From Smithchamberlin at aol.com  Mon Oct 25 08:02:53 2010
From: Smithchamberlin at aol.com (Smithchamberlin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 11:02:53 EDT
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
Message-ID: <7e774.536f3911.39f6f61d@aol.com>

It's Welles.
    Brewster
 
 
In a message dated 10/24/2010 3:01:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca writes:

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Today's Topics:

1. Durrell on UTube  (Denise Tart & David  Green)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message:  1
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 10:55:17 +1100
From: "Denise Tart & David  Green" <dtart at bigpond.net.au>
Subject: [ilds] Durrell on UTube
To:  "Durrel" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Message-ID:  <DFE9FD91DF744B4B9D7273B86ABA69D8 at DenisePC>
Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"

Colleaugues,

while U Tubing interviews and  images of Orson Wells (yes, teaching Citizen 
Kane) I tried Lawrence Durrell  and found only Mr Bryant reading his poem 
about about our grubby alcoholic  hero and some black and white pics from 
Justine. Is there any footage out  there in cyberspace appertaining to the man: 
interviews, readings etc????  Would to see them if they exist.

Orson Wells, what a bloke - and what a  gut!!!! quelle maleur!

David



16 William  Street
Marrickville NSW 2204
AUSTRALIA
+ 61 2 9564 6`65
0412 707  625
www.denisetart.com.au
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End  of ILDS Digest, Vol 43, Issue  8
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 25 08:54:51 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 08:54:51 -0700
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
In-Reply-To: <7e774.536f3911.39f6f61d@aol.com>
References: <7e774.536f3911.39f6f61d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <548E7CC7-51EE-428D-B952-FA1B58C5740B@earthlink.net>

Yes, it's "Welles," but I doubt if Orson would have bothered to correct.  Like LD, he never made it to the university.


BR



On Oct 25, 2010, at 8:02 AM, Smithchamberlin at aol.com wrote:

> It's Welles.
>     Brewster
>  
> In a message dated 10/24/2010 3:01:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca writes:
> Send ILDS mailing list submissions to
>     ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>     https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>     ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>     ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Durrell on UTube (Denise Tart & David Green)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 10:55:17 +1100
> From: "Denise Tart & David Green" <dtart at bigpond.net.au>
> Subject: [ilds] Durrell on UTube
> To: "Durrel" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Message-ID: <DFE9FD91DF744B4B9D7273B86ABA69D8 at DenisePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Colleaugues,
> 
> while U Tubing interviews and images of Orson Wells (yes, teaching Citizen Kane) I tried Lawrence Durrell and found only Mr Bryant reading his poem about about our grubby alcoholic hero and some black and white pics from Justine. Is there any footage out there in cyberspace appertaining to the man: interviews, readings etc???? Would to see them if they exist.
> 
> Orson Wells, what a bloke - and what a gut!!!! quelle maleur!
> 
> David
> 
> 
> 
> 16 William Street
> Marrickville NSW 2204
> AUSTRALIA
> + 61 2 9564 6`65
> 0412 707 625
> www.denisetart.com.au
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> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 
> End of ILDS Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
> ***********************************
> _______________________________________________
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> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 25 10:15:37 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:15:37 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
Message-ID: <B20268C6-C42B-4E2A-B6AA-C86E508B0A34@earthlink.net>

I just returned from a trip to Italy, which included five days in Venice.  My first visit to la Serenissima.  Here are some notes, in a Durrellian context.  I'm interested in the way Durrell's imagination works and how its responds to reality.


Early morning walk to Piazza San Marco.  Clear day.  Everything sharply defined.  Note the difference in depictions of Venice.  The 18th century paintings of the city have blue skies, towering white cumulous clouds, and green lagoon.  True to light and eye.  Contrast this genre with Turner?s (1830s), Whistler?s (1870s-80s), and Sargent?s (1900s) paintings of a misty, watery atmosphere, the city dissolving in a haze.  Turner must have started this way of seeing the city.

Luchino Visconti opens his film version of Death in Venice (1971) with this crepuscular view, enhanced by Mahler?s background music.  (This is Visconti's interpretation of Thomas Mann, who does not describe Venice in this manner.)  Lawrence Durrell, at the beginning of Bitter Lemons (1957), verbalizes this 19th century trend:  ?These thoughts belong to Venice at dawn, seen from the deck of the ship which is to carry me through the islands to Cyprus; a Venice wobbling in a thousand fresh-water reflections, cool as jelly.  It was as if some great master, stricken by dementia, had burst his whole colour-box against the sky to deafen the inner eye of the world.  Cloud and water mixed into each other, dripping with colours, merging, overlapping, liquefying, with steeples and balconies and roofs floating in space, like the fragments of some stained-glass window seen through a dozen veils of rice-paper.  Fragments of history touched with the colours of wine, tar, ochre, blood, fire-opal and ripening grain.  The whole at the same time being rinsed softly back at the edges into a dawn sky as softly as circumspectly blue as a pigeon?s egg? (p. 15).

This is Venice at dawn?  Where the sun rises behind Durrell?s ship, and the city must be in shadow?  A beautiful description, but I doubt the city looks like this at sunrise.  Durrell?s Venice derives from his ?inner eye of the world,? that is, his imagination, which seems greatly indebted to ?fragments of history,? namely, the visual tradition of Turner, Sargent, and Whistler.

Note Durrell's mixed metaphors:  ?great master,? a painter, who is demented, who colors the sky, who also ?deafens? the ?inner eye.?  You might say this is intentional:  mixing the senses of sight and hearing to achieve a literary effect equivalent to Turner?s watercolors.  Possibly.  But I wonder if this is just sloppy thinking and writing.  Many such instances in Durrell?s oeuvre.



Bruce
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From billyapt at gmail.com  Mon Oct 25 10:27:29 2010
From: billyapt at gmail.com (William Apt)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 12:27:29 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
In-Reply-To: <B20268C6-C42B-4E2A-B6AA-C86E508B0A34@earthlink.net>
References: <B20268C6-C42B-4E2A-B6AA-C86E508B0A34@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin1HJ=kdq1A1p2QJkyp+xDJ+2SO4++jv_K+U1de@mail.gmail.com>

Bruce:

If the sun is rising on the ship that carries him to Cyprus, it rises at the
front, not the back, of the ship; and the light cast would illumine the
city, not put it in shadow.  Right?

BILLY

On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Bruce Redwine
<bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>wrote:

> I just returned from a trip to Italy, which included five days in Venice.
>  My first visit to *la Serenissima.  *Here are some notes, in a Durrellian
> context.  I'm interested in the way Durrell's imagination works and how its
> responds to reality.
>
>
>  Early morning walk to Piazza San Marco.  Clear day.  Everything sharply
> defined.  Note the difference in depictions of Venice.  The 18th century
> paintings of the city have blue skies, towering white cumulous clouds, and
> green lagoon.  True to light and eye.  Contrast this genre with Turner?s
> (1830s), Whistler?s (1870s-80s), and Sargent?s (1900s) paintings of a misty,
> watery atmosphere, the city dissolving in a haze.  Turner must have started
> this way of seeing the city.
>
> Luchino Visconti opens his film version of *Death in Venice* (1971) with
> this crepuscular view, enhanced by Mahler?s background music.  (This is
> Visconti's interpretation of Thomas Mann, who does not describe Venice in
> this manner.)  Lawrence Durrell, at the beginning of *Bitter Lemons *(1957),
> verbalizes this 19th century trend:  ?These thoughts belong to Venice at
> dawn, seen from the deck of the ship which is to carry me through the
> islands to Cyprus; a Venice wobbling in a thousand fresh-water reflections,
> cool as jelly.  It was as if some great master, stricken by dementia, had
> burst his whole colour-box against the sky to deafen the inner eye of the
> world.  Cloud and water mixed into each other, dripping with colours,
> merging, overlapping, liquefying, with steeples and balconies and roofs
> floating in space, like the fragments of some stained-glass window seen
> through a dozen veils of rice-paper.  Fragments of history touched with the
> colours of wine, tar, ochre, blood, fire-opal and ripening grain.  The whole
> at the same time being rinsed softly back at the edges into a dawn sky as
> softly as circumspectly blue as a pigeon?s egg? (p. 15).
>
> This is Venice at dawn?  Where the sun rises behind Durrell?s ship, and the
> city must be in shadow?  A beautiful description, but I doubt the city looks
> like this at sunrise.  Durrell?s Venice derives from his ?inner eye of the
> world,? that is, his imagination, which seems greatly indebted to ?fragments
> of history,? namely, the visual tradition of Turner, Sargent, and Whistler.
>
> Note Durrell's mixed metaphors:  ?great master,? a painter, who is
> demented, who colors the sky, who also ?deafens? the ?inner eye.?  You might
> say this is intentional:  mixing the senses of sight and hearing to achieve
> a literary effect equivalent to Turner?s watercolors.  Possibly.  But I
> wonder if this is just sloppy thinking and writing.  Many such instances in
> Durrell?s oeuvre.
>
>
>
> Bruce
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>


-- 
WILLIAM APT
Attorney at Law
7004 Bee Cave Rd, Bldg 1,
Ste 205
Austin TX 78746
512/708-8300
512/708-8011 FAX
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From gkoger at mindspring.com  Mon Oct 25 11:38:55 2010
From: gkoger at mindspring.com (gkoger at mindspring.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 12:38:55 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
Message-ID: <26557327.1288031936903.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Mon Oct 25 12:38:00 2010
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 06:38:00 +1100
Subject: [ilds] U Tube Durrell
Message-ID: <EAFD2EDDC7524D31A3C184FB45F23C06@DenisePC>

Paul,

Thanks for the links. Mon Dieu! LD spoke French like a native - if only I did, the footage would have made more sense but good to see him as sage and expert and as information officer. I wonder if there is a connection between Orson Welles (b 1915) and Lawrence Durrell (b 1912). I wonder if they met in Europe at some time. it seems to me they had much in common - as Bruce has suggested. Please note that I inserted the second e in Welles. Being on this list can be very like being in front of a class; you know you are going to be corrected.

Regarding Bruce's report from Venice, my own memories of the city in April 1985 were of clear, cool brightness with a faint, very faint bluish haze at times. The description from Bitter Lemons, to my mind Durrell's finest book, may have been inspired by a painting or paintings - why not?

David Green (without an extra e; not of Irish descent)


16 William Street
Marrickville NSW 2204
AUSTRALIA
+ 61 2 9564 6`65
0412 707 625
www.denisetart.com.au
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 25 12:49:58 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 12:49:58 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin1HJ=kdq1A1p2QJkyp+xDJ+2SO4++jv_K+U1de@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B20268C6-C42B-4E2A-B6AA-C86E508B0A34@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTin1HJ=kdq1A1p2QJkyp+xDJ+2SO4++jv_K+U1de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DFACDA14-4338-4A4A-AC34-027E984C5B55@earthlink.net>

Billy,

Where is Durrell standing on a ship "at dawn," as he looks out at Venice?  Probably on the stern or the port side, assuming he's still in the lagoon in front of San Marco.  That's the classic view.  In any event, faint sunlight is at Durrell's back.  "Dawn" means the light before sunrise.  It's by definition shadowy, indistinct.  So, the city would have still been in shadows, and I don't see how it could have been illuminated enough for him to see "a thousand fresh-water reflections."  He's imagining all that ? "seeing things," if you will, with Turner's "demented" eye.  All of which is perfectly legitimate for someone who is a poet and invents his own reality.  That's why I read him.


Bruce



On Oct 25, 2010, at 10:27 AM, William Apt wrote:

> Bruce:
>  
> If the sun is rising on the ship that carries him to Cyprus, it rises at the front, not the back, of the ship; and the light cast would illumine the city, not put it in shadow.  Right?
>  
> BILLY  
> 
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> I just returned from a trip to Italy, which included five days in Venice.  My first visit to la Serenissima.  Here are some notes, in a Durrellian context.  I'm interested in the way Durrell's imagination works and how its responds to reality.
> 
> 
> Early morning walk to Piazza San Marco.  Clear day.  Everything sharply defined.  Note the difference in depictions of Venice.  The 18th century paintings of the city have blue skies, towering white cumulous clouds, and green lagoon.  True to light and eye.  Contrast this genre with Turner?s (1830s), Whistler?s (1870s-80s), and Sargent?s (1900s) paintings of a misty, watery atmosphere, the city dissolving in a haze.  Turner must have started this way of seeing the city.
> 
> Luchino Visconti opens his film version of Death in Venice (1971) with this crepuscular view, enhanced by Mahler?s background music.  (This is Visconti's interpretation of Thomas Mann, who does not describe Venice in this manner.)  Lawrence Durrell, at the beginning of Bitter Lemons (1957), verbalizes this 19th century trend:  ?These thoughts belong to Venice at dawn, seen from the deck of the ship which is to carry me through the islands to Cyprus; a Venice wobbling in a thousand fresh-water reflections, cool as jelly.  It was as if some great master, stricken by dementia, had burst his whole colour-box against the sky to deafen the inner eye of the world.  Cloud and water mixed into each other, dripping with colours, merging, overlapping, liquefying, with steeples and balconies and roofs floating in space, like the fragments of some stained-glass window seen through a dozen veils of rice-paper.  Fragments of history touched with the colours of wine, tar, ochre, blood, fire-opal and ripening grain.  The whole at the same time being rinsed softly back at the edges into a dawn sky as softly as circumspectly blue as a pigeon?s egg? (p. 15).
> 
> This is Venice at dawn?  Where the sun rises behind Durrell?s ship, and the city must be in shadow?  A beautiful description, but I doubt the city looks like this at sunrise.  Durrell?s Venice derives from his ?inner eye of the world,? that is, his imagination, which seems greatly indebted to ?fragments of history,? namely, the visual tradition of Turner, Sargent, and Whistler.
> 
> Note Durrell's mixed metaphors:  ?great master,? a painter, who is demented, who colors the sky, who also ?deafens? the ?inner eye.?  You might say this is intentional:  mixing the senses of sight and hearing to achieve a literary effect equivalent to Turner?s watercolors.  Possibly.  But I wonder if this is just sloppy thinking and writing.  Many such instances in Durrell?s oeuvre.
> 
> 
> 
> Bruce
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> WILLIAM APT
> Attorney at Law
> 7004 Bee Cave Rd, Bldg 1,
> Ste 205
> Austin TX 78746
> 512/708-8300
> 512/708-8011 FAX
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

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From durrell at telstra.com  Mon Oct 25 12:33:53 2010
From: durrell at telstra.com (BIGPOND ACCOUNT)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 06:33:53 +1100
Subject: [ilds] Durrell on UTube
In-Reply-To: <DFE9FD91DF744B4B9D7273B86ABA69D8@DenisePC>
References: <DFE9FD91DF744B4B9D7273B86ABA69D8@DenisePC>
Message-ID: <1FE2E761-B5D1-4F59-80E2-0A748B1A4B06@telstra.com>

Gmorn David... I also regularly check the YouTube reservoir for  
snippets of LD in action but alas no matches... Perhaps you could be  
more persuasive and ask the group to post some footage of LD... Let  
them know that the best YouTube video of LD posted in the next three  
months ( as judged by the ADS) will win a case of selected Australian  
wines shipped to their door anywhere on this tiny greenish blue  
globe... There must be hundreds of hours of audiovisual footage of LD  
floating around and Youtube is a great medium to share such amusing  
sights... Please keep on pushing the idls on this point David as I'm a  
YouTube junkie and need a Larry D hit soon!!! .... The HSC is at the  
half-way mark and I'm looking forward to spilling some redwine on the  
art gallery walls soon... DrD



On 24/10/2010, at 10:55, "Denise Tart & David Green" <dtart at bigpond.net.au 
 > wrote:

> Colleaugues,
>
> while U Tubing interviews and images of Orson Wells (yes, teaching  
> Citizen Kane) I tried Lawrence Durrell and found only Mr Bryant  
> reading his poem about about our grubby alcoholic hero and some  
> black and white pics from Justine. Is there any footage out there in  
> cyberspace appertaining to the man: interviews, readings etc????  
> Would to see them if they exist.
>
> Orson Wells, what a bloke - and what a gut!!!! quelle maleur!
>
> David
>
>
>
> 16 William Street
> Marrickville NSW 2204
> AUSTRALIA
> + 61 2 9564 6`65
> 0412 707 625
> www.denisetart.com.au
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Mon Oct 25 14:22:45 2010
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:22:45 +0200
Subject: [ilds] U Tube Durrell
In-Reply-To: <EAFD2EDDC7524D31A3C184FB45F23C06@DenisePC>
References: <EAFD2EDDC7524D31A3C184FB45F23C06@DenisePC>
Message-ID: <4CC5F525.5020107@interdesign.fr>

David,
Let me assure you that LD didn't speek like a 
frenchman, but like an englishman who had 
integrated french life (with a pommy accent- that 
probably you wouldn't recognise). Please don't 
take this as agressive. It is just honest.
Marc

Le 25/10/10 21:38, Denise Tart & David Green a ?crit :
> Paul,
> Thanks for the links. Mon Dieu! LD spoke French like a native - if only
> I did, the footage would have made more sense but good to see him as
> sage and expert and as information officer. I wonder if there is a
> connection between Orson Welles (b 1915) and Lawrence Durrell (b 1912).
> I wonder if they met in Europe at some time. it seems to me they had
> much in common - as Bruce has suggested. Please note that I inserted the
> second e in Welles. Being on this list can be very like being in front
> of a class; you know you are going to be corrected.
> Regarding Bruce's report from Venice, my own memories of the city in
> April 1985 were of clear, cool brightness with a faint, very faint
> bluish haze at times. The description from Bitter Lemons, to my mind
> Durrell's finest book, may have been inspired by a painting or paintings
> - why not?
> David Green (without an extra e; not of Irish descent)
> 16 William Street
> Marrickville NSW 2204
> AUSTRALIA
> + 61 2 9564 6`65
> 0412 707 625
> www.denisetart.com.au <http://www.denisetart.com.au>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Mon Oct 25 14:30:55 2010
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:30:55 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
In-Reply-To: <B20268C6-C42B-4E2A-B6AA-C86E508B0A34@earthlink.net>
References: <B20268C6-C42B-4E2A-B6AA-C86E508B0A34@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4CC5F70F.3030902@interdesign.fr>

Bruce,
I was in Venice 3 years ago in September.
Believe me, despite the beauty of the setting, the 
appreciation was completely ruined by the masses 
of tourists (mostly from Asia and Japan) that made 
it almost impossible to walk accross the Plaza 
Saint Marco and look at the light at the same 
time, whatever the time of day.
I do not question what LD could have said in his 
time, but today it is impossible to reconcile his 
writing with a recent experience.
I first went to Venice in the 1960's - then it 
would have been possible.
Please where does you text on Venice by LD come from?
B.R. Marc

Le 25/10/10 19:15, Bruce Redwine a ?crit :
> I just returned from a trip to Italy, which included five days in
> Venice. My first visit to /la Serenissima. /Here are some notes, in a
> Durrellian context. I'm interested in the way Durrell's imagination
> works and how its responds to reality.
>
>
> Early morning walk to Piazza San Marco. Clear day. Everything sharply
> defined. Note the difference in depictions of Venice. The 18th century
> paintings of the city have blue skies, towering white cumulous clouds,
> and green lagoon. True to light and eye. Contrast this genre with
> Turner?s (1830s), Whistler?s (1870s-80s), and Sargent?s (1900s)
> paintings of a misty, watery atmosphere, the city dissolving in a haze.
> Turner must have started this way of seeing the city.
>
> Luchino Visconti opens his film version of /Death in Venice/ (1971) with
> this crepuscular view, enhanced by Mahler?s background music. (This is
> Visconti's interpretation of Thomas Mann, who does not describe Venice
> in this manner.) Lawrence Durrell, at the beginning of /Bitter Lemons
> /(1957), verbalizes this 19th century trend: ?These thoughts belong to
> Venice at dawn, seen from the deck of the ship which is to carry me
> through the islands to Cyprus; a Venice wobbling in a thousand
> fresh-water reflections, cool as jelly. It was as if some great master,
> stricken by dementia, had burst his whole colour-box against the sky to
> deafen the inner eye of the world. Cloud and water mixed into each
> other, dripping with colours, merging, overlapping, liquefying, with
> steeples and balconies and roofs floating in space, like the fragments
> of some stained-glass window seen through a dozen veils of rice-paper.
> Fragments of history touched with the colours of wine, tar, ochre,
> blood, fire-opal and ripening grain. The whole at the same time being
> rinsed softly back at the edges into a dawn sky as softly as
> circumspectly blue as a pigeon?s egg? (p. 15).
>
> This is Venice at dawn? Where the sun rises behind Durrell?s ship, and
> the city must be in shadow? A beautiful description, but I doubt the
> city looks like this at sunrise. Durrell?s Venice derives from his
> ?inner eye of the world,? that is, his imagination, which seems greatly
> indebted to ?fragments of history,? namely, the visual tradition of
> Turner, Sargent, and Whistler.
>
> Note Durrell's mixed metaphors: ?great master,? a painter, who is
> demented, who colors the sky, who also ?deafens? the ?inner eye.? You
> might say this is intentional: mixing the senses of sight and hearing to
> achieve a literary effect equivalent to Turner?s watercolors. Possibly.
> But I wonder if this is just sloppy thinking and writing. Many such
> instances in Durrell?s oeuvre.
>
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From wilded at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 25 14:33:38 2010
From: wilded at hotmail.com (david wilde)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:33:38 -0600
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
In-Reply-To: <548E7CC7-51EE-428D-B952-FA1B58C5740B@earthlink.net>
References: <7e774.536f3911.39f6f61d@aol.com>,
	<548E7CC7-51EE-428D-B952-FA1B58C5740B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY134-W237BE34174B7E0AB39541ED8410@phx.gbl>


Bruce.  You mean to say that snobby universities are not for the likes of celebra/eties who prefer their own private language to the uniform standardised versions?  How snotty of them.  David Wilde

From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 08:54:51 -0700
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
CC: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8


Yes, it's "Welles," but I doubt if Orson would have bothered to correct.  Like LD, he never made it to the university.




BR







On Oct 25, 2010, at 8:02 AM, Smithchamberlin at aol.com wrote:


It's Welles.
    Brewster
 

In a message dated 10/24/2010 3:01:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca writes:
Send ILDS mailing list submissions to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:

   1. Durrell on UTube (Denise Tart & David Green)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 10:55:17 +1100
From: "Denise Tart & David Green" <dtart at bigpond.net.au>
Subject: [ilds] Durrell on UTube
To: "Durrel" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Message-ID: <DFE9FD91DF744B4B9D7273B86ABA69D8 at DenisePC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Colleaugues,

while U Tubing interviews and images of Orson Wells (yes, teaching Citizen Kane) I tried Lawrence Durrell and found only Mr Bryant reading his poem about about our grubby alcoholic hero and some black and white pics from Justine. Is there any footage out there in cyberspace appertaining to the man: interviews, readings etc???? Would to see them if they exist.

Orson Wells, what a bloke - and what a gut!!!! quelle maleur!

David



16 William Street
Marrickville NSW 2204
AUSTRALIA
+ 61 2 9564 6`65
0412 707 625
www.denisetart.com.au
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End of ILDS Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
***********************************
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From wilded at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 25 14:38:01 2010
From: wilded at hotmail.com (david wilde)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:38:01 -0600
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
In-Reply-To: <B20268C6-C42B-4E2A-B6AA-C86E508B0A34@earthlink.net>
References: <B20268C6-C42B-4E2A-B6AA-C86E508B0A34@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY134-W10D6488760F164CF5D5874D8410@phx.gbl>


How about indifference?   d

From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:15:37 -0700
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
CC: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice


I just returned from a trip to Italy, which included five days in Venice.  My first visit to la Serenissima.  Here are some notes, in a Durrellian context.  I'm interested in the way Durrell's imagination works and how its responds to reality.





Early morning walk to Piazza San Marco.  Clear day.  Everything sharply defined.  Note the difference in depictions of Venice.  The 18th century paintings of the city have blue skies, towering white cumulous clouds, and green lagoon.  True to light and eye.  Contrast this genre with Turner?s (1830s), Whistler?s (1870s-80s), and Sargent?s (1900s) paintings of a misty, watery atmosphere, the city dissolving in a haze.  Turner must have started this way of seeing the city.


Luchino Visconti opens his film version of Death in Venice (1971) with this crepuscular view, enhanced by Mahler?s background music.  (This is Visconti's interpretation of Thomas Mann, who does not describe Venice in this manner.)  Lawrence Durrell, at the beginning of Bitter Lemons (1957), verbalizes this 19th century trend:  ?These thoughts belong to Venice at dawn, seen from the deck of the ship which is to carry me through the islands to Cyprus; a Venice wobbling in a thousand fresh-water reflections, cool as jelly.  It was as if some great master, stricken by dementia, had burst his whole colour-box against the sky to deafen the inner eye of the world.  Cloud and water mixed into each other, dripping with colours, merging, overlapping, liquefying, with steeples and balconies and roofs floating in space, like the fragments of some stained-glass window seen through a dozen veils of rice-paper.  Fragments of history touched with the colours of wine, tar, ochre, blood, fire-opal and ripening grain.  The whole at the same time being rinsed softly back at the edges into a dawn sky as softly as circumspectly blue as a pigeon?s egg? (p. 15).


This is Venice at dawn?  Where the sun rises behind Durrell?s ship, and the city must be in shadow?  A beautiful description, but I doubt the city looks like this at sunrise.  Durrell?s Venice derives from his ?inner eye of the world,? that is, his imagination, which seems greatly indebted to ?fragments of history,? namely, the visual tradition of Turner, Sargent, and Whistler.


Note Durrell's mixed metaphors:  ?great master,? a painter, who is demented, who colors the sky, who also ?deafens? the ?inner eye.?  You might say this is intentional:  mixing the senses of sight and hearing to achieve a literary effect equivalent to Turner?s watercolors.  Possibly.  But I wonder if this is just sloppy thinking and writing.  Many such instances in Durrell?s oeuvre.






Bruce
_______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds 		 	   		  
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From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Mon Oct 25 15:03:44 2010
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 00:03:44 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Durrell on UTube
In-Reply-To: <1FE2E761-B5D1-4F59-80E2-0A748B1A4B06@telstra.com>
References: <DFE9FD91DF744B4B9D7273B86ABA69D8@DenisePC>
	<1FE2E761-B5D1-4F59-80E2-0A748B1A4B06@telstra.com>
Message-ID: <4CC5FEC0.4040705@interdesign.fr>

What agreat idea.
Think I could find some links in exchange for a 
case of selected Australian wines.
Sinc?re salutations,
Marc Piel

Le 25/10/10 21:33, BIGPOND ACCOUNT a ?crit :
> Gmorn David... I also regularly check the YouTube reservoir for snippets
> of LD in action but alas no matches... Perhaps you could be more
> persuasive and ask the group to post some footage of LD... Let them know
> that the best YouTube video of LD posted in the next three months ( as
> judged by the ADS) will win a case of selected Australian wines shipped
> to their door anywhere on this tiny greenish blue globe... There must be
> hundreds of hours of audiovisual footage of LD floating around and
> Youtube is a great medium to share such amusing sights... Please keep on
> pushing the idls on this point David as I'm a YouTube junkie and need a
> Larry D hit soon!!! .... The HSC is at the half-way mark and I'm looking
> forward to spilling some redwine on the art gallery walls soon... DrD
>
>
>
> On 24/10/2010, at 10:55, "Denise Tart & David Green"
> <dtart at bigpond.net.au <mailto:dtart at bigpond.net.au>> wrote:
>
>> Colleaugues,
>> while U Tubing interviews and images of Orson Wells (yes, teaching
>> Citizen Kane) I tried Lawrence Durrell and found only Mr Bryant
>> reading his poem about about our grubby alcoholic hero and some black
>> and white pics from Justine. Is there any footage out there in
>> cyberspace appertaining to the man: interviews, readings etc???? Would
>> to see them if they exist.
>> Orson Wells, what a bloke - and what a gut!!!! quelle maleur!
>> David
>> 16 William Street
>> Marrickville NSW 2204
>> AUSTRALIA
>> + 61 2 9564 6`65
>> 0412 707 625
>> <http://www.denisetart.com.au>www.denisetart.com.au
>> <http://www.denisetart.com.au>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ILDS at lists.uvic.ca>
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Mon Oct 25 15:05:05 2010
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 00:05:05 +0200
Subject: [ilds] U Tube Durrell
In-Reply-To: <EAFD2EDDC7524D31A3C184FB45F23C06@DenisePC>
References: <EAFD2EDDC7524D31A3C184FB45F23C06@DenisePC>
Message-ID: <4CC5FF11.7020903@interdesign.fr>

Speak!

David,
Let me assure you that LD didn't speak like a 
frenchman, but like an englishman who had 
integrated french life (with a pommy accent- that 
probably you wouldn't recognise). Please don't 
take this as agressive. It is just honest.
Marc

Le 25/10/10 21:38, Denise Tart & David Green a ?crit :
> Paul,
> Thanks for the links. Mon Dieu! LD spoke French like a native - if only
> I did, the footage would have made more sense but good to see him as
> sage and expert and as information officer. I wonder if there is a
> connection between Orson Welles (b 1915) and Lawrence Durrell (b 1912).
> I wonder if they met in Europe at some time. it seems to me they had
> much in common - as Bruce has suggested. Please note that I inserted the
> second e in Welles. Being on this list can be very like being in front
> of a class; you know you are going to be corrected.
> Regarding Bruce's report from Venice, my own memories of the city in
> April 1985 were of clear, cool brightness with a faint, very faint
> bluish haze at times. The description from Bitter Lemons, to my mind
> Durrell's finest book, may have been inspired by a painting or paintings
> - why not?
> David Green (without an extra e; not of Irish descent)
> 16 William Street
> Marrickville NSW 2204
> AUSTRALIA
> + 61 2 9564 6`65
> 0412 707 625
> www.denisetart.com.au <http://www.denisetart.com.au>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds




From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 25 15:45:12 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:45:12 -0700
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
In-Reply-To: <BAY134-W237BE34174B7E0AB39541ED8410@phx.gbl>
References: <7e774.536f3911.39f6f61d@aol.com>,
	<548E7CC7-51EE-428D-B952-FA1B58C5740B@earthlink.net>
	<BAY134-W237BE34174B7E0AB39541ED8410@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <00411A9E-5262-4CD4-9086-C68ACCCB6084@earthlink.net>

Not sure what you mean, but I mean that, in my experience, some of the biggest nitpickers hold PHDs (Gary Snyder's preferred abbreviation).

BR


On Oct 25, 2010, at 2:33 PM, david wilde wrote:

> Bruce.  You mean to say that snobby universities are not for the likes of celebra/eties who prefer their own private language to the uniform standardised versions?  How snotty of them.  David Wilde
> From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 08:54:51 -0700
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> CC: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
> Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
> 
> Yes, it's "Welles," but I doubt if Orson would have bothered to correct.  Like LD, he never made it to the university.
> 
> 
> BR
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 25, 2010, at 8:02 AM, Smithchamberlin at aol.com wrote:
> 
> It's Welles.
>     Brewster
>  
> In a message dated 10/24/2010 3:01:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca writes:
> Send ILDS mailing list submissions to
>     ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>     https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>     ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>     ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Durrell on UTube (Denise Tart & David Green)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 10:55:17 +1100
> From: "Denise Tart & David Green" <dtart at bigpond.net.au>
> Subject: [ilds] Durrell on UTube
> To: "Durrel" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Message-ID: <DFE9FD91DF744B4B9D7273B86ABA69D8 at DenisePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Colleaugues,
> 
> while U Tubing interviews and images of Orson Wells (yes, teaching Citizen Kane) I tried Lawrence Durrell and found only Mr Bryant reading his poem about about our grubby alcoholic hero and some black and white pics from Justine. Is there any footage out there in cyberspace appertaining to the man: interviews, readings etc???? Would to see them if they exist.
> 
> Orson Wells, what a bloke - and what a gut!!!! quelle maleur!
> 
> David
> 
> 
> 
> 16 William Street
> Marrickville NSW 2204
> AUSTRALIA
> + 61 2 9564 6`65
> 0412 707 625
> www.denisetart.com.au
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
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> 
> 
> End of ILDS Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
> ***********************************
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> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds_______________________________________________
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From james.d.gifford at gmail.com  Mon Oct 25 15:47:15 2010
From: james.d.gifford at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:47:15 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
In-Reply-To: <26557327.1288031936903.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <26557327.1288031936903.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4CC608F3.3060409@gmail.com>

If LD's Venice was good enough to satisfy Jan Morris' tastes, then it's 
fine with me...  Too much realism deadens the poetry and leads to social 
activism rather than art.

Vancouver for William Gibson: "The Sky above the port was the color of 
television, tuned to a dead channel."  I wouldn't say that in a June 
afternoon, but today it seems apt.  If I ever write about Vancouver, 
which is unlikely, I'd probably be shameless about conforming the city 
to my imagination rather than its own temporary reality.

Best,
J

On 25/10/10 11:38 AM, gkoger at mindspring.com wrote:
> Bruce,
>
> Having been to Venice several times and in different seasons, I can
> vouch for the fact that at times it looks brighter than a Canaletto and
> at other times hazier than a Turner. Although I don't doubt that other
> considerations played into the way 19th-century artists portrayed the
> city, it might be an interesting experiment to check the seaons and
> weather conditions in which they visited. A good project? Or has someone
> done it already?
>
> According to Brewster Chamberlin's Chonology, Durrell departed Venice in
> January, a time in which "through a dozen veils of rice-paper" might --
> I stress might -- be an apt description.
>
> Another consideration is the route that Durrell's ship might have taken.
> Would it have headed southward around La Giudecca before turning to make
> the passage around the northern point of Lido before turning south again
> down the Adriatic? If so, any number of angles of vision might have been
> possible during the morning. Again I don't know the answers, but it's
> interesting to speculate.
>
> Grove
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Bruce Redwine
>     Sent: Oct 25, 2010 1:15 PM
>     To: Durrell list
>     Cc: Bruce Redwine
>     Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
>
>     I just returned from a trip to Italy, which included five days in
>     Venice. My first visit to /la Serenissima. /Here are some notes, in
>     a Durrellian context. I'm interested in the way Durrell's
>     imagination works and how its responds to reality.
>
>
>     Early morning walk to Piazza San Marco. Clear day. Everything
>     sharply defined. Note the difference in depictions of Venice. The
>     18th century paintings of the city have blue skies, towering white
>     cumulous clouds, and green lagoon. True to light and eye. Contrast
>     this genre with Turner?s (1830s), Whistler?s (1870s-80s), and
>     Sargent?s (1900s) paintings of a misty, watery atmosphere, the city
>     dissolving in a haze. Turner must have started this way of seeing
>     the city.
>
>     Luchino Visconti opens his film version of /Death in Venice/ (1971)
>     with this crepuscular view, enhanced by Mahler?s background music.
>     (This is Visconti's interpretation of Thomas Mann, who does not
>     describe Venice in this manner.) Lawrence Durrell, at the beginning
>     of /Bitter Lemons /(1957), verbalizes this 19th century trend:
>     ?These thoughts belong to Venice at dawn, seen from the deck of the
>     ship which is to carry me through the islands to Cyprus; a Venice
>     wobbling in a thousand fresh-water reflections, cool as jelly. It
>     was as if some great master, stricken by dementia, had burst his
>     whole colour-box against the sky to deafen the inner eye of the
>     world. Cloud and water mixed into each other, dripping with colours,
>     merging, overlapping, liquefying, with steeples and balconies and
>     roofs floating in space, like the fragments of some stained-glass
>     window seen through a dozen veils of rice-paper. Fragments of
>     history touched with the colours of wine, tar, ochre, blood,
>     fire-opal and ripening grain. The whole at the same time being
>     rinsed softly back at the edges into a dawn sky as softly as
>     circumspectly blue as a pigeon?s egg? (p. 15).
>
>     This is Venice at dawn? Where the sun rises behind Durrell?s ship,
>     and the city must be in shadow? A beautiful description, but I doubt
>     the city looks like this at sunrise. Durrell?s Venice derives from
>     his ?inner eye of the world,? that is, his imagination, which seems
>     greatly indebted to ?fragments of history,? namely, the visual
>     tradition of Turner, Sargent, and Whistler.
>
>     Note Durrell's mixed metaphors: ?great master,? a painter, who is
>     demented, who colors the sky, who also ?deafens? the ?inner eye.?
>     You might say this is intentional: mixing the senses of sight and
>     hearing to achieve a literary effect equivalent to Turner?s
>     watercolors. Possibly. But I wonder if this is just sloppy thinking
>     and writing. Many such instances in Durrell?s oeuvre.
>
>
>
>     Bruce
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 25 15:57:22 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:57:22 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
In-Reply-To: <4CC5F70F.3030902@interdesign.fr>
References: <B20268C6-C42B-4E2A-B6AA-C86E508B0A34@earthlink.net>
	<4CC5F70F.3030902@interdesign.fr>
Message-ID: <EB65DF04-8039-45C1-BE1A-C3E421046E11@earthlink.net>

Marc,

Yes, too many tourists, myself included, and this was during the "off season," if such a thing exists.  Despite all that, the city and her lagoon are clean, bright, and pristine.  She's still very beautiful.  The Italians, by the way, are wonderful.  Durrell's text:  Bitter Lemons, New York:  Dutton, 1957, 1960, p. 15.


Bruce


On Oct 25, 2010, at 2:30 PM, Marc Piel wrote:

> Bruce,
> I was in Venice 3 years ago in September.
> Believe me, despite the beauty of the setting, the 
> appreciation was completely ruined by the masses 
> of tourists (mostly from Asia and Japan) that made 
> it almost impossible to walk accross the Plaza 
> Saint Marco and look at the light at the same 
> time, whatever the time of day.
> I do not question what LD could have said in his 
> time, but today it is impossible to reconcile his 
> writing with a recent experience.
> I first went to Venice in the 1960's - then it 
> would have been possible.
> Please where does you text on Venice by LD come from?
> B.R. Marc
> 
> Le 25/10/10 19:15, Bruce Redwine a ?crit :
>> I just returned from a trip to Italy, which included five days in
>> Venice. My first visit to /la Serenissima. /Here are some notes, in a
>> Durrellian context. I'm interested in the way Durrell's imagination
>> works and how its responds to reality.
>> 
>> 
>> Early morning walk to Piazza San Marco. Clear day. Everything sharply
>> defined. Note the difference in depictions of Venice. The 18th century
>> paintings of the city have blue skies, towering white cumulous clouds,
>> and green lagoon. True to light and eye. Contrast this genre with
>> Turner?s (1830s), Whistler?s (1870s-80s), and Sargent?s (1900s)
>> paintings of a misty, watery atmosphere, the city dissolving in a haze.
>> Turner must have started this way of seeing the city.
>> 
>> Luchino Visconti opens his film version of /Death in Venice/ (1971) with
>> this crepuscular view, enhanced by Mahler?s background music. (This is
>> Visconti's interpretation of Thomas Mann, who does not describe Venice
>> in this manner.) Lawrence Durrell, at the beginning of /Bitter Lemons
>> /(1957), verbalizes this 19th century trend: ?These thoughts belong to
>> Venice at dawn, seen from the deck of the ship which is to carry me
>> through the islands to Cyprus; a Venice wobbling in a thousand
>> fresh-water reflections, cool as jelly. It was as if some great master,
>> stricken by dementia, had burst his whole colour-box against the sky to
>> deafen the inner eye of the world. Cloud and water mixed into each
>> other, dripping with colours, merging, overlapping, liquefying, with
>> steeples and balconies and roofs floating in space, like the fragments
>> of some stained-glass window seen through a dozen veils of rice-paper.
>> Fragments of history touched with the colours of wine, tar, ochre,
>> blood, fire-opal and ripening grain. The whole at the same time being
>> rinsed softly back at the edges into a dawn sky as softly as
>> circumspectly blue as a pigeon?s egg? (p. 15).
>> 
>> This is Venice at dawn? Where the sun rises behind Durrell?s ship, and
>> the city must be in shadow? A beautiful description, but I doubt the
>> city looks like this at sunrise. Durrell?s Venice derives from his
>> ?inner eye of the world,? that is, his imagination, which seems greatly
>> indebted to ?fragments of history,? namely, the visual tradition of
>> Turner, Sargent, and Whistler.
>> 
>> Note Durrell's mixed metaphors: ?great master,? a painter, who is
>> demented, who colors the sky, who also ?deafens? the ?inner eye.? You
>> might say this is intentional: mixing the senses of sight and hearing to
>> achieve a literary effect equivalent to Turner?s watercolors. Possibly.
>> But I wonder if this is just sloppy thinking and writing. Many such
>> instances in Durrell?s oeuvre.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> 

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 25 16:30:33 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:30:33 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Welles and Durrell
In-Reply-To: <EAFD2EDDC7524D31A3C184FB45F23C06@DenisePC>
References: <EAFD2EDDC7524D31A3C184FB45F23C06@DenisePC>
Message-ID: <36A0032B-611F-43E8-874A-0E43E0DECF65@earthlink.net>

David,

Very interesting idea ? the comparison between Welles and Durrell.  I don't think they ever met, but I see similarities in their art.  Have you seen Welles's Othello?  The film is mostly mood and cinematography.  Shakespeare's magnificent language is irrelevant.  As one film critic noted, Welles's Othello doesn't speak ? he's photographed.  The great temptation scene between Iago and the Moor is lost as the two walk the battlements overlooking the Mediterranean, and the roar of crashing waves drowns out the dialogue.  I see Durrell doing something similar when poetry trumps thought.


Bruce



On Oct 25, 2010, at 12:38 PM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote:

> Paul,
>  
> Thanks for the links. Mon Dieu! LD spoke French like a native - if only I did, the footage would have made more sense but good to see him as sage and expert and as information officer. I wonder if there is a connection between Orson Welles (b 1915) and Lawrence Durrell (b 1912). I wonder if they met in Europe at some time. it seems to me they had much in common - as Bruce has suggested. Please note that I inserted the second e in Welles. Being on this list can be very like being in front of a class; you know you are going to be corrected.
>  
> Regarding Bruce's report from Venice, my own memories of the city in April 1985 were of clear, cool brightness with a faint, very faint bluish haze at times. The description from Bitter Lemons, to my mind Durrell's finest book, may have been inspired by a painting or paintings - why not?
>  
> David Green (without an extra e; not of Irish descent)
>  
>  
> 16 William Street
> Marrickville NSW 2204
> AUSTRALIA
> + 61 2 9564 6`65
> 0412 707 625
> www.denisetart.com.au
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

-------------- next part --------------
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From james.d.gifford at gmail.com  Mon Oct 25 17:25:34 2010
From: james.d.gifford at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 17:25:34 -0700
Subject: [ilds] nitpicking
In-Reply-To: <00411A9E-5262-4CD4-9086-C68ACCCB6084@earthlink.net>
References: <7e774.536f3911.39f6f61d@aol.com>,
	<548E7CC7-51EE-428D-B952-FA1B58C5740B@earthlink.net>	<BAY134-W237BE34174B7E0AB39541ED8410@phx.gbl>
	<00411A9E-5262-4CD4-9086-C68ACCCB6084@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4CC61FFE.50204@gmail.com>

> I mean that, in my experience, some of the
> biggest nitpickers hold PHDs (Gary Snyder's
> preferred abbreviation).

Ah, my eucharistic friend, I believe you have an aphoristic kettle and 
pot, both slightly charred, and are banging 'em together...  I'd 
certainly not call anyone on the list a snob, but I think there's a good 
deal of nitpicking to spread around on this list.

As for Snyder, who I regard as a very fine poet, let's not forget (I'm 
nitpicking now) that he dropped out of grad school and has been on the 
inside of academia for a very long time.  Anyone can be a nitpicker -- a 
PhD simply means you have a clear methodology for nitpicking, amongst 
the other things academics do either well or poorly!

Cheers,
James

On 25/10/10 3:45 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:

>
> BR
>
>
> On Oct 25, 2010, at 2:33 PM, david wilde wrote:
>
>> Bruce. You mean to say that snobby universities are not for the likes
>> of celebra/eties who prefer their own private language to the uniform
>> standardised versions? How snotty of them. David Wilde
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 08:54:51 -0700
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>> CC: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
>>
>> Yes, it's "Welles," but I doubt if Orson would have bothered to
>> correct. Like LD, he never made it to the university.
>>
>>
>> BR
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 25, 2010, at 8:02 AM, Smithchamberlin at aol.com
>> <mailto:Smithchamberlin at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>     It's Welles.
>>     Brewster
>>     In a message dated 10/24/2010 3:01:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>     ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> writes:
>>
>>         Send ILDS mailing list submissions to
>>         ilds at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>
>>         To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>         https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>         or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>         ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca>
>>
>>         You can reach the person managing the list at
>>         ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca>
>>
>>         When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
>>         specific
>>         than "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..."
>>
>>
>>         Today's Topics:
>>
>>         1. Durrell on UTube (Denise Tart & David Green)
>>
>>
>>         ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>         Message: 1
>>         Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 10:55:17 +1100
>>         From: "Denise Tart & David Green" <dtart at bigpond.net.au
>>         <mailto:dtart at bigpond.net.au>>
>>         Subject: [ilds] Durrell on UTube
>>         To: "Durrel" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>>
>>         Message-ID: <DFE9FD91DF744B4B9D7273B86ABA69D8 at DenisePC>
>>         Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>>         Colleaugues,
>>
>>         while U Tubing interviews and images of Orson Wells (yes,
>>         teaching Citizen Kane) I tried Lawrence Durrell and found only
>>         Mr Bryant reading his poem about about our grubby alcoholic
>>         hero and some black and white pics from Justine. Is there any
>>         footage out there in cyberspace appertaining to the man:
>>         interviews, readings etc???? Would to see them if they exist.
>>
>>         Orson Wells, what a bloke - and what a gut!!!! quelle maleur!
>>
>>         David
>>
>>
>>
>>         16 William Street
>>         Marrickville NSW 2204
>>         AUSTRALIA
>>         + 61 2 9564 6`65
>>         0412 707 625
>>         www.denisetart.com.au <http://www.denisetart.com.au/>
>>         -------------- next part --------------
>>         An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>         URL:
>>         http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20101024/386c222e/attachment-0001.html
>>
>>
>>         ------------------------------
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         ILDS mailing list
>>         ILDS at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ILDS at lists.uvic.ca>
>>         https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>>         End of ILDS Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
>>         ***********************************
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     ILDS mailing list
>>     ILDS at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ILDS at lists.uvic.ca>
>>     https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ILDS at lists.uvic.ca>
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds_______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ILDS at lists.uvic.ca>
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 25 17:33:51 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 17:33:51 -0700
Subject: [ilds] nitpicking
In-Reply-To: <4CC61FFE.50204@gmail.com>
References: <7e774.536f3911.39f6f61d@aol.com>,
	<548E7CC7-51EE-428D-B952-FA1B58C5740B@earthlink.net>	<BAY134-W237BE34174B7E0AB39541ED8410@phx.gbl>
	<00411A9E-5262-4CD4-9086-C68ACCCB6084@earthlink.net>
	<4CC61FFE.50204@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AC7240B3-7711-4026-B6F5-5F8BE5AB8AD9@earthlink.net>

Yes, and I hear you.


BR



On Oct 25, 2010, at 5:25 PM, James Gifford wrote:

>> I mean that, in my experience, some of the
>> biggest nitpickers hold PHDs (Gary Snyder's
>> preferred abbreviation).
> 
> Ah, my eucharistic friend, I believe you have an aphoristic kettle and 
> pot, both slightly charred, and are banging 'em together...  I'd 
> certainly not call anyone on the list a snob, but I think there's a good 
> deal of nitpicking to spread around on this list.
> 
> As for Snyder, who I regard as a very fine poet, let's not forget (I'm 
> nitpicking now) that he dropped out of grad school and has been on the 
> inside of academia for a very long time.  Anyone can be a nitpicker -- a 
> PhD simply means you have a clear methodology for nitpicking, amongst 
> the other things academics do either well or poorly!
> 
> Cheers,
> James
> 
> On 25/10/10 3:45 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
> 
>> 
>> BR
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 25, 2010, at 2:33 PM, david wilde wrote:
>> 
>>> Bruce. You mean to say that snobby universities are not for the likes
>>> of celebra/eties who prefer their own private language to the uniform
>>> standardised versions? How snotty of them. David Wilde
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 08:54:51 -0700
>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>> CC: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
>>> 
>>> Yes, it's "Welles," but I doubt if Orson would have bothered to
>>> correct. Like LD, he never made it to the university.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> BR
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 25, 2010, at 8:02 AM, Smithchamberlin at aol.com
>>> <mailto:Smithchamberlin at aol.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>    It's Welles.
>>>    Brewster
>>>    In a message dated 10/24/2010 3:01:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>>    ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> writes:
>>> 
>>>        Send ILDS mailing list submissions to
>>>        ilds at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>> 
>>>        To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>        https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>        or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>        ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca>
>>> 
>>>        You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>        ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca>
>>> 
>>>        When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
>>>        specific
>>>        than "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..."
>>> 
>>> 
>>>        Today's Topics:
>>> 
>>>        1. Durrell on UTube (Denise Tart & David Green)
>>> 
>>> 
>>>        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>>        Message: 1
>>>        Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 10:55:17 +1100
>>>        From: "Denise Tart & David Green" <dtart at bigpond.net.au
>>>        <mailto:dtart at bigpond.net.au>>
>>>        Subject: [ilds] Durrell on UTube
>>>        To: "Durrel" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>>
>>>        Message-ID: <DFE9FD91DF744B4B9D7273B86ABA69D8 at DenisePC>
>>>        Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>> 
>>>        Colleaugues,
>>> 
>>>        while U Tubing interviews and images of Orson Wells (yes,
>>>        teaching Citizen Kane) I tried Lawrence Durrell and found only
>>>        Mr Bryant reading his poem about about our grubby alcoholic
>>>        hero and some black and white pics from Justine. Is there any
>>>        footage out there in cyberspace appertaining to the man:
>>>        interviews, readings etc???? Would to see them if they exist.
>>> 
>>>        Orson Wells, what a bloke - and what a gut!!!! quelle maleur!
>>> 
>>>        David
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>        16 William Street
>>>        Marrickville NSW 2204
>>>        AUSTRALIA
>>>        + 61 2 9564 6`65
>>>        0412 707 625
>>>        www.denisetart.com.au <http://www.denisetart.com.au/>
>>>        -------------- next part --------------
>>>        An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>        URL:
>>>        http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20101024/386c222e/attachment-0001.html
>>> 
>>> 



From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Mon Oct 25 17:57:57 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 20:57:57 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Gary Snyder
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D04419C@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

Just a note from one of your nit-picking snobs. 

Gary was a poet in res here some many years ago, and he lived in my house with his family. He signed all of my Snyder books, and told me a story. I asked him if he received enlightenment while walking in the Himalayas. He drew breath and said:

One day when I was walking in the mountains, I saw a Buddhist monk walking toward me purposefully, as if he knew who I was. He increased his speed, and as he drew near, he threw open his robe -- and displayed many coins attached to the inside.

"Buy Tibetan coin?" he asked.

Om shanti nimosti om


W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of James Gifford [james.d.gifford at gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 8:25 PM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Subject: [ilds] nitpicking

> I mean that, in my experience, some of the
> biggest nitpickers hold PHDs (Gary Snyder's
> preferred abbreviation).

Ah, my eucharistic friend, I believe you have an aphoristic kettle and
pot, both slightly charred, and are banging 'em together...  I'd
certainly not call anyone on the list a snob, but I think there's a good
deal of nitpicking to spread around on this list.

As for Snyder, who I regard as a very fine poet, let's not forget (I'm
nitpicking now) that he dropped out of grad school and has been on the
inside of academia for a very long time.  Anyone can be a nitpicker -- a
PhD simply means you have a clear methodology for nitpicking, amongst
the other things academics do either well or poorly!

Cheers,
James

On 25/10/10 3:45 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:

>
> BR
>
>
> On Oct 25, 2010, at 2:33 PM, david wilde wrote:
>
>> Bruce. You mean to say that snobby universities are not for the likes
>> of celebra/eties who prefer their own private language to the uniform
>> standardised versions? How snotty of them. David Wilde
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 08:54:51 -0700
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>> CC: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
>>
>> Yes, it's "Welles," but I doubt if Orson would have bothered to
>> correct. Like LD, he never made it to the university.
>>
>>
>> BR
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 25, 2010, at 8:02 AM, Smithchamberlin at aol.com
>> <mailto:Smithchamberlin at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>     It's Welles.
>>     Brewster
>>     In a message dated 10/24/2010 3:01:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>     ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> writes:
>>
>>         Send ILDS mailing list submissions to
>>         ilds at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>
>>         To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>         https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>         or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>         ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca>
>>
>>         You can reach the person managing the list at
>>         ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca>
>>
>>         When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
>>         specific
>>         than "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..."
>>
>>
>>         Today's Topics:
>>
>>         1. Durrell on UTube (Denise Tart & David Green)
>>
>>
>>         ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>         Message: 1
>>         Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 10:55:17 +1100
>>         From: "Denise Tart & David Green" <dtart at bigpond.net.au
>>         <mailto:dtart at bigpond.net.au>>
>>         Subject: [ilds] Durrell on UTube
>>         To: "Durrel" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>>
>>         Message-ID: <DFE9FD91DF744B4B9D7273B86ABA69D8 at DenisePC>
>>         Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>>         Colleaugues,
>>
>>         while U Tubing interviews and images of Orson Wells (yes,
>>         teaching Citizen Kane) I tried Lawrence Durrell and found only
>>         Mr Bryant reading his poem about about our grubby alcoholic
>>         hero and some black and white pics from Justine. Is there any
>>         footage out there in cyberspace appertaining to the man:
>>         interviews, readings etc???? Would to see them if they exist.
>>
>>         Orson Wells, what a bloke - and what a gut!!!! quelle maleur!
>>
>>         David
>>
>>
>>
>>         16 William Street
>>         Marrickville NSW 2204
>>         AUSTRALIA
>>         + 61 2 9564 6`65
>>         0412 707 625
>>         www.denisetart.com.au <http://www.denisetart.com.au/>
>>         -------------- next part --------------
>>         An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>         URL:
>>         http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20101024/386c222e/attachment-0001.html
>>
>>
>>         ------------------------------
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         ILDS mailing list
>>         ILDS at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ILDS at lists.uvic.ca>
>>         https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>>         End of ILDS Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
>>         ***********************************
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     ILDS mailing list
>>     ILDS at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ILDS at lists.uvic.ca>
>>     https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ILDS at lists.uvic.ca>
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds_______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ILDS at lists.uvic.ca>
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 25 18:37:46 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:37:46 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Gary Snyder
In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D04419C@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D04419C@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <3C23B5D7-A3B3-4BBD-BD98-15092E55117E@earthlink.net>

Bill,

Did you correct Snyder's English re the correct abbreviation for Doctor of Philosophy?


Bruce



On Oct 25, 2010, at 5:57 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:

> Just a note from one of your nit-picking snobs. 
> 
> Gary was a poet in res here some many years ago, and he lived in my house with his family. He signed all of my Snyder books, and told me a story. I asked him if he received enlightenment while walking in the Himalayas. He drew breath and said:
> 
> One day when I was walking in the mountains, I saw a Buddhist monk walking toward me purposefully, as if he knew who I was. He increased his speed, and as he drew near, he threw open his robe -- and displayed many coins attached to the inside.
> 
> "Buy Tibetan coin?" he asked.
> 
> Om shanti nimosti om
> 
> 
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English    *           *
> University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
> OH 45221-0069 *  *
> ________________________________________
> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of James Gifford [james.d.gifford at gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 8:25 PM
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Subject: [ilds] nitpicking
> 
>> I mean that, in my experience, some of the
>> biggest nitpickers hold PHDs (Gary Snyder's
>> preferred abbreviation).
> 
> Ah, my eucharistic friend, I believe you have an aphoristic kettle and
> pot, both slightly charred, and are banging 'em together...  I'd
> certainly not call anyone on the list a snob, but I think there's a good
> deal of nitpicking to spread around on this list.
> 
> As for Snyder, who I regard as a very fine poet, let's not forget (I'm
> nitpicking now) that he dropped out of grad school and has been on the
> inside of academia for a very long time.  Anyone can be a nitpicker -- a
> PhD simply means you have a clear methodology for nitpicking, amongst
> the other things academics do either well or poorly!
> 
> Cheers,
> James
> 
> On 25/10/10 3:45 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
> 
>> 
>> BR
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 25, 2010, at 2:33 PM, david wilde wrote:
>> 
>>> Bruce. You mean to say that snobby universities are not for the likes
>>> of celebra/eties who prefer their own private language to the uniform
>>> standardised versions? How snotty of them. David Wilde
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 08:54:51 -0700
>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>> CC: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
>>> 
>>> Yes, it's "Welles," but I doubt if Orson would have bothered to
>>> correct. Like LD, he never made it to the university.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> BR
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 25, 2010, at 8:02 AM, Smithchamberlin at aol.com
>>> <mailto:Smithchamberlin at aol.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>    It's Welles.
>>>    Brewster
>>>    In a message dated 10/24/2010 3:01:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>>    ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> writes:
>>> 
>>>        Send ILDS mailing list submissions to
>>>        ilds at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>> 
>>>        To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>        https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>        or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>        ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca>
>>> 
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>>>        ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca>
>>> 
>>>        When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
>>>        specific
>>>        than "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..."
>>> 
>>> 
>>>        Today's Topics:
>>> 
>>>        1. Durrell on UTube (Denise Tart & David Green)
>>> 
>>> 
>>>        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>>        Message: 1
>>>        Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 10:55:17 +1100
>>>        From: "Denise Tart & David Green" <dtart at bigpond.net.au
>>>        <mailto:dtart at bigpond.net.au>>
>>>        Subject: [ilds] Durrell on UTube
>>>        To: "Durrel" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>>
>>>        Message-ID: <DFE9FD91DF744B4B9D7273B86ABA69D8 at DenisePC>
>>>        Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>> 
>>>        Colleaugues,
>>> 
>>>        while U Tubing interviews and images of Orson Wells (yes,
>>>        teaching Citizen Kane) I tried Lawrence Durrell and found only
>>>        Mr Bryant reading his poem about about our grubby alcoholic
>>>        hero and some black and white pics from Justine. Is there any
>>>        footage out there in cyberspace appertaining to the man:
>>>        interviews, readings etc???? Would to see them if they exist.
>>> 
>>>        Orson Wells, what a bloke - and what a gut!!!! quelle maleur!
>>> 
>>>        David
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>        16 William Street
>>>        Marrickville NSW 2204
>>>        AUSTRALIA
>>>        + 61 2 9564 6`65
>>>        0412 707 625
>>>        www.denisetart.com.au <http://www.denisetart.com.au/>
>>>        -------------- next part --------------
>>>   


From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Tue Oct 26 03:13:35 2010
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 21:13:35 +1100
Subject: [ilds] U Tube Durrell
In-Reply-To: <4CC5FF11.7020903@interdesign.fr>
References: <EAFD2EDDC7524D31A3C184FB45F23C06@DenisePC>
	<4CC5FF11.7020903@interdesign.fr>
Message-ID: <9574ED71FA024B238DA3B11CD7A22599@DenisePC>

David,
 Let me assure you that LD didn't speak like a
 Frenchman, but like an Englishman who had
 integrated French life (with a pommy accent- that
 probably you wouldn't recognise).

Marc, you are the Frenchman. I take you on your word. He sounded very 
convincing to to me - but then I speak English with an Australian accent 
(one of several) quelle horreur! so I'm no judge of the finer points of 
French, no matter who speaks it. In Paris they spoke fast, in Provence 
slowly.. that's about all I know

Speaking of YouTube, perhaps I can ask the group to post some footage of LD. 
The best YouTube video of LD posted in the next three months could win a 
case of selected Australian wines shipped to their door anywhere on this 
tiny greenish blue globe. There must be hundreds of hours of audiovisual 
footage of LD floating around and Youtube is a great medium to share such 
amusing sights.  I've become a YouTube junkie and need a Larry D hit soon!!! 
In the meantime Orson Welles continues to inspire, especially his drunk out 
takes on French Champagne.

David Chardonnay 


From billyapt at gmail.com  Tue Oct 26 08:26:54 2010
From: billyapt at gmail.com (William Apt)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:26:54 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
In-Reply-To: <DFACDA14-4338-4A4A-AC34-027E984C5B55@earthlink.net>
References: <B20268C6-C42B-4E2A-B6AA-C86E508B0A34@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTin1HJ=kdq1A1p2QJkyp+xDJ+2SO4++jv_K+U1de@mail.gmail.com>
	<DFACDA14-4338-4A4A-AC34-027E984C5B55@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinSU-a2hLW77Xs5LJRkRo5JqcQArAq96WCN0CjF@mail.gmail.com>

Bruce:

So an unusual instance of Durrell being less than precise?  But doesn't
Thoreau at the conclusion of *Walden* evoke the glory of sunlit morning by
use of  of the word "dawn"?  *i.e*, "There is more to day than dawn. The sun
is but a morning star".

Billy

On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Bruce Redwine
<bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>wrote:

> Billy,
>
> Where is Durrell standing on a ship "at dawn," as he looks out at Venice?
>  Probably on the stern or the port side, assuming he's still in the lagoon
> in front of San Marco.  That's the classic view.  In any event, faint
> sunlight is at Durrell's back.  "Dawn" means the light before sunrise.  It's
> by definition shadowy, indistinct.  So, the city would have still been in
> shadows, and I don't see how it could have been illuminated enough for him
> to see "a thousand fresh-water reflections."  He's imagining all that ?
> "seeing things," if you will, with Turner's "demented" eye.  All of which is
> perfectly legitimate for someone who is a poet and invents his own reality.
>  That's why I read him.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>  On Oct 25, 2010, at 10:27 AM, William Apt wrote:
>
>  Bruce:
>
> If the sun is rising on the ship that carries him to Cyprus, it rises at
> the front, not the back, of the ship; and the light cast would illumine the
> city, not put it in shadow.  Right?
>
> BILLY
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Bruce Redwine <
> bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> I just returned from a trip to Italy, which included five days in Venice.
>>  My first visit to *la Serenissima.  *Here are some notes, in a
>> Durrellian context.  I'm interested in the way Durrell's imagination works
>> and how its responds to reality.
>>
>>
>>  Early morning walk to Piazza San Marco.  Clear day.  Everything sharply
>> defined.  Note the difference in depictions of Venice.  The 18th century
>> paintings of the city have blue skies, towering white cumulous clouds, and
>> green lagoon.  True to light and eye.  Contrast this genre with Turner?s
>> (1830s), Whistler?s (1870s-80s), and Sargent?s (1900s) paintings of a misty,
>> watery atmosphere, the city dissolving in a haze.  Turner must have started
>> this way of seeing the city.
>>
>> Luchino Visconti opens his film version of *Death in Venice* (1971) with
>> this crepuscular view, enhanced by Mahler?s background music.  (This is
>> Visconti's interpretation of Thomas Mann, who does not describe Venice in
>> this manner.)  Lawrence Durrell, at the beginning of *Bitter Lemons *(1957),
>> verbalizes this 19th century trend:  ?These thoughts belong to Venice at
>> dawn, seen from the deck of the ship which is to carry me through the
>> islands to Cyprus; a Venice wobbling in a thousand fresh-water reflections,
>> cool as jelly.  It was as if some great master, stricken by dementia, had
>> burst his whole colour-box against the sky to deafen the inner eye of the
>> world.  Cloud and water mixed into each other, dripping with colours,
>> merging, overlapping, liquefying, with steeples and balconies and roofs
>> floating in space, like the fragments of some stained-glass window seen
>> through a dozen veils of rice-paper.  Fragments of history touched with the
>> colours of wine, tar, ochre, blood, fire-opal and ripening grain.  The whole
>> at the same time being rinsed softly back at the edges into a dawn sky as
>> softly as circumspectly blue as a pigeon?s egg? (p. 15).
>>
>> This is Venice at dawn?  Where the sun rises behind Durrell?s ship, and
>> the city must be in shadow?  A beautiful description, but I doubt the city
>> looks like this at sunrise.  Durrell?s Venice derives from his ?inner eye of
>> the world,? that is, his imagination, which seems greatly indebted to
>> ?fragments of history,? namely, the visual tradition of Turner, Sargent, and
>> Whistler.
>>
>> Note Durrell's mixed metaphors:  ?great master,? a painter, who is
>> demented, who colors the sky, who also ?deafens? the ?inner eye.?  You might
>> say this is intentional:  mixing the senses of sight and hearing to achieve
>> a literary effect equivalent to Turner?s watercolors.  Possibly.  But I
>> wonder if this is just sloppy thinking and writing.  Many such instances in
>> Durrell?s oeuvre.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> WILLIAM APT
> Attorney at Law
> 7004 Bee Cave Rd, Bldg 1,
> Ste 205
> Austin TX 78746
> 512/708-8300
> 512/708-8011 FAX
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>


-- 
WILLIAM APT
Attorney at Law
7004 Bee Cave Rd, Bldg 1,
Ste 205
Austin TX 78746
512/708-8300
512/708-8011 FAX
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 26 11:08:09 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 11:08:09 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinSU-a2hLW77Xs5LJRkRo5JqcQArAq96WCN0CjF@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B20268C6-C42B-4E2A-B6AA-C86E508B0A34@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTin1HJ=kdq1A1p2QJkyp+xDJ+2SO4++jv_K+U1de@mail.gmail.com>
	<DFACDA14-4338-4A4A-AC34-027E984C5B55@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTinSU-a2hLW77Xs5LJRkRo5JqcQArAq96WCN0CjF@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ECC939F5-1C65-4503-AE39-297EDA330EA5@earthlink.net>

Billy,

I basically agree ? that Durrell is entitled to imprecision.  But as I prefaced my notes, I'm interested in Durrell's imaginative process, and by that I mean both the context and the workings of his imagination or "inner eye," as he calls it.

Re context, it seems fairly clear to me that Durrell couldn't have possibly seen the Venice he describes on p. 15 of Bitter Lemons.  That beautiful description is a recreation, a reinterpretation of reality, much like Turner's watercolors of the city (which may have been the inspiration of Durrell's ekphrasis).  Is this an "unusual instance?"  I'm beginning to think not.  Durrell invented a lot, and he wasn't particularly choosy about how he went about doing it.  Take the inverted-mirage image of Alexandria in Balthazar ("We saw, inverted in the sky, a full-scale mirage of the city" [p. 16]).  As Bill Godshalk has shown, Durrell lifted (without, by the way, any hint of attribution) that entire passage from R. Talbot Kelly's Egypt:  Painted and Described (1903).

Re workings, Dr. Anthony Durrell, a psychiatrist, has pointed out to me that LD may have had a form of synesthesia, which could have contributed to his unusual use of language, such as the confusion of sight and sound.  Hence, the mixed metaphors.  I'm also reminded of Claude Monet's paintings of his garden at Giverny ? where water and flora blend together ? that stunning use of light and color has been attributed to the painter's failing eyesight.

So Lawrence Durrell may have been diseased, and that "sickness" may have fed his literary genius.  This is not in the least a new idea.  It is one of Thomas Mann's major themes and appears in his great novella, Death in Venice.  Art as disease, artist as sick person.  Which takes us back to the Venice of Turner and possibly Ruskin.  In my opinion, however, L. Durrell surpasses J. Ruskin as an interpreter of Turner.


Bruce




On Oct 26, 2010, at 8:26 AM, William Apt wrote:

> Bruce:
>  
> So an unusual instance of Durrell being less than precise?  But doesn't Thoreau at the conclusion of Walden evoke the glory of sunlit morning by use of  of the word "dawn"?  i.e, "There is more to day than dawn. The sun is but a morning star". 
>  
> Billy 
> 
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Billy,
> 
> Where is Durrell standing on a ship "at dawn," as he looks out at Venice?  Probably on the stern or the port side, assuming he's still in the lagoon in front of San Marco.  That's the classic view.  In any event, faint sunlight is at Durrell's back.  "Dawn" means the light before sunrise.  It's by definition shadowy, indistinct.  So, the city would have still been in shadows, and I don't see how it could have been illuminated enough for him to see "a thousand fresh-water reflections."  He's imagining all that ? "seeing things," if you will, with Turner's "demented" eye.  All of which is perfectly legitimate for someone who is a poet and invents his own reality.  That's why I read him.
> 
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 25, 2010, at 10:27 AM, William Apt wrote:
> 
>> Bruce:
>>  
>> If the sun is rising on the ship that carries him to Cyprus, it rises at the front, not the back, of the ship; and the light cast would illumine the city, not put it in shadow.  Right?
>>  
>> BILLY  
>> 
>> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> I just returned from a trip to Italy, which included five days in Venice.  My first visit to la Serenissima.  Here are some notes, in a Durrellian context.  I'm interested in the way Durrell's imagination works and how its responds to reality.
>> 
>> 
>> Early morning walk to Piazza San Marco.  Clear day.  Everything sharply defined.  Note the difference in depictions of Venice.  The 18th century paintings of the city have blue skies, towering white cumulous clouds, and green lagoon.  True to light and eye.  Contrast this genre with Turner?s (1830s), Whistler?s (1870s-80s), and Sargent?s (1900s) paintings of a misty, watery atmosphere, the city dissolving in a haze.  Turner must have started this way of seeing the city.
>> 
>> Luchino Visconti opens his film version of Death in Venice (1971) with this crepuscular view, enhanced by Mahler?s background music.  (This is Visconti's interpretation of Thomas Mann, who does not describe Venice in this manner.)  Lawrence Durrell, at the beginning of Bitter Lemons (1957), verbalizes this 19th century trend:  ?These thoughts belong to Venice at dawn, seen from the deck of the ship which is to carry me through the islands to Cyprus; a Venice wobbling in a thousand fresh-water reflections, cool as jelly.  It was as if some great master, stricken by dementia, had burst his whole colour-box against the sky to deafen the inner eye of the world.  Cloud and water mixed into each other, dripping with colours, merging, overlapping, liquefying, with steeples and balconies and roofs floating in space, like the fragments of some stained-glass window seen through a dozen veils of rice-paper.  Fragments of history touched with the colours of wine, tar, ochre, blood, fire-opal and ripening grain.  The whole at the same time being rinsed softly back at the edges into a dawn sky as softly as circumspectly blue as a pigeon?s egg? (p. 15).
>> 
>> This is Venice at dawn?  Where the sun rises behind Durrell?s ship, and the city must be in shadow?  A beautiful description, but I doubt the city looks like this at sunrise.  Durrell?s Venice derives from his ?inner eye of the world,? that is, his imagination, which seems greatly indebted to ?fragments of history,? namely, the visual tradition of Turner, Sargent, and Whistler.
>> 
>> Note Durrell's mixed metaphors:  ?great master,? a painter, who is demented, who colors the sky, who also ?deafens? the ?inner eye.?  You might say this is intentional:  mixing the senses of sight and hearing to achieve a literary effect equivalent to Turner?s watercolors.  Possibly.  But I wonder if this is just sloppy thinking and writing.  Many such instances in Durrell?s oeuvre.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> WILLIAM APT
>> Attorney at Law
>> 7004 Bee Cave Rd, Bldg 1,
>> Ste 205
>> Austin TX 78746
>> 512/708-8300
>> 512/708-8011 FAX
>> 
>> 
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From billyapt at gmail.com  Tue Oct 26 13:24:34 2010
From: billyapt at gmail.com (William Apt)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 15:24:34 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
In-Reply-To: <ECC939F5-1C65-4503-AE39-297EDA330EA5@earthlink.net>
References: <B20268C6-C42B-4E2A-B6AA-C86E508B0A34@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTin1HJ=kdq1A1p2QJkyp+xDJ+2SO4++jv_K+U1de@mail.gmail.com>
	<DFACDA14-4338-4A4A-AC34-027E984C5B55@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTinSU-a2hLW77Xs5LJRkRo5JqcQArAq96WCN0CjF@mail.gmail.com>
	<ECC939F5-1C65-4503-AE39-297EDA330EA5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinoLEBZgDfv-5KqGvROXK7o_pYGxNtsTPCd5j73@mail.gmail.com>

Bruce:

What a wonderfully enlightening email you sent: like a small grad course
compressed into a few paragraphs!  Thank you...  I am reading MacNiven's bio
of Durrell right now and am about half way through.  What strikes me most is
how Durrell - like Bob Dylan - seemed to spring fully formed as
an accomplished artist out of nothing.  What was it about the way his mind
worked?  MacNiven notes how Durrell was himself surprised in this
regard.  All I know is that what makes art great is the ability of the
artist to disguise or to rearrange the familiar, causing us to see things in
a way we have never seen before.  Recent scientific developments have shown
that pathological criminal behavior is the result of biological
underdevelopment of parts of the brain that govern such things as our sense
of empathy.  In contrast, perhaps great artists suffer from overdevelopment
of certain parts of their brains at the expense of others, hence
the long-held view of artists as dysfunctional,  unbalanced etc..... not so
much disease as merely the way the brain was formed.  That said, we still
wind up at the same place:  something's not right:  but in one case it
results in horror, in the other, in an art that provides the mirror by which
we judge the advancement of our civilization.

BILLY

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Bruce Redwine
<bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>wrote:

> Billy,
>
> I basically agree ? that Durrell is entitled to imprecision.  But as I
> prefaced my notes, I'm interested in Durrell's imaginative process, and by
> that I mean both the context and the workings of his imagination or "inner
> eye," as he calls it.
>
> Re context, it seems fairly clear to me that Durrell couldn't have possibly
> seen the Venice he describes on p. 15 of *Bitter Lemons.*  That beautiful
> description is a recreation, a reinterpretation of reality, much like
> Turner's watercolors of the city (which may have been the inspiration of
> Durrell's *ekphrasis).*  Is this an "unusual instance?"  I'm beginning to
> think not.  Durrell invented a lot, and he wasn't particularly choosy about
> how he went about doing it.  Take the inverted-mirage image of Alexandria in
> *Balthazar* ("We saw, inverted in the sky, a full-scale mirage of the
> city" [p. 16]).  As Bill Godshalk has shown, Durrell lifted (without, by the
> way, any hint of attribution) that entire passage from R. Talbot Kelly's *Egypt:
>  Painted and Described *(1903).
>
> Re workings, Dr. Anthony Durrell, a psychiatrist, has pointed out to me
> that LD may have had a form of synesthesia, which could have contributed to
> his unusual use of language, such as the confusion of sight and sound.
>  Hence, the mixed metaphors.  I'm also reminded of Claude Monet's paintings
> of his garden at Giverny ? where water and flora blend together ? that
> stunning use of light and color has been attributed to the painter's failing
> eyesight.
>
> So Lawrence Durrell may have been diseased, and that "sickness" may have
> fed his literary genius.  This is not in the least a new idea.  It is one of
> Thomas Mann's major themes and appears in his great novella, *Death in
> Venice.*  Art as disease, artist as sick person.  Which takes us back to
> the Venice of Turner and possibly Ruskin.  In my opinion, however, L.
> Durrell surpasses J. Ruskin as an interpreter of Turner.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>  On Oct 26, 2010, at 8:26 AM, William Apt wrote:
>
>  Bruce:
>
> So an unusual instance of Durrell being less than precise?  But doesn't
> Thoreau at the conclusion of *Walden* evoke the glory of sunlit morning by
> use of  of the word "dawn"?  *i.e*, "There is more to day than dawn. The
> sun is but a morning star".
>
> Billy
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
> > wrote:
>
>> Billy,
>>
>> Where is Durrell standing on a ship "at dawn," as he looks out at Venice?
>>  Probably on the stern or the port side, assuming he's still in the lagoon
>> in front of San Marco.  That's the classic view.  In any event, faint
>> sunlight is at Durrell's back.  "Dawn" means the light before sunrise.  It's
>> by definition shadowy, indistinct.  So, the city would have still been in
>> shadows, and I don't see how it could have been illuminated enough for him
>> to see "a thousand fresh-water reflections."  He's imagining all that ?
>> "seeing things," if you will, with Turner's "demented" eye.  All of which is
>> perfectly legitimate for someone who is a poet and invents his own reality.
>>  That's why I read him.
>>
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Oct 25, 2010, at 10:27 AM, William Apt wrote:
>>
>>  Bruce:
>>
>> If the sun is rising on the ship that carries him to Cyprus, it rises at
>> the front, not the back, of the ship; and the light cast would illumine the
>> city, not put it in shadow.  Right?
>>
>> BILLY
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Bruce Redwine <
>> bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I just returned from a trip to Italy, which included five days in Venice.
>>>  My first visit to *la Serenissima.  *Here are some notes, in a
>>> Durrellian context.  I'm interested in the way Durrell's imagination works
>>> and how its responds to reality.
>>>
>>>
>>>  Early morning walk to Piazza San Marco.  Clear day.  Everything sharply
>>> defined.  Note the difference in depictions of Venice.  The 18th century
>>> paintings of the city have blue skies, towering white cumulous clouds, and
>>> green lagoon.  True to light and eye.  Contrast this genre with Turner?s
>>> (1830s), Whistler?s (1870s-80s), and Sargent?s (1900s) paintings of a misty,
>>> watery atmosphere, the city dissolving in a haze.  Turner must have started
>>> this way of seeing the city.
>>>
>>> Luchino Visconti opens his film version of *Death in Venice* (1971) with
>>> this crepuscular view, enhanced by Mahler?s background music.  (This is
>>> Visconti's interpretation of Thomas Mann, who does not describe Venice in
>>> this manner.)  Lawrence Durrell, at the beginning of *Bitter Lemons *(1957),
>>> verbalizes this 19th century trend:  ?These thoughts belong to Venice at
>>> dawn, seen from the deck of the ship which is to carry me through the
>>> islands to Cyprus; a Venice wobbling in a thousand fresh-water reflections,
>>> cool as jelly.  It was as if some great master, stricken by dementia, had
>>> burst his whole colour-box against the sky to deafen the inner eye of the
>>> world.  Cloud and water mixed into each other, dripping with colours,
>>> merging, overlapping, liquefying, with steeples and balconies and roofs
>>> floating in space, like the fragments of some stained-glass window seen
>>> through a dozen veils of rice-paper.  Fragments of history touched with the
>>> colours of wine, tar, ochre, blood, fire-opal and ripening grain.  The whole
>>> at the same time being rinsed softly back at the edges into a dawn sky as
>>> softly as circumspectly blue as a pigeon?s egg? (p. 15).
>>>
>>> This is Venice at dawn?  Where the sun rises behind Durrell?s ship, and
>>> the city must be in shadow?  A beautiful description, but I doubt the city
>>> looks like this at sunrise.  Durrell?s Venice derives from his ?inner eye of
>>> the world,? that is, his imagination, which seems greatly indebted to
>>> ?fragments of history,? namely, the visual tradition of Turner, Sargent, and
>>> Whistler.
>>>
>>> Note Durrell's mixed metaphors:  ?great master,? a painter, who is
>>> demented, who colors the sky, who also ?deafens? the ?inner eye.?  You might
>>> say this is intentional:  mixing the senses of sight and hearing to achieve
>>> a literary effect equivalent to Turner?s watercolors.  Possibly.  But I
>>> wonder if this is just sloppy thinking and writing.  Many such instances in
>>> Durrell?s oeuvre.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> WILLIAM APT
>> Attorney at Law
>> 7004 Bee Cave Rd, Bldg 1,
>> Ste 205
>> Austin TX 78746
>> 512/708-8300
>> 512/708-8011 FAX
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>


-- 
WILLIAM APT
Attorney at Law
7004 Bee Cave Rd, Bldg 1,
Ste 205
Austin TX 78746
512/708-8300
512/708-8011 FAX
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From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Tue Oct 26 15:42:49 2010
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 00:42:49 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
In-Reply-To: <ECC939F5-1C65-4503-AE39-297EDA330EA5@earthlink.net>
References: <B20268C6-C42B-4E2A-B6AA-C86E508B0A34@earthlink.net>	<AANLkTin1HJ=kdq1A1p2QJkyp+xDJ+2SO4++jv_K+U1de@mail.gmail.com>	<DFACDA14-4338-4A4A-AC34-027E984C5B55@earthlink.net>	<AANLkTinSU-a2hLW77Xs5LJRkRo5JqcQArAq96WCN0CjF@mail.gmail.com>
	<ECC939F5-1C65-4503-AE39-297EDA330EA5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4CC75969.5010908@interdesign.fr>

Makes one wish that there were more authors with 
deseases and sicknesses.
Marc

Le 26/10/10 20:08, Bruce Redwine a ?crit :
> Billy,
>
> I basically agree ? that Durrell is entitled to imprecision. But as I
> prefaced my notes, I'm interested in Durrell's imaginative process, and
> by that I mean both the context and the workings of his imagination or
> "inner eye," as he calls it.
>
> Re context, it seems fairly clear to me that Durrell couldn't have
> possibly seen the Venice he describes on p. 15 of /Bitter Lemons./ That
> beautiful description is a recreation, a reinterpretation of reality,
> much like Turner's watercolors of the city (which may have been the
> inspiration of Durrell's /ekphrasis)./ Is this an "unusual instance?"
> I'm beginning to think not. Durrell invented a lot, and he wasn't
> particularly choosy about how he went about doing it. Take the
> inverted-mirage image of Alexandria in /Balthazar/ ("We saw, inverted in
> the sky, a full-scale mirage of the city" [p. 16]). As Bill Godshalk has
> shown, Durrell lifted (without, by the way, any hint of attribution)
> that entire passage from R. Talbot Kelly's /Egypt: Painted and Described
> /(1903).
>
> Re workings, Dr. Anthony Durrell, a psychiatrist, has pointed out to me
> that LD may have had a form of synesthesia, which could have contributed
> to his unusual use of language, such as the confusion of sight and
> sound. Hence, the mixed metaphors. I'm also reminded of Claude Monet's
> paintings of his garden at Giverny ? where water and flora blend
> together ? that stunning use of light and color has been attributed to
> the painter's failing eyesight.
>
> So Lawrence Durrell may have been diseased, and that "sickness" may have
> fed his literary genius. This is not in the least a new idea. It is one
> of Thomas Mann's major themes and appears in his great novella, /Death
> in Venice./ Art as disease, artist as sick person. Which takes us back
> to the Venice of Turner and possibly Ruskin. In my opinion, however, L.
> Durrell surpasses J. Ruskin as an interpreter of Turner.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 26, 2010, at 8:26 AM, William Apt wrote:
>
>> Bruce:
>> So an unusual instance of Durrell being less than precise? But doesn't
>> Thoreau at the conclusion of /Walden/ evoke the glory of sunlit
>> morning by use of of the word "dawn"? /i.e/, "There is more to day
>> than dawn. The sun is but a morning star".
>> Billy
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Bruce Redwine
>> <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     Billy,
>>
>>     Where is Durrell standing on a ship "at dawn," as he looks out at
>>     Venice? Probably on the stern or the port side, assuming he's
>>     still in the lagoon in front of San Marco. That's the classic
>>     view. In any event, faint sunlight is at Durrell's back. "Dawn"
>>     means the light before sunrise. It's by definition shadowy,
>>     indistinct. So, the city would have still been in shadows, and I
>>     don't see how it could have been illuminated enough for him to see
>>     "a thousand fresh-water reflections." He's imagining all that ?
>>     "seeing things," if you will, with Turner's "demented" eye. All of
>>     which is perfectly legitimate for someone who is a poet and
>>     invents his own reality. That's why I read him.
>>
>>
>>     Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>>     On Oct 25, 2010, at 10:27 AM, William Apt wrote:
>>
>>>     Bruce:
>>>     If the sun is rising on the ship that carries him to Cyprus, it
>>>     rises at the front, not the back, of the ship; and the light cast
>>>     would illumine the city, not put it in shadow. Right?
>>>     BILLY
>>>
>>>     On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Bruce Redwine
>>>     <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>>
>>>     wrote:
>>>
>>>         I just returned from a trip to Italy, which included five
>>>         days in Venice. My first visit to /la Serenissima. /Here are
>>>         some notes, in a Durrellian context. I'm interested in the
>>>         way Durrell's imagination works and how its responds to reality.
>>>
>>>
>>>         Early morning walk to Piazza San Marco. Clear day. Everything
>>>         sharply defined. Note the difference in depictions of Venice.
>>>         The 18th century paintings of the city have blue skies,
>>>         towering white cumulous clouds, and green lagoon. True to
>>>         light and eye. Contrast this genre with Turner?s (1830s),
>>>         Whistler?s (1870s-80s), and Sargent?s (1900s) paintings of a
>>>         misty, watery atmosphere, the city dissolving in a haze.
>>>         Turner must have started this way of seeing the city.
>>>
>>>         Luchino Visconti opens his film version of /Death in Venice/
>>>         (1971) with this crepuscular view, enhanced by Mahler?s
>>>         background music. (This is Visconti's interpretation of
>>>         Thomas Mann, who does not describe Venice in this manner.)
>>>         Lawrence Durrell, at the beginning of /Bitter Lemons /(1957),
>>>         verbalizes this 19th century trend: ?These thoughts belong to
>>>         Venice at dawn, seen from the deck of the ship which is to
>>>         carry me through the islands to Cyprus; a Venice wobbling in
>>>         a thousand fresh-water reflections, cool as jelly. It was as
>>>         if some great master, stricken by dementia, had burst his
>>>         whole colour-box against the sky to deafen the inner eye of
>>>         the world. Cloud and water mixed into each other, dripping
>>>         with colours, merging, overlapping, liquefying, with steeples
>>>         and balconies and roofs floating in space, like the fragments
>>>         of some stained-glass window seen through a dozen veils of
>>>         rice-paper. Fragments of history touched with the colours of
>>>         wine, tar, ochre, blood, fire-opal and ripening grain. The
>>>         whole at the same time being rinsed softly back at the edges
>>>         into a dawn sky as softly as circumspectly blue as a pigeon?s
>>>         egg? (p. 15).
>>>
>>>         This is Venice at dawn? Where the sun rises behind Durrell?s
>>>         ship, and the city must be in shadow? A beautiful
>>>         description, but I doubt the city looks like this at sunrise.
>>>         Durrell?s Venice derives from his ?inner eye of the world,?
>>>         that is, his imagination, which seems greatly indebted to
>>>         ?fragments of history,? namely, the visual tradition of
>>>         Turner, Sargent, and Whistler.
>>>
>>>         Note Durrell's mixed metaphors: ?great master,? a painter,
>>>         who is demented, who colors the sky, who also ?deafens? the
>>>         ?inner eye.? You might say this is intentional: mixing the
>>>         senses of sight and hearing to achieve a literary effect
>>>         equivalent to Turner?s watercolors. Possibly. But I wonder if
>>>         this is just sloppy thinking and writing. Many such instances
>>>         in Durrell?s oeuvre.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         Bruce
>>>
>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>         ILDS mailing list
>>>         ILDS at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ILDS at lists.uvic.ca>
>>>         https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     --
>>>     WILLIAM APT
>>>     Attorney at Law
>>>     7004 Bee Cave Rd, Bldg 1,
>>>     Ste 205
>>>     Austin TX 78746
>>>     512/708-8300
>>>     512/708-8011 FAX
>>>
>>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Wed Oct 27 00:49:29 2010
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:49:29 +1100
Subject: [ilds] Venice, Turner, Impressionists
Message-ID: <2A3271B97C204CF4BEC3D4FD2DFCDA55@DenisePC>

there is always an element of the surreal in Durrell and I am thinking he went often to the impressionists or indeed to the surrealists for his images. There is a painting of Venice, all mauves and blues, that belongs to one of the Impressionists that very much suggests that wobbling like a jelly image - tried an internet search today, but did not find what I was looking for. The school library had many of Turner's Venice painting which struck me as all too ethereal and vague to inspired Durrell's more modernist description. How about Dali in Durrell - I am thinking of Alexandria reflected in the sky - sure lifted from Talbot but Surreal none the less (only the city is real - don't think so). The writer as painter, the painter as writer. Durrell did both and mixed both.  And yes Marc more writers with diseases and Keatsean illhealth or self induced alcoholic torment. A lot of writers today go out on parade as being so normal, such journeymen. they call themselves wordsmiths or say well I work nine to five and then go for jog and have mung beans for dinner and drink mineral water.. fuck off!!! give me Orson WellEs, give me Durrell and give me a chardonnay infusion the next time some best selling author tells me how boring they are .. and is! Quelle Maleur


David Whitewine
16 William Street
Marrickville NSW 2204
+ 61 2 9564 6`65
0412 707 625
www.denisetart.com.au
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From igel40 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Oct 27 01:55:21 2010
From: igel40 at yahoo.co.uk (Gisela Hoyle)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:55:21 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ilds] Venice, Turner, Impressionists
In-Reply-To: <2A3271B97C204CF4BEC3D4FD2DFCDA55@DenisePC>
References: <2A3271B97C204CF4BEC3D4FD2DFCDA55@DenisePC>
Message-ID: <106335.77581.qm@web29504.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

I am new to this - forgive if I have misunderstood things:

Surely if there is going to be a quality test for writing it needs to be the 
writing itself, and?whether it is inspired by alcohol or mung beans remain 
immaterial? Nor am I sure that Mann was equating art and illness. Aschenbach 
becomes ill only after he was written his best piece; once he is ill he no 
longer writes and is described in fairly disgusting terms actually. Mann is not 
advocating disease at all, I think, but sees it as a danger inherent in art - to 
which all the self-indulgent drivel too often churned out by self-induced 
alcoholic torment?of too many 'artists' is a testament.

Gisela Hoyle





________________________________
From: Denise Tart & David Green <dtart at bigpond.net.au>
To: Durrel <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Cc: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
Sent: Wed, 27 October, 2010 8:49:29
Subject: [ilds] Venice, Turner, Impressionists


there is always an element of the surreal in Durrell and I am thinking he went 
often to the impressionists or indeed to the surrealists for his images. There 
is a painting of Venice, all mauves and blues, that belongs to one of the 
Impressionists that very much?suggests that wobbling like a jelly image - tried 
an internet search today, but did not find what I was looking for. The school 
library had many of Turner's Venice painting which struck me as all too ethereal 
and vague to inspired Durrell's more modernist description. How about Dali in 
Durrell - I am thinking of Alexandria reflected in the sky - sure lifted from 
Talbot but Surreal none the less (only the city is real - don't think so). The 
writer as painter, the painter as writer. Durrell did both and mixed both.? And 
yes Marc more writers with diseases and Keatsean illhealth or self induced 
alcoholic torment.?A lot of writers today go out on parade as being so normal, 
such journeymen. they call themselves wordsmiths or say well I work?nine to five 
and then go for jog and have mung beans for dinner and drink mineral water.. 
fuck off!!! give me Orson WellEs, give me Durrell and give me a chardonnay 
infusion the next time some best selling author tells me how boring they are .. 
and is! Quelle Maleur
?
?
David Whitewine
16 William Street
Marrickville NSW 2204
+ 61 2 9564 6`65
0412 707 625
www.denisetart.com.au


      
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From jcu at execulink.com  Wed Oct 27 05:00:15 2010
From: jcu at execulink.com (jcu)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 08:00:15 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Venice, Turner, Impressionists
In-Reply-To: <2A3271B97C204CF4BEC3D4FD2DFCDA55@DenisePC>
References: <2A3271B97C204CF4BEC3D4FD2DFCDA55@DenisePC>
Message-ID: <1EAE218B-4465-4822-921A-263652EE5304@execulink.com>

you wrote, "the painter as writer".

Really? ... Perhaps what you mean to say is that Durell
found many 'languages with which to express himself
(ie.with paint, with words) and learned how best to exploit
each one for what if offered him, each one with its own
inherent 'grammar', and, was well versed in the many
art movements of his day. How could he not be influenced
by such a rich art historical period. But are you designating
his writing as  'surrealist'?... because his paintings are not, and
by your logic, one medium is a continuum of the other for him
(painter as writer, writer as painter)?

And as for your praise of the notion of a well-trodden stereotype,
that writers/artists who live out addicted lives for the sake of their  
tortured
craft are noteworthy ... you revel in this cliche, that 'genius' has  
to suffer
addiction that it serves as a barometer for authentic talent  ...  How  
interesting
to  note that academia loves to frame the self abuse of their idols as  
requisite
for talent (akin to paparazzi creating the cult of personality). More  
likely,
the daily drive to write endures, inspite of 'chardonney infusions'.

joan
canada
non academic lurker






On 27-Oct-10, at 3:49 AM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote:

> there is always an element of the surreal in Durrell and I am  
> thinking he went often to the impressionists or indeed to the  
> surrealists for his images. There is a painting of Venice, all  
> mauves and blues, that belongs to one of the Impressionists that  
> very much suggests that wobbling like a jelly image - tried an  
> internet search today, but did not find what I was looking for. The  
> school library had many of Turner's Venice painting which struck me  
> as all too ethereal and vague to inspired Durrell's more modernist  
> description. How about Dali in Durrell - I am thinking of Alexandria  
> reflected in the sky - sure lifted from Talbot but Surreal none the  
> less (only the city is real - don't think so). The writer as  
> painter, the painter as writer. Durrell did both and mixed both.   
> And yes Marc more writers with diseases and Keatsean illhealth or  
> self induced alcoholic torment. A lot of writers today go out on  
> parade as being so normal, such journeymen. they call themselves  
> wordsmiths or say well I work nine to five and then go for jog and  
> have mung beans for dinner and drink mineral water.. fuck off!!!  
> give me Orson WellEs, give me Durrell and give me a chardonnay  
> infusion the next time some best selling author tells me how boring  
> they are .. and is! Quelle Maleur
>
>
> David Whitewine
> 16 William Street
> Marrickville NSW 2204
> + 61 2 9564 6`65
> 0412 707 625
> www.denisetart.com.au
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

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From jcu at execulink.com  Wed Oct 27 06:00:41 2010
From: jcu at execulink.com (jcu)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:00:41 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Venice, Turner, Impressionists
In-Reply-To: <1EAE218B-4465-4822-921A-263652EE5304@execulink.com>
References: <2A3271B97C204CF4BEC3D4FD2DFCDA55@DenisePC>
	<1EAE218B-4465-4822-921A-263652EE5304@execulink.com>
Message-ID: <6E6635B3-55B6-4B07-B80A-3DDC918A0CAF@execulink.com>

ps,

Perhaps by 'Venice  mauves and purples that wobbly like jelly',
you refer to Monet's paintings of Venice (he painted in Venice, in
the fall of 1908)?



On 27-Oct-10, at 8:00 AM, jcu wrote:

> you wrote, "the painter as writer".
>
> Really? ... Perhaps what you mean to say is that Durell
> found many 'languages with which to express himself
> (ie.with paint, with words) and learned how best to exploit
> each one for what if offered him, each one with its own
> inherent 'grammar', and, was well versed in the many
> art movements of his day. How could he not be influenced
> by such a rich art historical period. But are you designating
> his writing as  'surrealist'?... because his paintings are not, and
> by your logic, one medium is a continuum of the other for him
> (painter as writer, writer as painter)?
>
> And as for your praise of the notion of a well-trodden stereotype,
> that writers/artists who live out addicted lives for the sake of  
> their tortured
> craft are noteworthy ... you revel in this cliche, that 'genius' has  
> to suffer
> addiction that it serves as a barometer for authentic talent  ...   
> How interesting
> to  note that academia loves to frame the self abuse of their idols  
> as requisite
> for talent (akin to paparazzi creating the cult of personality).  
> More likely,
> the daily drive to write endures, inspite of 'chardonney infusions'.
>
> joan
> canada
> non academic lurker
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27-Oct-10, at 3:49 AM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote:
>
>> there is always an element of the surreal in Durrell and I am  
>> thinking he went often to the impressionists or indeed to the  
>> surrealists for his images. There is a painting of Venice, all  
>> mauves and blues, that belongs to one of the Impressionists that  
>> very much suggests that wobbling like a jelly image - tried an  
>> internet search today, but did not find what I was looking for. The  
>> school library had many of Turner's Venice painting which struck me  
>> as all too ethereal and vague to inspired Durrell's more modernist  
>> description. How about Dali in Durrell - I am thinking of  
>> Alexandria reflected in the sky - sure lifted from Talbot but  
>> Surreal none the less (only the city is real - don't think so). The  
>> writer as painter, the painter as writer. Durrell did both and  
>> mixed both.  And yes Marc more writers with diseases and Keatsean  
>> illhealth or self induced alcoholic torment. A lot of writers today  
>> go out on parade as being so normal, such journeymen. they call  
>> themselves wordsmiths or say well I work nine to five and then go  
>> for jog and have mung beans for dinner and drink mineral water..  
>> fuck off!!! give me Orson WellEs, give me Durrell and give me a  
>> chardonnay infusion the next time some best selling author tells me  
>> how boring they are .. and is! Quelle Maleur
>>
>>
>> David Whitewine
>> 16 William Street
>> Marrickville NSW 2204
>> + 61 2 9564 6`65
>> 0412 707 625
>> www.denisetart.com.au
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

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From gkoger at mindspring.com  Wed Oct 27 07:32:23 2010
From: gkoger at mindspring.com (gkoger at mindspring.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 08:32:23 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
Message-ID: <31243258.1288189944748.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 27 07:31:38 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:31:38 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Art and Disease
In-Reply-To: <106335.77581.qm@web29504.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <2A3271B97C204CF4BEC3D4FD2DFCDA55@DenisePC>
	<106335.77581.qm@web29504.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D2E3E600-25E0-4A7B-9333-FF678F4DF7D6@earthlink.net>


Gisela,

Art as illness is a common theme in Mann's writings.  Besides Death in Venice, see Tonio Kr?ger and especially The Magic Mountain.  Hans Castorp, the "hero" of the latter, goes to a Swiss sanitarium as a healthy but rather ordinary marine engineer, is discovered to have TB, and then spends the next seven years achieving a heighten awareness due to his illness and the extraordinary environment in which he finds himself, one full of sick people.  As Mann writes in his essay on Dostoevsky, "certain conquests made by the soul and the mind are impossible without disease, madness, crime of the spirit."  To be sure, Mann explores the positive and negative aspects of the art-disease relationship, but I doubt he ever denied its importance.  Advocacy is another matter.  Tonio Kr?ger longs to be ordinary, but he isn't, and he eventually accepts that.  Mann himself was obviously an artist, and the fact he was also a closet homosexual undoubtedly contributed to his sense of alienation.

Does Lawrence Durrell fit this diagnosis?  I think he does, and his alcoholism, among other symptoms, is probably an aspect of his creativity.



Bruce



On Oct 27, 2010, at 1:55 AM, Gisela Hoyle wrote:

> I am new to this - forgive if I have misunderstood things:
>  
> Surely if there is going to be a quality test for writing it needs to be the writing itself, and whether it is inspired by alcohol or mung beans remain immaterial? Nor am I sure that Mann was equating art and illness. Aschenbach becomes ill only after he was written his best piece; once he is ill he no longer writes and is described in fairly disgusting terms actually. Mann is not advocating disease at all, I think, but sees it as a danger inherent in art - to which all the self-indulgent drivel too often churned out by self-induced alcoholic torment of too many 'artists' is a testament.
>  
> Gisela Hoyle
> 
> 
> From: Denise Tart & David Green <dtart at bigpond.net.au>
> To: Durrel <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Cc: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
> Sent: Wed, 27 October, 2010 8:49:29
> Subject: [ilds] Venice, Turner, Impressionists
> 
> there is always an element of the surreal in Durrell and I am thinking he went often to the impressionists or indeed to the surrealists for his images. There is a painting of Venice, all mauves and blues, that belongs to one of the Impressionists that very much suggests that wobbling like a jelly image - tried an internet search today, but did not find what I was looking for. The school library had many of Turner's Venice painting which struck me as all too ethereal and vague to inspired Durrell's more modernist description. How about Dali in Durrell - I am thinking of Alexandria reflected in the sky - sure lifted from Talbot but Surreal none the less (only the city is real - don't think so). The writer as painter, the painter as writer. Durrell did both and mixed both.  And yes Marc more writers with diseases and Keatsean illhealth or self induced alcoholic torment. A lot of writers today go out on parade as being so normal, such journeymen. they call themselves wordsmiths or say well I work nine to five and then go for jog and have mung beans for dinner and drink mineral water.. fuck off!!! give me Orson WellEs, give me Durrell and give me a chardonnay infusion the next time some best selling author tells me how boring they are .. and is! Quelle Maleur
>  
>  
> David Whitewine
> 16 William Street
> Marrickville NSW 2204
> + 61 2 9564 6`65
> 0412 707 625
> www.denisetart.com.au
> 
> _
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 27 11:00:45 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:00:45 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
In-Reply-To: <31243258.1288189944748.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <31243258.1288189944748.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9EC4CE07-DECB-432D-A045-5F17C97DD83B@earthlink.net>

Grove,

Someone should do the kind of legwork you suggest.  The results would be interesting, but I'm not sure it would solve the problem.  Is there a way to know the clarity of light and air at that particularly "dawn?"  Bitter Lemons opens very deceptively.  It gives the impression that Durrell is recording his thoughts as he leaves Venice for Cyprus.  The reader is made to feel as though he is actually inside the author's head at the moment of departure.  Which is confirmed by the statement, "These thoughts belong to Venice at dawn" (p. 15).  After the reader accepts that, he sees as Durrell sees.  But Durrell wrote his book much later, on Cyprus.  He was not a plein air author, just as Turner was not a plein air painter.  Turner made his sketches in Venice and took them back to London where he recreated the scenes and turned them into watercolors.  I see Durrell doing something similar, albeit his imagination owes a debt to Turner.  And we know Durrell greatly admired the painter.  MacNiven in his biogoraphy says Durrell "developed a passion for Turner's landscapes" (p. 86).

Yes, Turner and Canaletto both produce representations of reality.  No, that they are equivalent.  Canaletto's paintings are realistic; they could be touched-up photographs.  Turners watercolors are not; they open up a new way of seeing things.  Ask yourself, where are you when viewing a Canaletto landscape?  In Venice, of course.  A prettified Venice, but Venice without a doubt.  And where are you when seeing a Turner?  I see myself inside the strange landscape of the painter's wild imagination, which remotely corresponds to Venice.  Durrell also does this, which is what I mean by reworking things. 

At a museum in Venice, I bought a book on Turner and Venice:  Venice:  Turner's Watercolours (Paris, Biblioth?que de l'Image, 2009?).  Alongside Turner's paintings are descriptive excerpts from various authors:  Barr?s, Suar?s, Mann, Ruskin, James, Proust, Stendhal, etc.  None of these quotations capture the spirit of Turner's Venetian art as well as Durrell does at the beginning of Bitter Lemons.  Unfortunately, LD is not included.  I recommend the book.  Marc, you should get it.


Bruce






On Oct 27, 2010, at 7:32 AM, gkoger at mindspring.com wrote:

> Bruce,
>  
> Rather than speculate further, why not check guidebooks/timetables for the period? If we knew with some certainty what time Durrell's ship was scheduled to sail, we might have a better chance of judging the degree and nature of his imprecision. 
>  
> I'd like to stress again that Turner's paintings of Venice are no more reinterpretations of reality than Canaletto's. Or am I misinterpreting your point?
>  
> Grove
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Bruce Redwine 
> Sent: Oct 26, 2010 12:08 PM 
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
> Cc: Bruce Redwine 
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell in Venice 
> 
> Billy,
> 
> I basically agree ? that Durrell is entitled to imprecision.  But as I prefaced my notes, I'm interested in Durrell's imaginative process, and by that I mean both the context and the workings of his imagination or "inner eye," as he calls it.
> 
> Re context, it seems fairly clear to me that Durrell couldn't have possibly seen the Venice he describes on p. 15 of Bitter Lemons.  That beautiful description is a recreation, a reinterpretation of reality, much like Turner's watercolors of the city (which may have been the inspiration of Durrell's ekphrasis).  Is this an "unusual instance?"  I'm beginning to think not.  Durrell invented a lot, and he wasn't particularly choosy about how he went about doing it.  Take the inverted-mirage image of Alexandria in Balthazar ("We saw, inverted in the sky, a full-scale mirage of the city" [p. 16]).  As Bill Godshalk has shown, Durrell lifted (without, by the way, any hint of attribution) that entire passage from R. Talbot Kelly's Egypt:  Painted and Described (1903).
> 
> Re workings, Dr. Anthony Durrell, a psychiatrist, has pointed out to me that LD may have had a form of synesthesia, which could have contributed to his unusual use of language, such as the confusion of sight and sound.  Hence, the mixed metaphors.  I'm also reminded of Claude Monet's paintings of his garden at Giverny ? where water and flora blend together ? that stunning use of light and color has been attributed to the painter's failing eyesight.
> 
> So Lawrence Durrell may have been diseased, and that "sickness" may have fed his literary genius.  This is not in the least a new idea.  It is one of Thomas Mann's major themes and appears in his great novella, Death in Venice.  Art as disease, artist as sick person.  Which takes us back to the Venice of Turner and possibly Ruskin.  In my opinion, however, L. Durrell surpasses J. Ruskin as an interpreter of Turner.
> 
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 26, 2010, at 8:26 AM, William Apt wrote:
> 
>> Bruce:
>>  
>> So an unusual instance of Durrell being less than precise?  But doesn't Thoreau at the conclusion of Walden evoke the glory of sunlit morning by use of  of the word "dawn"?  i.e, "There is more to day than dawn. The sun is but a morning star". 
>>  
>> Billy 
>> 
>> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Billy,
>> 
>> Where is Durrell standing on a ship "at dawn," as he looks out at Venice?  Probably on the stern or the port side, assuming he's still in the lagoon in front of San Marco.  That's the classic view.  In any event, faint sunlight is at Durrell's back.  "Dawn" means the light before sunrise.  It's by definition shadowy, indistinct.  So, the city would have still been in shadows, and I don't see how it could have been illuminated enough for him to see "a thousand fresh-water reflections."  He's imagining all that ? "seeing things," if you will, with Turner's "demented" eye.  All of which is perfectly legitimate for someone who is a poet and invents his own reality.  That's why I read him.
>> 
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 25, 2010, at 10:27 AM, William Apt wrote:
>> 
>>> Bruce:
>>>  
>>> If the sun is rising on the ship that carries him to Cyprus, it rises at the front, not the back, of the ship; and the light cast would illumine the city, not put it in shadow.  Right?
>>>  
>>> BILLY  
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> I just returned from a trip to Italy, which included five days in Venice.  My first visit to la Serenissima.  Here are some notes, in a Durrellian context.  I'm interested in the way Durrell's imagination works and how its responds to reality.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Early morning walk to Piazza San Marco.  Clear day.  Everything sharply defined.  Note the difference in depictions of Venice.  The 18th century paintings of the city have blue skies, towering white cumulous clouds, and green lagoon.  True to light and eye.  Contrast this genre with Turner?s (1830s), Whistler?s (1870s-80s), and Sargent?s (1900s) paintings of a misty, watery atmosphere, the city dissolving in a haze.  Turner must have started this way of seeing the city.
>>> 
>>> Luchino Visconti opens his film version of Death in Venice (1971) with this crepuscular view, enhanced by Mahler?s background music.  (This is Visconti's interpretation of Thomas Mann, who does not describe Venice in this manner.)  Lawrence Durrell, at the beginning of Bitter Lemons (1957), verbalizes this 19th century trend:  ?These thoughts belong to Venice at dawn, seen from the deck of the ship which is to carry me through the islands to Cyprus; a Venice wobbling in a thousand fresh-water reflections, cool as jelly.  It was as if some great master, stricken by dementia, had burst his whole colour-box against the sky to deafen the inner eye of the world.  Cloud and water mixed into each other, dripping with colours, merging, overlapping, liquefying, with steeples and balconies and roofs floating in space, like the fragments of some stained-glass window seen through a dozen veils of rice-paper.  Fragments of history touched with the colours of wine, tar, ochre, blood, fire-opal and ripening grain.  The whole at the same time being rinsed softly back at the edges into a dawn sky as softly as circumspectly blue as a pigeon?s egg? (p. 15).
>>> 
>>> This is Venice at dawn?  Where the sun rises behind Durrell?s ship, and the city must be in shadow?  A beautiful description, but I doubt the city looks like this at sunrise.  Durrell?s Venice derives from his ?inner eye of the world,? that is, his imagination, which seems greatly indebted to ?fragments of history,? namely, the visual tradition of Turner, Sargent, and Whistler.
>>> 
>>> Note Durrell's mixed metaphors:  ?great master,? a painter, who is demented, who colors the sky, who also ?deafens? the ?inner eye.?  You might say this is intentional:  mixing the senses of sight and hearing to achieve a literary effect equivalent to Turner?s watercolors.  Possibly.  But I wonder if this is just sloppy thinking and writing.  Many such instances in Durrell?s oeuvre.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Bruce
>>> 

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From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu  Wed Oct 27 11:51:05 2010
From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:51:05 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Durrell and the uses of sexuality
Message-ID: <4CC87499.6040008@utc.edu>

A Sri Lankan editorial on Durrell and his legacy:

Lawrence Durrell and the uses of sexuality 
<http://www.island.lk/index.php?page_cat=article-details&page=article-details&code_title=9918>
October 27, 2010, 6:12 pm
Rajiva Wijesinha

-- 
********************************************
Charles L. Sligh
Assistant Professor
Department of English
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
charles-sligh at utc.edu
********************************************

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From gkoger at mindspring.com  Wed Oct 27 12:29:30 2010
From: gkoger at mindspring.com (gkoger at mindspring.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:29:30 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
Message-ID: <3318760.1288207771000.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Wed Oct 27 13:00:30 2010
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 07:00:30 +1100
Subject: [ilds] Venice, Turner, Impressionists
In-Reply-To: <6E6635B3-55B6-4B07-B80A-3DDC918A0CAF@execulink.com>
References: <2A3271B97C204CF4BEC3D4FD2DFCDA55@DenisePC><1EAE218B-4465-4822-921A-263652EE5304@execulink.com>
	<6E6635B3-55B6-4B07-B80A-3DDC918A0CAF@execulink.com>
Message-ID: <26627599741E45E4BF2BAC9451691DC6@DenisePC>

ps, 


Perhaps by 'Venice  mauves and purples that wobbly like jelly',
you refer to Monet's paintings of Venice (he painted in Venice, in
the fall of 1908)?

Joan,

Yes, that's the one. When I read the passage Bruce refers to in Bitter Lemons that was the painting that came to mind. Good to here from old Canada, another former outpost of the British Empire.
Dont lurk - get into it.

David Wine Infusion

Sydney Australia


.
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From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Wed Oct 27 13:11:16 2010
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 07:11:16 +1100
Subject: [ilds] the drunken writer
Message-ID: <AEFB66BDDA664C2F9D3799D1E220D686@DenisePC>

More likely, 
the daily drive to write endures, inspite of 'chardonney infusions'.

Certainly true in the case of many artists - Hemmingway, Bukowski, Durrell to name a few. But it drove them as well. Hemmingway talked about keeping the motor running, Durrell about creating 'creative
madness' while Bukowski said 'stick to beer and keep tapping the keys'. It's more than a stereotype. many great people are driven by addictions of some sort - many people in fact. But when I think about most the writers I like they are all piss heads. coincidence?

David Whitewine


16 William Street
Marrickville NSW 2204
+ 61 2 9564 6`65
0412 707 625
www.denisetart.com.au
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From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Wed Oct 27 14:22:27 2010
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 23:22:27 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
In-Reply-To: <9EC4CE07-DECB-432D-A045-5F17C97DD83B@earthlink.net>
References: <31243258.1288189944748.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<9EC4CE07-DECB-432D-A045-5F17C97DD83B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4CC89813.5060002@interdesign.fr>

Bruce,
 From what you have said, I would never buy that book!
Firstly I disagree with you in your arguments that 
don't hold up.
What you advance are hypothesis, without the 
slightest proof. Your hypothesis! Certainly not LD.
Second, I love turner (and we have been lucky in 
having several exhibitions of his works recently) 
and would not take the risk of spoiling them with 
comparisons that have no relation.
You accuse (not sure that is the correct word) 
others of writing and painting after the fact, but 
all you say is about things that happened a long 
time ago, so after the fact. Is that not a vicious 
circle?
B.R.
Marc

Le 27/10/10 20:00, Bruce Redwine a ?crit :
> Grove,
>
> Someone should do the kind of legwork you suggest. The results would be
> interesting, but I'm not sure it would solve the problem. Is there a way
> to know the clarity of light and air at that particularly "dawn?"
> /Bitter Lemons/ opens very deceptively. It gives the impression that
> Durrell is recording his thoughts as he leaves Venice for Cyprus. The
> reader is made to feel as though he is actually inside the author's head
> at the moment of departure. Which is confirmed by the statement, "These
> thoughts belong to Venice at dawn" (p. 15). After the reader accepts
> that, he sees as Durrell sees. But Durrell wrote his book much later, on
> Cyprus. He was not a /plein air/ author, just as Turner was not a /plein
> air/ painter. Turner made his sketches in Venice and took them back to
> London where he recreated the scenes and turned them into watercolors. I
> see Durrell doing something similar, albeit his imagination owes a debt
> to Turner. And we know Durrell greatly admired the painter. MacNiven in
> his biogoraphy says Durrell "developed a passion for Turner's
> landscapes" (p. 86).
>
> Yes, Turner and Canaletto both produce representations of reality. No,
> that they are equivalent. Canaletto's paintings are realistic; they
> could be touched-up photographs. Turners watercolors are not; they open
> up a new way of seeing things. Ask yourself, where are you when viewing
> a Canaletto landscape? In Venice, of course. A prettified Venice, but
> Venice without a doubt. And where are you when seeing a Turner? I see
> myself inside the strange landscape of the painter's wild imagination,
> which remotely corresponds to Venice. Durrell also does this, which is
> what I mean by reworking things.
>
> At a museum in Venice, I bought a book on Turner and Venice: /Venice:
> Turner's Watercolours/ (Paris, Biblioth?que de l'Image, 2009?).
> Alongside Turner's paintings are descriptive excerpts from various
> authors: Barr?s, Suar?s, Mann, Ruskin, James, Proust, Stendhal, etc.
> None of these quotations capture the spirit of Turner's Venetian art as
> well as Durrell does at the beginning of /Bitter Lemons./ Unfortunately,
> LD is not included. I recommend the book. Marc, you should get it.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 27, 2010, at 7:32 AM, gkoger at mindspring.com
> <mailto:gkoger at mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> Rather than speculate further, why not check guidebooks/timetables for
>> the period? If we knew with some certainty what time Durrell's ship
>> was scheduled to sail, we might have a better chance of judging the
>> degree and nature of his imprecision.
>>
>> I'd like to stress again that Turner's paintings of Venice are no more
>> reinterpretations of reality than Canaletto's. Or am I misinterpreting
>> your point?
>>
>> Grove
>>
>>     -----Original Message-----
>>     From: Bruce Redwine
>>     Sent: Oct 26, 2010 12:08 PM
>>     To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>     Cc: Bruce Redwine
>>     Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
>>
>>     Billy,
>>
>>     I basically agree ? that Durrell is entitled to imprecision. But
>>     as I prefaced my notes, I'm interested in Durrell's imaginative
>>     process, and by that I mean both the context and the workings of
>>     his imagination or "inner eye," as he calls it.
>>
>>     Re context, it seems fairly clear to me that Durrell couldn't have
>>     possibly seen the Venice he describes on p. 15 of /Bitter Lemons./
>>     That beautiful description is a recreation, a reinterpretation of
>>     reality, much like Turner's watercolors of the city (which may
>>     have been the inspiration of Durrell's /ekphrasis)./ Is this an
>>     "unusual instance?" I'm beginning to think not. Durrell invented a
>>     lot, and he wasn't particularly choosy about how he went about
>>     doing it. Take the inverted-mirage image of Alexandria in
>>     /Balthazar/ ("We saw, inverted in the sky, a full-scale mirage of
>>     the city" [p. 16]). As Bill Godshalk has shown, Durrell lifted
>>     (without, by the way, any hint of attribution) that entire passage
>>     from R. Talbot Kelly's /Egypt: Painted and Described /(1903).
>>
>>     Re workings, Dr. Anthony Durrell, a psychiatrist, has pointed out
>>     to me that LD may have had a form of synesthesia, which could have
>>     contributed to his unusual use of language, such as the confusion
>>     of sight and sound. Hence, the mixed metaphors. I'm also reminded
>>     of Claude Monet's paintings of his garden at Giverny ? where water
>>     and flora blend together ? that stunning use of light and color
>>     has been attributed to the painter's failing eyesight.
>>
>>     So Lawrence Durrell may have been diseased, and that "sickness"
>>     may have fed his literary genius. This is not in the least a new
>>     idea. It is one of Thomas Mann's major themes and appears in his
>>     great novella, /Death in Venice./ Art as disease, artist as sick
>>     person. Which takes us back to the Venice of Turner and possibly
>>     Ruskin. In my opinion, however, L. Durrell surpasses J. Ruskin as
>>     an interpreter of Turner.
>>
>>
>>     Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     On Oct 26, 2010, at 8:26 AM, William Apt wrote:
>>
>>>     Bruce:
>>>     So an unusual instance of Durrell being less than precise? But
>>>     doesn't Thoreau at the conclusion of /Walden/ evoke the glory of
>>>     sunlit morning by use of of the word "dawn"? /i.e/, "There is
>>>     more to day than dawn. The sun is but a morning star".
>>>     Billy
>>>
>>>     On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Bruce Redwine
>>>     <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>>
>>>     wrote:
>>>
>>>         Billy,
>>>
>>>         Where is Durrell standing on a ship "at dawn," as he looks
>>>         out at Venice? Probably on the stern or the port side,
>>>         assuming he's still in the lagoon in front of San Marco.
>>>         That's the classic view. In any event, faint sunlight is at
>>>         Durrell's back. "Dawn" means the light before sunrise. It's
>>>         by definition shadowy, indistinct. So, the city would have
>>>         still been in shadows, and I don't see how it could have been
>>>         illuminated enough for him to see "a thousand fresh-water
>>>         reflections." He's imagining all that ? "seeing things," if
>>>         you will, with Turner's "demented" eye. All of which is
>>>         perfectly legitimate for someone who is a poet and invents
>>>         his own reality. That's why I read him.
>>>
>>>
>>>         Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         On Oct 25, 2010, at 10:27 AM, William Apt wrote:
>>>
>>>>         Bruce:
>>>>         If the sun is rising on the ship that carries him to Cyprus,
>>>>         it rises at the front, not the back, of the ship; and the
>>>>         light cast would illumine the city, not put it in shadow. Right?
>>>>         BILLY
>>>>
>>>>         On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Bruce Redwine
>>>>         <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
>>>>         <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>             I just returned from a trip to Italy, which included
>>>>             five days in Venice. My first visit to /la Serenissima.
>>>>             /Here are some notes, in a Durrellian context. I'm
>>>>             interested in the way Durrell's imagination works and
>>>>             how its responds to reality.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             Early morning walk to Piazza San Marco. Clear day.
>>>>             Everything sharply defined. Note the difference in
>>>>             depictions of Venice. The 18th century paintings of the
>>>>             city have blue skies, towering white cumulous clouds,
>>>>             and green lagoon. True to light and eye. Contrast this
>>>>             genre with Turner?s (1830s), Whistler?s (1870s-80s), and
>>>>             Sargent?s (1900s) paintings of a misty, watery
>>>>             atmosphere, the city dissolving in a haze. Turner must
>>>>             have started this way of seeing the city.
>>>>
>>>>             Luchino Visconti opens his film version of /Death in
>>>>             Venice/ (1971) with this crepuscular view, enhanced by
>>>>             Mahler?s background music. (This is Visconti's
>>>>             interpretation of Thomas Mann, who does not describe
>>>>             Venice in this manner.) Lawrence Durrell, at the
>>>>             beginning of /Bitter Lemons /(1957), verbalizes this
>>>>             19th century trend: ?These thoughts belong to Venice at
>>>>             dawn, seen from the deck of the ship which is to carry
>>>>             me through the islands to Cyprus; a Venice wobbling in a
>>>>             thousand fresh-water reflections, cool as jelly. It was
>>>>             as if some great master, stricken by dementia, had burst
>>>>             his whole colour-box against the sky to deafen the inner
>>>>             eye of the world. Cloud and water mixed into each other,
>>>>             dripping with colours, merging, overlapping, liquefying,
>>>>             with steeples and balconies and roofs floating in space,
>>>>             like the fragments of some stained-glass window seen
>>>>             through a dozen veils of rice-paper. Fragments of
>>>>             history touched with the colours of wine, tar, ochre,
>>>>             blood, fire-opal and ripening grain. The whole at the
>>>>             same time being rinsed softly back at the edges into a
>>>>             dawn sky as softly as circumspectly blue as a pigeon?s
>>>>             egg? (p. 15).
>>>>
>>>>             This is Venice at dawn? Where the sun rises behind
>>>>             Durrell?s ship, and the city must be in shadow? A
>>>>             beautiful description, but I doubt the city looks like
>>>>             this at sunrise. Durrell?s Venice derives from his
>>>>             ?inner eye of the world,? that is, his imagination,
>>>>             which seems greatly indebted to ?fragments of history,?
>>>>             namely, the visual tradition of Turner, Sargent, and
>>>>             Whistler.
>>>>
>>>>             Note Durrell's mixed metaphors: ?great master,? a
>>>>             painter, who is demented, who colors the sky, who also
>>>>             ?deafens? the ?inner eye.? You might say this is
>>>>             intentional: mixing the senses of sight and hearing to
>>>>             achieve a literary effect equivalent to Turner?s
>>>>             watercolors. Possibly. But I wonder if this is just
>>>>             sloppy thinking and writing. Many such instances in
>>>>             Durrell?s oeuvre.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             Bruce
>>>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Wed Oct 27 14:26:52 2010
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 23:26:52 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
In-Reply-To: <9EC4CE07-DECB-432D-A045-5F17C97DD83B@earthlink.net>
References: <31243258.1288189944748.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<9EC4CE07-DECB-432D-A045-5F17C97DD83B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4CC8991C.30006@interdesign.fr>

NB:
May I also suggest that you look at lithoghaps of 
Venice by Andr? Masson a real surealist.
Marc

Le 27/10/10 20:00, Bruce Redwine a ?crit :
> Grove,
>
> Someone should do the kind of legwork you suggest. The results would be
> interesting, but I'm not sure it would solve the problem. Is there a way
> to know the clarity of light and air at that particularly "dawn?"
> /Bitter Lemons/ opens very deceptively. It gives the impression that
> Durrell is recording his thoughts as he leaves Venice for Cyprus. The
> reader is made to feel as though he is actually inside the author's head
> at the moment of departure. Which is confirmed by the statement, "These
> thoughts belong to Venice at dawn" (p. 15). After the reader accepts
> that, he sees as Durrell sees. But Durrell wrote his book much later, on
> Cyprus. He was not a /plein air/ author, just as Turner was not a /plein
> air/ painter. Turner made his sketches in Venice and took them back to
> London where he recreated the scenes and turned them into watercolors. I
> see Durrell doing something similar, albeit his imagination owes a debt
> to Turner. And we know Durrell greatly admired the painter. MacNiven in
> his biogoraphy says Durrell "developed a passion for Turner's
> landscapes" (p. 86).
>
> Yes, Turner and Canaletto both produce representations of reality. No,
> that they are equivalent. Canaletto's paintings are realistic; they
> could be touched-up photographs. Turners watercolors are not; they open
> up a new way of seeing things. Ask yourself, where are you when viewing
> a Canaletto landscape? In Venice, of course. A prettified Venice, but
> Venice without a doubt. And where are you when seeing a Turner? I see
> myself inside the strange landscape of the painter's wild imagination,
> which remotely corresponds to Venice. Durrell also does this, which is
> what I mean by reworking things.
>
> At a museum in Venice, I bought a book on Turner and Venice: /Venice:
> Turner's Watercolours/ (Paris, Biblioth?que de l'Image, 2009?).
> Alongside Turner's paintings are descriptive excerpts from various
> authors: Barr?s, Suar?s, Mann, Ruskin, James, Proust, Stendhal, etc.
> None of these quotations capture the spirit of Turner's Venetian art as
> well as Durrell does at the beginning of /Bitter Lemons./ Unfortunately,
> LD is not included. I recommend the book. Marc, you should get it.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 27, 2010, at 7:32 AM, gkoger at mindspring.com
> <mailto:gkoger at mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> Rather than speculate further, why not check guidebooks/timetables for
>> the period? If we knew with some certainty what time Durrell's ship
>> was scheduled to sail, we might have a better chance of judging the
>> degree and nature of his imprecision.
>>
>> I'd like to stress again that Turner's paintings of Venice are no more
>> reinterpretations of reality than Canaletto's. Or am I misinterpreting
>> your point?
>>
>> Grove
>>
>>     -----Original Message-----
>>     From: Bruce Redwine
>>     Sent: Oct 26, 2010 12:08 PM
>>     To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>     Cc: Bruce Redwine
>>     Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
>>
>>     Billy,
>>
>>     I basically agree ? that Durrell is entitled to imprecision. But
>>     as I prefaced my notes, I'm interested in Durrell's imaginative
>>     process, and by that I mean both the context and the workings of
>>     his imagination or "inner eye," as he calls it.
>>
>>     Re context, it seems fairly clear to me that Durrell couldn't have
>>     possibly seen the Venice he describes on p. 15 of /Bitter Lemons./
>>     That beautiful description is a recreation, a reinterpretation of
>>     reality, much like Turner's watercolors of the city (which may
>>     have been the inspiration of Durrell's /ekphrasis)./ Is this an
>>     "unusual instance?" I'm beginning to think not. Durrell invented a
>>     lot, and he wasn't particularly choosy about how he went about
>>     doing it. Take the inverted-mirage image of Alexandria in
>>     /Balthazar/ ("We saw, inverted in the sky, a full-scale mirage of
>>     the city" [p. 16]). As Bill Godshalk has shown, Durrell lifted
>>     (without, by the way, any hint of attribution) that entire passage
>>     from R. Talbot Kelly's /Egypt: Painted and Described /(1903).
>>
>>     Re workings, Dr. Anthony Durrell, a psychiatrist, has pointed out
>>     to me that LD may have had a form of synesthesia, which could have
>>     contributed to his unusual use of language, such as the confusion
>>     of sight and sound. Hence, the mixed metaphors. I'm also reminded
>>     of Claude Monet's paintings of his garden at Giverny ? where water
>>     and flora blend together ? that stunning use of light and color
>>     has been attributed to the painter's failing eyesight.
>>
>>     So Lawrence Durrell may have been diseased, and that "sickness"
>>     may have fed his literary genius. This is not in the least a new
>>     idea. It is one of Thomas Mann's major themes and appears in his
>>     great novella, /Death in Venice./ Art as disease, artist as sick
>>     person. Which takes us back to the Venice of Turner and possibly
>>     Ruskin. In my opinion, however, L. Durrell surpasses J. Ruskin as
>>     an interpreter of Turner.
>>
>>
>>     Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     On Oct 26, 2010, at 8:26 AM, William Apt wrote:
>>
>>>     Bruce:
>>>     So an unusual instance of Durrell being less than precise? But
>>>     doesn't Thoreau at the conclusion of /Walden/ evoke the glory of
>>>     sunlit morning by use of of the word "dawn"? /i.e/, "There is
>>>     more to day than dawn. The sun is but a morning star".
>>>     Billy
>>>
>>>     On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Bruce Redwine
>>>     <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>>
>>>     wrote:
>>>
>>>         Billy,
>>>
>>>         Where is Durrell standing on a ship "at dawn," as he looks
>>>         out at Venice? Probably on the stern or the port side,
>>>         assuming he's still in the lagoon in front of San Marco.
>>>         That's the classic view. In any event, faint sunlight is at
>>>         Durrell's back. "Dawn" means the light before sunrise. It's
>>>         by definition shadowy, indistinct. So, the city would have
>>>         still been in shadows, and I don't see how it could have been
>>>         illuminated enough for him to see "a thousand fresh-water
>>>         reflections." He's imagining all that ? "seeing things," if
>>>         you will, with Turner's "demented" eye. All of which is
>>>         perfectly legitimate for someone who is a poet and invents
>>>         his own reality. That's why I read him.
>>>
>>>
>>>         Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         On Oct 25, 2010, at 10:27 AM, William Apt wrote:
>>>
>>>>         Bruce:
>>>>         If the sun is rising on the ship that carries him to Cyprus,
>>>>         it rises at the front, not the back, of the ship; and the
>>>>         light cast would illumine the city, not put it in shadow. Right?
>>>>         BILLY
>>>>
>>>>         On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Bruce Redwine
>>>>         <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
>>>>         <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>             I just returned from a trip to Italy, which included
>>>>             five days in Venice. My first visit to /la Serenissima.
>>>>             /Here are some notes, in a Durrellian context. I'm
>>>>             interested in the way Durrell's imagination works and
>>>>             how its responds to reality.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             Early morning walk to Piazza San Marco. Clear day.
>>>>             Everything sharply defined. Note the difference in
>>>>             depictions of Venice. The 18th century paintings of the
>>>>             city have blue skies, towering white cumulous clouds,
>>>>             and green lagoon. True to light and eye. Contrast this
>>>>             genre with Turner?s (1830s), Whistler?s (1870s-80s), and
>>>>             Sargent?s (1900s) paintings of a misty, watery
>>>>             atmosphere, the city dissolving in a haze. Turner must
>>>>             have started this way of seeing the city.
>>>>
>>>>             Luchino Visconti opens his film version of /Death in
>>>>             Venice/ (1971) with this crepuscular view, enhanced by
>>>>             Mahler?s background music. (This is Visconti's
>>>>             interpretation of Thomas Mann, who does not describe
>>>>             Venice in this manner.) Lawrence Durrell, at the
>>>>             beginning of /Bitter Lemons /(1957), verbalizes this
>>>>             19th century trend: ?These thoughts belong to Venice at
>>>>             dawn, seen from the deck of the ship which is to carry
>>>>             me through the islands to Cyprus; a Venice wobbling in a
>>>>             thousand fresh-water reflections, cool as jelly. It was
>>>>             as if some great master, stricken by dementia, had burst
>>>>             his whole colour-box against the sky to deafen the inner
>>>>             eye of the world. Cloud and water mixed into each other,
>>>>             dripping with colours, merging, overlapping, liquefying,
>>>>             with steeples and balconies and roofs floating in space,
>>>>             like the fragments of some stained-glass window seen
>>>>             through a dozen veils of rice-paper. Fragments of
>>>>             history touched with the colours of wine, tar, ochre,
>>>>             blood, fire-opal and ripening grain. The whole at the
>>>>             same time being rinsed softly back at the edges into a
>>>>             dawn sky as softly as circumspectly blue as a pigeon?s
>>>>             egg? (p. 15).
>>>>
>>>>             This is Venice at dawn? Where the sun rises behind
>>>>             Durrell?s ship, and the city must be in shadow? A
>>>>             beautiful description, but I doubt the city looks like
>>>>             this at sunrise. Durrell?s Venice derives from his
>>>>             ?inner eye of the world,? that is, his imagination,
>>>>             which seems greatly indebted to ?fragments of history,?
>>>>             namely, the visual tradition of Turner, Sargent, and
>>>>             Whistler.
>>>>
>>>>             Note Durrell's mixed metaphors: ?great master,? a
>>>>             painter, who is demented, who colors the sky, who also
>>>>             ?deafens? the ?inner eye.? You might say this is
>>>>             intentional: mixing the senses of sight and hearing to
>>>>             achieve a literary effect equivalent to Turner?s
>>>>             watercolors. Possibly. But I wonder if this is just
>>>>             sloppy thinking and writing. Many such instances in
>>>>             Durrell?s oeuvre.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             Bruce
>>>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Wed Oct 27 14:39:24 2010
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 23:39:24 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Durrell and the uses of sexuality
In-Reply-To: <4CC87499.6040008@utc.edu>
References: <4CC87499.6040008@utc.edu>
Message-ID: <4CC89C0C.8010609@interdesign.fr>

Charles,
I am surprised that you post such a flat editorial 
on LD and the AQ. It seems to me obvious that the 
author is from a Culture that cannot understand 
either.
Glad to see you back on the postings. Hope you had 
a good holiday.
B.R.
Marc

Le 27/10/10 20:51, Charles Sligh a ?crit :
>    A Sri Lankan editorial on Durrell and his legacy:
>
> Lawrence Durrell and the uses of sexuality
> <http://www.island.lk/index.php?page_cat=article-details&page=article-details&code_title=9918>
> October 27, 2010, 6:12 pm
> Rajiva Wijesinha
>
> --
> ********************************************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> charles-sligh at utc.edu  <mailto:charles-sligh at utc.edu>
> ********************************************
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Wed Oct 27 14:41:41 2010
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 23:41:41 +0200
Subject: [ilds] the drunken writer
In-Reply-To: <AEFB66BDDA664C2F9D3799D1E220D686@DenisePC>
References: <AEFB66BDDA664C2F9D3799D1E220D686@DenisePC>
Message-ID: <4CC89C95.3080602@interdesign.fr>

Surely being a "pisshead" doesn't make anyone a 
great writer. Not even of posts on this list.
Marc

Le 27/10/10 22:11, Denise Tart & David Green a ?crit :
>
> More likely,
> the daily drive to write endures, inspite of 'chardonney infusions'.
> Certainly true in the case of many artists - Hemmingway, Bukowski,
> Durrell to name a few. But it drove them as well. Hemmingway talked
> about keeping the motor running, Durrell about creating 'creative
> madness' while Bukowski said 'stick to beer and keep tapping the keys'.
> It's more than a stereotype. many great people are driven by addictions
> of some sort - many people in fact. But when I think about most the
> writers I like they are all piss heads. coincidence?
> David Whitewine
> 16 William Street
> Marrickville NSW 2204
> + 61 2 9564 6`65
> 0412 707 625
> www.denisetart.com.au <http://www.denisetart.com.au>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From james.d.gifford at gmail.com  Wed Oct 27 15:06:09 2010
From: james.d.gifford at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 15:06:09 -0700
Subject: [ilds] the drunken writer
In-Reply-To: <4CC89C95.3080602@interdesign.fr>
References: <AEFB66BDDA664C2F9D3799D1E220D686@DenisePC>
	<4CC89C95.3080602@interdesign.fr>
Message-ID: <4CC8A251.7010106@gmail.com>

 > Surely being a "pisshead" doesn't make anyone a
 > great writer. Not even of posts on this list.

I think the turn is a bit different.  Drink or addictions surely never 
made anyone great in any regard, but they may be symptoms of a like 
disorder, such as that which Durrell finds in his poem "Blind Homer":

   Exchange a glance with one whose art
   Conspires with introspection against loneliness

   This February 1946, pulse normal, nerves at rest:
   Heir to a like disorder, ...

Perhaps what Bruce & David are trying to say is that the struggle with 
addiction shares an origin in the struggles that make themselves visible 
in art.  Would that be a meeting point with Gisela's comments?

This would, I should think, be close to Otto Rank's view of art, and 
Durrell was well read in that.  Art is a symptom of the illness of the 
artist, and addictions might be other manifestations -- obviously one is 
more productive and healthy than the other...

Best,
James

On 27/10/10 2:41 PM, Marc Piel wrote:
> Surely being a "pisshead" doesn't make anyone a
> great writer. Not even of posts on this list.
> Marc

From james.d.gifford at gmail.com  Wed Oct 27 15:00:09 2010
From: james.d.gifford at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 15:00:09 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Durrell and the uses of sexuality
In-Reply-To: <4CC89C0C.8010609@interdesign.fr>
References: <4CC87499.6040008@utc.edu> <4CC89C0C.8010609@interdesign.fr>
Message-ID: <4CC8A0E9.4040805@gmail.com>

Hi Marc,

I actually rather liked it -- it has a very specific audience in mind 
and a set purpose, but within those parameters, I should think the 
author did a rather good job.  His perspective on the Quartet seems to 
orient toward the political and colonial, but that seems fair enough... 
  The French may have a different response to the book, but that's also 
fair enough.  The book seems big enough to manage both views.

That said, the title "uses of sexuality" seems like a hook pure & 
simple.  I wanted to hear more about those Olympia editions!  I'm 
particularly fond of the obelisk on the spine -- makes me wonder what 
I'm palming...  Graphic designers do wreak their revenges.

Best,
James

On 27/10/10 2:39 PM, Marc Piel wrote:
> Charles,
> I am surprised that you post such a flat editorial
> on LD and the AQ. It seems to me obvious that the
> author is from a Culture that cannot understand
> either.
> Glad to see you back on the postings. Hope you had
> a good holiday.
> B.R.
> Marc
>
> Le 27/10/10 20:51, Charles Sligh a ?crit :
>>     A Sri Lankan editorial on Durrell and his legacy:
>>
>> Lawrence Durrell and the uses of sexuality
>> <http://www.island.lk/index.php?page_cat=article-details&page=article-details&code_title=9918>
>> October 27, 2010, 6:12 pm
>> Rajiva Wijesinha
>>
>> --
>> ********************************************
>> Charles L. Sligh
>> Assistant Professor
>> Department of English
>> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
>> charles-sligh at utc.edu<mailto:charles-sligh at utc.edu>
>> ********************************************
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 27 16:20:46 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:20:46 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
In-Reply-To: <4CC89813.5060002@interdesign.fr>
References: <31243258.1288189944748.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<9EC4CE07-DECB-432D-A045-5F17C97DD83B@earthlink.net>
	<4CC89813.5060002@interdesign.fr>
Message-ID: <3069FF43-A3D9-44AD-B0D2-0A582338F510@earthlink.net>

Marc,

I suggest you check out the Turner book, if only for the pleasure of disagreeing with your fellow countrymen.


Bruce



On Oct 27, 2010, at 2:22 PM, Marc Piel wrote:

> Bruce,
> From what you have said, I would never buy that book!
> Firstly I disagree with you in your arguments that 
> don't hold up.
> What you advance are hypothesis, without the 
> slightest proof. Your hypothesis! Certainly not LD.
> Second, I love turner (and we have been lucky in 
> having several exhibitions of his works recently) 
> and would not take the risk of spoiling them with 
> comparisons that have no relation.
> You accuse (not sure that is the correct word) 
> others of writing and painting after the fact, but 
> all you say is about things that happened a long 
> time ago, so after the fact. Is that not a vicious 
> circle?
> B.R.
> Marc
> 
> Le 27/10/10 20:00, Bruce Redwine a ?crit :
>> Grove,
>> 
>> Someone should do the kind of legwork you suggest. The results would be
>> interesting, but I'm not sure it would solve the problem. Is there a way
>> to know the clarity of light and air at that particularly "dawn?"
>> /Bitter Lemons/ opens very deceptively. It gives the impression that
>> Durrell is recording his thoughts as he leaves Venice for Cyprus. The
>> reader is made to feel as though he is actually inside the author's head
>> at the moment of departure. Which is confirmed by the statement, "These
>> thoughts belong to Venice at dawn" (p. 15). After the reader accepts
>> that, he sees as Durrell sees. But Durrell wrote his book much later, on
>> Cyprus. He was not a /plein air/ author, just as Turner was not a /plein
>> air/ painter. Turner made his sketches in Venice and took them back to
>> London where he recreated the scenes and turned them into watercolors. I
>> see Durrell doing something similar, albeit his imagination owes a debt
>> to Turner. And we know Durrell greatly admired the painter. MacNiven in
>> his biogoraphy says Durrell "developed a passion for Turner's
>> landscapes" (p. 86).
>> 
>> Yes, Turner and Canaletto both produce representations of reality. No,
>> that they are equivalent. Canaletto's paintings are realistic; they
>> could be touched-up photographs. Turners watercolors are not; they open
>> up a new way of seeing things. Ask yourself, where are you when viewing
>> a Canaletto landscape? In Venice, of course. A prettified Venice, but
>> Venice without a doubt. And where are you when seeing a Turner? I see
>> myself inside the strange landscape of the painter's wild imagination,
>> which remotely corresponds to Venice. Durrell also does this, which is
>> what I mean by reworking things.
>> 
>> At a museum in Venice, I bought a book on Turner and Venice: /Venice:
>> Turner's Watercolours/ (Paris, Biblioth?que de l'Image, 2009?).
>> Alongside Turner's paintings are descriptive excerpts from various
>> authors: Barr?s, Suar?s, Mann, Ruskin, James, Proust, Stendhal, etc.
>> None of these quotations capture the spirit of Turner's Venetian art as
>> well as Durrell does at the beginning of /Bitter Lemons./ Unfortunately,
>> LD is not included. I recommend the book. Marc, you should get it.
>> 
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 27, 2010, at 7:32 AM, gkoger at mindspring.com
>> <mailto:gkoger at mindspring.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Bruce,
>>> 
>>> Rather than speculate further, why not check guidebooks/timetables for
>>> the period? If we knew with some certainty what time Durrell's ship
>>> was scheduled to sail, we might have a better chance of judging the
>>> degree and nature of his imprecision.
>>> 
>>> I'd like to stress again that Turner's paintings of Venice are no more
>>> reinterpretations of reality than Canaletto's. Or am I misinterpreting
>>> your point?
>>> 
>>> Grove
>>> 
>>>    -----Original Message-----
>>>    From: Bruce Redwine
>>>    Sent: Oct 26, 2010 12:08 PM
>>>    To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>>    Cc: Bruce Redwine
>>>    Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell in Venice
>>> 
>>>    Billy,
>>> 
>>>    I basically agree ? that Durrell is entitled to imprecision. But
>>>    as I prefaced my notes, I'm interested in Durrell's imaginative
>>>    process, and by that I mean both the context and the workings of
>>>    his imagination or "inner eye," as he calls it.
>>> 
>>>    Re context, it seems fairly clear to me that Durrell couldn't have
>>>    possibly seen the Venice he describes on p. 15 of /Bitter Lemons./
>>>    That beautiful description is a recreation, a reinterpretation of
>>>    reality, much like Turner's watercolors of the city (which may
>>>    have been the inspiration of Durrell's /ekphrasis)./ Is this an
>>>    "unusual instance?" I'm beginning to think not. Durrell invented a
>>>    lot, and he wasn't particularly choosy about how he went about
>>>    doing it. Take the inverted-mirage image of Alexandria in
>>>    /Balthazar/ ("We saw, inverted in the sky, a full-scale mirage of
>>>    the city" [p. 16]). As Bill Godshalk has shown, Durrell lifted
>>>    (without, by the way, any hint of attribution) that entire passage
>>>    from R. Talbot Kelly's /Egypt: Painted and Described /(1903).
>>> 
>>>    Re workings, Dr. Anthony Durrell, a psychiatrist, has pointed out
>>>    to me that LD may have had a form of synesthesia, which could have
>>>    contributed to his unusual use of language, such as the confusion
>>>    of sight and sound. Hence, the mixed metaphors. I'm also reminded
>>>    of Claude Monet's paintings of his garden at Giverny ? where water
>>>    and flora blend together ? that stunning use of light and color
>>>    has been attributed to the painter's failing eyesight.
>>> 
>>>    So Lawrence Durrell may have been diseased, and that "sickness"
>>>    may have fed his literary genius. This is not in the least a new
>>>    idea. It is one of Thomas Mann's major themes and appears in his
>>>    great novella, /Death in Venice./ Art as disease, artist as sick
>>>    person. Which takes us back to the Venice of Turner and possibly
>>>    Ruskin. In my opinion, however, L. Durrell surpasses J. Ruskin as
>>>    an interpreter of Turner.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>    Bruce
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>    On Oct 26, 2010, at 8:26 AM, William Apt wrote:
>>> 
>>>>    Bruce:
>>>>    So an unusual instance of Durrell being less than precise? But
>>>>    doesn't Thoreau at the conclusion of /Walden/ evoke the glory of
>>>>    sunlit morning by use of of the word "dawn"? /i.e/, "There is
>>>>    more to day than dawn. The sun is but a morning star".
>>>>    Billy
>>>> 
>>>>    On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Bruce Redwine
>>>>    <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>>
>>>>    wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>        Billy,
>>>> 
>>>>        Where is Durrell standing on a ship "at dawn," as he looks
>>>>        out at Venice? Probably on the stern or the port side,
>>>>        assuming he's still in the lagoon in front of San Marco.
>>>>        That's the classic view. In any event, faint sunlight is at
>>>>        Durrell's back. "Dawn" means the light before sunrise. It's
>>>>        by definition shadowy, indistinct. So, the city would have
>>>>        still been in shadows, and I don't see how it could have been
>>>>        illuminated enough for him to see "a thousand fresh-water
>>>>        reflections." He's imagining all that ? "seeing things," if
>>>>        you will, with Turner's "demented" eye. All of which is
>>>>        perfectly legitimate for someone who is a poet and invents
>>>>        his own reality. That's why I read him.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>        Bruce
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>        On Oct 25, 2010, at 10:27 AM, William Apt wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>        Bruce:
>>>>>        If the sun is rising on the ship that carries him to Cyprus,
>>>>>        it rises at the front, not the back, of the ship; and the
>>>>>        light cast would illumine the city, not put it in shadow. Right?
>>>>>        BILLY
>>>>> 
>>>>>        On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Bruce Redwine
>>>>>        <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
>>>>>        <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>            I just returned from a trip to Italy, which included
>>>>>            five days in Venice. My first visit to /la Serenissima.
>>>>>            /Here are some notes, in a Durrellian context. I'm
>>>>>            interested in the way Durrell's imagination works and
>>>>>            how its responds to reality.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>            Early morning walk to Piazza San Marco. Clear day.
>>>>>            Everything sharply defined. Note the difference in
>>>>>            depictions of Venice. The 18th century paintings of the
>>>>>            city have blue skies, towering white cumulous clouds,
>>>>>            and green lagoon. True to light and eye. Contrast this
>>>>>            genre with Turner?s (1830s), Whistler?s (1870s-80s), and
>>>>>            Sargent?s (1900s) paintings of a misty, watery
>>>>>            atmosphere, the city dissolving in a haze. Turner must
>>>>>            have started this way of seeing the city.
>>>>> 
>>>>>            Luchino Visconti opens his film version of /Death in
>>>>>            Venice/ (1971) with this crepuscular view, enhanced by
>>>>>            Mahler?s background music. (This is Visconti's
>>>>>            interpretation of Thomas Mann, who does not describe
>>>>>            Venice in this manner.) Lawrence Durrell, at the
>>>>>            beginning of /Bitter Lemons /(1957), verbalizes this
>>>>>            19th century trend: ?These thoughts belong to Venice at
>>>>>            dawn, seen from the deck of the ship which is to carry
>>>>>            me through the islands to Cyprus; a Venice wobbling in a
>>>>>            thousand fresh-water reflections, cool as jelly. It was
>>>>>            as if some great master, stricken by dementia, had burst
>>>>>            his whole colour-box against the sky to deafen the inner
>>>>>            eye of the world. Cloud and water mixed into each other,
>>>>>            dripping with colours, merging, overlapping, liquefying,
>>>>>            with steeples and balconies and roofs floating in space,
>>>>>            like the fragments of some stained-glass window seen
>>>>>            through a dozen veils of rice-paper. Fragments of
>>>>>            history touched with the colours of wine, tar, ochre,
>>>>>            blood, fire-opal and ripening grain. The whole at the
>>>>>            same time being rinsed softly back at the edges into a
>>>>>            dawn sky as softly as circumspectly blue as a pigeon?s
>>>>>            egg? (p. 15).
>>>>> 
>>>>>            This is Venice at dawn? Where the sun rises behind
>>>>>            Durrell?s ship, and the city must be in shadow? A
>>>>>            beautiful description, but I doubt the city looks like
>>>>>            this at sunrise. Durrell?s Venice derives from his
>>>>>            ?inner eye of the world,? that is, his imagination,
>>>>>            which seems greatly indebted to ?fragments of history,?
>>>>>            namely, the visual tradition of Turner, Sargent, and
>>>>>            Whistler.
>>>>> 
>>>>>            Note Durrell's mixed metaphors: ?great master,? a
>>>>>            painter, who is demented, who colors the sky, who also
>>>>>            ?deafens? the ?inner eye.? You might say this is
>>>>>            intentional: mixing the senses of sight and hearing to
>>>>>            achieve a literary effect equivalent to Turner?s
>>>>>            watercolors. Possibly. But I wonder if this is just
>>>>>            sloppy thinking and writing. Many such instances in
>>>>>            Durrell?s oeuvre.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>            Bruce
>>>>> 

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From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Wed Oct 27 16:53:18 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:53:18 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DA@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

 _The last will and testament of Lawrence Lucifer_  has been attributed to Thomas Middleton. Did Durrell know this? I suppose D did know, but Google will no confirm it for me.

Bill



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 27 18:15:12 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:15:12 -0700
Subject: [ilds] the drunken writer
In-Reply-To: <4CC8A251.7010106@gmail.com>
References: <AEFB66BDDA664C2F9D3799D1E220D686@DenisePC>
	<4CC89C95.3080602@interdesign.fr> <4CC8A251.7010106@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <14265D4D-9AF6-4A4F-B298-DD7E2CF7E4BC@earthlink.net>

Some years back a scholar wrote a book on alcoholism and American letters.  Anyone know the author and title?  The number of American alcoholics is staggering:  Poe, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Faulkner, O'Neill, Lewis, and others.  The Brits also have their contingent:  Thackeray, Waugh, K. Amis, Thomas, Durrell.  Dunno about the French.  Anyway, excessive drink is one of the dangers of successful authorship.  Yes, it's surely symptomatic of the angst of creativity.


BR



On Oct 27, 2010, at 3:06 PM, James Gifford wrote:

>> Surely being a "pisshead" doesn't make anyone a
>> great writer. Not even of posts on this list.
> 
> I think the turn is a bit different.  Drink or addictions surely never 
> made anyone great in any regard, but they may be symptoms of a like 
> disorder, such as that which Durrell finds in his poem "Blind Homer":
> 
>   Exchange a glance with one whose art
>   Conspires with introspection against loneliness
> 
>   This February 1946, pulse normal, nerves at rest:
>   Heir to a like disorder, ...
> 
> Perhaps what Bruce & David are trying to say is that the struggle with 
> addiction shares an origin in the struggles that make themselves visible 
> in art.  Would that be a meeting point with Gisela's comments?
> 
> This would, I should think, be close to Otto Rank's view of art, and 
> Durrell was well read in that.  Art is a symptom of the illness of the 
> artist, and addictions might be other manifestations -- obviously one is 
> more productive and healthy than the other...
> 
> Best,
> James
> 
> On 27/10/10 2:41 PM, Marc Piel wrote:
>> Surely being a "pisshead" doesn't make anyone a
>> great writer. Not even of posts on this list.
>> Marc
> 


From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Wed Oct 27 22:15:02 2010
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:15:02 +1100
Subject: [ilds] the drunken writer
In-Reply-To: <4CC89C95.3080602@interdesign.fr>
References: <AEFB66BDDA664C2F9D3799D1E220D686@DenisePC>
	<4CC89C95.3080602@interdesign.fr>
Message-ID: <67FF9A981CC5437ABAAA029F5AE538DF@DenisePC>

Surely being a "pisshead" doesn't make anyone a  great writer. Not even of 
posts on this list.
 Marc

Marc,

Piss head is an Australian and I think also English expression for someone 
who likes a drink or two or ten. . I do not know if Americans or French have 
an equivalent? it is not considered derogatory in my home land as it would 
include most of the population.

And you are correct in that being a pisshead does not make anyone a great 
writer, but some great writers are pissheads - in fact a considerable number 
are or were, Durrell included. Durrell is known to have consumed 2 or more 
litres of wine a day even while writing. Thus I am unsure of your point. As 
for my posts - they can speak for themselves

David

. 


From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Wed Oct 27 22:19:08 2010
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:19:08 +1100
Subject: [ilds] the drunken writer
In-Reply-To: <4CC8A251.7010106@gmail.com>
References: <AEFB66BDDA664C2F9D3799D1E220D686@DenisePC><4CC89C95.3080602@interdesign.fr>
	<4CC8A251.7010106@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5B74383169DC49C689AC6BE293E310AB@DenisePC>

This would, I should think, be close to Otto Rank's view of art, and
Durrell was well read in that.  Art is a symptom of the illness of the
artist, and addictions might be other manifestations -- obviously one is
more productive and healthy than the other...

Touche James. Could not have said it better myself - but then I am not much 
of a writer.

David Mineral Water
 


From james.d.gifford at gmail.com  Wed Oct 27 22:23:32 2010
From: james.d.gifford at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 22:23:32 -0700
Subject: [ilds] the drunken writer
In-Reply-To: <5B74383169DC49C689AC6BE293E310AB@DenisePC>
References: <AEFB66BDDA664C2F9D3799D1E220D686@DenisePC><4CC89C95.3080602@interdesign.fr>	<4CC8A251.7010106@gmail.com>
	<5B74383169DC49C689AC6BE293E310AB@DenisePC>
Message-ID: <4CC908D4.3060500@gmail.com>

Ah, David, you make me regret my dry name...  If only I could be blessed 
as you and our eucharistic friend are with creative nomenclature.

As for writing style, I'm marking paper right now -- don't count 
yourself out.  I enjoy reading your posts!  Back to the less enjoyable. 
  I've foolishly stacked the fine papers on top and now have to dig to 
the bottom while keeping up a good mood for the unfortunate few at the 
tail end.

Best,
James

On 27/10/10 10:19 PM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote:
> This would, I should think, be close to Otto Rank's view of art, and
> Durrell was well read in that.  Art is a symptom of the illness of the
> artist, and addictions might be other manifestations -- obviously one is
> more productive and healthy than the other...
>
> Touche James. Could not have said it better myself - but then I am not much
> of a writer.
>
> David Mineral Water
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Wed Oct 27 22:23:58 2010
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:23:58 +1100
Subject: [ilds] Venice, Turner, Impressionists
In-Reply-To: <26627599741E45E4BF2BAC9451691DC6@DenisePC>
References: <2A3271B97C204CF4BEC3D4FD2DFCDA55@DenisePC><1EAE218B-4465-4822-921A-263652EE5304@execulink.com><6E6635B3-55B6-4B07-B80A-3DDC918A0CAF@execulink.com>
	<26627599741E45E4BF2BAC9451691DC6@DenisePC>
Message-ID: <6C90310F3074417EA924A2B0224D39E6@DenisePC>

Perhaps by 'Venice  mauves and purples that wobbly like jelly',
you refer to Monet's paintings of Venice (he painted in Venice, in
the fall of 1908)?

Joan,

Joan I found the painting today in the school library - The Palazzo da Mulda - this is one I associate with jelly and wobbling and coolness etc.

Cheers

David Herbal Tea
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From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Thu Oct 28 08:57:26 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 11:57:26 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

Thomas Middleton's 

? The Black Book, edited by G. B. Shand. The latest edition.





W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Godshalk, William (godshawl) [godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 7:53 PM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer

 _The last will and testament of Lawrence Lucifer_  has been attributed to Thomas Middleton. Did Durrell know this? I suppose D did know, but Google will no confirm it for me.

Bill


_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 28 07:06:41 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 07:06:41 -0700
Subject: [ilds] the drunken writer
In-Reply-To: <67FF9A981CC5437ABAAA029F5AE538DF@DenisePC>
References: <AEFB66BDDA664C2F9D3799D1E220D686@DenisePC>
	<4CC89C95.3080602@interdesign.fr>
	<67FF9A981CC5437ABAAA029F5AE538DF@DenisePC>
Message-ID: <1D01BCDC-29CD-41EA-A953-F02DA21EEA05@earthlink.net>

David,

Durrell's preferred term is "toper," a Britishism, which he uses positively.  I first recall coming across it in Bitter Lemons, e.g., "All of them [Cypriots] were lavish with their information, though, somewhat to my disappointment, none of them were topers" (p. 29).  Old LD was really hitting the bottle on Cyprus, the time of Justine and Claude, perhaps his most creative period.


Bruce



On Oct 27, 2010, at 10:15 PM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote:

> Surely being a "pisshead" doesn't make anyone a  great writer. Not even of 
> posts on this list.
> Marc
> 
> Marc,
> 
> Piss head is an Australian and I think also English expression for someone 
> who likes a drink or two or ten. . I do not know if Americans or French have 
> an equivalent? it is not considered derogatory in my home land as it would 
> include most of the population.
> 
> And you are correct in that being a pisshead does not make anyone a great 
> writer, but some great writers are pissheads - in fact a considerable number 
> are or were, Durrell included. Durrell is known to have consumed 2 or more 
> litres of wine a day even while writing. Thus I am unsure of your point. As 
> for my posts - they can speak for themselves
> 
> David
> 
> 
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 28 10:46:59 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:46:59 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>

Perhaps a more detailed explanation of the relevance of Thomas Middleton's work would be helpful?  Or is this being saved for an article?  See link below.  The edition seems a bit pricey at $199.  Assuming Middleton's Black Book is a primary source for Durrell's Black Book, other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of such an obscure work?  How and where did he get the nose of a hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?  Was LD rummaging through the bowels of the British Library, during his off-hours at the jazz piano?  Whatever got into our boy to do such strange things?


BR


/www.amazon.com/Thomas-Middleton-Collected-Works/dp/0198185693/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1288286002&sr=1-1



On Oct 28, 2010, at 8:57 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:

> Thomas Middleton's 
> 
> ? The Black Book, edited by G. B. Shand. The latest edition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English    *           *
> University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
> OH 45221-0069 *  *
> ________________________________________
> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Godshalk, William (godshawl) [godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 7:53 PM
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer
> 
> _The last will and testament of Lawrence Lucifer_  has been attributed to Thomas Middleton. Did Durrell know this? I suppose D did know, but Google will no confirm it for me.
> 
> Bill
> 
> 

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From james.d.gifford at gmail.com  Thu Oct 28 10:57:12 2010
From: james.d.gifford at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:57:12 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>

On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?

I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do... 
Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially. 
  It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form 
and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.  His essays on 
Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a 
university education.

As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local 
library does.  I'll see.

Best,
James

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 28 11:18:10 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 11:18:10 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D3866062-714F-4D4F-BDBE-2F63EEF8BFC2@earthlink.net>

Yes, you provide a good catalogue, but that doesn't explain how he acquired the interest, why he had it, or how he went about satisfying the craving.  He didn't have the usual introduction to such materials, namely, an English course in Shakespeare's contemporaries.  Hard questions to answer, no doubt, but important ones, I think.  This interest is not like collecting pin-ups, model airplanes, baseball cards, or any other such hobbies.  It assumes a fascination for esoterica and reminds me of Aleister Crowley and the occult.


BR



On Oct 28, 2010, at 10:57 AM, James Gifford wrote:

> On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
>> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
>> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?
> 
> I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do... 
> Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially. 
>  It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form 
> and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.  His essays on 
> Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a 
> university education.
> 
> As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local 
> library does.  I'll see.
> 
> Best,
> James



From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Thu Oct 28 11:35:43 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:35:43 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>,
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E0@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

Well, I did try the bibliography, and it appeared that no one had written an essay on Durrell and Middleton. I of course knew about Lawrence Lucifer,but I do wonder if D modeled his own LL on Middleton's. Judgement please.

Bill


W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of James Gifford [james.d.gifford at gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 1:57 PM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book

On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?

I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do...
Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially.
  It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form
and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.  His essays on
Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a
university education.

As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local
library does.  I'll see.

Best,
James
_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Thu Oct 28 18:12:38 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 21:12:38 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>,
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E3@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

Bruce,

Middleton's work  isn't that obscure nowadays. Gary Taylor's edition has brought attend to Middleton. 

And, more to the point, there were 19th century editions of Middleton -- our second Shakespeare. D could have found The Black Book there.

Bill


W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 1:46 PM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Cc: Bruce Redwine
Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book

Perhaps a more detailed explanation of the relevance of Thomas Middleton's work would be helpful?  Or is this being saved for an article?  See link below.  The edition seems a bit pricey at $199.  Assuming Middleton's Black Book is a primary source for Durrell's Black Book, other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of such an obscure work?  How and where did he get the nose of a hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?  Was LD rummaging through the bowels of the British Library, during his off-hours at the jazz piano?  Whatever got into our boy to do such strange things?


BR


/www.amazon.com/Thomas-Middleton-Collected-Works/dp/0198185693/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1288286002&sr=1-1



On Oct 28, 2010, at 8:57 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:

Thomas Middleton's

? The Black Book, edited by G. B. Shand. The latest edition.





W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca<mailto:ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca> [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Godshalk, William (godshawl) [godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 7:53 PM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca<mailto:ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer

_The last will and testament of Lawrence Lucifer_  has been attributed to Thomas Middleton. Did Durrell know this? I suppose D did know, but Google will no confirm it for me.

Bill





From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Thu Oct 28 18:26:58 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 21:26:58 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <D3866062-714F-4D4F-BDBE-2F63EEF8BFC2@earthlink.net>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>,
	<D3866062-714F-4D4F-BDBE-2F63EEF8BFC2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E4@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

Durrell did have a strong interest in Renaissance/Early Modern poetry and drama. I don't know why, how, where, when, he got this bug. Has anyone checked Ian McNiven? 

Durrell did suggest in the TLS  that Marlowe was the rival poet of Shakespeare's sonnets. The attribution is questionable, but it does indicate Durrell's ongoing interest in the period.

Bill


W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:18 PM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Cc: Bruce Redwine
Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book

Yes, you provide a good catalogue, but that doesn't explain how he acquired the interest, why he had it, or how he went about satisfying the craving.  He didn't have the usual introduction to such materials, namely, an English course in Shakespeare's contemporaries.  Hard questions to answer, no doubt, but important ones, I think.  This interest is not like collecting pin-ups, model airplanes, baseball cards, or any other such hobbies.  It assumes a fascination for esoterica and reminds me of Aleister Crowley and the occult.


BR



On Oct 28, 2010, at 10:57 AM, James Gifford wrote:

> On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
>> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
>> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?
>
> I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do...
> Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially.
>  It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form
> and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.  His essays on
> Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a
> university education.
>
> As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local
> library does.  I'll see.
>
> Best,
> James


_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Thu Oct 28 18:30:18 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 21:30:18 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>,
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E5@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

I do have a copy of Taylor's edition of Middleton. I have no excuse for remaining in ignorance.

Bill


W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of James Gifford [james.d.gifford at gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 1:57 PM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book

On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?

I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do...
Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially.
  It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form
and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.  His essays on
Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a
university education.

As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local
library does.  I'll see.

Best,
James
_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Thu Oct 28 21:06:58 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 00:06:58 -0400
Subject: [ilds] The Blacke Booke (London 1604)
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E6@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

I have not read this satirical pamphlet carefully and at length. 

It is mostly in the voice of Lawrence Lucifer, whose last will and testament the pamphlet pretends to be.  It satirizes the evils of Renaissance London.  The piece alludes to a character named Gregory Gauntlet, high thief on horseback.

More work needs to be done. D does not seem to have this pamphlet in front of him as he wrote TBB. 

Bill 





From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 28 18:15:06 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:15:06 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E0@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>,
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E0@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <A82898AA-51AE-4114-A320-2E419F3C3FD6@earthlink.net>

I trust your judgment.  Let's hear it!


BR



On Oct 28, 2010, at 11:35 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:

> Well, I did try the bibliography, and it appeared that no one had written an essay on Durrell and Middleton. I of course knew about Lawrence Lucifer,but I do wonder if D modeled his own LL on Middleton's. Judgement please.
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English    *           *
> University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
> OH 45221-0069 *  *
> ________________________________________
> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of James Gifford [james.d.gifford at gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 1:57 PM
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
> 
> On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
>> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
>> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?
> 
> I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do...
> Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially.
>  It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form
> and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.  His essays on
> Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a
> university education.
> 
> As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local
> library does.  I'll see.
> 
> Best,
> James
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 28 19:39:58 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 19:39:58 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E4@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>,
	<D3866062-714F-4D4F-BDBE-2F63EEF8BFC2@earthlink.net>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E4@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <9497D0C0-8CFF-4F88-B230-8B2E9461B00F@earthlink.net>

Bill,

I find this topic fascinating and inexplicable ? how a young man, possibly a late adolescent, without the usual academic background, could have become enthralled with obscure Elizabethans and Jacobeans, those poets and playwrights completely overshadowed by Shakespeare.  You just don't get copies of Middleton, Marston, Dekker, etc. by walking into your local library or bookstore, circa 1930.  It seems to me to show something both indicative and important about his personality.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the subject.


Bruce



On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:

> Durrell did have a strong interest in Renaissance/Early Modern poetry and drama. I don't know why, how, where, when, he got this bug. Has anyone checked Ian McNiven? 
> 
> Durrell did suggest in the TLS  that Marlowe was the rival poet of Shakespeare's sonnets. The attribution is questionable, but it does indicate Durrell's ongoing interest in the period.
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English    *           *
> University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
> OH 45221-0069 *  *
> ________________________________________
> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:18 PM
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
> 
> Yes, you provide a good catalogue, but that doesn't explain how he acquired the interest, why he had it, or how he went about satisfying the craving.  He didn't have the usual introduction to such materials, namely, an English course in Shakespeare's contemporaries.  Hard questions to answer, no doubt, but important ones, I think.  This interest is not like collecting pin-ups, model airplanes, baseball cards, or any other such hobbies.  It assumes a fascination for esoterica and reminds me of Aleister Crowley and the occult.
> 
> 
> BR
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 10:57 AM, James Gifford wrote:
> 
>> On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
>>> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
>>> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?
>> 
>> I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do...
>> Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially.
>> It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form
>> and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.  His essays on
>> Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a
>> university education.
>> 
>> As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local
>> library does.  I'll see.
>> 
>> Best,
>> James
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Fri Oct 29 11:38:18 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 14:38:18 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <9497D0C0-8CFF-4F88-B230-8B2E9461B00F@earthlink.net>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>,
	<D3866062-714F-4D4F-BDBE-2F63EEF8BFC2@earthlink.net>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E4@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>,
	<9497D0C0-8CFF-4F88-B230-8B2E9461B00F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

Durrell was a year older than Thomas (give or a take) -- 1911, 1912.

Durrell did (from time to time) write Thomas  asking him to supply him (Durrell) with as much material  as he (Thomas) could on a certain topic in which he (Durrell) had become interested. It seems that Thomas did as he was bidden. I do not know how many books were sent or when or how or where. 

Why was Durrell interested in the English Renaissance I do not know, but I can guess. It was and is terribly romantic -- sex and violence, whore houses and playhouses side by side with bear and bull baiting. Link this to a queen who seems to have had hot sex, but no living children. Congenital syphilis? The New World? Capitalism? Marlowe was a government spy who came in from the cold only to be bumped off by Walsingham's agent -- maybe. 

I am to learn if very many Ren works end with a last will and testament. Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida has a mini-will-making (circa 1600). Middleton and Shakespeare could have influenced each other in this.

Fun stuff for a young romantic.

Anyway, we can be pretty sure that Durrell read Middleton.

Bill



W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:39 PM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Cc: Bruce Redwine
Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book

Bill,

I find this topic fascinating and inexplicable ? how a young man, possibly a late adolescent, without the usual academic background, could have become enthralled with obscure Elizabethans and Jacobeans, those poets and playwrights completely overshadowed by Shakespeare.  You just don't get copies of Middleton, Marston, Dekker, etc. by walking into your local library or bookstore, circa 1930.  It seems to me to show something both indicative and important about his personality.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the subject.


Bruce



On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:

> Durrell did have a strong interest in Renaissance/Early Modern poetry and drama. I don't know why, how, where, when, he got this bug. Has anyone checked Ian McNiven?
>
> Durrell did suggest in the TLS  that Marlowe was the rival poet of Shakespeare's sonnets. The attribution is questionable, but it does indicate Durrell's ongoing interest in the period.
>
> Bill
>
>
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English    *           *
> University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
> OH 45221-0069 *  *
> ________________________________________
> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:18 PM
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
>
> Yes, you provide a good catalogue, but that doesn't explain how he acquired the interest, why he had it, or how he went about satisfying the craving.  He didn't have the usual introduction to such materials, namely, an English course in Shakespeare's contemporaries.  Hard questions to answer, no doubt, but important ones, I think.  This interest is not like collecting pin-ups, model airplanes, baseball cards, or any other such hobbies.  It assumes a fascination for esoterica and reminds me of Aleister Crowley and the occult.
>
>
> BR
>
>
>
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 10:57 AM, James Gifford wrote:
>
>> On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
>>> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
>>> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?
>>
>> I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do...
>> Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially.
>> It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form
>> and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.  His essays on
>> Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a
>> university education.
>>
>> As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local
>> library does.  I'll see.
>>
>> Best,
>> James
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Fri Oct 29 11:51:29 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 14:51:29 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <9497D0C0-8CFF-4F88-B230-8B2E9461B00F@earthlink.net>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>,
	<D3866062-714F-4D4F-BDBE-2F63EEF8BFC2@earthlink.net>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E4@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>,
	<9497D0C0-8CFF-4F88-B230-8B2E9461B00F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

I've been told -- hearsay this -- that Renaissance books were easy to find on booksellers shelves in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Easy to find and relatively cheap. I think William Ringer told me this. Rather than copy quotations from a given work, the passages were cut from a Ren book and pasted in. I think there are examples at the Folger in DC. 

>From my brief reading last night, I would say that Durrell's Lawrence Lucifer is only vaguely like Middleton's. 

Bill 
W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:39 PM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Cc: Bruce Redwine
Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book

Bill,

I find this topic fascinating and inexplicable ? how a young man, possibly a late adolescent, without the usual academic background, could have become enthralled with obscure Elizabethans and Jacobeans, those poets and playwrights completely overshadowed by Shakespeare.  You just don't get copies of Middleton, Marston, Dekker, etc. by walking into your local library or bookstore, circa 1930.  It seems to me to show something both indicative and important about his personality.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the subject.


Bruce



On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:

> Durrell did have a strong interest in Renaissance/Early Modern poetry and drama. I don't know why, how, where, when, he got this bug. Has anyone checked Ian McNiven?
>
> Durrell did suggest in the TLS  that Marlowe was the rival poet of Shakespeare's sonnets. The attribution is questionable, but it does indicate Durrell's ongoing interest in the period.
>
> Bill
>
>
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English    *           *
> University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
> OH 45221-0069 *  *
> ________________________________________
> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:18 PM
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
>
> Yes, you provide a good catalogue, but that doesn't explain how he acquired the interest, why he had it, or how he went about satisfying the craving.  He didn't have the usual introduction to such materials, namely, an English course in Shakespeare's contemporaries.  Hard questions to answer, no doubt, but important ones, I think.  This interest is not like collecting pin-ups, model airplanes, baseball cards, or any other such hobbies.  It assumes a fascination for esoterica and reminds me of Aleister Crowley and the occult.
>
>
> BR
>
>
>
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 10:57 AM, James Gifford wrote:
>
>> On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
>>> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
>>> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?
>>
>> I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do...
>> Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially.
>> It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form
>> and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.  His essays on
>> Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a
>> university education.
>>
>> As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local
>> library does.  I'll see.
>>
>> Best,
>> James
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 29 11:14:27 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 11:14:27 -0700
Subject: [ilds] The Blacke Booke (London 1604)
In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E6@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E6@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <D63E890B-A814-4F93-99AB-61345E8A2CDD@earthlink.net>

Bill,

A paperback edition of Oxford's collected Middleton sells for about $40.  I took a look at it on Amazon and pulled up sections of The Black Book, but I couldn't read more than a few paragraphs without suffering eyestrain.  Even with this very limited exposure, I do see similarities to Durrell's BB.  The big names for one:  Lucifer and Gregory.  More importantly, the satirical tone is quite similar to Durrell's:  Middleton is out to expose "the evils of Renaissance London," as you note, whereas Durrell attempts to expose those of modern London, the "English death," and modern literature.  I'd say, offhand, the two books have very similar "voices" and objectives.  I think you should pursue the comparison.  A close analysis of the two styles could be revealing.


Bruce


  
On Oct 28, 2010, at 9:06 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:

> I have not read this satirical pamphlet carefully and at length. 
> 
> It is mostly in the voice of Lawrence Lucifer, whose last will and testament the pamphlet pretends to be.  It satirizes the evils of Renaissance London.  The piece alludes to a character named Gregory Gauntlet, high thief on horseback.
> 
> More work needs to be done. D does not seem to have this pamphlet in front of him as he wrote TBB. 
> 
> Bill 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

-------------- next part --------------
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 29 12:31:01 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 12:31:01 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>,
	<D3866062-714F-4D4F-BDBE-2F63EEF8BFC2@earthlink.net>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E4@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>,
	<9497D0C0-8CFF-4F88-B230-8B2E9461B00F@earthlink.net>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <6708D148-7E7C-464F-9E14-9A89BF9F4FD3@earthlink.net>

Bill,

Yes, you're probably right about the wild and sensational aspects of Renaissance London.  There was a lot there to appeal to a young man feeling his oats and especially to one who has great literary aspirations.  It was also a time of great flux for the English language itself.  A very lively time linguistically.  Renaissance English was getting bombarded by Latin (possible 40% of Latinate vocabulary introduced at the time), and writers were experimenting with their own language.  Fertile ground for a Shakespeare and anyone following in his footsteps.  This is all true, but still ? how did Durrell know all this?

Isn't Durrell's Black Book itself a kind of last will and testament?  Another similarity to Middleton's.


Bruce



On Oct 29, 2010, at 11:38 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:

> Durrell was a year older than Thomas (give or a take) -- 1911, 1912.
> 
> Durrell did (from time to time) write Thomas  asking him to supply him (Durrell) with as much material  as he (Thomas) could on a certain topic in which he (Durrell) had become interested. It seems that Thomas did as he was bidden. I do not know how many books were sent or when or how or where. 
> 
> Why was Durrell interested in the English Renaissance I do not know, but I can guess. It was and is terribly romantic -- sex and violence, whore houses and playhouses side by side with bear and bull baiting. Link this to a queen who seems to have had hot sex, but no living children. Congenital syphilis? The New World? Capitalism? Marlowe was a government spy who came in from the cold only to be bumped off by Walsingham's agent -- maybe. 
> 
> I am to learn if very many Ren works end with a last will and testament. Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida has a mini-will-making (circa 1600). Middleton and Shakespeare could have influenced each other in this.
> 
> Fun stuff for a young romantic.
> 
> Anyway, we can be pretty sure that Durrell read Middleton.
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English    *           *
> University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
> OH 45221-0069 *  *
> ________________________________________
> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:39 PM
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
> 
> Bill,
> 
> I find this topic fascinating and inexplicable ? how a young man, possibly a late adolescent, without the usual academic background, could have become enthralled with obscure Elizabethans and Jacobeans, those poets and playwrights completely overshadowed by Shakespeare.  You just don't get copies of Middleton, Marston, Dekker, etc. by walking into your local library or bookstore, circa 1930.  It seems to me to show something both indicative and important about his personality.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the subject.
> 
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:
> 
>> Durrell did have a strong interest in Renaissance/Early Modern poetry and drama. I don't know why, how, where, when, he got this bug. Has anyone checked Ian McNiven?
>> 
>> Durrell did suggest in the TLS  that Marlowe was the rival poet of Shakespeare's sonnets. The attribution is questionable, but it does indicate Durrell's ongoing interest in the period.
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
>> 
>> W. L. Godshalk *
>> Department of English    *           *
>> University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
>> OH 45221-0069 *  *
>> ________________________________________
>> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:18 PM
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Cc: Bruce Redwine
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
>> 
>> Yes, you provide a good catalogue, but that doesn't explain how he acquired the interest, why he had it, or how he went about satisfying the craving.  He didn't have the usual introduction to such materials, namely, an English course in Shakespeare's contemporaries.  Hard questions to answer, no doubt, but important ones, I think.  This interest is not like collecting pin-ups, model airplanes, baseball cards, or any other such hobbies.  It assumes a fascination for esoterica and reminds me of Aleister Crowley and the occult.
>> 
>> 
>> BR
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 28, 2010, at 10:57 AM, James Gifford wrote:
>> 
>>> On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
>>>> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
>>>> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?
>>> 
>>> I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do...
>>> Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially.
>>> It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form
>>> and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.  His essays on
>>> Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a
>>> university education.
>>> 
>>> As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local
>>> library does.  I'll see.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> James

-------------- next part --------------
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From gkoger at mindspring.com  Fri Oct 29 16:15:36 2010
From: gkoger at mindspring.com (gkoger at mindspring.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 19:15:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
Message-ID: <32366234.1288394136894.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I think that Bill's "guess" explains much about Durrell's literary interests. He appreciated the excitement and color and boldness of all kinds of lit--not just the kind that proper students are taught to revere and dissect. His "Minor Mythologies" piece makes that obvious.

In this connection I'm reminded of the title of one of P.C. Wren's books, /Action and Passion/. (Borrowed from O.W. Holmes?) Don't those two words sum up many of our reasons for reading? And living?

Grove  


Bill: "Why was Durrell interested in the English Renaissance I do not know, but I can guess. It was and is terribly romantic -- sex and violence, whore houses and playhouses side by side with bear and bull baiting. Link this to a queen who seems to have had hot sex, but no living children. Congenital syphilis? The New World? Capitalism? Marlowe was a government spy who came in from the cold only to be bumped off by Walsingham's agent -- maybe."




From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Fri Oct 29 16:56:40 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 19:56:40 -0400
Subject: [ilds] The Black Book
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441EE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>


W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
I'm assuming that other members of the Durrell Soc are hard at work on these Black Books.

I'f you are not, please let me now. I don't want to waste my time.

Bill

From rpinecorfu at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 30 07:06:30 2010
From: rpinecorfu at yahoo.com (Richard Pine)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:06:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <9497D0C0-8CFF-4F88-B230-8B2E9461B00F@earthlink.net>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>,
	<D3866062-714F-4D4F-BDBE-2F63EEF8BFC2@earthlink.net>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E4@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<9497D0C0-8CFF-4F88-B230-8B2E9461B00F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <473273.15648.qm@web65806.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Apart from LD's manifold notes for his projected book on 'The Writer in 
Elizabethan England', we know that he possessed the following (although 
unfortunately we cannot be sure of the dates on which he acquired them, despite 
his generalised letters to Alan Thomas in relation to his 'Elizas'):
- The Plays of John Marston? ed H Harvey Wood, 3 vols, 1934 (heavily annotated)
- The Works of Thomas Nashe, ed R B McKerrow, 1904-8 (LD had vols 2-5) 
Annotations to vols 2-4 (not vol 5) suggest that he had read these before 
writing The Black Book
- The Three Parnassus Plays, ed J B Leishman, 1949 - heavily annotated but 
post-BB
- The Complete Works of John Webster, ed F L Lucas, 4 vols, 1927, annotations to 
vols 1, 3, 4.
- Revenger's Tragedy, ed G B Harrison, 1934
- The Miscellaneous Works in Prose and Verse of Sir Thomas Overbury Knt, ed E F 
Rimbault, 1890 (I mention LD's notes to this in my Mindscape)
- Sir John Harrington's A New Discourse of a Stale Subject, Called the 
Metamorphosis of Ajax ed E S Donno, 1962 (obviously post-BB, but extensively 
annotated)
-? also, publications of the Hunterian Club (published in the 1870s): Diogenes 
Lanthorne by Samuel Rowlands (1607); The Divel Coniured by Thomas Lodge (1596; 
the copy is uncut); Greenes Ghost by Rowlands (1602; uncut); Scillaes 
Metamorphosis by Lodge (1589); Catharos Diogenes? by Lodge (1591; uncut); A 
Paire of Spy-Knaves by Rowlands (1613?; uncut); Tis Merrie when Gossips Meete by 
Rowlands (1602; uncut); Martin Markall Beadle of Bridewell by Rowlands (1610); 
The Wounds of Civil War by Lodge (1594; uncut); Humors Looking Glasse by 
Rowlands (1608); A Whole Crew of Kind Gossips by Rowlands (1609); The 
Melancholie Knight by Rowlands (1615).
Where LD has cut the pages, he has in most cases made marginal notes

He also had quite an extensive library of critical works on Shakespeare and his 
contemporaries, in most cases heavily underlined and noted.

RP


----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
Sent: Fri, October 29, 2010 5:39:58 AM
Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book

Bill,

I find this topic fascinating and inexplicable ? how a young man, possibly a 
late adolescent, without the usual academic background, could have become 
enthralled with obscure Elizabethans and Jacobeans, those poets and playwrights 
completely overshadowed by Shakespeare.? You just don't get copies of Middleton, 
Marston, Dekker, etc. by walking into your local library or bookstore, circa 
1930.? It seems to me to show something both indicative and important about his 
personality.? Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the subject.


Bruce



On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:

> Durrell did have a strong interest in Renaissance/Early Modern poetry and 
>drama. I don't know why, how, where, when, he got this bug. Has anyone checked 
>Ian McNiven? 
>
> 
> Durrell did suggest in the TLS? that Marlowe was the rival poet of 
>Shakespeare's sonnets. The attribution is questionable, but it does indicate 
>Durrell's ongoing interest in the period.
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English? ? *? ? ? ? ? *
> University of Cincinnati*? * Stellar Disorder? *
> OH 45221-0069 *? *
> ________________________________________
> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of 
>Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:18 PM
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
> 
> Yes, you provide a good catalogue, but that doesn't explain how he acquired the 
>interest, why he had it, or how he went about satisfying the craving.? He didn't 
>have the usual introduction to such materials, namely, an English course in 
>Shakespeare's contemporaries.? Hard questions to answer, no doubt, but important 
>ones, I think.? This interest is not like collecting pin-ups, model airplanes, 
>baseball cards, or any other such hobbies.? It assumes a fascination for 
>esoterica and reminds me of Aleister Crowley and the occult.
> 
> 
> BR
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 10:57 AM, James Gifford wrote:
> 
>> On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
>>> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
>>> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?
>> 
>> I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do...
>> Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially.
>> It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form
>> and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.? His essays on
>> Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a
>> university education.
>> 
>> As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local
>> library does.? I'll see.
>> 
>> Best,
>> James
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



      


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 30 07:51:14 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:51:14 -0700
Subject: [ilds] The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441EE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441EE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <7BBA327C-1676-4D2A-9E83-D96ECFE85DE9@earthlink.net>

Bill,

You are not wasting your time by explaining the context of Middleton's Blacke Book.  It's still not clear to me how Durrell could have become interested in such obscure material.  Your explanation of the sensational aspects of the early English Renaissance is good, but you're providing the knowledge of an authority on the Elizabethan and Jacobean periods, particularly from a modern perspective, one with the benefit of modern research.  I doubt if your knowledge was common knowledge during the early 20th century, which concentrated on a handful of great writers:  Spenser, Marlowe, Bacon, Jonson, Donne, and of course Shakespeare.  Those are the authors Durrell would have known in his courses, not Middleton and certainly not the Middleton of The Blacke Book.

By the way, I find four references to a "[last] will and testament" in Durrell's Black Book.  I think it a good bet that Durrell did have Middleton's BB well in mind when he was composing his own.


Bruce



On Oct 29, 2010, at 4:56 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:

> 
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English    *           *
> University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
> OH 45221-0069 *  *
> ________________________________________
> I'm assuming that other members of the Durrell Soc are hard at work on these Black Books.
> 
> I'f you are not, please let me now. I don't want to waste my time.
> 
> Bill

-------------- next part --------------
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 30 07:57:56 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:57:56 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <473273.15648.qm@web65806.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>,
	<D3866062-714F-4D4F-BDBE-2F63EEF8BFC2@earthlink.net>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E4@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<9497D0C0-8CFF-4F88-B230-8B2E9461B00F@earthlink.net>
	<473273.15648.qm@web65806.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <69812D7C-A77A-4491-8618-EDF8916AA1E6@earthlink.net>

My goodness.  Many of these writers I've never heard of.


BR



On Oct 30, 2010, at 7:06 AM, Richard Pine wrote:

> Apart from LD's manifold notes for his projected book on 'The Writer in 
> Elizabethan England', we know that he possessed the following (although 
> unfortunately we cannot be sure of the dates on which he acquired them, despite 
> his generalised letters to Alan Thomas in relation to his 'Elizas'):
> - The Plays of John Marston  ed H Harvey Wood, 3 vols, 1934 (heavily annotated)
> - The Works of Thomas Nashe, ed R B McKerrow, 1904-8 (LD had vols 2-5) 
> Annotations to vols 2-4 (not vol 5) suggest that he had read these before 
> writing The Black Book
> - The Three Parnassus Plays, ed J B Leishman, 1949 - heavily annotated but 
> post-BB
> - The Complete Works of John Webster, ed F L Lucas, 4 vols, 1927, annotations to 
> vols 1, 3, 4.
> - Revenger's Tragedy, ed G B Harrison, 1934
> - The Miscellaneous Works in Prose and Verse of Sir Thomas Overbury Knt, ed E F 
> Rimbault, 1890 (I mention LD's notes to this in my Mindscape)
> - Sir John Harrington's A New Discourse of a Stale Subject, Called the 
> Metamorphosis of Ajax ed E S Donno, 1962 (obviously post-BB, but extensively 
> annotated)
> -  also, publications of the Hunterian Club (published in the 1870s): Diogenes 
> Lanthorne by Samuel Rowlands (1607); The Divel Coniured by Thomas Lodge (1596; 
> the copy is uncut); Greenes Ghost by Rowlands (1602; uncut); Scillaes 
> Metamorphosis by Lodge (1589); Catharos Diogenes  by Lodge (1591; uncut); A 
> Paire of Spy-Knaves by Rowlands (1613?; uncut); Tis Merrie when Gossips Meete by 
> Rowlands (1602; uncut); Martin Markall Beadle of Bridewell by Rowlands (1610); 
> The Wounds of Civil War by Lodge (1594; uncut); Humors Looking Glasse by 
> Rowlands (1608); A Whole Crew of Kind Gossips by Rowlands (1609); The 
> Melancholie Knight by Rowlands (1615).
> Where LD has cut the pages, he has in most cases made marginal notes
> 
> He also had quite an extensive library of critical works on Shakespeare and his 
> contemporaries, in most cases heavily underlined and noted.
> 
> RP
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Sent: Fri, October 29, 2010 5:39:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
> 
> Bill,
> 
> I find this topic fascinating and inexplicable ? how a young man, possibly a 
> late adolescent, without the usual academic background, could have become 
> enthralled with obscure Elizabethans and Jacobeans, those poets and playwrights 
> completely overshadowed by Shakespeare.  You just don't get copies of Middleton, 
> Marston, Dekker, etc. by walking into your local library or bookstore, circa 
> 1930.  It seems to me to show something both indicative and important about his 
> personality.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the subject.
> 
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:
> 
>> Durrell did have a strong interest in Renaissance/Early Modern poetry and 
>> drama. I don't know why, how, where, when, he got this bug. Has anyone checked 
>> Ian McNiven? 
>> 
>> 
>> Durrell did suggest in the TLS  that Marlowe was the rival poet of 
>> Shakespeare's sonnets. The attribution is questionable, but it does indicate 
>> Durrell's ongoing interest in the period.
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
>> 
>> W. L. Godshalk *
>> Department of English    *          *
>> University of Cincinnati*  * Stellar Disorder  *
>> OH 45221-0069 *  *
>> ________________________________________
>> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of 
>> Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:18 PM
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Cc: Bruce Redwine
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
>> 
>> Yes, you provide a good catalogue, but that doesn't explain how he acquired the 
>> interest, why he had it, or how he went about satisfying the craving.  He didn't 
>> have the usual introduction to such materials, namely, an English course in 
>> Shakespeare's contemporaries.  Hard questions to answer, no doubt, but important 
>> ones, I think.  This interest is not like collecting pin-ups, model airplanes, 
>> baseball cards, or any other such hobbies.  It assumes a fascination for 
>> esoterica and reminds me of Aleister Crowley and the occult.
>> 
>> 
>> BR
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 28, 2010, at 10:57 AM, James Gifford wrote:
>> 
>>> On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
>>>> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
>>>> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?
>>> 
>>> I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do...
>>> Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially.
>>> It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form
>>> and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.  His essays on
>>> Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a
>>> university education.
>>> 
>>> As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local
>>> library does.  I'll see.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> James
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From rpinecorfu at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 30 08:59:08 2010
From: rpinecorfu at yahoo.com (Richard Pine)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 08:59:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <69812D7C-A77A-4491-8618-EDF8916AA1E6@earthlink.net>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>,
	<D3866062-714F-4D4F-BDBE-2F63EEF8BFC2@earthlink.net>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E4@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<9497D0C0-8CFF-4F88-B230-8B2E9461B00F@earthlink.net>
	<473273.15648.qm@web65806.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<69812D7C-A77A-4491-8618-EDF8916AA1E6@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <499980.66452.qm@web65808.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

In preparation for his 'Elizabethan' book, LD made biographical notes on (as far 
as I can recall) 57 writers - most of them unknown today. RP



----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
Sent: Sat, October 30, 2010 5:57:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book

My goodness.? Many of these writers I've never heard of.


BR



On Oct 30, 2010, at 7:06 AM, Richard Pine wrote:

> Apart from LD's manifold notes for his projected book on 'The Writer in 
> Elizabethan England', we know that he possessed the following (although 
> unfortunately we cannot be sure of the dates on which he acquired them, despite 
>
> his generalised letters to Alan Thomas in relation to his 'Elizas'):
> - The Plays of John Marston? ed H Harvey Wood, 3 vols, 1934 (heavily 
annotated)
> - The Works of Thomas Nashe, ed R B McKerrow, 1904-8 (LD had vols 2-5) 
> Annotations to vols 2-4 (not vol 5) suggest that he had read these before 
> writing The Black Book
> - The Three Parnassus Plays, ed J B Leishman, 1949 - heavily annotated but 
> post-BB
> - The Complete Works of John Webster, ed F L Lucas, 4 vols, 1927, annotations 
>to 
>
> vols 1, 3, 4.
> - Revenger's Tragedy, ed G B Harrison, 1934
> - The Miscellaneous Works in Prose and Verse of Sir Thomas Overbury Knt, ed E F 
>
> Rimbault, 1890 (I mention LD's notes to this in my Mindscape)
> - Sir John Harrington's A New Discourse of a Stale Subject, Called the 
> Metamorphosis of Ajax ed E S Donno, 1962 (obviously post-BB, but extensively 
> annotated)
> -? also, publications of the Hunterian Club (published in the 1870s): Diogenes 

> Lanthorne by Samuel Rowlands (1607); The Divel Coniured by Thomas Lodge (1596; 

> the copy is uncut); Greenes Ghost by Rowlands (1602; uncut); Scillaes 
> Metamorphosis by Lodge (1589); Catharos Diogenes? by Lodge (1591; uncut); A 
> Paire of Spy-Knaves by Rowlands (1613?; uncut); Tis Merrie when Gossips Meete 
>by 
>
> Rowlands (1602; uncut); Martin Markall Beadle of Bridewell by Rowlands (1610); 

> The Wounds of Civil War by Lodge (1594; uncut); Humors Looking Glasse by 
> Rowlands (1608); A Whole Crew of Kind Gossips by Rowlands (1609); The 
> Melancholie Knight by Rowlands (1615).
> Where LD has cut the pages, he has in most cases made marginal notes
> 
> He also had quite an extensive library of critical works on Shakespeare and his 
>
> contemporaries, in most cases heavily underlined and noted.
> 
> RP
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Sent: Fri, October 29, 2010 5:39:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
> 
> Bill,
> 
> I find this topic fascinating and inexplicable ? how a young man, possibly a 
> late adolescent, without the usual academic background, could have become 
> enthralled with obscure Elizabethans and Jacobeans, those poets and playwrights 
>
> completely overshadowed by Shakespeare.? You just don't get copies of 
>Middleton, 
>
> Marston, Dekker, etc. by walking into your local library or bookstore, circa 
> 1930.? It seems to me to show something both indicative and important about his 
>
> personality.? Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the subject.
> 
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:
> 
>> Durrell did have a strong interest in Renaissance/Early Modern poetry and 
>> drama. I don't know why, how, where, when, he got this bug. Has anyone checked 
>
>> Ian McNiven? 
>> 
>> 
>> Durrell did suggest in the TLS? that Marlowe was the rival poet of 
>> Shakespeare's sonnets. The attribution is questionable, but it does indicate 
>> Durrell's ongoing interest in the period.
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
>> 
>> W. L. Godshalk *
>> Department of English? ? *? ? ? ? ? *
>> University of Cincinnati*? * Stellar Disorder? *
>> OH 45221-0069 *? *
>> ________________________________________
>> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of 
>> Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:18 PM
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Cc: Bruce Redwine
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
>> 
>> Yes, you provide a good catalogue, but that doesn't explain how he acquired the 
>>
>> interest, why he had it, or how he went about satisfying the craving.? He 
>>didn't 
>>
>> have the usual introduction to such materials, namely, an English course in 
>> Shakespeare's contemporaries.? Hard questions to answer, no doubt, but 
>>important 
>>
>> ones, I think.? This interest is not like collecting pin-ups, model airplanes, 
>
>> baseball cards, or any other such hobbies.? It assumes a fascination for 
>> esoterica and reminds me of Aleister Crowley and the occult.
>> 
>> 
>> BR
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 28, 2010, at 10:57 AM, James Gifford wrote:
>> 
>>> On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
>>>> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
>>>> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?
>>> 
>>> I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do...
>>> Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially.
>>> It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form
>>> and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.? His essays on
>>> Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a
>>> university education.
>>> 
>>> As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local
>>> library does.? I'll see.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> James
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



      


From sharbanibm at gmail.com  Sat Oct 30 11:29:41 2010
From: sharbanibm at gmail.com (sharbani banerjee)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 23:59:41 +0530
Subject: [ilds] death/afterlife
In-Reply-To: <3920863.266541287510948251.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
References: <3920863.266541287510948251.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikX34ZcK=ySYh6+kkV2_fCYkLbk1a38L8i8Rft+@mail.gmail.com>

My thesis on Durrell has a chapter on his theory and/or reaction to
death. I could share exerpts of it if you are interested.
thanks
Dr. Sharbani Banerjee
Associate Professor of English
T.D.B.College
Ranigunj
West Bengal
INDIA

On 10/19/10, laurapais at tiscali.it <laurapais at tiscali.it> wrote:
> DEAR DURRELLIANS, COULD ANYBODY GIVE ME AN INDICATION ABOUT A WORK/S
> WHERE DURRELL EXPRESSES HIS IDEA/S ABOUT DEATH AND AFTERLIFE?
> THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED,
> LAURA PAIS
> laurapais at tiscali.it
>
>
> Supera i limiti: raddoppia la velocit? da 10 a 20 Mega! Risparmia con Tutto
> Incluso: telefono + adsl 20 mega a soli 26,60 ? al mese per un anno!SCONTO
> DI 160
> EURO!http://abbonati.tiscali.it/telefono-adsl/prodotti/tc/tuttoincluso/?WT.mc_id=01fw
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 30 13:17:32 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:17:32 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <499980.66452.qm@web65808.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>,
	<D3866062-714F-4D4F-BDBE-2F63EEF8BFC2@earthlink.net>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E4@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<9497D0C0-8CFF-4F88-B230-8B2E9461B00F@earthlink.net>
	<473273.15648.qm@web65806.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<69812D7C-A77A-4491-8618-EDF8916AA1E6@earthlink.net>
	<499980.66452.qm@web65808.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <F4303DA8-BF3C-4B7F-A07C-F3C3FDB769EF@earthlink.net>

Which only increases my amazement that Durrell would pursue such an abstruse topic.  I wish he had written that "Elizabethan book."  That would have been revealing in at least a couple of ways:  about the subject and about the author.  Thanks for the info.


BR



On Oct 30, 2010, at 8:59 AM, Richard Pine wrote:

> In preparation for his 'Elizabethan' book, LD made biographical notes on (as far 
> as I can recall) 57 writers - most of them unknown today. RP
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Sent: Sat, October 30, 2010 5:57:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
> 
> My goodness.  Many of these writers I've never heard of.
> 
> 
> BR
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 30, 2010, at 7:06 AM, Richard Pine wrote:
> 
>> Apart from LD's manifold notes for his projected book on 'The Writer in 
>> Elizabethan England', we know that he possessed the following (although 
>> unfortunately we cannot be sure of the dates on which he acquired them, despite 
>> 
>> his generalised letters to Alan Thomas in relation to his 'Elizas'):
>> - The Plays of John Marston  ed H Harvey Wood, 3 vols, 1934 (heavily 
> annotated)
>> - The Works of Thomas Nashe, ed R B McKerrow, 1904-8 (LD had vols 2-5) 
>> Annotations to vols 2-4 (not vol 5) suggest that he had read these before 
>> writing The Black Book
>> - The Three Parnassus Plays, ed J B Leishman, 1949 - heavily annotated but 
>> post-BB
>> - The Complete Works of John Webster, ed F L Lucas, 4 vols, 1927, annotations 
>> to 
>> 
>> vols 1, 3, 4.
>> - Revenger's Tragedy, ed G B Harrison, 1934
>> - The Miscellaneous Works in Prose and Verse of Sir Thomas Overbury Knt, ed E F 
>> 
>> Rimbault, 1890 (I mention LD's notes to this in my Mindscape)
>> - Sir John Harrington's A New Discourse of a Stale Subject, Called the 
>> Metamorphosis of Ajax ed E S Donno, 1962 (obviously post-BB, but extensively 
>> annotated)
>> -  also, publications of the Hunterian Club (published in the 1870s): Diogenes 
> 
>> Lanthorne by Samuel Rowlands (1607); The Divel Coniured by Thomas Lodge (1596; 
> 
>> the copy is uncut); Greenes Ghost by Rowlands (1602; uncut); Scillaes 
>> Metamorphosis by Lodge (1589); Catharos Diogenes  by Lodge (1591; uncut); A 
>> Paire of Spy-Knaves by Rowlands (1613?; uncut); Tis Merrie when Gossips Meete 
>> by 
>> 
>> Rowlands (1602; uncut); Martin Markall Beadle of Bridewell by Rowlands (1610); 
> 
>> The Wounds of Civil War by Lodge (1594; uncut); Humors Looking Glasse by 
>> Rowlands (1608); A Whole Crew of Kind Gossips by Rowlands (1609); The 
>> Melancholie Knight by Rowlands (1615).
>> Where LD has cut the pages, he has in most cases made marginal notes
>> 
>> He also had quite an extensive library of critical works on Shakespeare and his 
>> 
>> contemporaries, in most cases heavily underlined and noted.
>> 
>> RP
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>> Sent: Fri, October 29, 2010 5:39:58 AM
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
>> 
>> Bill,
>> 
>> I find this topic fascinating and inexplicable ? how a young man, possibly a 
>> late adolescent, without the usual academic background, could have become 
>> enthralled with obscure Elizabethans and Jacobeans, those poets and playwrights 
>> 
>> completely overshadowed by Shakespeare.  You just don't get copies of 
>> Middleton, 
>> 
>> Marston, Dekker, etc. by walking into your local library or bookstore, circa 
>> 1930.  It seems to me to show something both indicative and important about his 
>> 
>> personality.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the subject.
>> 
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:
>> 
>>> Durrell did have a strong interest in Renaissance/Early Modern poetry and 
>>> drama. I don't know why, how, where, when, he got this bug. Has anyone checked 
>> 
>>> Ian McNiven? 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Durrell did suggest in the TLS  that Marlowe was the rival poet of 
>>> Shakespeare's sonnets. The attribution is questionable, but it does indicate 
>>> Durrell's ongoing interest in the period.
>>> 
>>> Bill
>>> 
>>> 
>>> W. L. Godshalk *
>>> Department of English    *          *
>>> University of Cincinnati*  * Stellar Disorder  *
>>> OH 45221-0069 *  *
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of 
>>> Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:18 PM
>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> Cc: Bruce Redwine
>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
>>> 
>>> Yes, you provide a good catalogue, but that doesn't explain how he acquired the 
>>> 
>>> interest, why he had it, or how he went about satisfying the craving.  He 
>>> didn't 
>>> 
>>> have the usual introduction to such materials, namely, an English course in 
>>> Shakespeare's contemporaries.  Hard questions to answer, no doubt, but 
>>> important 
>>> 
>>> ones, I think.  This interest is not like collecting pin-ups, model airplanes, 
>> 
>>> baseball cards, or any other such hobbies.  It assumes a fascination for 
>>> esoterica and reminds me of Aleister Crowley and the occult.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> BR
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 28, 2010, at 10:57 AM, James Gifford wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>>> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
>>>>> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
>>>>> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?
>>>> 
>>>> I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do...
>>>> Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially.
>>>> It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form
>>>> and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.  His essays on
>>>> Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a
>>>> university education.
>>>> 
>>>> As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local
>>>> library does.  I'll see.
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> James
>>> 



From james.d.gifford at gmail.com  Sat Oct 30 13:58:11 2010
From: james.d.gifford at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:58:11 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <F4303DA8-BF3C-4B7F-A07C-F3C3FDB769EF@earthlink.net>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>,
	<D3866062-714F-4D4F-BDBE-2F63EEF8BFC2@earthlink.net>	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E4@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>	<9497D0C0-8CFF-4F88-B230-8B2E9461B00F@earthlink.net>	<473273.15648.qm@web65806.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<69812D7C-A77A-4491-8618-EDF8916AA1E6@earthlink.net>	<499980.66452.qm@web65808.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<F4303DA8-BF3C-4B7F-A07C-F3C3FDB769EF@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4CCC86E3.2080108@gmail.com>

Hello all,

The ILDS's most recent past president, Don Kaczvinsky, has been 
interviewed by Pacifica Radio for a partial replaying of their full 
recording of /The Alexandria Quartet/ by the likes of Peter Finch, Julie 
Christie, and so forth.

A link to the recording is online through the ILDS website on the 
podcasts page (anyone who is subscribed to the podcasts will have the 
update rolled out automatically):

http://www.lawrencedurrell.org/podcasts.htm

You can also see Pacficia Radio's full materials online:

http://fromthevaultradio.org/home/2010/10/22/ftv-232-the-alexandria-quartet/

I'm only half-way through, and errands to solve my empty fridge beacon, 
but it's fascinating so far.  I hope others will listen in and post 
comments.  There's also a chance to donate funds toward the full 
digitization of Pacifica Radio Archive's recording of the full Quartet.

Best,
James

From wilded at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 30 15:09:20 2010
From: wilded at hotmail.com (david wilde)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 16:09:20 -0600
Subject: [ilds] death/afterlife
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikX34ZcK=ySYh6+kkV2_fCYkLbk1a38L8i8Rft+@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3920863.266541287510948251.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>,
	<AANLkTikX34ZcK=ySYh6+kkV2_fCYkLbk1a38L8i8Rft+@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY134-W76B0BE27AE17430B97563D8460@phx.gbl>


Dear Dr.  Sharbanibm.  Please do share excerpts.  David Wilde




















Latest News
http://mightyathom.blogspot.com/

 
Books by David Wilde
http://worldcat.org/search?q=wilde+david+1944&x=33&y=17

Art Books
http://www.artmajeur.com/davidwilde
 
(Visiting Fellow, Loughborough University, UK-1973-1980) Contemporary New Mexico Biographer, Writing Tutor, Mss. Prep, English Editing/International Correspondence/ESL Consultant)
 


 

> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 23:59:41 +0530
> From: sharbanibm at gmail.com
> To: laurapais at tiscali.it; ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Subject: Re: [ilds] death/afterlife
> 
> My thesis on Durrell has a chapter on his theory and/or reaction to
> death. I could share exerpts of it if you are interested.
> thanks
> Dr. Sharbani Banerjee
> Associate Professor of English
> T.D.B.College
> Ranigunj
> West Bengal
> INDIA
> 
> On 10/19/10, laurapais at tiscali.it <laurapais at tiscali.it> wrote:
> > DEAR DURRELLIANS, COULD ANYBODY GIVE ME AN INDICATION ABOUT A WORK/S
> > WHERE DURRELL EXPRESSES HIS IDEA/S ABOUT DEATH AND AFTERLIFE?
> > THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED,
> > LAURA PAIS
> > laurapais at tiscali.it
> >
> >
> > Supera i limiti: raddoppia la velocit? da 10 a 20 Mega! Risparmia con Tutto
> > Incluso: telefono + adsl 20 mega a soli 26,60 ? al mese per un anno!SCONTO
> > DI 160
> > EURO!http://abbonati.tiscali.it/telefono-adsl/prodotti/tc/tuttoincluso/?WT.mc_id=01fw
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ILDS mailing list
> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
 		 	   		  
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From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Sat Oct 30 15:39:30 2010
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 09:39:30 +1100
Subject: [ilds] death/afterlife
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikX34ZcK=ySYh6+kkV2_fCYkLbk1a38L8i8Rft+@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3920863.266541287510948251.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
	<AANLkTikX34ZcK=ySYh6+kkV2_fCYkLbk1a38L8i8Rft+@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C6B038EC54F54EA88B61FF47133E0E90@DenisePC>

Fire away, Sir!

DG

--------------------------------------------------
From: "sharbani banerjee" <sharbanibm at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 5:29 AM
To: <laurapais at tiscali.it>; <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Subject: Re: [ilds] death/afterlife

> My thesis on Durrell has a chapter on his theory and/or reaction to
> death. I could share exerpts of it if you are interested.
> thanks
> Dr. Sharbani Banerjee
> Associate Professor of English
> T.D.B.College
> Ranigunj
> West Bengal
> INDIA
>
> On 10/19/10, laurapais at tiscali.it <laurapais at tiscali.it> wrote:
>> DEAR DURRELLIANS, COULD ANYBODY GIVE ME AN INDICATION ABOUT A WORK/S
>> WHERE DURRELL EXPRESSES HIS IDEA/S ABOUT DEATH AND AFTERLIFE?
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED,
>> LAURA PAIS
>> laurapais at tiscali.it
>>
>>
>> Supera i limiti: raddoppia la velocit? da 10 a 20 Mega! Risparmia con 
>> Tutto
>> Incluso: telefono + adsl 20 mega a soli 26,60 ? al mese per un 
>> anno!SCONTO
>> DI 160
>> EURO!http://abbonati.tiscali.it/telefono-adsl/prodotti/tc/tuttoincluso/?WT.mc_id=01fw
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds 


From james.d.gifford at gmail.com  Sat Oct 30 16:32:30 2010
From: james.d.gifford at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 16:32:30 -0700
Subject: [ilds] death/afterlife
In-Reply-To: <C6B038EC54F54EA88B61FF47133E0E90@DenisePC>
References: <3920863.266541287510948251.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>	<AANLkTikX34ZcK=ySYh6+kkV2_fCYkLbk1a38L8i8Rft+@mail.gmail.com>
	<C6B038EC54F54EA88B61FF47133E0E90@DenisePC>
Message-ID: <4CCCAB0E.6000309@gmail.com>

Hello Laura,

Alan Warren Friedman has a very fine book on Death and Modernism, which 
includes a chapter on Durrell.  I've published a couple of related 
things as well, but likely not from a perspective that's helpful to you. 
  If you can't find any of the works listed below, let me know off the list.

Best,
James

Dasenbrock, Reed Way. "Death and the Counterlife of Heresy in Wyndham 
Lewis and Lawrence Durrell." /Deus Loci: The Lawrence Durrell Quarterly/ 
5.1 (1981): 306-327.

Friedman, Alan Warren. "'Not Lost but Gone Before': Durrell and Death." 
/Deus Loci: The Lawrence Durrell Quarterly/ 7.5 (1984): 95-104.

Friedman, Alan Warren. /Fictional Death and the Modernist Enterprise/. 
Cambridge: Cambridge UP, 1995.  (introduction and dedicated chapter)

Gifford, James. "The Phenomenology of Death: Considering Otto Rank, 
Ernest Becker and Herbert Marcuse in Lawrence Durrell's Avignon 
Quintet." /Lawrence Durrell Revisited : Lawrence Durrell revisit?/. Ed. 
Corinne Alexandre-Garner, Corinne. Nanterre: Universit? Paris X, 2002. 
13-38.

Gifford, James. "Self-Authenticity as Social Resistance: Reading Empiric 
Approaches to Social Identity, Self-Esteem, and Fear in Durrell's 
Monsieur." /Culture and the State: Alternative Interventions/. Eds. 
James Gifford & Gabrielle Zezulka-Mailloux. Edmonton: CRC Studio, 2004. 
207-219.

Kaczvinsky, Donald P. "Panic Spring and Durrell's 'Heraldic' Birds of 
Rebirth." /Lawrence Durrell: Comprehending the Whole/. Ed. Julius Rowan 
Raper. Columbia: University of Missouri Press, 1995. 33-44.

MacNiven, Ian S. "Pied Piper of Death: Method and Theme in the Early 
Novels." /On Miracle Ground: Essays on the Fiction of Lawrence Durrell/. 
Ed. Michael Begnal. Lewisburg: Bucknell University Press, 1990. 24-40.

Markert, Lawrence W. "'The Pure and Sacred Readjustment of Death': 
Connections between Lawrence Durrell's Avignon Quintet and the Writings 
of D. H. Lawrence." /Twentieth Century Literature: A Scholarly and 
Critical Journal/ 33.4 (1987): 550-564.

Pharand, Michel W. "Personal Neurasthenia: Eros and Thanatos in the 
Poetry of Lawrence Durrell." /Deus Loci: The Lawrence Durrell Journal/ 
NS 3 (1994): 98-112



> On 10/19/10, laurapais at tiscali.it<laurapais at tiscali.it>  wrote:
> DEAR DURRELLIANS, COULD ANYBODY GIVE ME AN INDICATION ABOUT A WORK/S
> WHERE DURRELL EXPRESSES HIS IDEA/S ABOUT DEATH AND AFTERLIFE?
> THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED,
> LAURA PAIS
> laurapais at tiscali.it

From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Sat Oct 30 17:14:52 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 20:14:52 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <473273.15648.qm@web65806.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>,
	<D3866062-714F-4D4F-BDBE-2F63EEF8BFC2@earthlink.net>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E4@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<9497D0C0-8CFF-4F88-B230-8B2E9461B00F@earthlink.net>,
	<473273.15648.qm@web65806.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441F4@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

Thanks, Richard. That's very helpful -- although it would have been nice to have an annotated copy of the BB. 

Bill


W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Richard Pine [rpinecorfu at yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 10:06 AM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book

Apart from LD's manifold notes for his projected book on 'The Writer in
Elizabethan England', we know that he possessed the following (although
unfortunately we cannot be sure of the dates on which he acquired them, despite
his generalised letters to Alan Thomas in relation to his 'Elizas'):
- The Plays of John Marston  ed H Harvey Wood, 3 vols, 1934 (heavily annotated)
- The Works of Thomas Nashe, ed R B McKerrow, 1904-8 (LD had vols 2-5)
Annotations to vols 2-4 (not vol 5) suggest that he had read these before
writing The Black Book
- The Three Parnassus Plays, ed J B Leishman, 1949 - heavily annotated but
post-BB
- The Complete Works of John Webster, ed F L Lucas, 4 vols, 1927, annotations to
vols 1, 3, 4.
- Revenger's Tragedy, ed G B Harrison, 1934
- The Miscellaneous Works in Prose and Verse of Sir Thomas Overbury Knt, ed E F
Rimbault, 1890 (I mention LD's notes to this in my Mindscape)
- Sir John Harrington's A New Discourse of a Stale Subject, Called the
Metamorphosis of Ajax ed E S Donno, 1962 (obviously post-BB, but extensively
annotated)
-  also, publications of the Hunterian Club (published in the 1870s): Diogenes
Lanthorne by Samuel Rowlands (1607); The Divel Coniured by Thomas Lodge (1596;
the copy is uncut); Greenes Ghost by Rowlands (1602; uncut); Scillaes
Metamorphosis by Lodge (1589); Catharos Diogenes  by Lodge (1591; uncut); A
Paire of Spy-Knaves by Rowlands (1613?; uncut); Tis Merrie when Gossips Meete by
Rowlands (1602; uncut); Martin Markall Beadle of Bridewell by Rowlands (1610);
The Wounds of Civil War by Lodge (1594; uncut); Humors Looking Glasse by
Rowlands (1608); A Whole Crew of Kind Gossips by Rowlands (1609); The
Melancholie Knight by Rowlands (1615).
Where LD has cut the pages, he has in most cases made marginal notes

He also had quite an extensive library of critical works on Shakespeare and his
contemporaries, in most cases heavily underlined and noted.

RP


----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
Sent: Fri, October 29, 2010 5:39:58 AM
Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book

Bill,

I find this topic fascinating and inexplicable ? how a young man, possibly a
late adolescent, without the usual academic background, could have become
enthralled with obscure Elizabethans and Jacobeans, those poets and playwrights
completely overshadowed by Shakespeare.  You just don't get copies of Middleton,
Marston, Dekker, etc. by walking into your local library or bookstore, circa
1930.  It seems to me to show something both indicative and important about his
personality.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the subject.


Bruce



On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:

> Durrell did have a strong interest in Renaissance/Early Modern poetry and
>drama. I don't know why, how, where, when, he got this bug. Has anyone checked
>Ian McNiven?
>
>
> Durrell did suggest in the TLS  that Marlowe was the rival poet of
>Shakespeare's sonnets. The attribution is questionable, but it does indicate
>Durrell's ongoing interest in the period.
>
> Bill
>
>
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English    *          *
> University of Cincinnati*  * Stellar Disorder  *
> OH 45221-0069 *  *
> ________________________________________
> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of
>Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:18 PM
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
>
> Yes, you provide a good catalogue, but that doesn't explain how he acquired the
>interest, why he had it, or how he went about satisfying the craving.  He didn't
>have the usual introduction to such materials, namely, an English course in
>Shakespeare's contemporaries.  Hard questions to answer, no doubt, but important
>ones, I think.  This interest is not like collecting pin-ups, model airplanes,
>baseball cards, or any other such hobbies.  It assumes a fascination for
>esoterica and reminds me of Aleister Crowley and the occult.
>
>
> BR
>
>
>
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 10:57 AM, James Gifford wrote:
>
>> On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
>>> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
>>> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?
>>
>> I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do...
>> Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially.
>> It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form
>> and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.  His essays on
>> Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a
>> university education.
>>
>> As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local
>> library does.  I'll see.
>>
>> Best,
>> James
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds





_______________________________________________
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ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Sat Oct 30 17:17:06 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 20:17:06 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <32366234.1288394136894.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <32366234.1288394136894.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441F5@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

Yes,

action and passion were all of the fashion. And still are.


W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of gkoger at mindspring.com [gkoger at mindspring.com]
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 7:15 PM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book

I think that Bill's "guess" explains much about Durrell's literary interests. He appreciated the excitement and color and boldness of all kinds of lit--not just the kind that proper students are taught to revere and dissect. His "Minor Mythologies" piece makes that obvious.

In this connection I'm reminded of the title of one of P.C. Wren's books, /Action and Passion/. (Borrowed from O.W. Holmes?) Don't those two words sum up many of our reasons for reading? And living?

Grove


Bill: "Why was Durrell interested in the English Renaissance I do not know, but I can guess. It was and is terribly romantic -- sex and violence, whore houses and playhouses side by side with bear and bull baiting. Link this to a queen who seems to have had hot sex, but no living children. Congenital syphilis? The New World? Capitalism? Marlowe was a government spy who came in from the cold only to be bumped off by Walsingham's agent -- maybe."



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From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Sat Oct 30 17:25:52 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 20:25:52 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <69812D7C-A77A-4491-8618-EDF8916AA1E6@earthlink.net>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>,
	<D3866062-714F-4D4F-BDBE-2F63EEF8BFC2@earthlink.net>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E4@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<9497D0C0-8CFF-4F88-B230-8B2E9461B00F@earthlink.net>
	<473273.15648.qm@web65806.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>,
	<69812D7C-A77A-4491-8618-EDF8916AA1E6@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441F7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

Richard, has anyone done a complete analysis of D's knowledge of Ren Lit. You (Richard) have done some work in this field. It looks like a large project.

Bill
W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 10:57 AM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Cc: Bruce Redwine
Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book

My goodness.  Many of these writers I've never heard of.


BR



On Oct 30, 2010, at 7:06 AM, Richard Pine wrote:

> Apart from LD's manifold notes for his projected book on 'The Writer in
> Elizabethan England', we know that he possessed the following (although
> unfortunately we cannot be sure of the dates on which he acquired them, despite
> his generalised letters to Alan Thomas in relation to his 'Elizas'):
> - The Plays of John Marston  ed H Harvey Wood, 3 vols, 1934 (heavily annotated)
> - The Works of Thomas Nashe, ed R B McKerrow, 1904-8 (LD had vols 2-5)
> Annotations to vols 2-4 (not vol 5) suggest that he had read these before
> writing The Black Book
> - The Three Parnassus Plays, ed J B Leishman, 1949 - heavily annotated but
> post-BB
> - The Complete Works of John Webster, ed F L Lucas, 4 vols, 1927, annotations to
> vols 1, 3, 4.
> - Revenger's Tragedy, ed G B Harrison, 1934
> - The Miscellaneous Works in Prose and Verse of Sir Thomas Overbury Knt, ed E F
> Rimbault, 1890 (I mention LD's notes to this in my Mindscape)
> - Sir John Harrington's A New Discourse of a Stale Subject, Called the
> Metamorphosis of Ajax ed E S Donno, 1962 (obviously post-BB, but extensively
> annotated)
> -  also, publications of the Hunterian Club (published in the 1870s): Diogenes
> Lanthorne by Samuel Rowlands (1607); The Divel Coniured by Thomas Lodge (1596;
> the copy is uncut); Greenes Ghost by Rowlands (1602; uncut); Scillaes
> Metamorphosis by Lodge (1589); Catharos Diogenes  by Lodge (1591; uncut); A
> Paire of Spy-Knaves by Rowlands (1613?; uncut); Tis Merrie when Gossips Meete by
> Rowlands (1602; uncut); Martin Markall Beadle of Bridewell by Rowlands (1610);
> The Wounds of Civil War by Lodge (1594; uncut); Humors Looking Glasse by
> Rowlands (1608); A Whole Crew of Kind Gossips by Rowlands (1609); The
> Melancholie Knight by Rowlands (1615).
> Where LD has cut the pages, he has in most cases made marginal notes
>
> He also had quite an extensive library of critical works on Shakespeare and his
> contemporaries, in most cases heavily underlined and noted.
>
> RP
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Sent: Fri, October 29, 2010 5:39:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
>
> Bill,
>
> I find this topic fascinating and inexplicable ? how a young man, possibly a
> late adolescent, without the usual academic background, could have become
> enthralled with obscure Elizabethans and Jacobeans, those poets and playwrights
> completely overshadowed by Shakespeare.  You just don't get copies of Middleton,
> Marston, Dekker, etc. by walking into your local library or bookstore, circa
> 1930.  It seems to me to show something both indicative and important about his
> personality.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the subject.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:
>
>> Durrell did have a strong interest in Renaissance/Early Modern poetry and
>> drama. I don't know why, how, where, when, he got this bug. Has anyone checked
>> Ian McNiven?
>>
>>
>> Durrell did suggest in the TLS  that Marlowe was the rival poet of
>> Shakespeare's sonnets. The attribution is questionable, but it does indicate
>> Durrell's ongoing interest in the period.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> W. L. Godshalk *
>> Department of English    *          *
>> University of Cincinnati*  * Stellar Disorder  *
>> OH 45221-0069 *  *
>> ________________________________________
>> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of
>> Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:18 PM
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Cc: Bruce Redwine
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
>>
>> Yes, you provide a good catalogue, but that doesn't explain how he acquired the
>> interest, why he had it, or how he went about satisfying the craving.  He didn't
>> have the usual introduction to such materials, namely, an English course in
>> Shakespeare's contemporaries.  Hard questions to answer, no doubt, but important
>> ones, I think.  This interest is not like collecting pin-ups, model airplanes,
>> baseball cards, or any other such hobbies.  It assumes a fascination for
>> esoterica and reminds me of Aleister Crowley and the occult.
>>
>>
>> BR
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 28, 2010, at 10:57 AM, James Gifford wrote:
>>
>>> On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
>>>> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
>>>> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?
>>>
>>> I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do...
>>> Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially.
>>> It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form
>>> and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.  His essays on
>>> Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a
>>> university education.
>>>
>>> As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local
>>> library does.  I'll see.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> James
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Sat Oct 30 17:52:54 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 20:52:54 -0400
Subject: [ilds] The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441EE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441EE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441F9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

I should have written: if you ARE  at work on The Black Book, please let me know. I have begun. 

Bill 



W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Godshalk, William (godshawl) [godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu]
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 7:56 PM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Subject: [ilds] The Black Book

W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
I'm assuming that other members of the Durrell Soc are hard at work on these Black Books.

I'f you are not, please let me now. I don't want to waste my time.

Bill
_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From rpinecorfu at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 31 02:20:52 2010
From: rpinecorfu at yahoo.com (Richard Pine)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 02:20:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441F7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>,
	<D3866062-714F-4D4F-BDBE-2F63EEF8BFC2@earthlink.net>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E4@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<9497D0C0-8CFF-4F88-B230-8B2E9461B00F@earthlink.net>
	<473273.15648.qm@web65806.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>,
	<69812D7C-A77A-4491-8618-EDF8916AA1E6@earthlink.net>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441F7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <148098.21521.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

As far as I know, the answer is 'no', although my own study of 'Minor 
Mythologies' will try to address the issue(s), but by no means comprehensively. 
RP



----- Original Message ----
From: "Godshalk, William (godshawl)" <godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu>
To: "ilds at lists.uvic.ca" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Sun, October 31, 2010 3:25:52 AM
Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book

Richard, has anyone done a complete analysis of D's knowledge of Ren Lit. You 
(Richard) have done some work in this field. It looks like a large project.

Bill
W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English? ? *? ? ? ? ? *
University of Cincinnati*? * Stellar Disorder? *
OH 45221-0069 *? *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce 
Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 10:57 AM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Cc: Bruce Redwine
Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book

My goodness.? Many of these writers I've never heard of.


BR



On Oct 30, 2010, at 7:06 AM, Richard Pine wrote:

> Apart from LD's manifold notes for his projected book on 'The Writer in
> Elizabethan England', we know that he possessed the following (although
> unfortunately we cannot be sure of the dates on which he acquired them, 
despite
> his generalised letters to Alan Thomas in relation to his 'Elizas'):
> - The Plays of John Marston? ed H Harvey Wood, 3 vols, 1934 (heavily 
annotated)
> - The Works of Thomas Nashe, ed R B McKerrow, 1904-8 (LD had vols 2-5)
> Annotations to vols 2-4 (not vol 5) suggest that he had read these before
> writing The Black Book
> - The Three Parnassus Plays, ed J B Leishman, 1949 - heavily annotated but
> post-BB
> - The Complete Works of John Webster, ed F L Lucas, 4 vols, 1927, annotations 
>to
> vols 1, 3, 4.
> - Revenger's Tragedy, ed G B Harrison, 1934
> - The Miscellaneous Works in Prose and Verse of Sir Thomas Overbury Knt, ed E 
F
> Rimbault, 1890 (I mention LD's notes to this in my Mindscape)
> - Sir John Harrington's A New Discourse of a Stale Subject, Called the
> Metamorphosis of Ajax ed E S Donno, 1962 (obviously post-BB, but extensively
> annotated)
> -? also, publications of the Hunterian Club (published in the 1870s): Diogenes
> Lanthorne by Samuel Rowlands (1607); The Divel Coniured by Thomas Lodge (1596;
> the copy is uncut); Greenes Ghost by Rowlands (1602; uncut); Scillaes
> Metamorphosis by Lodge (1589); Catharos Diogenes? by Lodge (1591; uncut); A
> Paire of Spy-Knaves by Rowlands (1613?; uncut); Tis Merrie when Gossips Meete 
>by
> Rowlands (1602; uncut); Martin Markall Beadle of Bridewell by Rowlands (1610);
> The Wounds of Civil War by Lodge (1594; uncut); Humors Looking Glasse by
> Rowlands (1608); A Whole Crew of Kind Gossips by Rowlands (1609); The
> Melancholie Knight by Rowlands (1615).
> Where LD has cut the pages, he has in most cases made marginal notes
>
> He also had quite an extensive library of critical works on Shakespeare and 
his
> contemporaries, in most cases heavily underlined and noted.
>
> RP
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Sent: Fri, October 29, 2010 5:39:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
>
> Bill,
>
> I find this topic fascinating and inexplicable ? how a young man, possibly a
> late adolescent, without the usual academic background, could have become
> enthralled with obscure Elizabethans and Jacobeans, those poets and 
playwrights
> completely overshadowed by Shakespeare.? You just don't get copies of 
>Middleton,
> Marston, Dekker, etc. by walking into your local library or bookstore, circa
> 1930.? It seems to me to show something both indicative and important about 
his
> personality.? Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the subject.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:
>
>> Durrell did have a strong interest in Renaissance/Early Modern poetry and
>> drama. I don't know why, how, where, when, he got this bug. Has anyone 
checked
>> Ian McNiven?
>>
>>
>> Durrell did suggest in the TLS? that Marlowe was the rival poet of
>> Shakespeare's sonnets. The attribution is questionable, but it does indicate
>> Durrell's ongoing interest in the period.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> W. L. Godshalk *
>> Department of English? ? *? ? ? ? ? *
>> University of Cincinnati*? * Stellar Disorder? *
>> OH 45221-0069 *? *
>> ________________________________________
>> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of
>> Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:18 PM
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Cc: Bruce Redwine
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
>>
>> Yes, you provide a good catalogue, but that doesn't explain how he acquired 
>the
>> interest, why he had it, or how he went about satisfying the craving.? He 
>>didn't
>> have the usual introduction to such materials, namely, an English course in
>> Shakespeare's contemporaries.? Hard questions to answer, no doubt, but 
>>important
>> ones, I think.? This interest is not like collecting pin-ups, model 
airplanes,
>> baseball cards, or any other such hobbies.? It assumes a fascination for
>> esoterica and reminds me of Aleister Crowley and the occult.
>>
>>
>> BR
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 28, 2010, at 10:57 AM, James Gifford wrote:
>>
>>> On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
>>>> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
>>>> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?
>>>
>>> I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do...
>>> Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially.
>>> It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form
>>> and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.? His essays on
>>> Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a
>>> university education.
>>>
>>> As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local
>>> library does.? I'll see.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> James
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



      


From rpinecorfu at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 31 02:15:50 2010
From: rpinecorfu at yahoo.com (Richard Pine)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 02:15:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
In-Reply-To: <F4303DA8-BF3C-4B7F-A07C-F3C3FDB769EF@earthlink.net>
References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441DE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<A5F46F44-81AF-4F8F-8346-FD9F55737808@earthlink.net>
	<4CC9B978.1040306@gmail.com>,
	<D3866062-714F-4D4F-BDBE-2F63EEF8BFC2@earthlink.net>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C64D0441E4@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<9497D0C0-8CFF-4F88-B230-8B2E9461B00F@earthlink.net>
	<473273.15648.qm@web65806.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<69812D7C-A77A-4491-8618-EDF8916AA1E6@earthlink.net>
	<499980.66452.qm@web65808.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<F4303DA8-BF3C-4B7F-A07C-F3C3FDB769EF@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <270366.49143.qm@web65801.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Most of us would wish that he had written it - only his friend Richard Aldington 
said 'we all [who are 'we all'?] besought him not to do, as it would annoy his 
novel-readers. But if he can do one or two successful plays, the pot will boil 
and he will be kept out of literary mischief' - quoted in R Pine, Lawrence 
Durrell - the Mindscape 2nd edn p. 132.



----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
Sent: Sat, October 30, 2010 11:17:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book

Which only increases my amazement that Durrell would pursue such an abstruse 
topic.? I wish he had written that "Elizabethan book."? That would have been 
revealing in at least a couple of ways:? about the subject and about the 
author.? Thanks for the info.


BR



On Oct 30, 2010, at 8:59 AM, Richard Pine wrote:

> In preparation for his 'Elizabethan' book, LD made biographical notes on (as 
>far 
>
> as I can recall) 57 writers - most of them unknown today. RP
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Sent: Sat, October 30, 2010 5:57:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
> 
> My goodness.? Many of these writers I've never heard of.
> 
> 
> BR
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 30, 2010, at 7:06 AM, Richard Pine wrote:
> 
>> Apart from LD's manifold notes for his projected book on 'The Writer in 
>> Elizabethan England', we know that he possessed the following (although 
>> unfortunately we cannot be sure of the dates on which he acquired them, despite 
>>
>> 
>> his generalised letters to Alan Thomas in relation to his 'Elizas'):
>> - The Plays of John Marston? ed H Harvey Wood, 3 vols, 1934 (heavily 
> annotated)
>> - The Works of Thomas Nashe, ed R B McKerrow, 1904-8 (LD had vols 2-5) 
>> Annotations to vols 2-4 (not vol 5) suggest that he had read these before 
>> writing The Black Book
>> - The Three Parnassus Plays, ed J B Leishman, 1949 - heavily annotated but 
>> post-BB
>> - The Complete Works of John Webster, ed F L Lucas, 4 vols, 1927, annotations 

>> to 
>> 
>> vols 1, 3, 4.
>> - Revenger's Tragedy, ed G B Harrison, 1934
>> - The Miscellaneous Works in Prose and Verse of Sir Thomas Overbury Knt, ed E F 
>>
>> 
>> Rimbault, 1890 (I mention LD's notes to this in my Mindscape)
>> - Sir John Harrington's A New Discourse of a Stale Subject, Called the 
>> Metamorphosis of Ajax ed E S Donno, 1962 (obviously post-BB, but extensively 
>> annotated)
>> -? also, publications of the Hunterian Club (published in the 1870s): Diogenes 
>
> 
>> Lanthorne by Samuel Rowlands (1607); The Divel Coniured by Thomas Lodge (1596; 
>
> 
>> the copy is uncut); Greenes Ghost by Rowlands (1602; uncut); Scillaes 
>> Metamorphosis by Lodge (1589); Catharos Diogenes? by Lodge (1591; uncut); A 
>> Paire of Spy-Knaves by Rowlands (1613?; uncut); Tis Merrie when Gossips Meete 

>> by 
>> 
>> Rowlands (1602; uncut); Martin Markall Beadle of Bridewell by Rowlands (1610); 
>
> 
>> The Wounds of Civil War by Lodge (1594; uncut); Humors Looking Glasse by 
>> Rowlands (1608); A Whole Crew of Kind Gossips by Rowlands (1609); The 
>> Melancholie Knight by Rowlands (1615).
>> Where LD has cut the pages, he has in most cases made marginal notes
>> 
>> He also had quite an extensive library of critical works on Shakespeare and his 
>>
>> 
>> contemporaries, in most cases heavily underlined and noted.
>> 
>> RP
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>> Sent: Fri, October 29, 2010 5:39:58 AM
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
>> 
>> Bill,
>> 
>> I find this topic fascinating and inexplicable ? how a young man, possibly a 
>> late adolescent, without the usual academic background, could have become 
>> enthralled with obscure Elizabethans and Jacobeans, those poets and playwrights 
>>
>> 
>> completely overshadowed by Shakespeare.? You just don't get copies of 
>> Middleton, 
>> 
>> Marston, Dekker, etc. by walking into your local library or bookstore, circa 
>> 1930.? It seems to me to show something both indicative and important about his 
>>
>> 
>> personality.? Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the subject.
>> 
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:
>> 
>>> Durrell did have a strong interest in Renaissance/Early Modern poetry and 
>>> drama. I don't know why, how, where, when, he got this bug. Has anyone checked 
>>
>> 
>>> Ian McNiven? 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Durrell did suggest in the TLS? that Marlowe was the rival poet of 
>>> Shakespeare's sonnets. The attribution is questionable, but it does indicate 

>>> Durrell's ongoing interest in the period.
>>> 
>>> Bill
>>> 
>>> 
>>> W. L. Godshalk *
>>> Department of English? ? *? ? ? ? ? *
>>> University of Cincinnati*? * Stellar Disorder? *
>>> OH 45221-0069 *? *
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of 
>>> Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net]
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:18 PM
>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> Cc: Bruce Redwine
>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Lawrence Lucifer and Middleton's The Black Book
>>> 
>>> Yes, you provide a good catalogue, but that doesn't explain how he acquired the 
>>>
>>> 
>>> interest, why he had it, or how he went about satisfying the craving.? He 
>>> didn't 
>>> 
>>> have the usual introduction to such materials, namely, an English course in 
>>> Shakespeare's contemporaries.? Hard questions to answer, no doubt, but 
>>> important 
>>> 
>>> ones, I think.? This interest is not like collecting pin-ups, model airplanes, 
>>
>> 
>>> baseball cards, or any other such hobbies.? It assumes a fascination for 
>>> esoterica and reminds me of Aleister Crowley and the occult.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> BR
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 28, 2010, at 10:57 AM, James Gifford wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 28/10/10 10:46 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>>> other questions pop up ? how would Durrell been aware of
>>>>> such an obscure work? How and where did he get the nose of a
>>>>> hard-working scholar of Jacobean minutiae?
>>>> 
>>>> I hate to say "take a look at my critical editions," but, well, do...
>>>> Durrell had quite a nose for such works and read in them substantially.
>>>> It pops up extensively in his first two novels in a fairly overt form
>>>> and then surfaces again in his third, /The Black Book/.? His essays on
>>>> Elizabethan writers are well informed for someone who never had a
>>>> university education.
>>>> 
>>>> As for Middleton, I don't have a copy either ($$), but maybe my local
>>>> library does.? I'll see.
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> James
>>> 


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