[ilds] Copts in Egypt

Fri Aug 13 15:55:48 PDT 2010

No offense intended, but Lawrence Durrell makes a distinction between the Copts and the general Egyptian population.  He fully develops his Coptic theme in Mountolive (Penguin 1991).  Here is what Durrell has Mr. Hosnani, Sr., say about his Coptic roots:  "'Do you know what they call us — the Moslems? . . . I will tell you.  Gins Pharoony.  Yes, we are genus Pharaonicus — the true descendants of the ancients, the true marrow of Egypt.  We call ourselves Gypt — ancient Egyptians.  Yet we are Christians like you, only of the oldest and purest strain'" (p. 41).

As I said before, I believe most Egyptians are in fact descendants of the ancient Egyptians.  That population, however, speaks Arabic, as a consequence of Amr's invasion in 641 CE.  A version of the original Egyptian language is preserved in the liturgy of the Coptic Church, and the Copts, who are Christians, think of themselves as a distinct minority within Egypt — and as Tarek Heggy, an Egyptian Muslim, has pointed out, Copts are treated differently.  This distinctiveness is what Durrell picks up on and elaborates in the Quartet.  So, I would not call Durrell's usage of "Copt" and all its connotations a "new trend."

Bruce

On Aug 13, 2010, at 2:12 PM, nabila marzouk wrote:

> Dear group,
> It hurts very much, I mean the new trend of saying that copts are the true descendents of ancient Egyptians. I donot know based on what  this rumour is so widely spread. As an Egyptian muslim I am the descendent of king Thut and queen Hatshpsut. When we celebrate anything national here we dress like ancient egyptians and talk about their glorious history. We never speak of ourselves as arabs or think that we have any arabic ancestors. Read history and you will know that most of the Egyptian muslims were descendents of a certain creed of Egyptian Christians who differed immensely from Orthodox church and also of christians who embraced Islam. Read history and you will know that when Amr left Egypt only no more than ten thousand arabic people stayed behind. Read history and you will know that it took Egypt more than 300 years to have the Islamic majority she has now which negates the idea that muslims are descendents of arabs while christians are descendents of ancient egyptians, otherwise I can say that christians are descendents of the Romans. The word copt should be used to refer to both muslims and christians because it means egyptian in ancient egyptian language. Please do not speak about me as if I were less Egyptian than I really am.
> nabila
> 
> --- On Wed, 7/28/10, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Copts in Egypt
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Date: Wednesday, July 28, 2010, 11:34 AM
> 
> Thanks, Richard.
> 
> Charles, what do Durrell's notebooks for Justine, or other writings, have to say about the genesis of the Hosnanis?  Any suggestions about why he decided to make the family Coptic instead of Jewish?
> 
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 28, 2010, at 1:43 AM, Richard Pine wrote:
> 
>> I don't have the references to hand, but I think there has been at least one suggestion that Nessim was partly modelled on a member of the Boutros Galli family, maybe the Boutros Boutros Galli who became Sec-Gen of the UN. That family (Coptic) was certainly influential within Egyptian politics and society.
>> RP
>> 
>> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>> Sent: Tue, July 27, 2010 7:59:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Copts in Egypt
>> 
>> Richard,
>> 
>> Thanks for the comment and citations.  I'll check them out.  Any thoughts on why the Hosnanis in the Quartet are Copts and not Jews?  I do not think Durrell made that move simply because he wanted to avoid any entanglements or "hot issues."
>> 
>> I'll add this personal anecdote.  When I was in Egypt in 2007, we visited the Coptic monastery at Wadi Natrun, at the edge of the western desert, about two hours from Alexandria.  Crowds of Copts were visiting the monastery, and I was most impressed by their devotion:  men chanting in Arabic before an icon of the Virgin and reading an inscription along the margins of the painting, women touching and kissing the relics, and visitors approaching the monks, kissing their hands, and getting blessed.  The Copts are very religious and the true descendants of the Ancient Egyptians.  They speak Arabic, but Coptic is preserved in the liturgy of their religious service, and it is a direct descendant of Ancient Egyptian.
>> 
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jul 27, 2010, at 8:43 AM, Richard Pine wrote:
>> 
>>> Thanks very much for that article.
>>> It is worth considering:
>>> 1) (and I know Michael Haag disagrees with the interpretations in this volume) Michael Diboll, Lawrence Durrell's Alexandria Quartet in its Egyptian Contexts (Mellen Press 2004) and
>>> 2) B.L. Carter, The Copts in Egyptian Politics (Croom Helm, 1986).
>>> Athens News (2005) carried a 3-part series on Cairo's cultures, the first part of which (4 March 2005) by Alex Penmann, concentrated on the 'Coptic Christians of Cairo'.
>>>  
>>> RP
>>> 
>>> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>> To: Durrell list <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>> Sent: Tue, July 27, 2010 6:14:26 PM
>>> Subject: [ilds] Copts in Egypt
>>> 
>>> Attached is an informative and well-written article by Tarek Heggy, an Egyptian writer and intellectual, who discusses the plight of the Copts in Egypt today:  "The Tragedy of Egypt's Copts" (forthcoming, ©2010).  The Copts comprise about 20% of the Egyptian population, and many, as Heggy notes, play an important role in the country's financial institutions.  Lawrence Durrell's portrait of Coptic concerns and interests in the Quartet, if not the Hosnani solution, was largely accurate and prescient.  I believe, however, that Michael Haag takes Durrell's depiction of the Copts as a screen for the Jewish situation in Egypt during the 1930s and 1940s.  He can correct me, if I'm wrong.  Screen, in the psychological sense, is a kind of subterfuge, a way to avoid confronting something directly.  Assuming the Coptic theme in the Quartet is a screen, why would Durrell use that device?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> BR
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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