience fiction and fantasy - but I?m not sure there?s any evidence of thatin his library.Cheers - Ken-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Message: 2Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 15:40:07 -0700From: James Gifford To: ilds at lists.uvic.caSubject: Re: [ilds] Did LGD read JRRT?Message-ID: <555918C7.9040309 at gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowedHi Ken,There's no Tolkien in Durrell's library at Carbondale. I don't remember seeing any in Paris, but I wasn't really looking either -- I'll hunt that down online through their catalogue...I don't know of any other connections between them nor do I remember (or easily spot right now) any references to Tolkien in Durrell's letters.As for LOTR, I may be wrong on this, but my impression is that it became the bestseller in the 1960s in the USA more than in Britain, at least at first (a bit like Orwell's 1984). Because, hippies... A question might also be the degree to which Durrell's readers would also have been readers of Tolkien, which I'm afraid I can't really give any solid evidence for.As for gutta percha, I've always assumed that was based on the importance of the sap for the first underwater telegraph cable to North America. 1960s communications histories or media studies would been interested in this, ? la McLuhan. The sci-fi of /Revolt/ is to me as much about the changes in and commercialization of telecommunications & recording technologies as it is the robotic innovations and more obviously sci-fi stuff.All best,JamesOn 2015-05-17 1:51 PM, Kennedy Gammage wrote:> I personally think it?s likely, even if copies weren?t in Durrell?s> library (is there an online list of the books he owned?) ? and I was> also curious about his habits with books. They probably didn?t have many> English language titles in the local libraries. Did he share books with> friends, mailing them and receiving them from around the world? LotR was> just becoming popular the same time the Quartet was. If he didn?t> actually read it he must have at least been aware of it.>> LotR is widely considered to be fantasy, as opposed to science fiction ?> a genre Durrell mentioned in the Balthazar Note. Anecdotally, several> older brothers of my schoolmates at about that time were reading the> Revolt, and they considered it to be science fiction (though the> fabrication of an apparently living woman out of gutta-percha using the> technology of the day was certainly fantastic.) Because of the many> fabulous examples we?ve been referencing from his writing, I want to> believe Durrell sometimes read science fiction and fantasy - but I?m not> sure there?s any evidence of that in his library.>> Cheers - Ken>>>> _______________________________________________> ILDS mailing list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds>------------------------------Message: 3Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 08:48:46 +1000From: "Denise Tart & David Green" To: Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's materialismMessage-ID: <999F62072B814B61915C31A6906B7011 at DenisePC>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=originalThanks. The book you mention is not mine, but one my wife co wrote with 4 other women. It started out a joke and then they got serious about it and, bingo, Random House liked it and after much reworking, they published it. It has sold fairly well here so far and should be available in hard cover in USA in June. The author is Alice Campion. I believe there is an e book available now I believe.Yes, don't feed the Trolls and stay away from orcs, especially the large, New Zealand Maori rugby types.Denise and I will be in Sommierres in a couple weeks. I should probably read Caesar's Vast Ghost before we get there.David16 William StreetMarrickville NSW 2204+61 2 9564 61650412 707 625--------------------------------------------------From: "Odos" Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2015 11:39 PMTo: Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's materialism> Nicely said, David, and thanks for sharing the links to your new books!>> I may need to reconsider after going back to Cefalu / Dark Labyrinth... > next week... And of course, Tolkien's great truths amidst fantasy were > ethical & spiritual. He and Durrell would have that in common, and of > course the take-home practical advice of LOTR: don't feed the trolls.>> Best,> James>> Sent from my iPad>>> On May 17, 2015, at 12:55 AM, Denise Tart & David Green >> wrote:>>>> James, yes, but maybe a re read of Dark Labyrinth for you AND his myth is >> not so materialistic in the island books, but then he still had a private >> income and in a transcendental space inspired by ancient and modern >> Greece which he transubstantiated into his wonderful sea girt books??>>>> David>>>>>> Denise Tart>> Co-author - The Painted Sky by Alice Campion - out NOW - Random House >> Australia - >> http://www.randomhouse.com.au/books/alice-campion/the-painted-sky-9780857984852.aspx>> Co-author - How to Write Fiction as a Group - out NOW - >> www.groupfiction.net>> Marriage Celebrant - Denise Tart - designing ceremonies - >> www.denisetart.com.au>> 16 William Street>> Marrickville NSW 2204>> +61 2 9564 6165>> 0412 707 625>> _______________________________________________> ILDS mailing list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds ------------------------------Message: 4Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 09:02:28 +1000From: "Denise Tart & David Green" To: "James Gifford" , "Durrel" Subject: [ilds] Durrell/ Tolkien ReadersMessage-ID: <111726D5FCB0459D92BA4475DFB5002D at DenisePC>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"A question might also be the degree to which Durrell's readers would also have been readers of Tolkien, which I'm afraid I can't really give any solid evidence for.James, I can provide one piece of evidence, me. Born in 1959, I read both Tolkien (many times) and Both Durrell's many times in the 70s and 80s. Havn't read Tolkien for years, but keep reading Durrell.Durrell was a hit in avante garde arty circles here in Oz in the 60s/70s - Tolkien less so, but he was widely read, so I'd say there were more than a few who read both. Peter Jackson did a good job with the first LOTR movie, the fellowship, then lost the plot, especially in The Hobbit; refused to watch it after number one.Yeah, the hippies appropriated Tolkien and also Waldorf/Steiner schools. I have worked at one for ten years. There are schools called Lorien and kids with names like Arwen. There is lot of vegetarianism and herbal remedies. Ah, Hippies....Pour me a beer.David16 William StreetMarrickville NSW 2204+61 2 9564 61650412 707 625-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Message: 5Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 07:57:17 +0530From: Sumantra Nag To: ilds at lists.uvic.caCc: James Gifford , Bruce Redwine Subject: Re: [ilds] Of course Tolkien was not being truthful_Durrell a "religious writer"?Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"Bruce,I'm not sure I understand in what sense Durrell can be described as areligious writer.>From the evidence emerging about Durrell as a person - much of which hasbeen frankly presented by you in your exchanges - it would be difficult tosee Durrell anchored to religion influences which guided his personal life.His relationship with women seemed to involve a high level of aggression onhis part. His treatment of his daughter Sappho appears to have beenquestioned. In this aspect of Durrell I'm drawing from what I have read inILDS exchanges.SumantraSent from my Samsung TabOn 17 May 2015 01:46, "Bruce Redwine" wrote:> James,>> Stimulating response. Okay. We differ. I tend to treat Durrell?s> literary output as evidence for his personal philosophy. He?s a religious> writer, in my opinion. He has a view to propagate. His *Quartet,* as he> states in the note to *Balthazar,* is an ?investigation.? I take him at> his word (which presents problems, of course). He doesn?t say he writing> fiction with a moral, a story to instruct and amuse, Chaucer?s ?sentence?> and ?solaas.? He?s out to prove and demonstrate something. You might say> Durrell is in the great tradition of ?spiritual autobiography,? another> Bunyan and his *Pilgrim?s Progress.*>> So I don?t separate the man from his work. If all we had to go on about> Lawrence Durrell was his oeuvre, then your approach to ?truth? in his> writings makes sense. But we know a great deal about his life and> behavior, often from his many statements in various media. The dominant> impression I get from those ?communications? is a propensity to dissemble,> to prevaricate, and to lie. All of which resemble the *Quartet?s*> unstable world without certainties. You can say he?s creating a ?public> persona,? reprising his diplomatic role as Director of Public Relations or> just confounding ?the bastards,? but I think it?s much deeper than all> that. I think he?s revealing something about himself, an inability to> distinguish fact from fiction. Not all the time, of course, but when it> comes to personal matters. Bill Godshalk said he was a ?fabulator.? Yes,> but that?s a nice way to say he lied a lot.>> I recall the opening to the 1977 documentary about Durrell?s return to> Alexandria. The camera floats in from the sea and approaches the city with> its magnificent skyline. A voice intones those memorable words from> *Balthazar:* ?We saw, inverted in the sky, a full-scale mirage of the> city.? We see Durrell and assume the words are his, if not the voice.> Well, neither. The words are from the novel, but Durrell had stolen them,> without accreditation, from R. Talbot Kelly?s *Egypt: Painted and> Described* (1903). The author, however, appears to believe the> description was actually his.>> Bruce>>>>>> On May 15, 2015, at 12:43 PM, James Gifford > wrote:>> Hi Bruce,>> I do think this is where we disagree -- I don't have any particular grudge> against Tolkien for his misdirections, and I do think Durrell's> contradictory truths are a genuine perspective. For instance, the passage> you point to in the Quartet, and others like it, gesture to the> unresolvable nature of truth when we live in a world made up of subjects> observing 'reality' from a multitude of perspectives.>> As an example, did Justine ever love Darley, or was she merely using him> as a blind for her political interests, or for Pursewarden? It's probably> not a question to be answered, since the perspective changes it, including> Justine's retrospective self-observations.>> I suspect this is also the appeal of the popularized notions of relativity> or quantum strangeness for Durrell -- there are many contradictory> perspectives from which to view the world, but there's not "godly" position> at the centre from which to sort out absolute truth, and likewise there's> no fixed point at which the Enlightenment subject is eternally fixed,> instead leaving instead a protean process of subjectivity in its place.>> There are other lies as well, such as Durrell's BBC years, which I see as> an occasional part of his correspondences but a pervasive part of his> interviews. I suspect the interviews are almost all performance, and it> would be speculation to ask how much of the bafflegab around the truth> Durrell believed versus how much was a public persona for a private person.>> However, I personally don't pick up fiction to look for truth, or at least> not in any conventional sense. I trust the telling more than the tale, if> that's a fair way to put it, and the teller's involvement with the telling> & tale is suspect.>> All best,> James>> On 2015-05-15 12:19 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:>> James,>> Yes, authors lie, and so do many people. They do it for various> reasons, some excusable, some not. Durrell?s motives, however, I find> suspect. In fact, I think they?re pathological ? the man couldn?t> distinguish between truth and fiction, or chose not to, and then turned> that disposition into a philosophic principle: ?Truth is what most> contradicts itself in time.? In Haag?s /City of Memory,/ Eve Cohen says> this about him ? he?s not to be trusted; he?s a storyteller. Bill> Godshalk lying in order to describe lying, if I understand correctly, is> an example of the ?liars paradox.? Statements about lying ? ?I am> lying? ? are insolvable in terms of truth value, just as> Durrell?s/Balthazar?s statement about truth is contradictory. Now, we> can say this is a profound observation about the way things are, or we> can say there?s something wrong with the person who says and believes> it. I prefer the latter.>> Bruce>> _______________________________________________> ILDS mailing list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds>>>> _______________________________________________> ILDS mailing list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds>>-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Message: 6Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 08:01:32 +0530From: Sumantra Nag To: ilds at lists.uvic.caCc: James Gifford , Bruce Redwine Subject: Re: [ilds] Of course Tolkien was not being truthful_Durrell documentary of 1977Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"Can this documentary be accessed through the Net? I did read the articleabout his visit of 1977.SumantraSent from my Samsung TabOn 17 May 2015 01:46, "Bruce Redwine" wrote:> James,>> Stimulating response. Okay. We differ. I tend to treat Durrell?s> literary output as evidence for his personal philosophy. He?s a religious> writer, in my opinion. He has a view to propagate. His *Quartet,* as he> states in the note to *Balthazar,* is an ?investigation.? I take him at> his word (which presents problems, of course). He doesn?t say he writing> fiction with a moral, a story to instruct and amuse, Chaucer?s ?sentence?> and ?solaas.? He?s out to prove and demonstrate something. You might say> Durrell is in the great tradition of ?spiritual autobiography,? another> Bunyan and his *Pilgrim?s Progress.*>> So I don?t separate the man from his work. If all we had to go on about> Lawrence Durrell was his oeuvre, then your approach to ?truth? in his> writings makes sense. But we know a great deal about his life and> behavior, often from his many statements in various media. The dominant> impression I get from those ?communications? is a propensity to dissemble,> to prevaricate, and to lie. All of which resemble the *Quartet?s*> unstable world without certainties. You can say he?s creating a ?public> persona,? reprising his diplomatic role as Director of Public Relations or> just confounding ?the bastards,? but I think it?s much deeper than all> that. I think he?s revealing something about himself, an inability to> distinguish fact from fiction. Not all the time, of course, but when it> comes to personal matters. Bill Godshalk said he was a ?fabulator.? Yes,> but that?s a nice way to say he lied a lot.>> I recall the opening to the 1977 documentary about Durrell?s return to> Alexandria. The camera floats in from the sea and approaches the city with> its magnificent skyline. A voice intones those memorable words from> *Balthazar:* ?We saw, inverted in the sky, a full-scale mirage of the> city.? We see Durrell and assume the words are his, if not the voice.> Well, neither. The words are from the novel, but Durrell had stolen them,> without accreditation, from R. Talbot Kelly?s *Egypt: Painted and> Described* (1903). The author, however, appears to believe the> description was actually his.>> Bruce>>>>>> On May 15, 2015, at 12:43 PM, James Gifford > wrote:>> Hi Bruce,>> I do think this is where we disagree -- I don't have any particular grudge> against Tolkien for his misdirections, and I do think Durrell's> contradictory truths are a genuine perspective. For instance, the passage> you point to in the Quartet, and others like it, gesture to the> unresolvable nature of truth when we live in a world made up of subjects> observing 'reality' from a multitude of perspectives.>> As an example, did Justine ever love Darley, or was she merely using him> as a blind for her political interests, or for Pursewarden? It's probably> not a question to be answered, since the perspective changes it, including> Justine's retrospective self-observations.>> I suspect this is also the appeal of the popularized notions of relativity> or quantum strangeness for Durrell -- there are many contradictory> perspectives from which to view the world, but there's not "godly" position> at the centre from which to sort out absolute truth, and likewise there's> no fixed point at which the Enlightenment subject is eternally fixed,> instead leaving instead a protean process of subjectivity in its place.>> There are other lies as well, such as Durrell's BBC years, which I see as> an occasional part of his correspondences but a pervasive part of his> interviews. I suspect the interviews are almost all performance, and it> would be speculation to ask how much of the bafflegab around the truth> Durrell believed versus how much was a public persona for a private person.>> However, I personally don't pick up fiction to look for truth, or at least> not in any conventional sense. I trust the telling more than the tale, if> that's a fair way to put it, and the teller's involvement with the telling> & tale is suspect.>> All best,> James>> On 2015-05-15 12:19 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:>> James,>> Yes, authors lie, and so do many people. They do it for various> reasons, some excusable, some not. Durrell?s motives, however, I find> suspect. In fact, I think they?re pathological ? the man couldn?t> distinguish between truth and fiction, or chose not to, and then turned> that disposition into a philosophic principle: ?Truth is what most> contradicts itself in time.? In Haag?s /City of Memory,/ Eve Cohen says> this about him ? he?s not to be trusted; he?s a storyteller. Bill> Godshalk lying in order to describe lying, if I understand correctly, is> an example of the ?liars paradox.? Statements about lying ? ?I am> lying? ? are insolvable in terms of truth value, just as> Durrell?s/Balthazar?s statement about truth is contradictory. Now, we> can say this is a profound observation about the way things are, or we> can say there?s something wrong with the person who says and believes> it. I prefer the latter.>> Bruce>> _______________________________________________> ILDS mailing list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds>>>> _______________________________________________> ILDS mailing list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds>>-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Message: 7Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 12:36:56 +1000From: "Denise Tart & David Green" To: "Bruce Redwine" , Cc: Durrel Subject: [ilds] Caesar's Vast Ghost, review by Bobby Matheme, 2002Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"To read Durrell's book is to wander through Caesar's vast ghost, Provence, and to become intimately familiar with its many Roman aspects. He writes of Provence as though it were a 2,000 year old suburb of Rome where its retired generals and consuls moved to escape the hurl-burly of city life. To wander through Provence is to quaff it heady brew: wine, that ubiquitous concoction - whether it be of "poor contrivance" or a connoisseur's choice. One is ready to accept his friend Aldo's declaration that "everything really desirable has come about because of, or in spite of, wine!"One stands in awe of the fabled aqueduct with the graceful arches, Pont du Gard, and is reminded once again of the Roman presence in Provence. As Durrell said, "It is obvious that the country is a funnel through which almost every race, ancient and modern, has marched either towards or away from, a war." A land of unlikely contrasts, where you can as easily find signs of bull worship as Buffalo Bill worship. Tombs of beloved poets beside tombs of their beloved pets. Great winds that rake the land named "mistral", of both atmospheric and poetic origin. Amphitheaters, ruins, relics, ancient coins and pottery shards greet you at every turn of the road or the shovel. From the fragile black past of Celtic ware to the golden Greek pottery light enough to float in water.Like a great continental palimpsest of European cultures, Provence awaits your pleasure. Come early, leave late, and taste the abundant delights. And while you await passage to Provence, wherever you are, prop open this gorgeous book and imbibe large intoxicating draughts of its fragrant bouquet. In brilliant color and picturesque story, Caesar's vast ghost is proffered to be quaffed like a highly contrived dry red wine to stave off the prolonged drought before arrival on the sunny shores of the Rhone.David Green16 William StreetMarrickville NSW 2204+61 2 9564 61650412 707 625-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Message: 8Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 08:09:15 +0530From: Sumantra Nag To: James Gifford Cc: Charles Sligh , ilds at lists.uvic.ca, alfandary at gmail.com, Bruce Redwine , Richard Pine Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue 15Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"Why not, James?SumantraSent from my Samsung TabIndeed, it may even be 29 pp. or more... But I'll not mention that on thelist.-JamesOn 2015-05-17 8:15 AM, Sumantra Nag wrote:> Is there a massive tail of messages from a Digest here?>> Sumantra>> Sent from my Asus Zenfone>> On 17 May 2015 18:37, > wrote:>> This statement: "I don't have any particular grudge against Tolkien> for his misdirections" is pointless, meaningless and pathetically> naive, What if anything does it mean? What are Tolkien's> "misdirections" and, if it could be established that they exist(ed),> why should anyone "have a grudge"?> On the subject of mendacity, consider the Cretan paradox which has> exercised philosophers, logicians and even mathematicians since at> least 600 BC: a Cretan tells you ?All Cretans are liars?. This means> that the speaker is a liar; so how do you believe him? If he is to> be believed ? which on his own admission he isn?t ? then Cretans are> truthful, thus disproving his statement. If the statement is true,> then it is false; if it is false, then it is true. The paradox> illustrates perfectly the difficulty in discovering the truth or> otherwise of any given situation. As Lawrence Durrell put it: ?to> accept two contradictory ideas as simultaneously true?. The beauty> of the paradox ? and all paradoxes are beautiful ? lies in its> circularity.> Richard Pine> Durrell Library of Corfu>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------>>> -----Original Message-----> *From:* ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> > [mailto:ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> ]> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2015 03:00 PM> *To:* ilds at lists.uvic.ca > *Subject:* ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue 15>> Send ILDS mailing list submissions to ilds at lists.uvic.ca> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the> World Wide Web, visit> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds or, via email, send> a message with subject or body 'help' to> ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca > You can reach the person managing the list at> ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca When> replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific> than "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Of> course Tolkien was not being truthful (Bruce Redwine) 2. Re: Of> course Tolkien was not being truthful (James Gifford) 3. Re:> ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue 14 (mail at durrelllibrarycorfu.org> ) 4. Re: Of course Tolkien> was not being truthful (dtart at bigpond.net.au> ) 5. Re: Of course Tolkien was not> being truthful (Bruce Redwine) 6. Re: Of course Tolkien was not> being truthful (Sumantra Nag) 7. missing messages & digest> options (James Gifford) 8. Re: Durrell?s Characters (Sumantra> Nag) 9. Re: Durrell?s Characters (Sumantra Nag) 10. Re: Of> course Tolkien was not being truthful (dtart at bigpond.net.au> ) 11. Re: Of course Tolkien was not> being truthful (Bruce Redwine) 12. Re: Durrell?s Characters> (Merrianne) 13. Re: Of course Tolkien was not being truthful> (david wilde) 14. Re: Durrell?s Characters (Bruce Redwine) 15.> Tolkien's truthiness (James Gifford) 16. Re: Tolkien's> truthiness (Bruce Redwine) 17. Re: Tolkien's truthiness (James> Gifford)>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------> Message: 1 Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 12:19:55 -0700 From: Bruce> Redwine __ To: james.d.gifford at gmail.com> , ilds at lists.uvic.ca> Cc: Bruce Redwine __ Subject: Re:> [ilds] Of course Tolkien was not being truthful Message-ID:> <62CE8989-899A-4E6A-8545-EBFED872295E at earthlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" James, Yes,> authors lie, and so do many people. They do it for various> reasons, some excusable, some not. Durrell?s motives, however, I> find suspect. In fact, I think they?re pathological ? the man> couldn?t distinguish between truth and fiction, or chose not to,> and then turned that disposition into a philosophic principle:> ?Truth is what most contradicts itself in time.? In Haag?s City> of Memory, Eve Cohen says this about him ? he?s not to be> trusted; he?s a storyteller. Bill Godshalk lying in order to> describe lying, if I understand correctly, is an example of the> ?liars paradox.? Statements about lying ? ?I am lying? ? are> insolvable in terms of truth value, just as> Durrell?s/Balthazar?s statement about truth is contradictory.> Now, we can say this is a profound observation about the way> things are, or we can say there?s something wrong with the> person who says and believes it. I prefer the latter. Bruce > On> May 15, 2015, at 10:42 AM, James Gifford __ wrote: > > Hi Bruce,> > > Check your spam folder -- I just checked mine in gmail, and> the message was there (likely either the email address has been> flagged for some reason or else the quoting of the entire digest> set off the filter). > > As for Tolkien, he also maintained the> wars didn't influence the books, which is just as ridiculous as> saying Wagner has no kinship. A good friend wrote his honours> thesis on Tolkien and has always told me to distrust the author,> but Charles Sligh is our resident expert on ents, Porius, and> all things fantastical. > > I'm reminded of an exchange of> letters I had with Mary Stewart, asking if there was any> influence from Durrell on her Corfu novel -- she said no, but> isn't Durrell fascinating for.... and then it went into a> demonstration of just how closely she'd been reading Old D. > >> Authors lie. So do most people. And intentions change in> retrospect. I wish I could read Bill tapping out a lie to> describe an author lying... One can simply think of Durrell's> interview with Muggeridge on the BCC CD of Durrell recordings> from the centenary -- something to the effect of "During my> years with the BBC" followed by "And when was that, Larry?" Of> course there were none... > > But even Durrell's advice in> /Personal Landscape/ (the section we've already discussed in> /Elephant/) sets the poet, public, and poem as distinct> entities. I can't imagine he'd feel different about fiction. The> poet's interests are not the same as the public's nor the poem's> and have no greater (or lesser) force either. > > James Clawson,> Fiona Tomkinson, and I talk about some ideas akin to this in our> introduction to /Archives & Networks of Modernism/: > >> http://www.theglobalreview.net/?page_id=11 __ > > All best, >> James > > On 2015-05-15 10:04 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >> For> some reason I didn?t get Richard Pine?s recent message (below)> to >> the ILDS Listserv. Anyway, I agree with Ken?s> implications, namely, an >> author?s intentions or motives bear> looking into. Seems to me it?s all >> fair game, that is, how> one chooses to look at a piece of literature: >> as an> autonomous unit in the spirit of the New Criticism (the ?Verbal> >> Icon?) or as a creation deeply indebted to its creator and> his/her >> motives (conscious or not). ?Sink or skim,? as> Durrell himself says. I >> prefer to sink, but that?s simply my> preference. I can now hear Bill >> Godshalk?s voice interrupting> me about the utter impossibility of >> determining anyone?s> ?intentions.? >> >> Bruce >> >> >> >> >> >>> On May 15, 2015, at> 9:21 AM, Kennedy Gammage >>> __ __>> wrote: >>> >>> When he> denied a connection to Wagner he was being defensive and >>>> disingenuous, lying in other words - just like you know who was> wont >>> to do! >>> >>> I enjoyed re-reading this piece from the> NYT about the Wagner-Tolkien >>> connection: >>>>> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/12/22/the-ring-and-the-rings> __ >>> >>> Cheers - Ken >> _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing> list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca __ >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __ --------------> next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:> __ ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 15 May> 2015 12:43:10 -0700 From: James Gifford __ To:> ilds at lists.uvic.ca Subject: Re:> [ilds] Of course Tolkien was not being truthful Message-ID:> <55564C4E.50405 at gmail.com >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Hi> Bruce, I do think this is where we disagree -- I don't have any> particular grudge against Tolkien for his misdirections, and I> do think Durrell's contradictory truths are a genuine> perspective. For instance, the passage you point to in the> Quartet, and others like it, gesture to the unresolvable nature> of truth when we live in a world made up of subjects observing> 'reality' from a multitude of perspectives. As an example, did> Justine ever love Darley, or was she merely using him as a blind> for her political interests, or for Pursewarden? It's probably> not a question to be answered, since the perspective changes it,> including Justine's retrospective self-observations. I suspect> this is also the appeal of the popularized notions of relativity> or quantum strangeness for Durrell -- there are many> contradictory perspectives from which to view the world, but> there's not "godly" position at the centre from which to sort> out absolute truth, and likewise there's no fixed point at which> the Enlightenment subject is eternally fixed, instead leaving> instead a protean process of subjectivity in its place. There> are other lies as well, such as Durrell's BBC years, which I see> as an occasional part of his correspondences but a pervasive> part of his interviews. I suspect the interviews are almost all> performance, and it would be speculation to ask how much of the> bafflegab around the truth Durrell believed versus how much was> a public persona for a private person. However, I personally> don't pick up fiction to look for truth, or at least not in any> conventional sense. I trust the telling more than the tale, if> that's a fair way to put it, and the teller's involvement with> the telling & tale is suspect. All best, James On 2015-05-15> 12:19 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > James, > > Yes, authors lie,> and so do many people. They do it for various > reasons, some> excusable, some not. Durrell?s motives, however, I find >> suspect. In fact, I think they?re pathological ? the man> couldn?t > distinguish between truth and fiction, or chose not> to, and then turned > that disposition into a philosophic> principle: ?Truth is what most > contradicts itself in time.? In> Haag?s /City of Memory,/ Eve Cohen says > this about him ? he?s> not to be trusted; he?s a storyteller. Bill > Godshalk lying in> order to describe lying, if I understand correctly, is > an> example of the ?liars paradox.? Statements about lying ? ?I am >> lying? ? are insolvable in terms of truth value, just as >> Durrell?s/Balthazar?s statement about truth is contradictory.> Now, we > can say this is a profound observation about the way> things are, or we > can say there?s something wrong with the> person who says and believes > it. I prefer the latter. > >> Bruce ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 15> May 2015 20:36:39 +0000 From: mail at durrelllibrarycorfu.org> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca> Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol> 97, Issue 14 Message-ID: __ Content-Type: text/plain;> charset="us-ascii" Tolkien was too complicated to lie. RP> -----Original Message----- From: ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> > [mailto:ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> ] Sent: Friday, May 15, 2015> 03:01 PM To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Subject: ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue 14 Send ILDS mailing list> submissions to ilds at lists.uvic.caTo subscribe or unsubscribe via> the World Wide Web, visit> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ildsor, via email, send a> message with subject or body 'help' to> ilds-request at lists.uvic.caYou can reach the person managing the> list at ilds-owner at lists.uvic.caWhen replying, please edit your> Subject line so it is more specificthan "Re: Contents of ILDS> digest..."Today's Topics: 1. Re: ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue 13> (mail at durrelllibrarycorfu.org> ) 2. Re: Of course Tolkien> was not being truthful (Bruce Redwine) 3. Re: Of course Tolkien> was not being truthful (James>> Gifford)----------------------------------------------------------------------Message:> 1Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 08:04:05 +0000From:> mail at durrelllibrarycorfu.orgTo: ilds at lists.uvic.caSubject: Re:> [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue 13Message-ID: Content-Type:> text/plain; charset="us-ascii"Concerning the "origins" or> "models" for various characters in fiction, there are,! of> course, many obvious sources for LD's characters and many more> oblique. One has only to look at real-life names of the Quartet> period such as Scobie and Maskelyne to realise this. But I tend> to take Humphrey Carpenter's observation about searching for> Tolkien's sources, that "one learns little by raking through a> compost heap to see what dead plants originally went into it.Far> better to observe its effect on the new and growing plants that> it is enriching". Or Tolkien's own remark when asked whether his> "Lord of the Rings" and Wagner's Nibelungelied had anything in> common: "both are round, and that's where the similarity> ends".Richard PineDurrell Library of Corfu -----Original> Message-----From: ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> > [mailto:ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> ]Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2015> 03:00 PMTo: ilds at lists.uvic.caSubject: ILDS Digest, Vol 97,> Issue 13Send ILDS mailing list submissions to> ilds at lists.uvic.caTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide> Web, visit https:/! /lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ildsor> , via email, send> a message with subject or body 'help' to> ilds-request at lists.uvic.caYou can reach the person managing the> list at ilds-owner at lists.uvic.caWhen replying, please edit your> Subject line so it is more specificthan "Re: Contents of ILDS> digest..."Today's Topics: 1. photo solutions (Joe) 2. Durrell?s> Characters (Kennedy Gammage) 3. Re: Durrell?s Characters (James> Gifford) 4. Re: ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue 12> (mail at durrelllibrarycorfu.org> ) 5. Re: Durrell?s> Characters (Bruce Redwine) 6. Re: ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue 12> (Bruce>> Redwine)----------------------------------------------------------------------Message:> 1Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 18:41:28 +0200From: "Joe" To:> ilds at lists.uvic.caSubject: [ilds] photo solutionsMessage-ID:> <7456bdcc250f544e10eb4d7d522e5a47 at quora.com> >Content-Type:> text/plain;> format=flowed; c! harset="UTF-8"Hope you are doing well!We> provide photo editing:Ecommerce photos editing, jewelry photos> retouching, beauty and skin imageretouching, etcQuality is> goodTurnaround time fastWe! are 7/24/365 availableYou may send> us a test photo to judge our quality.Best regards,JoeEmail:> songedit at tom.com------------------------------Message: 2Date:> Wed, 13 May 2015 19:09:52 -0700From: Kennedy Gammage To:> ilds at lists.uvic.caSubject: [ilds] Durrell?s> CharactersMessage-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;> charset="utf-8"I?m not widely read in Saul Bellow (I enjoyed> Humbolt?s Gift, which lead meto Delmore Schwartz) but I am> reading a lot about Bellow now because ofLeader?s new bio ? and> there are some contrasts or parallels we can makewith our> friend. Louis Menand?s YOUNG SAUL article in the May 11 issue> ofThe New Yorker says ?From the beginning, Bellow drew on people> he knew,including his wives and girlfriends and the members of> his own family, forhis characters.? Maybe this statement app!> lies to all writers (?write whatyou know?) ? but I?m not sure it> applies to Durrell so much.How many characters are there in the> Quartet, and how many can you draw aline to, linking a cha!> racter to a person Durrell knew? We were justdiscussing Clea,> Justine and Melissa ? but Durrell had a finite number ofwives,> and there are literally dozens of characters. According to> Menand?sreview, ??Herzog? is a revenge novel.? To a ridiculous> extent! Not only arethe characters directly linked to> friends/wives/lovers ? but many of thesepeople favorably> reviewed the novel, as if it didn?t apply to them.I really think> Durrell is a different animal: someone who conjuredcharacters> out of his head like Zeus! Who is the real Constance? Answerthat> and I?ll buy you a drink at the next OMG!Cheers -> Ken-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was> scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Message: 3Date:> Wed, 13 May 2015 21:36:07 -0700From: James Gifford To:> ilds at lists.uvic.caSubject: Re: [ilds] Durrell?s> CharactersMessage-ID: <55542637.2010307 at gm! ail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252;> format=flowedOn 2015-05-13 7:09 PM, Kennedy Gammage wrote:> Who> is the real Constance? Answer> that and I?ll buy you a drink at> t! he next OMG!Lawrence Durrell?More seriously, enjoy the> Bellow! Grand works to leap> into.Best,James------------------------------Message: 4Date:> Thu, 14 May 2015 07:40:28 +0000From:> mail at durrelllibrarycorfu.orgTo: ilds at lists.uvic.caSubject: Re:> [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue 12Message-ID: Content-Type:> text/plain; charset="us-ascii"LDurrell's recall of proper names> was both erratic and playful (he called "Travel and Leisure"> "Tailor and Cutter" for example, - both exist of course) so it's> possible that he did write (at least in his imagination) such an> article. However, the idea that "relations" might have a sexual> connotation is absurd. Does everyone who writes for "Foreign> Affairs" think they are connubing exoterically? And I doubt very> much whether shedding light on this student's query ! could add> significantly to a reading of "Bitter Lemons" - that is merely> academic wishful non-thinking.Richard PineDurrell Library of> Corfu-----Original Message-----From: ilds-request!> @lists.uvic.ca > [mailto:ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> ]Sent: Wednesday, May 13,> 2015 03:02 PMTo: ilds at lists.uvic.caSubject: ILDS Digest, Vol 97,> Issue 12Send ILDS mailing list submissions to> ilds at lists.uvic.caTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide> Web, visit https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ildsor, via> email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to> ilds-request at lists.uvic.caYou can reach the person managing the> list at ilds-owner at lists.uvic.caWhen replying, please edit your> Subject line so it is more specificthan "Re: Contents of ILDS> digest..."Today's Topics: 1. query | Durrell on Cyprus &> international relations articles (James Gifford) 2. Re: query |> Durrell on Cyprus & international relations articles (Bruce>> Redwine)----------------------------------------------------------------------Message:> 1Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 22:50:06 -0700From: James Gi! fford To:> ILDS Listserv Subject: [ilds] query | Durrell on Cyprus &> international relations articlesMessage-ID:> <5552E60E.4000905 at gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain;> charset=utf-8; ! format=flowedHello all,Does anyone have> anything to suggest for this query, belo! w, from a graduate> student working on diplomats & Cyprus? Please respond to the> Durrell listserv or directly to me if you wish (I'm also copying> this to people not on the listserv [sorry for any duplication]).> I'm glad to put anyone interested in direct contact with the> student too. > In Bitter Lemons Durrell talks about writing an >> article for an 'American Institute of > International> Relations'. Do you know whether > this article is documented> anywhere? I have > tried in collaboration with a couple of >> librarians here at Harvard to identify the > Institute in> question and any relevant archives > but have been> unsuccessful.The passage in question reads: "I was commissioned> to write a series of articles on the iss! ue [of British> misunderstandings of the Greekness of Cyprus] for an American> Institute of International Relations bulletin - a distasteful> task, for I dislike writing about politi! cs. Yet the money> would buy me a door and a window for the balcony room, and I> knew ! no better way of earning it."My personal suspicion is> that this is tongue in cheek (international "relations"): a> reference to LD's Antrobus stories for Playboy magazine, which> paid very well at the time... That said, I would be absolutely> delighted to be proven wrong and for some new texts to come to> light! They might, of course, also be unpublished, if they> exist. Work on this specific topic could significant shape> readings of /Bitter Lemons/.Any suggestions are greatly> appreciated, and please do share with everyone. I'll make sure> any listserv comments are forwarded on.All> best,James------------------------------Message: 2Date: Wed, 13> May 2015 07:02:13 -0700From: Bruce Redwine To:> james.d.gifford at gmail.com ,> ilds at lists.uvic.caCc: Bruce Redwine Subject: Re: [ilds] query |> Durrell o! n Cyprus & international relations> articlesMessage-ID:> <50CE571F-FD16-4909-A1D2-C92CA56694B8 at earthlink.net> >>Content-Type:> text/plain; charset="utf-8"I agree with James. Durrell?s!> reference to an ?American Institute of International Relations?> is most likely bogus. T! he graduate student?s assumptions,> however, are instructive. He or she quite reasonably assumes> that Durrell?s travel book is based on fact. As has been> discussed before on this Listserv, much of Durrell?s travel> literature is invented, and here I include everything from> Prospero?s Cell to Caesar?s Vast Ghost. He likes to tell a good> story and has no qualms about embellishing his narrative with> invented ?facts.? Why an ?American Institute of International> Relations?? The reference supports his bona fides as an> experienced diplomat and anticipates his work at the British> embassy on Cyprus as a ?Public Relations? director. A sexual pun> on ?relations,? as James suggests, may also be at work.Bruce> On> May 12, 2015, ! at 10:50 PM, James Gifford wrote:> > Hello all,>> > Does anyone have anything to suggest for this query, below,> from a graduate student working on diplomats & Cyprus? Please> re! spond to the Durrell listserv or directly to me if you wish> (I'm also copying this to peopl! e not on the listserv [sorry> for any duplication]). I'm glad to put anyone interested in> direct contact with the student too.> > > In Bitter Lemons> Durrell talks about writing an> > article for an 'American> Institute of> > International Relations'. Do you know whether> >> this article is documented anywhere? I have> > tried in> collaboration with a couple of> > librarians here at Harvard to> identify the> > Institute in question and any relevant archives>> > but have been unsuccessful.> > The passage in question reads:> "I was commissioned to write a series of articles on the issue> [of British misunderstandings of the Greekness of Cyprus] for an> American Institute of International Relations bulletin - a> distasteful task, for I dislike writing about politics. Yet the> money would buy me ! a door and a window for the balcony room,> and I knew no better way of earning it."> > My personal> suspicion is that this is tongue in cheek (international> "relations"): a re! ference to LD's Antrobus stories for Playboy> magazine, which paid very well at the time... That! said, I> would be absolutely delighted to be proven wrong and for some> new texts to come to light! They might, of course, also be> unpublished, if they exist. Work on this specific topic could> significant shape readings of /Bitter Lemons/.> > Any> suggestions are greatly appreciated, and please do share with> everyone. I'll make sure any listserv comments are forwarded> on.> > All best,> James>> _______________________________________________> ILDS mailing> list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds-------------- next> part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL:> ------------------------------Subject: Digest> Footer_______________________________________________ILDS> mailing list!> ILDS at lists.uvic.cahttps://> lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds------------------------------End> <> http://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds------------------------------End> >> of ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue> 12************************************--------! ------ next part> --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL:> ------------------------------Message: 5Date: Thu, 14 May 2015> 07:53:45 -0700From: Bruce Redwine To: ilds at lists.uvic.caCc:> Bruce Redwine Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell?s> CharactersMessage-ID:> <920EB077-932A-45D6-A964-33FF62E22A54 at earthlink.net> >>Content-Type:> text/plain; charset="utf-8"Charles Dickens is usually praised> for the variety and profusion of his characterizations. I don?t> think of Durrell as another Dickens. His many characterizations> seem connected, seem to have a common origin. So we have Count> D. Durrell once joked in an interview that he himself was> Justine. Was it entirely a joke? Sappho Jane saw herself as the> prototype for Livia. Here we may have characterization by> consanguinity. I would argue (and have) that even subsidiary> characters such as Da Capo, Toto de Brunel, and Memlik Pasha> have asp! ects of their creator. Perhaps the ?old pirate? and> his ?tendencies? should also be included. And maybe old LD is> the ?real Constance.? That may have appealed to Sappho !> Jane.Bruce> On May 13, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Kennedy Gammage wrote:>> > I?m not widely read in Saul Bellow (I enjoyed Humbolt?s Gift,> which lead me to Delmore Schwartz) but I am reading a lot about> Bellow now because of Leader?s new bio ? and there are some> contrasts or parallels we can make with our friend. Louis> Menand?s YOUNG SAUL article in the May 11 issue of The New> Yorker says ?From the beginning, Bellow drew on people he knew,> including his wives and girlfriends and the members of his own> family, for his characters.? Maybe this statement applies to all> writers (?write what you know?) ? but I?m not sure it applies to> Durrell so much.> > How many characters are there in the> Quartet, and how many can you draw a line to, linking a> character to a person Durrell knew? We were just discussing> Clea, Justine and ! Melissa ? but Durrell had a finite number of> wives, and there are literally dozens of characters. According> to Menand?s review, ??Herzog? is a revenge novel.? To a ridi!> culous extent! Not only are the characters directly linked to> friends/wives/lovers ? but many of these people favorably> reviewed the novel, as if it didn?t apply to them.> > I really> think Durrell is a different animal: someone who conjured> characters out of his head like Zeus! Who is the real Constance?> Answer that and I?ll buy you a drink at the next OMG!> > Cheers> - Ken> > _______________________________________________> ILDS> mailing list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds-------------- next> part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL:> ------------------------------Message: 6Date: Thu, 14 May 2015> 08:21:54 -0700From: Bruce Redwine To: ilds at lists.uvic.caCc:> Bruce Redwine Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue> 12Message-ID:> <4C349BFB-D0AE-46C2-9D61-224961D1FA69 at earthlink.net> >>Content-Type:> text/plain; charset="utf-8"In American ! English, the plural> noun relations has a definite sexual connotation. ?Dick and Jane> have relations? connotes sexual activity. I could not, however,> find that sense i! n the OED. It doesn?t seem farfetched to me> that Durrell was aware of this sexual sense, and it would seem> to appeal to his sense of humor, especially when applied to> diplomacy.Bruce> On May 14, 2015, at 12:40 AM,> mail at durrelllibrarycorfu.org> wrote:> > LDurrell's> recall of proper names was both erratic and playful (he called> "Travel and Leisure" "Tailor and Cutter" for example, - both> exist of course) so it's possible that he did write (at least in> his imagination) such an article. However, the idea that> "relations" might have a sexual connotation is absurd. Does> everyone who writes for "Foreign Affairs" think they are> connubing exoterically? And I doubt very much whether shedding> light on this student's query could add significantly to a> reading of "Bitter Lemons" - that is merely academic wishful> non-thinking! .> Richard Pine> Durrell Library of Corfu>> -----Original Message-----> From: ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> > [mailto:ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> ]> Sent: Wednesday, May 13! ,> 2015 03:02 PM> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca> > Subject: ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue> 12> > Send ILDS mailing list submissions to ilds at lists.uvic.ca> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the> World Wide Web, visit> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds or, via email, send> a message with subject or body 'help' to> ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca > You can reach the person managing the list at> ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca When> replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific> than "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..." Today's Topics: 1. query |> Durrell on Cyprus & international relations articles (James> Gifford) 2. Re: query | Durrell on Cyprus & international> relations articles (Bruce Redwine)>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------> Message: 1 Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 22:50:06 -0700 From: James> Gifford To: ILDS Listserv Subject: [ilds] query | Durrell on> Cyprus & intern! ational relations articles Message-ID:> <5552E60E.4000905 at gmail.com >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Hello> all, Does anyone have anything to! suggest for! this query,> below, from a graduate student working on diplomats & Cyprus?> Please respond to the Durrell listserv or directly to me if you> wish (I'm also copying this to people not on the listserv [sorry> for any duplication]). I'm glad to put anyone interested in> direct contact with the student too. > In Bitter Lemons Durrell> talks about writing an > article for an 'American Institute of >> International Relations'. Do you know whether > this article is> documented anywhere? I have > tried in collaboration with a> couple of > librarians here at Harvard to identify the >> Institute in question and any relevant archives > but have been> unsuccessful. The passage in question reads: "I was commissioned> to write a series of articles on the issue [of British> misunderstandings of the Greekness of Cyprus] for an Am! erican> Institute of International Relations bulletin - a distasteful> task, for I dislike writing about politics. Yet the money would> buy me a door and a window ! for the balcony! room, and I knew> no better way of earning it." My personal suspicion is that this> is tongue in cheek (international "relations"): a reference to> LD's Antrobus stories for Playboy magazine, which paid very well> at the time... That said, I would be absolutely delighted to be> proven wrong and for some new texts to come to light! They> might, of course, also be unpublished, if they exist. Work on> this specific topic could significant shape readings of /Bitter> Lemons/. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated, and please do> share with everyone. I'll make sure any listserv comments are> forwarded on. All best, James ------------------------------> Message: 2 Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 07:02:13 -0700 From: Bruce> Redwine To: james.d.gifford at gmail.com> , ilds at lists.uvic.ca> Cc: Bruce Redwine Subject: Re:> [ilds] query | Durrell on Cyprus & international relations> articles Message-ID: <50CE5!> 71F-FD16-4909-A1D2-C92CA56694B8 at earthlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I agree with James.> Durrell?s reference to an ?American Institute of ! International> Rela! tions? is most likely bogus. The graduate student?s> assumptions, however, are instructive. He or she quite> reasonably assumes that Durrell?s travel book is based on fact.> As has been discussed before on this Listserv, much of Durrell?s> travel literature is invented, and here I include everything> from Prospero?s Cell to Caesar?s Vast Ghost. He likes to tell a> good story and has no qualms about embellishing his narrative> with invented ?facts.? Why an ?American Institute of> International Relations?? The reference supports his bona fides> as an experienced diplomat and anticipates his work at the> British embassy on Cyprus as a ?Public Relations? director. A> sexual pun on ?relations,? as James suggests, may also be at> work. Bruce > On May 12, 2015, at 10:50 PM, James Gifford wrote:> > > Hello all, > > Does! anyone have anything to suggest for> this query, below, from a graduate student working on diplomats> & Cyprus? Please respond to the Durrell listserv or dire! ctly> to me if you wis! h (I'm also copying this to people not on the> listserv [sorry for any duplication]). I'm glad to put anyone> interested in direct contact with the student too. > > > In> Bitter Lemons Durrell talks about writing an > > article for an> 'American Institute of > > International Relations'. Do you know> whether > > this article is documented anywhere? I have > >> tried in collaboration with a couple of > > librarians here at> Harvard to identify the > > Institute in question and any> relevant archives > > but have been unsuccessful. > > The> passage in question reads: "I was commissioned to write a series> of articles on the issue [of British misunderstandings of the> Greekness of Cyprus] for an American Institute of International> Relations bulletin - a distasteful task, for I dislike writing> about politics. Yet the money would buy me a door and a window> for the balcony room, and ! I knew no better way of earning it."> > > My personal suspicion is that this is tongue in cheek> (international "relations"): a reference to LD's Antrobus st!> ories for Playboy magazin! e, which paid very well at the> time... That said, I would be absolutely delighted to be proven> wrong and for some new texts to come to light! They might, of> course, also be unpublished, if they exist. Work on this> specific topic could significant shape readings of /Bitter> Lemons/. > > Any suggestions are greatly appreciated, and please> do share with everyone. I'll make sure any listserv comments are> forwarded on. > > All best, > James >> _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing> list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next> part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:> ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer> _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing> list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lis!> ts.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds> > ------------------------------ End of ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue> 12 ************************************> ______________!> _________________________________> ILDS mailing list>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds-------------- next> part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL:> ------------------------------Subject: Digest> Footer_______________________________________________ILDS> mailing> listILDS at lists.uvic.cahttps://> lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds------------------------------End> <> http://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds------------------------------End> >> of ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue> 13************************************-------------- next part> --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL:> ------------------------------Message: 2Date: Fri, 15 May 2015> 10:04:32 -0700From: Bruce Redwine To: Durrell list Cc: Ken> Gammage , Bruce Redwine , David Green Subject: Re: [ilds] Of> course Tolkien was not being truthfulMessage-ID:> <116B8DD9-F24A-4DD5-AD34-2CE7B830BD37 at earthlink.net> >>Content-Type:> text/plain; charset="utf-8"For some reason I didn?t get Richard> Pine?s recent message (below) to the ILDS Listserv. Anyway, I> agree with Ken?s implications, namely, an author?s intentions or> motives bear looki! ng into. Seems to me it?s all fair game,> that is, how one chooses to look at a piece of literature: as an> autonomous unit in the spirit of the New Criticism (the ?Verbal> Icon?) or as a creation deeply indebted to its creator and> his/her motives (conscious or not). ?Sink or skim,? as Durrell> himself says. I prefer to sink, but that?s simply my preference.> I can now hear Bill Godshalk?s voice interrupting me about the> utter impossibility of determining anyone?s ?intentions.?Bruce>> On May 15, 2015, at 9:21 AM, Kennedy Gammage wrote:> > When he> denied a connection to Wagner he was being defensive and> disingenuous, lying in other words - just like you know who was> wont to do!> > I enjoyed re-reading this piece from the NYT> about the Wagner-Tolkien connection: >>> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/12/22/the-ring-and-the-rings> > > Cheers - Ken> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------->> From: >> Date: Fri, May 15, 2015 at 1:04 AM> Subject: Re: [ilds]> ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue! 13> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca> > > > Concerning the "origins" or> "models" for various characters in fiction, there are, of> course, many obvious sources for LD's characters and many more> oblique. One has only to look at real-life names of the Quartet> period such as Scobie and Maskelyne to realise this. But I tend> to take Humphrey Carpenter's observation about searching for> Tolkien's sources, that "one learns little by raking through a> compost heap to see what dead plants originally went into it.Far> better to observe its effect on the new and growing plants that> it is enriching". Or Tolkien's own remark when asked whether his> "Lord of the Rings" and Wagner's Nibelungelied had anything in> common: "both are round, and that's where the similarity ends".>> Richard Pine> -------------- next part --------------An HTML> attachment was scrubbed...URL:> ------------------------------Message: 3Date: Fri, 15 May 2015> 10:42:48 -0700From: James Gifford To: ilds at lists.uvic.caSubject:> Re: [ilds] Of course Tolkien was not being truthfulMessage-ID:> <55563018.9080200 at g! mail.com >Content-Type:> text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowedHi Bruce,Check> your spam folder -- I just checked mine in gmail, and the> message was there (likely either the email address has been> flagged for some reason or else the quoting of the entire digest> set off the filter).As for Tolkien, he also maintained the wars> didn't influence the books, which is just as ridiculous as> saying Wagner has no kinship. A good friend wrote his honours> thesis on Tolkien and has always told me to distrust the author,> but Charles Sligh is our resident expert on ents, Porius, and> all things fantastical.I'm reminded of an exchange of letters I> had with Mary Stewart, asking if there was any influence from> Durrell on her Corfu novel -- she said no, but isn't Durrell> fascinating for.... and then it went into a demonstration of> just how closely she'd been reading Old D.Authors lie. So do> most people. And intentions change in retrospect. I wish I could> read Bill tapping out a lie to des! cribe an author lying... One> can simply think of Durrell's interview with Muggeridge on the> BCC CD of Durrell recordings from the centenary -- something to> the effect of "During my years with the BBC" followed by "And> when was that, Larry?" Of course there were none...But even> Durrell's advice in /Personal Landscape/ (the section we've> already discussed in /Elephant/) sets the poet, public, and poem> as distinct entities. I can't imagine he'd feel different about> fiction. The poet's interests are not the same as the public's> nor the poem's and have no greater (or lesser) force> either.James Clawson, Fiona Tomkinson, and I talk about some> ideas akin to this in our introduction to /Archives & Networks> of Modernism/:http://www.theglobalreview.net/?page_id=11All> best,JamesOn 2015-05-15 10:04 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:> For some> reason I didn?t get Richard Pine?s recent message (below) to>> the ILDS Listserv. Anyway, I agree with Ken?s implications,> namely, an> author?s intentions or motives bear looking into.> Seems to me it?s all> fair game, that is, h! ow one chooses to> look at a piece of literature:> as an autonomous unit in the> spirit of the New Criticism (the ?Verbal> Icon?) or as a> creation deeply indebted to its creator and his/her> motives> (conscious or not). ?Sink or skim,? as Durrell himself says. I>> prefer to sink, but that?s simply my preference. I can now hear> Bill> Godshalk?s voice interrupting me about the utter> impossibility of> determining anyone?s ?intentions.?>>> Bruce>>>>>>> On May 15, 2015, at 9:21 AM, Kennedy Gammage>> >> wrote:>>>> When he denied a connection to Wagner he was being> defensive and>> disingenuous, lying in other words - just like> you know who was wont>> to do!>>>> I enjoyed re-reading this> piece from the NYT about the Wagner-Tolkien>> connection:>>>> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/12/22/the-ring-and-the-rings>>>>> Cheers - Ken------------------------------Subject: Digest> Footer_______________________________________________ILDS> mailing listILDS at lists.uvic.cahttps://lists.uvic.ca/mailm> !> an/listinfo/ilds------------------------------End of ILDS> Digest, Vol 97, Issue 14************************************> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was> scrubbed... URL: __ ------------------------------ Message: 4> Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 09:26:41 +1000 From: __ To: Durrell list> __, Bruce Redwine __ Cc: Ken Gammage __ Subject: Re: [ilds] Of> course Tolkien was not being truthful Message-ID:> <20150515232641.DII9M.7093.root at nschwwebs04p> Content-Type:> text/plain; charset=utf-8 Tolkien, whose work I enjoy, told> enormous porky pies. What I never bought was that LoTR was not> an allegory. Yeah, sure mate. But it is the story that matters.> writers are very fond of smokescreens. Dylan Thomas once said> 'confuse the bastards'. David ---- Bruce Redwine __ wrote: > For> some reason I didn?t get Richard Pine?s recent message (below)> to the ILDS Listserv. Anyway, I agree with Ken?s implications,> namely, an author?s intentions or motives bear looking into.> Seems to me it?s all fair game, that is, how one chooses to look> at a piece of literature: as an autonomous unit in the spirit of> the New Criticism (the ?Verbal Icon?) or as a creation deeply> indebted to its creator and his/her motives (conscious or not).> ?Sink or skim,? as Durrell himself says. I prefer to sink, but> that?s simply my preference. I can now hear Bill Godshalk?s> voice interrupting me about the utter impossibility of> determining anyone?s ?intentions.? > > Bruce > > > > > > > On> May 15, 2015, at 9:21 AM, Kennedy Gammage __ wrote: > > > > When> he denied a connection to Wagner he was being defensive and> disingenuous, lying in other words - just like you know who was> wont to do! > > > > I enjoyed re-reading this piece from the NYT> about the Wagner-Tolkien connection: > >>> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/12/22/the-ring-and-the-rings> __ > > > > Cheers - Ken > > > > ---------- Forwarded message> ---------- > > From: __> > > Date: Fri, May 15, 2015 at 1:04 AM> > > Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue 13 > > To:> ilds at lists.uvic.ca __ > > > > > >> Concerning the "origins" or "models" for various characters in> fiction, there are, of course, many obvious sources for LD's> characters and many more oblique. One has only to look at> real-life names of the Quartet period such as Scobie and> Maskelyne to realise this. But I tend to take Humphrey> Carpenter's observation about searching for Tolkien's sources,> that "one learns little by raking through a compost heap to see> what dead plants originally went into it.Far better to observe> its effect on the new and growing plants that it is enriching".> Or Tolkien's own remark when asked whether his "Lord of the> Rings" and Wagner's Nibelungelied had anything in common: "both> are round, and that's where the similarity ends". > > Richard> Pine > > > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri,> 15 May 2015 17:54:25 -0700 From: Bruce Redwine __ To:> ilds at lists.uvic.ca Cc: Bruce Redwine> __, David Green __ Subject: Re: [ilds] Of course Tolkien was not> being truthful Message-ID:> <5382142F-B2CE-4259-B00C-BB0DFB01D1BC at earthlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" David, Interesting> what you say about allegory. I haven?t read Tolkien?s Ring, but> I once submitted a novel with a religious theme (or what I> thought was one) to a Catholic publisher and was duly rejected> because the editor didn?t find it religious. She then said I> should read Tolkien for his religious content. I should have> recommended to her The Dark Labyrinth or perhaps Monsieur. Bruce> > On May 15, 2015, at 4:26 PM, dtart at bigpond.net.au> wrote: > > Tolkien, whose work I> enjoy, told enormous porky pies. What I never bought was that> LoTR was not an allegory. Yeah, sure mate. But it is the story> that matters. writers are very fond of smokescreens. Dylan> Thomas once said 'confuse the bastards'. > > David > > > ----> Bruce Redwine __> wrote: >> For some reason I didn?t get Richard> Pine?s recent message (below) to the ILDS Listserv. Anyway, I> agree with Ken?s implications, namely, an author?s intentions or> motives bear looking into. Seems to me it?s all fair game, that> is, how one chooses to look at a piece of literature: as an> autonomous unit in the spirit of the New Criticism (the ?Verbal> Icon?) or as a creation deeply indebted to its creator and> his/her motives (conscious or not). ?Sink or skim,? as Durrell> himself says. I prefer to sink, but that?s simply my preference.> I can now hear Bill Godshalk?s voice interrupting me about the> utter impossibility of determining anyone?s ?intentions.? >> >>> Bruce >> >> >> >> >> >>> On May 15, 2015, at 9:21 AM, Kennedy> Gammage __ wrote: >>> >>> When he denied a connection to Wagner> he was being defensive and disingenuous, lying in other words -> just like you know who was wont to do! >>> >>> I enjoyed> re-reading this piece from the NYT about the Wagner-Tolkien> connection: >>>>> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/12/22/the-ring-and-the-rings> ____> >>> >>> Cheers - Ken >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message> ---------- >>> From: __ __>> >>> Date: Fri, May 15, 2015 at 1:04> AM >>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue 13 >>> To:> ilds at lists.uvic.ca __ __> >>> >>>> >>> Concerning the "origins" or "models" for various characters> in fiction, there are, of course, many obvious sources for LD's> characters and many more oblique. One has only to look at> real-life names of the Quartet period such as Scobie and> Maskelyne to realise this. But I tend to take Humphrey> Carpenter's observation about searching for Tolkien's sources,> that "one learns little by raking through a compost heap to see> what dead plants originally went into it.Far better to observe> its effect on the new and growing plants that it is enriching".> Or Tolkien's own remark when asked whether his "Lord of the> Rings" and Wagner's Nibelungelied had anything in common: "both> are round, and that's where the similarity ends". >>> Richard> Pine >>> >> > > _______________________________________________> > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca> __ >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __ --------------> next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:> __ ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 16 May> 2015 08:05:45 +0530 From: Sumantra Nag __ To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca> , James Gifford __ Cc: Bruce Redwine> __, Richard Pine __ Subject: Re: [ilds] Of course Tolkien was> not being truthful Message-ID: __ Content-Type: text/plain;> charset="utf-8" I found Richard's comments appearing not as> individual posts but as a quoted thread. As James pointed out> portions from a Digest seem to have appeared with individual> messages. With help from James I have just switched from the> Digest form for ILDS messages to individual messages in order to> avoid quoting a thread of messages from a Digest. Of course one> can edit a reply by manually excluding unrequired portions from> a Digest, which is what I have been trying to do, but it is> easier and more focussed to reply to individual posts. Long ago,> Richard Pine rather brusquely asked me on ILDS, to "stop sending> 29 page messages". I suspect what was happening was, that the> ever increasing list of posts on a Digest was being reproduced> with every one of my responses! I began to look at my responses> more carefully thereafter, in order to manually exclude unwanted> portions of the thread. Is Richard's current post a prey to a> similar problem, but on a smaller scale? Sumantra Sent from my> Samsung Tab On 15 May 2015 23:13, "James Gifford" __ wrote: > Hi> Bruce, > > Check your spam folder -- I just checked mine in> gmail, and the message > was there (likely either the email> address has been flagged for some reason > or else the quoting> of the entire digest set off the filter). > > As for Tolkien, he> also maintained the wars didn't influence the books, > which is> just as ridiculous as saying Wagner has no kinship. A good> friend > wrote his honours thesis on Tolkien and has always told> me to distrust the > author, but Charles Sligh is our resident> expert on ents, Porius, and all > things fantastical. > > I'm> reminded of an exchange of letters I had with Mary Stewart,> asking if > there was any influence from Durrell on her Corfu> novel -- she said no, but > isn't Durrell fascinating for....> and then it went into a demonstration of > just how closely> she'd been reading Old D. > > Authors lie. So do most people.> And intentions change in retrospect. I > wish I could read Bill> tapping out a lie to describe an author lying... > One can> simply think of Durrell's interview with Muggeridge on the BCC> CD > of Durrell recordings from the centenary -- something to> the effect of > "During my years with the BBC" followed by "And> when was that, Larry?" Of > course there were none... > > But> even Durrell's advice in /Personal Landscape/ (the section we've> > already discussed in /Elephant/) sets the poet, public, and> poem as > distinct entities. I can't imagine he'd feel different> about fiction. The > poet's interests are not the same as the> public's nor the poem's and have > no greater (or lesser) force> either. > > James Clawson, Fiona Tomkinson, and I talk about> some ideas akin to this > in our introduction to /Archives &> Networks of Modernism/: > >> http://www.theglobalreview.net/?page_id=11 > > All best, > James> > > On 2015-05-15 10:04 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > >> For some> reason I didn?t get Richard Pine?s recent message (below) to >>> the ILDS Listserv. Anyway, I agree with Ken?s implications,> namely, an >> author?s intentions or motives bear looking into.> Seems to me it?s all >> fair game, that is, how one chooses to> look at a piece of literature: >> as an autonomous unit in the> spirit of the New Criticism (the ?Verbal >> Icon?) or as a> creation deeply indebted to its creator and his/her >> motives> (conscious or not). ?Sink or skim,? as Durrell himself says. I> >> prefer to sink, but that?s simply my preference. I can now> hear Bill >> Godshalk?s voice interrupting me about the utter> impossibility of >> determining anyone?s ?intentions.? >> >>> Bruce >> >> >> >> >> >> On May 15, 2015, at 9:21 AM, Kennedy> Gammage >>> __> wrote: >>> >>> When he denied a connection to> Wagner he was being defensive and >>> disingenuous, lying in> other words - just like you know who was wont >>> to do! >>> >>>> I enjoyed re-reading this piece from the NYT about the> Wagner-Tolkien >>> connection: >>>>> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/12/22/the-ring-and-the-rings> >>> >>> Cheers - Ken >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing> list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > --------------> next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:> __ ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 15 May> 2015 20:06:09 -0700 From: James Gifford __ To:> ilds at lists.uvic.ca Subject: [ilds]> missing messages & digest options Message-ID:> <5556B421.2010708 at gmail.com >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed I'm> fairly certain that's what's happening -- the second message was> also in my gmail spam folder. Any subscribers who wish to can> change their subscription preferences by following either the> instructions in the welcome email or by entering their email> address and selecting the "Unsubscribe or edit options" button> on the ILDS website: https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds> Cheers, James On 2015-05-15 7:35 PM, Sumantra Nag wrote: > I> found Richard's comments appearing not as individual posts but> as a > quoted thread. As James pointed out portions from a> Digest seem to have > appeared with individual messages. > >> With help from James I have just switched from the Digest form> for ILDS > messages to individual messages in order to avoid> quoting a thread of > messages from a Digest. Of course one can> edit a reply by manually > excluding unrequired portions from a> Digest, which is what I have been > trying to do, but it is> easier and more focussed to reply to individual > posts. > >> Long ago, Richard Pine rather brusquely asked me on ILDS, to> "stop > sending 29 page messages". I suspect what was happening> was, that the > ever increasing list of posts on a Digest was> being reproduced with > every one of my responses! I began to> look at my responses more > carefully thereafter, in order to> manually exclude unwanted portions of > the thread. > > Is> Richard's current post a prey to a similar problem, but on a> smaller > scale? > > Sumantra > > Sent from my Samsung Tab> ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 16 May 2015> 10:34:12 +0530 From: Sumantra Nag __ To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca> Cc: Bruce Redwine __ Subject: Re:> [ilds] Durrell?s Characters Message-ID: __ Content-Type:> text/plain; charset="utf-8" Bruce! That's a lot of characters> bearing some aspect of Lawrence Durrell's mental or physical> makeup. Scobie?! Forgive me for sounding a bit bewildered. I> read somewhere that Scobie's character was derived - partly at> least - from an eccentric in Cairo whom Durrell was familiar> with. And Da Capo appears to symbolise a predatory lecher in> whom Durrell projects characteristics of familiar males in> Alexandria. In Justine and the AQ, Da Capo is supposed to have> raped Justine in her adolescence. But Haag's book describes a> similar experience in the life of Elizabeth David, who, rightly> perhaps, has been mentioned in these recent posts as a person on> whom Durrell has drawn while creating Justine. Based on> references I made my from Michael Haag's book on Alexandria> (City of Memory) I wrote at some length in The Guardian> discussion of 2012 that Durrell seems to have transposed some of> the conduct of British people resident in Alexandria during the> 1940s and WWII on to the indigenous population of Alexandria.> Sumantra Sent from my Asus Zenfone Charles Dickens is usually> praised for the variety and profusion of his characterizations.> I don?t think of Durrell as another Dickens. His many> characterizations seem connected, seem to have a common origin.> So we have Count D. Durrell once joked in an interview that he> himself was Justine. Was it entirely a joke? Sappho Jane saw> herself as the prototype for Livia. Here we may have> characterization by consanguinity. I would argue (and have) that> even subsidiary characters such as Da Capo, Toto de Brunel, and> Memlik Pasha have aspects of their creator. Perhaps the ?old> pirate? and his ?tendencies? should also be included. And maybe> old LD *is* the ?real Constance.? That may have appealed to> Sappho Jane. Bruce On May 13, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Kennedy Gammage> __ wrote: I?m not widely read in Saul Bellow (I enjoyed> Humbolt?s Gift, which lead me to Delmore Schwartz) but I am> reading a lot about Bellow now because of Leader?s new bio ? and> there are some contrasts or parallels we can make with our> friend. Louis Menand?s YOUNG SAUL article in the May 11 issue of> The New Yorker says ?From the beginning, Bellow drew on people> he knew, including his wives and girlfriends and the members of> his own family, for his characters.? Maybe this statement> applies to all writers (?write what you know?) ? but I?m not> sure it applies to Durrell so much. How many characters are> there in the Quartet, and how many can you draw a line to,> linking a character to a person Durrell knew? We were just> discussing Clea, Justine and Melissa ? but Durrell had a finite> number of wives, and there are literally dozens of characters.> According to Menand?s review, ??Herzog? is a revenge novel.? To> a ridiculous extent! Not only are the characters directly linked> to friends/wives/lovers ? but many of these people favorably> reviewed the novel, as if it didn?t apply to t...-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Message: 9Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 08:56:45 +0530From: Sumantra Nag To: ilds at lists.uvic.caCc: Ken Gammage , Rony Alfandary , Bruce Redwine , Richard Pine , Denise Tart & David Green , Charles Sligh , James Gifford Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell?s CharactersMessage-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"I must confess I'm surprised at the lack of interest on ILDS, in addressingDurrell's creation of both Alexandria as a city, and the characters inJustine and the AQ as a whole, on the basis of very pointed revelations byMichael Haag to which I have referred in my post (below).Why should Durrell transpose experiences of sexual activity or violence -rape in e6arly in the case of Elizabeth David, and sex in public between aBritish soldier and a Wren,Sent from my Samsung TabOn 16 May 2015 11:57, "Sumantra Nag" wrote:> Michael Haag writes in Alexandria: City of Memory:>>>> "There was an innocence about Alexandria then, in those early days of the> war, an innocence that some would say the city never really lost. 'It was> unthought of for an unmarried girl, or even an unmarried boy', recalled> Bernard de Zogheb, 'to leave the family house and have a flat of their> own...Certainly most girls in Alexandria went to their weddings as virgins> - girls of all communities. We were brought up to think that sex was a> mortal sin.'..." (Haag, p.184)>>>> Hag quotes Eve: 'I had a father who was very possessive and for very good> reasons. He was also, I think infatuated with me... It was the closest he> had been to any human being...And Larry understood this to mean, when I> told him, that my father had interfered with me sexually, but he never> did... he was an honest-to-God man; he just didn?t know what was happening> to him...? (Haag, p.231).>>>> How does this fit with Lawrence Durrell's broad claims about the> Alexandrian people? For instance:>> 1. "The Orient cannot rejoice in the sweet anarchy of the body - for it> has outstripped the body...Alexandria was the great winepress of love;> those who emerged from it were the sick men, the solitaries, the prophets -> I mean all who have been deeply wounded in their sex." (The Alexandria> Quartet, Justine, Faber paperback, 1974, p.18).>> 2. "It is as if the preoccupations of this landscape were centred> somewhere out of the reach of the average inhabitant - in a region where> the flesh, stripped by over-indulgence of its final reticences, must yield> to a preocccupation vastly more comprehensive..." (The Alexandria Quartet,> Justine, Faber paperback, 1974, p.38).>>>> On the other hand these are Michael Haag's accounts about the British in> Alexandria (Alexandria: City of Memory):>>>> 1. "Who were Durrell's original Alexandrians? In fact their names read> like the cast of characters in a Noel Coward play: Charles, Damien,> Claudia, John, Hogarth, Baroness Irma, Tessa, Melissa, Corege. Almost all> his characters are British; they turn out to be like Durrell and his> friends, not true denizens of the cosmopolitan city but exiled in> Alexandria by the war."(Haag, p.299).>>>> But Gwyn Willams ('Durrell in Egypt') is also quoted by Haag as referring> to 'Zananiri, Sachs, Baddaro, Menasce, Zogueb, Suarez...'. and 'It was out> of this varied and dying ferment that Larry invented his Alexandria> Quartet'. (Haag p.259)>> 2. "Gwyn Williams would watch 'for as long as one cared to look' at> British servicemen and women in 'a motionless clinch'...pressed against> walls..." and "For Mario Colucci, ..he remembers seeing 'a Wren standing on> the pavement...her skirt hitched up, one foot on the wall, having sex with> a soldier.' " (Haag, pp.213-14)>> This scene appears as follows in the novel Clea: 'The city was always> perverse but it took its pleasures with style...never up against a wall or> a tree or a truck!' (p.732, The Alexandria quartet)>> 3. Haag writes of the temporarily resident Englishwoman in Alexandria,> Elizabeth Gwynne (Elizabeth David) - not a native citizen of Alexandria -> who had the history of having been raped by a close relative: 'But it is> not clear if eventually she herself or Cowan or a mutual friend told> Durrell that at the age of fourteen she had been raped by a member of her> family...' (Haag, p.274). ,>>>> This incident of being raped by a relative in her adolescence has been> transposed by Durrell in his novel, to the history of Justine created as a> Jewish native of Alexandria.>> 4. "...for a time the navy itself operated a brothel...with a medical> officer permanently on duty. 'It created a big scandal that the British> should participate in such activity...' " (Haag, p.213)>> 5. In his novels, Durrell also underplays or ignores the life of> cultivation among the elite of Alexandria, mentioned in Michael Haag's book:>> "..Nuovo Teatro Alhambra on the Rue Missalla and the Mohammed Ali Theatre> on the Rue Fuad, where Pavlova danced and Toscanini conducted, where the> opera season was brightened by the stars of La Scala...' (Haag, p.136)>>>> The British population in Alexandria appears to have provided material> which Durrell generally used to describe native Alexandrians although the> indigenous Alexandrians undoubtedly formed a part of the background as well.>>>> A most curious contrast is between Durrell?s Alexandria (? . . Alexandria> was the great winepress of love . .?) and Haag?s description of the> Alexandria covering the same period: "There was an innocence about> Alexandria then, in those early days of the war, an innocence that some> would say the city never really lost.? (Haag, p.184)>>>> Sumantra>>>>>> *From:* Sumantra Nag [mailto:sumantranag at gmail.com]> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2015 10:34 AM> *To:* ilds at lists.uvic.ca> *Cc:* Bruce Redwine> *Subject:* Re: [ilds] Durrell?s Characters>>>> Bruce!>> That's a lot of characters bearing some aspect of Lawrence Durrell's> mental or physical makeup.>> Scobie?! Forgive me for sounding a bit bewildered. I read somewhere that> Scobie's character was derived - partly at least - from an eccentric in> Cairo whom Durrell was familiar with. And Da Capo appears to symbolise a> predatory lecher in whom Durrell projects characteristics of familiar males> in Alexandria. In Justine and the AQ, Da Capo is supposed to have raped> Justine in her adolescence. But Haag's book describes a similar experience> in the life of Elizabeth David, who, rightly perhaps, has been mentioned in> these recent posts as a person on whom Durrell has drawn while creating> Justine.>> Based on references I made my from Michael Haag's book on Alexandria (City> of Memory) I wrote at some length in The Guardian discussion of 2012 that> Durrell seems to have transposed some of the conduct of British people> resident in Alexandria during the 1940s and WWII on to the indigenous> population of Alexandria.>> Sumantra>> Sent from my Asus Zenfone>> Charles Dickens is usually praised for the variety and profusion of his> characterizations. I don?t think of Durrell as another Dickens. His many> characterizations seem connected, seem to have a common origin. So we have> Count D. Durrell once joked in an interview that he himself was Justine.> Was it entirely a joke? Sappho Jane saw herself as the prototype for> Livia. Here we may have characterization by consanguinity. I would argue> (and have) that even subsidiary characters such as Da Capo, Toto de Brunel,> and Memlik Pasha have aspects of their creator. Perhaps the ?old pirate?> and his ?tendencies? should also be included. And maybe old LD *is* the> ?real Constance.? That may have appealed to Sappho Jane.>>>> Bruce>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 13, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Kennedy Gammage > wrote:>>>> I?m not widely read in Saul Bellow (I enjoyed Humbolt?s Gift, which lead> me to Delmore Schwartz) but I am reading a lot about Bellow now because of> Leader?s new bio ? and there are some contrasts or parallels we can make> with our friend. Louis Menand?s YOUNG SAUL article in the May 11 issue of> The New Yorker says ?From the beginning, Bellow drew on people he knew,> including his wives and girlfriends and the members of his own family, for> his characters.? Maybe this statement applies to all writers (?write what> you know?) ? but I?m not sure it applies to Durrell so much.>>>> How many characters are there in the Quartet, and how many can you draw a> line to, linking a character to a person Durrell knew? We were just> discussing Clea, Justine and Melissa ? but Durrell had a finite number of> wives, and there are literally dozens of characters. According to Menand?s> review, ??Herzog? is a revenge novel.? To a ridiculous extent! Not only are> the characters directly linked to friends/wives/lovers ? but many of these> people favorably reviewed the novel, as if it didn?t apply to them.>>>> I really think Durrell is a different animal: someone who conjured> characters out of his head like Zeus! Who is the real Constance? Answer> that and I?ll buy you a drink at the next OMG!>>>> Cheers - Ken>>>> _______________________________________________> ILDS mailing list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds>>>>> _______________________________________________> ILDS mailing list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds>-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Message: 10Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 09:59:28 +0530From: Sumantra Nag To: ilds at lists.uvic.caCc: Ken Gammage , Bruce Redwine , Richard Pine , Denise Tart & David Green , Charles Sligh , James Gifford Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell?s Characters-including the city of AlexandriaMessage-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"I must confess I'm surprised at the lack of interest on ILDS, in addressingDurrell's creation of both Alexandria as a city, and the characters inJustine and the AQ as a whole, on the basis of the contradictoryrevelations by Michael Haag to which I have referred in my post (below).Why should Durrell transpose experiences of sexual activity or violence -rape in early life in the case of Elizabeth David, and sex in publicbetween a British soldier and a Wren - on to the indigenous population ofAlexandria consisting of Greeks, Jews and nationalities other than British?The running of a brothel by the British Navy has been coveniently ignoredin the sense that it's presence has been subsumed in the environment whichDurrell has attributed to Alexandria in broad brush strokes.If you read Haag's book you would think that it was the British who hadcreated a "winepress of love" - not the indigenous population ofAlexandria.Why should Durrell begin Justine by focussing on the "sexual provender" ofAlexandria, and describe the city as one populated by people "deeplywounded in their sex"? Or, more fatuously, notwithstanding literaryallusions, as a "winepress of love"?Particularly when Michael Haag speaks about the innocence of Alexandriaduring the 1940s among the dominating number of conventional families inAlexandria?By what literary standards is Lawrence Durrell being judged today? Well heis not judged at all in most quarters and the discovery of his works inobscure locations only emphasises his distance from what is accepted asmainstream literature today - despite the wistful longing of ILDS membersfor an older literary world with which I can sympathise!Even in the end 1960s, when I went to Cambridge from New Delhi, as astudent of science with strong literary interests, and still under theinfluence of Durrell's mesmerising Alexandria Quartet, I found a reactionof indifference or even dismissal among the undergraduates in my collegeand particularly among the students of English. There was one exception inan obviously brilliant British graduate student belonging to the collegebut he was Irish and that may have accounted for his evident appreciationof Durrell which he seemed to share with me in the course of a discussionwe were having in the presence of a skeptical but obviously scholarlyundergraduate of English literature.I think content and the implicit - if not explicit - treatment of people ina work of fiction cannot be ignored unless one is concerned mainly withentertainment, however esoteric that entertainment might seem.Perhaps we should take more seriously, D J Enright's review of the novelsof the Alexandria Quartet, a review rather disparaging entitled"Alexandrian Nights Entertainments". But Enright has openly expressed hisadmiration for Durrell's poetry in the same review, so I think we candiscount any suggestion of a broad literary prejudice on the part ofEnright. That review can be retrieved, I'm sure.SumantraSent from my Samsung TabOn 16 May 2015 11:57, "Sumantra Nag" wrote:> Michael Haag writes in Alexandria: City of Memory:>>>> "There was an innocence about Alexandria then, in those early days of the> war, an innocence that some would say the city never really lost. 'It was> unthought of for an unmarried girl, or even an unmarried boy', recalled> Bernard de Zogheb, 'to leave the family house and have a flat of their> own...Certainly most girls in Alexandria went to their weddings as virgins> - girls of all communities. We were brought up to think that sex was a> mortal sin.'..." (Haag, p.184)>>>> Hag quotes Eve: 'I had a father who was very possessive and for very good> reasons. He was also, I think infatuated with me... It was the closest he> had been to any human being...And Larry understood this to mean, when I> told him, that my father had interfered with me sexually, but he never> did... he was an honest-to-God man; he just didn?t know what was happening> to him...? (Haag, p.231).>>>> How does this fit with Lawrence Durrell's broad claims about the> Alexandrian people? For instance:>> 1. "The Orient cannot rejoice in the sweet anarchy of the body - for it> has outstripped the body...Alexandria was the great winepress of love;> those who emerged from it were the sick men, the solitaries, the prophets -> I mean all who have been deeply wounded in their sex." (The Alexandria> Quartet, Justine, Faber paperback, 1974, p.18).>> 2. "It is as if the preoccupations of this landscape were centred> somewhere out of the reach of the average inhabitant - in a region where> the flesh, stripped by over-indulgence of its final reticences, must yield> to a preocccupation vastly more comprehensive..." (The Alexandria Quartet,> Justine, Faber paperback, 1974, p.38).>>>> On the other hand these are Michael Haag's accounts about the British in> Alexandria (Alexandria: City of Memory):>>>> 1. "Who were Durrell's original Alexandrians? In fact their names read> like the cast of characters in a Noel Coward play: Charles, Damien,> Claudia, John, Hogarth, Baroness Irma, Tessa, Melissa, Corege. Almost all> his characters are British; they turn out to be like Durrell and his> friends, not true denizens of the cosmopolitan city but exiled in> Alexandria by the war."(Haag, p.299).>>>> But Gwyn Willams ('Durrell in Egypt') is also quoted by Haag as referring> to 'Zananiri, Sachs, Baddaro, Menasce, Zogueb, Suarez...'. and 'It was out> of this varied and dying ferment that Larry invented his Alexandria> Quartet'. (Haag p.259)>> 2. "Gwyn Williams would watch 'for as long as one cared to look' at> British servicemen and women in 'a motionless clinch'...pressed against> walls..." and "For Mario Colucci, ..he remembers seeing 'a Wren standing on> the pavement...her skirt hitched up, one foot on the wall, having sex with> a soldier.' " (Haag, pp.213-14)>> This scene appears as follows in the novel Clea: 'The city was always> perverse but it took its pleasures with style...never up against a wall or> a tree or a truck!' (p.732, The Alexandria quartet)>> 3. Haag writes of the temporarily resident Englishwoman in Alexandria,> Elizabeth Gwynne (Elizabeth David) - not a native citizen of Alexandria -> who had the history of having been raped by a close relative: 'But it is> not clear if eventually she herself or Cowan or a mutual friend told> Durrell that at the age of fourteen she had been raped by a member of her> family...' (Haag, p.274). ,>>>> This incident of being raped by a relative in her adolescence has been> transposed by Durrell in his novel, to the history of Justine created as a> Jewish native of Alexandria.>> 4. "...for a time the navy itself operated a brothel...with a medical> officer permanently on duty. 'It created a big scandal that the British> should participate in such activity...' " (Haag, p.213)>> 5. In his novels, Durrell also underplays or ignores the life of> cultivation among the elite of Alexandria, mentioned in Michael Haag's book:>> "..Nuovo Teatro Alhambra on the Rue Missalla and the Mohammed Ali Theatre> on the Rue Fuad, where Pavlova danced and Toscanini conducted, where the> opera season was brightened by the stars of La Scala...' (Haag, p.136)>>>> The British population in Alexandria appears to have provided material> which Durrell generally used to describe native Alexandrians although the> indigenous Alexandrians undoubtedly formed a part of the background as well.>>>> A most curious contrast is between Durrell?s Alexandria (? . . Alexandria> was the great winepress of love . .?) and Haag?s description of the> Alexandria covering the same period: "There was an innocence about> Alexandria then, in those early days of the war, an innocence that some> would say the city never really lost.? (Haag, p.184)>>>> Sumantra>>>>>> *From:* Sumantra Nag [mailto:sumantranag at gmail.com]> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2015 10:34 AM> *To:* ilds at lists.uvic.ca> *Cc:* Bruce Redwine> *Subject:* Re: [ilds] Durrell?s Characters>>>> Bruce!>> That's a lot of characters bearing some aspect of Lawrence Durrell's> mental or physical makeup.>> Scobie?! Forgive me for sounding a bit bewildered. I read somewhere that> Scobie's character was derived - partly at least - from an eccentric in> Cairo whom Durrell was familiar with. And Da Capo appears to symbolise a> predatory lecher in whom Durrell projects characteristics of familiar males> in Alexandria. In Justine and the AQ, Da Capo is supposed to have raped> Justine in her adolescence. But Haag's book describes a similar experience> in the life of Elizabeth David, who, rightly perhaps, has been mentioned in> these recent posts as a person on whom Durrell has drawn while creating> Justine.>> Based on references I made my from Michael Haag's book on Alexandria (City> of Memory) I wrote at some length in The Guardian discussion of 2012 that> Durrell seems to have transposed some of the conduct of British people> resident in Alexandria during the 1940s and WWII on to the indigenous> population of Alexandria.>> Sumantra>> Sent from my Asus Zenfone>> Charles Dickens is usually praised for the variety and profusion of his> characterizations. I don?t think of Durrell as another Dickens. His many> characterizations seem connected, seem to have a common origin. So we have> Count D. Durrell once joked in an interview that he himself was Justine.> Was it entirely a joke? Sappho Jane saw herself as the prototype for> Livia. Here we may have characterization by consanguinity. I would argue> (and have) that even subsidiary characters such as Da Capo, Toto de Brunel,> and Memlik Pasha have aspects of their creator. Perhaps the ?old pirate?> and his ?tendencies? should also be included. And maybe old LD *is* the> ?real Constance.? That may have appealed to Sappho Jane.>>>> Bruce>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 13, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Kennedy Gammage > wrote:>>>> I?m not widely read in Saul Bellow (I enjoyed Humbolt?s Gift, which lead> me to Delmore Schwartz) but I am reading a lot about Bellow now because of> Leader?s new bio ? and there are some contrasts or parallels we can make> with our friend. Louis Menand?s YOUNG SAUL article in the May 11 issue of> The New Yorker says ?From the beginning, Bellow drew on people he knew,> including his wives and girlfriends and the members of his own family, for> his characters.? Maybe this statement applies to all writers (?write what> you know?) ? but I?m not sure it applies to Durrell so much.>>>> How many characters are there in the Quartet, and how many can you draw a> line to, linking a character to a person Durrell knew? We were just> discussing Clea, Justine and Melissa ? but Durrell had a finite number of> wives, and there are literally dozens of characters. According to Menand?s> review, ??Herzog? is a revenge novel.? To a ridiculous extent! Not only are> the characters directly linked to friends/wives/lovers ? but many of these> people favorably reviewed the novel, as if it didn?t apply to them.>>>> I really think Durrell is a different animal: someone who conjured> characters out of his head like Zeus! Who is the real Constance? Answer> that and I?ll buy you a drink at the next OMG!>>>> Cheers - Ken>>>> _______________________________________________> ILDS mailing list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds>>>>> _______________________________________________> ILDS mailing list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds>-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Message: 11Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 10:05:03 +0530From: Sumantra Nag To: ilds at lists.uvic.caCc: Ken Gammage , Rony Alfandary , Bruce Redwine , Richard Pine , Denise Tart & David Green , Charles Sligh , James Gifford Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell?s CharactersMessage-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"This Email (below) went off prematurely, I'm afraid. I have sincecompleted the post and sent it on separately with copies addressed to thesame recipients.SumantraSent from my Samsung TabOn 18 May 2015 08:56, "Sumantra Nag" wrote:> I must confess I'm surprised at the lack of interest on ILDS, in> addressing Durrell's creation of both Alexandria as a city, and the> characters in Justine and the AQ as a whole, on the basis of very pointed> revelations by Michael Haag to which I have referred in my post (below).>> Why should Durrell transpose experiences of sexual activity or violence -> rape in e6arly in the case of Elizabeth David, and sex in public between a> British soldier and a Wren,>> Sent from my Samsung Tab> On 16 May 2015 11:57, "Sumantra Nag" wrote:>>> Michael Haag writes in Alexandria: City of Memory:>>>>>>>> "There was an innocence about Alexandria then, in those early days of the>> war, an innocence that some would say the city never really lost. 'It was>> unthought of for an unmarried girl, or even an unmarried boy', recalled>> Bernard de Zogheb, 'to leave the family house and have a flat of their>> own...Certainly most girls in Alexandria went to their weddings as virgins>> - girls of all communities. We were brought up to think that sex was a>> mortal sin.'..." (Haag, p.184)>>>>>>>> Hag quotes Eve: 'I had a father who was very possessive and for very good>> reasons. He was also, I think infatuated with me... It was the closest he>> had been to any human being...And Larry understood this to mean, when I>> told him, that my father had interfered with me sexually, but he never>> did... he was an honest-to-God man; he just didn?t know what was happening>> to him...? (Haag, p.231).>>>>>>>> How does this fit with Lawrence Durrell's broad claims about the>> Alexandrian people? For instance:>>>> 1. "The Orient cannot rejoice in the sweet anarchy of the body - for it>> has outstripped the body...Alexandria was the great winepress of love;>> those who emerged from it were the sick men, the solitaries, the prophets ->> I mean all who have been deeply wounded in their sex." (The Alexandria>> Quartet, Justine, Faber paperback, 1974, p.18).>>>> 2. "It is as if the preoccupations of this landscape were centred>> somewhere out of the reach of the average inhabitant - in a region where>> the flesh, stripped by over-indulgence of its final reticences, must yield>> to a preocccupation vastly more comprehensive..." (The Alexandria Quartet,>> Justine, Faber paperback, 1974, p.38).>>>>>>>> On the other hand these are Michael Haag's accounts about the British in>> Alexandria (Alexandria: City of Memory):>>>>>>>> 1. "Who were Durrell's original Alexandrians? In fact their names read>> like the cast of characters in a Noel Coward play: Charles, Damien,>> Claudia, John, Hogarth, Baroness Irma, Tessa, Melissa, Corege. Almost all>> his characters are British; they turn out to be like Durrell and his>> friends, not true denizens of the cosmopolitan city but exiled in>> Alexandria by the war."(Haag, p.299).>>>>>>>> But Gwyn Willams ('Durrell in Egypt') is also quoted by Haag as referring>> to 'Zananiri, Sachs, Baddaro, Menasce, Zogueb, Suarez...'. and 'It was out>> of this varied and dying ferment that Larry invented his Alexandria>> Quartet'. (Haag p.259)>>>> 2. "Gwyn Williams would watch 'for as long as one cared to look' at>> British servicemen and women in 'a motionless clinch'...pressed against>> walls..." and "For Mario Colucci, ..he remembers seeing 'a Wren standing on>> the pavement...her skirt hitched up, one foot on the wall, having sex with>> a soldier.' " (Haag, pp.213-14)>>>> This scene appears as follows in the novel Clea: 'The city was always>> perverse but it took its pleasures with style...never up against a wall or>> a tree or a truck!' (p.732, The Alexandria quartet)>>>> 3. Haag writes of the temporarily resident Englishwoman in Alexandria,>> Elizabeth Gwynne (Elizabeth David) - not a native citizen of Alexandria ->> who had the history of having been raped by a close relative: 'But it is>> not clear if eventually she herself or Cowan or a mutual friend told>> Durrell that at the age of fourteen she had been raped by a member of her>> family...' (Haag, p.274). ,>>>>>>>> This incident of being raped by a relative in her adolescence has been>> transposed by Durrell in his novel, to the history of Justine created as a>> Jewish native of Alexandria.>>>> 4. "...for a time the navy itself operated a brothel...with a medical>> officer permanently on duty. 'It created a big scandal that the British>> should participate in such activity...' " (Haag, p.213)>>>> 5. In his novels, Durrell also underplays or ignores the life of>> cultivation among the elite of Alexandria, mentioned in Michael Haag's book:>>>> "..Nuovo Teatro Alhambra on the Rue Missalla and the Mohammed Ali Theatre>> on the Rue Fuad, where Pavlova danced and Toscanini conducted, where the>> opera season was brightened by the stars of La Scala...' (Haag, p.136)>>>>>>>> The British population in Alexandria appears to have provided material>> which Durrell generally used to describe native Alexandrians although the>> indigenous Alexandrians undoubtedly formed a part of the background as well.>>>>>>>> A most curious contrast is between Durrell?s Alexandria (? . . Alexandria>> was the great winepress of love . .?) and Haag?s description of the>> Alexandria covering the same period: "There was an innocence about>> Alexandria then, in those early days of the war, an innocence that some>> would say the city never really lost.? (Haag, p.184)>>>>>>>> Sumantra>>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Sumantra Nag [mailto:sumantranag at gmail.com]>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2015 10:34 AM>> *To:* ilds at lists.uvic.ca>> *Cc:* Bruce Redwine>> *Subject:* Re: [ilds] Durrell?s Characters>>>>>>>> Bruce!>>>> That's a lot of characters bearing some aspect of Lawrence Durrell's>> mental or physical makeup.>>>> Scobie?! Forgive me for sounding a bit bewildered. I read somewhere that>> Scobie's character was derived - partly at least - from an eccentric in>> Cairo whom Durrell was familiar with. And Da Capo appears to symbolise a>> predatory lecher in whom Durrell projects characteristics of familiar males>> in Alexandria. In Justine and the AQ, Da Capo is supposed to have raped>> Justine in her adolescence. But Haag's book describes a similar experience>> in the life of Elizabeth David, who, rightly perhaps, has been mentioned in>> these recent posts as a person on whom Durrell has drawn while creating>> Justine.>>>> Based on references I made my from Michael Haag's book on Alexandria>> (City of Memory) I wrote at some length in The Guardian discussion of 2012>> that Durrell seems to have transposed some of the conduct of British people>> resident in Alexandria during the 1940s and WWII on to the indigenous>> population of Alexandria.>>>> Sumantra>>>> Sent from my Asus Zenfone>>>> Charles Dickens is usually praised for the variety and profusion of his>> characterizations. I don?t think of Durrell as another Dickens. His many>> characterizations seem connected, seem to have a common origin. So we have>> Count D. Durrell once joked in an interview that he himself was Justine.>> Was it entirely a joke? Sappho Jane saw herself as the prototype for>> Livia. Here we may have characterization by consanguinity. I would argue>> (and have) that even subsidiary characters such as Da Capo, Toto de Brunel,>> and Memlik Pasha have aspects of their creator. Perhaps the ?old pirate?>> and his ?tendencies? should also be included. And maybe old LD *is* the>> ?real Constance.? That may have appealed to Sappho Jane.>>>>>>>> Bruce>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 13, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Kennedy Gammage >> wrote:>>>>>>>> I?m not widely read in Saul Bellow (I enjoyed Humbolt?s Gift, which lead>> me to Delmore Schwartz) but I am reading a lot about Bellow now because of>> Leader?s new bio ? and there are some contrasts or parallels we can make>> with our friend. Louis Menand?s YOUNG SAUL article in the May 11 issue of>> The New Yorker says ?From the beginning, Bellow drew on people he knew,>> including his wives and girlfriends and the members of his own family, for>> his characters.? Maybe this statement applies to all writers (?write what>> you know?) ? but I?m not sure it applies to Durrell so much.>>>>>>>> How many characters are there in the Quartet, and how many can you draw a>> line to, linking a character to a person Durrell knew? We were just>> discussing Clea, Justine and Melissa ? but Durrell had a finite number of>> wives, and there are literally dozens of characters. According to Menand?s>> review, ??Herzog? is a revenge novel.? To a ridiculous extent! Not only are>> the characters directly linked to friends/wives/lovers ? but many of these>> people favorably reviewed the novel, as if it didn?t apply to them.>>>>>>>> I really think Durrell is a different animal: someone who conjured>> characters out of his head like Zeus! Who is the real Constance? Answer>> that and I?ll buy you a drink at the next OMG!>>>>>>>> Cheers - Ken>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________>> ILDS mailing list>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________>> ILDS mailing list>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds>>>-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Message: 12Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 10:11:38 +0530From: Sumantra Nag To: James Gifford , ilds at lists.uvic.caSubject: [ilds] Fwd: RE: Durrell?s CharactersMessage-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"This unfinished post got transmitted by mistake. I'd request you to pleaseignore the unfinished mail without posting it.I have since completed the post and posted it separately for circulation.RegardsSumantraSent from my Samsung Tab---------- Forwarded message ----------From: "Sumantra Nag" Date: 18 May 2015 08:56Subject: RE: [ilds] Durrell?s CharactersTo: Cc: "Bruce Redwine" , "James Gifford" <james.d.gifford at gmail.com>, "Ken Gammage" ,"Denise Tart & David Green" , "Richard Pine" <rpinecorfu at yahoo.com>, "Charles Sligh" , "RonyAlfandary" I must confess I'm surprised at the lack of interest on ILDS, in addressingDurrell's creation of both Alexandria as a city, and the characters inJustine and the AQ as a whole, on the basis of very pointed revelations byMichael Haag to which I have referred in my post (below).Why should Durrell transpose experiences of sexual activity or violence -rape in e6arly in the case of Elizabeth David, and sex in public between aBritish soldier and a Wren,Sent from my Samsung TabOn 16 May 2015 11:57, "Sumantra Nag" wrote:> Michael Haag writes in Alexandria: City of Memory:>>>> "There was an innocence about Alexandria then, in those early days of the> war, an innocence that some would say the city never really lost. 'It was> unthought of for an unmarried girl, or even an unmarried boy', recalled> Bernard de Zogheb, 'to leave the family house and have a flat of their> own...Certainly most girls in Alexandria went to their weddings as virgins> - girls of all communities. We were brought up to think that sex was a> mortal sin.'..." (Haag, p.184)>>>> Hag quotes Eve: 'I had a father who was very possessive and for very good> reasons. He was also, I think infatuated with me... It was the closest he> had been to any human being...And Larry understood this to mean, when I> told him, that my father had interfered with me sexually, but he never> did... he was an honest-to-God man; he just didn?t know what was happening> to him...? (Haag, p.231).>>>> How does this fit with Lawrence Durrell's broad claims about the> Alexandrian people? For instance:>> 1. "The Orient cannot rejoice in the sweet anarchy of the body - for it> has outstripped the body...Alexandria was the great winepress of love;> those who emerged from it were the sick men, the solitaries, the prophets -> I mean all who have been deeply wounded in their sex." (The Alexandria> Quartet, Justine, Faber paperback, 1974, p.18).>> 2. "It is as if the preoccupations of this landscape were centred> somewhere out of the reach of the average inhabitant - in a region where> the flesh, stripped by over-indulgence of its final reticences, must yield> to a preocccupation vastly more comprehensive..." (The Alexandria Quartet,> Justine, Faber paperback, 1974, p.38).>>>> On the other hand these are Michael Haag's accounts about the British in> Alexandria (Alexandria: City of Memory):>>>> 1. "Who were Durrell's original Alexandrians? In fact their names read> like the cast of characters in a Noel Coward play: Charles, Damien,> Claudia, John, Hogarth, Baroness Irma, Tessa, Melissa, Corege. Almost all> his characters are British; they turn out to be like Durrell and his> friends, not true denizens of the cosmopolitan city but exiled in> Alexandria by the war."(Haag, p.299).>>>> But Gwyn Willams ('Durrell in Egypt') is also quoted by Haag as referring> to 'Zananiri, Sachs, Baddaro, Menasce, Zogueb, Suarez...'. and 'It was out> of this varied and dying ferment that Larry invented his Alexandria> Quartet'. (Haag p.259)>> 2. "Gwyn Williams would watch 'for as long as one cared to look' at> British servicemen and women in 'a motionless clinch'...pressed against> walls..." and "For Mario Colucci, ..he remembers seeing 'a Wren standing on> the pavement...her skirt hitched up, one foot on the wall, having sex with> a soldier.' " (Haag, pp.213-14)>> This scene appears as follows in the novel Clea: 'The city was always> perverse but it took its pleasures with style...never up against a wall or> a tree or a truck!' (p.732, The Alexandria quartet)>> 3. Haag writes of the temporarily resident Englishwoman in Alexandria,> Elizabeth Gwynne (Elizabeth David) - not a native citizen of Alexandria -> who had the history of having been raped by a close relative: 'But it is> not clear if eventually she herself or Cowan or a mutual friend told> Durrell that at the age of fourteen she had been raped by a member of her> family...' (Haag, p.274). ,>>>> This incident of being raped by a relative in her adolescence has been> transposed by Durrell in his novel, to the history of Justine created as a> Jewish native of Alexandria.>> 4. "...for a time the navy itself operated a brothel...with a medical> officer permanently on duty. 'It created a big scandal that the British> should participate in such activity...' " (Haag, p.213)>> 5. In his novels, Durrell also underplays or ignores the life of> cultivation among the elite of Alexandria, mentioned in Michael Haag's book:>> "..Nuovo Teatro Alhambra on the Rue Missalla and the Mohammed Ali Theatre> on the Rue Fuad, where Pavlova danced and Toscanini conducted, where the> opera season was brightened by the stars of La Scala...' (Haag, p.136)>>>> The British population in Alexandria appears to have provided material> which Durrell generally used to describe native Alexandrians although the> indigenous Alexandrians undoubtedly formed a part of the background as well.>>>> A most curious contrast is between Durrell?s Alexandria (? . . Alexandria> was the great winepress of love . .?) and Haag?s description of the> Alexandria covering the same period: "There was an innocence about> Alexandria then, in those early days of the war, an innocence that some> would say the city never really lost.? (Haag, p.184)>>>> Sumantra>>>>>> *From:* Sumantra Nag [mailto:sumantranag at gmail.com]> *Sent:* Saturday, May 16, 2015 10:34 AM> *To:* ilds at lists.uvic.ca> *Cc:* Bruce Redwine> *Subject:* Re: [ilds] Durrell?s Characters>>>> Bruce!>> That's a lot of characters bearing some aspect of Lawrence Durrell's> mental or physical makeup.>> Scobie?! Forgive me for sounding a bit bewildered. I read somewhere that> Scobie's character was derived - partly at least - from an eccentric in> Cairo whom Durrell was familiar with. And Da Capo appears to symbolise a> predatory lecher in whom Durrell projects characteristics of familiar males> in Alexandria. In Justine and the AQ, Da Capo is supposed to have raped> Justine in her adolescence. But Haag's book describes a similar experience> in the life of Elizabeth David, who, rightly perhaps, has been mentioned in> these recent posts as a person on whom Durrell has drawn while creating> Justine.>> Based on references I made my from Michael Haag's book on Alexandria (City> of Memory) I wrote at some length in The Guardian discussion of 2012 that> Durrell seems to have transposed some of the conduct of British people> resident in Alexandria during the 1940s and WWII on to the indigenous> population of Alexandria.>> Sumantra>> Sent from my Asus Zenfone>> Charles Dickens is usually praised for the variety and profusion of his> characterizations. I don?t think of Durrell as another Dickens. His many> characterizations seem connected, seem to have a common origin. So we have> Count D. Durrell once joked in an interview that he himself was Justine.> Was it entirely a joke? Sappho Jane saw herself as the prototype for> Livia. Here we may have characterization by consanguinity. I would argue> (and have) that even subsidiary characters such as Da Capo, Toto de Brunel,> and Memlik Pasha have aspects of their creator. Perhaps the ?old pirate?> and his ?tendencies? should also be included. And maybe old LD *is* the> ?real Constance.? That may have appealed to Sappho Jane.>>>> Bruce>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 13, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Kennedy Gammage > wrote:>>>> I?m not widely read in Saul Bellow (I enjoyed Humbolt?s Gift, which lead> me to Delmore Schwartz) but I am reading a lot about Bellow now because of> Leader?s new bio ? and there are some contrasts or parallels we can make> with our friend. Louis Menand?s YOUNG SAUL article in the May 11 issue of> The New Yorker says ?From the beginning, Bellow drew on people he knew,> including his wives and girlfriends and the members of his own family, for> his characters.? Maybe this statement applies to all writers (?write what> you know?) ? but I?m not sure it applies to Durrell so much.>>>> How many characters are there in the Quartet, and how many can you draw a> line to, linking a character to a person Durrell knew? We were just> discussing Clea, Justine and Melissa ? but Durrell had a finite number of> wives, and there are literally dozens of characters. According to Menand?s> review, ??Herzog? is a revenge novel.? To a ridiculous extent! Not only are> the characters directly linked to friends/wives/lovers ? but many of these> people favorably reviewed the novel, as if it didn?t apply to them.>>>> I really think Durrell is a different animal: someone who conjured> characters out of his head like Zeus! Who is the real Constance? Answer> that and I?ll buy you a drink at the next OMG!>>>> Cheers - Ken>>>> _______________________________________________> ILDS mailing list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds>>>>> _______________________________________________> ILDS mailing list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds>-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Message: 13Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 09:09:38 -0700From: Bruce Redwine To: ilds at lists.uvic.caCc: James Gifford , Bruce Redwine Subject: Re: [ilds] Of course Tolkien was not being truthful_Durrell a "religious writer"?Message-ID: <3BD16D02-8BE9-4522-BF2B-722306DF78B9 at earthlink.net>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"Sumantra,I?d say that Durrell is highly religious. In an early letter to Miller, he says (via negativa) they?re both religious writers. In A Smile in the Mind?s Eye, he calls himself a Taoist. His Heraldic Universe attempts to locate meaning in some other earthly dimension. His tropes are religious: Holy Tibet, Plotinus and the Cabal, Gnosticism, the Knights Templar, allegory, and literature as some kind of pilgrimage. Think about Chaucer and his Canterbury Tales: the journey from the world of the flesh to the world of the spirit. Many of his works follow that pattern. The ?kingdom of the imagination,? as I?ve said before, reminds me of the New Testament?s ?Kingdom of Heaven.? Durrell?s religion is not conventional, of course. It?s religion without godhead, some divine being, and without dogma. It?s closer to Buddhism and Taoism.Bruce> On May 17, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Sumantra Nag wrote:> > Bruce,> > I'm not sure I understand in what sense Durrell can be described as a religious writer.> > From the evidence emerging about Durrell as a person - much of which has been frankly presented by you in your exchanges - it would be difficult to see Durrell anchored to religion influences which guided his personal life. His relationship with women seemed to involve a high level of aggression on his part. His treatment of his daughter Sappho appears to have been questioned. In this aspect of Durrell I'm drawing from what I have read in ILDS exchanges.> > Sumantra> > Sent from my Samsung Tab> > On 17 May 2015 01:46, "Bruce Redwine" > wrote:> James,> > Stimulating response. Okay. We differ. I tend to treat Durrell?s literary output as evidence for his personal philosophy. He?s a religious writer, in my opinion. He has a view to propagate. His Quartet, as he states in the note to Balthazar, is an ?investigation.? I take him at his word (which presents problems, of course). He doesn?t say he writing fiction with a moral, a story to instruct and amuse, Chaucer?s ?sentence? and ?solaas.? He?s out to prove and demonstrate something. You might say Durrell is in the great tradition of ?spiritual autobiography,? another Bunyan and his Pilgrim?s Progress.> > So I don?t separate the man from his work. If all we had to go on about Lawrence Durrell was his oeuvre, then your approach to ?truth? in his writings makes sense. But we know a great deal about his life and behavior, often from his many statements in various media. The dominant impression I get from those ?communications? is a propensity to dissemble, to prevaricate, and to lie. All of which resemble the Quartet?s unstable world without certainties. You can say he?s creating a ?public persona,? reprising his diplomatic role as Director of Public Relations or just confounding ?the bastards,? but I think it?s much deeper than all that. I think he?s revealing something about himself, an inability to distinguish fact from fiction. Not all the time, of course, but when it comes to personal matters. Bill Godshalk said he was a ?fabulator.? Yes, but that?s a nice way to say he lied a lot.> > I recall the opening to the 1977 documentary about Durrell?s return to Alexandria. The camera floats in from the sea and approaches the city with its magnificent skyline. A voice intones those memorable words from Balthazar: ?We saw, inverted in the sky, a full-scale mirage of the city.? We see Durrell and assume the words are his, if not the voice. Well, neither. The words are from the novel, but Durrell had stolen them, without accreditation, from R. Talbot Kelly?s Egypt: Painted and Described (1903). The author, however, appears to believe the description was actually his.> > Bruce> > > > > >> On May 15, 2015, at 12:43 PM, James Gifford > wrote:>> >> Hi Bruce,>> >> I do think this is where we disagree -- I don't have any particular grudge against Tolkien for his misdirections, and I do think Durrell's contradictory truths are a genuine perspective. For instance, the passage you point to in the Quartet, and others like it, gesture to the unresolvable nature of truth when we live in a world made up of subjects observing 'reality' from a multitude of perspectives.>> >> As an example, did Justine ever love Darley, or was she merely using him as a blind for her political interests, or for Pursewarden? It's probably not a question to be answered, since the perspective changes it, including Justine's retrospective self-observations.>> >> I suspect this is also the appeal of the popularized notions of relativity or quantum strangeness for Durrell -- there are many contradictory perspectives from which to view the world, but there's not "godly" position at the centre from which to sort out absolute truth, and likewise there's no fixed point at which the Enlightenment subject is eternally fixed, instead leaving instead a protean process of subjectivity in its place.>> >> There are other lies as well, such as Durrell's BBC years, which I see as an occasional part of his correspondences but a pervasive part of his interviews. I suspect the interviews are almost all performance, and it would be speculation to ask how much of the bafflegab around the truth Durrell believed versus how much was a public persona for a private person.>> >> However, I personally don't pick up fiction to look for truth, or at least not in any conventional sense. I trust the telling more than the tale, if that's a fair way to put it, and the teller's involvement with the telling & tale is suspect.>> >> All best,>> James>> >> On 2015-05-15 12:19 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:>>> James,>>> >>> Yes, authors lie, and so do many people. They do it for various>>> reasons, some excusable, some not. Durrell?s motives, however, I find>>> suspect. In fact, I think they?re pathological ? the man couldn?t>>> distinguish between truth and fiction, or chose not to, and then turned>>> that disposition into a philosophic principle: ?Truth is what most>>> contradicts itself in time.? In Haag?s /City of Memory,/ Eve Cohen says>>> this about him ? he?s not to be trusted; he?s a storyteller. Bill>>> Godshalk lying in order to describe lying, if I understand correctly, is>>> an example of the ?liars paradox.? Statements about lying ? ?I am>>> lying? ? are insolvable in terms of truth value, just as>>> Durrell?s/Balthazar?s statement about truth is contradictory. Now, we>>> can say this is a profound observation about the way things are, or we>>> can say there?s something wrong with the person who says and believes>>> it. I prefer the latter.>>> >>> Bruce>> _______________________________________________>> ILDS mailing list>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > _______________________________________________> ILDS mailing list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > _______________________________________________> ILDS mailing list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Message: 14Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 09:41:36 -0700From: Bruce Redwine To: ilds at lists.uvic.caCc: James Gifford , Bruce Redwine Subject: Re: [ilds] Of course Tolkien was not being truthful_Durrell documentary of 1977Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"Not to my knowledge. I saw it in Alexandria, Egypt.Bruce> On May 17, 2015, at 7:31 PM, Sumantra Nag wrote:> > Can this documentary be accessed through the Net? I did read the article about his visit of 1977.> > Sumantra> > Sent from my Samsung Tab> > On 17 May 2015 01:46, "Bruce Redwine" > wrote:> James,> > Stimulating response. Okay. We differ. I tend to treat Durrell?s literary output as evidence for his personal philosophy. He?s a religious writer, in my opinion. He has a view to propagate. His Quartet, as he states in the note to Balthazar, is an ?investigation.? I take him at his word (which presents problems, of course). He doesn?t say he writing fiction with a moral, a story to instruct and amuse, Chaucer?s ?sentence? and ?solaas.? He?s out to prove and demonstrate something. You might say Durrell is in the great tradition of ?spiritual autobiography,? another Bunyan and his Pilgrim?s Progress.> > So I don?t separate the man from his work. If all we had to go on about Lawrence Durrell was his oeuvre, then your approach to ?truth? in his writings makes sense. But we know a great deal about his life and behavior, often from his many statements in various media. The dominant impression I get from those ?communications? is a propensity to dissemble, to prevaricate, and to lie. All of which resemble the Quartet?s unstable world without certainties. You can say he?s creating a ?public persona,? reprising his diplomatic role as Director of Public Relations or just confounding ?the bastards,? but I think it?s much deeper than all that. I think he?s revealing something about himself, an inability to distinguish fact from fiction. Not all the time, of course, but when it comes to personal matters. Bill Godshalk said he was a ?fabulator.? Yes, but that?s a nice way to say he lied a lot.> > I recall the opening to the 1977 documentary about Durrell?s return to Alexandria. The camera floats in from the sea and approaches the city with its magnificent skyline. A voice intones those memorable words from Balthazar: ?We saw, inverted in the sky, a full-scale mirage of the city.? We see Durrell and assume the words are his, if not the voice. Well, neither. The words are from the novel, but Durrell had stolen them, without accreditation, from R. Talbot Kelly?s Egypt: Painted and Described (1903). The author, however, appears to believe the description was actually his.> > Bruce> > > > > >> On May 15, 2015, at 12:43 PM, James Gifford > wrote:>> >> Hi Bruce,>> >> I do think this is where we disagree -- I don't have any particular grudge against Tolkien for his misdirections, and I do think Durrell's contradictory truths are a genuine perspective. For instance, the passage you point to in the Quartet, and others like it, gesture to the unresolvable nature of truth when we live in a world made up of subjects observing 'reality' from a multitude of perspectives.>> >> As an example, did Justine ever love Darley, or was she merely using him as a blind for her political interests, or for Pursewarden? It's probably not a question to be answered, since the perspective changes it, including Justine's retrospective self-observations.>> >> I suspect this is also the appeal of the popularized notions of relativity or quantum strangeness for Durrell -- there are many contradictory perspectives from which to view the world, but there's not "godly" position at the centre from which to sort out absolute truth, and likewise there's no fixed point at which the Enlightenment subject is eternally fixed, instead leaving instead a protean process of subjectivity in its place.>> >> There are other lies as well, such as Durrell's BBC years, which I see as an occasional part of his correspondences but a pervasive part of his interviews. I suspect the interviews are almost all performance, and it would be speculation to ask how much of the bafflegab around the truth Durrell believed versus how much was a public persona for a private person.>> >> However, I personally don't pick up fiction to look for truth, or at least not in any conventional sense. I trust the telling more than the tale, if that's a fair way to put it, and the teller's involvement with the telling & tale is suspect.>> >> All best,>> James>> >> On 2015-05-15 12:19 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:>>> James,>>> >>> Yes, authors lie, and so do many people. They do it for various>>> reasons, some excusable, some not. Durrell?s motives, however, I find>>> suspect. In fact, I think they?re pathological ? the man couldn?t>>> distinguish between truth and fiction, or chose not to, and then turned>>> that disposition into a philosophic principle: ?Truth is what most>>> contradicts itself in time.? In Haag?s /City of Memory,/ Eve Cohen says>>> this about him ? he?s not to be trusted; he?s a storyteller. Bill>>> Godshalk lying in order to describe lying, if I understand correctly, is>>> an example of the ?liars paradox.? Statements about lying ? ?I am>>> lying? ? are insolvable in terms of truth value, just as>>> Durrell?s/Balthazar?s statement about truth is contradictory. Now, we>>> can say this is a profound observation about the way things are, or we>>> can say there?s something wrong with the person who says and believes>>> it. I prefer the latter.>>> >>> Bruce-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Message: 15Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 10:30:34 -0700From: Bruce Redwine To: Denise Tart & David Green , "ilds at lists.uvic.ca" Cc: "" , Bruce Redwine Subject: Re: [ilds] Caesar's Vast Ghost, review by Bobby Matheme, 2002Message-ID: <2F7E7881-12ED-4E67-9A79-826C40B1A1B4 at earthlink.net>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"David, very good review. I think you have much to look forward to in Provence. A few year ago we were in Aix and surrounding places. Magnificent! You probably want to rent a car.BruceSent from my iPhone> On May 17, 2015, at 7:36 PM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote:> > > > > > To read Durrell's book is to wander through Caesar's vast ghost, Provence, and to become intimately familiar with its many Roman aspects. He writes of Provence as though it were a 2,000 year old suburb of Rome where its retired generals and consuls moved to escape the hurl-burly of city life. To wander through Provence is to quaff it heady brew: wine, that ubiquitous concoction - whether it be of "poor contrivance" or a connoisseur's choice. One is ready to accept his friend Aldo's declaration that "everything really desirable has come about because of, or in spite of, wine!"> > One stands in awe of the fabled aqueduct with the graceful arches, Pont du Gard, and is reminded once again of the Roman presence in Provence. As Durrell said, "It is obvious that the country is a funnel through which almost every race, ancient and modern, has marched either towards or away from, a war." A land of unlikely contrasts, where you can as easily find signs of bull worship as Buffalo Bill worship. Tombs of beloved poets beside tombs of their beloved pets. Great winds that rake the land named "mistral", of both atmospheric and poetic origin. Amphitheaters, ruins, relics, ancient coins and pottery shards greet you at every turn of the road or the shovel. From the fragile black past of Celtic ware to the golden Greek pottery light enough to float in water.> > Like a great continental palimpsest of European cultures, Provence awaits your pleasure. Come early, leave late, and taste the abundant delights. And while you await passage to Provence, wherever you are, prop open this gorgeous book and imbibe large intoxicating draughts of its fragrant bouquet. In brilliant color and picturesque story, Caesar's vast ghost is proffered to be quaffed like a highly contrived dry red wine to stave off the prolonged drought before arrival on the sunny shores of the Rhone.> > > David Green> 16 William Street> Marrickville NSW 2204> +61 2 9564 6165> 0412 707 625> _______________________________________________> ILDS mailing list> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Subject: Digest Footer_______________________________________________ILDS mailing listILDS at lists.uvic.cahttps://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds------------------------------End of ILDS Digest, Vol 97, Issue 18************************************
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