From Ken.Gammage at directed.com Wed Jul 6 09:25:00 2011 From: Ken.Gammage at directed.com (Ken Gammage) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 09:25:00 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference In-Reply-To: <5F040F1D-517E-4143-A86F-3B15EFD1053C@earthlink.net> References: <5F040F1D-517E-4143-A86F-3B15EFD1053C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <0BEF02A471383D429ADB5873552EF09588DAB55CBE@mail2.directed.com> Reading Rebecca Solnit's Infinite City: A San Francisco Atlas, item 12 of the 49 jewels on the "Treasure Map" (Chapter 21) states: "Labyrinths are newly popular features of the North American landscape, and at least ten are reputed to be in the city..." One of these is at Grace Cathedral on Nob Hill, which surprised me. The Wikipedia article "Labyrinth" has a photo of it: a decorative floor mosaic. (I pictured people staggering around in the dark under the cathedral.) The Wikipedia article does mention Durrell and TDL. Thanks - Ken This email may contain confidential and/or privileged information. It is intended only for the person or persons to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized review, use, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email or telephone and destroy all copies of the original message. From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 7 07:45:33 2011 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 07:45:33 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference In-Reply-To: <0BEF02A471383D429ADB5873552EF09588DAB55CBE@mail2.directed.com> References: <5F040F1D-517E-4143-A86F-3B15EFD1053C@earthlink.net> <0BEF02A471383D429ADB5873552EF09588DAB55CBE@mail2.directed.com> Message-ID: Ken, Thanks. Good article in Wikipedia. Note the article's definition: "In colloquial English, labyrinth is generally synonymous with maze, but many contemporary scholars observe a distinction between the two: maze refers to a complex branching (multicursal) puzzle with choices of path and direction; while a single-path (unicursal) labyrinth has only a single, non-branching path, which leads to the center. A labyrinth in this sense has an unambiguous route to the center and back and is not designed to be difficult to navigate." Now, consider Durrell's first notes on The Dark Labyrinth, as previously mentioned by Richard Pine: "The Maze: the guide dies while conducting a tour of the maze: leaving the dramatis personae lost in it: a boy, a girl, a parson, a policeman, a thief, an undertakere, a whore, an old lady: the stranger." Do you think Durrell was using "maze" in the colloquial sense as being synonymous with "labyrinth," or did he have in mind the specialized sense as noted above? I don't know if British English commonly makes such a distinction. I'll also note that in my brand of American English I think of a maze as an open-air structure located above ground. Durrell's usage suggests to me that he's not making the distinction ? his "maze" is below ground ?but I'm not sure. Bruce On Jul 6, 2011, at 9:25 AM, Ken Gammage wrote: > Reading Rebecca Solnit's Infinite City: A San Francisco Atlas, item 12 of the 49 jewels on the "Treasure Map" (Chapter 21) states: "Labyrinths are newly popular features of the North American landscape, and at least ten are reputed to be in the city..." One of these is at Grace Cathedral on Nob Hill, which surprised me. The Wikipedia article "Labyrinth" has a photo of it: a decorative floor mosaic. (I pictured people staggering around in the dark under the cathedral.) The Wikipedia article does mention Durrell and TDL. > > Thanks - Ken > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20110707/b3ea52e0/attachment.html From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Thu Jul 7 11:56:33 2011 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 14:56:33 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference In-Reply-To: <0BEF02A471383D429ADB5873552EF09588DAB55CBE@mail2.directed.com> References: <5F040F1D-517E-4143-A86F-3B15EFD1053C@earthlink.net>, <0BEF02A471383D429ADB5873552EF09588DAB55CBE@mail2.directed.com> Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201F3E219C1AE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> 1. labyrinth, n. view full entry 1548 ...A structure consisting of a number of intercommunicating passages arranged in bewildering complexity, through which it is difficult or impossible to find one's way without guidance; a maze.... So says the Oxford English Dictionary. The lexicographers use "maze" as a synonym for "labyrinth." Bill W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * * University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * OH 45221-0069 * * ________________________________________ From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Ken Gammage [Ken.Gammage at directed.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 12:25 PM To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference Reading Rebecca Solnit's Infinite City: A San Francisco Atlas, item 12 of the 49 jewels on the "Treasure Map" (Chapter 21) states: "Labyrinths are newly popular features of the North American landscape, and at least ten are reputed to be in the city..." One of these is at Grace Cathedral on Nob Hill, which surprised me. The Wikipedia article "Labyrinth" has a photo of it: a decorative floor mosaic. (I pictured people staggering around in the dark under the cathedral.) The Wikipedia article does mention Durrell and TDL. Thanks - Ken This email may contain confidential and/or privileged information. It is intended only for the person or persons to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized review, use, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email or telephone and destroy all copies of the original message. _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From timlot at comcast.net Thu Jul 7 12:55:54 2011 From: timlot at comcast.net (timlot at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 19:55:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Bruce and Ken, Perhaps consider the ancient? origin of labyrinth? Several years ago, I visited the Middle Kingdom pyramid of Amenemhet III at Hawara in Egypt. I was interested in walking the site in connection with some of the ancient Greek and Roman authors suggesting that the Cretan labyrinth was borrowed from the ancient Egyptians - specifically a labyrinth which supposedly once existed at Hawara . Many of the ancient authors perpetrated tales and myths , and at one time, a researcher suggested that Herodotus may not have even set foot in Egypt. However,? an overview of what a?l abyrinth in ancient Greece or Egypt might have looked like would be interesting - especially in archaeological journals at the time Durrell wrote Dark Labyrinth. Merrianne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Redwine" To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Cc: "Bruce Redwine" Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2011 9:45:33 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference Ken, Thanks. ?Good article in Wikipedia. ?Note the article's definition: ?"I n colloquial English,? labyrinth ?is generally synonymous with? maze , but many contemporary scholars observe a distinction between the two:? maze ?refers to a complex branching (multicursal) puzzle with choices of path and direction; while a single-path (unicursal)? labyrinth ?has only a single, non-branching path, which leads to the center. A labyrinth in this sense has an unambiguous route to the center and back and is not designed to be difficult to navigate." Now, consider Durrell's first notes on The Dark Labyrinth, as previously mentioned by Richard Pine:??" The Maze: ?the guide dies ? while conducting a tour of the maze: ?leaving the dramatis personae lost in it: ?a ? boy, a girl, a parson, a policeman, a thief, an undertakere, a whore, an old ? lady: ?the stranger." Do you think Durrell was using "maze" in the colloquial sense as being synonymous with "labyrinth," or did he have in mind the specialized sense as noted above? ?I don't know if British English commonly makes such a distinction. ?I'll also note that in my brand of American English I think of a maze as an open-air structure located above ground. ?Durrell's usage suggests to me that he's not making the distinction ? his "maze" is below ground ?but I'm not sure. Bruce On Jul 6, 2011, at 9:25 AM, Ken Gammage wrote: Reading Rebecca Solnit's Infinite City: A San Francisco Atlas, item 12 of the 49 jewels on the "Treasure Map" (Chapter 21) states: "Labyrinths are newly popular features of the North American landscape, and at least ten are reputed to be in the city..." One of these is at Grace Cathedral on Nob Hill, which surprised me. The Wikipedia article "Labyrinth" has a photo of it: a decorative floor mosaic. (I pictured people staggering around in the dark under the cathedral.) The Wikipedia article does mention Durrell and TDL. Thanks - Ken _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20110707/496f6182/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 7 13:15:02 2011 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 13:15:02 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201F3E219C1AE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: <5F040F1D-517E-4143-A86F-3B15EFD1053C@earthlink.net>, <0BEF02A471383D429ADB5873552EF09588DAB55CBE@mail2.directed.com> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201F3E219C1AE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: <11F674CD-63EE-4B02-B76C-94BB8FDE1E14@earthlink.net> Yes, that's my sense of Durrell's usage. But let's quibble over semantics. In British English, can you have the phrase, "the dark maze?" If not, then something else is going on in Durrell's use of maze. My American lexicon rejects the usage or marks it as odd. Bruce On Jul 7, 2011, at 11:56 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > 1. labyrinth, n. view full entry 1548 > ...A structure consisting of a number of intercommunicating passages arranged in bewildering complexity, through which it is difficult or impossible to find one's way without guidance; a maze.... > > So says the Oxford English Dictionary. > > The lexicographers use "maze" as a synonym for "labyrinth." > > Bill > > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * * > University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * > OH 45221-0069 * * > ________________________________________ > From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Ken Gammage [Ken.Gammage at directed.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 12:25 PM > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference > > Reading Rebecca Solnit's Infinite City: A San Francisco Atlas, item 12 of the 49 jewels on the "Treasure Map" (Chapter 21) states: "Labyrinths are newly popular features of the North American landscape, and at least ten are reputed to be in the city..." One of these is at Grace Cathedral on Nob Hill, which surprised me. The Wikipedia article "Labyrinth" has a photo of it: a decorative floor mosaic. (I pictured people staggering around in the dark under the cathedral.) The Wikipedia article does mention Durrell and TDL. > > Thanks - Ken > > > This email may contain confidential and/or privileged > information. It is intended only for the person or persons to > whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized review, use, or > distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender by reply email or > telephone and destroy all copies of the original message. > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20110707/ad8a3e49/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jul 8 07:08:30 2011 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 07:08:30 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference In-Reply-To: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Merrianne, Little remains of Amenemhet's "Labyrinth" at Hawara, which is in the Fayum depression, about forty-five miles southwest of the base of the Delta. Herodotus and Pliny have elaborate descriptions of a temple complex and underground crypts, but there's no evidence for the former, according to R. H. Wilkinson in The Complete Temples of Ancient Egypt (2000). So in ancient times the "labyrinth" was more like my notion of an above ground "maze." I can't recall if Durrell visited it. I don't have the impression that he took much interest in Ancient Egyptian culture. Perhaps someone can comment on why that was the case. I think he just hated Egypt, as his letters to Miller indicate. Bruce On Jul 7, 2011, at 12:55 PM, timlot at comcast.net wrote: > Bruce and Ken, > > Perhaps consider the ancient origin of labyrinth? > > Several years ago, I visited the Middle Kingdom pyramid of Amenemhet III at Hawara in Egypt. I was interested in walking the site in connection with some of the ancient Greek and Roman authors suggesting that the Cretan labyrinth was borrowed from the ancient Egyptians - specifically a labyrinth which supposedly once existed at Hawara. > > Many of the ancient authors perpetrated tales and myths, and at one time, a researcher suggested that Herodotus may not have even set foot in Egypt. However, an overview of what a labyrinth in ancient Greece or Egypt might have looked like would be interesting - especially in archaeological journals at the time Durrell wrote Dark Labyrinth. > > Merrianne > From: "Bruce Redwine" > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Cc: "Bruce Redwine" > Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2011 9:45:33 AM > Subject: Re: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference > > Ken, > > Thanks. Good article in Wikipedia. Note the article's definition: "In colloquial English, labyrinth is generally synonymous with maze, but many contemporary scholars observe a distinction between the two: maze refers to a complex branching (multicursal) puzzle with choices of path and direction; while a single-path (unicursal) labyrinth has only a single, non-branching path, which leads to the center. A labyrinth in this sense has an unambiguous route to the center and back and is not designed to be difficult to navigate." > > Now, consider Durrell's first notes on The Dark Labyrinth, as previously mentioned by Richard Pine: "The Maze: the guide dies while conducting a tour of the maze: leaving the dramatis personae lost in it: a boy, a girl, a parson, a policeman, a thief, an undertakere, a whore, an old lady: the stranger." > > Do you think Durrell was using "maze" in the colloquial sense as being synonymous with "labyrinth," or did he have in mind the specialized sense as noted above? I don't know if British English commonly makes such a distinction. I'll also note that in my brand of American English I think of a maze as an open-air structure located above ground. Durrell's usage suggests to me that he's not making the distinction ? his "maze" is below ground ?but I'm not sure. > > > Bruce > > > > On Jul 6, 2011, at 9:25 AM, Ken Gammage wrote: > > Reading Rebecca Solnit's Infinite City: A San Francisco Atlas, item 12 of the 49 jewels on the "Treasure Map" (Chapter 21) states: "Labyrinths are newly popular features of the North American landscape, and at least ten are reputed to be in the city..." One of these is at Grace Cathedral on Nob Hill, which surprised me. The Wikipedia article "Labyrinth" has a photo of it: a decorative floor mosaic. (I pictured people staggering around in the dark under the cathedral.) The Wikipedia article does mention Durrell and TDL. > > Thanks - Ken > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20110708/bec266ed/attachment.html From rpinecorfu at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 09:03:39 2011 From: rpinecorfu at yahoo.com (Richard Pine) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 09:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference In-Reply-To: References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Whether he 'took much interest in Ancient Egyptian culture' is a moot point, but his personal library contained many volumes on the subject. RP From: Bruce Redwine To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Cc: Bruce Redwine Sent: Friday, July 8, 2011 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference Merrianne, Little remains of Amenemhet's "Labyrinth" at Hawara, which is in the Fayum depression, about forty-five miles southwest of the base of the Delta. ?Herodotus and Pliny have elaborate descriptions of a temple complex and underground crypts, but there's no evidence for the former, according to R. H. Wilkinson in The Complete Temples of Ancient Egypt (2000). ?So in ancient times the "labyrinth" was more like my notion of an above ground "maze." ?I can't recall if Durrell visited it. ?I don't have the impression that he took much interest in Ancient Egyptian culture. ?Perhaps someone can comment on why that was the case. ?I think he just hated Egypt, as his letters to Miller indicate. Bruce On Jul 7, 2011, at 12:55 PM, timlot at comcast.net wrote: Bruce and Ken, >? >Perhaps consider the ancient?origin of labyrinth? >? >Several years ago, I visited the Middle Kingdom pyramid of Amenemhet III at Hawara in Egypt. I was interested in walking the site in connection with some of the ancient Greek and Roman authors suggesting that the Cretan labyrinth was borrowed from the ancient Egyptians - specifically a labyrinth which supposedly once existed at Hawara. >? >Many of the ancient authors perpetrated tales and myths, and at one time, a researcher suggested that Herodotus may not have even set foot in Egypt. However,?an overview of what a?labyrinth in ancient Greece or Egypt might have looked like would be interesting - especially in archaeological journals at the time Durrell wrote Dark Labyrinth. >? >Merrianne >From:?"Bruce Redwine" >To:?ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Cc:?"Bruce Redwine" >Sent:?Thursday, July 7, 2011 9:45:33 AM >Subject:?Re: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference > >Ken, > > >Thanks. ?Good article in Wikipedia. ?Note the article's definition: ?"In colloquial English,?labyrinth?is generally synonymous with?maze, but many contemporary scholars observe a distinction between the two:?maze?refers to a complex branching (multicursal) puzzle with choices of path and direction; while a single-path (unicursal)?labyrinth?has only a single, non-branching path, which leads to the center. A labyrinth in this sense has an unambiguous route to the center and back and is not designed to be difficult to navigate." > > >Now, consider Durrell's first notes on?The Dark Labyrinth,?as previously mentioned by Richard Pine:??"The Maze: ?the guide dies?while conducting a tour of the maze: ?leaving the dramatis personae lost in it: ?a?boy, a girl, a parson, a policeman, a thief, an undertakere, a whore, an old?lady: ?the stranger." > > >Do you think Durrell was using "maze" in the colloquial sense as being synonymous with "labyrinth," or did he have in mind the specialized sense as noted above? ?I don't know if British English commonly makes such a distinction. ?I'll also note that in my brand of American English I think of a maze as an open-air structure located above ground. ?Durrell's usage suggests to me that he's not making the distinction ? his "maze" is below ground ?but I'm not sure. > > > > >Bruce > > > > > > >On Jul 6, 2011, at 9:25 AM, Ken Gammage wrote: > >Reading Rebecca Solnit's Infinite City: A San Francisco Atlas, item 12 of the 49 jewels on the "Treasure Map" (Chapter 21) states: "Labyrinths are newly popular features of the North American landscape, and at least ten are reputed to be in the city..." One of these is at Grace Cathedral on Nob Hill, which surprised me. The Wikipedia article "Labyrinth" has a photo of it: a decorative floor mosaic. (I pictured people staggering around in the dark under the cathedral.) The Wikipedia article does mention Durrell and TDL. >> >>Thanks - Ken >> >> _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20110708/d28c3729/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jul 8 11:16:52 2011 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 11:16:52 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference In-Reply-To: <1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net> Serious histories of Ancient Egypt or travel/ethnographic literature? I'd wager the books on Egypt in Durrell's library were largely for research ? the kind that gets incorporated, almost in toto on one occasion, into the Quartet. Atmospheric material. Bill Godshalk has covered aspects of this subject in his article in MFS (1967). As far as Durrell's attitude towards Egypt goes, ancient and modern, I'll rely upon what he himself complains about to Henry Miller in the letters. I don't see much enthusiasm for Ancient Egyptian culture, certainly nothing that equals his admiration of the Greeks. Egypt has the greatest collection of ancient ruins and monuments in the world. Is there any evidence that Durrell spent much time exploring this vast open-air museum? I meant "the latter" below, i.e., no evidence for crypts. Bruce On Jul 8, 2011, at 9:03 AM, Richard Pine wrote: > Whether he 'took much interest in Ancient Egyptian culture' is a moot point, but his personal library contained many volumes on the subject. > RP > > From: Bruce Redwine > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Cc: Bruce Redwine > Sent: Friday, July 8, 2011 5:08 PM > Subject: Re: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference > > Merrianne, > > Little remains of Amenemhet's "Labyrinth" at Hawara, which is in the Fayum depression, about forty-five miles southwest of the base of the Delta. Herodotus and Pliny have elaborate descriptions of a temple complex and underground crypts, but there's no evidence for the former, according to R. H. Wilkinson in The Complete Temples of Ancient Egypt (2000). So in ancient times the "labyrinth" was more like my notion of an above ground "maze." I can't recall if Durrell visited it. I don't have the impression that he took much interest in Ancient Egyptian culture. Perhaps someone can comment on why that was the case. I think he just hated Egypt, as his letters to Miller indicate. > > > Bruce > > > > On Jul 7, 2011, at 12:55 PM, timlot at comcast.net wrote: > >> Bruce and Ken, >> >> Perhaps consider the ancient origin of labyrinth? >> >> Several years ago, I visited the Middle Kingdom pyramid of Amenemhet III at Hawara in Egypt. I was interested in walking the site in connection with some of the ancient Greek and Roman authors suggesting that the Cretan labyrinth was borrowed from the ancient Egyptians - specifically a labyrinth which supposedly once existed at Hawara. >> >> Many of the ancient authors perpetrated tales and myths, and at one time, a researcher suggested that Herodotus may not have even set foot in Egypt. However, an overview of what a labyrinth in ancient Greece or Egypt might have looked like would be interesting - especially in archaeological journals at the time Durrell wrote Dark Labyrinth. >> >> Merrianne >> From: "Bruce Redwine" >> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> Cc: "Bruce Redwine" >> Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2011 9:45:33 AM >> Subject: Re: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference >> >> Ken, >> >> Thanks. Good article in Wikipedia. Note the article's definition: "In colloquial English, labyrinth is generally synonymous with maze, but many contemporary scholars observe a distinction between the two: maze refers to a complex branching (multicursal) puzzle with choices of path and direction; while a single-path (unicursal) labyrinth has only a single, non-branching path, which leads to the center. A labyrinth in this sense has an unambiguous route to the center and back and is not designed to be difficult to navigate." >> >> Now, consider Durrell's first notes on The Dark Labyrinth, as previously mentioned by Richard Pine: "The Maze: the guide dies while conducting a tour of the maze: leaving the dramatis personae lost in it: a boy, a girl, a parson, a policeman, a thief, an undertakere, a whore, an old lady: the stranger." >> >> Do you think Durrell was using "maze" in the colloquial sense as being synonymous with "labyrinth," or did he have in mind the specialized sense as noted above? I don't know if British English commonly makes such a distinction. I'll also note that in my brand of American English I think of a maze as an open-air structure located above ground. Durrell's usage suggests to me that he's not making the distinction ? his "maze" is below ground ?but I'm not sure. >> >> >> Bruce >> >> >> >> On Jul 6, 2011, at 9:25 AM, Ken Gammage wrote: >> >> Reading Rebecca Solnit's Infinite City: A San Francisco Atlas, item 12 of the 49 jewels on the "Treasure Map" (Chapter 21) states: "Labyrinths are newly popular features of the North American landscape, and at least ten are reputed to be in the city..." One of these is at Grace Cathedral on Nob Hill, which surprised me. The Wikipedia article "Labyrinth" has a photo of it: a decorative floor mosaic. (I pictured people staggering around in the dark under the cathedral.) The Wikipedia article does mention Durrell and TDL. >> >> Thanks - Ken >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20110708/52ca2ee9/attachment.html From james.d.gifford at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 11:28:54 2011 From: james.d.gifford at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 11:28:54 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference In-Reply-To: <52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net> References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com> > As far as Durrell's attitude towards Egypt goes, > ancient and modern, I'll rely upon what he himself > complains about to Henry Miller in the letters. There's praise in other places as well, so I wouldn't simplify it to a single reaction he had to Egypt. There are always complicating matters... That said, I don't think one could say he like the climate or circumstances! > Is there any > evidence that Durrell spent much time exploring > this vast open-air museum? There is, but it's not extensive. For that matter, there's good evidence for Durrell's exploration of the "vast open-air museum" in Greece as well, but likewise, not extensive, per se. My hunch is that the circumstances contributed -- Egypt may have carried an air of unreality during the war, but there were very significant threats, and personal travel to the sites may not have been terribly convenient, especially under the work pressures. That's a major difference from his years in Greece. In Stephanides' memoirs, he recounts visiting the Pyramids and the Queen's Tombs escorted by George Andrew Reisner (via Durrell's connection, not Stephanides'). Now, back to administravia! Cheers, James From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jul 8 11:53:32 2011 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 11:53:32 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference In-Reply-To: <4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com> References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net> <4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <917BBDBB-F5F8-4AE2-A9FD-1850297CC3F9@earthlink.net> Durrell writes no travel books on Egypt and its ancient past. No pilgrimages to the Pyramids of Giza or the temples complexes of Thebes. No sitting on a broken column and musing about "the splendor that was Egypt" (Margaret Murray's title for her 1949 book). It's safe to say that LGD was not bitten by "Egyptomania." Bruce On Jul 8, 2011, at 11:28 AM, James Gifford wrote: >> As far as Durrell's attitude towards Egypt goes, >> ancient and modern, I'll rely upon what he himself >> complains about to Henry Miller in the letters. > > There's praise in other places as well, so I wouldn't simplify it to a > single reaction he had to Egypt. There are always complicating > matters... That said, I don't think one could say he like the climate > or circumstances! > >> Is there any >> evidence that Durrell spent much time exploring >> this vast open-air museum? > > There is, but it's not extensive. For that matter, there's good > evidence for Durrell's exploration of the "vast open-air museum" in > Greece as well, but likewise, not extensive, per se. My hunch is that > the circumstances contributed -- Egypt may have carried an air of > unreality during the war, but there were very significant threats, and > personal travel to the sites may not have been terribly convenient, > especially under the work pressures. That's a major difference from his > years in Greece. > > In Stephanides' memoirs, he recounts visiting the Pyramids and the > Queen's Tombs escorted by George Andrew Reisner (via Durrell's > connection, not Stephanides'). > > Now, back to administravia! > > Cheers, > James From james.d.gifford at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 11:58:16 2011 From: james.d.gifford at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 11:58:16 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference In-Reply-To: <917BBDBB-F5F8-4AE2-A9FD-1850297CC3F9@earthlink.net> References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net> <4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com> <917BBDBB-F5F8-4AE2-A9FD-1850297CC3F9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4E175348.7090308@gmail.com> I see your point, Bruce, but couldn't one also note the four most famous books Durrell wrote and their locale? Is there a different way to articulate your argument that gets around that? After all, the AQ does teem with allusions to Ancient Egypt, though I'll certainly admit that there isn't the same kind of adoration one finds in his books about Greece. Still, "he hated Egypt" seems oversimplified to me -- I suspect something else is afoot. But my student advising files issue their siren call... Not tempting, that is, but certain to lead to doom. Best, James On 08/07/11 11:53 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > Durrell writes no travel books on Egypt and its ancient past. No pilgrimages to the Pyramids of Giza or the temples complexes of Thebes. No sitting on a broken column and musing about "the splendor that was Egypt" (Margaret Murray's title for her 1949 book). It's safe to say that LGD was not bitten by "Egyptomania." > > > Bruce > > > > On Jul 8, 2011, at 11:28 AM, James Gifford wrote: > >>> As far as Durrell's attitude towards Egypt goes, >>> ancient and modern, I'll rely upon what he himself >>> complains about to Henry Miller in the letters. >> >> There's praise in other places as well, so I wouldn't simplify it to a >> single reaction he had to Egypt. There are always complicating >> matters... That said, I don't think one could say he like the climate >> or circumstances! >> >>> Is there any >>> evidence that Durrell spent much time exploring >>> this vast open-air museum? >> >> There is, but it's not extensive. For that matter, there's good >> evidence for Durrell's exploration of the "vast open-air museum" in >> Greece as well, but likewise, not extensive, per se. My hunch is that >> the circumstances contributed -- Egypt may have carried an air of >> unreality during the war, but there were very significant threats, and >> personal travel to the sites may not have been terribly convenient, >> especially under the work pressures. That's a major difference from his >> years in Greece. >> >> In Stephanides' memoirs, he recounts visiting the Pyramids and the >> Queen's Tombs escorted by George Andrew Reisner (via Durrell's >> connection, not Stephanides'). >> >> Now, back to administravia! >> >> Cheers, >> James > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Fri Jul 8 12:36:25 2011 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 15:36:25 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference In-Reply-To: <4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com> References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net>, <4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201F3E219C1B2@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Just a note: when writing about Durrell, there are two AQs. One Alexandria, the other Avignon. Aren't there some Egyptian travels in the latter? W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * * University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * OH 45221-0069 * * ________________________________________ From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of James Gifford [james.d.gifford at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 2:28 PM To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Subject: Re: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference > As far as Durrell's attitude towards Egypt goes, > ancient and modern, I'll rely upon what he himself > complains about to Henry Miller in the letters. There's praise in other places as well, so I wouldn't simplify it to a single reaction he had to Egypt. There are always complicating matters... That said, I don't think one could say he like the climate or circumstances! > Is there any > evidence that Durrell spent much time exploring > this vast open-air museum? There is, but it's not extensive. For that matter, there's good evidence for Durrell's exploration of the "vast open-air museum" in Greece as well, but likewise, not extensive, per se. My hunch is that the circumstances contributed -- Egypt may have carried an air of unreality during the war, but there were very significant threats, and personal travel to the sites may not have been terribly convenient, especially under the work pressures. That's a major difference from his years in Greece. In Stephanides' memoirs, he recounts visiting the Pyramids and the Queen's Tombs escorted by George Andrew Reisner (via Durrell's connection, not Stephanides'). Now, back to administravia! Cheers, James _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jul 8 13:38:57 2011 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 13:38:57 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201F3E219C1B2@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net>, <4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201F3E219C1B2@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: <28B26970-484A-4E0D-92F9-346CADB5399A@earthlink.net> The journey to the oasis of Macabru, east of Alex, in Monsieur? That strikes me as pure invention. With Durrell, of course, it's hard to say what's not invented. Anyway, it's not the sort of traveling writing that would do a good job of selling Egypt as a tourist destination. Not like Alex in the Quartet. Bruce On Jul 8, 2011, at 12:36 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > Just a note: when writing about Durrell, there are two AQs. One Alexandria, the other Avignon. Aren't there some Egyptian travels in the latter? > > > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * * > University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * > OH 45221-0069 * * > ________________________________________ > From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of James Gifford [james.d.gifford at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 2:28 PM > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Subject: Re: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference > >> As far as Durrell's attitude towards Egypt goes, >> ancient and modern, I'll rely upon what he himself >> complains about to Henry Miller in the letters. > > There's praise in other places as well, so I wouldn't simplify it to a > single reaction he had to Egypt. There are always complicating > matters... That said, I don't think one could say he like the climate > or circumstances! > >> Is there any >> evidence that Durrell spent much time exploring >> this vast open-air museum? > > There is, but it's not extensive. For that matter, there's good > evidence for Durrell's exploration of the "vast open-air museum" in > Greece as well, but likewise, not extensive, per se. My hunch is that > the circumstances contributed -- Egypt may have carried an air of > unreality during the war, but there were very significant threats, and > personal travel to the sites may not have been terribly convenient, > especially under the work pressures. That's a major difference from his > years in Greece. > > In Stephanides' memoirs, he recounts visiting the Pyramids and the > Queen's Tombs escorted by George Andrew Reisner (via Durrell's > connection, not Stephanides'). > > Now, back to administravia! > > Cheers, > James > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20110708/a3196aaa/attachment.html From Ken.Gammage at directed.com Fri Jul 8 14:15:08 2011 From: Ken.Gammage at directed.com (Ken Gammage) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 14:15:08 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201F3E219C1B2@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net>, <4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201F3E219C1B2@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: <0BEF02A471383D429ADB5873552EF09588DAC7F8C3@mail2.directed.com> That's a good point Bill. In Monsieur there are two evocative descriptions of Egypt: a sailing trip on the Nile, and the visit to Macabru, a kind of temporary "Burning Man"-type festival. The first might be said to be a nostalgic postcard for a care-free consular past: a very positive vision of a diplomatic lifestyle that probably no longer exists. Macabru is focused on and seen through the lens of Durrell's version of Gnosticism, within which Piers and Bruce are to become intimately involved. In reference to the discussion we've been having, I don't think there's much about Ancient Egypt in either AQ? Thanks - Ken -----Original Message----- From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [mailto:ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Godshalk, William (godshawl) Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 12:36 PM To: gifford at fdu.edu; ilds at lists.uvic.ca Subject: Re: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference Just a note: when writing about Durrell, there are two AQs. One Alexandria, the other Avignon. Aren't there some Egyptian travels in the latter? W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * * University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * OH 45221-0069 * * ________________________________________ From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of James Gifford [james.d.gifford at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 2:28 PM To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Subject: Re: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference > As far as Durrell's attitude towards Egypt goes, > ancient and modern, I'll rely upon what he himself > complains about to Henry Miller in the letters. There's praise in other places as well, so I wouldn't simplify it to a single reaction he had to Egypt. There are always complicating matters... That said, I don't think one could say he like the climate or circumstances! > Is there any > evidence that Durrell spent much time exploring > this vast open-air museum? There is, but it's not extensive. For that matter, there's good evidence for Durrell's exploration of the "vast open-air museum" in Greece as well, but likewise, not extensive, per se. My hunch is that the circumstances contributed -- Egypt may have carried an air of unreality during the war, but there were very significant threats, and personal travel to the sites may not have been terribly convenient, especially under the work pressures. That's a major difference from his years in Greece. In Stephanides' memoirs, he recounts visiting the Pyramids and the Queen's Tombs escorted by George Andrew Reisner (via Durrell's connection, not Stephanides'). Now, back to administravia! Cheers, James _______________________________________________ This email may contain confidential and/or privileged information. It is intended only for the person or persons to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized review, use, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email or telephone and destroy all copies of the original message. From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jul 8 14:34:57 2011 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 14:34:57 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference In-Reply-To: <0BEF02A471383D429ADB5873552EF09588DAC7F8C3@mail2.directed.com> References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net> <4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201F3E219C1B2@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <0BEF02A471383D429ADB5873552EF09588DAC7F8C3@mail2.directed.com> Message-ID: Does the Oasis of Macabru exist? James has something to say about it's fictionality somewhere. The name of some Gnostic? Also, it's supposedly east of Alex. Wouldn't it more geographical sense to say west of Alex? Bruce Sent from my iPhone On Jul 8, 2011, at 2:15 PM, Ken Gammage wrote: > That's a good point Bill. In Monsieur there are two evocative descriptions of Egypt: a sailing trip on the Nile, and the visit to Macabru, a kind of temporary "Burning Man"-type festival. The first might be said to be a nostalgic postcard for a care-free consular past: a very positive vision of a diplomatic lifestyle that probably no longer exists. Macabru is focused on and seen through the lens of Durrell's version of Gnosticism, within which Piers and Bruce are to become intimately involved. In reference to the discussion we've been having, I don't think there's much about Ancient Egypt in either AQ? > > Thanks - Ken > > -----Original Message----- > From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [mailto:ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Godshalk, William (godshawl) > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 12:36 PM > To: gifford at fdu.edu; ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Subject: Re: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference > > Just a note: when writing about Durrell, there are two AQs. One Alexandria, the other Avignon. Aren't there some Egyptian travels in the latter? > > > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * * > University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * > OH 45221-0069 * * > ________________________________________ > From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of James Gifford [james.d.gifford at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 2:28 PM > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Subject: Re: [ilds] Another labyrinth reference > >> As far as Durrell's attitude towards Egypt goes, >> ancient and modern, I'll rely upon what he himself >> complains about to Henry Miller in the letters. > > There's praise in other places as well, so I wouldn't simplify it to a > single reaction he had to Egypt. There are always complicating > matters... That said, I don't think one could say he like the climate > or circumstances! > >> Is there any >> evidence that Durrell spent much time exploring >> this vast open-air museum? > > There is, but it's not extensive. For that matter, there's good > evidence for Durrell's exploration of the "vast open-air museum" in > Greece as well, but likewise, not extensive, per se. My hunch is that > the circumstances contributed -- Egypt may have carried an air of > unreality during the war, but there were very significant threats, and > personal travel to the sites may not have been terribly convenient, > especially under the work pressures. That's a major difference from his > years in Greece. > > In Stephanides' memoirs, he recounts visiting the Pyramids and the > Queen's Tombs escorted by George Andrew Reisner (via Durrell's > connection, not Stephanides'). > > Now, back to administravia! > > Cheers, > James > _______________________________________________ > > This email may contain confidential and/or privileged > information. It is intended only for the person or persons to > whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized review, use, or > distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender by reply email or > telephone and destroy all copies of the original message. > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sat Jul 9 09:13:38 2011 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 09:13:38 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Egypt In-Reply-To: <4E175348.7090308@gmail.com> References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net> <4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com> <917BBDBB-F5F8-4AE2-A9FD-1850297CC3F9@earthlink.net> <4E175348.7090308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3AC7E7CA-5E1A-4239-9745-933FEE7C4BC1@earthlink.net> As described in The Alexandria Quartet, Durrell's Egypt is essentially Alexandria and the Delta, both in terms of locale and history. The Romans called Alexandria Alexandrea ad Aegyptum, Alexandria by Egypt, not in Egypt. Which I also take as Durrell's attitude. I would limit Durrell's historical interest to the Ptolemaic, Roman, Christian, and modern periods (331-30 BC, 30 BC - 640 AD, 1805 - 1944 AD). That's pretty much the same ground E. M. Forster covers in his two books on Alexandria. Pretty much the same as C. P. Cavafy's historical framework. When I first read the Quartet, I was saddened that I had very little sense of Ancient Egypt, the Egypt of Dynasties One through Twenty-Six (roughly 3000 BC - 525 BC). Balthazar opens with a reference to the "Harpoon Men" (Narmer's Harpoon Kingdom and Dynasty "Zero"), but that's all that immediately comes to mind, besides some scattered references to gods and monuments. Nothing substantive and no trips into Upper Egypt. Even Cairo gets lightly treated. So, Durrell's Alexandrian home is Michael Haag's "cosmopolis." Read his Alexandria: City of Memory (2004) for a fine description and account of that great moment in time ? the city of Cavafy, Forster, and Durrell. It may be too strong to say Durrell hated the rest of Egypt. But I don't think he liked or admired it, and he did not find the richness of pharaonic culture as a useful source or inspiration. I also think he would have probably laughed at Martin Bernal's theory of "Black Athena," namely, the roots of Classical Greek Culture being in Egypt and Africa. Bruce On Jul 8, 2011, at 11:58 AM, James Gifford wrote: > I see your point, Bruce, but couldn't one also note the four most famous > books Durrell wrote and their locale? Is there a different way to > articulate your argument that gets around that? After all, the AQ does > teem with allusions to Ancient Egypt, though I'll certainly admit that > there isn't the same kind of adoration one finds in his books about > Greece. Still, "he hated Egypt" seems oversimplified to me -- I suspect > something else is afoot. > > But my student advising files issue their siren call... Not tempting, > that is, but certain to lead to doom. > > Best, > James > > On 08/07/11 11:53 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >> Durrell writes no travel books on Egypt and its ancient past. No pilgrimages to the Pyramids of Giza or the temples complexes of Thebes. No sitting on a broken column and musing about "the splendor that was Egypt" (Margaret Murray's title for her 1949 book). It's safe to say that LGD was not bitten by "Egyptomania." >> >> >> Bruce >> >> >> >> On Jul 8, 2011, at 11:28 AM, James Gifford wrote: >> >>>> As far as Durrell's attitude towards Egypt goes, >>>> ancient and modern, I'll rely upon what he himself >>>> complains about to Henry Miller in the letters. >>> >>> There's praise in other places as well, so I wouldn't simplify it to a >>> single reaction he had to Egypt. There are always complicating >>> matters... That said, I don't think one could say he like the climate >>> or circumstances! >>> >>>> Is there any >>>> evidence that Durrell spent much time exploring >>>> this vast open-air museum? >>> >>> There is, but it's not extensive. For that matter, there's good >>> evidence for Durrell's exploration of the "vast open-air museum" in >>> Greece as well, but likewise, not extensive, per se. My hunch is that >>> the circumstances contributed -- Egypt may have carried an air of >>> unreality during the war, but there were very significant threats, and >>> personal travel to the sites may not have been terribly convenient, >>> especially under the work pressures. That's a major difference from his >>> years in Greece. >>> >>> In Stephanides' memoirs, he recounts visiting the Pyramids and the >>> Queen's Tombs escorted by George Andrew Reisner (via Durrell's >>> connection, not Stephanides'). >>> >>> Now, back to administravia! >>> >>> Cheers, >>> James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20110709/a5f3173c/attachment.html From rpinecorfu at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 09:44:05 2011 From: rpinecorfu at yahoo.com (Richard Pine) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 09:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Egypt In-Reply-To: <3AC7E7CA-5E1A-4239-9745-933FEE7C4BC1@earthlink.net> References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net> <4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com> <917BBDBB-F5F8-4AE2-A9FD-1850297CC3F9@earthlink.net> <4E175348.7090308@gmail.com> <3AC7E7CA-5E1A-4239-9745-933FEE7C4BC1@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1310229845.8692.YahooMailNeo@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> 'Hate' is maybe too strong a word, but LD was very sensitive to atmosphere, and, as with Tito's Belgrade/Yugoslavia, he thoroughly disliked most of the Egyptian context. I haven't my notes to hand, but, as far as I can recall, his Egyptian notebook emphasises 'beggars... filth...' which finds its way into the AQ as an analogue: 'a thousand dust-tormented streets', and the many examples of squalor and even the 'purple passages' such as the camels being hacked to death - not a very endearing image for post-war Britain. He simply disliked most of the physical reality of the cities, and this can often lead one to dislike the people who are, to use a word he employed often, the 'affects' of that place. Except, of course, for the iconic characters who act out his story, e.g. 'Justine.. simply..IS'. RP From: Bruce Redwine To: gifford at fdu.edu; ilds at lists.uvic.ca Cc: Bruce Redwine Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 7:13 PM Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Egypt As described in The Alexandria Quartet, Durrell's Egypt is essentially Alexandria and the Delta, both in terms of locale and history. ?The Romans called Alexandria Alexandrea ad Aegyptum, Alexandria by Egypt, not in Egypt. ?Which I also take as Durrell's attitude. ?I would limit Durrell's historical interest to the Ptolemaic, Roman, Christian, and modern periods (331-30 BC, 30 BC - 640 AD, 1805 - 1944 AD). ?That's pretty much the same ground E. M. Forster covers in his two books on Alexandria. ?Pretty much the same as C. P. Cavafy's historical framework. ?When I first read the Quartet, I was saddened that I had very little sense of Ancient Egypt, the Egypt of Dynasties One through Twenty-Six (roughly 3000 BC - 525 BC). ?Balthazar opens with a?reference to the "Harpoon Men" (Narmer's Harpoon Kingdom and Dynasty "Zero"), but that's all that immediately comes to mind, besides some scattered references to gods and monuments. ?Nothing substantive and no trips into Upper Egypt. ?Even Cairo gets lightly treated. ?So, Durrell's Alexandrian home is Michael Haag's "cosmopolis." ?Read his Alexandria: ?City of Memory (2004) for a fine description and account of that great moment in time ? the city of?Cavafy,?Forster, and Durrell. ?It may be too strong to say Durrell hated the rest of Egypt. ?But I don't think he liked or admired it, and he did not find the richness of pharaonic culture as a useful source or inspiration. ?I also think he would have probably laughed at Martin Bernal's theory of "Black Athena," namely, the roots of Classical?Greek?Culture being in Egypt and Africa.? Bruce On Jul 8, 2011, at 11:58 AM, James Gifford wrote: I see your point, Bruce, but couldn't one also note the four most famous >books Durrell wrote and their locale? ?Is there a different way to >articulate your argument that gets around that? ?After all, the AQ does >teem with allusions to Ancient Egypt, though I'll certainly admit that >there isn't the same kind of adoration one finds in his books about >Greece. ?Still, "he hated Egypt" seems oversimplified to me -- I suspect >something else is afoot. > >But my student advising files issue their siren call... ?Not tempting, >that is, but certain to lead to doom. > >Best, >James > >On 08/07/11 11:53 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > >Durrell writes no travel books on Egypt and its ancient past. ?No pilgrimages to the Pyramids of Giza or the temples complexes of Thebes. ?No sitting on a broken column and musing about "the splendor that was Egypt" (Margaret Murray's title for her 1949 book). ?It's safe to say that LGD was not bitten by "Egyptomania." >> > >> > >> >Bruce >> > >> > >> > >> >On Jul 8, 2011, at 11:28 AM, James Gifford wrote: >> > >> >As far as Durrell's attitude towards Egypt goes, >>>> >ancient and modern, I'll rely upon what he himself >>>> >complains about to Henry Miller in the letters. >>>> > >>> >There's praise in other places as well, so I wouldn't simplify it to a >>> >single reaction he had to Egypt. ?There are always complicating >>> >matters... ?That said, I don't think one could say he like the climate >>> >or circumstances! >>> > >>> >Is there any >>>> >evidence that Durrell spent much time exploring >>>> >this vast open-air museum? >>>> > >>> >There is, but it's not extensive. ?For that matter, there's good >>> >evidence for Durrell's exploration of the "vast open-air museum" in >>> >Greece as well, but likewise, not extensive, per se. ?My hunch is that >>> >the circumstances contributed -- Egypt may have carried an air of >>> >unreality during the war, but there were very significant threats, and >>> >personal travel to the sites may not have been terribly convenient, >>> >especially under the work pressures. ?That's a major difference from his >>> >years in Greece. >>> > >>> >In Stephanides' memoirs, he recounts visiting the Pyramids and the >>> >Queen's Tombs escorted by George Andrew Reisner (via Durrell's >>> >connection, not Stephanides'). >>> > >>> >Now, back to administravia! >>> > >>> >Cheers, >>> >James >>> _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20110709/7fb7731c/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sat Jul 9 12:05:18 2011 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 12:05:18 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Egypt In-Reply-To: <1310229845.8692.YahooMailNeo@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net> <4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com> <917BBDBB-F5F8-4AE2-A9FD-1850297CC3F9@earthlink.net> <4E175348.7090308@gmail.com> <3AC7E7CA-5E1A-4239-9745-933FEE7C4BC1@earthlink.net> <1310229845.8692.YahooMailNeo@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I agree. Durrell disliked Egypt. My question is, how did get to "beloved Alexandria!" My answer is memory, the power of Proustian memory. You'll also recall he wrote to Miller in August 1936 that he was slowly destroying memory. A contradiction? Bruce Sent from my iPhone On Jul 9, 2011, at 9:44 AM, Richard Pine wrote: > 'Hate' is maybe too strong a word, but LD was very sensitive to atmosphere, and, as with Tito's Belgrade/Yugoslavia, he thoroughly disliked most of the Egyptian context. I haven't my notes to hand, but, as far as I can recall, his Egyptian notebook emphasises 'beggars... filth...' which finds its way into the AQ as an analogue: 'a thousand dust-tormented streets', and the many examples of squalor and even the 'purple passages' such as the camels being hacked to death - not a very endearing image for post-war Britain. He simply disliked most of the physical reality of the cities, and this can often lead one to dislike the people who are, to use a word he employed often, the 'affects' of that place. Except, of course, for the iconic characters who act out his story, e.g. 'Justine.. simply..IS'. > RP > > From: Bruce Redwine > To: gifford at fdu.edu; ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Cc: Bruce Redwine > Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 7:13 PM > Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Egypt > > As described in The Alexandria Quartet, Durrell's Egypt is essentially Alexandria and the Delta, both in terms of locale and history. The Romans called Alexandria Alexandrea ad Aegyptum, Alexandria by Egypt, not in Egypt. Which I also take as Durrell's attitude. I would limit Durrell's historical interest to the Ptolemaic, Roman, Christian, and modern periods (331-30 BC, 30 BC - 640 AD, 1805 - 1944 AD). That's pretty much the same ground E. M. Forster covers in his two books on Alexandria. Pretty much the same as C. P. Cavafy's historical framework. When I first read the Quartet, I was saddened that I had very little sense of Ancient Egypt, the Egypt of Dynasties One through Twenty-Six (roughly 3000 BC - 525 BC). Balthazar opens with a reference to the "Harpoon Men" (Narmer's Harpoon Kingdom and Dynasty "Zero"), but that's all that immediately comes to mind, besides some scattered references to gods and monuments. Nothing substantive and no trips into Upper Egypt. Even Cairo gets lightly treated. So, Durrell's Alexandrian home is Michael Haag's "cosmopolis." Read his Alexandria: City of Memory (2004) for a fine description and account of that great moment in time ? the city of Cavafy, Forster, and Durrell. It may be too strong to say Durrell hated the rest of Egypt. But I don't think he liked or admired it, and he did not find the richness of pharaonic culture as a useful source or inspiration. I also think he would have probably laughed at Martin Bernal's theory of "Black Athena," namely, the roots of Classical Greek Culture being in Egypt and Africa. > > > Bruce > > > > On Jul 8, 2011, at 11:58 AM, James Gifford wrote: > >> I see your point, Bruce, but couldn't one also note the four most famous >> books Durrell wrote and their locale? Is there a different way to >> articulate your argument that gets around that? After all, the AQ does >> teem with allusions to Ancient Egypt, though I'll certainly admit that >> there isn't the same kind of adoration one finds in his books about >> Greece. Still, "he hated Egypt" seems oversimplified to me -- I suspect >> something else is afoot. >> >> But my student advising files issue their siren call... Not tempting, >> that is, but certain to lead to doom. >> >> Best, >> James >> >> On 08/07/11 11:53 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >>> Durrell writes no travel books on Egypt and its ancient past. No pilgrimages to the Pyramids of Giza or the temples complexes of Thebes. No sitting on a broken column and musing about "the splendor that was Egypt" (Margaret Murray's title for her 1949 book). It's safe to say that LGD was not bitten by "Egyptomania." >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Bruce >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Jul 8, 2011, at 11:28 AM, James Gifford wrote: >> >>> >> >>> >>>> >>>>> As far as Durrell's attitude towards Egypt goes, >> >>> >>>> >>>>> ancient and modern, I'll rely upon what he himself >> >>> >>>> >>>>> complains about to Henry Miller in the letters. >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> There's praise in other places as well, so I wouldn't simplify it to a >> >>> >>>> single reaction he had to Egypt. There are always complicating >> >>> >>>> matters... That said, I don't think one could say he like the climate >> >>> >>>> or circumstances! >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >>>>> Is there any >> >>> >>>> >>>>> evidence that Durrell spent much time exploring >> >>> >>>> >>>>> this vast open-air museum? >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> There is, but it's not extensive. For that matter, there's good >> >>> >>>> evidence for Durrell's exploration of the "vast open-air museum" in >> >>> >>>> Greece as well, but likewise, not extensive, per se. My hunch is that >> >>> >>>> the circumstances contributed -- Egypt may have carried an air of >> >>> >>>> unreality during the war, but there were very significant threats, and >> >>> >>>> personal travel to the sites may not have been terribly convenient, >> >>> >>>> especially under the work pressures. That's a major difference from his >> >>> >>>> years in Greece. >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> In Stephanides' memoirs, he recounts visiting the Pyramids and the >> >>> >>>> Queen's Tombs escorted by George Andrew Reisner (via Durrell's >> >>> >>>> connection, not Stephanides'). >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> Now, back to administravia! >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> Cheers, >> >>> >>>> James > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20110709/5f5f7fad/attachment.html From dtart at bigpond.net.au Sat Jul 9 14:17:04 2011 From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 07:17:04 +1000 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Egypt In-Reply-To: References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net><4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com><917BBDBB-F5F8-4AE2-A9FD-1850297CC3F9@earthlink.net><4E175348.7090308@gmail.com><3AC7E7CA-5E1A-4239-9745-933FEE7C4BC1@earthlink.net><1310229845.8692.YahooMailNeo@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: History and memory are both dodgy. In LGD's context, I prefer Alexandria: city of imagination or Prospero's Cell: Island of invention. History, memory, symbolic universe, invention and fantasy all combine to make Durrell's fiction, or faction in some cases, the thing is it: magical and inspiring and yet, as someone on this list recent observed, he died without disciples or imitators of his style. Durrell has not become a genre, it seems...a once off ...or does he owe more to the past i.e. writers and ideas before his time than to the present (I am thinking of his reading matter here and of his admiration for people like Cavafy and Norman Douglas). Was Durrell a modern or, in fact, a magnificent throwback but an evolutionary dead end? is it Durrell's uniqueness that has given rise to his fans and indeed this list? 'Beloved Alexandra' is I think BS. Beloved Greece, yes - but don't tell that to the EU David From: Bruce Redwine Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 5:05 AM To: Richard Pine ; ilds at lists.uvic.ca Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's Egypt I agree. Durrell disliked Egypt. My question is, how did get to "beloved Alexandria!" My answer is memory, the power of Proustian memory. You'll also recall he wrote to Miller in August 1936 that he was slowly destroying memory. A contradiction? Bruce -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20110710/b0e1baa0/attachment.html From billyapt at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 14:29:43 2011 From: billyapt at gmail.com (William Apt) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 16:29:43 -0500 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Egypt In-Reply-To: References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net> <4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com> <917BBDBB-F5F8-4AE2-A9FD-1850297CC3F9@earthlink.net> <4E175348.7090308@gmail.com> <3AC7E7CA-5E1A-4239-9745-933FEE7C4BC1@earthlink.net> <1310229845.8692.YahooMailNeo@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If this this obvious or well known, please forgive me: I suggest that what LD liked about Egypt was that which had nothing to do with Egypt: it's European and, particularly, Greek element, both ancient and contemporary, the latter exemplified by Cavafy and the foreign community. We know LD hated the filth and squalor. But given his views on modern sexuality, I am certain he detested Islamic puritanism as well. "Apes in nightshirts" are the antithesis of his notion of the dynamic modern lover. WILLIAM APT Attorney at Law 7004 Bee Cave Rd, Bldg 1, Ste 205 Austin TX 78746 Office: 512/708-8300 Cell: 512/482-0036 Sent from my iPhone On Jul 9, 2011, at 2:05 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > I agree. Durrell disliked Egypt. My question is, how did get to "beloved Alexandria!" My answer is memory, the power of Proustian memory. You'll also recall he wrote to Miller in August 1936 that he was slowly destroying memory. A contradiction? > > > Bruce > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 9, 2011, at 9:44 AM, Richard Pine wrote: > >> 'Hate' is maybe too strong a word, but LD was very sensitive to atmosphere, and, as with Tito's Belgrade/Yugoslavia, he thoroughly disliked most of the Egyptian context. I haven't my notes to hand, but, as far as I can recall, his Egyptian notebook emphasises 'beggars... filth...' which finds its way into the AQ as an analogue: 'a thousand dust-tormented streets', and the many examples of squalor and even the 'purple passages' such as the camels being hacked to death - not a very endearing image for post-war Britain. He simply disliked most of the physical reality of the cities, and this can often lead one to dislike the people who are, to use a word he employed often, the 'affects' of that place. Except, of course, for the iconic characters who act out his story, e.g. 'Justine.. simply..IS'. >> RP >> >> From: Bruce Redwine >> To: gifford at fdu.edu; ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> Cc: Bruce Redwine >> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 7:13 PM >> Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Egypt >> >> As described in The Alexandria Quartet, Durrell's Egypt is essentially Alexandria and the Delta, both in terms of locale and history. The Romans called Alexandria Alexandrea ad Aegyptum, Alexandria by Egypt, not in Egypt. Which I also take as Durrell's attitude. I would limit Durrell's historical interest to the Ptolemaic, Roman, Christian, and modern periods (331-30 BC, 30 BC - 640 AD, 1805 - 1944 AD). That's pretty much the same ground E. M. Forster covers in his two books on Alexandria. Pretty much the same as C. P. Cavafy's historical framework. When I first read the Quartet, I was saddened that I had very little sense of Ancient Egypt, the Egypt of Dynasties One through Twenty-Six (roughly 3000 BC - 525 BC). Balthazar opens with a reference to the "Harpoon Men" (Narmer's Harpoon Kingdom and Dynasty "Zero"), but that's all that immediately comes to mind, besides some scattered references to gods and monuments. Nothing substantive and no trips into Upper Egypt. Even Cairo gets lightly treated. So, Durrell's Alexandrian home is Michael Haag's "cosmopolis." Read his Alexandria: City of Memory (2004) for a fine description and account of that great moment in time ? the city of Cavafy, Forster, and Durrell. It may be too strong to say Durrell hated the rest of Egypt. But I don't think he liked or admired it, and he did not find the richness of pharaonic culture as a useful source or inspiration. I also think he would have probably laughed at Martin Bernal's theory of "Black Athena," namely, the roots of Classical Greek Culture being in Egypt and Africa. >> >> >> Bruce >> >> >> >> On Jul 8, 2011, at 11:58 AM, James Gifford wrote: >> >>> I see your point, Bruce, but couldn't one also note the four most famous >>> books Durrell wrote and their locale? Is there a different way to >>> articulate your argument that gets around that? After all, the AQ does >>> teem with allusions to Ancient Egypt, though I'll certainly admit that >>> there isn't the same kind of adoration one finds in his books about >>> Greece. Still, "he hated Egypt" seems oversimplified to me -- I suspect >>> something else is afoot. >>> >>> But my student advising files issue their siren call... Not tempting, >>> that is, but certain to lead to doom. >>> >>> Best, >>> James >>> >>> On 08/07/11 11:53 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >>>> Durrell writes no travel books on Egypt and its ancient past. No pilgrimages to the Pyramids of Giza or the temples complexes of Thebes. No sitting on a broken column and musing about "the splendor that was Egypt" (Margaret Murray's title for her 1949 book). It's safe to say that LGD was not bitten by "Egyptomania." >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Bruce >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> On Jul 8, 2011, at 11:28 AM, James Gifford wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> As far as Durrell's attitude towards Egypt goes, >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ancient and modern, I'll rely upon what he himself >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> complains about to Henry Miller in the letters. >>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> There's praise in other places as well, so I wouldn't simplify it to a >>> >>>> >>>>> single reaction he had to Egypt. There are always complicating >>> >>>> >>>>> matters... That said, I don't think one could say he like the climate >>> >>>> >>>>> or circumstances! >>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Is there any >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> evidence that Durrell spent much time exploring >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> this vast open-air museum? >>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> There is, but it's not extensive. For that matter, there's good >>> >>>> >>>>> evidence for Durrell's exploration of the "vast open-air museum" in >>> >>>> >>>>> Greece as well, but likewise, not extensive, per se. My hunch is that >>> >>>> >>>>> the circumstances contributed -- Egypt may have carried an air of >>> >>>> >>>>> unreality during the war, but there were very significant threats, and >>> >>>> >>>>> personal travel to the sites may not have been terribly convenient, >>> >>>> >>>>> especially under the work pressures. That's a major difference from his >>> >>>> >>>>> years in Greece. >>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> In Stephanides' memoirs, he recounts visiting the Pyramids and the >>> >>>> >>>>> Queen's Tombs escorted by George Andrew Reisner (via Durrell's >>> >>>> >>>>> connection, not Stephanides'). >>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> Now, back to administravia! >>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>> >>>> >>>>> James >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20110709/5ce3444b/attachment.html From marc at marcpiel.fr Sat Jul 9 14:52:31 2011 From: marc at marcpiel.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2011 23:52:31 +0200 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Egypt In-Reply-To: <1310229845.8692.YahooMailNeo@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net> <4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com> <917BBDBB-F5F8-4AE2-A9FD-1850297CC3F9@earthlink.net> <4E175348.7090308@gmail.com> <3AC7E7CA-5E1A-4239-9745-933FEE7C4BC1@earthlink.net> <1310229845.8692.YahooMailNeo@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E18CD9F.1090302@marcpiel.fr> He was forced to leave Greece that he loved. He was obliged to live in Egypt. His mariage was on the rocks. He was loosing his daughter that he loved. He was obliged to write stuff that he knew was not true. It seemed the Germans would break through any time. There was a monsterous war going on, with no sight to an end. How many more obvious and relevant reasons can you list for LD a very sensitive human being not to like Egypt? Tonight I was alone, and had dinner in a restaurant, next to a loud German couple who didn't stop talking for one minute: that was enough to spoil my meal and evening. B.R. Marc > 'Hate' is maybe too strong a word, but LD was > very sensitive to atmosphere, and, as with > Tito's Belgrade/Yugoslavia, he thoroughly > disliked most of the Egyptian context. I haven't > my notes to hand, but, as far as I can recall, > his Egyptian notebook emphasises 'beggars... > filth...' which finds its way into the AQ as an > analogue: 'a thousand dust-tormented streets', > and the many examples of squalor and even the > 'purple passages' such as the camels being > hacked to death - not a very endearing image for > post-war Britain. He simply disliked most of the > physical reality of the cities, and this can > often lead one to dislike the people who are, to > use a word he employed often, the 'affects' of > that place. Except, of course, for the iconic > characters who act out his story, e.g. > 'Justine.. simply..IS'. > RP > > *From:* Bruce Redwine > *To:* gifford at fdu.edu; ilds at lists.uvic.ca > *Cc:* Bruce Redwine > *Sent:* Saturday, July 9, 2011 7:13 PM > *Subject:* [ilds] Durrell's Egypt > > As described in /The Alexandria Quartet,/ > Durrell's Egypt is essentially Alexandria and > the Delta, both in terms of locale and history. > The Romans called Alexandria /Alexandrea ad > Aegyptum,/ Alexandria /by/ Egypt, not /in/ > Egypt. Which I also take as Durrell's attitude. > I would limit Durrell's historical interest to > the Ptolemaic, Roman, Christian, and modern > periods (331-30 BC, 30 BC - 640 AD, 1805 - 1944 > AD). That's pretty much the same ground E. M. > Forster covers in his two books on Alexandria. > Pretty much the same as C. P. Cavafy's > historical framework. When I first read the > /Quartet,/ I was saddened that I had very little > sense of Ancient Egypt, the Egypt of Dynasties > One through Twenty-Six (roughly 3000 BC - 525 > BC). /Balthazar /opens with a reference to the > "Harpoon Men" (Narmer's Harpoon Kingdom and > Dynasty "Zero"), but that's all that immediately > comes to mind, besides some scattered references > to gods and monuments. Nothing substantive and > no trips into Upper Egypt. Even Cairo gets > lightly treated. So, Durrell's Alexandrian home > is Michael Haag's "cosmopolis." Read his > /Alexandria: City of Memory/ (2004) for a fine > description and account of that great moment in > time ? the city of Cavafy, Forster, and Durrell. > It may be too strong to say Durrell hated the > rest of Egypt. But I don't think he liked or > admired it, and he did not find the richness of > pharaonic culture as a useful source or > inspiration. I also think he would have > probably laughed at Martin Bernal's theory of > "Black Athena," namely, the roots of > Classical Greek Culture being in Egypt and Africa. > > > Bruce > > > > On Jul 8, 2011, at 11:58 AM, James Gifford wrote: > >> I see your point, Bruce, but couldn't one also >> note the four most famous >> books Durrell wrote and their locale? Is there >> a different way to >> articulate your argument that gets around that? >> After all, the AQ does >> teem with allusions to Ancient Egypt, though >> I'll certainly admit that >> there isn't the same kind of adoration one >> finds in his books about >> Greece. Still, "he hated Egypt" seems >> oversimplified to me -- I suspect >> something else is afoot. >> >> But my student advising files issue their siren >> call... Not tempting, >> that is, but certain to lead to doom. >> >> Best, >> James >> >> On 08/07/11 11:53 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >>> Durrell writes no travel books on Egypt and >>> its ancient past. No pilgrimages to the >>> Pyramids of Giza or the temples complexes of >>> Thebes. No sitting on a broken column and >>> musing about "the splendor that was Egypt" >>> (Margaret Murray's title for her 1949 book). >>> It's safe to say that LGD was not bitten by >>> "Egyptomania." >>> >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 8, 2011, at 11:28 AM, James Gifford wrote: >>> >>>>> As far as Durrell's attitude towards Egypt goes, >>>>> ancient and modern, I'll rely upon what he >>>>> himself >>>>> complains about to Henry Miller in the letters. >>>> >>>> There's praise in other places as well, so I >>>> wouldn't simplify it to a >>>> single reaction he had to Egypt. There are >>>> always complicating >>>> matters... That said, I don't think one >>>> could say he like the climate >>>> or circumstances! >>>> >>>>> Is there any >>>>> evidence that Durrell spent much time exploring >>>>> this vast open-air museum? >>>> >>>> There is, but it's not extensive. For that >>>> matter, there's good >>>> evidence for Durrell's exploration of the >>>> "vast open-air museum" in >>>> Greece as well, but likewise, not extensive, >>>> per se. My hunch is that >>>> the circumstances contributed -- Egypt may >>>> have carried an air of >>>> unreality during the war, but there were very >>>> significant threats, and >>>> personal travel to the sites may not have >>>> been terribly convenient, >>>> especially under the work pressures. That's >>>> a major difference from his >>>> years in Greece. >>>> >>>> In Stephanides' memoirs, he recounts visiting >>>> the Pyramids and the >>>> Queen's Tombs escorted by George Andrew >>>> Reisner (via Durrell's >>>> connection, not Stephanides'). >>>> >>>> Now, back to administravia! >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> James > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20110709/4d5cea3d/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sat Jul 9 15:47:03 2011 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 15:47:03 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Egypt In-Reply-To: References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net><4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com><917BBDBB-F5F8-4AE2-A9FD-1850297CC3F9@earthlink.net><4E175348.7090308@gmail.com><3AC7E7CA-5E1A-4239-9745-933FEE7C4BC1@earthlink.net><1310229845.8692.YahooMailNeo@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: David, is "beloved Alexandria!" bullshit? The ironists on this list may agree with you. If it is BS, then it's a most convincing variety, and a whole lot of people got duped. Me self included. I was most shocked when I read LD's letters to HM. I tend to think, given the power of Durrell's evocation of the city, that he had to have duped himself. Otherwise, I don't see how he could carry it off. Memory will do that, and I see nothing wrong with that. Bruce On Jul 9, 2011, at 2:17 PM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote: > History and memory are both dodgy. In LGD's context, I prefer Alexandria: city of imagination or Prospero's Cell: Island of invention. History, memory, symbolic universe, invention and fantasy all combine to make Durrell's fiction, or faction in some cases, the thing is it: magical and inspiring and yet, as someone on this list recent observed, he died without disciples or imitators of his style. Durrell has not become a genre, it seems...a once off ...or does he owe more to the past i.e. writers and ideas before his time than to the present (I am thinking of his reading matter here and of his admiration for people like Cavafy and Norman Douglas). Was Durrell a modern or, in fact, a magnificent throwback but an evolutionary dead end? is it Durrell's uniqueness that has given rise to his fans and indeed this list? > > 'Beloved Alexandra' is I think BS. Beloved Greece, yes - but don't tell that to the EU > > David > > From: Bruce Redwine > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 5:05 AM > To: Richard Pine ; ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's Egypt > > I agree. Durrell disliked Egypt. My question is, how did get to "beloved Alexandria!" My answer is memory, the power of Proustian memory. You'll also recall he wrote to Miller in August 1936 that he was slowly destroying memory. A contradiction? > > > Bruce -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20110709/4684cf03/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sat Jul 9 20:00:04 2011 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 20:00:04 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Egypt In-Reply-To: References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net> <4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com> <917BBDBB-F5F8-4AE2-A9FD-1850297CC3F9@earthlink.net> <4E175348.7090308@gmail.com> <3AC7E7CA-5E1A-4239-9745-933FEE7C4BC1@earthlink.net> <1310229845.8692.YahooMailNeo@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <178F329F-5D13-4709-99B4-D1FDD516A212@earthlink.net> No, this is worth noting and remembering. It is also what made the Egyptians at the Durrell Celebration, Alexandria, 2007, extremely angry. Basically, they accused Durrell of being a racist and strenuously objected to the depiction of their Islamic countrymen in the Quartet. Durrell doesn't provide many favorable portraits of Egyptians who aren't of European, Coptic, or Jewish heritage. Off hand, I can't think of any. One-eyed Hamid? Colonel Neguib, future revolutionary, who gets his name dropped, once? Not many indeed. Of course, authors don't have to be equal-opportunity employers when it comes to writing, and Harry Tzalas, a Greek and an Alexandrian, made this point at the Conference in slightly different terms. Bruce On Jul 9, 2011, at 2:29 PM, William Apt wrote: > If this this obvious or well known, please forgive me: > > I suggest that what LD liked about Egypt was that which had nothing to do with Egypt: it's European and, particularly, Greek element, both ancient and contemporary, the latter exemplified by Cavafy and the foreign community. We know LD hated the filth and squalor. But given his views on modern sexuality, I am certain he detested Islamic puritanism as well. "Apes in nightshirts" are the antithesis of his notion of the dynamic modern lover. > > WILLIAM APT > Attorney at Law > 7004 Bee Cave Rd, Bldg 1, > Ste 205 > Austin TX 78746 > Office: 512/708-8300 > Cell: 512/482-0036 > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 9, 2011, at 2:05 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > >> I agree. Durrell disliked Egypt. My question is, how did get to "beloved Alexandria!" My answer is memory, the power of Proustian memory. You'll also recall he wrote to Miller in August 1936 that he was slowly destroying memory. A contradiction? >> >> >> Bruce >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jul 9, 2011, at 9:44 AM, Richard Pine wrote: >> >>> 'Hate' is maybe too strong a word, but LD was very sensitive to atmosphere, and, as with Tito's Belgrade/Yugoslavia, he thoroughly disliked most of the Egyptian context. I haven't my notes to hand, but, as far as I can recall, his Egyptian notebook emphasises 'beggars... filth...' which finds its way into the AQ as an analogue: 'a thousand dust-tormented streets', and the many examples of squalor and even the 'purple passages' such as the camels being hacked to death - not a very endearing image for post-war Britain. He simply disliked most of the physical reality of the cities, and this can often lead one to dislike the people who are, to use a word he employed often, the 'affects' of that place. Except, of course, for the iconic characters who act out his story, e.g. 'Justine.. simply..IS'. >>> RP >>> >>> From: Bruce Redwine >>> To: gifford at fdu.edu; ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>> Cc: Bruce Redwine >>> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 7:13 PM >>> Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Egypt >>> >>> As described in The Alexandria Quartet, Durrell's Egypt is essentially Alexandria and the Delta, both in terms of locale and history. The Romans called Alexandria Alexandrea ad Aegyptum, Alexandria by Egypt, not in Egypt. Which I also take as Durrell's attitude. I would limit Durrell's historical interest to the Ptolemaic, Roman, Christian, and modern periods (331-30 BC, 30 BC - 640 AD, 1805 - 1944 AD). That's pretty much the same ground E. M. Forster covers in his two books on Alexandria. Pretty much the same as C. P. Cavafy's historical framework. When I first read the Quartet, I was saddened that I had very little sense of Ancient Egypt, the Egypt of Dynasties One through Twenty-Six (roughly 3000 BC - 525 BC). Balthazar opens with a reference to the "Harpoon Men" (Narmer's Harpoon Kingdom and Dynasty "Zero"), but that's all that immediately comes to mind, besides some scattered references to gods and monuments. Nothing substantive and no trips into Upper Egypt. Even Cairo gets lightly treated. So, Durrell's Alexandrian home is Michael Haag's "cosmopolis." Read his Alexandria: City of Memory (2004) for a fine description and account of that great moment in time ? the city of Cavafy, Forster, and Durrell. It may be too strong to say Durrell hated the rest of Egypt. But I don't think he liked or admired it, and he did not find the richness of pharaonic culture as a useful source or inspiration. I also think he would have probably laughed at Martin Bernal's theory of "Black Athena," namely, the roots of Classical Greek Culture being in Egypt and Africa. >>> >>> >>> Bruce >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20110709/028b83b3/attachment.html From marc at marcpiel.fr Sun Jul 10 01:21:51 2011 From: marc at marcpiel.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 10:21:51 +0200 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Egypt In-Reply-To: References: <512329789.310850.1310068554496.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><1310141019.41411.YahooMailNeo@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><52419BB7-C38C-4929-A9E8-4014434DEFC4@earthlink.net><4E174C66.7020401@gmail.com><917BBDBB-F5F8-4AE2-A9FD-1850297CC3F9@earthlink.net><4E175348.7090308@gmail.com><3AC7E7CA-5E1A-4239-9745-933FEE7C4BC1@earthlink.net><1310229845.8692.YahooMailNeo@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E19611F.402@marcpiel.fr> I wouldn't put too much faith in tyhe letters between M and LD. It started with almost idolatry and evolved with LD becoming known as a writer. Neither showed a true picture, but an evolutionary state: in both cases LD was probably either under the influence of or trying to influence. B.R. Marc Le 10/07/11 00:47, Bruce Redwine a ?crit : > David, is "beloved Alexandria!" bullshit? The > ironists on this list may agree with you. If it > is BS, then it's a most convincing variety, and > a whole lot of people got duped. Me self > included. I was most shocked when I read LD's > letters to HM. I tend to think, given the > power of Durrell's evocation of the city, that > he had to have duped himself. Otherwise, I > don't see how he could carry it off. Memory > will do that, and I see nothing wrong with that. > > > Bruce > > > On Jul 9, 2011, at 2:17 PM, Denise Tart & David > Green wrote: > >> History and memory are both dodgy. In LGD's >> context, I prefer /Alexandria: city of >> imagination/ or /Prospero's Cell: Island of >> invention./ History, memory, symbolic >> universe, invention and fantasy all combine to >> make Durrell's fiction, or faction in some >> cases, the thing is it: magical and inspiring >> and yet, as someone on this list recent >> observed, he died without disciples or >> imitators of his style. Durrell has not become >> a genre, it seems...a once off ...or does he >> owe more to the past i.e. writers and ideas >> before his time than to the present (I am >> thinking of his reading matter here and of his >> admiration for people like Cavafy and Norman >> Douglas). Was Durrell a modern or, in fact, a >> magnificent throwback but an evolutionary dead >> end? is it Durrell's uniqueness that has given >> rise to his fans and indeed this list? >> 'Beloved Alexandra' is I think BS. Beloved >> Greece, yes - but don't tell that to the EU >> David >> >> *From:* Bruce Redwine >> >> *Sent:* Sunday, July 10, 2011 5:05 AM >> *To:* Richard Pine >> ; >> ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> *Subject:* Re: [ilds] Durrell's Egypt >> >> I agree. Durrell disliked Egypt. My question >> is, how did get to "beloved Alexandria!" My >> answer is memory, the power of Proustian >> memory. You'll also recall he wrote to Miller >> in August 1936 that he was slowly destroying >> memory. A contradiction? >> >> >> Bruce > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20110710/a791700d/attachment.html