[ilds] Urdu, Message 3

Vivienne DuBourdieu vidubo at gmail.com
Mon Jun 28 01:50:06 PDT 2010


Dear Richard,

That puts a different slant on things. Since you know this at first hand,
would it be possible for you to elaborate a little more?

As I'm new to the ILDS Digest, I've probably got a lot to catch up on.

Vivienne

On 27 June 2010 20:00, <ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>   1. Hindustani (Richard Pine)
>   2. "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling." (Charles Sligh)
>   3. Fw: Hindustani (Richard Pine)
>   4. Re: "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>      (Bruce Redwine)
>   5. Re: "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>      (Charles Sligh)
>   6. Re: "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>      (Bruce Redwine)
>   7. Re: "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>      (Charles Sligh)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 05:17:55 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Richard Pine <rpinecorfu at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [ilds] Hindustani
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <365030.81624.qm at web65813.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Regarding Durrell's childhood familiarity with Hindi, cf Ashis Nandy, The
> Intimate Enemy pp. 65-6 re Kipling: 'He was not merely born in India, he was
> brought up in India by Indian servants in an Indian environment. He thought,
> felt and dreamed in Hindustani'.
> RP
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:00:57 -0400
> From: Charles Sligh <Charles-Sligh at utc.edu>
> Subject: [ilds] "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <4C274B89.20406 at utc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Richard Pine wrote:
>
> >         Regarding Durrell's childhood familiarity with Hindi, cf Ashis
> Nandy, The Intimate Enemy pp. 65-6 re Kipling: 'He was not merely born in
> India, he was brought up in India by Indian servants in an Indian
> environment. He thought, felt and dreamed in Hindustani'.
> >
>
> In order to make a bold point, we might even say that, later in life,
> Durrell recalled /two/ languages from his childhood: Hindustani and
> Kipling.
>
> I think it is obvious that Durrell retained a lifelong fluency in
> Kipling. Cf. the following remark by Durrell in 1971.
>
> >         Goulianos: So you think it would be better if the British were
> >         still in India?
> >         Durrell: I don't care fundamentally. The British have
> >         obviously lost their drive, and these things go in rhythms.
> >         I'm not pining for the Raj at all. I'm just saying that my
> >         childhood was influenced there. And for an account of that
> >         sort of life, Kipling.
> >
> >         "The Fasting of the Heart," Lawrence Durrell" Conversations
> >         (123-124)
>
>
> I will re-post below Kipling's major autobiographical and fictional
> statements on his Anglo-Indian childhood and "the vernacular idiom that
> one thought and dreamed in."
>
> Meanwhile, everyone should read more Kipling.
>
> C&c.
>
>            Kipling, /Something of Myself/, "Chapter 1 -- A Very Young
>            Person"
>
> >             My first impression is of daybreak, light and colour and
> >             golden and purple fruits at the level of my shoulder. This
> >             would be the memory of early morning walks to the Bombay
> >             fruit
> >             market with my /ayah/ and later with my sister in her
> >             perambulator, and of our returns with our purchases piled
> >             high
> >             on the bows of it. Our /ayah/ was a Portuguese Roman Catholic
> >             who would pray?I beside her?at a wayside Cross. Meeta, my
> >             Hindu bearer, would sometimes go into little Hindu temples
> >             where, being below the age of caste, I held his hand and
> >             looked at the dimly-seen, friendly Gods[. . . .]
> >             In the afternoon heats before we took our sleep, she or Meeta
> >             would tell us stories and Indian nursery songs all
> >             unforgotten, and we were sent into the dining-room after we
> >             had been dressed, with the caution ?Speak English now to Papa
> >             and Mamma.? So one spoke ?English,? haltingly translated out
> >             of the vernacular idiom that one thought and dreamed in.
>
>            Kipling, "Baa Baa, Black Sheep"
>
> >             The Swedish boatswain consoled him, and he modified his
> >             opinions as the voyage went on. There was so much to see and
> >             to handle and ask questions about that Punch nearly forgot
> >             the
> >             /ayah/ and Meeta and the /hamal/, and with difficulty
> >             remembered a few words of the Hindustani once his
> >             second-speech.
>
>            Kipling, "The Potted Princess"
>
> >             NOW this is the true tale that was told to Punch and Judy,
> >             his
> >             sister, by their nurse, in the city of Bombay, ten thousand
> >             miles from here. They were playing in the veranda, waiting
> >             for
> >             their mother to come back from her evening drive. The big
> >             pink
> >             crane, who generally lived by himself at the bottom of the
> >             garden because he hated horses and carriages, was with them
> >             too, and the nurse, who was called the ayah, was making him
> >             dance by throwing pieces of mud at him. Pink cranes dance
> >             very
> >             prettily until they grow angry. Then they peck.
> >
> >             This pink crane lost his temper, opened his wings, and
> >             clattered his beak, and the ayah had to sing a song which
> >             never fails to quiet all the cranes in Bombay. It is a very
> >             old song, and it says:
> >
> >             Buggle baita nuddee kinara,
> >             Toom-toom niushia kaye,
> >             Nuddee kinara kanta lugga
> >             Tullaka-tullaka ju jaye.
> >
> >             That means: A crane sat by the river-bank, eating fish
> >             /toom-toom/, and a thorn in the riverbank pricked him, and
> >             his
> >             life went away /tullakatullaka/?drop by drop. The /ayah/ and
> >             Punch and Judy always talked Hindustani because they
> >             understood it better than English.
>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ********************************************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> charles-sligh at utc.edu
> ********************************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 06:36:19 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Richard Pine <rpinecorfu at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [ilds] Fw: Hindustani
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <557641.49281.qm at web65816.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I should have added, that, in conversation with myself, recalling his
> childhood, LD said 'We all spoke Urdu'. Does this complicate matters
> further?
> RP
>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message ----
> From: Richard Pine <rpinecorfu at yahoo.com>
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Sent: Sun, June 27, 2010 3:17:55 PM
> Subject: Hindustani
>
> Regarding Durrell's childhood familiarity with Hindi, cf Ashis Nandy, The
> Intimate Enemy pp. 65-6 re Kipling: 'He was not merely born in India, he was
> brought up in India by Indian servants in an Indian environment. He thought,
> felt and dreamed in Hindustani'.
> RP
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:33:03 -0700
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
> To: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Message-ID: <65B19039-4638-496A-9351-90EEF4D29E4B at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Pine also says, "I should have added, that, in conversation with myself,
> recalling his childhood, LD said 'We all spoke Urdu'. Does this complicate
> matters further?"
>
> Young Durrell a speaker of Urdu and Hindi?  Possible but likely?  What's
> the evidence for this in Durrell's later work and "stories" of his past?  A
> few scattered words of Urdu or Hindi is not evidence for speaking either
> language.  I know a few words and phrases of Spanish, learned in part from
> my mother who was a native speaker of Spanish, but I never spoke the
> language.  I never learned Spanish.
>
> This is nitpicking?  I don't think so.  LGD's greatest gift was his use of
> metaphor.  Read "From the Elephant's Back" ? it's packed with metaphors
> which Durrell uses to describe his method and vision/philosophy.  He hauls
> in Einstein's Relativity again and now adds Quantum Mechanics.  Does he know
> the physics and mathematics behinds these terms?  Absolutely not.  These are
> just metaphors he likes to play with.  Now, his childhood in India became a
> metaphor for something lost, unattainable, and, if you will, "devoutely to
> be wished":  the dream of Tibet.  That idea is very close to the "blue
> flower" of German Romanticism, Novalis's "die blaue Blume."  I'm suggesting
> that Durrell's dream of India was just that, largely a dream.  It had some
> basis in fact, but he later used it as a metaphor which he embellished,
> elaborated, and turned into a dream.  And that's the way I take his
> statements about speaking Hindi and Urdu.  They're not statements of fact ?
> they're metaphors.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 6:00 AM, Charles Sligh wrote:
>
> > Richard Pine wrote:
> >
> >>        Regarding Durrell's childhood familiarity with Hindi, cf Ashis
> Nandy, The Intimate Enemy pp. 65-6 re Kipling: 'He was not merely born in
> India, he was brought up in India by Indian servants in an Indian
> environment. He thought, felt and dreamed in Hindustani'.
> >>
> >
> > In order to make a bold point, we might even say that, later in life,
> > Durrell recalled /two/ languages from his childhood: Hindustani and
> Kipling.
> >
> > I think it is obvious that Durrell retained a lifelong fluency in
> > Kipling. Cf. the following remark by Durrell in 1971.
> >
> >>        Goulianos: So you think it would be better if the British were
> >>        still in India?
> >>        Durrell: I don't care fundamentally. The British have
> >>        obviously lost their drive, and these things go in rhythms.
> >>        I'm not pining for the Raj at all. I'm just saying that my
> >>        childhood was influenced there. And for an account of that
> >>        sort of life, Kipling.
> >>
> >>        "The Fasting of the Heart," Lawrence Durrell" Conversations
> >>        (123-124)
> >
> >
> > I will re-post below Kipling's major autobiographical and fictional
> > statements on his Anglo-Indian childhood and "the vernacular idiom that
> > one thought and dreamed in."
> >
> > Meanwhile, everyone should read more Kipling.
> >
> > C&c.
> >
> >            Kipling, /Something of Myself/, "Chapter 1 -- A Very Young
> >            Person"
> >
> >>            My first impression is of daybreak, light and colour and
> >>            golden and purple fruits at the level of my shoulder. This
> >>            would be the memory of early morning walks to the Bombay
> >>            fruit
> >>            market with my /ayah/ and later with my sister in her
> >>            perambulator, and of our returns with our purchases piled
> >>            high
> >>            on the bows of it. Our /ayah/ was a Portuguese Roman Catholic
> >>            who would pray?I beside her?at a wayside Cross. Meeta, my
> >>            Hindu bearer, would sometimes go into little Hindu temples
> >>            where, being below the age of caste, I held his hand and
> >>            looked at the dimly-seen, friendly Gods[. . . .]
> >>            In the afternoon heats before we took our sleep, she or Meeta
> >>            would tell us stories and Indian nursery songs all
> >>            unforgotten, and we were sent into the dining-room after we
> >>            had been dressed, with the caution ?Speak English now to Papa
> >>            and Mamma.? So one spoke ?English,? haltingly translated out
> >>            of the vernacular idiom that one thought and dreamed in.
> >
> >            Kipling, "Baa Baa, Black Sheep"
> >
> >>            The Swedish boatswain consoled him, and he modified his
> >>            opinions as the voyage went on. There was so much to see and
> >>            to handle and ask questions about that Punch nearly forgot
> >>            the
> >>            /ayah/ and Meeta and the /hamal/, and with difficulty
> >>            remembered a few words of the Hindustani once his
> >>            second-speech.
> >
> >            Kipling, "The Potted Princess"
> >
> >>            NOW this is the true tale that was told to Punch and Judy,
> >>            his
> >>            sister, by their nurse, in the city of Bombay, ten thousand
> >>            miles from here. They were playing in the veranda, waiting
> >>            for
> >>            their mother to come back from her evening drive. The big
> >>            pink
> >>            crane, who generally lived by himself at the bottom of the
> >>            garden because he hated horses and carriages, was with them
> >>            too, and the nurse, who was called the ayah, was making him
> >>            dance by throwing pieces of mud at him. Pink cranes dance
> >>            very
> >>            prettily until they grow angry. Then they peck.
> >>
> >>            This pink crane lost his temper, opened his wings, and
> >>            clattered his beak, and the ayah had to sing a song which
> >>            never fails to quiet all the cranes in Bombay. It is a very
> >>            old song, and it says:
> >>
> >>            Buggle baita nuddee kinara,
> >>            Toom-toom niushia kaye,
> >>            Nuddee kinara kanta lugga
> >>            Tullaka-tullaka ju jaye.
> >>
> >>            That means: A crane sat by the river-bank, eating fish
> >>            /toom-toom/, and a thorn in the riverbank pricked him, and
> >>            his
> >>            life went away /tullakatullaka/?drop by drop. The /ayah/ and
> >>            Punch and Judy always talked Hindustani because they
> >>            understood it better than English.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > ********************************************
> > Charles L. Sligh
> > Assistant Professor
> > Department of English
> > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> > charles-sligh at utc.edu
> > ********************************************
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ILDS mailing list
> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 12:37:25 -0400
> From: Charles Sligh <Charles-Sligh at utc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Message-ID: <4C277E45.2030608 at utc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Bruce Redwine wrote:
> >
> > And that's the way I take his statements about speaking Hindi and
> > Urdu.  They're not statements of fact ? they're metaphors.
> >
> >
> Yes, /now/ you are getting a sense of the thing.
>
> C&c.
>
> --
> ********************************************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> charles-sligh at utc.edu
> ********************************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 10:02:35 -0700
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
> To: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Message-ID: <1A94C8CF-D316-49C4-B918-387C9DF60A56 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> Charles,
>
> The real question is, to what extent did Durrell know what he was doing?
>  My opinion:  sometimes he lied knowingly, but he did that so often that
> lies became Truth, for him anyway.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Charles Sligh wrote:
>
> > Bruce Redwine wrote:
> >>
> >> And that's the way I take his statements about speaking Hindi and
> >> Urdu.  They're not statements of fact ? they're metaphors.
> >>
> >>
> > Yes, /now/ you are getting a sense of the thing.
> >
> > C&c.
> >
> > --
> > ********************************************
> > Charles L. Sligh
> > Assistant Professor
> > Department of English
> > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> > charles-sligh at utc.edu
> > ********************************************
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ILDS mailing list
> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:27:30 -0400
> From: Charles Sligh <Charles-Sligh at utc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <4C278A02.9040102 at utc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> I will give you the gift of a text.
>
> >         But one can see the astute attendant Brahmans from here,
> >         skilled in directing the heavenly intuitions of both men and
> >         beasts to their own profit. The praises of kings as rehearsed
> >         on these documents are monuments of hyperbole[. . . .]  All is
> >         done, however, with such an air of conviction and pious
> >         purpose that we must use Dr. Johnson's kindly discrimination
> >         and say they are not inexcusable, but consecrated liars.
>
>                                Lockwood Kipling, /Beast and man in
>                                India: a popular sketch of Indian
>                                animals in their relations with the
>                                people/ (1904)
>
> --
> ********************************************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> charles-sligh at utc.edu
> ********************************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
> End of ILDS Digest, Vol 39, Issue 16
> ************************************
>



-- 
Vivienne DuBourdieu, MCIJ
vidubo at gmail.com
T: 01323 873046 or 07932 714063
http://strollingplayer.com
http://travlark.com
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