[ilds] Bisexual Love

Marc Piel marc at marcpiel.fr
Wed Jul 23 05:28:30 PDT 2014


Hello Ken et al,
Not withstanding that the script was typed out by 
Eve and several years later, LD and N doubtlessly 
lived Corfu, each in their own ways. So what could 
be lies for one are not necessarily so for the other!
When PC was published N had left LD and taken 
their child from him. So the use of "N" does not 
reduce her to nothing, but does not make her 
disappear.
I read it as being discrete.

I don't know enough to judge wether LD was 
"reporting" or "miming", but it does seeem to me 
that words and expressions are used in these posts 
to argument against, or defend, one idea and then 
refused as words and expressions against another 
idea, withour concrete or scientific arguments. 
That is why I read your word "joke" for something, 
that to me was not a joke at all. I think that 
what LD wrote is probably the truth and therefore 
not a joke. (my dictionary defines the word as 
something said or done to excite laughter or 
amusement; a witticism, a jest; also a ridiculous 
circumstance).

Let me assure you that the use of @+ in a sign 
off, is often used in France and means "till next 
time", "à la prochaine". Nothing facetious!

One can add emphasis to it
@++
or
@+++
Marc

NB: I read PC on Corfu and recommend it, as I do 
to visit Tuscany with DHL Etruscan Places although 
with the latter one has to be carefull, because 
the editors have cut it about to fit their needs. 
The complete original text is not easy to find. In 
fact DHL is a fabulous travel writer; I used him 
in Mexico and Australia also.

Le 22/07/14 17:08, Kennedy Gammage a écrit :
> Marc writes "I have just read this again; Never 
> did it occur to me that it was a "joke", nor 
> about bisexuality. As well as that It is a 
> citation of what Theodore says, so cannot be 
> attributed to LD.
> @+
> Marc"
>
> I wanted to respond because I think this raises 
> several issues of interest -- and yes I am aware 
> that language issues are also at play. For 
> instance, even though this e-mail thread 
> references bisexuality, the immediate two 
> preceding e-mails (mine then Bruce's) refer 
> instead to bestiality, which is the subject of 
> the joke.
>
> And yes, I think it is a deliberate joke. There 
> are many such jokes about having sex with ewes. 
> One of them has the punchline "Sheep lie." 
> Another, referring to a Scotsman's kilt, says 
> "Sheep can hear a zipper a mile away."
>
> I say deliberate because of the way Durrell sets 
> up the joke by referring to his friend 
> Theodore's 'academic manner.' But the statement 
> of Marc's I particularly disagree with is that 
> it cannot be attributed to LD. Obviously he is 
> the author of the book, and it is his written 
> voice describing the incident. When Durrell 
> writes "He records a conversation..." (he being 
> Stephanides) he is framing the entire 
> multi-paragraph joke dated 15.8.38 -- which pays 
> off as Bruce says with the shepherd's statement, 
> which is the final sentence of the chapter. This 
> is the punchline of the joke.
>
> I wanted to ask Marc about the @+ symbol above 
> his name. I googled it but nothing came up -- is 
> it an emoticon of some sort? I wondered if it 
> was a 'wink' indicating that Marc was being 
> facetious, as I was attempting to be with my own 
> bestiality/something nasty comment.
>
> Cheers - Ken
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 2:22 AM, Marc Piel 
> <marc at marcpiel.fr <mailto:marc at marcpiel.fr>> wrote:
>
>     I have just read this again; Never did it
>     occur to me that it was a "joke", nor about
>     bisexaulity.
>     As well as that It is a citation of what
>     Theodore says, so cannot be attributed to LD.
>     @+
>     Marc
>
>     Envoyé de mon iPad
>
>     Le 22 juil. 2014 à 05:00, Bruce Redwine
>     <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
>     <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> a écrit :
>
>>     Which reminds me of that joke in
>>     /Prospero's Cell/ about a shepherd and his
>>     favorite ewe (end of ch. 6).  The punch
>>     line gets two for one --- bestiality and
>>     misogyny.
>>
>>     Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>>     On Jul 21, 2014, at 6:50 PM, Kennedy
>>     Gammage <gammage.kennedy at gmail.com
>>     <mailto:gammage.kennedy at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>>     Well - thank God it wasn't bestiality or
>>>     something really nasty!
>>>
>>>     Cheers - Ken
>>>
>>>
>>>     On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Bruce
>>>     Redwine <bredwine1968 at gmail.com
>>>     <mailto:bredwine1968 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         This analysis is similar to Haag's, as
>>>         cited below, dated 4/8/07.  He
>>>         explains it well.  One can approach
>>>         the topic of bisexuality as Durrell's
>>>         theory or interpretation of the
>>>         "modern" condition, be it social or
>>>         personal.  Or one can look at it
>>>         autobiographically.  Pine quotes
>>>         Durrell:  "My books are a sort of
>>>         spiritual autobiography, not only of
>>>         myself as an individual, but of my
>>>         age.  What I want to inspect is the
>>>         secret intuitions of my readers, male
>>>         and female" /(Mindscape,/ 2nd ed., p.
>>>         26).  (Pine's book, incidentally, is a
>>>         real mine of information about LD.)  I
>>>         see a lot of fleshiness in Durrell's
>>>         notion of "spiritual" and would assign
>>>         a behavioral meaning to "secret
>>>         intuitions."  From the flesh to the
>>>         spirit, as Augustine's /Confessions/
>>>         shows and as Chaucer writes in his
>>>         famous /Prologue/ --- both writers
>>>         very familiar to Durrell.  As to the
>>>         Greek myths, Freud used them as a
>>>         paradigm for his theory of sexuality
>>>         as seen in the Oedipus complex.  And
>>>         Philip Slater in /The Glory of Hera/
>>>         uses the myths to explain ancient
>>>         Greek male psychology and the role of
>>>         women in that society.  In short, it
>>>         might be useful get below the surface
>>>         meaning of Durrell's notion of
>>>         "bisexuality."  Whichever approach,
>>>         it's a matter of reader's choice.
>>>          "Sink or swim," as the author says.
>>>         Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         On Jul 21, 2014, at 11:09 AM, Lee
>>>         Sternthal <lasternthal at gmail.com
>>>         <mailto:lasternthal at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>         Dare I say this is a far more
>>>>         productive start to a conversation on
>>>>         sexuality in LDs work than the
>>>>         previous one.
>>>>
>>>>         Sexuality can be literal, emotional,
>>>>         pyschological, political or some
>>>>         combination of all of these, as we
>>>>         know.  Bisexuality itself makes for a
>>>>         wonderful open metaphor for
>>>>         storytellers in all genres, numerous
>>>>         examples can be cited.  A writer so
>>>>         obviously concerned with freedom, the
>>>>         protean nature of the human
>>>>         personality and the ever changing
>>>>         (chaotic) world will find a lot to
>>>>         draw out from in the exploration of
>>>>         sexuality in fiction, whether they
>>>>         were engaging in bisexuality or not
>>>>         in their life.  Also, obviously Greek
>>>>         myth, literature and culture has been
>>>>         far more open about the paradigm of
>>>>         sexuality than most other western
>>>>         societies.
>>>>
>>>>         So I'd still be very careful about
>>>>         what conclusions are drawn, but,
>>>>         again I think this is a far more
>>>>         productive way to begin to
>>>>         investigate the issue as it relates
>>>>         to the work and the author.
>>>>
>>>>         -L
>>>>
>>>>         On Jul 21, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Bruce
>>>>         Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
>>>>         <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>>
>>>>         wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>         James,
>>>>>
>>>>>         Thanks for the confirmation.  The
>>>>>         change from "bisexual" to "modern"
>>>>>         is very important in Durrellian
>>>>>         studies and really needs to be
>>>>>         formalized in a publication, one
>>>>>         which can be easily cited.  The
>>>>>         obvious place for that is /Deus
>>>>>         Loci./  I'm truly amazed your essay
>>>>>         was rejected, which strikes me as a
>>>>>         serious error in editorial
>>>>>         responsibility.  Good luck on
>>>>>         getting your essay published.  I
>>>>>         assume it will include a full
>>>>>         analysis of the topic in Durrell's
>>>>>         works.  Please let me know when it does.
>>>>>
>>>>>         Michael Haag's discussion of the
>>>>>         topic, as cited below, is very good,
>>>>>         although I'm not completely
>>>>>         satisfied with his explanation.  He
>>>>>         confines himself to a philosophical
>>>>>         or literary analysis of Durrell's
>>>>>         attitude to bisexuality.  Seems to
>>>>>         me there's more than that.  Briefly,
>>>>>         why the obsession with bisexuality?
>>>>>          Why make it a cornerstone of one's
>>>>>         personal philosophy?
>>>>>
>>>>>         Bruce
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>         On Jul 21, 2014, at 10:21 AM, James
>>>>>         Gifford <james.d.gifford at gmail.com
>>>>>         <mailto:james.d.gifford at gmail.com>>
>>>>>         wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>         Hi Bruce,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         It's confirmed.  There's a ts.
>>>>>>         variant of the note in Victoria,
>>>>>>         and Charles Sligh has confirmed the
>>>>>>         "bisexual love" phrase for the note
>>>>>>         to Balthazar from the British
>>>>>>         Library holdings (I'll check this
>>>>>>         with him case it was actually
>>>>>>         Carbondale...  I could be mistaken).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         I've tried to publish on this, but
>>>>>>         peer review brought out some
>>>>>>         squeamish readers.  That's not
>>>>>>         unusual in work on Durrell.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         It's worth noting how pervasive the
>>>>>>         discussion of bisexuality is in
>>>>>>         Durrell's works. It's there in
>>>>>>         /Pied Piper of Lovers/, and the
>>>>>>         character Pamela is based on a
>>>>>>         bisexual friend of Durrell's, and
>>>>>>         it's there right through the
>>>>>>         Avignon Quintet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         As for the ILDS listserv, indeed
>>>>>>         the Google search function is
>>>>>>         handy!  I use it regularly, and
>>>>>>         tracking shows it gets a great deal
>>>>>>         of use generally as well!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         All best,
>>>>>>         James
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         On 2014-07-21, 8:47 AM, Bruce
>>>>>>         Redwine wrote:
>>>>>>>         According to Michael Haag on
>>>>>>>         4/8/07 (ILDS list), "[Durrell]
>>>>>>>         originally
>>>>>>>         wanted /Justine/ to be described
>>>>>>>         as 'an investigation of bisexual
>>>>>>>         love,'
>>>>>>>         but Faber objected and so it
>>>>>>>         became the anodyne and meaningless
>>>>>>>         'investigation of modern love.'"
>>>>>>>          Haag is referring to the Note at the
>>>>>>>         beginning of the 1958 edition of
>>>>>>>         /Balthazar./
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         What is Haag's source for this
>>>>>>>         claim (original MS? letter? interview?
>>>>>>>         etc.) --- indeed, has it been
>>>>>>>         verified? --- and has this claim been
>>>>>>>         published anywhere?  If so, what
>>>>>>>         is the citation?  Neither Bowker nor
>>>>>>>         MacNiven mention the change from
>>>>>>>         "bisexual" to "modern" in their
>>>>>>>         biographies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         By the way, the Google search
>>>>>>>         function on the ILDS website is most
>>>>>>>         helpful!  My thanks to the webmaster.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         Bruce
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>         ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>>>>         <mailto:ILDS at lists.uvic.ca>
>>>>>>>         https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
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