From vidubo at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 01:50:06 2010
From: vidubo at gmail.com (Vivienne DuBourdieu)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 09:50:06 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Urdu, Message 3
Message-ID: <AANLkTilZMqRlCowwFms3rEVYH0mdeKihlSLAVneNCTaL@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Richard,

That puts a different slant on things. Since you know this at first hand,
would it be possible for you to elaborate a little more?

As I'm new to the ILDS Digest, I've probably got a lot to catch up on.

Vivienne

On 27 June 2010 20:00, <ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Hindustani (Richard Pine)
>   2. "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling." (Charles Sligh)
>   3. Fw: Hindustani (Richard Pine)
>   4. Re: "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>      (Bruce Redwine)
>   5. Re: "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>      (Charles Sligh)
>   6. Re: "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>      (Bruce Redwine)
>   7. Re: "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>      (Charles Sligh)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 05:17:55 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Richard Pine <rpinecorfu at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [ilds] Hindustani
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <365030.81624.qm at web65813.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Regarding Durrell's childhood familiarity with Hindi, cf Ashis Nandy, The
> Intimate Enemy pp. 65-6 re Kipling: 'He was not merely born in India, he was
> brought up in India by Indian servants in an Indian environment. He thought,
> felt and dreamed in Hindustani'.
> RP
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:00:57 -0400
> From: Charles Sligh <Charles-Sligh at utc.edu>
> Subject: [ilds] "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <4C274B89.20406 at utc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Richard Pine wrote:
>
> >         Regarding Durrell's childhood familiarity with Hindi, cf Ashis
> Nandy, The Intimate Enemy pp. 65-6 re Kipling: 'He was not merely born in
> India, he was brought up in India by Indian servants in an Indian
> environment. He thought, felt and dreamed in Hindustani'.
> >
>
> In order to make a bold point, we might even say that, later in life,
> Durrell recalled /two/ languages from his childhood: Hindustani and
> Kipling.
>
> I think it is obvious that Durrell retained a lifelong fluency in
> Kipling. Cf. the following remark by Durrell in 1971.
>
> >         Goulianos: So you think it would be better if the British were
> >         still in India?
> >         Durrell: I don't care fundamentally. The British have
> >         obviously lost their drive, and these things go in rhythms.
> >         I'm not pining for the Raj at all. I'm just saying that my
> >         childhood was influenced there. And for an account of that
> >         sort of life, Kipling.
> >
> >         "The Fasting of the Heart," Lawrence Durrell" Conversations
> >         (123-124)
>
>
> I will re-post below Kipling's major autobiographical and fictional
> statements on his Anglo-Indian childhood and "the vernacular idiom that
> one thought and dreamed in."
>
> Meanwhile, everyone should read more Kipling.
>
> C&c.
>
>            Kipling, /Something of Myself/, "Chapter 1 -- A Very Young
>            Person"
>
> >             My first impression is of daybreak, light and colour and
> >             golden and purple fruits at the level of my shoulder. This
> >             would be the memory of early morning walks to the Bombay
> >             fruit
> >             market with my /ayah/ and later with my sister in her
> >             perambulator, and of our returns with our purchases piled
> >             high
> >             on the bows of it. Our /ayah/ was a Portuguese Roman Catholic
> >             who would pray?I beside her?at a wayside Cross. Meeta, my
> >             Hindu bearer, would sometimes go into little Hindu temples
> >             where, being below the age of caste, I held his hand and
> >             looked at the dimly-seen, friendly Gods[. . . .]
> >             In the afternoon heats before we took our sleep, she or Meeta
> >             would tell us stories and Indian nursery songs all
> >             unforgotten, and we were sent into the dining-room after we
> >             had been dressed, with the caution ?Speak English now to Papa
> >             and Mamma.? So one spoke ?English,? haltingly translated out
> >             of the vernacular idiom that one thought and dreamed in.
>
>            Kipling, "Baa Baa, Black Sheep"
>
> >             The Swedish boatswain consoled him, and he modified his
> >             opinions as the voyage went on. There was so much to see and
> >             to handle and ask questions about that Punch nearly forgot
> >             the
> >             /ayah/ and Meeta and the /hamal/, and with difficulty
> >             remembered a few words of the Hindustani once his
> >             second-speech.
>
>            Kipling, "The Potted Princess"
>
> >             NOW this is the true tale that was told to Punch and Judy,
> >             his
> >             sister, by their nurse, in the city of Bombay, ten thousand
> >             miles from here. They were playing in the veranda, waiting
> >             for
> >             their mother to come back from her evening drive. The big
> >             pink
> >             crane, who generally lived by himself at the bottom of the
> >             garden because he hated horses and carriages, was with them
> >             too, and the nurse, who was called the ayah, was making him
> >             dance by throwing pieces of mud at him. Pink cranes dance
> >             very
> >             prettily until they grow angry. Then they peck.
> >
> >             This pink crane lost his temper, opened his wings, and
> >             clattered his beak, and the ayah had to sing a song which
> >             never fails to quiet all the cranes in Bombay. It is a very
> >             old song, and it says:
> >
> >             Buggle baita nuddee kinara,
> >             Toom-toom niushia kaye,
> >             Nuddee kinara kanta lugga
> >             Tullaka-tullaka ju jaye.
> >
> >             That means: A crane sat by the river-bank, eating fish
> >             /toom-toom/, and a thorn in the riverbank pricked him, and
> >             his
> >             life went away /tullakatullaka/?drop by drop. The /ayah/ and
> >             Punch and Judy always talked Hindustani because they
> >             understood it better than English.
>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ********************************************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> charles-sligh at utc.edu
> ********************************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 06:36:19 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Richard Pine <rpinecorfu at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [ilds] Fw: Hindustani
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <557641.49281.qm at web65816.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I should have added, that, in conversation with myself, recalling his
> childhood, LD said 'We all spoke Urdu'. Does this complicate matters
> further?
> RP
>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message ----
> From: Richard Pine <rpinecorfu at yahoo.com>
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Sent: Sun, June 27, 2010 3:17:55 PM
> Subject: Hindustani
>
> Regarding Durrell's childhood familiarity with Hindi, cf Ashis Nandy, The
> Intimate Enemy pp. 65-6 re Kipling: 'He was not merely born in India, he was
> brought up in India by Indian servants in an Indian environment. He thought,
> felt and dreamed in Hindustani'.
> RP
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:33:03 -0700
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
> To: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Message-ID: <65B19039-4638-496A-9351-90EEF4D29E4B at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Pine also says, "I should have added, that, in conversation with myself,
> recalling his childhood, LD said 'We all spoke Urdu'. Does this complicate
> matters further?"
>
> Young Durrell a speaker of Urdu and Hindi?  Possible but likely?  What's
> the evidence for this in Durrell's later work and "stories" of his past?  A
> few scattered words of Urdu or Hindi is not evidence for speaking either
> language.  I know a few words and phrases of Spanish, learned in part from
> my mother who was a native speaker of Spanish, but I never spoke the
> language.  I never learned Spanish.
>
> This is nitpicking?  I don't think so.  LGD's greatest gift was his use of
> metaphor.  Read "From the Elephant's Back" ? it's packed with metaphors
> which Durrell uses to describe his method and vision/philosophy.  He hauls
> in Einstein's Relativity again and now adds Quantum Mechanics.  Does he know
> the physics and mathematics behinds these terms?  Absolutely not.  These are
> just metaphors he likes to play with.  Now, his childhood in India became a
> metaphor for something lost, unattainable, and, if you will, "devoutely to
> be wished":  the dream of Tibet.  That idea is very close to the "blue
> flower" of German Romanticism, Novalis's "die blaue Blume."  I'm suggesting
> that Durrell's dream of India was just that, largely a dream.  It had some
> basis in fact, but he later used it as a metaphor which he embellished,
> elaborated, and turned into a dream.  And that's the way I take his
> statements about speaking Hindi and Urdu.  They're not statements of fact ?
> they're metaphors.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 6:00 AM, Charles Sligh wrote:
>
> > Richard Pine wrote:
> >
> >>        Regarding Durrell's childhood familiarity with Hindi, cf Ashis
> Nandy, The Intimate Enemy pp. 65-6 re Kipling: 'He was not merely born in
> India, he was brought up in India by Indian servants in an Indian
> environment. He thought, felt and dreamed in Hindustani'.
> >>
> >
> > In order to make a bold point, we might even say that, later in life,
> > Durrell recalled /two/ languages from his childhood: Hindustani and
> Kipling.
> >
> > I think it is obvious that Durrell retained a lifelong fluency in
> > Kipling. Cf. the following remark by Durrell in 1971.
> >
> >>        Goulianos: So you think it would be better if the British were
> >>        still in India?
> >>        Durrell: I don't care fundamentally. The British have
> >>        obviously lost their drive, and these things go in rhythms.
> >>        I'm not pining for the Raj at all. I'm just saying that my
> >>        childhood was influenced there. And for an account of that
> >>        sort of life, Kipling.
> >>
> >>        "The Fasting of the Heart," Lawrence Durrell" Conversations
> >>        (123-124)
> >
> >
> > I will re-post below Kipling's major autobiographical and fictional
> > statements on his Anglo-Indian childhood and "the vernacular idiom that
> > one thought and dreamed in."
> >
> > Meanwhile, everyone should read more Kipling.
> >
> > C&c.
> >
> >            Kipling, /Something of Myself/, "Chapter 1 -- A Very Young
> >            Person"
> >
> >>            My first impression is of daybreak, light and colour and
> >>            golden and purple fruits at the level of my shoulder. This
> >>            would be the memory of early morning walks to the Bombay
> >>            fruit
> >>            market with my /ayah/ and later with my sister in her
> >>            perambulator, and of our returns with our purchases piled
> >>            high
> >>            on the bows of it. Our /ayah/ was a Portuguese Roman Catholic
> >>            who would pray?I beside her?at a wayside Cross. Meeta, my
> >>            Hindu bearer, would sometimes go into little Hindu temples
> >>            where, being below the age of caste, I held his hand and
> >>            looked at the dimly-seen, friendly Gods[. . . .]
> >>            In the afternoon heats before we took our sleep, she or Meeta
> >>            would tell us stories and Indian nursery songs all
> >>            unforgotten, and we were sent into the dining-room after we
> >>            had been dressed, with the caution ?Speak English now to Papa
> >>            and Mamma.? So one spoke ?English,? haltingly translated out
> >>            of the vernacular idiom that one thought and dreamed in.
> >
> >            Kipling, "Baa Baa, Black Sheep"
> >
> >>            The Swedish boatswain consoled him, and he modified his
> >>            opinions as the voyage went on. There was so much to see and
> >>            to handle and ask questions about that Punch nearly forgot
> >>            the
> >>            /ayah/ and Meeta and the /hamal/, and with difficulty
> >>            remembered a few words of the Hindustani once his
> >>            second-speech.
> >
> >            Kipling, "The Potted Princess"
> >
> >>            NOW this is the true tale that was told to Punch and Judy,
> >>            his
> >>            sister, by their nurse, in the city of Bombay, ten thousand
> >>            miles from here. They were playing in the veranda, waiting
> >>            for
> >>            their mother to come back from her evening drive. The big
> >>            pink
> >>            crane, who generally lived by himself at the bottom of the
> >>            garden because he hated horses and carriages, was with them
> >>            too, and the nurse, who was called the ayah, was making him
> >>            dance by throwing pieces of mud at him. Pink cranes dance
> >>            very
> >>            prettily until they grow angry. Then they peck.
> >>
> >>            This pink crane lost his temper, opened his wings, and
> >>            clattered his beak, and the ayah had to sing a song which
> >>            never fails to quiet all the cranes in Bombay. It is a very
> >>            old song, and it says:
> >>
> >>            Buggle baita nuddee kinara,
> >>            Toom-toom niushia kaye,
> >>            Nuddee kinara kanta lugga
> >>            Tullaka-tullaka ju jaye.
> >>
> >>            That means: A crane sat by the river-bank, eating fish
> >>            /toom-toom/, and a thorn in the riverbank pricked him, and
> >>            his
> >>            life went away /tullakatullaka/?drop by drop. The /ayah/ and
> >>            Punch and Judy always talked Hindustani because they
> >>            understood it better than English.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > ********************************************
> > Charles L. Sligh
> > Assistant Professor
> > Department of English
> > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> > charles-sligh at utc.edu
> > ********************************************
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ILDS mailing list
> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100627/81b8e425/attachment-0001.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 12:37:25 -0400
> From: Charles Sligh <Charles-Sligh at utc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Message-ID: <4C277E45.2030608 at utc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Bruce Redwine wrote:
> >
> > And that's the way I take his statements about speaking Hindi and
> > Urdu.  They're not statements of fact ? they're metaphors.
> >
> >
> Yes, /now/ you are getting a sense of the thing.
>
> C&c.
>
> --
> ********************************************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> charles-sligh at utc.edu
> ********************************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 10:02:35 -0700
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
> To: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Message-ID: <1A94C8CF-D316-49C4-B918-387C9DF60A56 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> Charles,
>
> The real question is, to what extent did Durrell know what he was doing?
>  My opinion:  sometimes he lied knowingly, but he did that so often that
> lies became Truth, for him anyway.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Charles Sligh wrote:
>
> > Bruce Redwine wrote:
> >>
> >> And that's the way I take his statements about speaking Hindi and
> >> Urdu.  They're not statements of fact ? they're metaphors.
> >>
> >>
> > Yes, /now/ you are getting a sense of the thing.
> >
> > C&c.
> >
> > --
> > ********************************************
> > Charles L. Sligh
> > Assistant Professor
> > Department of English
> > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> > charles-sligh at utc.edu
> > ********************************************
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ILDS mailing list
> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:27:30 -0400
> From: Charles Sligh <Charles-Sligh at utc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <4C278A02.9040102 at utc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> I will give you the gift of a text.
>
> >         But one can see the astute attendant Brahmans from here,
> >         skilled in directing the heavenly intuitions of both men and
> >         beasts to their own profit. The praises of kings as rehearsed
> >         on these documents are monuments of hyperbole[. . . .]  All is
> >         done, however, with such an air of conviction and pious
> >         purpose that we must use Dr. Johnson's kindly discrimination
> >         and say they are not inexcusable, but consecrated liars.
>
>                                Lockwood Kipling, /Beast and man in
>                                India: a popular sketch of Indian
>                                animals in their relations with the
>                                people/ (1904)
>
> --
> ********************************************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
> charles-sligh at utc.edu
> ********************************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
> End of ILDS Digest, Vol 39, Issue 16
> ************************************
>



-- 
Vivienne DuBourdieu, MCIJ
vidubo at gmail.com
T: 01323 873046 or 07932 714063
http://strollingplayer.com
http://travlark.com
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From rpinecorfu at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 28 03:07:15 2010
From: rpinecorfu at yahoo.com (Richard Pine)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 03:07:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ilds] Urdu, Message 3
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilZMqRlCowwFms3rEVYH0mdeKihlSLAVneNCTaL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilZMqRlCowwFms3rEVYH0mdeKihlSLAVneNCTaL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <652503.65859.qm@web65813.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

All I can do is to reproduce the passage from pp. 45-6 of my book Lawrence Durrell: the Mindscape:
"Burma brushed off on me quite considerably. We lived there under canvas for a time. I used to go for walks in the jungle. The jungle was very much a Kipling jungle in those days. It was available. It was our park, so to speak. And there you saw animals and death and the whole works. I lived The Jungle Book. We all spoke Urdu. We weren't just colonial lumps. None of us had been to England. We were very much more remote than an ordinary Britisher, so to speak."
- and to add from the typescript of 'From The Elephant's Back': 'We spoke the languages of the place'.
RP




________________________________
From: Vivienne DuBourdieu <vidubo at gmail.com>
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 11:50:06 AM
Subject: Re: [ilds] Urdu, Message 3

Dear Richard, 

That puts a different slant on things. Since you know this at first hand, would it be possible for you to elaborate a little more?

As I'm new to the ILDS Digest, I've probably got a lot to catch up on.

Vivienne


On 27 June 2010 20:00, <ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca> wrote:

Send ILDS mailing list submissions to
>? ? ? ?ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>? ? ? ?https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>? ? ? ?ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>? ? ? ?ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>? 1. Hindustani (Richard Pine)
>? 2. "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling." (Charles Sligh)
>? 3. Fw: Hindustani (Richard Pine)
>? 4. Re: "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>? ? ?(Bruce Redwine)
>? 5. Re: "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>? ? ?(Charles Sligh)
>? 6. Re: "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>? ? ?(Bruce Redwine)
>? 7. Re: "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>? ? ?(Charles Sligh)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 05:17:55 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Richard Pine <rpinecorfu at yahoo.com>
>Subject: [ilds] Hindustani
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Message-ID: <365030.81624.qm at web65813.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>Regarding Durrell's childhood familiarity with Hindi, cf Ashis Nandy, The Intimate Enemy pp. 65-6 re Kipling: 'He was not merely born in India, he was brought up in India by Indian servants in an Indian environment. He thought, felt and dreamed in Hindustani'.
>RP
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:00:57 -0400
>From: Charles Sligh <Charles-Sligh at utc.edu>
>Subject: [ilds] "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Message-ID: <4C274B89.20406 at utc.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>Richard Pine wrote:
>
>> ? ? ? ? Regarding Durrell's childhood familiarity with Hindi, cf Ashis Nandy, The Intimate Enemy pp. 65-6 re Kipling: 'He was not merely born in India, he was brought up in India by Indian servants in an Indian environment. He thought, felt and dreamed in Hindustani'.
>>
>
>In order to make a bold point, we might even say that, later in life,
>Durrell recalled /two/ languages from his childhood: Hindustani and Kipling.
>
>I think it is obvious that Durrell retained a lifelong fluency in
>Kipling. Cf. the following remark by Durrell in 1971.
>
>> ? ? ? ? Goulianos: So you think it would be better if the British were
>> ? ? ? ? still in India?
>> ? ? ? ? Durrell: I don't care fundamentally. The British have
>> ? ? ? ? obviously lost their drive, and these things go in rhythms.
>> ? ? ? ? I'm not pining for the Raj at all. I'm just saying that my
>> ? ? ? ? childhood was influenced there. And for an account of that
>> ? ? ? ? sort of life, Kipling.
>>
>> ? ? ? ? "The Fasting of the Heart," Lawrence Durrell" Conversations
>> ? ? ? ? (123-124)
>
>
>I will re-post below Kipling's major autobiographical and fictional
>statements on his Anglo-Indian childhood and "the vernacular idiom that
>one thought and dreamed in."
>
>Meanwhile, everyone should read more Kipling.
>
>C&c.
>
>? ? ? ? ? ?Kipling, /Something of Myself/, "Chapter 1 -- A Very Young
>? ? ? ? ? ?Person"
>
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? My first impression is of daybreak, light and colour and
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? golden and purple fruits at the level of my shoulder. This
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? would be the memory of early morning walks to the Bombay
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? fruit
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? market with my /ayah/ and later with my sister in her
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? perambulator, and of our returns with our purchases piled
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? high
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? on the bows of it. Our /ayah/ was a Portuguese Roman Catholic
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? who would pray?I beside her?at a wayside Cross. Meeta, my
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? Hindu bearer, would sometimes go into little Hindu temples
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? where, being below the age of caste, I held his hand and
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? looked at the dimly-seen, friendly Gods[. . . .]
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? In the afternoon heats before we took our sleep, she or Meeta
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? would tell us stories and Indian nursery songs all
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? unforgotten, and we were sent into the dining-room after we
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? had been dressed, with the caution ?Speak English now to Papa
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? and Mamma.? So one spoke ?English,? haltingly translated out
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? of the vernacular idiom that one thought and dreamed in.
>
>? ? ? ? ? ?Kipling, "Baa Baa, Black Sheep"
>
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? The Swedish boatswain consoled him, and he modified his
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? opinions as the voyage went on. There was so much to see and
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? to handle and ask questions about that Punch nearly forgot
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? the
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? /ayah/ and Meeta and the /hamal/, and with difficulty
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? remembered a few words of the Hindustani once his
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? second-speech.
>
>? ? ? ? ? ?Kipling, "The Potted Princess"
>
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? NOW this is the true tale that was told to Punch and Judy,
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? his
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? sister, by their nurse, in the city of Bombay, ten thousand
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? miles from here. They were playing in the veranda, waiting
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? for
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? their mother to come back from her evening drive. The big
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? pink
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? crane, who generally lived by himself at the bottom of the
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? garden because he hated horses and carriages, was with them
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? too, and the nurse, who was called the ayah, was making him
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? dance by throwing pieces of mud at him. Pink cranes dance
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? very
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? prettily until they grow angry. Then they peck.
>>
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? This pink crane lost his temper, opened his wings, and
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? clattered his beak, and the ayah had to sing a song which
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? never fails to quiet all the cranes in Bombay. It is a very
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? old song, and it says:
>>
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? Buggle baita nuddee kinara,
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? Toom-toom niushia kaye,
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? Nuddee kinara kanta lugga
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? Tullaka-tullaka ju jaye.
>>
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? That means: A crane sat by the river-bank, eating fish
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? /toom-toom/, and a thorn in the riverbank pricked him, and
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? his
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? life went away /tullakatullaka/?drop by drop. The /ayah/ and
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? Punch and Judy always talked Hindustani because they
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? understood it better than English.
>
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>********************************************
>Charles L. Sligh
>Assistant Professor
>Department of English
>University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
>charles-sligh at utc.edu
>********************************************
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 06:36:19 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Richard Pine <rpinecorfu at yahoo.com>
>Subject: [ilds] Fw: Hindustani
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Message-ID: <557641.49281.qm at web65816.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>I should have added, that, in conversation with myself, recalling his childhood, LD said 'We all spoke Urdu'. Does this complicate matters further?
>RP
>
>
>
>----- Forwarded Message ----
>From: Richard Pine <rpinecorfu at yahoo.com>
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Sent: Sun, June 27, 2010 3:17:55 PM
>Subject: Hindustani
>
>Regarding Durrell's childhood familiarity with Hindi, cf Ashis Nandy, The Intimate Enemy pp. 65-6 re Kipling: 'He was not merely born in India, he was brought up in India by Indian servants in an Indian environment. He thought, felt and dreamed in Hindustani'.
>RP
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:33:03 -0700
>From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [ilds] "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>To: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Message-ID: <65B19039-4638-496A-9351-90EEF4D29E4B at earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
>Pine also says, "I should have added, that, in conversation with myself, recalling his childhood, LD said 'We all spoke Urdu'. Does this complicate matters further?"
>
>Young Durrell a speaker of Urdu and Hindi? ?Possible but likely? ?What's the evidence for this in Durrell's later work and "stories" of his past? ?A few scattered words of Urdu or Hindi is not evidence for speaking either language. ?I know a few words and phrases of Spanish, learned in part from my mother who was a native speaker of Spanish, but I never spoke the language. ?I never learned Spanish.
>
>This is nitpicking? ?I don't think so. ?LGD's greatest gift was his use of metaphor. ?Read "From the Elephant's Back" ? it's packed with metaphors which Durrell uses to describe his method and vision/philosophy. ?He hauls in Einstein's Relativity again and now adds Quantum Mechanics. ?Does he know the physics and mathematics behinds these terms? ?Absolutely not. ?These are just metaphors he likes to play with. ?Now, his childhood in India became a metaphor for something lost, unattainable, and, if you will, "devoutely to be wished": ?the dream of Tibet. ?That idea is very close to the "blue flower" of German Romanticism, Novalis's "die blaue Blume." ?I'm suggesting that Durrell's dream of India was just that, largely a dream. ?It had some basis in fact, but he later used it as a metaphor which he embellished, elaborated, and turned into a dream. ?And that's the way I take his statements about speaking Hindi and Urdu. ?They're not
 statements of fact ? they're metaphors.
>
>
>Bruce
>
>
>
>On Jun 27, 2010, at 6:00 AM, Charles Sligh wrote:
>
>> Richard Pine wrote:
>>
>>> ? ? ? ?Regarding Durrell's childhood familiarity with Hindi, cf Ashis Nandy, The Intimate Enemy pp. 65-6 re Kipling: 'He was not merely born in India, he was brought up in India by Indian servants in an Indian environment. He thought, felt and dreamed in Hindustani'.
>>>
>>
>> In order to make a bold point, we might even say that, later in life,
>> Durrell recalled /two/ languages from his childhood: Hindustani and Kipling.
>>
>> I think it is obvious that Durrell retained a lifelong fluency in
>> Kipling. Cf. the following remark by Durrell in 1971.
>>
>>> ? ? ? ?Goulianos: So you think it would be better if the British were
>>> ? ? ? ?still in India?
>>> ? ? ? ?Durrell: I don't care fundamentally. The British have
>>> ? ? ? ?obviously lost their drive, and these things go in rhythms.
>>> ? ? ? ?I'm not pining for the Raj at all. I'm just saying that my
>>> ? ? ? ?childhood was influenced there. And for an account of that
>>> ? ? ? ?sort of life, Kipling.
>>>
>>> ? ? ? ?"The Fasting of the Heart," Lawrence Durrell" Conversations
>>> ? ? ? ?(123-124)
>>
>>
>> I will re-post below Kipling's major autobiographical and fictional
>> statements on his Anglo-Indian childhood and "the vernacular idiom that
>> one thought and dreamed in."
>>
>> Meanwhile, everyone should read more Kipling.
>>
>> C&c.
>>
>> ? ? ? ? ? ?Kipling, /Something of Myself/, "Chapter 1 -- A Very Young
>> ? ? ? ? ? ?Person"
>>
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?My first impression is of daybreak, light and colour and
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?golden and purple fruits at the level of my shoulder. This
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?would be the memory of early morning walks to the Bombay
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?fruit
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?market with my /ayah/ and later with my sister in her
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?perambulator, and of our returns with our purchases piled
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?high
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?on the bows of it. Our /ayah/ was a Portuguese Roman Catholic
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?who would pray?I beside her?at a wayside Cross. Meeta, my
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?Hindu bearer, would sometimes go into little Hindu temples
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?where, being below the age of caste, I held his hand and
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?looked at the dimly-seen, friendly Gods[. . . .]
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?In the afternoon heats before we took our sleep, she or Meeta
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?would tell us stories and Indian nursery songs all
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?unforgotten, and we were sent into the dining-room after we
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?had been dressed, with the caution ?Speak English now to Papa
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?and Mamma.? So one spoke ?English,? haltingly translated out
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?of the vernacular idiom that one thought and dreamed in.
>>
>> ? ? ? ? ? ?Kipling, "Baa Baa, Black Sheep"
>>
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?The Swedish boatswain consoled him, and he modified his
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?opinions as the voyage went on. There was so much to see and
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?to handle and ask questions about that Punch nearly forgot
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?the
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?/ayah/ and Meeta and the /hamal/, and with difficulty
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?remembered a few words of the Hindustani once his
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?second-speech.
>>
>> ? ? ? ? ? ?Kipling, "The Potted Princess"
>>
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?NOW this is the true tale that was told to Punch and Judy,
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?his
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?sister, by their nurse, in the city of Bombay, ten thousand
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?miles from here. They were playing in the veranda, waiting
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?for
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?their mother to come back from her evening drive. The big
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?pink
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?crane, who generally lived by himself at the bottom of the
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?garden because he hated horses and carriages, was with them
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?too, and the nurse, who was called the ayah, was making him
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?dance by throwing pieces of mud at him. Pink cranes dance
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?very
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?prettily until they grow angry. Then they peck.
>>>
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?This pink crane lost his temper, opened his wings, and
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?clattered his beak, and the ayah had to sing a song which
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?never fails to quiet all the cranes in Bombay. It is a very
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?old song, and it says:
>>>
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?Buggle baita nuddee kinara,
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?Toom-toom niushia kaye,
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?Nuddee kinara kanta lugga
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?Tullaka-tullaka ju jaye.
>>>
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?That means: A crane sat by the river-bank, eating fish
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?/toom-toom/, and a thorn in the riverbank pricked him, and
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?his
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?life went away /tullakatullaka/?drop by drop. The /ayah/ and
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?Punch and Judy always talked Hindustani because they
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?understood it better than English.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ********************************************
>> Charles L. Sligh
>> Assistant Professor
>> Department of English
>> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
>> charles-sligh at utc.edu
>> ********************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 12:37:25 -0400
>From: Charles Sligh <Charles-Sligh at utc.edu>
>Subject: Re: [ilds] "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Message-ID: <4C277E45.2030608 at utc.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
>Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>
>> And that's the way I take his statements about speaking Hindi and
>> Urdu. ?They're not statements of fact ? they're metaphors.
>>
>>
>Yes, /now/ you are getting a sense of the thing.
>
>C&c.
>
>--
>********************************************
>Charles L. Sligh
>Assistant Professor
>Department of English
>University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
>charles-sligh at utc.edu
>********************************************
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 10:02:35 -0700
>From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [ilds] "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>To: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Message-ID: <1A94C8CF-D316-49C4-B918-387C9DF60A56 at earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
>Charles,
>
>The real question is, to what extent did Durrell know what he was doing? ?My opinion: ?sometimes he lied knowingly, but he did that so often that lies became Truth, for him anyway.
>
>
>Bruce
>
>
>
>On Jun 27, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Charles Sligh wrote:
>
>> Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>
>>> And that's the way I take his statements about speaking Hindi and
>>> Urdu. ?They're not statements of fact ? they're metaphors.
>>>
>>>
>> Yes, /now/ you are getting a sense of the thing.
>>
>> C&c.
>>
>> --
>> ********************************************
>> Charles L. Sligh
>> Assistant Professor
>> Department of English
>> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
>> charles-sligh at utc.edu
>> ********************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:27:30 -0400
>From: Charles Sligh <Charles-Sligh at utc.edu>
>Subject: Re: [ilds] "for an account of that sort of life, Kipling."
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Message-ID: <4C278A02.9040102 at utc.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
>I will give you the gift of a text.
>
>> ? ? ? ? But one can see the astute attendant Brahmans from here,
>> ? ? ? ? skilled in directing the heavenly intuitions of both men and
>> ? ? ? ? beasts to their own profit. The praises of kings as rehearsed
>> ? ? ? ? on these documents are monuments of hyperbole[. . . .] ?All is
>> ? ? ? ? done, however, with such an air of conviction and pious
>> ? ? ? ? purpose that we must use Dr. Johnson's kindly discrimination
>> ? ? ? ? and say they are not inexcusable, but consecrated liars.
>
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Lockwood Kipling, /Beast and man in
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?India: a popular sketch of Indian
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?animals in their relations with the
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?people/ (1904)
>
>--
>********************************************
>Charles L. Sligh
>Assistant Professor
>Department of English
>University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
>charles-sligh at utc.edu
>********************************************
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>End of ILDS Digest, Vol 39, Issue 16
>************************************
>


-- 
Vivienne DuBourdieu, MCIJ
vidubo at gmail.com
T: 01323 873046 or 07932 714063
http://strollingplayer.com
http://travlark.com



      
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Jun 28 14:16:56 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 14:16:56 -0700
Subject: [ilds] OMG Poetry Session
In-Reply-To: <709000.87919.qm@web82103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <709000.87919.qm@web82103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <84C2955D-EEF0-47CB-9353-248FB8420907@earthlink.net>

Has the current issue of Deus Loci (no. 11) been mailed?  I haven't received it and have been looking forward to reading the poems and articles in that number.


Bruce



On Jun 28, 2010, at 1:50 PM, Paul Lorenz wrote:

> Dear Durrellians,
> 
> As the time for our biannual conference in New Orleans approaches, I want to alert everyone to the Poetry Session to be held on Saturday, July 10, from 1:30-2:45 p.m. In what has become a familiar and popular tradition, we will share poems by and in the spirit of Lawrence Durrell during this time. Please pack them in your bags when you come. All themes and topics Durrellian are welcome. 
> 
> This should be a pleasant way to punctuate a great week with good poetry. Do plan to join us.
> 
> Best ILDS wishes,
> 
> David Radavich
> ?
> Please note: This email was meant to be sent out a couple of weeks ago, but I was in Turkey and unable to send it for David. I hope you will be able to join us in the poetry session. ? PHL

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From lillios at mail.ucf.edu  Mon Jun 28 18:36:32 2010
From: lillios at mail.ucf.edu (Anna Lillios)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 21:36:32 -0400
Subject: [ilds] OMG Poetry Session
Message-ID: <4C2915E00200004D00059DEF@mail.ucf.edu>

Hi Bruce,

     DEUS LOCI 11 has been printed and is being mailed to me to send
out.  You should be receiving it soon.

     --Anna


Dr. Anna Lillios
Associate Professor of English
Department of English
University of Central Florida
P.O. Box 161346
Orlando, Florida 32816-1346

Phone: (407) 823-5161
FAX: (407) 823-6582
>>> Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> 06/28/10 5:33 PM >>>
Has the current issue of Deus Loci (no. 11) been mailed?  I haven't
received it and have been looking forward to reading the poems and
articles in that number.


Bruce



On Jun 28, 2010, at 1:50 PM, Paul Lorenz wrote:

> Dear Durrellians,
> 
> As the time for our biannual conference in New Orleans approaches, I
want to alert everyone to the Poetry Session to be held on Saturday,
July 10, from 1:30-2:45 p.m. In what has become a familiar and popular
tradition, we will share poems by and in the spirit of Lawrence Durrell
during this time. Please pack them in your bags when you come. All
themes and topics Durrellian are welcome. 
> 
> This should be a pleasant way to punctuate a great week with good
poetry. Do plan to join us.
> 
> Best ILDS wishes,
> 
> David Radavich
> ?
> Please note: This email was meant to be sent out a couple of weeks
ago, but I was in Turkey and unable to send it for David. I hope you
will be able to join us in the poetry session. ? PHL



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Jun 29 07:36:10 2010
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 07:36:10 -0700
Subject: [ilds] OMG Poetry Session
In-Reply-To: <4C2915E00200004D00059DEF@mail.ucf.edu>
References: <4C2915E00200004D00059DEF@mail.ucf.edu>
Message-ID: <C78A331F-2AE7-478B-A4B9-366EA51E6BD1@earthlink.net>

Thanks, Anna.


Bruce



On Jun 28, 2010, at 6:36 PM, Anna Lillios wrote:

> Hi Bruce,
> 
>     DEUS LOCI 11 has been printed and is being mailed to me to send
> out.  You should be receiving it soon.
> 
>     --Anna
> 
> 
> Dr. Anna Lillios
> Associate Professor of English
> Department of English
> University of Central Florida
> P.O. Box 161346
> Orlando, Florida 32816-1346
> 
> Phone: (407) 823-5161
> FAX: (407) 823-6582
>>>> Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> 06/28/10 5:33 PM >>>
> Has the current issue of Deus Loci (no. 11) been mailed?  I haven't
> received it and have been looking forward to reading the poems and
> articles in that number.
> 
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 28, 2010, at 1:50 PM, Paul Lorenz wrote:
> 
>> Dear Durrellians,
>> 
>> As the time for our biannual conference in New Orleans approaches, I
> want to alert everyone to the Poetry Session to be held on Saturday,
> July 10, from 1:30-2:45 p.m. In what has become a familiar and popular
> tradition, we will share poems by and in the spirit of Lawrence Durrell
> during this time. Please pack them in your bags when you come. All
> themes and topics Durrellian are welcome. 
>> 
>> This should be a pleasant way to punctuate a great week with good
> poetry. Do plan to join us.
>> 
>> Best ILDS wishes,
>> 
>> David Radavich
>> ?
>> Please note: This email was meant to be sent out a couple of weeks
> ago, but I was in Turkey and unable to send it for David. I hope you
> will be able to join us in the poetry session. ? PHL
> 
>