From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 27 08:14:26 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:14:26 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Copts in Egypt
Message-ID: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>

Attached is an informative and well-written article by Tarek Heggy, an Egyptian writer and intellectual, who discusses the plight of the Copts in Egypt today:  "The Tragedy of Egypt's Copts" (forthcoming, ?2010).  The Copts comprise about 20% of the Egyptian population, and many, as Heggy notes, play an important role in the country's financial institutions.  Lawrence Durrell's portrait of Coptic concerns and interests in the Quartet, if not the Hosnani solution, was largely accurate and prescient.  I believe, however, that Michael Haag takes Durrell's depiction of the Copts as a screen for the Jewish situation in Egypt during the 1930s and 1940s.  He can correct me, if I'm wrong.  Screen, in the psychological sense, is a kind of subterfuge, a way to avoid confronting something directly.  Assuming the Coptic theme in the Quartet is a screen, why would Durrell use that device?


BR




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From rpinecorfu at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 27 08:43:32 2010
From: rpinecorfu at yahoo.com (Richard Pine)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:43:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ilds] Copts in Egypt
In-Reply-To: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Thanks very much for that article.
It is worth considering: 
1) (and I know Michael Haag disagrees with the interpretations in this volume) 
Michael Diboll, Lawrence Durrell's Alexandria Quartet in its Egyptian Contexts 
(Mellen Press 2004) and
2) B.L. Carter, The Copts in Egyptian Politics (Croom Helm, 1986).
Athens News (2005) carried a 3-part series on Cairo's cultures, the first part 
of which (4 March 2005) by Alex Penmann, concentrated on the 'Coptic Christians 
of Cairo'.

RP




________________________________
From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: Durrell list <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
Sent: Tue, July 27, 2010 6:14:26 PM
Subject: [ilds] Copts in Egypt

Attached is an informative and well-written article by Tarek Heggy, an Egyptian 
writer and intellectual, who discusses the plight of the Copts in Egypt today: 
?"The Tragedy of Egypt's Copts" (forthcoming, ?2010). ?The Copts comprise about 
20% of the Egyptian population, and many, as Heggy notes, play an important role 
in the country's financial institutions. ?Lawrence Durrell's portrait of Coptic 
concerns and interests in the Quartet, if not the Hosnani solution, was largely 
accurate and prescient. ?I believe, however, that Michael Haag takes Durrell's 
depiction of the Copts as a screen for the Jewish situation in Egypt during the 
1930s and 1940s. ?He can correct me, if I'm wrong. ?Screen, in the psychological 
sense, is a kind of subterfuge, a way to avoid confronting something directly. 
?Assuming the Coptic theme in the Quartet is a screen, why would Durrell use 
that device? 



BR


      
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 27 09:59:06 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 09:59:06 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Copts in Egypt
In-Reply-To: <166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>

Richard,

Thanks for the comment and citations.  I'll check them out.  Any thoughts on why the Hosnanis in the Quartet are Copts and not Jews?  I do not think Durrell made that move simply because he wanted to avoid any entanglements or "hot issues."

I'll add this personal anecdote.  When I was in Egypt in 2007, we visited the Coptic monastery at Wadi Natrun, at the edge of the western desert, about two hours from Alexandria.  Crowds of Copts were visiting the monastery, and I was most impressed by their devotion:  men chanting in Arabic before an icon of the Virgin and reading an inscription along the margins of the painting, women touching and kissing the relics, and visitors approaching the monks, kissing their hands, and getting blessed.  The Copts are very religious and the true descendants of the Ancient Egyptians.  They speak Arabic, but Coptic is preserved in the liturgy of their religious service, and it is a direct descendant of Ancient Egyptian.


Bruce




On Jul 27, 2010, at 8:43 AM, Richard Pine wrote:

> Thanks very much for that article.
> It is worth considering:
> 1) (and I know Michael Haag disagrees with the interpretations in this volume) Michael Diboll, Lawrence Durrell's Alexandria Quartet in its Egyptian Contexts (Mellen Press 2004) and
> 2) B.L. Carter, The Copts in Egyptian Politics (Croom Helm, 1986).
> Athens News (2005) carried a 3-part series on Cairo's cultures, the first part of which (4 March 2005) by Alex Penmann, concentrated on the 'Coptic Christians of Cairo'.
>  
> RP
> 
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> To: Durrell list <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Sent: Tue, July 27, 2010 6:14:26 PM
> Subject: [ilds] Copts in Egypt
> 
> Attached is an informative and well-written article by Tarek Heggy, an Egyptian writer and intellectual, who discusses the plight of the Copts in Egypt today:  "The Tragedy of Egypt's Copts" (forthcoming, ?2010).  The Copts comprise about 20% of the Egyptian population, and many, as Heggy notes, play an important role in the country's financial institutions.  Lawrence Durrell's portrait of Coptic concerns and interests in the Quartet, if not the Hosnani solution, was largely accurate and prescient.  I believe, however, that Michael Haag takes Durrell's depiction of the Copts as a screen for the Jewish situation in Egypt during the 1930s and 1940s.  He can correct me, if I'm wrong.  Screen, in the psychological sense, is a kind of subterfuge, a way to avoid confronting something directly.  Assuming the Coptic theme in the Quartet is a screen, why would Durrell use that device?
> 
> 
> BR
> 

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From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu  Tue Jul 27 10:58:28 2010
From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 13:58:28 -0400
Subject: [ilds] "necessary liberties"
In-Reply-To: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4C4F1E44.4040006@utc.edu>

Thanks to Richard and Bruce for what they share.

Bruce mentions Michael Haag's work on the Coptic "plot" in the 
/Quartet/. Here follow two important moments from MH's writings:

>         [Durrell] had not thought beyond Justine, and it was this one
>         volume alone that he described, even as he was writing it in
>         Cyprus, as ?4-dimensional?. The woman who changed everything
>         was Claude Vincendon, of the Jewish Alexandrian banking family
>         Menasce (not Menasche). But it was not because she imposed
>         order on his notes; Justine was all but complete when she and
>         Durrell met in Cyprus in 1955, but she provided the
>         information and inspiration to turn a single volume into a
>         quartet.
>
>         Durrell and Claude had not previously met in Alexandria, but
>         he had known members of her family there during the war, and
>         when she walked into his life in Nicosia she revealed to him
>         that they had been secretly pursuing Zionist activities in
>         Egypt, which included financing immigration and arms to
>         Palestine under the noses of the British. Durrell, who had
>         been working at the British Information Office in Alexandria
>         in the rue Toussoun (not rue Ch?rif Pasha) and who was close
>         to people in British intelligence, might have been expected to
>         know about this Palestine plot, but he did not, and the
>         revelation overturned his impressions of Alexandrian reality
>         (just as Darley?s sense of reality alters through the volumes
>         that succeed Justine) and led Durrell to conceive the notion
>         of using Claude?s uncle George de Menasce and other Zionist
>         members of her family as models for the fictional Nessim
>         Hosnani and his family, whom Durrell implausibly portrays as
>         pro-Zionist Copts in the Quartet.
>         http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/the_tls/article4665956.ece

        ******
        ******

        /Alexandria: city of memory/
        By Michael Haag

>         But the Copts have always been resolutely Egyptian and
>         anti-Zionist, and would never have lent themselves to any such
>         conspiracy (277+).
>         http://books.google.com/books?id=3OhK6S_qIZoC&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=haag+zionist+durrell+copts&source=bl&ots=aGG0iBXKto&sig=gTDi81hVAnElrZ0p0tHvjYL_jfo&hl=en&ei=VflOTP2yG8P-8Aar973sDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

-- 
********************************************
Charles L. Sligh
Assistant Professor
Department of English
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
charles-sligh at utc.edu
********************************************


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 27 13:28:41 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 13:28:41 -0700
Subject: [ilds] "necessary liberties"
In-Reply-To: <4C4F1E44.4040006@utc.edu>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<4C4F1E44.4040006@utc.edu>
Message-ID: <63B2D139-047B-4043-861B-A4EF5586EC78@earthlink.net>

Charles,

Thanks much for the relevant excerpts from Haag's City of Memory and his 2008 letter to TLS.  I add this passage from City of Memory:

"[I]nside Durrell's mind the models for the Hosnanis were not Copts:  they were the brilliant flowering of cosmopolitan Alexandria; they were Jewish and their name was Menasce" (p. 149).

The context for this quotation is after Durrell meets Claude Vincendon-Forde.  So, it's all an accident of composition ? the Coptic Hosnanis get inadvertently co-opted to act out a plot of Egyptian Jews to aid Palestine?  Namely, after nearly finishing Justine, Durrell meets Claude, a Jewish Alexandrine, who then provides him with enough material, conspiratorial and otherwise, to write the Quartet?  And "screens" have nothing to do with this process?  That is a neat solution, perhaps too much so.  But I wonder ? and this is just speculation ? why are the Hosnanis Copts?  Why aren't they aristocratic Jews and members of Alexandria's elite, like the many great Jewish families:  the Menasces, the Cattaouis, the Ambrons, the Lorias?  Durrell's experiences in Alexandria, which Haag brilliantly describes in the text of City of Memory and enhances in the photographs of Vintage Alexandria, seem dominated by high Jewish culture.  On top of all that, there's Eve Cohen, to whom Durrell dedicates "these memorials of her native city."  This is just a hunch, but I would argue that Haag's statement quoted above applies from the very beginning of the Quartet:  "[I]nside Durrell's mind the models for the Hosnanis . . . were [always] Jewish."


Bruce



On Jul 27, 2010, at 10:58 AM, Charles Sligh wrote:

> Thanks to Richard and Bruce for what they share.
> 
> Bruce mentions Michael Haag's work on the Coptic "plot" in the 
> /Quartet/. Here follow two important moments from MH's writings:
> 
>>        [Durrell] had not thought beyond Justine, and it was this one
>>        volume alone that he described, even as he was writing it in
>>        Cyprus, as ?4-dimensional?. The woman who changed everything
>>        was Claude Vincendon, of the Jewish Alexandrian banking family
>>        Menasce (not Menasche). But it was not because she imposed
>>        order on his notes; Justine was all but complete when she and
>>        Durrell met in Cyprus in 1955, but she provided the
>>        information and inspiration to turn a single volume into a
>>        quartet.
>> 
>>        Durrell and Claude had not previously met in Alexandria, but
>>        he had known members of her family there during the war, and
>>        when she walked into his life in Nicosia she revealed to him
>>        that they had been secretly pursuing Zionist activities in
>>        Egypt, which included financing immigration and arms to
>>        Palestine under the noses of the British. Durrell, who had
>>        been working at the British Information Office in Alexandria
>>        in the rue Toussoun (not rue Ch?rif Pasha) and who was close
>>        to people in British intelligence, might have been expected to
>>        know about this Palestine plot, but he did not, and the
>>        revelation overturned his impressions of Alexandrian reality
>>        (just as Darley?s sense of reality alters through the volumes
>>        that succeed Justine) and led Durrell to conceive the notion
>>        of using Claude?s uncle George de Menasce and other Zionist
>>        members of her family as models for the fictional Nessim
>>        Hosnani and his family, whom Durrell implausibly portrays as
>>        pro-Zionist Copts in the Quartet.
>>        http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/the_tls/article4665956.ece
> 
>        ******
>        ******
> 
>        /Alexandria: city of memory/
>        By Michael Haag
> 
>>        But the Copts have always been resolutely Egyptian and
>>        anti-Zionist, and would never have lent themselves to any such
>>        conspiracy (277+).
>>        http://books.google.com/books?id=3OhK6S_qIZoC&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=haag+zionist+durrell+copts&source=bl&ots=aGG0iBXKto&sig=gTDi81hVAnElrZ0p0tHvjYL_jfo&hl=en&ei=VflOTP2yG8P-8Aar973sDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
> 
> -- 
> ********************************************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> charles-sligh at utc.edu

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From rpinecorfu at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 28 01:43:39 2010
From: rpinecorfu at yahoo.com (Richard Pine)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 01:43:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ilds] Copts in Egypt
In-Reply-To: <A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I don't have the references to hand, but I think there has been at least one 
suggestion that Nessim was partly modelled on a member of the Boutros Galli 
family, maybe the Boutros Boutros Galli who became Sec-Gen of the UN. That 
family (Coptic) was certainly influential within Egyptian politics and society.
RP




________________________________
From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
Sent: Tue, July 27, 2010 7:59:06 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] Copts in Egypt

Richard, 

Thanks for the comment and citations. ?I'll check them out. ?Any thoughts on why 
the Hosnanis in the Quartet are Copts and not Jews? ?I do not think Durrell made 
that move simply because he wanted to avoid any entanglements or "hot issues."

I'll add this personal anecdote. ?When I was in Egypt in 2007, we visited the 
Coptic monastery at Wadi Natrun, at the edge of the western desert, about two 
hours from Alexandria. ?Crowds of Copts were visiting the monastery, and I was 
most impressed by their devotion:? men chanting in Arabic before an icon of the 
Virgin and reading an inscription along the margins of the painting, women 
touching and kissing the relics, and visitors approaching the monks, kissing 
their hands, and getting blessed.??The Copts are very religious and the true 
descendants of the Ancient Egyptians. ?They speak Arabic, but Coptic is 
preserved in the liturgy of their religious service, and it is a direct 
descendant of Ancient Egyptian.


Bruce




On Jul 27, 2010, at 8:43 AM, Richard Pine wrote:

Thanks very much for that article.
>It is worth considering:
>1) (and I know Michael Haag disagrees with the interpretations in this volume) 
>Michael Diboll,?Lawrence Durrell's?Alexandria Quartet?in its Egyptian 
>Contexts?(Mellen Press 2004) and
>2) B.L. Carter,?The Copts in Egyptian Politics?(Croom Helm, 1986).
>Athens News?(2005) carried a 3-part series on Cairo's cultures, the first part 
>of which (4 March 2005) by Alex Penmann, concentrated on the 'Coptic Christians 
>of Cairo'.
>
>RP
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From:?Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>To:?Durrell list <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Cc:?Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Sent:?Tue, July 27, 2010 6:14:26 PM
>Subject:?[ilds] Copts in Egypt
>
>Attached is an informative and well-written article by Tarek Heggy, an Egyptian 
>writer and intellectual, who discusses the plight of the Copts in Egypt today: 
>?"The Tragedy of Egypt's Copts" (forthcoming, ?2010). ?The Copts comprise about 
>20% of the Egyptian population, and many, as Heggy notes, play an important role 
>in the country's financial institutions. ?Lawrence Durrell's portrait of Coptic 
>concerns and interests in the?Quartet,?if not the Hosnani solution, was largely 
>accurate and prescient. ?I believe, however, that Michael Haag takes Durrell's 
>depiction of the Copts as a screen for the Jewish situation in Egypt during the 
>1930s and 1940s. ?He can correct me, if I'm wrong. ?Screen,?in the psychological 
>sense, is a kind of subterfuge, a way to avoid confronting something directly. 
>?Assuming the Coptic theme in the?Quartet?is a screen, why would Durrell use 
>that device? 
>
>
>
>
>
>BR
>
>



      
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 28 09:34:21 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 09:34:21 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Copts in Egypt
In-Reply-To: <51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>

Thanks, Richard.

Charles, what do Durrell's notebooks for Justine, or other writings, have to say about the genesis of the Hosnanis?  Any suggestions about why he decided to make the family Coptic instead of Jewish?


Bruce




On Jul 28, 2010, at 1:43 AM, Richard Pine wrote:

> I don't have the references to hand, but I think there has been at least one suggestion that Nessim was partly modelled on a member of the Boutros Galli family, maybe the Boutros Boutros Galli who became Sec-Gen of the UN. That family (Coptic) was certainly influential within Egyptian politics and society.
> RP
> 
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Sent: Tue, July 27, 2010 7:59:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Copts in Egypt
> 
> Richard,
> 
> Thanks for the comment and citations.  I'll check them out.  Any thoughts on why the Hosnanis in the Quartet are Copts and not Jews?  I do not think Durrell made that move simply because he wanted to avoid any entanglements or "hot issues."
> 
> I'll add this personal anecdote.  When I was in Egypt in 2007, we visited the Coptic monastery at Wadi Natrun, at the edge of the western desert, about two hours from Alexandria.  Crowds of Copts were visiting the monastery, and I was most impressed by their devotion:  men chanting in Arabic before an icon of the Virgin and reading an inscription along the margins of the painting, women touching and kissing the relics, and visitors approaching the monks, kissing their hands, and getting blessed.  The Copts are very religious and the true descendants of the Ancient Egyptians.  They speak Arabic, but Coptic is preserved in the liturgy of their religious service, and it is a direct descendant of Ancient Egyptian.
> 
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 27, 2010, at 8:43 AM, Richard Pine wrote:
> 
>> Thanks very much for that article.
>> It is worth considering:
>> 1) (and I know Michael Haag disagrees with the interpretations in this volume) Michael Diboll, Lawrence Durrell's Alexandria Quartet in its Egyptian Contexts (Mellen Press 2004) and
>> 2) B.L. Carter, The Copts in Egyptian Politics (Croom Helm, 1986).
>> Athens News (2005) carried a 3-part series on Cairo's cultures, the first part of which (4 March 2005) by Alex Penmann, concentrated on the 'Coptic Christians of Cairo'.
>>  
>> RP
>> 
>> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>> To: Durrell list <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>> Sent: Tue, July 27, 2010 6:14:26 PM
>> Subject: [ilds] Copts in Egypt
>> 
>> Attached is an informative and well-written article by Tarek Heggy, an Egyptian writer and intellectual, who discusses the plight of the Copts in Egypt today:  "The Tragedy of Egypt's Copts" (forthcoming, ?2010).  The Copts comprise about 20% of the Egyptian population, and many, as Heggy notes, play an important role in the country's financial institutions.  Lawrence Durrell's portrait of Coptic concerns and interests in the Quartet, if not the Hosnani solution, was largely accurate and prescient.  I believe, however, that Michael Haag takes Durrell's depiction of the Copts as a screen for the Jewish situation in Egypt during the 1930s and 1940s.  He can correct me, if I'm wrong.  Screen, in the psychological sense, is a kind of subterfuge, a way to avoid confronting something directly.  Assuming the Coptic theme in the Quartet is a screen, why would Durrell use that device?
>> 
>> 
>> BR
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 09:59:04 2010
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 09:59:04 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Copts in Egypt
In-Reply-To: <51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=_c1LRy-TXZyHtBTK462aM268SO8Zu52XTM-ye@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 July 2010 01:43, Richard Pine <rpinecorfu at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I don't have the references to hand, but I think there has been at least one
> suggestion that Nessim was partly modelled on a member of the Boutros Galli
> family, maybe the Boutros Boutros Galli who became Sec-Gen of the UN. That
> family (Coptic) was certainly influential within Egyptian politics and
> society.
> RP

--->

Peirce, Carol. "Some Worthwhile Work to Be Done: Is Nessim the Leader
of the World Today?" /Deus Loci: The Lawrence Durrell Journal/ NS 2
(1993: 164-166.

Nonetheless, Stanley Meisler rebuts this in /United Nations: The First
Fifty Years/. New York: Atlantic Monthly, 1995. (p. 281).

When asked by /The Middle East Quarterly/, Boutros-Ghali was quite clear:

MEQ: Is it true that you are at least in part the model for Nissim
Hosnani, a leading character in Lawrence Durrell's renowned 1961
novel, The Alexandria Quartet?12

Boutros-Ghali: It is not true, but the folklore is there.

MEQ: Did you know Durrell?

Boutros-Ghali: No.
(/Middle East Quarterly/ September 1997, pp. 59-66)

-- 
---------------------------------------
James Gifford, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of English and University Core Director
School of English, Philosophy and Humanities
University College: Arts, Sciences, Professional Studies
Fairleigh Dickinson University, Vancouver Campus
Voice: 604-648-4476
Fax: 604-648-4489
E-mail: gifford at fdu.edu
http://alpha.fdu.edu/~jgifford

842 Cambie Street
Vancouver, BC
V6B 2P6 Canada

From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 10:15:11 2010
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 10:15:11 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Copts in Egypt
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=_c1LRy-TXZyHtBTK462aM268SO8Zu52XTM-ye@mail.gmail.com>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTi=_c1LRy-TXZyHtBTK462aM268SO8Zu52XTM-ye@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimzPShU_qREafRZBpzE-XX41B1c09s1L-stDmAy@mail.gmail.com>

I should have added, Peirce also discusses it in:

Peirce, Carol. "East and West: Current Critical Responses to /The
Alexandria Quartet/." /Lawrence Durrell: Actes du Colloque pour
l'inauguration de la Bibliotheque Lawrence Durrell/. Nanterre: P U
Paris Ouest, 1998: 125-141.

It pops up in several other articles, but only as a reference back to Peirce.

-J

On 28 July 2010 09:59, James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 July 2010 01:43, Richard Pine <rpinecorfu at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I don't have the references to hand, but I think there has been at least one
>> suggestion that Nessim was partly modelled on a member of the Boutros Galli
>> family, maybe the Boutros Boutros Galli who became Sec-Gen of the UN. That
>> family (Coptic) was certainly influential within Egyptian politics and
>> society.
>> RP
>
> --->
>
> Peirce, Carol. "Some Worthwhile Work to Be Done: Is Nessim the Leader
> of the World Today?" /Deus Loci: The Lawrence Durrell Journal/ NS 2
> (1993: 164-166.
>
> Nonetheless, Stanley Meisler rebuts this in /United Nations: The First
> Fifty Years/. New York: Atlantic Monthly, 1995. (p. 281).
>
> When asked by /The Middle East Quarterly/, Boutros-Ghali was quite clear:
>
> MEQ: Is it true that you are at least in part the model for Nissim
> Hosnani, a leading character in Lawrence Durrell's renowned 1961
> novel, The Alexandria Quartet?12
>
> Boutros-Ghali: It is not true, but the folklore is there.
>
> MEQ: Did you know Durrell?
>
> Boutros-Ghali: No.
> (/Middle East Quarterly/ September 1997, pp. 59-66)
>
> --
> ---------------------------------------
> James Gifford, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor of English and University Core Director
> School of English, Philosophy and Humanities
> University College: Arts, Sciences, Professional Studies
> Fairleigh Dickinson University, Vancouver Campus
> Voice: 604-648-4476
> Fax: 604-648-4489
> E-mail: gifford at fdu.edu
> http://alpha.fdu.edu/~jgifford
>
> 842 Cambie Street
> Vancouver, BC
> V6B 2P6 Canada
>



-- 
---------------------------------------
James Gifford, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of English and University Core Director
School of English, Philosophy and Humanities
University College: Arts, Sciences, Professional Studies
Fairleigh Dickinson University, Vancouver Campus
Voice: 604-648-4476
Fax: 604-648-4489
E-mail: gifford at fdu.edu
http://alpha.fdu.edu/~jgifford

842 Cambie Street
Vancouver, BC
V6B 2P6 Canada

From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu  Wed Jul 28 10:49:56 2010
From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:49:56 -0400
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
In-Reply-To: <533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>

Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
> Charles, what do Durrell's notebooks for /Justine,/ or other writings, 
> have to say about the genesis of the Hosnanis? Any suggestions about 
> why he decided to make the family Coptic instead of Jewish?
>
>
Thanks for asking, Bruce.

I will set to one side the "Why did Durrell do x or y?" question. I 
simply do not know.

However, for the more factual questions--"What did Durrell do?" and 
"Where did Durrell do it?" and "When did Durrell do it?"--I will observe 
that, yes, Durrell did in fact draft several characters who were Jews in 
"The Book of the Dead/Notes for Alex" notebook.

Once upon a time, Durrell sketched Melissa as a "black-eyed slave girl" 
with a Jewish father from Odessa. At some point in the drafting, 
Melissa's parentage, physical traits, and memories of childhood became 
those we now recognize as belonging to the character Justine.

Durrell the Demiurge was kneading his clay a good deal, so to speak, and 
in the earliest drafts he unmade far more characters than he brought to 
term. As indicated by his working notes on a verso page of the same 
notebooks--"Cohen + Teresa Epstein = Melissa," the Melissa character 
seems to be fashioned from ribs taken from Yvette Cohen and Teresa Epstein.

All of this business of "screens" and elusive race makes /poetic/ sense 
within the terms of the /Quartet/. Justine]Claudia apparently pretends 
to be a Greek:

>         "I have been thinking about the girl I met last night in the
>         mirror: dark on marble-ivory white: glossy black hair: deep
>         suspiring eyes in which one's glances sink because they are
>         nervous, curious, turned to sexual curiosity. She pretends to
>         be a Greek, but she must be Jewish."

In an interesting process of correspondence, Justine's original, 
Melissa, comes through the drafting process being distinguished as 
'authentically' Greek. In the drafts, Melissa makes her debut in the 
same mirror, where she is described in terms that recall the finished 
character, Justine.

Justine's father also seems to partake of subterfuge, making the 
following clarification necessary:

>         'Walking through the Egyptian quarter the smell of flesh
>         changes - ammoniac, sandalwood, saltpetre, spice, fish. She
>         would not let me take her home - no doubt because she was
>         ashamed of her house in these slums. Nevertheless she spoke
>         wonderfully about her childhood. I have taken a few notes:
>         returning home to find her father breaking walnuts with a
>         little hammer on the table by the light of an oil-lamp. I can
>         see him. He is no Greek but a Jew from Odessa in fur cap with
>         greasy ringlets.'

The genesis of that passage from /Justine/ appears early on in the 
"Notes for Alex," where Melissa's father is described:

>         Melissa?s memories, the pound of walnuts her father broke
>         with a little hammer on the table--fur cap--Jew from
>         Odessa--in furs

We can see here that Durrell added the Greek]Jew screen later. What is 
the connection? I can't say.

Likewise, Arnauti pretends to be French, but like Claudia]Justine he is 
'secretly' a Jew: "It takes a Jew to smell out a Jew; and neither of us 
has the courage to confess our true race. I have told her I am French. 
Sooner or later we shall find one another out."

Among the various Jewish characters introduced early in /Justine/, old 
Cohen has always attracted me.

>         For weeks her lover, the old furrier, followed me about the
>         streets with a pistol sagging in the pocket of his overcoat.
>         It was consoling to learn from one of Melissa's friends that
>         it was unloaded, but it was nevertheless alarming to be
>         haunted by this old man. Mentally we must have shot each other
>         down at every street corner of the city. I for my part could
>         not bear to look at that heavy pock-marked face with its
>         bestial saturnine cluster of tormented features smeared on it
>         - could not bear to think of his gross intimacies with her:
>         those sweaty little hands covered as thickly as a porcupine
>         with black hair. For a long time this went on and then after
>         some months an extraordinary feeling of intimacy seemed to
>         grow up between us. We nodded and smiled at each other when we
>         met. Once, encountering him at a bar, I stood for nearly an
>         hour beside him; we were on the point of talking to each
>         other, yet somehow neither of us had the courage to begin it.
>         There was no common subject of conversation save Melissa. As I
>         was leaving I caught a glimpse of him in one of the long
>         mirrors, his head bowed as he stared into the wineglass.
>         Something about his attitude - the clumsy air of a trained
>         seal grappling with human emotions - struck me, and I realized
>         for the first time that he probably loved Melissa as much as I
>         did. I pitied his ugliness, and the blank pained
>         incomprehension with which he faced emotions so new to him as
>         jealousy, the deprivation of a cherished mistress.
>
>         Afterwards, when they were turning out his pockets, I saw
>         among the litter of odds and ends a small empty scent-bottle
>         of the cheap kind that Melissa used; and I took it back to the
>         flat, where it stayed on the mantelpiece for some months
>         before it was thrown away by Hamid in the course of a
>         spring-clean. I never told Melissa of this; but often when I
>         was alone at night while she was dancing, perhaps of necessity
>         sleeping with her admirers, I studied this small bottle, sadly
>         and passionately reflecting on the horrible old man's love and
>         measuring it against my own; and tasting too, vicariously, the
>         desperation which makes one clutch at some small discarded
>         object which is still impregnated with the betrayer's memory.

Again, I can't answer the question "Why did Durrell not make the Hosnani 
clan Jewish?"

I can ask:

    * What does the reader make of the apparent sympathy between broken
      or lost timepieces with Jewry?
    * What particular qualities distinguish Cohen's Jewishness from the
      Jewishness of Justine or Balthazar?
    * How do "Syrian" and "Copt" and "Greek" seem different from "Jew"
      within the imaginative terms of /Justine/?

Charles

-- 
********************************************
Charles L. Sligh
Assistant Professor
Department of English
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
charles-sligh at utc.edu
********************************************


From dkaczv at latech.edu  Wed Jul 28 13:26:34 2010
From: dkaczv at latech.edu (Don Kaczvinsky)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:26:34 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Hosnanis
Message-ID: <4C50927A.4000409@latech.edu>

Let me venture a guess on why Durrell might make the Hosnanis, Copts and 
not Jews.  A family of Jews running guns to Palestine would not be a 
surprise and feeds in to the stereotype.  Pursewarden and Mountolive 
would have been dolts not to be suspicious and Nessim would hardly have 
to marry Justine to bring the plot off. However, the Copts helping Jews 
by sending guns would not only have been unexpected for the audience and 
everyone involved, but  give  Durrell the ability to use a  little known 
minority culture (that was romanticized and yet historically true to the 
region) for his political plot, without implicating a European 
community. The Copts were part of  the upper middle class professionals, 
like bankers, and yet had an uncertain position in the Egyptian society. 
(They were not allowed in the army for instance). Durrell's concern was 
for the plot, not political (or personal) accuracy.

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 28 14:12:11 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 14:12:11 -0700
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
In-Reply-To: <4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
Message-ID: <52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>

Charles,

Thanks for the detailed exposition re Durrell's use of "screens" in the Quartet.  As you know, I'm interested in Durrell's psychology and am quite willing to push literary analysis further than many think permissible.  Durrell's preoccupation with Jewishness, especially in the Quartet, seems plainly evident.  Whether or not the Hosnanis, like Melissa, have a Jewish origin is, of course, open to debate.  That they end up being secret Jews, in Durrell's mind at least, has already been shown by Michael Haag.  I'll note that two of Durrell's four wives were Jews and that he proposed to Diana Gould, a Jew, later the wife of the great violinist, Yehudi Menuhin.  She turned him down but became his lifelong friend.  Moreover, Arnauti's remark, which you quote below, "It takes a Jew to smell out a Jew," is not simply an example of literary license, the use of another persona unrelated to the author.  Durrell himself makes similar comments on the back cover of a recording of his poems:  "I've just finished reading The Merchant and I can't help but believe that anyone but a man with Jewish blood in his veins could write with that kind of understanding.  Only a Jew can have that kind of anti-Semitism . . . And compare the features of Montaigne and Proust, who were half-Jews, with Shakespeare and note the similar frame of face that is so unEnglish!  I'll wager there was a Jewish grandmother somewhere no one has yet discovered!" (The Love Poems of Lawrence Durrell, Read by the Poet [Spoken Arts, 1961?].  So, if we believe him, Durrell has Shakespeare to be part Jewish.  And what did Durrell himself see in the mirror every morning when he shaved?  I wonder if he believed himself to have a "Jewish grandmother."


Bruce




On Jul 28, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Charles Sligh wrote:

> Bruce Redwine wrote:
>> 
>> Charles, what do Durrell's notebooks for /Justine,/ or other writings, 
>> have to say about the genesis of the Hosnanis? Any suggestions about 
>> why he decided to make the family Coptic instead of Jewish?
>> 
>> 
> Thanks for asking, Bruce.
> 
> I will set to one side the "Why did Durrell do x or y?" question. I 
> simply do not know.
> 
> However, for the more factual questions--"What did Durrell do?" and 
> "Where did Durrell do it?" and "When did Durrell do it?"--I will observe 
> that, yes, Durrell did in fact draft several characters who were Jews in 
> "The Book of the Dead/Notes for Alex" notebook.
> 
> Once upon a time, Durrell sketched Melissa as a "black-eyed slave girl" 
> with a Jewish father from Odessa. At some point in the drafting, 
> Melissa's parentage, physical traits, and memories of childhood became 
> those we now recognize as belonging to the character Justine.
> 
> Durrell the Demiurge was kneading his clay a good deal, so to speak, and 
> in the earliest drafts he unmade far more characters than he brought to 
> term. As indicated by his working notes on a verso page of the same 
> notebooks--"Cohen + Teresa Epstein = Melissa," the Melissa character 
> seems to be fashioned from ribs taken from Yvette Cohen and Teresa Epstein.
> 
> All of this business of "screens" and elusive race makes /poetic/ sense 
> within the terms of the /Quartet/. Justine]Claudia apparently pretends 
> to be a Greek:
> 
>>        "I have been thinking about the girl I met last night in the
>>        mirror: dark on marble-ivory white: glossy black hair: deep
>>        suspiring eyes in which one's glances sink because they are
>>        nervous, curious, turned to sexual curiosity. She pretends to
>>        be a Greek, but she must be Jewish."
> 
> In an interesting process of correspondence, Justine's original, 
> Melissa, comes through the drafting process being distinguished as 
> 'authentically' Greek. In the drafts, Melissa makes her debut in the 
> same mirror, where she is described in terms that recall the finished 
> character, Justine.
> 
> Justine's father also seems to partake of subterfuge, making the 
> following clarification necessary:
> 
>>        'Walking through the Egyptian quarter the smell of flesh
>>        changes - ammoniac, sandalwood, saltpetre, spice, fish. She
>>        would not let me take her home - no doubt because she was
>>        ashamed of her house in these slums. Nevertheless she spoke
>>        wonderfully about her childhood. I have taken a few notes:
>>        returning home to find her father breaking walnuts with a
>>        little hammer on the table by the light of an oil-lamp. I can
>>        see him. He is no Greek but a Jew from Odessa in fur cap with
>>        greasy ringlets.'
> 
> The genesis of that passage from /Justine/ appears early on in the 
> "Notes for Alex," where Melissa's father is described:
> 
>>        Melissa?s memories, the pound of walnuts her father broke
>>        with a little hammer on the table--fur cap--Jew from
>>        Odessa--in furs
> 
> We can see here that Durrell added the Greek]Jew screen later. What is 
> the connection? I can't say.
> 
> Likewise, Arnauti pretends to be French, but like Claudia]Justine he is 
> 'secretly' a Jew: "It takes a Jew to smell out a Jew; and neither of us 
> has the courage to confess our true race. I have told her I am French. 
> Sooner or later we shall find one another out."
> 
> Among the various Jewish characters introduced early in /Justine/, old 
> Cohen has always attracted me.
> 
>>        For weeks her lover, the old furrier, followed me about the
>>        streets with a pistol sagging in the pocket of his overcoat.
>>        It was consoling to learn from one of Melissa's friends that
>>        it was unloaded, but it was nevertheless alarming to be
>>        haunted by this old man. Mentally we must have shot each other
>>        down at every street corner of the city. I for my part could
>>        not bear to look at that heavy pock-marked face with its
>>        bestial saturnine cluster of tormented features smeared on it
>>        - could not bear to think of his gross intimacies with her:
>>        those sweaty little hands covered as thickly as a porcupine
>>        with black hair. For a long time this went on and then after
>>        some months an extraordinary feeling of intimacy seemed to
>>        grow up between us. We nodded and smiled at each other when we
>>        met. Once, encountering him at a bar, I stood for nearly an
>>        hour beside him; we were on the point of talking to each
>>        other, yet somehow neither of us had the courage to begin it.
>>        There was no common subject of conversation save Melissa. As I
>>        was leaving I caught a glimpse of him in one of the long
>>        mirrors, his head bowed as he stared into the wineglass.
>>        Something about his attitude - the clumsy air of a trained
>>        seal grappling with human emotions - struck me, and I realized
>>        for the first time that he probably loved Melissa as much as I
>>        did. I pitied his ugliness, and the blank pained
>>        incomprehension with which he faced emotions so new to him as
>>        jealousy, the deprivation of a cherished mistress.
>> 
>>        Afterwards, when they were turning out his pockets, I saw
>>        among the litter of odds and ends a small empty scent-bottle
>>        of the cheap kind that Melissa used; and I took it back to the
>>        flat, where it stayed on the mantelpiece for some months
>>        before it was thrown away by Hamid in the course of a
>>        spring-clean. I never told Melissa of this; but often when I
>>        was alone at night while she was dancing, perhaps of necessity
>>        sleeping with her admirers, I studied this small bottle, sadly
>>        and passionately reflecting on the horrible old man's love and
>>        measuring it against my own; and tasting too, vicariously, the
>>        desperation which makes one clutch at some small discarded
>>        object which is still impregnated with the betrayer's memory.
> 
> Again, I can't answer the question "Why did Durrell not make the Hosnani 
> clan Jewish?"
> 
> I can ask:
> 
>    * What does the reader make of the apparent sympathy between broken
>      or lost timepieces with Jewry?
>    * What particular qualities distinguish Cohen's Jewishness from the
>      Jewishness of Justine or Balthazar?
>    * How do "Syrian" and "Copt" and "Greek" seem different from "Jew"
>      within the imaginative terms of /Justine/?
> 
> Charles
> 
> -- 
> ********************************************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> charles-sligh at utc.edu
> ********************************************

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From james.d.gifford at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 14:19:43 2010
From: james.d.gifford at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 14:19:43 -0700
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
In-Reply-To: <52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
	<52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>

> So, if we believe him, Durrell has Shakespeare
> to be part Jewish. And what did Durrell himself
> see in the mirror every morning when he shaved?
> I wonder if he believed himself to have a
> "Jewish grandmother."

I'll bite...  I'm guessing he saw every kind of grandmother, except English.

Corinne Alexandre-Garner has written on Durrell's anti-semitism, but I 
must admit I find it a complicated topic, both biographically and 
textually, and sorting out the ironies, biases, and character 
perspectives doesn't strike me as an easy task.

-James

From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Wed Jul 28 14:29:09 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 17:29:09 -0400
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
In-Reply-To: <4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
	<52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>,
	<4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

Well, if Durrell was antisemitic he probably didn't know it consciously. And, unconsciously? Who can tell?

Bill



W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of James Gifford [james.d.gifford at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 5:19 PM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Subject: Re: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"

> So, if we believe him, Durrell has Shakespeare
> to be part Jewish. And what did Durrell himself
> see in the mirror every morning when he shaved?
> I wonder if he believed himself to have a
> "Jewish grandmother."

I'll bite...  I'm guessing he saw every kind of grandmother, except English.

Corinne Alexandre-Garner has written on Durrell's anti-semitism, but I
must admit I find it a complicated topic, both biographically and
textually, and sorting out the ironies, biases, and character
perspectives doesn't strike me as an easy task.

-James
_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From james.d.gifford at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 14:39:27 2010
From: james.d.gifford at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 14:39:27 -0700
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>	<52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>,
	<4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <4C50A38F.9030908@gmail.com>

Antisemitic yet pro-Israel, at least for a time!  And repeatedly in love 
with Jews...  Durrell does present some problems to us, and I'm also 
never fully sure when the author is revealing himself or when he's 
revealing a symptom of his characters (I'd say Durrell has to be one of 
the most conscious authors of his period in this regard, though 
strangely symptomatic himself, unless it was deliberate).

I'd say a component of the antisemitism of the day crept into his works, 
such as in /Pied Piper of Lovers/, but that beyond the later 1930s, it's 
something he'd be fairly conscious of including, especially since 
Claude's Zionist novel /A Chair for the Prophet/ is so much like the 
prose in /Balthazar/ (or is it the other way 'round?).  Whether it 
coincided with Claude's death or Israel's new borders, Durrell dropped 
his pro-Zionist literary projects around 1968, at least so far as I can 
see.  What happened in the Quintet I don't think I can say without too 
much guesswork.

-J

On 28/07/10 2:29 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:
> Well, if Durrell was antisemitic he probably didn't know it consciously. And, unconsciously? Who can tell?
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English    *           *
> University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
> OH 45221-0069 *  *
> ________________________________________
> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of James Gifford [james.d.gifford at gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 5:19 PM
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Subject: Re: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
>
>> So, if we believe him, Durrell has Shakespeare
>> to be part Jewish. And what did Durrell himself
>> see in the mirror every morning when he shaved?
>> I wonder if he believed himself to have a
>> "Jewish grandmother."
>
> I'll bite...  I'm guessing he saw every kind of grandmother, except English.
>
> Corinne Alexandre-Garner has written on Durrell's anti-semitism, but I
> must admit I find it a complicated topic, both biographically and
> textually, and sorting out the ironies, biases, and character
> perspectives doesn't strike me as an easy task.
>
> -James
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 28 14:53:27 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 14:53:27 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Hosnanis
In-Reply-To: <4C50927A.4000409@latech.edu>
References: <4C50927A.4000409@latech.edu>
Message-ID: <AD501CE7-C048-44BA-9F28-4AF09ABD7CEF@earthlink.net>

Don,

Yes, excellent literary reasons not to make the Hosnanis a Jewish family, but, according to Haag, the Palestine plot didn't occur to Durrell until after meeting Claude Vincendon and having nearly completed Justine.  So, these reasons don't apply to the original conception of the Hosnanis as Copts (assuming LD didn't make revisions after meeting Claude).  Now, it's entirely possible the Hosnanis are Copts simply for matters related to Alexandrian culture, i.e., Durrell wanted a cosmopolitan ambiance, so he brings in a Coptic element, those "true Egyptians."  But my hunch is no.  Something else is at work.  I am not aware that Durrell had much contact with the Copts in Egypt ? not to the same extent he knew about Jewish culture.


Bruce



On Jul 28, 2010, at 1:26 PM, Don Kaczvinsky wrote:

> Let me venture a guess on why Durrell might make the Hosnanis, Copts and 
> not Jews.  A family of Jews running guns to Palestine would not be a 
> surprise and feeds in to the stereotype.  Pursewarden and Mountolive 
> would have been dolts not to be suspicious and Nessim would hardly have 
> to marry Justine to bring the plot off. However, the Copts helping Jews 
> by sending guns would not only have been unexpected for the audience and 
> everyone involved, but  give  Durrell the ability to use a  little known 
> minority culture (that was romanticized and yet historically true to the 
> region) for his political plot, without implicating a European 
> community. The Copts were part of  the upper middle class professionals, 
> like bankers, and yet had an uncertain position in the Egyptian society. 
> (They were not allowed in the army for instance). Durrell's concern was 
> for the plot, not political (or personal) accuracy.


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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 28 15:00:46 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:00:46 -0700
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
In-Reply-To: <4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
	<52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>
	<4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <68A14035-CE60-41D3-862D-4672A5CF18FC@earthlink.net>

I haven't read Alexandre-Garner's work.  Seems to me Bowker also mentions Durrell's anti-semiticism, but I didn't find it convincing, especially given his Jewish wives and loves.  Anti-Semiticism, however, was common at the time ? Pound and Eliot being the notorious examples. 


Bruce



On Jul 28, 2010, at 2:19 PM, James Gifford wrote:

>> So, if we believe him, Durrell has Shakespeare
>> to be part Jewish. And what did Durrell himself
>> see in the mirror every morning when he shaved?
>> I wonder if he believed himself to have a
>> "Jewish grandmother."
> 
> I'll bite...  I'm guessing he saw every kind of grandmother, except English.
> 
> Corinne Alexandre-Garner has written on Durrell's anti-semitism, but I 
> must admit I find it a complicated topic, both biographically and 
> textually, and sorting out the ironies, biases, and character 
> perspectives doesn't strike me as an easy task.
> 
> -James
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 28 15:10:40 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:10:40 -0700
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
	<52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>,
	<4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <5EC4A83D-1356-44F5-B589-673DD56D111F@earthlink.net>

I don't take Durrell's remarks as anti-Semitic.  Just the opposite.  I believe he greatly admired Jewish culture, especially its women.  It's probably more accurate to call him sexist.  His treatment of women bears that out.  Even that old sexist Henry Miller thought LD too hard on his women.  Read Bowker and Chamberlin.


Bruce



On Jul 28, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:

> Well, if Durrell was antisemitic he probably didn't know it consciously. And, unconsciously? Who can tell?
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English    *           *
> University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
> OH 45221-0069 *  *
> ________________________________________
> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of James Gifford [james.d.gifford at gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 5:19 PM
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Subject: Re: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
> 
>> So, if we believe him, Durrell has Shakespeare
>> to be part Jewish. And what did Durrell himself
>> see in the mirror every morning when he shaved?
>> I wonder if he believed himself to have a
>> "Jewish grandmother."
> 
> I'll bite...  I'm guessing he saw every kind of grandmother, except English.
> 
> Corinne Alexandre-Garner has written on Durrell's anti-semitism, but I
> must admit I find it a complicated topic, both biographically and
> textually, and sorting out the ironies, biases, and character
> perspectives doesn't strike me as an easy task.
> 
> -James
> _______________________________________________



From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Wed Jul 28 16:12:03 2010
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 09:12:03 +1000
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net><166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net><51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net><4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu><52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>,
	<4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com><94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<5EC4A83D-1356-44F5-B589-673DD56D111F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <D7F9AE5111104FEFBFFB94535CEBA7AA@MumandDad>

"It's probably more accurate to call him sexist.  His treatment of women 
bears that out.  Even that old sexist Henry Miller thought LD too hard on 
his women.  Read Bowker and Chamberlin"

Bruce, while Durrell's psychology and his treatment of women is indeed a 
subject in itself, worthy of further exploration, we should be mindful of 
the fact that he lived such of his life in pre feminist times and I would go 
so far as to say that Durrell's sexism and pugilistic tendencies towards his 
wives and lovers was  fairly common at the time. In my own country rape in 
marriage was not a crime until 1982 and as for the odd smack in the head, 
the law did not care too much about that either. This is not to excuse the 
man, but to see him in context as a more than just a novelist, poet artist 
and raconteur but as a whole man with flaws and strengths like most of us, 
some of which may have been enlarged by vieux marc.

David


16 William Street
Marrickville NSW  2204
+61 2 9564 6165
0412 707 625
dtart at bigpond.net.au



From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Wed Jul 28 15:34:04 2010
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 08:34:04 +1000
Subject: [ilds] Bomb Throwers
Message-ID: <CFADFEDF6EC44305B67DD8E813A77D7B@MumandDad>

"Durrell dropped his pro-Zionist literary projects around 1968, at least so far as I can 
see.  What happened in the Quintet I don't think I can say without too 
much guesswork."

I'd say Larry was very wise to drop his pro Zionist literary projects around 1968. This was just after the six day war and 4 years after the formation of the PLO. Having been a near victim of terrorism before, he probably did not wish to be a potential target again.


Bowker claims that Claude Forde (Jewish mother) may well have been the model for Clea (artist and lesbian) and that, as he wrote, clea certainly became more like Claude, but then Durrell was a great alchemist.

David


16 William Street
Marrickville NSW  2204
+61 2 9564 6165
0412 707 625
dtart at bigpond.net.au
www.denisetart.com.au
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From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Wed Jul 28 18:15:16 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 21:15:16 -0400
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
In-Reply-To: <4C50A38F.9030908@gmail.com>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
	<52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>,
	<4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>,
	<4C50A38F.9030908@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

James,

I'm just talking through my yamaka. 

I have not analyzed and thoughtfully considered Durrell's attitude toward all the Jews in the world. Hard to do.

At the present time we can find many American academics who consider themselves anti-Israel but not at all antisemitic.

Bill


W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of James Gifford [james.d.gifford at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 5:39 PM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Subject: Re: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"

Antisemitic yet pro-Israel, at least for a time!  And repeatedly in love
with Jews...  Durrell does present some problems to us, and I'm also
never fully sure when the author is revealing himself or when he's
revealing a symptom of his characters (I'd say Durrell has to be one of
the most conscious authors of his period in this regard, though
strangely symptomatic himself, unless it was deliberate).

I'd say a component of the antisemitism of the day crept into his works,
such as in /Pied Piper of Lovers/, but that beyond the later 1930s, it's
something he'd be fairly conscious of including, especially since
Claude's Zionist novel /A Chair for the Prophet/ is so much like the
prose in /Balthazar/ (or is it the other way 'round?).  Whether it
coincided with Claude's death or Israel's new borders, Durrell dropped
his pro-Zionist literary projects around 1968, at least so far as I can
see.  What happened in the Quintet I don't think I can say without too
much guesswork.

-J

On 28/07/10 2:29 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:
> Well, if Durrell was antisemitic he probably didn't know it consciously. And, unconsciously? Who can tell?
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English    *           *
> University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
> OH 45221-0069 *  *
> ________________________________________
> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of James Gifford [james.d.gifford at gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 5:19 PM
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Subject: Re: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
>
>> So, if we believe him, Durrell has Shakespeare
>> to be part Jewish. And what did Durrell himself
>> see in the mirror every morning when he shaved?
>> I wonder if he believed himself to have a
>> "Jewish grandmother."
>
> I'll bite...  I'm guessing he saw every kind of grandmother, except English.
>
> Corinne Alexandre-Garner has written on Durrell's anti-semitism, but I
> must admit I find it a complicated topic, both biographically and
> textually, and sorting out the ironies, biases, and character
> perspectives doesn't strike me as an easy task.
>
> -James
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 28 17:33:20 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 17:33:20 -0700
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
In-Reply-To: <D7F9AE5111104FEFBFFB94535CEBA7AA@MumandDad>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net><166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net><51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net><4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu><52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>,
	<4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com><94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<5EC4A83D-1356-44F5-B589-673DD56D111F@earthlink.net>
	<D7F9AE5111104FEFBFFB94535CEBA7AA@MumandDad>
Message-ID: <7E92B83F-75E8-475F-A7F2-B4E733856AFC@earthlink.net>

David,

A point well taken.  I have to say, however, that physical abuse of a woman is never excusable no matter what the mores of the times.  On this topic, I refuse to hold a relativist position.


Bruce



On Jul 28, 2010, at 4:12 PM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote:

> "It's probably more accurate to call him sexist.  His treatment of women 
> bears that out.  Even that old sexist Henry Miller thought LD too hard on 
> his women.  Read Bowker and Chamberlin"
> 
> Bruce, while Durrell's psychology and his treatment of women is indeed a 
> subject in itself, worthy of further exploration, we should be mindful of 
> the fact that he lived such of his life in pre feminist times and I would go 
> so far as to say that Durrell's sexism and pugilistic tendencies towards his 
> wives and lovers was  fairly common at the time. In my own country rape in 
> marriage was not a crime until 1982 and as for the odd smack in the head, 
> the law did not care too much about that either. This is not to excuse the 
> man, but to see him in context as a more than just a novelist, poet artist 
> and raconteur but as a whole man with flaws and strengths like most of us, 
> some of which may have been enlarged by vieux marc.
> 
> David
> 
> 
> 16 William Street
> Marrickville NSW  2204
> +61 2 9564 6165
> 0412 707 625
> dtart at bigpond.net.au
> 



From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 21:07:01 2010
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 21:07:01 -0700
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
	<52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>
	<4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<4C50A38F.9030908@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikWVZj0gQTa01gduLoOMDYhPKkb3di4Ks7yHAvp@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Bill,

Yeah, exactly.  I didn't mean Old D's attitudes to everyone he might
suspect of being Jewish (which seems to be everyone...) but rather his
generalized opinion, if there was a generalized opinion -- opposite
way 'round.  As for Israel, opposite way 'round as well.  It's too
easy to confuse the two, but in Durrell's case, it seems to be a
question of sorting out that distinction.  I'm genuine in wondering if
he stopped writing his Zionist novel and lost interest in what became
a terrible film with Sophia Loren because he lost interest in Israel
or because Claude was no longer there -- his attitudes in the Quintet
are what I think drew Corinne's attention (she brought it up a few
times at the New Orleans conference and perhaps we'll get a
translation or at least the text of her piece out), but in the Quintet
I'm really not sure where I'd draw the line between the novel's ethos
and its method of characterization, including the antisemitism of its
characters.

> At the present time we can find many American academics who consider themselves anti-Israel but not at all antisemitic.

I think that's true in many countries, and especially north of the
border here.  What I think is interesting in Durrell's case is his
fairly clear support of Israel and investment in pro-Israel projects
for his writing in tandem with what at least a few scholars have felt
are antisemitic sentiments in his novel.  Anne Zahlan has raised
questions about race in Durrell's novels as well, which I find equally
hard to sort out with confidence -- if it were cultural studies, I'd
look to see how it was being used instead...

> I'm just talking through my yamaka.

That's quite a trick...  Can we get a picture at the next conference?
I'll provide the necessary beers.

Cheers,
James

On 28 July 2010 18:15, Godshalk, William (godshawl)
<godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu> wrote:
> James,
>
> I'm just talking through my yamaka.
>
> I have not analyzed and thoughtfully considered Durrell's attitude toward all the Jews in the world. Hard to do.
>
> At the present time we can find many American academics who consider themselves anti-Israel but not at all antisemitic.
>
> Bill
>
>
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English ? ?* ? ? ? ? ? *
> University of Cincinnati* ? * Stellar Disorder ?*
> OH 45221-0069 * ?*
> ________________________________________
> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of James Gifford [james.d.gifford at gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 5:39 PM
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Subject: Re: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
>
> Antisemitic yet pro-Israel, at least for a time! ?And repeatedly in love
> with Jews... ?Durrell does present some problems to us, and I'm also
> never fully sure when the author is revealing himself or when he's
> revealing a symptom of his characters (I'd say Durrell has to be one of
> the most conscious authors of his period in this regard, though
> strangely symptomatic himself, unless it was deliberate).
>
> I'd say a component of the antisemitism of the day crept into his works,
> such as in /Pied Piper of Lovers/, but that beyond the later 1930s, it's
> something he'd be fairly conscious of including, especially since
> Claude's Zionist novel /A Chair for the Prophet/ is so much like the
> prose in /Balthazar/ (or is it the other way 'round?). ?Whether it
> coincided with Claude's death or Israel's new borders, Durrell dropped
> his pro-Zionist literary projects around 1968, at least so far as I can
> see. ?What happened in the Quintet I don't think I can say without too
> much guesswork.
>
> -J
>
> On 28/07/10 2:29 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:
>> Well, if Durrell was antisemitic he probably didn't know it consciously. And, unconsciously? Who can tell?
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>> W. L. Godshalk *
>> Department of English ? ?* ? ? ? ? ? *
>> University of Cincinnati* ? * Stellar Disorder ?*
>> OH 45221-0069 * ?*
>> ________________________________________
>> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of James Gifford [james.d.gifford at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 5:19 PM
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
>>
>>> So, if we believe him, Durrell has Shakespeare
>>> to be part Jewish. And what did Durrell himself
>>> see in the mirror every morning when he shaved?
>>> I wonder if he believed himself to have a
>>> "Jewish grandmother."
>>
>> I'll bite... ?I'm guessing he saw every kind of grandmother, except English.
>>
>> Corinne Alexandre-Garner has written on Durrell's anti-semitism, but I
>> must admit I find it a complicated topic, both biographically and
>> textually, and sorting out the ironies, biases, and character
>> perspectives doesn't strike me as an easy task.
>>
>> -James
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>



-- 
---------------------------------------
James Gifford, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of English and University Core Director
School of English, Philosophy and Humanities
University College: Arts, Sciences, Professional Studies
Fairleigh Dickinson University, Vancouver Campus
Voice: 604-648-4476
Fax: 604-648-4489
E-mail: gifford at fdu.edu
http://alpha.fdu.edu/~jgifford

842 Cambie Street
Vancouver, BC
V6B 2P6 Canada


From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Thu Jul 29 00:36:11 2010
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:36:11 +1000
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net><166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net><51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net><4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu><52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net><4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com><94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu><4C50A38F.9030908@gmail.com><94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<AANLkTikWVZj0gQTa01gduLoOMDYhPKkb3di4Ks7yHAvp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BFA23D6758F147E9B93A0E38A6A03387@MumandDad>

James wrote:

What I think is interesting in Durrell's case is his
fairly clear support of Israel and investment in pro-Israel projects
for his writing in tandem with what at least a few scholars have felt
are antisemitic sentiments in his novel.

David Green writes:

Durrell's pro Israeli stance is, to me, not hard to fathom. He detested 
islam and clearly thought Palestine better occupied by the more ancient 
mediterranean judaic faith - and at least two of his lovers in the '48 - '58 
period, as mentioned, were jewish or part Jewish.

Claude's death changed LD enormously but, as I have previously posted, a 
fear of terrorism may also have stopped the novel.

Aso supporting Israeli in it's early days was a kind of heroic cause, the 
underdog and all that. My reading say that he stayed on a kibbutz at one 
time.

Later,when the Israeli Right became big thugs, confident of victory, his 
support for zionist agenda became more qualified, if indeed it remained at 
all.

David Green

16 William Street
Marrickville NSW  2204
+61 2 9564 6165
0412 707 625
dtart at bigpond.net.au
www.denisetart.com.au



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 29 08:00:58 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 08:00:58 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism
In-Reply-To: <BFA23D6758F147E9B93A0E38A6A03387@MumandDad>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net><166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net><51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net><4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu><52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net><4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com><94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu><4C50A38F.9030908@gmail.com><94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<AANLkTikWVZj0gQTa01gduLoOMDYhPKkb3di4Ks7yHAvp@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFA23D6758F147E9B93A0E38A6A03387@MumandDad>
Message-ID: <00C0B12F-2F6D-46A3-893F-418F3BB02DC1@earthlink.net>

I haven't read the "anti-Semitic" parts of the Quintet nor those of the pre-Black Book works.  But it's hard for me to believe Durrell had such tendencies, given his wives, love interests, and early advocacy of Israel itself.  James's comments about literary depictions of Jews and the difficulty in knowing what that means re Durrell himself and his attitude ? all that seems very apt and relevant.  As far as the state of Israel goes, his disillusionment with the country, if such, after the 1967 War seems to me completely understandable.  I share that attitude, and I don't consider myself anti-Semitic.  The trend these days is to brand anyone an anti-Semite who disagrees with the government of Israel's policies.  If that's the case, then a whole lot of Israelis are themselves anti-Semitic.  Read the Israeli newspaper Haaretz and have this point confirmed.


Bruce



On Jul 29, 2010, at 12:36 AM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote:

> James wrote:
> 
> What I think is interesting in Durrell's case is his
> fairly clear support of Israel and investment in pro-Israel projects
> for his writing in tandem with what at least a few scholars have felt
> are antisemitic sentiments in his novel.
> 
> David Green writes:
> 
> Durrell's pro Israeli stance is, to me, not hard to fathom. He detested 
> islam and clearly thought Palestine better occupied by the more ancient 
> mediterranean judaic faith - and at least two of his lovers in the '48 - '58 
> period, as mentioned, were jewish or part Jewish.
> 
> Claude's death changed LD enormously but, as I have previously posted, a 
> fear of terrorism may also have stopped the novel.
> 
> Aso supporting Israeli in it's early days was a kind of heroic cause, the 
> underdog and all that. My reading say that he stayed on a kibbutz at one 
> time.
> 
> Later,when the Israeli Right became big thugs, confident of victory, his 
> support for zionist agenda became more qualified, if indeed it remained at 
> all.
> 
> David Green
> 
> 16 William Street
> Marrickville NSW  2204
> +61 2 9564 6165
> 0412 707 625
> dtart at bigpond.net.au
> www.denisetart.com.au
> 

-------------- next part --------------
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From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Thu Jul 29 08:58:55 2010
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:58:55 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism
In-Reply-To: <00C0B12F-2F6D-46A3-893F-418F3BB02DC1@earthlink.net>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net><166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net><51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net><4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu><52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net><4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com><94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu><4C50A38F.9030908@gmail.com><94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>	<AANLkTikWVZj0gQTa01gduLoOMDYhPKkb3di4Ks7yHAvp@mail.gmail.com>	<BFA23D6758F147E9B93A0E38A6A03387@MumandDad>
	<00C0B12F-2F6D-46A3-893F-418F3BB02DC1@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4C51A53F.4040504@interdesign.fr>

I entirely agree with you Bruce; not agreeing with 
Israeli politics does not make one Anti-Semitic. 
No more than not agreeing with any countries 
politics (or leaders) makes one anti that country!
Marc

Le 29/07/10 17:00, Bruce Redwine a ?crit :
> I haven't read the "anti-Semitic" parts of the /Quintet/ nor those of
> the pre-/Black Book/ works. But it's hard for me to believe Durrell had
> such tendencies, given his wives, love interests, and early advocacy of
> Israel itself. James's comments about literary depictions of Jews and
> the difficulty in knowing what that means re Durrell himself and his
> attitude ? all that seems very apt and relevant. As far as the state of
> Israel goes, his disillusionment with the country, if such, after the
> 1967 War seems to me completely understandable. I share that attitude,
> and I don't consider myself anti-Semitic. The trend these days is to
> brand anyone an anti-Semite who disagrees with the government of
> Israel's policies. If that's the case, then a whole lot of Israelis are
> themselves anti-Semitic. Read the Israeli newspaper /Haaretz/ and have
> this point confirmed.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> On Jul 29, 2010, at 12:36 AM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote:
>
>> James wrote:
>>
>> What I think is interesting in Durrell's case is his
>> fairly clear support of Israel and investment in pro-Israel projects
>> for his writing in tandem with what at least a few scholars have felt
>> are antisemitic sentiments in his novel.
>>
>> David Green writes:
>>
>> Durrell's pro Israeli stance is, to me, not hard to fathom. He detested
>> islam and clearly thought Palestine better occupied by the more ancient
>> mediterranean judaic faith - and at least two of his lovers in the '48
>> - '58
>> period, as mentioned, were jewish or part Jewish.
>>
>> Claude's death changed LD enormously but, as I have previously posted, a
>> fear of terrorism may also have stopped the novel.
>>
>> Aso supporting Israeli in it's early days was a kind of heroic cause, the
>> underdog and all that. My reading say that he stayed on a kibbutz at one
>> time.
>>
>> Later,when the Israeli Right became big thugs, confident of victory, his
>> support for zionist agenda became more qualified, if indeed it
>> remained at
>> all.
>>
>> David Green
>>
>> 16 William Street
>> Marrickville NSW 2204
>> +61 2 9564 6165
>> 0412 707 625
>> dtart at bigpond.net.au <mailto:dtart at bigpond.net.au>
>> www.denisetart.com.au
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu  Thu Jul 29 10:15:19 2010
From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl))
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 13:15:19 -0400
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
In-Reply-To: <4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>,
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444BD@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>

    * How do "Syrian" and "Copt" and "Greek" seem different from "Jew"
      within the imaginative terms of /Justine/?

If you are a Syrian or a Greek, you can become an Egyptian by moving there and becoming a citizen.

Copt seems to be a kind of Christian, and you could move to Cincinnati and still be a Copt.

Jew seems to be an ethnicity that you take with you when you move to Egypt -- or anywhere else. 

I wonder if Durrell would have made these distinctions. 

Certainly Durrell did change Justine into Melissa -- or so it seems -- early in the novel. 

Bill 


W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English    *           *
University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
OH 45221-0069 *  *
________________________________________
From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Charles Sligh [Charles-Sligh at utc.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:49 PM
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Cc: Bruce Redwine
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"

Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
> Charles, what do Durrell's notebooks for /Justine,/ or other writings,
> have to say about the genesis of the Hosnanis? Any suggestions about
> why he decided to make the family Coptic instead of Jewish?
>
>
Thanks for asking, Bruce.

I will set to one side the "Why did Durrell do x or y?" question. I
simply do not know.

However, for the more factual questions--"What did Durrell do?" and
"Where did Durrell do it?" and "When did Durrell do it?"--I will observe
that, yes, Durrell did in fact draft several characters who were Jews in
"The Book of the Dead/Notes for Alex" notebook.

Once upon a time, Durrell sketched Melissa as a "black-eyed slave girl"
with a Jewish father from Odessa. At some point in the drafting,
Melissa's parentage, physical traits, and memories of childhood became
those we now recognize as belonging to the character Justine.

Durrell the Demiurge was kneading his clay a good deal, so to speak, and
in the earliest drafts he unmade far more characters than he brought to
term. As indicated by his working notes on a verso page of the same
notebooks--"Cohen + Teresa Epstein = Melissa," the Melissa character
seems to be fashioned from ribs taken from Yvette Cohen and Teresa Epstein.

All of this business of "screens" and elusive race makes /poetic/ sense
within the terms of the /Quartet/. Justine]Claudia apparently pretends
to be a Greek:

>         "I have been thinking about the girl I met last night in the
>         mirror: dark on marble-ivory white: glossy black hair: deep
>         suspiring eyes in which one's glances sink because they are
>         nervous, curious, turned to sexual curiosity. She pretends to
>         be a Greek, but she must be Jewish."

In an interesting process of correspondence, Justine's original,
Melissa, comes through the drafting process being distinguished as
'authentically' Greek. In the drafts, Melissa makes her debut in the
same mirror, where she is described in terms that recall the finished
character, Justine.

Justine's father also seems to partake of subterfuge, making the
following clarification necessary:

>         'Walking through the Egyptian quarter the smell of flesh
>         changes - ammoniac, sandalwood, saltpetre, spice, fish. She
>         would not let me take her home - no doubt because she was
>         ashamed of her house in these slums. Nevertheless she spoke
>         wonderfully about her childhood. I have taken a few notes:
>         returning home to find her father breaking walnuts with a
>         little hammer on the table by the light of an oil-lamp. I can
>         see him. He is no Greek but a Jew from Odessa in fur cap with
>         greasy ringlets.'

The genesis of that passage from /Justine/ appears early on in the
"Notes for Alex," where Melissa's father is described:

>         Melissa?s memories, the pound of walnuts her father broke
>         with a little hammer on the table--fur cap--Jew from
>         Odessa--in furs

We can see here that Durrell added the Greek]Jew screen later. What is
the connection? I can't say.

Likewise, Arnauti pretends to be French, but like Claudia]Justine he is
'secretly' a Jew: "It takes a Jew to smell out a Jew; and neither of us
has the courage to confess our true race. I have told her I am French.
Sooner or later we shall find one another out."

Among the various Jewish characters introduced early in /Justine/, old
Cohen has always attracted me.

>         For weeks her lover, the old furrier, followed me about the
>         streets with a pistol sagging in the pocket of his overcoat.
>         It was consoling to learn from one of Melissa's friends that
>         it was unloaded, but it was nevertheless alarming to be
>         haunted by this old man. Mentally we must have shot each other
>         down at every street corner of the city. I for my part could
>         not bear to look at that heavy pock-marked face with its
>         bestial saturnine cluster of tormented features smeared on it
>         - could not bear to think of his gross intimacies with her:
>         those sweaty little hands covered as thickly as a porcupine
>         with black hair. For a long time this went on and then after
>         some months an extraordinary feeling of intimacy seemed to
>         grow up between us. We nodded and smiled at each other when we
>         met. Once, encountering him at a bar, I stood for nearly an
>         hour beside him; we were on the point of talking to each
>         other, yet somehow neither of us had the courage to begin it.
>         There was no common subject of conversation save Melissa. As I
>         was leaving I caught a glimpse of him in one of the long
>         mirrors, his head bowed as he stared into the wineglass.
>         Something about his attitude - the clumsy air of a trained
>         seal grappling with human emotions - struck me, and I realized
>         for the first time that he probably loved Melissa as much as I
>         did. I pitied his ugliness, and the blank pained
>         incomprehension with which he faced emotions so new to him as
>         jealousy, the deprivation of a cherished mistress.
>
>         Afterwards, when they were turning out his pockets, I saw
>         among the litter of odds and ends a small empty scent-bottle
>         of the cheap kind that Melissa used; and I took it back to the
>         flat, where it stayed on the mantelpiece for some months
>         before it was thrown away by Hamid in the course of a
>         spring-clean. I never told Melissa of this; but often when I
>         was alone at night while she was dancing, perhaps of necessity
>         sleeping with her admirers, I studied this small bottle, sadly
>         and passionately reflecting on the horrible old man's love and
>         measuring it against my own; and tasting too, vicariously, the
>         desperation which makes one clutch at some small discarded
>         object which is still impregnated with the betrayer's memory.

Again, I can't answer the question "Why did Durrell not make the Hosnani
clan Jewish?"

I can ask:

    * What does the reader make of the apparent sympathy between broken
      or lost timepieces with Jewry?
    * What particular qualities distinguish Cohen's Jewishness from the
      Jewishness of Justine or Balthazar?
    * How do "Syrian" and "Copt" and "Greek" seem different from "Jew"
      within the imaginative terms of /Justine/?

Charles

--
********************************************
Charles L. Sligh
Assistant Professor
Department of English
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
charles-sligh at utc.edu
********************************************

_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Thu Jul 29 10:26:47 2010
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:26:47 +0200
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444BD@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>,
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444BD@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <4C51B9D7.3060205@interdesign.fr>

Surely Jews are people, not merely a religious sect.
Like French, Poms, Yanks, etc...
Marc

Le 29/07/10 19:15, Godshalk, William (godshawl) a 
?crit :
>      * How do "Syrian" and "Copt" and "Greek" seem different from "Jew"
>        within the imaginative terms of /Justine/?
>
> If you are a Syrian or a Greek, you can become an Egyptian by moving there and becoming a citizen.
>
> Copt seems to be a kind of Christian, and you could move to Cincinnati and still be a Copt.
>
> Jew seems to be an ethnicity that you take with you when you move to Egypt -- or anywhere else.
>
> I wonder if Durrell would have made these distinctions.
>
> Certainly Durrell did change Justine into Melissa -- or so it seems -- early in the novel.
>
> Bill
>
>
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English    *           *
> University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
> OH 45221-0069 *  *
> ________________________________________
> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Charles Sligh [Charles-Sligh at utc.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:49 PM
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine
> Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
>
> Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>
>> Charles, what do Durrell's notebooks for /Justine,/ or other writings,
>> have to say about the genesis of the Hosnanis? Any suggestions about
>> why he decided to make the family Coptic instead of Jewish?
>>
>>
> Thanks for asking, Bruce.
>
> I will set to one side the "Why did Durrell do x or y?" question. I
> simply do not know.
>
> However, for the more factual questions--"What did Durrell do?" and
> "Where did Durrell do it?" and "When did Durrell do it?"--I will observe
> that, yes, Durrell did in fact draft several characters who were Jews in
> "The Book of the Dead/Notes for Alex" notebook.
>
> Once upon a time, Durrell sketched Melissa as a "black-eyed slave girl"
> with a Jewish father from Odessa. At some point in the drafting,
> Melissa's parentage, physical traits, and memories of childhood became
> those we now recognize as belonging to the character Justine.
>
> Durrell the Demiurge was kneading his clay a good deal, so to speak, and
> in the earliest drafts he unmade far more characters than he brought to
> term. As indicated by his working notes on a verso page of the same
> notebooks--"Cohen + Teresa Epstein = Melissa," the Melissa character
> seems to be fashioned from ribs taken from Yvette Cohen and Teresa Epstein.
>
> All of this business of "screens" and elusive race makes /poetic/ sense
> within the terms of the /Quartet/. Justine]Claudia apparently pretends
> to be a Greek:
>
>>          "I have been thinking about the girl I met last night in the
>>          mirror: dark on marble-ivory white: glossy black hair: deep
>>          suspiring eyes in which one's glances sink because they are
>>          nervous, curious, turned to sexual curiosity. She pretends to
>>          be a Greek, but she must be Jewish."
>
> In an interesting process of correspondence, Justine's original,
> Melissa, comes through the drafting process being distinguished as
> 'authentically' Greek. In the drafts, Melissa makes her debut in the
> same mirror, where she is described in terms that recall the finished
> character, Justine.
>
> Justine's father also seems to partake of subterfuge, making the
> following clarification necessary:
>
>>          'Walking through the Egyptian quarter the smell of flesh
>>          changes - ammoniac, sandalwood, saltpetre, spice, fish. She
>>          would not let me take her home - no doubt because she was
>>          ashamed of her house in these slums. Nevertheless she spoke
>>          wonderfully about her childhood. I have taken a few notes:
>>          returning home to find her father breaking walnuts with a
>>          little hammer on the table by the light of an oil-lamp. I can
>>          see him. He is no Greek but a Jew from Odessa in fur cap with
>>          greasy ringlets.'
>
> The genesis of that passage from /Justine/ appears early on in the
> "Notes for Alex," where Melissa's father is described:
>
>>          Melissa?s memories, the pound of walnuts her father broke
>>          with a little hammer on the table--fur cap--Jew from
>>          Odessa--in furs
>
> We can see here that Durrell added the Greek]Jew screen later. What is
> the connection? I can't say.
>
> Likewise, Arnauti pretends to be French, but like Claudia]Justine he is
> 'secretly' a Jew: "It takes a Jew to smell out a Jew; and neither of us
> has the courage to confess our true race. I have told her I am French.
> Sooner or later we shall find one another out."
>
> Among the various Jewish characters introduced early in /Justine/, old
> Cohen has always attracted me.
>
>>          For weeks her lover, the old furrier, followed me about the
>>          streets with a pistol sagging in the pocket of his overcoat.
>>          It was consoling to learn from one of Melissa's friends that
>>          it was unloaded, but it was nevertheless alarming to be
>>          haunted by this old man. Mentally we must have shot each other
>>          down at every street corner of the city. I for my part could
>>          not bear to look at that heavy pock-marked face with its
>>          bestial saturnine cluster of tormented features smeared on it
>>          - could not bear to think of his gross intimacies with her:
>>          those sweaty little hands covered as thickly as a porcupine
>>          with black hair. For a long time this went on and then after
>>          some months an extraordinary feeling of intimacy seemed to
>>          grow up between us. We nodded and smiled at each other when we
>>          met. Once, encountering him at a bar, I stood for nearly an
>>          hour beside him; we were on the point of talking to each
>>          other, yet somehow neither of us had the courage to begin it.
>>          There was no common subject of conversation save Melissa. As I
>>          was leaving I caught a glimpse of him in one of the long
>>          mirrors, his head bowed as he stared into the wineglass.
>>          Something about his attitude - the clumsy air of a trained
>>          seal grappling with human emotions - struck me, and I realized
>>          for the first time that he probably loved Melissa as much as I
>>          did. I pitied his ugliness, and the blank pained
>>          incomprehension with which he faced emotions so new to him as
>>          jealousy, the deprivation of a cherished mistress.
>>
>>          Afterwards, when they were turning out his pockets, I saw
>>          among the litter of odds and ends a small empty scent-bottle
>>          of the cheap kind that Melissa used; and I took it back to the
>>          flat, where it stayed on the mantelpiece for some months
>>          before it was thrown away by Hamid in the course of a
>>          spring-clean. I never told Melissa of this; but often when I
>>          was alone at night while she was dancing, perhaps of necessity
>>          sleeping with her admirers, I studied this small bottle, sadly
>>          and passionately reflecting on the horrible old man's love and
>>          measuring it against my own; and tasting too, vicariously, the
>>          desperation which makes one clutch at some small discarded
>>          object which is still impregnated with the betrayer's memory.
>
> Again, I can't answer the question "Why did Durrell not make the Hosnani
> clan Jewish?"
>
> I can ask:
>
>      * What does the reader make of the apparent sympathy between broken
>        or lost timepieces with Jewry?
>      * What particular qualities distinguish Cohen's Jewishness from the
>        Jewishness of Justine or Balthazar?
>      * How do "Syrian" and "Copt" and "Greek" seem different from "Jew"
>        within the imaginative terms of /Justine/?
>
> Charles
>
> --
> ********************************************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> charles-sligh at utc.edu
> ********************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>

From james.d.gifford at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 11:25:32 2010
From: james.d.gifford at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:25:32 -0700
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
In-Reply-To: <4C51B9D7.3060205@interdesign.fr>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>,
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444BD@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<4C51B9D7.3060205@interdesign.fr>
Message-ID: <4C51C79C.6040703@gmail.com>

On 29/07/10 10:26 AM, Marc Piel wrote:
> Surely Jews are people, not merely a religious sect. Like French,
> Poms, Yanks, etc... Marc

Very cute, Marc...  Point made.  I'm always curious why some forms of 
identity stick to us as "us" or "real" while others slide off pretty 
easily through paperwork or relocation -- for instance, I don't think 
that Constance's dual citizenship is an accident in the /Quintet/ 
accompanying her changes in sexuality and identity.

> Le 29/07/10 19:15, Godshalk, William (godshawl) a ?crit :
>> * How do "Syrian" and "Copt" and "Greek" seem different from "Jew"
>> within the imaginative terms of /Justine/?
>>
>> If you are a Syrian or a Greek, you can become an Egyptian by
>> moving there and becoming a citizen.
>>
>> Copt seems to be a kind of Christian, and you could move to
>> Cincinnati and still be a Copt.
>>
>> Jew seems to be an ethnicity that you take with you when you move
>> to Egypt -- or anywhere else.
>>
>> I wonder if Durrell would have made these distinctions.

One component we ought not to overlook is the time period.  Much of the 
drafting occurred after WWII and after Durrell had seen firsthand what 
was done to the Jewish population on Rhodes, first by the Fascist Mario 
de Vecchi and then by the Nazis.  Much of that content was cut from 
/Reflections on a Marine Venus/ by Anne Ridler, but it's still present 
in his other short prose works about Rhodes.  Living there with Eve, I'm 
sure he was fully aware of what dangers had been narrowly avoided.

As for citizenship, I think Durrell saw that in a much more slippery 
sense.  That said, "Greek" and "Egyptian" seem to carry more than just 
passports to identify themselves -- Durrell at least saw the first as a 
definite ethnicity united by language and customs.  The latter is 
certainly plural.

As for the Jewish <--> Coptic switches (which way for the arrows?), 
perhaps we're anticipating the "be ye members of one another" component 
of the Quintet, which I think comes forward more obviously because the 
notebook method being foregrounded, not simply due to Durrell's slippery 
notions of identity.

>> Certainly Durrell did change Justine into Melissa -- or so it seems
>> -- early in the novel.

Is this a difference in degree or in kind from the Jew<->Copt changes? 
Perhaps more puzzlingly, do the identity politics reflect Durrell's 
writing techniques in the notebooks, or did he fashion a notebook method 
to correspond with his notions of identity and such?  I'm generally 
inclined to see them as developing in tandem, but I think we'd need more 
of the early notebooks than we have in order to make that into something 
more sturdy for debate...

Best,
James

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 29 12:12:56 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 12:12:56 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Charles's Questions
In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444BD@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>,
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444BD@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <F38CF6F3-4D7C-4C6B-9D61-91F084331902@earthlink.net>

Bill, thanks for returning to Charles's important questions, overlooked and unanswered, but which I'll repeat:

> * What does the reader make of the apparent sympathy between broken
>      or lost timepieces with Jewry?
>    * What particular qualities distinguish Cohen's Jewishness from the
>      Jewishness of Justine or Balthazar?
>    * How do "Syrian" and "Copt" and "Greek" seem different from "Jew"
>      within the imaginative terms of /Justine/?

"Along the rain-swept Corniche" (AQ 80), Darley meets Balthazar, a Jew, with the name of a New Testament wise man, looking for an heirloom once belonging to his father, a lost watch-key (in the form, no less, of an Egyptian ankh, the hieroglyph of life), which means, of course, that his watch has stopped making Time ? all this surely composes one of the most provocative and memorable incidents in the entire Quartet, if I may be extravagant.  All that has the power of poetry.  We're dealing with "lost time" here, Proustian temps perdu, spatial time, and it's probably relevant that when Lawrence Durrell and Yvette Cohen, another Jew, have their first long rendezvous, Michael Haag reports that "for hours they walked along the Corniche" (City of Memory 230).  This scene Durrell probably writes on Cyprus, after the breakup of his marriage to Eve.  So, we have themes of lost wives, lost fathers, and lost time.  I'd like to hear Charles's interpretation of this scene.

Old Cohen the furrier doesn't seem to me Jewish at all, unless you want to attribute his occupation and physical description to Jewish stereotypes.  Those clich?s are overwhelmed by his grief.  What Durrell does so well in the description below is to humanize Cohen, in a way that Shakespeare is also able to do with Shylock.  And he does this, characteristically, through introducing a small and simple artifact, the "scent-bottle," which seems analogous to the "watch-key."  Small things bear a lot of weight in Durrell's oeuvre.

The third question is rather complicated.  But I'd argue that the Jew in Justine is the true outsider, the "other" who never fully integrates into Alexandrian society, which is historically cosmopolitan and unlike the rest of Egypt.  Somewhat like Leopold Bloom's situation in Ulysses.  Although distinct groups, Syrians, Greeks, and Copts can make a home in Alexandria, but Jews have an uneasy relationship with the culture, or so I sense.  They seem special, but this may be because Durrell, after all, focuses on Justine.  She and her Jewishness dominate the story.  Still, to go outside the novel, remember that Eve's family had been in Egypt a long time but had never acquired citizenship.  The Egyptians discriminated against Eve because she was Jewish.  Even though born and raised in Egypt, she didn't have the "papers" allowing her to leave the country, which caused LD a lot of trouble and bitterness.  That discrimination must have influenced his depiction of Jews in Justine.



Bruce







On Jul 29, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:

>    * How do "Syrian" and "Copt" and "Greek" seem different from "Jew"
>      within the imaginative terms of /Justine/?
> 
> If you are a Syrian or a Greek, you can become an Egyptian by moving there and becoming a citizen.
> 
> Copt seems to be a kind of Christian, and you could move to Cincinnati and still be a Copt.
> 
> Jew seems to be an ethnicity that you take with you when you move to Egypt -- or anywhere else. 
> 
> I wonder if Durrell would have made these distinctions. 
> 
> Certainly Durrell did change Justine into Melissa -- or so it seems -- early in the novel. 
> 
> Bill 
> 
> 
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English    *           *
> University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
> OH 45221-0069 *  *
> ________________________________________
> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Charles Sligh [Charles-Sligh at utc.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:49 PM
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine
> Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
> 
> Bruce Redwine wrote:
>> 
>> Charles, what do Durrell's notebooks for /Justine,/ or other writings,
>> have to say about the genesis of the Hosnanis? Any suggestions about
>> why he decided to make the family Coptic instead of Jewish?
>> 
>> 
> Thanks for asking, Bruce.
> 
> I will set to one side the "Why did Durrell do x or y?" question. I
> simply do not know.
> 
> However, for the more factual questions--"What did Durrell do?" and
> "Where did Durrell do it?" and "When did Durrell do it?"--I will observe
> that, yes, Durrell did in fact draft several characters who were Jews in
> "The Book of the Dead/Notes for Alex" notebook.
> 
> Once upon a time, Durrell sketched Melissa as a "black-eyed slave girl"
> with a Jewish father from Odessa. At some point in the drafting,
> Melissa's parentage, physical traits, and memories of childhood became
> those we now recognize as belonging to the character Justine.
> 
> Durrell the Demiurge was kneading his clay a good deal, so to speak, and
> in the earliest drafts he unmade far more characters than he brought to
> term. As indicated by his working notes on a verso page of the same
> notebooks--"Cohen + Teresa Epstein = Melissa," the Melissa character
> seems to be fashioned from ribs taken from Yvette Cohen and Teresa Epstein.
> 
> All of this business of "screens" and elusive race makes /poetic/ sense
> within the terms of the /Quartet/. Justine]Claudia apparently pretends
> to be a Greek:
> 
>>        "I have been thinking about the girl I met last night in the
>>        mirror: dark on marble-ivory white: glossy black hair: deep
>>        suspiring eyes in which one's glances sink because they are
>>        nervous, curious, turned to sexual curiosity. She pretends to
>>        be a Greek, but she must be Jewish."
> 
> In an interesting process of correspondence, Justine's original,
> Melissa, comes through the drafting process being distinguished as
> 'authentically' Greek. In the drafts, Melissa makes her debut in the
> same mirror, where she is described in terms that recall the finished
> character, Justine.
> 
> Justine's father also seems to partake of subterfuge, making the
> following clarification necessary:
> 
>>        'Walking through the Egyptian quarter the smell of flesh
>>        changes - ammoniac, sandalwood, saltpetre, spice, fish. She
>>        would not let me take her home - no doubt because she was
>>        ashamed of her house in these slums. Nevertheless she spoke
>>        wonderfully about her childhood. I have taken a few notes:
>>        returning home to find her father breaking walnuts with a
>>        little hammer on the table by the light of an oil-lamp. I can
>>        see him. He is no Greek but a Jew from Odessa in fur cap with
>>        greasy ringlets.'
> 
> The genesis of that passage from /Justine/ appears early on in the
> "Notes for Alex," where Melissa's father is described:
> 
>>        Melissa?s memories, the pound of walnuts her father broke
>>        with a little hammer on the table--fur cap--Jew from
>>        Odessa--in furs
> 
> We can see here that Durrell added the Greek]Jew screen later. What is
> the connection? I can't say.
> 
> Likewise, Arnauti pretends to be French, but like Claudia]Justine he is
> 'secretly' a Jew: "It takes a Jew to smell out a Jew; and neither of us
> has the courage to confess our true race. I have told her I am French.
> Sooner or later we shall find one another out."
> 
> Among the various Jewish characters introduced early in /Justine/, old
> Cohen has always attracted me.
> 
>>        For weeks her lover, the old furrier, followed me about the
>>        streets with a pistol sagging in the pocket of his overcoat.
>>        It was consoling to learn from one of Melissa's friends that
>>        it was unloaded, but it was nevertheless alarming to be
>>        haunted by this old man. Mentally we must have shot each other
>>        down at every street corner of the city. I for my part could
>>        not bear to look at that heavy pock-marked face with its
>>        bestial saturnine cluster of tormented features smeared on it
>>        - could not bear to think of his gross intimacies with her:
>>        those sweaty little hands covered as thickly as a porcupine
>>        with black hair. For a long time this went on and then after
>>        some months an extraordinary feeling of intimacy seemed to
>>        grow up between us. We nodded and smiled at each other when we
>>        met. Once, encountering him at a bar, I stood for nearly an
>>        hour beside him; we were on the point of talking to each
>>        other, yet somehow neither of us had the courage to begin it.
>>        There was no common subject of conversation save Melissa. As I
>>        was leaving I caught a glimpse of him in one of the long
>>        mirrors, his head bowed as he stared into the wineglass.
>>        Something about his attitude - the clumsy air of a trained
>>        seal grappling with human emotions - struck me, and I realized
>>        for the first time that he probably loved Melissa as much as I
>>        did. I pitied his ugliness, and the blank pained
>>        incomprehension with which he faced emotions so new to him as
>>        jealousy, the deprivation of a cherished mistress.
>> 
>>        Afterwards, when they were turning out his pockets, I saw
>>        among the litter of odds and ends a small empty scent-bottle
>>        of the cheap kind that Melissa used; and I took it back to the
>>        flat, where it stayed on the mantelpiece for some months
>>        before it was thrown away by Hamid in the course of a
>>        spring-clean. I never told Melissa of this; but often when I
>>        was alone at night while she was dancing, perhaps of necessity
>>        sleeping with her admirers, I studied this small bottle, sadly
>>        and passionately reflecting on the horrible old man's love and
>>        measuring it against my own; and tasting too, vicariously, the
>>        desperation which makes one clutch at some small discarded
>>        object which is still impregnated with the betrayer's memory.
> 
> Again, I can't answer the question "Why did Durrell not make the Hosnani
> clan Jewish?"
> 
> I can ask:
> 
>    * What does the reader make of the apparent sympathy between broken
>      or lost timepieces with Jewry?
>    * What particular qualities distinguish Cohen's Jewishness from the
>      Jewishness of Justine or Balthazar?
>    * How do "Syrian" and "Copt" and "Greek" seem different from "Jew"
>      within the imaginative terms of /Justine/?
> 
> Charles
> 
> --
> ********************************************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> charles-sligh at utc.edu
> ********************************************
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

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From lalexsternthal at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 12:27:38 2010
From: lalexsternthal at gmail.com (Lee Sternthal)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 12:27:38 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism
In-Reply-To: <00C0B12F-2F6D-46A3-893F-418F3BB02DC1@earthlink.net>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
	<52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>
	<4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<4C50A38F.9030908@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<AANLkTikWVZj0gQTa01gduLoOMDYhPKkb3di4Ks7yHAvp@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFA23D6758F147E9B93A0E38A6A03387@MumandDad>
	<00C0B12F-2F6D-46A3-893F-418F3BB02DC1@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimFy7cAr-Dyt02Zr=qOsSesMf7yi9kh1XGb2bE6@mail.gmail.com>

it's how vehemently people disagree with Israeli politics and the tone their
language can take on that leads to charges of anti-semitism.  it's about the
words conspiracy and cabal that are constantly linked with Israel.  in
Haaretz there is an actual discourse and debate about the past and the
future.  try having that debate or discourse in most other places in the
world; they simply don't allow for it, yet we say very little.  while there
is no denying that Israeli policy must and will change, the obsessive and
almost exclusive focus on Israel as a human rights violator by the rest of
the world is utterly disproportionate.  when you look at the issue
objectively, see all the human rights violations by so many countries
continuously that receive no press or no attention, it's hard not to believe
that there is collective group think out there that gets a little out of
control about not only Israel, but Jews.  i think this is based on the
contentious history and the obvious imagery; however, i'd like to think it's
because the Israelis, as a liberal democracy, are held to a higher standard
by the world.  unfortunately, i don't think this is the case.  i think a lot
of people just don't like jews.

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Bruce Redwine
<bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>wrote:

> I haven't read the "anti-Semitic" parts of the *Quintet* nor those of the
> pre-*Black Book* works.  But it's hard for me to believe Durrell had such
> tendencies, given his wives, love interests, and early advocacy of Israel
> itself.  James's comments about literary depictions of Jews and the
> difficulty in knowing what that means re Durrell himself and his attitude ?
> all that seems very apt and relevant.  As far as the state of Israel goes,
> his disillusionment with the country, if such, after the 1967 War seems to
> me completely understandable.  I share that attitude, and I don't consider
> myself anti-Semitic.  The trend these days is to brand anyone an anti-Semite
> who disagrees with the government of Israel's policies.  If that's the case,
> then a whole lot of Israelis are themselves anti-Semitic.  Read the Israeli
> newspaper *Haaretz* and have this point confirmed.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> On Jul 29, 2010, at 12:36 AM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote:
>
> James wrote:
>
> What I think is interesting in Durrell's case is his
> fairly clear support of Israel and investment in pro-Israel projects
> for his writing in tandem with what at least a few scholars have felt
> are antisemitic sentiments in his novel.
>
> David Green writes:
>
> Durrell's pro Israeli stance is, to me, not hard to fathom. He detested
> islam and clearly thought Palestine better occupied by the more ancient
> mediterranean judaic faith - and at least two of his lovers in the '48 -
> '58
> period, as mentioned, were jewish or part Jewish.
>
> Claude's death changed LD enormously but, as I have previously posted, a
> fear of terrorism may also have stopped the novel.
>
> Aso supporting Israeli in it's early days was a kind of heroic cause, the
> underdog and all that. My reading say that he stayed on a kibbutz at one
> time.
>
> Later,when the Israeli Right became big thugs, confident of victory, his
> support for zionist agenda became more qualified, if indeed it remained at
> all.
>
> David Green
>
> 16 William Street
> Marrickville NSW  2204
> +61 2 9564 6165
> 0412 707 625
> dtart at bigpond.net.au
> www.denisetart.com.au
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>


-- 
-----------------------------------------------
"...but why is the rum gone?!?!"
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 29 13:25:19 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 13:25:19 -0700
Subject: [ilds] "the courage to confess our true race"
In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444BD@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>,
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444BD@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <384856D3-00FA-48C6-B080-3CE3250190FB@earthlink.net>

Read Lucette Lugnado's The Man in the White Sharkskin Suit (2007).  Lucette's father, Leon, was a devout Jew, who also called himself an Arab and was fond of wearing a tarboosh.  I don't know how typical Leon was of Egyptian Jews, but he seems to have had a split identity:  the social sphere vs. the private.  His Jewish ethnicity, however, was indisputable.  He married a beautiful Jew and staunchly maintained Jewish traditions.  In Justine, the ethnic tradition doesn't seem as strong, to wit, Justine marries a Copt and old Cohen's great love is Greek.  This may be Durrell's reinterpretation of Jewishness, strongly influenced by Eve, who was a rebel and whose lovers could be either Jew or gentile.


Bruce



On Jul 29, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote:

>    * How do "Syrian" and "Copt" and "Greek" seem different from "Jew"
>      within the imaginative terms of /Justine/?
> 
> If you are a Syrian or a Greek, you can become an Egyptian by moving there and becoming a citizen.
> 
> Copt seems to be a kind of Christian, and you could move to Cincinnati and still be a Copt.
> 
> Jew seems to be an ethnicity that you take with you when you move to Egypt -- or anywhere else. 
> 
> I wonder if Durrell would have made these distinctions. 
> 
> Certainly Durrell did change Justine into Melissa -- or so it seems -- early in the novel. 
> 
> Bill 
> 
> 
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English    *           *
> University of Cincinnati*   * Stellar Disorder  *
> OH 45221-0069 *  *  *

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 29 13:56:14 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 13:56:14 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimFy7cAr-Dyt02Zr=qOsSesMf7yi9kh1XGb2bE6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
	<52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>
	<4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<4C50A38F.9030908@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<AANLkTikWVZj0gQTa01gduLoOMDYhPKkb3di4Ks7yHAvp@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFA23D6758F147E9B93A0E38A6A03387@MumandDad>
	<00C0B12F-2F6D-46A3-893F-418F3BB02DC1@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTimFy7cAr-Dyt02Zr=qOsSesMf7yi9kh1XGb2bE6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <89DC9431-6225-42D3-B2AD-4F30137C6EB6@earthlink.net>

I'll keep this short, since this debate is tangential to the main discussion.  Recent editorials in Haaretz question and condemn Israeli occupation of the West Bank, which is in part based on the religious claim to "The Promised Land."  I agree with that.  According to an Israeli peace group, Jewish settlements (over 300,000 people), now make up 41% of Palestinian territory.  If Israel wants to restore its moral position on the world stage, then it should get out of the West Bank.  I have doubts if Israel's present government is serious about that, however.


Bruce


 
On Jul 29, 2010, at 12:27 PM, Lee Sternthal wrote:

> it's how vehemently people disagree with Israeli politics and the tone their language can take on that leads to charges of anti-semitism.  it's about the words conspiracy and cabal that are constantly linked with Israel.  in Haaretz there is an actual discourse and debate about the past and the future.  try having that debate or discourse in most other places in the world; they simply don't allow for it, yet we say very little.  while there is no denying that Israeli policy must and will change, the obsessive and almost exclusive focus on Israel as a human rights violator by the rest of the world is utterly disproportionate.  when you look at the issue objectively, see all the human rights violations by so many countries continuously that receive no press or no attention, it's hard not to believe that there is collective group think out there that gets a little out of control about not only Israel, but Jews.  i think this is based on the contentious history and the obvious imagery; however, i'd like to think it's because the Israelis, as a liberal democracy, are held to a higher standard by the world.  unfortunately, i don't think this is the case.  i think a lot of people just don't like jews.   
> 
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> I haven't read the "anti-Semitic" parts of the Quintet nor those of the pre-Black Book works.  But it's hard for me to believe Durrell had such tendencies, given his wives, love interests, and early advocacy of Israel itself.  James's comments about literary depictions of Jews and the difficulty in knowing what that means re Durrell himself and his attitude ? all that seems very apt and relevant.  As far as the state of Israel goes, his disillusionment with the country, if such, after the 1967 War seems to me completely understandable.  I share that attitude, and I don't consider myself anti-Semitic.  The trend these days is to brand anyone an anti-Semite who disagrees with the government of Israel's policies.  If that's the case, then a whole lot of Israelis are themselves anti-Semitic.  Read the Israeli newspaper Haaretz and have this point confirmed.
> 
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 29, 2010, at 12:36 AM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote:
> 
>> James wrote:
>> 
>> What I think is interesting in Durrell's case is his
>> fairly clear support of Israel and investment in pro-Israel projects
>> for his writing in tandem with what at least a few scholars have felt
>> are antisemitic sentiments in his novel.
>> 
>> David Green writes:
>> 
>> Durrell's pro Israeli stance is, to me, not hard to fathom. He detested 
>> islam and clearly thought Palestine better occupied by the more ancient 
>> mediterranean judaic faith - and at least two of his lovers in the '48 - '58 
>> period, as mentioned, were jewish or part Jewish.
>> 
>> Claude's death changed LD enormously but, as I have previously posted, a 
>> fear of terrorism may also have stopped the novel.
>> 
>> Aso supporting Israeli in it's early days was a kind of heroic cause, the 
>> underdog and all that. My reading say that he stayed on a kibbutz at one 
>> time.
>> 
>> Later,when the Israeli Right became big thugs, confident of victory, his 
>> support for zionist agenda became more qualified, if indeed it remained at 
>> all.
>> 
>> David Green
>> 
>> 16 William Street
>> Marrickville NSW  2204
>> +61 2 9564 6165
>> 0412 707 625
>> dtart at bigpond.net.au
>> www.denisetart.com.au
>> 
> 
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From lalexsternthal at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 14:12:51 2010
From: lalexsternthal at gmail.com (Lee Sternthal)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:12:51 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism
In-Reply-To: <89DC9431-6225-42D3-B2AD-4F30137C6EB6@earthlink.net>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
	<52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>
	<4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<4C50A38F.9030908@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<AANLkTikWVZj0gQTa01gduLoOMDYhPKkb3di4Ks7yHAvp@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFA23D6758F147E9B93A0E38A6A03387@MumandDad>
	<00C0B12F-2F6D-46A3-893F-418F3BB02DC1@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTimFy7cAr-Dyt02Zr=qOsSesMf7yi9kh1XGb2bE6@mail.gmail.com>
	<89DC9431-6225-42D3-B2AD-4F30137C6EB6@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikpwsVwNxZc4+5HCd-FpoSqhN8JD8O_-AVBqL-M@mail.gmail.com>

Bruce,

I appreciate everything you've just said, but your political beliefs about
current Israeli policy and government were not the point of my post.  My
point, or, better yet, "explanation" was why anti-Zionism is so often
misconstrued with anti-Semitism, which you did not address.

And, on some level it's tangential, but on another it seems not to be.  This
ongoing debate about what anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism seems to be, if not
paramount to, then a strong vein in not only Durrell's work, but his life.

Best,
Lee

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Bruce Redwine
<bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>wrote:

> I'll keep this short, since this debate is tangential to the main
> discussion.  Recent editorials in *Haaretz* question and condemn Israeli
> occupation of the West Bank, which is in part based on the religious claim
> to "The Promised Land."  I agree with that.  According to an Israeli peace
> group, Jewish settlements (over 300,000 people), now make up 41% of
> Palestinian territory.  If Israel wants to restore its moral position on the
> world stage, then it should get out of the West Bank.  I have doubts if
> Israel's present government is serious about that, however.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> On Jul 29, 2010, at 12:27 PM, Lee Sternthal wrote:
>
> it's how vehemently people disagree with Israeli politics and the tone
> their language can take on that leads to charges of anti-semitism.  it's
> about the words conspiracy and cabal that are constantly linked with Israel.
>  in Haaretz there is an actual discourse and debate about the past and the
> future.  try having that debate or discourse in most other places in the
> world; they simply don't allow for it, yet we say very little.  while there
> is no denying that Israeli policy must and will change, the obsessive and
> almost exclusive focus on Israel as a human rights violator by the rest of
> the world is utterly disproportionate.  when you look at the issue
> objectively, see all the human rights violations by so many countries
> continuously that receive no press or no attention, it's hard not to believe
> that there is collective group think out there that gets a little out of
> control about not only Israel, but Jews.  i think this is based on the
> contentious history and the obvious imagery; however, i'd like to think it's
> because the Israelis, as a liberal democracy, are held to a higher standard
> by the world.  unfortunately, i don't think this is the case.  i think a lot
> of people just don't like jews.
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
> > wrote:
>
>> I haven't read the "anti-Semitic" parts of the *Quintet* nor those of the
>> pre-*Black Book* works.  But it's hard for me to believe Durrell had such
>> tendencies, given his wives, love interests, and early advocacy of Israel
>> itself.  James's comments about literary depictions of Jews and the
>> difficulty in knowing what that means re Durrell himself and his attitude ?
>> all that seems very apt and relevant.  As far as the state of Israel goes,
>> his disillusionment with the country, if such, after the 1967 War seems to
>> me completely understandable.  I share that attitude, and I don't consider
>> myself anti-Semitic.  The trend these days is to brand anyone an anti-Semite
>> who disagrees with the government of Israel's policies.  If that's the case,
>> then a whole lot of Israelis are themselves anti-Semitic.  Read the Israeli
>> newspaper *Haaretz* and have this point confirmed.
>>
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 29, 2010, at 12:36 AM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote:
>>
>> James wrote:
>>
>> What I think is interesting in Durrell's case is his
>> fairly clear support of Israel and investment in pro-Israel projects
>> for his writing in tandem with what at least a few scholars have felt
>> are antisemitic sentiments in his novel.
>>
>> David Green writes:
>>
>> Durrell's pro Israeli stance is, to me, not hard to fathom. He detested
>> islam and clearly thought Palestine better occupied by the more ancient
>> mediterranean judaic faith - and at least two of his lovers in the '48 -
>> '58
>> period, as mentioned, were jewish or part Jewish.
>>
>> Claude's death changed LD enormously but, as I have previously posted, a
>> fear of terrorism may also have stopped the novel.
>>
>> Aso supporting Israeli in it's early days was a kind of heroic cause, the
>> underdog and all that. My reading say that he stayed on a kibbutz at one
>> time.
>>
>> Later,when the Israeli Right became big thugs, confident of victory, his
>> support for zionist agenda became more qualified, if indeed it remained at
>>
>> all.
>>
>> David Green
>>
>> 16 William Street
>> Marrickville NSW  2204
>> +61 2 9564 6165
>> 0412 707 625
>> dtart at bigpond.net.au
>> www.denisetart.com.au
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>


-- 
-----------------------------------------------
"...but why is the rum gone?!?!"
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From gkoger at mindspring.com  Thu Jul 29 14:20:32 2010
From: gkoger at mindspring.com (gkoger at mindspring.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:20:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ilds] Golding & Durrell
Message-ID: <31269695.1280438432077.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

According to John Carey's new biography /William Golding: The Man Who Wrote Lord of the Flies/, Golding thought highly of Durrell's work. 

While writer-in-residence at Hollins College in 1961-62, Golding taught a course on the modern British novel. At first he wanted to range as far back as Wells's /The First Men in the Moon/ (what an inspired choice!) and conclude with the /AQ/, but after corresponding with the head of the department narrowed the list to post-1945 fiction. Apparently the head was concerned over the length and availability of the /AQ/, but Golding insisted that something by Durrell was "a must," and offered to "hand round" his wife's own copies of /Justine/ to the class. He prevailed, and the final list included the /AQ/. 

The biography is published by Faber in the UK and the Free Press in the US.

Grove



From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Thu Jul 29 14:59:19 2010
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 23:59:19 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikpwsVwNxZc4+5HCd-FpoSqhN8JD8O_-AVBqL-M@mail.gmail.com>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>	<52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>	<4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>	<4C50A38F.9030908@gmail.com>	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>	<AANLkTikWVZj0gQTa01gduLoOMDYhPKkb3di4Ks7yHAvp@mail.gmail.com>	<BFA23D6758F147E9B93A0E38A6A03387@MumandDad>	<00C0B12F-2F6D-46A3-893F-418F3BB02DC1@earthlink.net>	<AANLkTimFy7cAr-Dyt02Zr=qOsSesMf7yi9kh1XGb2bE6@mail.gmail.com>	<89DC9431-6225-42D3-B2AD-4F30137C6EB6@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTikpwsVwNxZc4+5HCd-FpoSqhN8JD8O_-AVBqL-M@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C51F9B7.3040709@interdesign.fr>

I think all this discussion brings out an 
interesting point: I think that I so much 
appreciated LD writing because I could relate to it.

Being able to relate does not necessarily mean 
being able to understand his standpoint (if there 
is one) on different subjects.

Personal understanding can act as a brake!

Surely just because some circumstances in the AQ 
were Anti-Semitic does not accuse LD of being 
Anti-Semitic.
Marc

Le 29/07/10 23:12, Lee Sternthal a ?crit :
> Bruce,
>
> I appreciate everything you've just said, but your political beliefs
> about current Israeli policy and government were not the point of my
> post.  My point, or, better yet, "explanation" was why anti-Zionism is
> so often misconstrued with anti-Semitism, which you did not address.
>
> And, on some level it's tangential, but on another it seems not to be.
>   This ongoing debate about what anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism seems to
> be, if not paramount to, then a strong vein in not only Durrell's work,
> but his life.
>
> Best,
> Lee
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Bruce Redwine
> <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>
>     I'll keep this short, since this debate is tangential to the main
>     discussion.  Recent editorials in /Haaretz/ question and condemn
>     Israeli occupation of the West Bank, which is in part based on the
>     religious claim to "The Promised Land."  I agree with that.
>       According to an Israeli peace group, Jewish settlements (over
>     300,000 people), now make up 41% of Palestinian territory.  If
>     Israel wants to restore its moral position on the world stage, then
>     it should get out of the West Bank.  I have doubts if
>     Israel's present government is serious about that, however.
>
>
>     Bruce
>
>
>
>     On Jul 29, 2010, at 12:27 PM, Lee Sternthal wrote:
>
>>     it's how vehemently people disagree with Israeli politics and the
>>     tone their language can take on that leads to charges of
>>     anti-semitism.  it's about the words conspiracy and cabal that are
>>     constantly linked with Israel.  in Haaretz there is an actual
>>     discourse and debate about the past and the future.  try having
>>     that debate or discourse in most other places in the world; they
>>     simply don't allow for it, yet we say very little.  while there is
>>     no denying that Israeli policy must and will change, the obsessive
>>     and almost exclusive focus on Israel as a human rights violator by
>>     the rest of the world is utterly disproportionate.  when you look
>>     at the issue objectively, see all the human rights violations by
>>     so many countries continuously that receive no press or no
>>     attention, it's hard not to believe that there is collective group
>>     think out there that gets a little out of control about not only
>>     Israel, but Jews.  i think this is based on the contentious
>>     history and the obvious imagery; however, i'd like to think it's
>>     because the Israelis, as a liberal democracy, are held to a higher
>>     standard by the world.  unfortunately, i don't think this is the
>>     case.  i think a lot of people just don't like jews.
>>
>>     On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Bruce Redwine
>>     <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net <mailto:bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>>
>>     wrote:
>>
>>         I haven't read the "anti-Semitic" parts of the /Quintet/ nor
>>         those of the pre-/Black Book/ works.  But it's hard for me to
>>         believe Durrell had such tendencies, given his wives, love
>>         interests, and early advocacy of Israel itself.  James's
>>         comments about literary depictions of Jews and the difficulty
>>         in knowing what that means re Durrell himself and his attitude
>>         ? all that seems very apt and relevant.  As far as the state
>>         of Israel goes, his disillusionment with the country, if such,
>>         after the 1967 War seems to me completely understandable.  I
>>         share that attitude, and I don't consider myself anti-Semitic.
>>          The trend these days is to brand anyone an anti-Semite who
>>         disagrees with the government of Israel's policies.  If that's
>>         the case, then a whole lot of Israelis are themselves
>>         anti-Semitic.  Read the Israeli newspaper /Haaretz/ and have
>>         this point confirmed.
>>
>>
>>         Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>>         On Jul 29, 2010, at 12:36 AM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote:
>>
>>>         James wrote:
>>>
>>>         What I think is interesting in Durrell's case is his
>>>         fairly clear support of Israel and investment in pro-Israel
>>>         projects
>>>         for his writing in tandem with what at least a few scholars
>>>         have felt
>>>         are antisemitic sentiments in his novel.
>>>
>>>         David Green writes:
>>>
>>>         Durrell's pro Israeli stance is, to me, not hard to fathom.
>>>         He detested
>>>         islam and clearly thought Palestine better occupied by the
>>>         more ancient
>>>         mediterranean judaic faith - and at least two of his lovers
>>>         in the '48 - '58
>>>         period, as mentioned, were jewish or part Jewish.
>>>
>>>         Claude's death changed LD enormously but, as I have
>>>         previously posted, a
>>>         fear of terrorism may also have stopped the novel.
>>>
>>>         Aso supporting Israeli in it's early days was a kind of
>>>         heroic cause, the
>>>         underdog and all that. My reading say that he stayed on a
>>>         kibbutz at one
>>>         time.
>>>
>>>         Later,when the Israeli Right became big thugs, confident of
>>>         victory, his
>>>         support for zionist agenda became more qualified, if indeed
>>>         it remained at
>>>         all.
>>>
>>>         David Green
>>>
>>>         16 William Street
>>>         Marrickville NSW  2204
>>>         +61 2 9564 6165
>>>         0412 707 625
>>>         dtart at bigpond.net.au <mailto:dtart at bigpond.net.au>
>>>         www.denisetart.com.au <http://www.denisetart.com.au/>
>>>
>>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     ILDS mailing list
>     ILDS at lists.uvic.ca <mailto:ILDS at lists.uvic.ca>
>     https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------
> "...but why is the rum gone?!?!"
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 29 15:11:33 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:11:33 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikpwsVwNxZc4+5HCd-FpoSqhN8JD8O_-AVBqL-M@mail.gmail.com>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
	<52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>
	<4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<4C50A38F.9030908@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<AANLkTikWVZj0gQTa01gduLoOMDYhPKkb3di4Ks7yHAvp@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFA23D6758F147E9B93A0E38A6A03387@MumandDad>
	<00C0B12F-2F6D-46A3-893F-418F3BB02DC1@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTimFy7cAr-Dyt02Zr=qOsSesMf7yi9kh1XGb2bE6@mail.gmail.com>
	<89DC9431-6225-42D3-B2AD-4F30137C6EB6@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTikpwsVwNxZc4+5HCd-FpoSqhN8JD8O_-AVBqL-M@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A775F4E6-1458-4FA4-82D3-685460CCD6F2@earthlink.net>

Lee,

I think you are confusing a forceful argument against Israel's foreign policy with "vehemence" and anti-Semiticism.  The former position is the way I read most of the criticism directed towards Israel nowadays.  Now, you're undoubtedly more sensitive to this issue than I am and have a different take, but I see it solely in terms of Israel's political objectives and its occupation of the West Bank for the last forty-three years.  As for Israel being treated unfairly re human rights, this is undoubtedly true.  Ian Buruma recently made this point in NYRB.  Israel is held to a higher moral standard, just as the United States is when conducting its various wars.  That's the way it is.  World opinion is not always fair, and it's easy to pick on and chastise a dominant power, which Israel certainly is today in the Middle East.  Both countries sometimes appear as bullies.  But that doesn't discount the abuses of both powers.

As I've said before, I don't see anti-Semiticism, nor anti-Zionism, in Durrell's work or, I should say, in the work I've read.  Perhaps you can elaborate on this subject and cite examples.


Bruce



On Jul 29, 2010, at 2:12 PM, Lee Sternthal wrote:

> Bruce,
> 
> I appreciate everything you've just said, but your political beliefs about current Israeli policy and government were not the point of my post.  My point, or, better yet, "explanation" was why anti-Zionism is so often misconstrued with anti-Semitism, which you did not address.
> 
> And, on some level it's tangential, but on another it seems not to be.  This ongoing debate about what anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism seems to be, if not paramount to, then a strong vein in not only Durrell's work, but his life.
> 
> Best,
> Lee 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> I'll keep this short, since this debate is tangential to the main discussion.  Recent editorials in Haaretz question and condemn Israeli occupation of the West Bank, which is in part based on the religious claim to "The Promised Land."  I agree with that.  According to an Israeli peace group, Jewish settlements (over 300,000 people), now make up 41% of Palestinian territory.  If Israel wants to restore its moral position on the world stage, then it should get out of the West Bank.  I have doubts if Israel's present government is serious about that, however.
> 
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
>  
> On Jul 29, 2010, at 12:27 PM, Lee Sternthal wrote:
> 
>> it's how vehemently people disagree with Israeli politics and the tone their language can take on that leads to charges of anti-semitism.  it's about the words conspiracy and cabal that are constantly linked with Israel.  in Haaretz there is an actual discourse and debate about the past and the future.  try having that debate or discourse in most other places in the world; they simply don't allow for it, yet we say very little.  while there is no denying that Israeli policy must and will change, the obsessive and almost exclusive focus on Israel as a human rights violator by the rest of the world is utterly disproportionate.  when you look at the issue objectively, see all the human rights violations by so many countries continuously that receive no press or no attention, it's hard not to believe that there is collective group think out there that gets a little out of control about not only Israel, but Jews.  i think this is based on the contentious history and the obvious imagery; however, i'd like to think it's because the Israelis, as a liberal democracy, are held to a higher standard by the world.  unfortunately, i don't think this is the case.  i think a lot of people just don't like jews.   
>> 
>> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> I haven't read the "anti-Semitic" parts of the Quintet nor those of the pre-Black Book works.  But it's hard for me to believe Durrell had such tendencies, given his wives, love interests, and early advocacy of Israel itself.  James's comments about literary depictions of Jews and the difficulty in knowing what that means re Durrell himself and his attitude ? all that seems very apt and relevant.  As far as the state of Israel goes, his disillusionment with the country, if such, after the 1967 War seems to me completely understandable.  I share that attitude, and I don't consider myself anti-Semitic.  The trend these days is to brand anyone an anti-Semite who disagrees with the government of Israel's policies.  If that's the case, then a whole lot of Israelis are themselves anti-Semitic.  Read the Israeli newspaper Haaretz and have this point confirmed.
>> 
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jul 29, 2010, at 12:36 AM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote:
>> 
>>> James wrote:
>>> 
>>> What I think is interesting in Durrell's case is his
>>> fairly clear support of Israel and investment in pro-Israel projects
>>> for his writing in tandem with what at least a few scholars have felt
>>> are antisemitic sentiments in his novel.
>>> 
>>> David Green writes:
>>> 
>>> Durrell's pro Israeli stance is, to me, not hard to fathom. He detested 
>>> islam and clearly thought Palestine better occupied by the more ancient 
>>> mediterranean judaic faith - and at least two of his lovers in the '48 - '58 
>>> period, as mentioned, were jewish or part Jewish.
>>> 
>>> Claude's death changed LD enormously but, as I have previously posted, a 
>>> fear of terrorism may also have stopped the novel.
>>> 
>>> Aso supporting Israeli in it's early days was a kind of heroic cause, the 
>>> underdog and all that. My reading say that he stayed on a kibbutz at one 
>>> time.
>>> 
>>> Later,when the Israeli Right became big thugs, confident of victory, his 
>>> support for zionist agenda became more qualified, if indeed it remained at 
>>> all.
>>> 
>>> David Green
>>> 
>>> 16 William Street
>>> Marrickville NSW  2204
>>> +61 2 9564 6165
>>> 0412 707 625
>>> dtart at bigpond.net.au
>>> www.denisetart.com.au
>>> 

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From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Thu Jul 29 15:23:17 2010
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 08:23:17 +1000
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net><166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net><51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net><4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu><52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net><4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com><94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu><4C50A38F.9030908@gmail.com><94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu><AANLkTikWVZj0gQTa01gduLoOMDYhPKkb3di4Ks7yHAvp@mail.gmail.com><BFA23D6758F147E9B93A0E38A6A03387@MumandDad><00C0B12F-2F6D-46A3-893F-418F3BB02DC1@earthlink.net><AANLkTimFy7cAr-Dyt02Zr=qOsSesMf7yi9kh1XGb2bE6@mail.gmail.com><89DC9431-6225-42D3-B2AD-4F30137C6EB6@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTikpwsVwNxZc4+5HCd-FpoSqhN8JD8O_-AVBqL-M@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <88C293A24F1D4F6A826CA4008CE845FF@MumandDad>

This ongoing debate about what anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism seems to be, if not paramount to, then a strong vein in not only Durrell's work, but his life.

Lee, It would be really good to see some more on this; specific examples from Durrell's texts and life. There is surely enough academic firepower out there on the ilds to provide this. This would give us something to talk to.

I am currently teaching the Arab/Israel conflict and so have an interest in Durrell's connection to it. The Brits stuffed it up in Palestine just as they did in Cyprus later on being oblivious to, or uncaring of, the aspirations of the local people; running places that were not colonies as if they were. Durrell was well aware of this (see Bitter Lemons)

And you are right there is a wide difference between anti Zionism and anti Semitism. Zionism is policy and agenda very much favoured by the Israeli Right since old Hertzl's time.

David Green


16 William Street
Marrickville NSW  2204
AUSTRALIA
+61 2 9564 6165
0412 707 625
dtart at bigpond.net.au
www.denisetart.com.au

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From lalexsternthal at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 16:48:58 2010
From: lalexsternthal at gmail.com (Lee Sternthal)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:48:58 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism
In-Reply-To: <88C293A24F1D4F6A826CA4008CE845FF@MumandDad>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
	<52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>
	<4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<4C50A38F.9030908@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<AANLkTikWVZj0gQTa01gduLoOMDYhPKkb3di4Ks7yHAvp@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFA23D6758F147E9B93A0E38A6A03387@MumandDad>
	<00C0B12F-2F6D-46A3-893F-418F3BB02DC1@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTimFy7cAr-Dyt02Zr=qOsSesMf7yi9kh1XGb2bE6@mail.gmail.com>
	<89DC9431-6225-42D3-B2AD-4F30137C6EB6@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTikpwsVwNxZc4+5HCd-FpoSqhN8JD8O_-AVBqL-M@mail.gmail.com>
	<88C293A24F1D4F6A826CA4008CE845FF@MumandDad>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinyPwRtDyQSV-iLawJwbbxMv2ry3e9N87x2ss8w@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for such thoughtful responses; I had no idea my comments would set
off such discussion, and I apologize if I interjected; I didn't mean to
insert such overt politics into the discussion.

Bruce, let me be clear that my intention was not to accuse L.D. of
anti-semitism in his life and work any more than my intention would be to
apologize for policies by any government on this planet that are racist,
prejudiced and could be associated with apartheid.  I feel you keep trying
to associate my responses with your personal political beliefs and take the
conversation in that direction.  If I may be blunt, I'm totally uninterested
in your personal political beliefs, in fact I would say they have no place
in this discussion at all.

What I do find fascinating is where anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism collide,
whether by attitude or by language, and to say they don't, at times, would
be fooling ourselves.  At times the criticism of anti-Zionism is clearly
valid, at other times it is simply a mask for a far more insidious agenda.
 This is not a personal attack on you, the purity of your political/moral
compass, or a defense of a policy, but an observation about the different
ways Zionism is critiqued and the response to that critique.

This being said there is clear line of the *fascination*, dare I say
exoticism of Jews and Jewry on the part of Durrell.  I can take you through
his work and cite some examples for you, but one can clearly see that being
part of the British Colonial establishment at this time, and living in
Alexandria when it was still such a cosmopolitan city, and was colliding
with so many culture, made him confront these issues in personal,
psychologically, political, sexual and emotional ways.  I don't know if one
would consider his letters to H. Miller as "work," but this fascination with
Jews can be found throughout on the part of both men.

As for citing works from his literary output in regards to his ambiguity
about Jews and Israel, well, not to be ironic, but I think I jumped into
this conversation because of the examples you cited previously in the chain.

Best,
Lee


On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Denise Tart & David Green <
dtart at bigpond.net.au> wrote:

>  This ongoing debate about what anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism seems to
> be, if not paramount to, then a strong vein in not only Durrell's work, but
> his life.
>
> Lee, It would be really good to see some more on this; specific examples
> from Durrell's texts and life. There is surely enough academic firepower out
> there on the ilds to provide this. This would give us something to talk to.
>
> I am currently teaching the Arab/Israel conflict and so have an interest in
> Durrell's connection to it. The Brits stuffed it up in Palestine just as
> they did in Cyprus later on being oblivious to, or uncaring of, the
> aspirations of the local people; running places that were not colonies as if
> they were. Durrell was well aware of this (see Bitter Lemons)
>
> And you are right there is a wide difference between anti Zionism and anti
> Semitism. Zionism is policy and agenda very much favoured by the Israeli
> Right since old Hertzl's time.
>
> David Green
>
>
> 16 William Street
> Marrickville NSW  2204
> AUSTRALIA
> +61 2 9564 6165
> 0412 707 625
> dtart at bigpond.net.au
> www.denisetart.com.au
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>


-- 
-----------------------------------------------
"...but why is the rum gone?!?!"
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 29 17:32:12 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:32:12 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinyPwRtDyQSV-iLawJwbbxMv2ry3e9N87x2ss8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
	<52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>
	<4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<4C50A38F.9030908@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<AANLkTikWVZj0gQTa01gduLoOMDYhPKkb3di4Ks7yHAvp@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFA23D6758F147E9B93A0E38A6A03387@MumandDad>
	<00C0B12F-2F6D-46A3-893F-418F3BB02DC1@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTimFy7cAr-Dyt02Zr=qOsSesMf7yi9kh1XGb2bE6@mail.gmail.com>
	<89DC9431-6225-42D3-B2AD-4F30137C6EB6@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTikpwsVwNxZc4+5HCd-FpoSqhN8JD8O_-AVBqL-M@mail.gmail.com>
	<88C293A24F1D4F6A826CA4008CE845FF@MumandDad>
	<AANLkTinyPwRtDyQSV-iLawJwbbxMv2ry3e9N87x2ss8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C6EF7777-8BD5-43DD-A660-6F2622E3823C@earthlink.net>

Lee,

It's hard to discuss a point when one side shifts positions and is not being specific.  I'll rest my case here.


Bruce



On Jul 29, 2010, at 4:48 PM, Lee Sternthal wrote:

> Thank you for such thoughtful responses; I had no idea my comments would set off such discussion, and I apologize if I interjected; I didn't mean to insert such overt politics into the discussion.  
> 
> Bruce, let me be clear that my intention was not to accuse L.D. of anti-semitism in his life and work any more than my intention would be to apologize for policies by any government on this planet that are racist, prejudiced and could be associated with apartheid.  I feel you keep trying to associate my responses with your personal political beliefs and take the conversation in that direction.  If I may be blunt, I'm totally uninterested in your personal political beliefs, in fact I would say they have no place in this discussion at all.  
> 
> What I do find fascinating is where anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism collide, whether by attitude or by language, and to say they don't, at times, would be fooling ourselves.  At times the criticism of anti-Zionism is clearly valid, at other times it is simply a mask for a far more insidious agenda.  This is not a personal attack on you, the purity of your political/moral compass, or a defense of a policy, but an observation about the different ways Zionism is critiqued and the response to that critique.  
> 
> This being said there is clear line of the fascination, dare I say exoticism of Jews and Jewry on the part of Durrell.  I can take you through his work and cite some examples for you, but one can clearly see that being part of the British Colonial establishment at this time, and living in Alexandria when it was still such a cosmopolitan city, and was colliding with so many culture, made him confront these issues in personal, psychologically, political, sexual and emotional ways.  I don't know if one would consider his letters to H. Miller as "work," but this fascination with Jews can be found throughout on the part of both men.   
> 
> As for citing works from his literary output in regards to his ambiguity about Jews and Israel, well, not to be ironic, but I think I jumped into this conversation because of the examples you cited previously in the chain.
> 
> Best,
> Lee  
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Denise Tart & David Green <dtart at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> This ongoing debate about what anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism seems to be, if not paramount to, then a strong vein in not only Durrell's work, but his life.
>  
> Lee, It would be really good to see some more on this; specific examples from Durrell's texts and life. There is surely enough academic firepower out there on the ilds to provide this. This would give us something to talk to.
>  
> I am currently teaching the Arab/Israel conflict and so have an interest in Durrell's connection to it. The Brits stuffed it up in Palestine just as they did in Cyprus later on being oblivious to, or uncaring of, the aspirations of the local people; running places that were not colonies as if they were. Durrell was well aware of this (see Bitter Lemons)
>  
> And you are right there is a wide difference between anti Zionism and anti Semitism. Zionism is policy and agenda very much favoured by the Israeli Right since old Hertzl's time.
>  
> David Green
>  
>  
> 16 William Street
> Marrickville NSW  2204
> AUSTRALIA
> +61 2 9564 6165
> 0412 707 625
> dtart at bigpond.net.au
> www.denisetart.com.au
>  

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From lalexsternthal at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 17:36:31 2010
From: lalexsternthal at gmail.com (Lee Sternthal)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:36:31 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinyPwRtDyQSV-iLawJwbbxMv2ry3e9N87x2ss8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <398F2C9A-AFB9-4103-A948-5AD50D96C2EA@earthlink.net>
	<166208.86054.qm@web65802.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<A84483AA-B378-4E0C-A5E2-71CAAB2B2941@earthlink.net>
	<51184.37881.qm@web65810.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<533B4E36-0434-442E-A01E-37956F813430@earthlink.net>
	<4C506DC4.5080007@utc.edu>
	<52802F99-2A4D-469A-8676-9215A06A1136@earthlink.net>
	<4C509EEF.3010706@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B7@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<4C50A38F.9030908@gmail.com>
	<94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C630D444B9@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>
	<AANLkTikWVZj0gQTa01gduLoOMDYhPKkb3di4Ks7yHAvp@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFA23D6758F147E9B93A0E38A6A03387@MumandDad>
	<00C0B12F-2F6D-46A3-893F-418F3BB02DC1@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTimFy7cAr-Dyt02Zr=qOsSesMf7yi9kh1XGb2bE6@mail.gmail.com>
	<89DC9431-6225-42D3-B2AD-4F30137C6EB6@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTikpwsVwNxZc4+5HCd-FpoSqhN8JD8O_-AVBqL-M@mail.gmail.com>
	<88C293A24F1D4F6A826CA4008CE845FF@MumandDad>
	<AANLkTinyPwRtDyQSV-iLawJwbbxMv2ry3e9N87x2ss8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinJOzM75BXaUM23aOZ8ejaXybKkVsyXk8e1DERC@mail.gmail.com>

By the way, David, if you haven't encountered it, I highly recommend Oriana
Fallacci's interview with Gold Meir in "Interview With History."  It is
fascinating reading in regards to the roots, philosophy and practice of
Zionism, whether one agrees or disagrees with Ms. Meir's views.  It is the
best elucidation of Zionism's roots I have ever read.  To understand the
current conflict from the Israeli side I would say that it's required
reading, along with the NYRB's current article by Peter Beinart entitled
"The Failure of The Jewish Establishment" which, in my estimation is as
prescient an article as I have read.

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Lee Sternthal <lalexsternthal at gmail.com>wrote:

> Thank you for such thoughtful responses; I had no idea my comments would
> set off such discussion, and I apologize if I interjected; I didn't mean to
> insert such overt politics into the discussion.
>
> Bruce, let me be clear that my intention was not to accuse L.D. of
> anti-semitism in his life and work any more than my intention would be to
> apologize for policies by any government on this planet that are racist,
> prejudiced and could be associated with apartheid.  I feel you keep trying
> to associate my responses with your personal political beliefs and take the
> conversation in that direction.  If I may be blunt, I'm totally uninterested
> in your personal political beliefs, in fact I would say they have no place
> in this discussion at all.
>
> What I do find fascinating is where anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism collide,
> whether by attitude or by language, and to say they don't, at times, would
> be fooling ourselves.  At times the criticism of anti-Zionism is clearly
> valid, at other times it is simply a mask for a far more insidious agenda.
>  This is not a personal attack on you, the purity of your political/moral
> compass, or a defense of a policy, but an observation about the different
> ways Zionism is critiqued and the response to that critique.
>
> This being said there is clear line of the *fascination*, dare I say
> exoticism of Jews and Jewry on the part of Durrell.  I can take you through
> his work and cite some examples for you, but one can clearly see that being
> part of the British Colonial establishment at this time, and living in
> Alexandria when it was still such a cosmopolitan city, and was colliding
> with so many culture, made him confront these issues in personal,
> psychologically, political, sexual and emotional ways.  I don't know if one
> would consider his letters to H. Miller as "work," but this fascination with
> Jews can be found throughout on the part of both men.
>
> As for citing works from his literary output in regards to his ambiguity
> about Jews and Israel, well, not to be ironic, but I think I jumped into
> this conversation because of the examples you cited previously in the chain.
>
> Best,
> Lee
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Denise Tart & David Green <
> dtart at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>>  This ongoing debate about what anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism seems to
>> be, if not paramount to, then a strong vein in not only Durrell's work, but
>> his life.
>>
>> Lee, It would be really good to see some more on this; specific examples
>> from Durrell's texts and life. There is surely enough academic firepower out
>> there on the ilds to provide this. This would give us something to talk to.
>>
>> I am currently teaching the Arab/Israel conflict and so have an interest
>> in Durrell's connection to it. The Brits stuffed it up in Palestine just as
>> they did in Cyprus later on being oblivious to, or uncaring of, the
>> aspirations of the local people; running places that were not colonies as if
>> they were. Durrell was well aware of this (see Bitter Lemons)
>>
>> And you are right there is a wide difference between anti Zionism and anti
>> Semitism. Zionism is policy and agenda very much favoured by the Israeli
>> Right since old Hertzl's time.
>>
>> David Green
>>
>>
>> 16 William Street
>> Marrickville NSW  2204
>> AUSTRALIA
>> +61 2 9564 6165
>> 0412 707 625
>> dtart at bigpond.net.au
>> www.denisetart.com.au
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------
> "...but why is the rum gone?!?!"
>



-- 
-----------------------------------------------
"...but why is the rum gone?!?!"
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From dkaczv at latech.edu  Fri Jul 30 06:10:06 2010
From: dkaczv at latech.edu (Don Kaczvinsky)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 08:10:06 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Political Plot
Message-ID: <4C52CF2E.4040702@latech.edu>

Bruce--

If you look at the earliest ms versions of Justine in the BL,  Durrell 
provides a lengthy piece presenting Scobie as head of the Secret Service 
talking to Darley about his [Darley's] friends being involved in a 
political plot. The lengthy passage is copied just about word for word 
into Justine. Of course, Scobie thinks Balthazar is the ring leader. So 
even if Durrell didn't know the details, he was thinking of spies and 
political intrigue as underpinning the book early in the writing. He may 
have gotten the characters and details afterward, using Claude's info. 
You might note too that Durrell was writing a spy thriller, White 
Eagles, at just about the same time.

Don

From timlot at comcast.net  Fri Jul 30 11:17:04 2010
From: timlot at comcast.net (timlot at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:17:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism
In-Reply-To: <A775F4E6-1458-4FA4-82D3-685460CCD6F2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <809061470.976014.1280513824018.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>


A brief comment on the subject - 

Thessaloniki (old Salonika) in northern Greece had a thriving Jewish population prior to WWII.? Many of my Greek friends who grew up there in the 1940's would never discuss the deportation of their neighbors in great detail, although their families "inherited" chandeliers, furniture, etc. from those neighbors who never returned.? At least in Thessaloniki, there was a feeling that the Ottoman Turks had shown preferential treatment to the Jews during the Ottoman occupation.? Thessaloniki had a strong history of harboring the Jews following the Spanish inquisition.? I know this feeling was also shared by friends from Kavalla in northern Greece, and by other Greek friends of mine from several areas in Greece. 

A couple of years ago, a Greek organization co-sponsored a lecture on Thessaloniki during WWII at the Holocaust Museum in Houston (where I live).? Although many members of the Greek community in Houston emigrated from Thessaloniki, especially during the military junta of the late 60's/early 70's, only about 7 members of the entire Greek community showed up. 

Not blatant anti-Semitism - but, perhaps cultural embedding.? 

Merrianne Timko 

_______________________________________________ 
ILDS mailing list 
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca 
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds 
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 30 12:06:15 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:06:15 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Political Plot
In-Reply-To: <4C52CF2E.4040702@latech.edu>
References: <4C52CF2E.4040702@latech.edu>
Message-ID: <FDC58477-9DF2-40AA-8907-7F2254DFCA54@earthlink.net>

Don,

Thanks for refreshing my memory about the "plot" in Justine.  I had to go back to the text.  The relevant section is on p. 155 of the Penguin ed. (1985), where Scobie tells Darley, "The most dangerous gang of all is right here, in Alexandria."  Yes, from the beginning, Durrell was clearly thinking about intrigue, although the nature of the conspiracy is shadowy.  If Haag is correct, that Durrell originally planned Justine as a single novel, then Durrell need not have worked out the details of the plot in Palestine.  As you said, Claude Vincendon would later provide that.  So, the original plan would be to create a lot of mystery and multi-layered reality, which would have fit in with the general ambiance of the novel itself.  One point re my interest in "screens."

Scobie's "dangerous gang" is the "Cabal," which is led by Balthazar, who is, in his own words, "a Jew, with all the Jew's bloodthirsty interest in the ratiocinative faculty" (p. 93).  Someone looking for anti-Semiticism might ask, why "bloodthirsty?"  But I read this as the doctor's sense of self-deprecating irony (not "self-hating," in today's jargon).  Nevertheless, the Cabal seems, as Durrell presents it in several sections, to be largely a Jewish secret society, the object of whose study is, appropriately enough, the Jewish "Cabbalah" (p. 95), with some of the Hermetica mixed in.  We even have an inner circle of "twelve members" scattered around the Levant and North Africa (p. 101) ? a number which rings Judeo-Christian bells.  Apparently, the only Gentiles in this group are Nessim and Darley.

All this is a long way to say that Nessim, although on one occasion labeled a "Copt" (p. 27), has almost no Coptic identity in Justine.  His Coptic background is developed in the later novels, particularly Mountolive.  By marriage, by profession, by wealth, by aristocratic bearing, and by metaphysical interests, Nessim appears to me largely Jewish.  That is to say, in Justine, he serve could serve as a fine representative of the Menasce family in Alexandria or any other of the city's haute juiverie.



Bruce


 
On Jul 30, 2010, at 6:10 AM, Don Kaczvinsky wrote:

> Bruce--
> 
> If you look at the earliest ms versions of Justine in the BL,  Durrell 
> provides a lengthy piece presenting Scobie as head of the Secret Service 
> talking to Darley about his [Darley's] friends being involved in a 
> political plot. The lengthy passage is copied just about word for word 
> into Justine. Of course, Scobie thinks Balthazar is the ring leader. So 
> even if Durrell didn't know the details, he was thinking of spies and 
> political intrigue as underpinning the book early in the writing. He may 
> have gotten the characters and details afterward, using Claude's info. 
> You might note too that Durrell was writing a spy thriller, White 
> Eagles, at just about the same time.
> 
> Don
> 

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From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu  Fri Jul 30 12:41:08 2010
From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:41:08 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Judeo-Coptic
In-Reply-To: <FDC58477-9DF2-40AA-8907-7F2254DFCA54@earthlink.net>
References: <4C52CF2E.4040702@latech.edu>
	<FDC58477-9DF2-40AA-8907-7F2254DFCA54@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4C532AD4.5070105@utc.edu>

> 'To a Frenchman the love here is interesting.  They act before they 
> reflect.  When the time comes to doubt, to suffer remorse, it is too 
> hot, nobody has the energy.  It lacks /finesse/, this animalism, but 
> it suits me.  I've worn out my heart and head with love, and want to 
> be left alone - above all, /mon cher/, from this Judeo-Coptic mania 
> for /dissection/, for analysing the subject.  I want to return to my 
> farmhouse in Normandy heart-whole.' ~~ /Justine/ 1.12 (21/24)

I see that the first racial designation of "Copt" or "Jew" in /Justine/ 
comes in a hybrid reference, "Judeo-Copt."  That is an unusual blend, I 
believe.  What does that mean?  Why would Pombal not merely invoke 
"Judeo-Christian"?

The second reference to "Copt" comes with the introduction of "'Prince' 
Nessim": "To begin with he was a Copt, not a Moslem" (/Justine/ 1.16 
[27/29]).  That qualified designation requires a bit of cognition to 
puzzle out.  The reader is asked to imagine a character who might be 
mistaken for /x/, but in reality is /y/.  

(The earliest rendering reads, "He was a Copt, to begin with[. . . .], 
omitting the glance back at "Moslem" identity.)

Given these two examples, I would say that in these early pages of 
/Justine/ that the Copt appears to be imagined as a hinge group, set in 
the middle of other peoples--"Jew-Copt-Moslem."

Charles

-- 
********************************************
Charles L. Sligh
Assistant Professor
Department of English
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
charles-sligh at utc.edu
********************************************


From lalexsternthal at gmail.com  Fri Jul 30 12:06:37 2010
From: lalexsternthal at gmail.com (Lee Sternthal)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:06:37 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism
In-Reply-To: <809061470.976014.1280513824018.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <A775F4E6-1458-4FA4-82D3-685460CCD6F2@earthlink.net>
	<809061470.976014.1280513824018.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=L1_q-u53hQs-N0LNZp7hzX0A1vqyT01QXGdrj@mail.gmail.com>

Veryy good, Bruce, because I don't think anyone actually knew what your
"case" was.

L

On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 11:17 AM, <timlot at comcast.net> wrote:

> A brief comment on the subject -
>
> Thessaloniki (old Salonika) in northern Greece had a thriving Jewish
> population prior to WWII.  Many of my Greek friends who grew up there in the
> 1940's would never discuss the deportation of their neighbors in great
> detail, although their families "inherited" chandeliers, furniture, etc.
> from those neighbors who never returned.  At least in Thessaloniki, there
> was a feeling that the Ottoman Turks had shown preferential treatment to the
> Jews during the Ottoman occupation.  Thessaloniki had a strong history of
> harboring the Jews following the Spanish inquisition.  I know this feeling
> was also shared by friends from Kavalla in northern Greece, and by other
> Greek friends of mine from several areas in Greece.
>
> A couple of years ago, a Greek organization co-sponsored a lecture on
> Thessaloniki during WWII at the Holocaust Museum in Houston (where I live).
> Although many members of the Greek community in Houston emigrated from
> Thessaloniki, especially during the military junta of the late 60's/early
> 70's, only about 7 members of the entire Greek community showed up.
>
> Not blatant anti-Semitism - but, perhaps cultural embedding.
>
> Merrianne Timko
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>


-- 
-----------------------------------------------
"...but why is the rum gone?!?!"
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 30 12:47:25 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:47:25 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Kabbalah
Message-ID: <EC98C64C-99E5-4ED7-A606-F95FA3230540@earthlink.net>

Any thoughts on just what Balthazar's "Cabal" was studying in the "Cabbalah" or Kabbalah?  Is this the real source of Durrell's interests in Jewry or Jewishness?


Bruce



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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 30 13:05:57 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 13:05:57 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Judeo-Coptic
In-Reply-To: <4C532AD4.5070105@utc.edu>
References: <4C52CF2E.4040702@latech.edu>
	<FDC58477-9DF2-40AA-8907-7F2254DFCA54@earthlink.net>
	<4C532AD4.5070105@utc.edu>
Message-ID: <92921476-246C-4E8D-9A5B-CD65F20CF99B@earthlink.net>

I'll add that Egyptian Copts (yes, something of a tautology) and Egyptian Moslems are hard to distinguish, to my untrained eye at least.  Copts are considered the original Egyptians, but that description probably applies to Egyptian Moslems as well, whose stock, I'd wager, also goes back to the Ancient Egyptians.  So, when the narrator says about Nessim, "To begin with he was a Copt, not a Moslem," that seems to me a necessary bit of clarification, since both have similar characteristics.


Bruce



On Jul 30, 2010, at 12:41 PM, Charles Sligh wrote:

>> 'To a Frenchman the love here is interesting.  They act before they 
>> reflect.  When the time comes to doubt, to suffer remorse, it is too 
>> hot, nobody has the energy.  It lacks /finesse/, this animalism, but 
>> it suits me.  I've worn out my heart and head with love, and want to 
>> be left alone - above all, /mon cher/, from this Judeo-Coptic mania 
>> for /dissection/, for analysing the subject.  I want to return to my 
>> farmhouse in Normandy heart-whole.' ~~ /Justine/ 1.12 (21/24)
> 
> I see that the first racial designation of "Copt" or "Jew" in /Justine/ 
> comes in a hybrid reference, "Judeo-Copt."  That is an unusual blend, I 
> believe.  What does that mean?  Why would Pombal not merely invoke 
> "Judeo-Christian"?
> 
> The second reference to "Copt" comes with the introduction of "'Prince' 
> Nessim": "To begin with he was a Copt, not a Moslem" (/Justine/ 1.16 
> [27/29]).  That qualified designation requires a bit of cognition to 
> puzzle out.  The reader is asked to imagine a character who might be 
> mistaken for /x/, but in reality is /y/.  
> 
> (The earliest rendering reads, "He was a Copt, to begin with[. . . .], 
> omitting the glance back at "Moslem" identity.)
> 
> Given these two examples, I would say that in these early pages of 
> /Justine/ that the Copt appears to be imagined as a hinge group, set in 
> the middle of other peoples--"Jew-Copt-Moslem."
> 
> Charles
> 
> -- 
> ********************************************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> charles-sligh at utc.edu
> ********************************************
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 30 14:57:49 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:57:49 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=L1_q-u53hQs-N0LNZp7hzX0A1vqyT01QXGdrj@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A775F4E6-1458-4FA4-82D3-685460CCD6F2@earthlink.net>
	<809061470.976014.1280513824018.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<AANLkTi=L1_q-u53hQs-N0LNZp7hzX0A1vqyT01QXGdrj@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1BD360F-81A2-4DF5-89C5-5442408D9F1F@earthlink.net>

Lee,

I think Merrianne Timko has provided a very interesting and informative anecdote about the Jewish situation in Thessaloniki.  I hope you agree with that.


Bruce



On Jul 30, 2010, at 12:06 PM, Lee Sternthal wrote:

> Veryy good, Bruce, because I don't think anyone actually knew what your "case" was.
> 
> L  
> 
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 11:17 AM, <timlot at comcast.net> wrote:
> A brief comment on the subject -
>  
> Thessaloniki (old Salonika) in northern Greece had a thriving Jewish population prior to WWII.  Many of my Greek friends who grew up there in the 1940's would never discuss the deportation of their neighbors in great detail, although their families "inherited" chandeliers, furniture, etc. from those neighbors who never returned.  At least in Thessaloniki, there was a feeling that the Ottoman Turks had shown preferential treatment to the Jews during the Ottoman occupation.  Thessaloniki had a strong history of harboring the Jews following the Spanish inquisition.  I know this feeling was also shared by friends from Kavalla in northern Greece, and by other Greek friends of mine from several areas in Greece.
>  
> A couple of years ago, a Greek organization co-sponsored a lecture on Thessaloniki during WWII at the Holocaust Museum in Houston (where I live).  Although many members of the Greek community in Houston emigrated from Thessaloniki, especially during the military junta of the late 60's/early 70's, only about 7 members of the entire Greek community showed up.
>  
> Not blatant anti-Semitism - but, perhaps cultural embedding. 
>  
> Merrianne Timko
> 

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From lillios at mail.ucf.edu  Fri Jul 30 15:12:11 2010
From: lillios at mail.ucf.edu (Anna Lillios)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:12:11 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Stereotyping
Message-ID: <4C5315FB0200004D0005AF7C@mail.ucf.edu>

I'm finding it hard to figure out what point(s) are being made in the remarks below.  In the first paragraph, the implication is that Salonika Greeks treated Jews more harshly than the Turks.  In the second, that Greeks showed their disdain for the Holocaust by not showing up for a meeting in Houston.  I'm wondering if anyone surveyed ALL the members of the Greek community in Houston to discern their attitudes/ beliefs, etc. and why they didn't attend.  Does attendance mean that they don't care about Jews?  How many Greeks would need to attend to prove concern over the fate of Jews during WW2?  Etc.

     I'm distressed that judgments are being made about Greeks, Jews, Copts as if they are stereotypes--and not basing these beliefs on any sociological evidence.  

     --Anna Lillios


Dr. Anna Lillios
Associate Professor of English
Department of English
University of Central Florida
P.O. Box 161346
Orlando, Florida 32816-1346

Phone: (407) 823-5161
FAX: (407) 823-6582
>>> <timlot at comcast.net> 07/30/10 2:33 PM >>>

A brief comment on the subject - 

Thessaloniki (old Salonika) in northern Greece had a thriving Jewish population prior to WWII.  Many of my Greek friends who grew up there in the 1940's would never discuss the deportation of their neighbors in great detail, although their families "inherited" chandeliers, furniture, etc. from those neighbors who never returned.  At least in Thessaloniki, there was a feeling that the Ottoman Turks had shown preferential treatment to the Jews during the Ottoman occupation.  Thessaloniki had a strong history of harboring the Jews following the Spanish inquisition.  I know this feeling was also shared by friends from Kavalla in northern Greece, and by other Greek friends of mine from several areas in Greece. 

A couple of years ago, a Greek organization co-sponsored a lecture on Thessaloniki during WWII at the Holocaust Museum in Houston (where I live).  Although many members of the Greek community in Houston emigrated from Thessaloniki, especially during the military junta of the late 60's/early 70's, only about 7 members of the entire Greek community showed up. 

Not blatant anti-Semitism - but, perhaps cultural embedding.  

Merrianne Timko 

_______________________________________________ 
ILDS mailing list 
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca 
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds 



From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Fri Jul 30 16:12:49 2010
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 09:12:49 +1000
Subject: [ilds] eclectic Gnostic
Message-ID: <D67FC31749DC4493A0C344E2EBD8B85C@MumandDad>

Let us all be mindful that LD was an eclectic gnostic and the Kabbalah fuelled his transcendental quest to peer into his heraldic consciousness... For those who wish to merge with Lawrence's mindscape I think it fair to say that for him the kabbalah is the central  heart of judaism with all other aspects of jewry being secondary and epiphenomenal. Therefore in depth discussions about antisemitism vs antizionism are best supplanted by an LD orientated exploration of his beloved kabbalah!

David




16 William Street
Marrickville NSW  2204
+61 2 9564 6165
0412 707 625
dtart at bigpond.net.au
www.denisetart.com.au
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 30 16:33:51 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 16:33:51 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Stereotyping
In-Reply-To: <4C5315FB0200004D0005AF7C@mail.ucf.edu>
References: <4C5315FB0200004D0005AF7C@mail.ucf.edu>
Message-ID: <CDC50595-E9F6-49F1-A9CF-A2527384B5FB@earthlink.net>

Ms. Timko can speak for herself, but I'm not distressed by her comments, and I don't see the relevance of the charge of "stereotypes."  If no one can speak without the authority of "sociological evidence," then discussions about Greeks, Jews, and Copts will be limited to a few bland remarks.


Bruce


 
On Jul 30, 2010, at 3:12 PM, Anna Lillios wrote:

> I'm finding it hard to figure out what point(s) are being made in the remarks below.  In the first paragraph, the implication is that Salonika Greeks treated Jews more harshly than the Turks.  In the second, that Greeks showed their disdain for the Holocaust by not showing up for a meeting in Houston.  I'm wondering if anyone surveyed ALL the members of the Greek community in Houston to discern their attitudes/ beliefs, etc. and why they didn't attend.  Does attendance mean that they don't care about Jews?  How many Greeks would need to attend to prove concern over the fate of Jews during WW2?  Etc.
> 
>     I'm distressed that judgments are being made about Greeks, Jews, Copts as if they are stereotypes--and not basing these beliefs on any sociological evidence.  
> 
>     --Anna Lillios
> 
> 
> Dr. Anna Lillios
> Associate Professor of English
> Department of English
> University of Central Florida
> P.O. Box 161346
> Orlando, Florida 32816-1346
> 
> Phone: (407) 823-5161
> FAX: (407) 823-6582
>>>> <timlot at comcast.net> 07/30/10 2:33 PM >>>
> 
> A brief comment on the subject - 
> 
> Thessaloniki (old Salonika) in northern Greece had a thriving Jewish population prior to WWII.  Many of my Greek friends who grew up there in the 1940's would never discuss the deportation of their neighbors in great detail, although their families "inherited" chandeliers, furniture, etc. from those neighbors who never returned.  At least in Thessaloniki, there was a feeling that the Ottoman Turks had shown preferential treatment to the Jews during the Ottoman occupation.  Thessaloniki had a strong history of harboring the Jews following the Spanish inquisition.  I know this feeling was also shared by friends from Kavalla in northern Greece, and by other Greek friends of mine from several areas in Greece. 
> 
> A couple of years ago, a Greek organization co-sponsored a lecture on Thessaloniki during WWII at the Holocaust Museum in Houston (where I live).  Although many members of the Greek community in Houston emigrated from Thessaloniki, especially during the military junta of the late 60's/early 70's, only about 7 members of the entire Greek community showed up. 
> 
> Not blatant anti-Semitism - but, perhaps cultural embedding.  
> 
> Merrianne Timko 
> 



From ilyas.khan at crosby.com  Fri Jul 30 16:52:56 2010
From: ilyas.khan at crosby.com (Ilyas)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 00:52:56 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Judeo-Coptic
In-Reply-To: <4C532AD4.5070105@utc.edu>
Message-ID: <C8792468.29ABF%ilyas.khan@crosby.com>

Charles, I think you have managed to isolate and thereby clarify a point of
"intent" with LD with respect to Nessim's religio-cultural mindset. There
could have been many people raised as copts but with latent pro-zionism
(zionism in its then prevalent form) feelings.

The opposite (a copt with pro muslim feelings) is likely to have been less
prevalent.

Ilyas


On 30/07/2010 20:41, "csligh" <Charles-Sligh at utc.edu> wrote:

>> 'To a Frenchman the love here is interesting.  They act before they
>> reflect.  When the time comes to doubt, to suffer remorse, it is too
>> hot, nobody has the energy.  It lacks /finesse/, this animalism, but
>> it suits me.  I've worn out my heart and head with love, and want to
>> be left alone - above all, /mon cher/, from this Judeo-Coptic mania
>> for /dissection/, for analysing the subject.  I want to return to my
>> farmhouse in Normandy heart-whole.' ~~ /Justine/ 1.12 (21/24)
> 
> I see that the first racial designation of "Copt" or "Jew" in /Justine/
> comes in a hybrid reference, "Judeo-Copt."  That is an unusual blend, I
> believe.  What does that mean?  Why would Pombal not merely invoke
> "Judeo-Christian"?
> 
> The second reference to "Copt" comes with the introduction of "'Prince'
> Nessim": "To begin with he was a Copt, not a Moslem" (/Justine/ 1.16
> [27/29]).  That qualified designation requires a bit of cognition to
> puzzle out.  The reader is asked to imagine a character who might be
> mistaken for /x/, but in reality is /y/.
> 
> (The earliest rendering reads, "He was a Copt, to begin with[. . . .],
> omitting the glance back at "Moslem" identity.)
> 
> Given these two examples, I would say that in these early pages of
> /Justine/ that the Copt appears to be imagined as a hinge group, set in
> the middle of other peoples--"Jew-Copt-Moslem."
> 
> Charles



From ilyas.khan at crosby.com  Fri Jul 30 16:43:19 2010
From: ilyas.khan at crosby.com (Ilyas)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 00:43:19 +0100
Subject: [ilds] eclectic Gnostic
In-Reply-To: <D67FC31749DC4493A0C344E2EBD8B85C@MumandDad>
Message-ID: <C8792227.29ABD%ilyas.khan@crosby.com>

?beloved? Kabbalah ? Really David ? I can see that LD would be deeply
interested in K as a subject and even beyond that as a mystery. But
?beloved? suggests to me, at least, that he held passionate convictions.
Would you please clarify. Thank you.




On 31/07/2010 00:12, "Denise Tart & David Green" <dtart at bigpond.net.au>
wrote:

> Let us all be mindful that LD was an eclectic gnostic and the Kabbalah fuelled
> his transcendental quest to peer into his heraldic consciousness... For those
> who wish to merge with Lawrence's mindscape I think it fair to say that for
> him the kabbalah is the central  heart of judaism with all other aspects of
> jewry being secondary and epiphenomenal. Therefore in depth discussions about
> antisemitism vs antizionism are best supplanted by an LD orientated
> exploration of his beloved kabbalah!
>  
> David
> 
>  
>  
> 16 William Street
> Marrickville NSW  2204
> +61 2 9564 6165
> 0412 707 625
> dtart at bigpond.net.au
> www.denisetart.com.au <http://www.denisetart.com.au>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

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From lalexsternthal at gmail.com  Fri Jul 30 17:51:17 2010
From: lalexsternthal at gmail.com (Lee Sternthal)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:51:17 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism
In-Reply-To: <E1BD360F-81A2-4DF5-89C5-5442408D9F1F@earthlink.net>
References: <A775F4E6-1458-4FA4-82D3-685460CCD6F2@earthlink.net>
	<809061470.976014.1280513824018.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<AANLkTi=L1_q-u53hQs-N0LNZp7hzX0A1vqyT01QXGdrj@mail.gmail.com>
	<E1BD360F-81A2-4DF5-89C5-5442408D9F1F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=cM7sQQ7_2znMK2ZmDsVR4a8E5Y3W-bqa-EKsm@mail.gmail.com>

see if i understand correctly: greek hatred of turks caused the greeks to
not show up to the holocaust museum in Houson for a talk/seminar about their
hometown because it was felt in the community that, in the past, turks
favored the jews...

and this was about a generation later?

while attendance of a lecture about your hometown in a Holocaust museum
doesn't really prove anything, if Timko is correct as to the motivation of
why nobody showed up, that is some serious "cultural embedding."

btw, bruce, you didn't rest your case.


On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Bruce Redwine
<bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>wrote:

> Lee,
>
> I think Merrianne Timko has provided a very interesting and informative
> anecdote about the Jewish situation in Thessaloniki.  I hope you agree with
> that.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> On Jul 30, 2010, at 12:06 PM, Lee Sternthal wrote:
>
> Veryy good, Bruce, because I don't think anyone actually knew what your
> "case" was.
>
> L
>
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 11:17 AM, <timlot at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> A brief comment on the subject -
>>
>> Thessaloniki (old Salonika) in northern Greece had a thriving Jewish
>> population prior to WWII.  Many of my Greek friends who grew up there in the
>> 1940's would never discuss the deportation of their neighbors in great
>> detail, although their families "inherited" chandeliers, furniture, etc.
>> from those neighbors who never returned.  At least in Thessaloniki, there
>> was a feeling that the Ottoman Turks had shown preferential treatment to the
>> Jews during the Ottoman occupation.  Thessaloniki had a strong history of
>> harboring the Jews following the Spanish inquisition.  I know this feeling
>> was also shared by friends from Kavalla in northern Greece, and by other
>> Greek friends of mine from several areas in Greece.
>>
>> A couple of years ago, a Greek organization co-sponsored a lecture on
>> Thessaloniki during WWII at the Holocaust Museum in Houston (where I live).
>> Although many members of the Greek community in Houston emigrated from
>> Thessaloniki, especially during the military junta of the late 60's/early
>> 70's, only about 7 members of the entire Greek community showed up.
>>
>> Not blatant anti-Semitism - but, perhaps cultural embedding.
>>
>> Merrianne Timko
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>


-- 
-----------------------------------------------
"...but why is the rum gone?!?!"
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From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu  Fri Jul 30 19:56:06 2010
From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 22:56:06 -0400
Subject: [ilds] "Copt" or "Coptic"
Message-ID: <4C5390C6.1090704@utc.edu>

In an effort to coax the discussion back to the writings and life of 
Lawrence Durrell, I offer the following census:

        2 references to "Copt" or "Coptic" occur within /Justine/. 

        12 references to "Copt" or "Coptic" occur within /Balthazar/.

Based on that accounting--struck off in haste this Friday evening--I 
would say that the "Coptic plot" assumed a greater significance for 
Durrell as he began to draft what he called "Justine II."

C&c.

-- 
********************************************
Charles L. Sligh
Assistant Professor
Department of English
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
charles-sligh at utc.edu
********************************************


From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu  Fri Jul 30 20:14:40 2010
From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 23:14:40 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism [sic]
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=cM7sQQ7_2znMK2ZmDsVR4a8E5Y3W-bqa-EKsm@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A775F4E6-1458-4FA4-82D3-685460CCD6F2@earthlink.net>	<809061470.976014.1280513824018.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<AANLkTi=L1_q-u53hQs-N0LNZp7hzX0A1vqyT01QXGdrj@mail.gmail.com>	<E1BD360F-81A2-4DF5-89C5-5442408D9F1F@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTi=cM7sQQ7_2znMK2ZmDsVR4a8E5Y3W-bqa-EKsm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C539520.2010108@utc.edu>

I suggest that

        1) we start spelling it "anti-Semitism";

        2) we keep our discussion grounded in Durrell's writings,
        letters, and life.


Charles

-- 
********************************************
Charles L. Sligh
Assistant Professor
Department of English
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
charles-sligh at utc.edu
********************************************


From rpinecorfu at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 31 00:59:04 2010
From: rpinecorfu at yahoo.com (Richard Pine)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 00:59:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism [sic]
In-Reply-To: <4C539520.2010108@utc.edu>
References: <A775F4E6-1458-4FA4-82D3-685460CCD6F2@earthlink.net>
	<809061470.976014.1280513824018.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<AANLkTi=L1_q-u53hQs-N0LNZp7hzX0A1vqyT01QXGdrj@mail.gmail.com>
	<E1BD360F-81A2-4DF5-89C5-5442408D9F1F@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTi=cM7sQQ7_2znMK2ZmDsVR4a8E5Y3W-bqa-EKsm@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C539520.2010108@utc.edu>
Message-ID: <770174.52780.qm@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I agree. Go back to the books:

Leila to Mountolive: 'We are not Moslems, but Christians, like yourself'.'
Hosnani pere to Mountolive: 'There were never any differences between us and the 
Moslems in Egypt before they [the British] came. The British have taught the 
Moslems to hate the Copts and to discriminate against them.' 




----- Original Message ----
From: Charles Sligh <Charles-Sligh at utc.edu>
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Sent: Sat, July 31, 2010 6:14:40 AM
Subject: Re: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism [sic]

I suggest that

? ? ? ? 1) we start spelling it "anti-Semitism";

? ? ? ? 2) we keep our discussion grounded in Durrell's writings,
? ? ? ? letters, and life.


Charles

-- 
********************************************
Charles L. Sligh
Assistant Professor
Department of English
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
charles-sligh at utc.edu
********************************************

_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



      


From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Sat Jul 31 04:42:03 2010
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 13:42:03 +0200
Subject: [ilds] eclectic Gnostic
In-Reply-To: <C8792227.29ABD%ilyas.khan@crosby.com>
References: <C8792227.29ABD%ilyas.khan@crosby.com>
Message-ID: <4C540C0B.70400@interdesign.fr>

For those who have been to Alexandria, the Roman 
Ruins are a perfect setting to spark off LD's 
imagination...
Marc

Le 31/07/10 01:43, Ilyas a ?crit :
> ?beloved? Kabbalah ? Really David ? I can see that LD would be deeply
> interested in K as a subject and even beyond that as a mystery. But
> ?beloved? suggests to me, at least, that he held passionate convictions.
> Would you please clarify. Thank you.
>
>
>
>
> On 31/07/2010 00:12, "Denise Tart & David Green" <dtart at bigpond.net.au>
> wrote:
>
>     Let us all be mindful that LD was an eclectic gnostic and the
>     Kabbalah fuelled his transcendental quest to peer into his heraldic
>     consciousness... For those who wish to merge with Lawrence's
>     mindscape I think it fair to say that for him the kabbalah is the
>     central heart of judaism with all other aspects of jewry being
>     secondary and epiphenomenal. Therefore in depth discussions about
>     antisemitism vs antizionism are best supplanted by an LD orientated
>     exploration of his beloved kabbalah!
>
>     David
>
>
>
>     16 William Street
>     Marrickville NSW 2204
>     +61 2 9564 6165
>     0412 707 625
>     dtart at bigpond.net.au
>     www.denisetart.com.au <http://www.denisetart.com.au>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     _______________________________________________
>     ILDS mailing list
>     ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>     https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From timlot at comcast.net  Sat Jul 31 06:08:48 2010
From: timlot at comcast.net (Merrianne Timko)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 08:08:48 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Stereotyping
References: <4C5315FB0200004D0005AF7C@mail.ucf.edu>
Message-ID: <1D9732EBCDE248A68D2FA5C8B1023E95@D3NY0YF1>

My comment was not made to offend - or to stereotype.  I was just relating 
the experiences of friends who had lived in Greece during WWII, had 
witnessed bombs being dropped near Syntagma Square, etc. - not too long 
after Durrell had lived in Greece.  Durrell spoke fluent Greek, and with 
such ability would have been able to gain greater insight into the mechanics 
of Greek culture versus someone who did not.

For those who have a copy of Durrell's Caesar's Vast Ghost: Aspects of 
Provence (the Arcade Publishing, 1990 edition), turn to pages 164-165, and 
read some rather provocative language regarding Spanish Muslims, 
Christianity, and Judaism in the context of medieval courtly love.  In the 
work, Durrell also makes some interesting comments regarding Judaism and 
Chrisitianity in the Mediterranean in connection with Roman civilization. 
Provence, where Durrell lived while writing I believe three of the AQ 
novels, has a long Judaic history.

Merrianne


>> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Jul 31 08:22:45 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 08:22:45 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism [sic]
In-Reply-To: <770174.52780.qm@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <A775F4E6-1458-4FA4-82D3-685460CCD6F2@earthlink.net>
	<809061470.976014.1280513824018.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<AANLkTi=L1_q-u53hQs-N0LNZp7hzX0A1vqyT01QXGdrj@mail.gmail.com>
	<E1BD360F-81A2-4DF5-89C5-5442408D9F1F@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTi=cM7sQQ7_2znMK2ZmDsVR4a8E5Y3W-bqa-EKsm@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C539520.2010108@utc.edu>
	<770174.52780.qm@web65820.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <41A65DDB-1EF3-4B80-8FC7-6F798A923BD8@earthlink.net>

Interesting.  If true, why would the British do that?  To create dissension within a colonial population and make it easier to control?  Did the Brits do similar things in other colonies or protectorates?

BR


 
On Jul 31, 2010, at 12:59 AM, Richard Pine wrote:

> I agree. Go back to the books:
> 
> Leila to Mountolive: 'We are not Moslems, but Christians, like yourself'.'
> Hosnani pere to Mountolive: 'There were never any differences between us and the 
> Moslems in Egypt before they [the British] came. The British have taught the 
> Moslems to hate the Copts and to discriminate against them.' 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Charles Sligh <Charles-Sligh at utc.edu>
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Sent: Sat, July 31, 2010 6:14:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism [sic]
> 
> I suggest that
> 
>         1) we start spelling it "anti-Semitism";
> 
>         2) we keep our discussion grounded in Durrell's writings,
>         letters, and life.
> 
> 
> Charles
> 
> 


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Jul 31 08:04:03 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 08:04:03 -0700
Subject: [ilds] "Copt" or "Coptic"
In-Reply-To: <4C5390C6.1090704@utc.edu>
References: <4C5390C6.1090704@utc.edu>
Message-ID: <9DB7C659-A9A2-4D7E-911E-4B898F71192F@earthlink.net>

Exactly.  I don't think Durrell had a "Coptic plot" in mind when writing Justine I.  What he had, instead, was a "Cabal," which Scobie called a "dangerous gang," involved in some kind of political intrigue, possibly kidnapping "the King" (as absurd as that sounds).   I think that's as far as he developed the idea and didn't need to go any further since he was approaching the end of his novel.  According to Haag, Claude Vincendon sets the ball in motion for Justine II, and she is the origin of Coptic plan to aid Israel.


Bruce



On Jul 30, 2010, at 7:56 PM, Charles Sligh wrote:

> In an effort to coax the discussion back to the writings and life of 
> Lawrence Durrell, I offer the following census:
> 
>        2 references to "Copt" or "Coptic" occur within /Justine/. 
> 
>        12 references to "Copt" or "Coptic" occur within /Balthazar/.
> 
> Based on that accounting--struck off in haste this Friday evening--I 
> would say that the "Coptic plot" assumed a greater significance for 
> Durrell as he began to draft what he called "Justine II."
> 
> C&c.
> 
> -- 
> ********************************************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> charles-sligh at utc.edu
> ********************************************
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Jul 31 08:05:58 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 08:05:58 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Anti-Semiticism [sic]
In-Reply-To: <4C539520.2010108@utc.edu>
References: <A775F4E6-1458-4FA4-82D3-685460CCD6F2@earthlink.net>	<809061470.976014.1280513824018.JavaMail.root@sz0146a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>	<AANLkTi=L1_q-u53hQs-N0LNZp7hzX0A1vqyT01QXGdrj@mail.gmail.com>	<E1BD360F-81A2-4DF5-89C5-5442408D9F1F@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTi=cM7sQQ7_2znMK2ZmDsVR4a8E5Y3W-bqa-EKsm@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C539520.2010108@utc.edu>
Message-ID: <BA219157-3921-46DA-AB4C-B1D555E89A62@earthlink.net>

Yes.  Correction noted.


BR



On Jul 30, 2010, at 8:14 PM, Charles Sligh wrote:

> I suggest that
> 
>        1) we start spelling it "anti-Semitism";
> 
>        2) we keep our discussion grounded in Durrell's writings,
>        letters, and life.
> 
> 
> Charles
> 
> -- 
> ********************************************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> charles-sligh at utc.edu
> ********************************************
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Jul 31 16:06:06 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 16:06:06 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Courtly Love
In-Reply-To: <1D9732EBCDE248A68D2FA5C8B1023E95@D3NY0YF1>
References: <4C5315FB0200004D0005AF7C@mail.ucf.edu>
	<1D9732EBCDE248A68D2FA5C8B1023E95@D3NY0YF1>
Message-ID: <1AF53CF4-2B26-4E17-91B2-91F33D23F259@earthlink.net>

Provocative in the sense of finely written ? but not new, not original.  Durrell could have also mentioned The Song of Songs for similar expressions of "the mixture of sexual ecstasy and transcendent evocation" (CVG 164).  I rather like LD on this topic:  he's cautious about the historicity of courtly love but openly prefers other "evidence" and then blends in his own views.  My only concern about this passage ? is this in fact Lawrence Durrell speaking or is he, as previously discussed, "mixing?"


BR



On Jul 31, 2010, at 6:08 AM, Merrianne Timko wrote:

> For those who have a copy of Durrell's Caesar's Vast Ghost: Aspects of 
> Provence (the Arcade Publishing, 1990 edition), turn to pages 164-165, and 
> read some rather provocative language regarding Spanish Muslims, 
> Christianity, and Judaism in the context of medieval courtly love.  In the 
> work, Durrell also makes some interesting comments regarding Judaism and 
> Chrisitianity in the Mediterranean in connection with Roman civilization. 
> Provence, where Durrell lived while writing I believe three of the AQ 
> novels, has a long Judaic history.
> 
> Merrianne
> 

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From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Sun Aug  1 23:49:50 2010
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 16:49:50 +1000
Subject: [ilds] beloved Kabbalah!
Message-ID: <5C2EDFF97113494FB64C00C314CF96A6@MumandDad>

Dear Illyas,

yes, OK, perhaps beloved is going too far, but let us recall Durrell's deep interest in Eastern Philosophy and also other 'ways of living' Philosophies. 

MHaag provides good evidence for LD's high affinity for Kabbalism (cabbalism....)

The following is from his book Alexandria: City of Memory which I hope he wont mind being quoted on this forum

"Carlo Suares became one of the models for Balthazar in The Quartet.

Durrell's notion of a cabalistic group of Mediterranean adepts came  
from Carlo Suares whose interests during the 1930s had expanded beyond  
Krishnamurti and into the world of Jewish mysticism which just then  
was undergoing a revival. In particular Suares had been delving into  
the Sepher Yetsirah, a third-century account of the means by which God  
created the universe. The Psalmist wrote, 'By the word of the Lord  
were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his  
mouth', and so the Sepher Yetsirah claims that the divine utterance  
included all the letters of the Hebrew alphabet which in their various  
combinations make up the holy language, the language of creation. To  
each letter is assigned a number, which taken together were the  
instruments by which God created the cosmos in all its infinite  
variety. For the cabalist, this system of linguistical and numerical  
manipulation would reveal to him the real meaning, the true  
revelation, contained in cypher form within the Book of Genesis and  
other holy texts, but it was also seen as a means of revealing the  
structure of universal energy. To Suares the release of this energy  
involved a transcending exaltation of the seven deadly sins, whose  
real significance, he believed, could be traced back to Gnostic  
origins; and to achieve full realisation of oneself, said Suares, it  
was necessary to become aware of the energies of these 'sins' and  
their true values so as to be able to integrate them into oneself. ...


Suares and his mystical Hebrew alphabet gave Durrell the idea in  
Justine for Balthazar's cabalistic group with its exchanges of  
Hermetic philosophy written in Greek in boustrophedon form. But though  
there are rumours that Suares was working for French intelligence, and  
while at the heart of the medieval cabala was the belief that the  
spiritual dislocation of the Jews would be healed when they returned  
to Zion, there is otherwise no indication that his get-togethers at  
Saba Pasha were a screen for Zionist activities. That was left to  
Durrell's imagination when after completing Justine he decided to  
extend his Book of the Dead into a political thriller.

And....

And in April 1945, after his adventures with Suares and his group,  
Durrell wrote this letter to the dancer Diana Gould, the future wife  
of Yehudi Menuhin:

Myself I have been drafting notes for the book of the dead which is to  
be about (a) incest (b) Alexandria (c) The Hermetics. I have been  
examining the doctrine of the modern cabbalists and have evolved from  
it a philosophy of self-indulgence very Alexandrian in its refinement.  
My Grand Inquisitor says: 'What I have to offer the world is not a  
morality but an aesthetic. Where all religions tend to prohibit,  
exclude or sort out human behaviour, my aesthetic includes: Our object  
is the same: to remove envy, greed and other vices from the human  
nature. I say indulge them but refine yourself by them and thus refine  
them too. Take experience for a laboratory. No sin can remain sin if  
it is informed by this principle which I call the heraldic principle.  
Where you wish to conquer indulge and refine, never prohibit.  
Prohibition by the law of opposite increases demand'."

It is the norm on this list to talk about what he wrote rather than what he read, or thought or indeed to discuss who he was. I am personally very interested in Durrell's emerging self and the transformative processes of his life. His literature maybe save territory for scholarship but the man offers us a more challenging world, perhaps..

David
















Denise Tart
designing ceremonies
Civil Celebrant - A8807
16 William Street
Marrickville NSW  2204
+61 2 9564 6165
0412 707 625
dtart at bigpond.net.au
www.denisetart.com.au
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