From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Mon May 31 06:37:13 2010 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 15:37:13 +0200 Subject: [ilds] Finally In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: <4C03BB89.2000900@interdesign.fr> There is no "truth". We each have our own selected fictions. Bravo LD! Marc Le 30/05/10 19:33, Godshalk, William (godshawl) a ?crit : > > The Quartet is a great and rewarding work. But of all its mysteries, to me the greatest one is this: How could Darley be completely unfazed when he finds out that Justine only wanted to use him; that Melissa was never turned on by him; and that Clea wanted out of the relationship so bad she started going wacko? II'd be crushed, but not him! > > Yes, but can Darley ever KNOW that these are truths? Justine (the novel) is apparently the truth when Darley first gets involved with Justine (the woman). Then Bal gives his vision in the great redaction. Then an unknown narrator tells the story from Mountolive's point of view -- which is quite different. Finally Clea gets her shot at re-redaction. > > When Darley finishes (both reading and writing) these related narratives, he's probably more puzzled than crushed. > > What is truth asked jesting Durrell > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon May 31 10:14:39 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 10:14:39 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Finally In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> Congratulations on finishing the Quartet. William Apt raises important questions that, in my opinion, are not answered by raising the old Durrellian placard about Truth and its elusiveness, i.e., "Truth is what most contradicts itself." Apt, if I may speak for him, is questioning the depth of Durrell's characterization of Darley, who bears the same initials as the author himself, LGD. I have to agree with Apt. Durrell's part-time narrator is shallow, as shallow as the tepid sands of the estuary where Melissa lies buried. Now Durrell, in the execution of his Quartet, may have decided to emphasize the ambiguity or relativity of the world we live in, which makes Alexandria so dazzling and bewitching a place, but in doing so he sacrificed his main narrator and did not make him particularly convincing as a human being. He's like Thales, the first Greek philosopher, who walked around contemplating the big questions and then fell into a well and broke his neck. On the other hand, maybe this is exactly what old Durrell wanted. "Who knows?" as WG might say. Bruce On May 30, 2010, at 10:33 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > > The Quartet is a great and rewarding work. But of all its mysteries, to me the greatest one is this: How could Darley be completely unfazed when he finds out that Justine only wanted to use him; that Melissa was never turned on by him; and that Clea wanted out of the relationship so bad she started going wacko? II'd be crushed, but not him! > > Yes, but can Darley ever KNOW that these are truths? Justine (the novel) is apparently the truth when Darley first gets involved with Justine (the woman). Then Bal gives his vision in the great redaction. Then an unknown narrator tells the story from Mountolive's point of view -- which is quite different. Finally Clea gets her shot at re-redaction. > > When Darley finishes (both reading and writing) these related narratives, he's probably more puzzled than crushed. > > What is truth asked jesting Durrell > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100531/be72b775/attachment.html From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Mon May 31 10:42:51 2010 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 13:42:51 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Finally In-Reply-To: <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> "Truth is what most contradicts itself." ?Truth is what most contradicts itself in time.? Let us not forget "in time." What does "in time" mean? That truth which changes in our perception as we grow older? Remember the passage from Dover Beach: (a) The Sea of Faith Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled. (b) But now I only hear Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar, Retreating, to the breath Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear And naked shingles of the world. From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon May 31 11:11:19 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 11:11:19 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Finally In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: I think we're talking about Darley's emotions or lack of them, not his "perceptions." BR Sent from my iPhone On May 31, 2010, at 10:42 AM, "Godshalk, William (godshawl)" wrote: > > "Truth is what most contradicts itself." > > ?Truth is what most contradicts itself in time.? > > Let us not forget "in time." > > What does "in time" mean? That truth which changes in our > perception as we grow older? Remember the passage from Dover Beach: > > (a) The Sea of Faith > Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore > Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled. > > (b) But now I only hear > Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar, > Retreating, to the breath > Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear > And naked shingles of the world. > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Mon May 31 13:57:41 2010 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 16:57:41 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Finally In-Reply-To: References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0809@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> May I have perceptions of Darley's emotions, as I perceive them? W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * * University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * OH 45221-0069 * * ________________________________________ From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 2:11 PM To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Cc: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Subject: Re: [ilds] Finally I think we're talking about Darley's emotions or lack of them, not his "perceptions." BR Sent from my iPhone On May 31, 2010, at 10:42 AM, "Godshalk, William (godshawl)" wrote: > > "Truth is what most contradicts itself." > > ?Truth is what most contradicts itself in time.? > > Let us not forget "in time." > > What does "in time" mean? That truth which changes in our > perception as we grow older? Remember the passage from Dover Beach: > > (a) The Sea of Faith > Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore > Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled. > > (b) But now I only hear > Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar, > Retreating, to the breath > Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear > And naked shingles of the world. > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon May 31 14:12:11 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 14:12:11 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Finally In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0809@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0809@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: Bill, That's sounds redundant. I thought we were talking about a work of art, how its works or fails within a given form, a finite process, not our reactions, which are infinite and can lead nowhere in particular. But if you want to go that route, that's okay. I still think William Apt is on the right track, and his questions should not be dismissed. Bruce On May 31, 2010, at 1:57 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > May I have perceptions of Darley's emotions, as I perceive them? > > > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * * > University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * > OH 45221-0069 * * > ________________________________________ > From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 2:11 PM > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Cc: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Subject: Re: [ilds] Finally > > I think we're talking about Darley's emotions or lack of them, not his > "perceptions." > > > BR > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 31, 2010, at 10:42 AM, "Godshalk, William (godshawl)" > wrote: > >> >> "Truth is what most contradicts itself." >> >> ?Truth is what most contradicts itself in time.? >> >> Let us not forget "in time." >> >> What does "in time" mean? That truth which changes in our >> perception as we grow older? Remember the passage from Dover Beach: >> >> (a) The Sea of Faith >> Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore >> Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled. >> >> (b) But now I only hear >> Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar, >> Retreating, to the breath >> Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear >> And naked shingles of the world. >> From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Mon May 31 16:05:17 2010 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 19:05:17 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Finally In-Reply-To: References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0809@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB080E@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> "I thought we were talking about a work of art, how its works or fails within a given form, a finite process, not our reactions, which are infinite and can lead nowhere in particular. But if you want to go that route, that's okay." Thanks. All the world's in flux -- including literary texts. Wm From billyapt at gmail.com Mon May 31 16:54:41 2010 From: billyapt at gmail.com (William Apt) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 17:54:41 -0600 Subject: [ilds] Finally In-Reply-To: <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Gentlemen: I see both positions, and both make sense. But as I gave it some more thought, this occurred to me too: Darley, we must remember, is not, by own admission, a particularly exceptional fellow; in fact, at the beginning of Justine one theme is the aimlessness of his own life, at what a low point he is, and how emotionally bankrupt he is. As I recall, Durrell once said in an interview that he (Durrell) had never been happy. Perhaps Darley possesses a self-loathing quality - one that maybe Durrell was not fully aware of - that accounts for his mysteriously passive acceptance of rejection by women? BILLY APT On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > Congratulations on finishing the *Quartet.* > > William Apt raises important questions that, in my opinion, are not > answered by raising the old Durrellian placard about Truth and its > elusiveness, i.e., "Truth is what most contradicts itself." Apt, if I may > speak for him, is questioning the depth of Durrell's characterization of > Darley, who bears the same initials as the author himself, LGD. I have to > agree with Apt. Durrell's part-time narrator is shallow, as shallow as the > tepid sands of the estuary where Melissa lies buried. Now Durrell, in the > execution of his *Quartet,* may have decided to emphasize the ambiguity or > relativity of the world we live in, which makes Alexandria so dazzling and > bewitching a place, but in doing so he sacrificed his main narrator and did > not make him particularly convincing as a human being. He's like Thales, > the first Greek philosopher, who walked around contemplating the big > questions and then fell into a well and broke his neck. On the other hand, > maybe this is exactly what old Durrell wanted. "Who knows?" as WG might > say. > > > Bruce > > > > On May 30, 2010, at 10:33 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > > > The Quartet is a great and rewarding work. But of all its mysteries, to me > the greatest one is this: How could Darley be completely unfazed when he > finds out that Justine only wanted to use him; that Melissa was never > turned on by him; and that Clea wanted out of the relationship so bad she > started going wacko? II'd be crushed, but not him! > > Yes, but can Darley ever KNOW that these are truths? Justine (the novel) is > apparently the truth when Darley first gets involved with Justine (the > woman). Then Bal gives his vision in the great redaction. Then an unknown > narrator tells the story from Mountolive's point of view -- which is quite > different. Finally Clea gets her shot at re-redaction. > > When Darley finishes (both reading and writing) these related narratives, > he's probably more puzzled than crushed. > > What is truth asked jesting Durrell > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > -- WILLIAM APT Attorney at Law 7004 Bee Cave Rd, Bldg 1, Ste 205 Austin TX 78746 512/708-8300 512/708-8011 FAX -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100531/35ec36c3/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon May 31 17:00:20 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 17:00:20 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Finally In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB080E@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0809@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB080E@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: I've heard that said before and still don't agree. BR On May 31, 2010, at 4:05 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > "I thought we were talking about a work of art, how its works or fails within a given form, a finite process, not our reactions, which are infinite and can lead nowhere in particular. But if you want to go that route, that's okay." > > Thanks. All the world's in flux -- including literary texts. > > Wm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100531/d8dbb6e1/attachment.html From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Mon May 31 18:36:22 2010 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 21:36:22 -0400 Subject: [ilds] high romance Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0811@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> High romance. That's what The Alexandria Quartet is. It has all the distinguishing factors of that genre, all the mystery and sex. L. Godshalk * Department of English * * University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * OH 45221-0069 * * ________________________________________ From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 8:00 PM To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Cc: Bruce Redwine Subject: Re: [ilds] Finally I've heard that said before and still don't agree. BR On May 31, 2010, at 4:05 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: "I thought we were talking about a work of art, how its works or fails within a given form, a finite process, not our reactions, which are infinite and can lead nowhere in particular. But if you want to go that route, that's okay." Thanks. All the world's in flux -- including literary texts. Wm From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon May 31 17:47:38 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 17:47:38 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Finally In-Reply-To: References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Another good point. I agree completely. The topic of self-loathing has come up before in our discussions. I see in L. G. Durrell himself that very disposition, along with a deep desire for self-extinction. He was not a happy man. Thanks for making the connection, Billy. This is a biographical/literary angle that should be pursued, and someone may be doing that right now. Bruce On May 31, 2010, at 4:54 PM, William Apt wrote: > Gentlemen: > > I see both positions, and both make sense. But as I gave it some more thought, this occurred to me too: Darley, we must remember, is not, by own admission, a particularly exceptional fellow; in fact, at the beginning of Justine one theme is the aimlessness of his own life, at what a low point he is, and how emotionally bankrupt he is. As I recall, Durrell once said in an interview that he (Durrell) had never been happy. Perhaps Darley possesses a self-loathing quality - one that maybe Durrell was not fully aware of - that accounts for his mysteriously passive acceptance of rejection by women? > > BILLY APT > > > On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > Congratulations on finishing the Quartet. > > William Apt raises important questions that, in my opinion, are not answered by raising the old Durrellian placard about Truth and its elusiveness, i.e., "Truth is what most contradicts itself." Apt, if I may speak for him, is questioning the depth of Durrell's characterization of Darley, who bears the same initials as the author himself, LGD. I have to agree with Apt. Durrell's part-time narrator is shallow, as shallow as the tepid sands of the estuary where Melissa lies buried. Now Durrell, in the execution of his Quartet, may have decided to emphasize the ambiguity or relativity of the world we live in, which makes Alexandria so dazzling and bewitching a place, but in doing so he sacrificed his main narrator and did not make him particularly convincing as a human being. He's like Thales, the first Greek philosopher, who walked around contemplating the big questions and then fell into a well and broke his neck. On the other hand, maybe this is exactly what old Durrell wanted. "Who knows?" as WG might say. > > > Bruce > > > > On May 30, 2010, at 10:33 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > >> >> The Quartet is a great and rewarding work. But of all its mysteries, to me the greatest one is this: How could Darley be completely unfazed when he finds out that Justine only wanted to use him; that Melissa was never turned on by him; and that Clea wanted out of the relationship so bad she started going wacko? II'd be crushed, but not him! >> >> Yes, but can Darley ever KNOW that these are truths? Justine (the novel) is apparently the truth when Darley first gets involved with Justine (the woman). Then Bal gives his vision in the great redaction. Then an unknown narrator tells the story from Mountolive's point of view -- which is quite different. Finally Clea gets her shot at re-redaction. >> >> When Darley finishes (both reading and writing) these related narratives, he's probably more puzzled than crushed. >> >> What is truth asked jesting Durrell >> _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > > -- > WILLIAM APT > Attorney at Law > 7004 Bee Cave Rd, Bldg 1, > Ste 205 > Austin TX 78746 > 512/708-8300 > 512/708-8011 FAX > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100531/126f684e/attachment.html From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Mon May 31 19:20:12 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 22:20:12 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Finally In-Reply-To: References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4C046E5C.9090608@utc.edu> Bruce Redwine wrote: > I see in L. G. Durrell himself that very disposition, along with a > deep desire for self-extinction. He was not a happy man. Thanks for > making the connection, Billy. This is a biographical/literary angle > that should be pursued, and someone may be doing that right now. Billy did not make the connection, Bruce. I think that you should feel free to take the full credit. C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Mon May 31 21:18:26 2010 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 00:18:26 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Finally In-Reply-To: References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net>, Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0812@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Of course, as I often remind any one who will read, Darley is a literary character. He doesn't do anything -- not as you and I do things. Would it make sense for me to say, I invited Darley over last weekend so that I could read him. Things didn't go well after he seduced Justine (in this forking path) my beloved wife. I sent him away by the earliest post. He is now back at the library. Perhaps these things could happen in a certain kind of novel. Wm W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * * University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * OH 45221-0069 * * ________________________________________ From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of William Apt [billyapt at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 7:54 PM To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Cc: Bruce Redwine Subject: Re: [ilds] Finally Gentlemen: I see both positions, and both make sense. But as I gave it some more thought, this occurred to me too: Darley, we must remember, is not, by own admission, a particularly exceptional fellow; in fact, at the beginning of Justine one theme is the aimlessness of his own life, at what a low point he is, and how emotionally bankrupt he is. As I recall, Durrell once said in an interview that he (Durrell) had never been happy. Perhaps Darley possesses a self-loathing quality - one that maybe Durrell was not fully aware of - that accounts for his mysteriously passive acceptance of rejection by women? BILLY APT On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Bruce Redwine > wrote: Congratulations on finishing the Quartet. William Apt raises important questions that, in my opinion, are not answered by raising the old Durrellian placard about Truth and its elusiveness, i.e., "Truth is what most contradicts itself." Apt, if I may speak for him, is questioning the depth of Durrell's characterization of Darley, who bears the same initials as the author himself, LGD. I have to agree with Apt. Durrell's part-time narrator is shallow, as shallow as the tepid sands of the estuary where Melissa lies buried. Now Durrell, in the execution of his Quartet, may have decided to emphasize the ambiguity or relativity of the world we live in, which makes Alexandria so dazzling and bewitching a place, but in doing so he sacrificed his main narrator and did not make him particularly convincing as a human being. He's like Thales, the first Greek philosopher, who walked around contemplating the big questions and then fell into a well and broke his neck. On the other hand, maybe this is exactly what old Durrell wanted. "Who knows?" as WG might say. Bruce On May 30, 2010, at 10:33 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: The Quartet is a great and rewarding work. But of all its mysteries, to me the greatest one is this: How could Darley be completely unfazed when he finds out that Justine only wanted to use him; that Melissa was never turned on by him; and that Clea wanted out of the relationship so bad she started going wacko? II'd be crushed, but not him! Yes, but can Darley ever KNOW that these are truths? Justine (the novel) is apparently the truth when Darley first gets involved with Justine (the woman). Then Bal gives his vision in the great redaction. Then an unknown narrator tells the story from Mountolive's point of view -- which is quite different. Finally Clea gets her shot at re-redaction. When Darley finishes (both reading and writing) these related narratives, he's probably more puzzled than crushed. What is truth asked jesting Durrell _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -- WILLIAM APT Attorney at Law 7004 Bee Cave Rd, Bldg 1, Ste 205 Austin TX 78746 512/708-8300 512/708-8011 FAX From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Tue Jun 1 06:03:53 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 09:03:53 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Introduction at 1962 London International Antiquarian Book Fair Message-ID: <4C050539.5040000@utc.edu> *History of the London International Antiquarian Book Fair - Founded in 1958* > Openers; the famous, the controversial, and the glamorous, were always > an important part of this and the fair has been opened by such diverse > people as Mrs. Harold Wilson, Lady Antonia Fraser, Tom Stoppard, Ted > Heath, Barry Humphries, The Earl of Drogheda, David Bellamy and > Princess Margaret. The openers have often, but not invariably, > contributed an introduction to the fair brochure. *Other introductions > were written by literary figures such as* John Betjeman, *Lawrence > Durrell*, Sacheverell Sitwell and John Arlott and these ephemeral > pieces have been eagerly sought by the ?completist? collector. *In the > case of Lawrence Durrell who contributed to the Fifth Fair (1962) > there was even a signed edition, limited I seem to remember to five > copies. One of these was auctioned at the fair, making ?100 for charity.* http://www.ilab.org/eng/documentation/241-history_of_the_london_international_antiquarian_book_fair_-_founded_in_1958.html -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 1 07:02:46 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 07:02:46 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Finally In-Reply-To: <4C046E5C.9090608@utc.edu> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <4C046E5C.9090608@utc.edu> Message-ID: <1C400058-E725-4D30-9FA2-F50FD9D31305@earthlink.net> I disagree. BR On May 31, 2010, at 7:20 PM, Charles Sligh wrote: > Bruce Redwine wrote: >> I see in L. G. Durrell himself that very disposition, along with a >> deep desire for self-extinction. He was not a happy man. Thanks for >> making the connection, Billy. This is a biographical/literary angle >> that should be pursued, and someone may be doing that right now. > Billy did not make the connection, Bruce. > > I think that you should feel free to take the full credit. > > C&c. > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Tue Jun 1 12:49:11 2010 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 15:49:11 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Finally In-Reply-To: <1C400058-E725-4D30-9FA2-F50FD9D31305@earthlink.net> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <4C046E5C.9090608@utc.edu>, <1C400058-E725-4D30-9FA2-F50FD9D31305@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0814@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> I disagreed! In thunder? On May 31, 2010, at 7:20 PM, Charles Sligh wrote: > Bruce Redwine wrote: >> I see in L. G. Durrell himself that very disposition, along with a >> deep desire for self-extinction. He was not a happy man. Thanks for >> making the connection, Billy. This is a biographical/literary angle >> that should be pursued, and someone may be doing that right now. > Billy did not make the connection, Bruce. > > I think that you should feel free to take the full credit. > > C&c. > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 1 12:42:31 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 12:42:31 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Finally In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0812@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0812@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: I disagree again, I think. I guess WG's main point is that literature exists in its own separate dimension, that authors live in theirs, that we readers live in ours, and that one shouldn't confuse the three. This is close to the old position of the New Criticism ? Brooks and Warren, along with Ransom and Wimsatt, those influential critics and their views from the 1930s through the 60s. So we once got into the habit of talking about personae and saying, the narrator or persona says such and such, but if we claimed, the author says such and such, then we immediately got into trouble and slapped on the wrist for saying something unacceptable and unprobable. This admonition has its place and usefulness. It works well from certain kinds of poets (Browning and his dramatic monologues) but not for others (Keats and his great odes). Generally, I don't think the English Romantics benefit from this approach, Byron being the obvious exception. Nor does Durrell, in my view, for all his love of multiple voices and narrators, especially all that "begat" stuff at the end of Monsieur, which I view as a lot of noise. So, I don't hold to WG's straitjacket of literary interpretation, if that's what he's advocating. I tend to look at Durrell's writings through the lens of his life and try to explain the former in terms of the latter. Seems a lot more interesting to me. At least, it fully engages the problem of Darley being such a weird narrator and character, as Billy Apt has recently pointed out. Bruce On May 31, 2010, at 9:18 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > Of course, as I often remind any one who will read, Darley is a literary character. He doesn't do anything -- not as you and I do things. > > Would it make sense for me to say, I invited Darley over last weekend so that I could read him. Things didn't go well after he seduced Justine (in this forking path) my beloved wife. I sent him away by the earliest post. He is now back at the library. > > Perhaps these things could happen in a certain kind of novel. > > Wm > > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * * > University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * > OH 45221-0069 * * > ________________________________________ > From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of William Apt [billyapt at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 7:54 PM > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Cc: Bruce Redwine > Subject: Re: [ilds] Finally > > Gentlemen: > > I see both positions, and both make sense. But as I gave it some more thought, this occurred to me too: Darley, we must remember, is not, by own admission, a particularly exceptional fellow; in fact, at the beginning of Justine one theme is the aimlessness of his own life, at what a low point he is, and how emotionally bankrupt he is. As I recall, Durrell once said in an interview that he (Durrell) had never been happy. Perhaps Darley possesses a self-loathing quality - one that maybe Durrell was not fully aware of - that accounts for his mysteriously passive acceptance of rejection by women? > > BILLY APT > > > On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Bruce Redwine > wrote: > Congratulations on finishing the Quartet. > > William Apt raises important questions that, in my opinion, are not answered by raising the old Durrellian placard about Truth and its elusiveness, i.e., "Truth is what most contradicts itself." Apt, if I may speak for him, is questioning the depth of Durrell's characterization of Darley, who bears the same initials as the author himself, LGD. I have to agree with Apt. Durrell's part-time narrator is shallow, as shallow as the tepid sands of the estuary where Melissa lies buried. Now Durrell, in the execution of his Quartet, may have decided to emphasize the ambiguity or relativity of the world we live in, which makes Alexandria so dazzling and bewitching a place, but in doing so he sacrificed his main narrator and did not make him particularly convincing as a human being. He's like Thales, the first Greek philosopher, who walked around contemplating the big questions and then fell into a well and broke his neck. On the other hand, maybe this is exactly what old Durrel! > l wanted. "Who knows?" as WG might say. > > > Bruce > > > > On May 30, 2010, at 10:33 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > > > The Quartet is a great and rewarding work. But of all its mysteries, to me the greatest one is this: How could Darley be completely unfazed when he finds out that Justine only wanted to use him; that Melissa was never turned on by him; and that Clea wanted out of the relationship so bad she started going wacko? II'd be crushed, but not him! > > Yes, but can Darley ever KNOW that these are truths? Justine (the novel) is apparently the truth when Darley first gets involved with Justine (the woman). Then Bal gives his vision in the great redaction. Then an unknown narrator tells the story from Mountolive's point of view -- which is quite different. Finally Clea gets her shot at re-redaction. > > When Darley finishes (both reading and writing) these related narratives, he's probably more puzzled than crushed. > > What is truth asked jesting Durrell > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > > -- > WILLIAM APT > Attorney at Law > 7004 Bee Cave Rd, Bldg 1, > Ste 205 > Austin TX 78746 > 512/708-8300 > 512/708-8011 FAX > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100601/0c3a1253/attachment.html From wilded at hotmail.com Tue Jun 1 11:56:38 2010 From: wilded at hotmail.com (david wilde) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 12:56:38 -0600 Subject: [ilds] Finally (2) In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: "...Let us not forget "in time." What does "in time" mean? That truth which changes in our perception as we grow older? Remember the passage from Dover Beach..." And don't let us forget the 'gnomic aorist' either in this typically provocative Durrellian sentence and the cleverly disguised use of his ever enigmatically and yet precisely ambiguous constantly shifting sand-dune-like metaphor of the greek infinitive for 'duration'. From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 13:42:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [ilds] Finally "Truth is what most contradicts itself." ?Truth is what most contradicts itself in time.? Let us not forget "in time." What does "in time" mean? That truth which changes in our perception as we grow older? Remember the passage from Dover Beach: (a) The Sea of Faith Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled. (b) But now I only hear Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar, Retreating, to the breath Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear And naked shingles of the world. _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100601/b04e0d76/attachment.html From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Wed Jun 2 07:57:35 2010 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 10:57:35 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Finally (2) In-Reply-To: References: , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> And don't let us forget the 'gnomic aorist' either in this typically provocative Durrellian sentence and the cleverly disguised use of his ever enigmatically and yet precisely ambiguous constantly shifting sand-dune-like metaphor of the greek infinitive for 'duration'. David, could you unpack this for US? For me, abyway. Bill From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 2 11:12:02 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:12:02 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Finally (2) In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: "Gnomic aorist" usually applies to Attic Greek. Dunno if Modern Greek has that tense. From my very little Greek, I understand the "gnomic aorist" to be a past tense, the aorist (i.e., with the sense of completion) that represents some truth. As the venerable H. W. Smyth says, in Greek Grammar (1956), "The aorist may express a general truth. The aorist simply states a past occurrence and leaves the reader to draw the inference from a concrete case that what has occurred once is typical of what often occurs" (sec. 1931). The aphorism, "Truth is what most contradicts itself in time," is in the present tense, not the past. Gnomic, yes; aorist, no. Durrell, however, definitely likes gnomic; he advocates a gnomic style somewhere. Whether he was influenced by Classical or possibly Modern Greek is a very interesting question, which could fall under that rubric of Durrell's diction, previously discussed. Bruce On Jun 2, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > > And don't let us forget the 'gnomic aorist' either in this typically provocative Durrellian sentence and the cleverly disguised use of his ever enigmatically and yet precisely ambiguous constantly shifting sand-dune-like metaphor of the greek infinitive for 'duration'. > > David, could you unpack this for US? For me, abyway. > > Bill > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100602/a8d96728/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 2 11:15:37 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:15:37 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Finally (2) In-Reply-To: References: , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: Correction. I meant "without the sense of completion." BR On Jun 2, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > "Gnomic aorist" usually applies to Attic Greek. Dunno if Modern Greek has that tense. From my very little Greek, I understand the "gnomic aorist" to be a past tense, the aorist (i.e., with the sense of completion) that represents some truth. As the venerable H. W. Smyth says, in Greek Grammar (1956), "The aorist may express a general truth. The aorist simply states a past occurrence and leaves the reader to draw the inference from a concrete case that what has occurred once is typical of what often occurs" (sec. 1931). The aphorism, "Truth is what most contradicts itself in time," is in the present tense, not the past. Gnomic, yes; aorist, no. Durrell, however, definitely likes gnomic; he advocates a gnomic style somewhere. Whether he was influenced by Classical or possibly Modern Greek is a very interesting question, which could fall under that rubric of Durrell's diction, previously discussed. > > > Bruce > > > > On Jun 2, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > >> >> And don't let us forget the 'gnomic aorist' either in this typically provocative Durrellian sentence and the cleverly disguised use of his ever enigmatically and yet precisely ambiguous constantly shifting sand-dune-like metaphor of the greek infinitive for 'duration'. >> >> David, could you unpack this for US? For me, abyway. >> >> Bill >> _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100602/4ca8b4b3/attachment.html From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Wed Jun 2 11:21:03 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 14:21:03 -0400 Subject: [ilds] gnomic aorist In-Reply-To: References: , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: <4C06A10F.4040504@utc.edu> Bruce Redwine wrote: > Durrell, however, definitely likes /gnomic;/ he advocates a gnomic > style somewhere. Whether he was influenced by Classical or possibly > Modern Greek is a very interesting question, which could fall under > that rubric of Durrell's diction, previously discussed. > Cf. /The Black Book/: > Not even the phenomenon of Grace disturbed my life as much as that > glimpse of the social mysteries. Horses > sweat, but Grace perspires; very delicately on the smooth flesh, on > the thin flanks, under the tiny > undernourished breasts. The blue?veined phthisic fingers are moist and > languorous. But why the present > tense? For Grace is no more; no more the street girl who sat, hugging > her knees, and staring at the empty > wallpaper. Shall we write of her in the gnomic aorist? Shall we invest > her with an epitaph? She would not > understand it. She understood nothing. She seemed not to hear. You > could speak to her, sing to her, dance > before her, and the distances she contemplated were not diminished by > one inch. > Here, it is real enough the stage on which I re?create this chronicle > of the English death. There is Bach > playing in the roars of the wind, the piercing slatterns of the rain. > There is you dancing, and the million yous > who persist in matter, echo, weep, cry, exult in flower powder, > smaragd, Italy, moon, veins of rock. There is > the cadenza of flesh here naked, and the you who run to the conclusion > of autumn, selfless and melancholy, or > smolder on the beach savagely. in all particulars of the body you are > working, in the dark sump of the vagina, > brewing vegetable history, sowing continents in whom I am the reaper; > in the dusty sandals or the naked toes. > It is forced upon me to write of you always in the gnomic aorist. For > this is the new vocabulary which I am > learning with ease. I am beginning my agony in the garden and there > are too many words, and too many things to put into words. in the > fantastic proscenium of the ego, when I begin my soliloquy, I shall > not choose as > Gregory chose. To be or not to be. It is in your capacity as Judas > that you have chosen for me. The question > has been decided. Art must no longer exist to depict man, but to > invoke God. It is on the face of this chaos that > I brood. And on the same chaos printed, across the faces of these > hideous mimes of mine, your pale glyph. > The white illusion of bone and tissue, the firm cheekbones set in soft > plates of flesh, the pouting mouth, the > soft jawless head of the snake, the lips as delicate as the biscuit. > Lubra in the dark, and when the swords grow > up from Constantinople, marmoreal, caryatid, pupa of flesh growing > upward among the bones, carrying them > upward from the hip, irresistible leaven. The hills snooze on with the > liths of your fingers laid over them: the > sensitive calyx of the pelvis like the dish of land which holds our > sea, silent outside the house. All that is > dying in me in this fatal landscape, your mine among active things, > stone, shards, language, meteors, butter. > Nothing but the punic body, our essential traitor, which stifles me > with its pollens. Snore on, you winter sea, > there is no more in here than the seven hectic elements can offer me: > more than the fantasy of the third ocean, > dipping its brush among the molten colors, leaking down to the hot > magma of things. More. More. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 11:44:21 2010 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:44:21 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Finally (2) In-Reply-To: References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: Durrell describes the Gnomic Aorist in his letters to Henry Miller while describing /The Black Book/ in conjunction with the historic present (I'm annotating things at the moment and stumbled over this just a few days ago...). It's closely tied to his notion of the Heraldic Universe, likely in early 1937. Someone with a copy of the letters handy may want to look up the actual passage. It's an ongoing concept for Durrell, and while that one statement is in the present tense (truth *is*), I don't think we should dismiss David's idea. It rings of the truth to my ear... Cheers, James On 2 June 2010 11:12, Bruce Redwine wrote: > "Gnomic aorist" usually applies to Attic Greek. ?Dunno if Modern Greek has > that tense. ?From my very little Greek, I understand the "gnomic aorist" to > be a past tense, the aorist (i.e., with the sense of completion) that > represents some truth. ?As the venerable H. W. Smyth says, in Greek Grammar > (1956), "The aorist may express a general truth. ?The aorist simply states a > past occurrence and leaves the reader to draw the inference from a concrete > case that what has occurred once is typical of what often occurs" (sec. > 1931). ?The aphorism, "Truth is what most contradicts itself in time," is in > the present tense, not the past. ?Gnomic, yes; aorist, no. ?Durrell, > however, definitely likes?gnomic; he advocates a gnomic style somewhere. > ?Whether he was influenced by Classical or possibly Modern Greek is a very > interesting question, which could fall under that rubric of Durrell's > diction, previously discussed. > > Bruce > > > On Jun 2, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > > And don't let us forget the 'gnomic aorist' either in this typically > provocative Durrellian sentence and the cleverly disguised use of his ever > enigmatically and yet precisely ambiguous constantly shifting sand-dune-like > metaphor of the greek infinitive for 'duration'. > > David, could you unpack this for US? For me, abyway. > > Bill > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > -- --------------------------------------- James Gifford, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of English and University Core Director School of English, Philosophy and Humanities University College: Arts, Sciences, Professional Studies Fairleigh Dickinson University, Vancouver Campus Voice: 604-648-4476 Fax: 604-648-4489 E-mail: gifford at fdu.edu http://alpha.fdu.edu/~jgifford 842 Cambie Street Vancouver, BC V6B 2P6 Canada From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Wed Jun 2 12:20:59 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 15:20:59 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Finally (2) In-Reply-To: References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: <4C06AF1B.5030105@utc.edu> James Gifford wrote: > Durrell describes the Gnomic Aorist in his letters to Henry Miller > while describing /The Black Book/ in conjunction with the historic > present (I'm annotating things at the moment and stumbled over this > just a few days ago...). It's closely tied to his notion of the > Heraldic Universe, likely in early 1937. Someone with a copy of the > letters handy may want to look up the actual passage. > James: See my previous email with the quick copy-and-paste quotes from /The Black Book/. If you have a good edition handy, I would appreciate your passing on the page numbers. I am mobile at present and have no paper copies at hand. . . . Many thanks! C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 2 13:16:35 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 13:16:35 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Finally (2) In-Reply-To: References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: <8AB45ECE-1191-40D0-BB1C-58144F057E2A@earthlink.net> Let me be pedantic. English doesn't have the exact equivalent of the Greek "gnomic aorist," so if you want to capture the sense of the Greek aorist, a past tense, you have to use the English present. John Lyons, a British semanticist, gives examples of "gnomic" expressions in English ("It never rains but it pours"), and they're all in the present (Semantics, II, 681 [1977]). Durrell, on the other hand, has his own special usage of "gnomic aorist." Charles has provided passages from The Black Book (1977), where Durrell/Gregory asks, "Shall we write of her in the gnomic aorist?" (42) and later, "It is forced upon me to write of you always in the gnomic aorist" (243). Well, this is clearly impossible, since English has no such tense; moreover, these passages are in the present. But Durrell is breaking new ground, perhaps "Heraldic," and learning a "new vocabulary," so this fits in nicely. I believe that here you can see Durrell being influenced by his study of Greek on Corfu and learning new ways to deal with Time. I also wonder if Durrell latched onto "gnomic" for personal reasons, the word being directly related to gnome. Bruce On Jun 2, 2010, at 11:44 AM, James Gifford wrote: > Durrell describes the Gnomic Aorist in his letters to Henry Miller > while describing /The Black Book/ in conjunction with the historic > present (I'm annotating things at the moment and stumbled over this > just a few days ago...). It's closely tied to his notion of the > Heraldic Universe, likely in early 1937. Someone with a copy of the > letters handy may want to look up the actual passage. > > It's an ongoing concept for Durrell, and while that one statement is > in the present tense (truth *is*), I don't think we should dismiss > David's idea. It rings of the truth to my ear... > > Cheers, > James > > On 2 June 2010 11:12, Bruce Redwine wrote: >> "Gnomic aorist" usually applies to Attic Greek. Dunno if Modern Greek has >> that tense. From my very little Greek, I understand the "gnomic aorist" to >> be a past tense, the aorist (i.e., with the sense of completion) that >> represents some truth. As the venerable H. W. Smyth says, in Greek Grammar >> (1956), "The aorist may express a general truth. The aorist simply states a >> past occurrence and leaves the reader to draw the inference from a concrete >> case that what has occurred once is typical of what often occurs" (sec. >> 1931). The aphorism, "Truth is what most contradicts itself in time," is in >> the present tense, not the past. Gnomic, yes; aorist, no. Durrell, >> however, definitely likes gnomic; he advocates a gnomic style somewhere. >> Whether he was influenced by Classical or possibly Modern Greek is a very >> interesting question, which could fall under that rubric of Durrell's >> diction, previously discussed. >> >> Bruce >> >> >> On Jun 2, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: >> >> And don't let us forget the 'gnomic aorist' either in this typically >> provocative Durrellian sentence and the cleverly disguised use of his ever >> enigmatically and yet precisely ambiguous constantly shifting sand-dune-like >> metaphor of the greek infinitive for 'duration'. >> >> David, could you unpack this for US? For me, abyway. >> >> Bill >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> > > > > -- > --------------------------------------- > James Gifford, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor of English and University Core Director > School of English, Philosophy and Humanities > University College: Arts, Sciences, Professional Studies > Fairleigh Dickinson University, Vancouver Campus > Voice: 604-648-4476 > Fax: 604-648-4489 > E-mail: gifford at fdu.edu > http://alpha.fdu.edu/~jgifford > > 842 Cambie Street > Vancouver, BC > V6B 2P6 Canada -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100602/859e7276/attachment.html From aaronbarilan at yahoo.com Wed Jun 2 14:36:45 2010 From: aaronbarilan at yahoo.com (Aaron Bar-ilan) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ilds] Darley and women Message-ID: <871575.23247.qm@web114201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ "Darley had to learn everything from the beginning. He found a woman to teach him. And look at the trouble he got into." - Lawrence Durrell. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100602/8fbfdf9b/attachment.html From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 15:03:49 2010 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 15:03:49 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Finally (2) In-Reply-To: <4C06AF1B.5030105@utc.edu> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <4C06AF1B.5030105@utc.edu> Message-ID: Hi Charles, Your passages are pp. 42 and 243-4 of the Faber edition of /The Black Book/. I don't have my Dutton handy for those with only the American edition. As for the letters, It's p. 55 of MacNiven's edition of the Durrell-Miller letters (February? 1937). I'm not sure in Wickes, but I'd venture to guess there's more there since he included more materials than Ian did for that period. "In order to destroy time I use the historic present a great deal -- not to mention the gnomic aorist. It is not too risky, but here and there it was necessary, when dealing with Tarquin, who is (if he lives yet) something of a frontal sarcoma..." This is his description of writing /The Black Book/ in a draft form of about 70,000 words (which I've not compared with the actual final version's length). He'd already begun to study Greek and had at least some ancient Greek at school. I'd be inclined to link the phrasing of "destroy time" with his first description of the Heraldic Universe as "Destroying time" (in part a response to Herbert Read's endorsement of surrealism's communist politics), and the "Now," of course, is the close to /The Black Book/ itself. I hope the mobility is keeping you entertained! Cheers, James On 2 June 2010 12:20, Charles Sligh wrote: > James Gifford wrote: >> Durrell describes the Gnomic Aorist in his letters to Henry Miller >> while describing /The Black Book/ in conjunction with the historic >> present (I'm annotating things at the moment and stumbled over this >> just a few days ago...). ?It's closely tied to his notion of the >> Heraldic Universe, likely in early 1937. ?Someone with a copy of the >> letters handy may want to look up the actual passage. >> > James: > > See my previous email with the quick copy-and-paste quotes from /The > Black Book/. > > If you have a good edition handy, I would appreciate your passing on the > page numbers. ?I am mobile at present and have no paper copies at hand. > . . . > > Many thanks! > > C&c. > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > -- --------------------------------------- James Gifford, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of English and University Core Director School of English, Philosophy and Humanities University College: Arts, Sciences, Professional Studies Fairleigh Dickinson University, Vancouver Campus Voice: 604-648-4476 Fax: 604-648-4489 E-mail: gifford at fdu.edu http://alpha.fdu.edu/~jgifford 842 Cambie Street Vancouver, BC V6B 2P6 Canada From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Wed Jun 2 15:11:42 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 18:11:42 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Finally (2) In-Reply-To: References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <4C06AF1B.5030105@utc.edu> Message-ID: <4C06D71E.3080500@utc.edu> James Gifford wrote: > > I hope the mobility is keeping you entertained! > > Thanks so much! And yes, back and forth between the chicken coop and the garden with a Great Pyrenees /is/ entertaining. Good to hear the chatter here. We have /Buck Owens Live at Carnegie Hall/ on and hot potatoes baking in the fire; cool beverages now; steaks later. . . . Hail to absent friends from high on the ridge in Tennessee. C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 15:35:49 2010 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 15:35:49 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Finally (2) In-Reply-To: <8AB45ECE-1191-40D0-BB1C-58144F057E2A@earthlink.net> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <8AB45ECE-1191-40D0-BB1C-58144F057E2A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hey Bruce, Pedantry is always welcome -- my wife's BA was in Classics, so I have such things explained to me regularly... I think the timeless quality of the gnomic aorist is the crucial element, but the aphoristic component could be significant as well. It's easy to forget that his last attempt at a novel was intended to be entirely in asides or aphorisms. /The Black Book/ was first published in 1938 but was in large part drafted as early at 1935 and the start of 1936 (not 1977 -- Faber edition?). But, I do think we've wandered a bit from David Wilde's suggestion that we attend to Durrell's sense of time. David, where were you wanting to take us? I'm intrigued... My sense of the subsequent addition of "in time" to the contradiction of truth is partly the structure of the Quartet itself as a formal work as well as a more mystical notion of the nunc stans, to which Durrell also refers a few times. Both notions would turn attention back to Billy's comment on Darley's lack of reaction -- to that I can only say, Durrell doesn't really have any characters, does he? He says so overtly in /Tunc/ & /Nunquam/, but I think it applies to the Quartet as well. Charles might be able to comment on the mss. more, but to my understanding, the character identities are fairly flexible. For the Quintet notebooks, things are often written without a character, which he'd simply add while typing it up. The Quintet is expressly "a book full of spare parts of other books, of characters left over from other lives, all circulating in each other?s bloodstreams?. Be ye members of one another" (693). He was also very keen on D.H. Lawrence's notions of allotropic identity in the novel from the mid-1930s onward, so a stable character wasn't really a part of his oeuvre at any point, in my opinion. I'd also hesitate over a directly link between Darley and Durrell. Durrell voiced his identification most overtly with Pursewards, and while Darley shares many of LD's traits and experiences, as well as his initials, he's also quite clearly a different bloke. Apart from the slippage between an author, a narrator, and a character, I don't think Darley would stand up as either a hero or an authorial voice in this instance. I'd also avoid the Durrell/Gregory elision. Durrell's pretty clear in his disapproval of Gregory, to whom he gave the name Herbert at the same time as he was derogating Herbert Read to Miller. If there's a Durrell figure in that novel, it's clearly Lawrence Lucifer rather than Death Gregory, though again there are traits of Durrell in both of them as well as others. Durrell does appear as a character in the novel as well when he lets folks foolishly borrow his car... Cheers, James On 2 June 2010 13:16, Bruce Redwine wrote: > Let me be pedantic. ?English doesn't have the exact equivalent of the Greek > "gnomic aorist," so if you want to capture the sense of the Greek aorist, a > past tense, you have to use the English present. ?John Lyons, a British > semanticist, gives examples of "gnomic" expressions in English ("It never > rains but it pours"), and they're all in the present (Semantics, II, 681 > [1977]). > Durrell, on the other hand, has his own special usage of "gnomic aorist." > ?Charles has provided passages from The Black Book (1977), where > Durrell/Gregory asks, "Shall we write of her in the gnomic aorist?" (42) and > later, "It is forced upon me to write of you always in the gnomic aorist" > (243). ?Well, this is clearly impossible, since English has no such tense; > moreover, these passages are in the present. ?But Durrell is breaking new > ground, perhaps "Heraldic," and learning a "new vocabulary," so this fits in > nicely. > I believe that here you can see Durrell being influenced by his study of > Greek on Corfu and learning new ways to deal with Time. ?I also wonder if > Durrell latched onto "gnomic" for personal reasons, the word being directly > related to gnome. > > Bruce > > On Jun 2, 2010, at 11:44 AM, James Gifford wrote: > > Durrell describes the Gnomic Aorist in his letters to Henry Miller > while describing /The Black Book/ in conjunction with the historic > present (I'm annotating things at the moment and stumbled over this > just a few days ago...). ?It's closely tied to his notion of the > Heraldic Universe, likely in early 1937. ?Someone with a copy of the > letters handy may want to look up the actual passage. > > It's an ongoing concept for Durrell, and while that one statement is > in the present tense (truth *is*), I don't think we should dismiss > David's idea. ?It rings of the truth to my ear... > > Cheers, > James > > On 2 June 2010 11:12, Bruce Redwine wrote: > > "Gnomic aorist" usually applies to Attic Greek. ?Dunno if Modern Greek has > > that tense. ?From my very little Greek, I understand the "gnomic aorist" to > > be a past tense, the aorist (i.e., with the sense of completion) that > > represents some truth. ?As the venerable H. W. Smyth says, in Greek Grammar > > (1956), "The aorist may express a general truth. ?The aorist simply states a > > past occurrence and leaves the reader to draw the inference from a concrete > > case that what has occurred once is typical of what often occurs" (sec. > > 1931). ?The aphorism, "Truth is what most contradicts itself in time," is in > > the present tense, not the past. ?Gnomic, yes; aorist, no. ?Durrell, > > however, definitely likes?gnomic; he advocates a gnomic style somewhere. > > ?Whether he was influenced by Classical or possibly Modern Greek is a very > > interesting question, which could fall under that rubric of Durrell's > > diction, previously discussed. > > Bruce > > > On Jun 2, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > > And don't let us forget the 'gnomic aorist' either in this typically > > provocative Durrellian sentence and the cleverly disguised use of his ever > > enigmatically and yet precisely ambiguous constantly shifting sand-dune-like > > metaphor of the greek infinitive for 'duration'. > > David, could you unpack this for US? For me, abyway. > > Bill > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > ILDS mailing list > > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > > > -- > --------------------------------------- > James Gifford, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor of English and University Core Director > School of English, Philosophy and Humanities > University College: Arts, Sciences, Professional Studies > Fairleigh Dickinson University, Vancouver Campus > Voice: 604-648-4476 > Fax: 604-648-4489 > E-mail: gifford at fdu.edu > http://alpha.fdu.edu/~jgifford > > 842 Cambie Street > Vancouver, BC > V6B 2P6 Canada > > -- --------------------------------------- James Gifford, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of English and University Core Director School of English, Philosophy and Humanities University College: Arts, Sciences, Professional Studies Fairleigh Dickinson University, Vancouver Campus Voice: 604-648-4476 Fax: 604-648-4489 E-mail: gifford at fdu.edu http://alpha.fdu.edu/~jgifford 842 Cambie Street Vancouver, BC V6B 2P6 Canada From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Wed Jun 2 15:46:21 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 18:46:21 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Finally (2) In-Reply-To: References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <8AB45ECE-1191-40D0-BB1C-58144F057E2A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4C06DF3D.1050708@utc.edu> > > He was also very > keen on D.H. Lawrence's notions of allotropic identity in the novel > from the mid-1930s onward, so a stable character wasn't really a part > of his oeuvre at any point, in my opinion. I concur with that opinion. Reason: the point is not mere theory, it is a practical reality witnessed in the composition, in the notebook method. Character development is the least interesting point in Durrell's works. That false measure belongs to times past, to forms with which Durrell finds himself impatient. . . . Assemblage of disparate parts and poetic continuum are far more curious. Not everyone's cuppa, but there you have it. C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 2 16:37:42 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 16:37:42 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Finally (2) In-Reply-To: <4C06DF3D.1050708@utc.edu> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <8AB45ECE-1191-40D0-BB1C-58144F057E2A@earthlink.net> <4C06DF3D.1050708@utc.edu> Message-ID: <208A225C-3D48-4FAE-98DE-99ED514274C6@earthlink.net> Charles, I have a lot of trouble accepting that "character development is the least interesting point in Durrell's works," unless you're emphasizing a major flaw in his project. If Durrell has little interest in "character development," that "false measure" of "times past," then what's the point of two novels dealing with time as progress and development, Mountolive and Clea? What's the point of making a big to-do about the maturation of the artist, specifically Darley and Clea? Where's the "agon," if no change? Change in all forms abounds: an oaf becomes an impassioned public speaker, a noseless beauty gets a nose. James likes to compare the ending of the Quartet to Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. Well, that's obviously a Bildungsroman, or a special version of one, an Irish novel of an artist's development. I think Durrell clearly sees his lead characters in terms of development. I question how successful he is. And if not, why not? Bruce On Jun 2, 2010, at 3:46 PM, Charles Sligh wrote: >> >> He was also very >> keen on D.H. Lawrence's notions of allotropic identity in the novel >> from the mid-1930s onward, so a stable character wasn't really a part >> of his oeuvre at any point, in my opinion. > > I concur with that opinion. Reason: the point is not mere theory, it is > a practical reality witnessed in the composition, in the notebook method. > > Character development is the least interesting point in Durrell's > works. That false measure belongs to times past, to forms with which > Durrell finds himself impatient. . . . > > Assemblage of disparate parts and poetic continuum are far more > curious. Not everyone's cuppa, but there you have it. > > C&c. > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100602/2dbe31b0/attachment.html From wilded at hotmail.com Wed Jun 2 17:32:24 2010 From: wilded at hotmail.com (david wilde) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 18:32:24 -0600 Subject: [ilds] gnomic aorist In-Reply-To: <4C06A10F.4040504@utc.edu> References: , , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , , <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net>, , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , <4C06A10F.4040504@utc.edu> Message-ID: Black Book (1937) definitely set me thinking and taking Classical Greek (Scott-Liddle) grammar to discover the 'true- meaning' of the aorist - gnomic and otherwise which led me to discover the horror Durrell suffered in his many guises as a Public School (Private in the UK system) student in many a school setting of classical languages and history. This literary gem (Black Book) made possible by a transatlantic understanding between Durrell and Henry Miller. Miller advocated the use and misuse I suspect of the radical and irrational usage of grammar previously offered by the likes of Gertrude Stein (Ida) to peform a self-reflecting surreal drama. Notwithsatnding Andre Breton etc and the 'Pataphysique' art of Henry Miller's pre-WWII Paris. Amen. > Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:21:03 -0400 > From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Subject: [ilds] gnomic aorist > > Bruce Redwine wrote: > > Durrell, however, definitely likes /gnomic;/ he advocates a gnomic > > style somewhere. Whether he was influenced by Classical or possibly > > Modern Greek is a very interesting question, which could fall under > > that rubric of Durrell's diction, previously discussed. > > > > Cf. /The Black Book/: > > > Not even the phenomenon of Grace disturbed my life as much as that > > glimpse of the social mysteries. Horses > > sweat, but Grace perspires; very delicately on the smooth flesh, on > > the thin flanks, under the tiny > > undernourished breasts. The blue?veined phthisic fingers are moist and > > languorous. But why the present > > tense? For Grace is no more; no more the street girl who sat, hugging > > her knees, and staring at the empty > > wallpaper. Shall we write of her in the gnomic aorist? Shall we invest > > her with an epitaph? She would not > > understand it. She understood nothing. She seemed not to hear. You > > could speak to her, sing to her, dance > > before her, and the distances she contemplated were not diminished by > > one inch. > > > Here, it is real enough the stage on which I re?create this chronicle > > of the English death. There is Bach > > playing in the roars of the wind, the piercing slatterns of the rain. > > There is you dancing, and the million yous > > who persist in matter, echo, weep, cry, exult in flower powder, > > smaragd, Italy, moon, veins of rock. There is > > the cadenza of flesh here naked, and the you who run to the conclusion > > of autumn, selfless and melancholy, or > > smolder on the beach savagely. in all particulars of the body you are > > working, in the dark sump of the vagina, > > brewing vegetable history, sowing continents in whom I am the reaper; > > in the dusty sandals or the naked toes. > > It is forced upon me to write of you always in the gnomic aorist. For > > this is the new vocabulary which I am > > learning with ease. I am beginning my agony in the garden and there > > are too many words, and too many things to put into words. in the > > fantastic proscenium of the ego, when I begin my soliloquy, I shall > > not choose as > > Gregory chose. To be or not to be. It is in your capacity as Judas > > that you have chosen for me. The question > > has been decided. Art must no longer exist to depict man, but to > > invoke God. It is on the face of this chaos that > > I brood. And on the same chaos printed, across the faces of these > > hideous mimes of mine, your pale glyph. > > The white illusion of bone and tissue, the firm cheekbones set in soft > > plates of flesh, the pouting mouth, the > > soft jawless head of the snake, the lips as delicate as the biscuit. > > Lubra in the dark, and when the swords grow > > up from Constantinople, marmoreal, caryatid, pupa of flesh growing > > upward among the bones, carrying them > > upward from the hip, irresistible leaven. The hills snooze on with the > > liths of your fingers laid over them: the > > sensitive calyx of the pelvis like the dish of land which holds our > > sea, silent outside the house. All that is > > dying in me in this fatal landscape, your mine among active things, > > stone, shards, language, meteors, butter. > > Nothing but the punic body, our essential traitor, which stifles me > > with its pollens. Snore on, you winter sea, > > there is no more in here than the seven hectic elements can offer me: > > more than the fantasy of the third ocean, > > dipping its brush among the molten colors, leaking down to the hot > > magma of things. More. More. > > > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100602/7aaf2fd4/attachment.html From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Wed Jun 2 17:53:30 2010 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 20:53:30 -0400 Subject: [ilds] gnomic aorist In-Reply-To: References: , , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , , <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net>, , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , <4C06A10F.4040504@utc.edu>, Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB081B@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Well -- ask a question, get a lot back. W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * * University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * OH 45221-0069 * * ________________________________________ From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of david wilde [wilded at hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 8:32 PM To: International Lawrence Durrell Lawrence Durrell Society Subject: Re: [ilds] gnomic aorist Black Book (1937) definitely set me thinking and taking Classical Greek (Scott-Liddle) grammar to discover the 'true- meaning' of the aorist - gnomic and otherwise which led me to discover the horror Durrell suffered in his many guises as a Public School (Private in the UK system) student in many a school setting of classical languages and history. This literary gem (Black Book) made possible by a transatlantic understanding between Durrell and Henry Miller. Miller advocated the use and misuse I suspect of the radical and irrational usage of grammar previously offered by the likes of Gertrude Stein (Ida) to peform a self-reflecting surreal drama. Notwithsatnding Andre Breton etc and the 'Pataphysique' art of Henry Miller's pre-WWII Paris. Amen. > Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:21:03 -0400 > From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Subject: [ilds] gnomic aorist > > Bruce Redwine wrote: > > Durrell, however, definitely likes /gnomic;/ he advocates a gnomic > > style somewhere. Whether he was influenced by Classical or possibly > > Modern Greek is a very interesting question, which could fall under > > that rubric of Durrell's diction, previously discussed. > > > > Cf. /The Black Book/: > > > Not even the phenomenon of Grace disturbed my life as much as that > > glimpse of the social mysteries. Horses > > sweat, but Grace perspires; very delicately on the smooth flesh, on > > the thin flanks, under the tiny > > undernourished breasts. The blue?veined phthisic fingers are moist and > > languorous. But why the present > > tense? For Grace is no more; no more the street girl who sat, hugging > > her knees, and staring at the empty > > wallpaper. Shall we write of her in the gnomic aorist? Shall we invest > > her with an epitaph? She would not > > understand it. She understood nothing. She seemed not to hear. You > > could speak to her, sing to her, dance > > before her, and the distances she contemplated were not diminished by > > one inch. > > > Here, it is real enough the stage on which I re?create this chronicle > > of the English death. There is Bach > > playing in the roars of the wind, the piercing slatterns of the rain. > > There is you dancing, and the million yous > > who persist in matter, echo, weep, cry, exult in flower powder, > > smaragd, Italy, moon, veins of rock. There is > > the cadenza of flesh here naked, and the you who run to the conclusion > > of autumn, selfless and melancholy, or > > smolder on the beach savagely. in all particulars of the body you are > > working, in the dark sump of the vagina, > > brewing vegetable history, sowing continents in whom I am the reaper; > > in the dusty sandals or the naked toes. > > It is forced upon me to write of you always in the gnomic aorist. For > > this is the new vocabulary which I am > > learning with ease. I am beginning my agony in the garden and there > > are too many words, and too many things to put into words. in the > > fantastic proscenium of the ego, when I begin my soliloquy, I shall > > not choose as > > Gregory chose. To be or not to be. It is in your capacity as Judas > > that you have chosen for me. The question > > has been decided. Art must no longer exist to depict man, but to > > invoke God. It is on the face of this chaos that > > I brood. And on the same chaos printed, across the faces of these > > hideous mimes of mine, your pale glyph. > > The white illusion of bone and tissue, the firm cheekbones set in soft > > plates of flesh, the pouting mouth, the > > soft jawless head of the snake, the lips as delicate as the biscuit. > > Lubra in the dark, and when the swords grow > > up from Constantinople, marmoreal, caryatid, pupa of flesh growing > > upward among the bones, carrying them > > upward from the hip, irresistible leaven. The hills snooze on with the > > liths of your fingers laid over them: the > > sensitive calyx of the pelvis like the dish of land which holds our > > sea, silent outside the house. All that is > > dying in me in this fatal landscape, your mine among active things, > > stone, shards, language, meteors, butter. > > Nothing but the punic body, our essential traitor, which stifles me > > with its pollens. Snore on, you winter sea, > > there is no more in here than the seven hectic elements can offer me: > > more than the fantasy of the third ocean, > > dipping its brush among the molten colors, leaking down to the hot > > magma of things. More. More. > > > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds ________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. See how. From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Wed Jun 2 18:11:33 2010 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:11:33 -0400 Subject: [ilds] gnomic aorist In-Reply-To: <4C06A10F.4040504@utc.edu> References: , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> , <4C06A10F.4040504@utc.edu> Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB081D@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> " The blue?veined phthisic fingers are moist and languorous." It's a take off from Eliot. Durrell uses it more than once. Is this part of the Durrell style? From sandyhoward at ausi.com Wed Jun 2 17:47:08 2010 From: sandyhoward at ausi.com (Sandy Howard) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 17:47:08 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Finally (2) Message-ID: <20100602174708.D6DD58A3@resin06.mta.everyone.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100602/0cf80f7a/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 3 09:01:07 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 09:01:07 -0700 Subject: [ilds] gnomic aorist In-Reply-To: References: , , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , , <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net>, , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , <4C06A10F.4040504@utc.edu> Message-ID: <0EAD79B1-5F8F-4FB8-8697-19DDD41550C7@earthlink.net> Anything that encourages the study of Attic Greek ? I'm for. On Jun 2, 2010, at 5:32 PM, david wilde wrote: > Black Book (1937) definitely set me thinking and taking Classical Greek (Scott-Liddle) grammar to discover the 'true- meaning' of the aorist - gnomic and otherwise which led me to discover the horror Durrell suffered in his many guises as a Public School (Private in the UK system) student in many a school setting of classical languages and history. This literary gem (Black Book) made possible by a transatlantic understanding between Durrell and Henry Miller. Miller advocated the use and misuse I suspect of the radical and irrational usage of grammar previously offered by the likes of Gertrude Stein (Ida) to peform a self-reflecting surreal drama. Notwithsatnding Andre Breton etc and the 'Pataphysique' art of Henry Miller's pre-WWII Paris. Amen. > > > > Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:21:03 -0400 > > From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu > > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > > Subject: [ilds] gnomic aorist > > > > Bruce Redwine wrote: > > > Durrell, however, definitely likes /gnomic;/ he advocates a gnomic > > > style somewhere. Whether he was influenced by Classical or possibly > > > Modern Greek is a very interesting question, which could fall under > > > that rubric of Durrell's diction, previously discussed. > > > > > > > Cf. /The Black Book/: > > > > > Not even the phenomenon of Grace disturbed my life as much as that > > > glimpse of the social mysteries. Horses > > > sweat, but Grace perspires; very delicately on the smooth flesh, on > > > the thin flanks, under the tiny > > > undernourished breasts. The blue?veined phthisic fingers are moist and > > > languorous. But why the present > > > tense? For Grace is no more; no more the street girl who sat, hugging > > > her knees, and staring at the empty > > > wallpaper. Shall we write of her in the gnomic aorist? Shall we invest > > > her with an epitaph? She would not > > > understand it. She understood nothing. She seemed not to hear. You > > > could speak to her, sing to her, dance > > > before her, and the distances she contemplated were not diminished by > > > one inch. > > > > > Here, it is real enough the stage on which I re?create this chronicle > > > of the English death. There is Bach > > > playing in the roars of the wind, the piercing slatterns of the rain. > > > There is you dancing, and the million yous > > > who persist in matter, echo, weep, cry, exult in flower powder, > > > smaragd, Italy, moon, veins of rock. There is > > > the cadenza of flesh here naked, and the you who run to the conclusion > > > of autumn, selfless and melancholy, or > > > smolder on the beach savagely. in all particulars of the body you are > > > working, in the dark sump of the vagina, > > > brewing vegetable history, sowing continents in whom I am the reaper; > > > in the dusty sandals or the naked toes. > > > It is forced upon me to write of you always in the gnomic aorist. For > > > this is the new vocabulary which I am > > > learning with ease. I am beginning my agony in the garden and there > > > are too many words, and too many things to put into words. in the > > > fantastic proscenium of the ego, when I begin my soliloquy, I shall > > > not choose as > > > Gregory chose. To be or not to be. It is in your capacity as Judas > > > that you have chosen for me. The question > > > has been decided. Art must no longer exist to depict man, but to > > > invoke God. It is on the face of this chaos that > > > I brood. And on the same chaos printed, across the faces of these > > > hideous mimes of mine, your pale glyph. > > > The white illusion of bone and tissue, the firm cheekbones set in soft > > > plates of flesh, the pouting mouth, the > > > soft jawless head of the snake, the lips as delicate as the biscuit. > > > Lubra in the dark, and when the swords grow > > > up from Constantinople, marmoreal, caryatid, pupa of flesh growing > > > upward among the bones, carrying them > > > upward from the hip, irresistible leaven. The hills snooze on with the > > > liths of your fingers laid over them: the > > > sensitive calyx of the pelvis like the dish of land which holds our > > > sea, silent outside the house. All that is > > > dying in me in this fatal landscape, your mine among active things, > > > stone, shards, language, meteors, butter. > > > Nothing but the punic body, our essential traitor, which stifles me > > > with its pollens. Snore on, you winter sea, > > > there is no more in here than the seven hectic elements can offer me: > > > more than the fantasy of the third ocean, > > > dipping its brush among the molten colors, leaking down to the hot > > > magma of things. More. More. > > > > > > > > -- > > ******************************************** > > Charles L. Sligh > > Assistant Professor > > Department of English > > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > > charles-sligh at utc.edu > > ******************************************** > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ILDS mailing list > > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. See how. _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100603/0e07e6ed/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 3 09:03:36 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 09:03:36 -0700 Subject: [ilds] gnomic aorist In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB081D@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> , <4C06A10F.4040504@utc.edu> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB081D@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: <8812763C-299D-4FBE-AA59-E9AA09889FC4@earthlink.net> Yes. Gothic Eliot. James probably has many other examples. On Jun 2, 2010, at 6:11 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > " The blue?veined phthisic fingers are moist and languorous." > > It's a take off from Eliot. Durrell uses it more than once. > > Is this part of the Durrell style? From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Thu Jun 3 11:07:42 2010 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 11:07:42 -0700 Subject: [ilds] gnomic aorist In-Reply-To: References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <4C06A10F.4040504@utc.edu> Message-ID: As it happens, I have a piece appearing in /jml: Journal of Modern Literature/ later this summer on the politics of Durrell's early interactions with the English Surrealist crowd, in many respects via Miller's ties in Paris. I think you're right about the grammatical experimentations of Stein and Breton coming to LD via Miller, and they did expressly invite contributions to /Booster/ from Stein (the letter's in Victoria). I'd planning last term to teach /The Black Book/ beside Beckett's /Murphy/, but the gawds of the book industry distributors conspired against me. Nonetheless, there's something of an English surrealist moment running from 1934-45 with Gascoyne displacing Beckett as the translator and the mutual publication networks that rapidly spread from Corfu and Cairo to California... I recently discovered that production of Durrell's /The Black Book/ got as far as proofs for the Circle Editions coming out of Berkeley in the 1940s (Miller was tied to the anarchist Circle there via Rexroth and Leite, and they did bring out Durrell's /Zero and Asylum in the Snow/ at that time, among other quasi-surrealist avant garde works). By Durrell's claims in his letters, he'd begun drafting /The Black Book/ as early as 1935 when he wrapped up the proofs for /Pied Piper of Lovers/ on Corfu. While most of those mss. aren't available, I'd speculate on the process of learning Greek as being integrated over time, though he'd already had some Ancient Greek training while in England. Can any of our Modern Greek speakers on the list confirm whether or not Modern Greek has the gnomic aorist? I know it has only one past tense, and I don't believe it carries a distinct gnomic mood anymore, right? If that's the case, this wasn't new knowledge for LD when he moved to Greece -- he's already had it in school. Cheers, James On 2 June 2010 17:32, david wilde wrote: > Black Book (1937) definitely set me thinking and taking Classical Greek > (Scott-Liddle) grammar to discover the 'true- meaning' of the aorist - > gnomic and otherwise which led me to discover the horror Durrell suffered in > his many guises as a Public School (Private in the UK system) student in > many a school setting of classical languages and history. This literary gem > (Black Book) made possible by a transatlantic understanding between Durrell > and Henry Miller. Miller advocated the use and misuse I suspect of the > radical and irrational usage of grammar previously offered by the likes of > Gertrude Stein (Ida) to peform a self-reflecting surreal drama. > Notwithsatnding Andre Breton etc and the 'Pataphysique' art of Henry > Miller's pre-WWII Paris. Amen. > > > > > >> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:21:03 -0400 >> From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu >> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> Subject: [ilds] gnomic aorist > >> >> Bruce Redwine wrote: >> > Durrell, however, definitely likes /gnomic;/ he advocates a gnomic >> > style somewhere. Whether he was influenced by Classical or possibly >> > Modern Greek is a very interesting question, which could fall under >> > that rubric of Durrell's diction, previously discussed. >> > >> >> Cf. /The Black Book/: >> >> > Not even the phenomenon of Grace disturbed my life as much as that >> > glimpse of the social mysteries. Horses >> > sweat, but Grace perspires; very delicately on the smooth flesh, on >> > the thin flanks, under the tiny >> > undernourished breasts. The blue-veined phthisic fingers are moist and >> > languorous. But why the present >> > tense? For Grace is no more; no more the street girl who sat, hugging >> > her knees, and staring at the empty >> > wallpaper. Shall we write of her in the gnomic aorist? Shall we invest >> > her with an epitaph? She would not >> > understand it. She understood nothing. She seemed not to hear. You >> > could speak to her, sing to her, dance >> > before her, and the distances she contemplated were not diminished by >> > one inch. >> >> > Here, it is real enough the stage on which I re-create this chronicle >> > of the English death. There is Bach >> > playing in the roars of the wind, the piercing slatterns of the rain. >> > There is you dancing, and the million yous >> > who persist in matter, echo, weep, cry, exult in flower powder, >> > smaragd, Italy, moon, veins of rock. There is >> > the cadenza of flesh here naked, and the you who run to the conclusion >> > of autumn, selfless and melancholy, or >> > smolder on the beach savagely. in all particulars of the body you are >> > working, in the dark sump of the vagina, >> > brewing vegetable history, sowing continents in whom I am the reaper; >> > in the dusty sandals or the naked toes. >> > It is forced upon me to write of you always in the gnomic aorist. For >> > this is the new vocabulary which I am >> > learning with ease. I am beginning my agony in the garden and there >> > are too many words, and too many things to put into words. in the >> > fantastic proscenium of the ego, when I begin my soliloquy, I shall >> > not choose as >> > Gregory chose. To be or not to be. It is in your capacity as Judas >> > that you have chosen for me. The question >> > has been decided. Art must no longer exist to depict man, but to >> > invoke God. It is on the face of this chaos that >> > I brood. And on the same chaos printed, across the faces of these >> > hideous mimes of mine, your pale glyph. >> > The white illusion of bone and tissue, the firm cheekbones set in soft >> > plates of flesh, the pouting mouth, the >> > soft jawless head of the snake, the lips as delicate as the biscuit. >> > Lubra in the dark, and when the swords grow >> > up from Constantinople, marmoreal, caryatid, pupa of flesh growing >> > upward among the bones, carrying them >> > upward from the hip, irresistible leaven. The hills snooze on with the >> > liths of your fingers laid over them: the >> > sensitive calyx of the pelvis like the dish of land which holds our >> > sea, silent outside the house. All that is >> > dying in me in this fatal landscape, your mine among active things, >> > stone, shards, language, meteors, butter. >> > Nothing but the punic body, our essential traitor, which stifles me >> > with its pollens. Snore on, you winter sea, >> > there is no more in here than the seven hectic elements can offer me: >> > more than the fantasy of the third ocean, >> > dipping its brush among the molten colors, leaking down to the hot >> > magma of things. More. More. >> >> >> >> -- >> ******************************************** >> Charles L. Sligh >> Assistant Professor >> Department of English >> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga >> charles-sligh at utc.edu >> ******************************************** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > ________________________________ > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your > inbox. See how. > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > -- --------------------------------------- James Gifford, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of English and University Core Director School of English, Philosophy and Humanities University College: Arts, Sciences, Professional Studies Fairleigh Dickinson University, Vancouver Campus Voice: 604-648-4476 Fax: 604-648-4489 E-mail: gifford at fdu.edu http://alpha.fdu.edu/~jgifford 842 Cambie Street Vancouver, BC V6B 2P6 Canada From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Thu Jun 3 11:23:44 2010 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 11:23:44 -0700 Subject: [ilds] gnomic aorist In-Reply-To: <8812763C-299D-4FBE-AA59-E9AA09889FC4@earthlink.net> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <4C06A10F.4040504@utc.edu> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB081D@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <8812763C-299D-4FBE-AA59-E9AA09889FC4@earthlink.net> Message-ID: More than part of Durrell's style, I'd say it's part of Eliot's style and formal vision, which he got from Pound, and Durrell got from him... That lineage, however, strikes me a discomfited in Durrell, and hence Cavafy had to become the city poet, thereby displacing Eliot to some degree, or at least distracting us. Does our gnomic aorist discussion perhaps point to why Durrell's touch stone for Eliot was Burnt Norton? I think too of "The Green Man" (1940): .... Four small nouns I put to pasture, Lambs of cloud on a green paper. .... One great verb I dip in ink for the tortoise who carries the earth: A grammar of fate like the map of China, Or as wrinkles sit in the palm of a girl. I enter my poem like a son's house. The ancient thought is: nothing will change. But the nouns are back in the bottle, I ache and she is warm, was warm, is warm. ---- Part of why I don't read Durrell for character (kinda like reading Woolf for plot...) is that I see this play between texts as the real 'character' involved. I think Durrell was much more concerned with the texture of his work and its textuality than he was with depicting genuine human dramas. He tried characters on in /Pied Piper of Lovers/ and only really managed one -- whether that's his weakness or disinterest, I don't know, but once /Panic Spring/ opens, there's a change, and the genuine human drama matters less. I'd look to the poetry for that instead. Durrell was always after Miller about form, and Miller was doing the opposite with Durrell over character. That dispute is telling for both. I should also note, by form I don't mean how many books and in what relation they exist to each other (a quartet vs. a quincunx, etc...) but more how they textually function, such as in the take off from Eliot, the notebook recuperations of materials, the repetitions, or the simple word, phrase, or object repetitions across works. Durrell's characters spend a lot of time "telling" us various crazy or high flown things, but the texts "show" something different formally. That's what draws me to Durrell, not self-identifying with Darley or the cardboard characters of the books that followed after that, nor the Gothics who preceded him... Cheers, James On 3 June 2010 09:03, Bruce Redwine wrote: > Yes. Gothic Eliot. James probably has many other examples. > > > > On Jun 2, 2010, at 6:11 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > >> " The blue-veined phthisic fingers are moist and languorous." >> >> It's a take off from Eliot. Durrell uses it more than once. >> >> Is this part of the Durrell style? > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > -- --------------------------------------- James Gifford, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of English and University Core Director School of English, Philosophy and Humanities University College: Arts, Sciences, Professional Studies Fairleigh Dickinson University, Vancouver Campus Voice: 604-648-4476 Fax: 604-648-4489 E-mail: gifford at fdu.edu http://alpha.fdu.edu/~jgifford 842 Cambie Street Vancouver, BC V6B 2P6 Canada From wilded at hotmail.com Thu Jun 3 11:31:58 2010 From: wilded at hotmail.com (david wilde) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 12:31:58 -0600 Subject: [ilds] gnomic aorist In-Reply-To: References: , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net>, <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, , <4C06A10F.4040504@utc.edu>, , Message-ID: Hi James. I took a quick Modern Greek course with the Orthodox Greek community here in Albuquerque one recent (about 6 years recent) Christmas holiday and I can tell you that as far as I am aware according to my month-long crash-course the instructor (an engineer) told us that the Greek government changed the grammar legally making it almost another 'read' language-landscape than the attic. I seem to recall those antique aspects such as the 'gnomic-aorist' were not now available in the greek modern form. You could always call the Greek Embassy! Cheers. david wilde > Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 11:07:42 -0700 > From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Subject: Re: [ilds] gnomic aorist > > As it happens, I have a piece appearing in /jml: Journal of Modern > Literature/ later this summer on the politics of Durrell's early > interactions with the English Surrealist crowd, in many respects via > Miller's ties in Paris. > > I think you're right about the grammatical experimentations of Stein > and Breton coming to LD via Miller, and they did expressly invite > contributions to /Booster/ from Stein (the letter's in Victoria). > > I'd planning last term to teach /The Black Book/ beside Beckett's > /Murphy/, but the gawds of the book industry distributors conspired > against me. Nonetheless, there's something of an English surrealist > moment running from 1934-45 with Gascoyne displacing Beckett as the > translator and the mutual publication networks that rapidly spread > from Corfu and Cairo to California... I recently discovered that > production of Durrell's /The Black Book/ got as far as proofs for the > Circle Editions coming out of Berkeley in the 1940s (Miller was tied > to the anarchist Circle there via Rexroth and Leite, and they did > bring out Durrell's /Zero and Asylum in the Snow/ at that time, among > other quasi-surrealist avant garde works). > > By Durrell's claims in his letters, he'd begun drafting /The Black > Book/ as early as 1935 when he wrapped up the proofs for /Pied Piper > of Lovers/ on Corfu. While most of those mss. aren't available, I'd > speculate on the process of learning Greek as being integrated over > time, though he'd already had some Ancient Greek training while in > England. > > Can any of our Modern Greek speakers on the list confirm whether or > not Modern Greek has the gnomic aorist? I know it has only one past > tense, and I don't believe it carries a distinct gnomic mood anymore, > right? If that's the case, this wasn't new knowledge for LD when he > moved to Greece -- he's already had it in school. > > Cheers, > James > > On 2 June 2010 17:32, david wilde wrote: > > Black Book (1937) definitely set me thinking and taking Classical Greek > > (Scott-Liddle) grammar to discover the 'true- meaning' of the aorist - > > gnomic and otherwise which led me to discover the horror Durrell suffered in > > his many guises as a Public School (Private in the UK system) student in > > many a school setting of classical languages and history. This literary gem > > (Black Book) made possible by a transatlantic understanding between Durrell > > and Henry Miller. Miller advocated the use and misuse I suspect of the > > radical and irrational usage of grammar previously offered by the likes of > > Gertrude Stein (Ida) to peform a self-reflecting surreal drama. > > Notwithsatnding Andre Breton etc and the 'Pataphysique' art of Henry > > Miller's pre-WWII Paris. Amen. > > > > > > > > > > > >> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:21:03 -0400 > >> From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu > >> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > >> Subject: [ilds] gnomic aorist > > > >> > >> Bruce Redwine wrote: > >> > Durrell, however, definitely likes /gnomic;/ he advocates a gnomic > >> > style somewhere. Whether he was influenced by Classical or possibly > >> > Modern Greek is a very interesting question, which could fall under > >> > that rubric of Durrell's diction, previously discussed. > >> > > >> > >> Cf. /The Black Book/: > >> > >> > Not even the phenomenon of Grace disturbed my life as much as that > >> > glimpse of the social mysteries. Horses > >> > sweat, but Grace perspires; very delicately on the smooth flesh, on > >> > the thin flanks, under the tiny > >> > undernourished breasts. The blue-veined phthisic fingers are moist and > >> > languorous. But why the present > >> > tense? For Grace is no more; no more the street girl who sat, hugging > >> > her knees, and staring at the empty > >> > wallpaper. Shall we write of her in the gnomic aorist? Shall we invest > >> > her with an epitaph? She would not > >> > understand it. She understood nothing. She seemed not to hear. You > >> > could speak to her, sing to her, dance > >> > before her, and the distances she contemplated were not diminished by > >> > one inch. > >> > >> > Here, it is real enough the stage on which I re-create this chronicle > >> > of the English death. There is Bach > >> > playing in the roars of the wind, the piercing slatterns of the rain. > >> > There is you dancing, and the million yous > >> > who persist in matter, echo, weep, cry, exult in flower powder, > >> > smaragd, Italy, moon, veins of rock. There is > >> > the cadenza of flesh here naked, and the you who run to the conclusion > >> > of autumn, selfless and melancholy, or > >> > smolder on the beach savagely. in all particulars of the body you are > >> > working, in the dark sump of the vagina, > >> > brewing vegetable history, sowing continents in whom I am the reaper; > >> > in the dusty sandals or the naked toes. > >> > It is forced upon me to write of you always in the gnomic aorist. For > >> > this is the new vocabulary which I am > >> > learning with ease. I am beginning my agony in the garden and there > >> > are too many words, and too many things to put into words. in the > >> > fantastic proscenium of the ego, when I begin my soliloquy, I shall > >> > not choose as > >> > Gregory chose. To be or not to be. It is in your capacity as Judas > >> > that you have chosen for me. The question > >> > has been decided. Art must no longer exist to depict man, but to > >> > invoke God. It is on the face of this chaos that > >> > I brood. And on the same chaos printed, across the faces of these > >> > hideous mimes of mine, your pale glyph. > >> > The white illusion of bone and tissue, the firm cheekbones set in soft > >> > plates of flesh, the pouting mouth, the > >> > soft jawless head of the snake, the lips as delicate as the biscuit. > >> > Lubra in the dark, and when the swords grow > >> > up from Constantinople, marmoreal, caryatid, pupa of flesh growing > >> > upward among the bones, carrying them > >> > upward from the hip, irresistible leaven. The hills snooze on with the > >> > liths of your fingers laid over them: the > >> > sensitive calyx of the pelvis like the dish of land which holds our > >> > sea, silent outside the house. All that is > >> > dying in me in this fatal landscape, your mine among active things, > >> > stone, shards, language, meteors, butter. > >> > Nothing but the punic body, our essential traitor, which stifles me > >> > with its pollens. Snore on, you winter sea, > >> > there is no more in here than the seven hectic elements can offer me: > >> > more than the fantasy of the third ocean, > >> > dipping its brush among the molten colors, leaking down to the hot > >> > magma of things. More. More. > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> ******************************************** > >> Charles L. Sligh > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of English > >> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > >> charles-sligh at utc.edu > >> ******************************************** > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> ILDS mailing list > >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your > > inbox. See how. > > _______________________________________________ > > ILDS mailing list > > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > > > > > -- > --------------------------------------- > James Gifford, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor of English and University Core Director > School of English, Philosophy and Humanities > University College: Arts, Sciences, Professional Studies > Fairleigh Dickinson University, Vancouver Campus > Voice: 604-648-4476 > Fax: 604-648-4489 > E-mail: gifford at fdu.edu > http://alpha.fdu.edu/~jgifford > > 842 Cambie Street > Vancouver, BC > V6B 2P6 Canada > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100603/f2ca30b3/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 3 13:24:21 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 13:24:21 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Finally (2) In-Reply-To: References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB07FE@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <6BE56AE2-46E4-4BA4-9C84-3E257C92D9A9@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0807@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0818@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> <8AB45ECE-1191-40D0-BB1C-58144F057E2A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <135AA7BB-555E-4112-82D9-29287D202CD4@earthlink.net> James, Thanks for the detailed response. I'll answer interlinearly. On Jun 2, 2010, at 3:35 PM, James Gifford wrote: > Hey Bruce, > > I think the timeless quality of the gnomic aorist is the crucial > element, but the aphoristic component could be significant as well. > It's easy to forget that his last attempt at a novel was intended to > be entirely in asides or aphorisms. "Timeless quality," yes, but timelessness in the context of a past tense. That's what intrigues me about the Greek gnomic aorist. I'm reminded of Faulkner's famous line in Requiem for a Nun: "The past is never dead. It's not even past." I don't think Bill knew any Greek, but that's the spirit of the gnomic aorist. > /The Black Book/ was first published in 1938 but was in large part > drafted as early at 1935 and the start of 1936 (not 1977 -- Faber > edition?). Yes. The Faber paperback, 1977. > > But, I do think we've wandered a bit from David Wilde's suggestion > that we attend to Durrell's sense of time. David, where were you > wanting to take us? I'm intrigued... Like Cavafy and many others, but especially Cavafy, Durrell is saturated in the past. He needs, as Cavafy was quoted a saying a while back on this list, "to falsify with time." I think that's what enabled him to write the Quartet and situate it in Alexandria, a place he hated in the present, when he lived there. Durrell love of the past, however, I would not call archaeological. I don't see him wandering through ruins and museums dreaming about past cultures and civilizations. The Quartet is in Egypt, but I see very little of Ancient Egypt in the Quartet, except for a dash of atmosphere here and there. No extended visits to the Pyramids or Karnak, as in Olivia Manning. So, Durrell's not infected with Romantic Hellenism. Rather, Mediterranean and Classical cultures seem to serve as a backdrop to his own reveries. He'll sit down on some broken Greek column and use that as a kind of ouija board to dream about his own past. > > My sense of the subsequent addition of "in time" to the contradiction > of truth is partly the structure of the Quartet itself as a formal > work as well as a more mystical notion of the nunc stans, to which > Durrell also refers a few times. Nunc stans? The eternal now/moment? Citation, please. > Both notions would turn attention > back to Billy's comment on Darley's lack of reaction -- to that I can > only say, Durrell doesn't really have any characters, does he? I guess you mean his characters (who are very memorable, perhaps too memorable) don't have any character (which is an interesting idea). Again, why? I go for a psychological interpretation of the author himself, previously stated and rejected. > He says so overtly in /Tunc/ & /Nunquam/, but I think it applies to the > Quartet as well. Charles might be able to comment on the mss. more, > but to my understanding, the character identities are fairly flexible. > For the Quintet notebooks, things are often written without a > character, which he'd simply add while typing it up. The Quintet is > expressly "a book full of spare parts of other books, of characters > left over from other lives, all circulating in each other?s > bloodstreams?. Be ye members of one another" (693). He was also very > keen on D.H. Lawrence's notions of allotropic identity in the novel > from the mid-1930s onward, so a stable character wasn't really a part > of his oeuvre at any point, in my opinion. While an interesting topic, I have great difficulty visualizing an "allotropic identity" (which I take to mean "multiple identities") in a normal personality. Abnormal personalities, e.g., schizophrenics, are another matter. Now, the human personality is a very complex entity. We all have different social roles and conflicting drives, but all that doesn't mean we don't have a stable core, which defines the "self." I think DHL's idea of the "unstable ego" went away with Freud's fall from grace. Then there's the Buddhist notion of the "self" being a fiction, which is something else to consider. How all this applies to Durrell's writings, I don't have the foggiest. I would like to see someone fully explain and illustrate how the idea of "allotropic identity" pertains to LGD. Examples, please. > > I'd also hesitate over a directly link between Darley and Durrell. > Durrell voiced his identification most overtly with Pursewards, and > while Darley shares many of LD's traits and experiences, as well as > his initials, he's also quite clearly a different bloke. Apart from > the slippage between an author, a narrator, and a character, I don't > think Darley would stand up as either a hero or an authorial voice in > this instance. Maybe I'm getting too old, but are there many pure authorial spokesmen/spokeswomen in English literature? Possibly Knightley in Emma or Marlow in Conrad's fiction. Authors tend to divide aspects of their personalities among various characters, obviously. Maybe this is what Keats was getting at by his notion of the "camelion poet." So there are many "links." The Quartet is a kind of Bildungsroman. The fact that Darley begins and ends four novels, that he is a developing artist, that he suffers and endures, that he is the main character through which events unfold or get reported, that he gets his just deserts, that he surely ends up with the beautiful girl, that he is the person who finally has "the whole universe" give him a "nudge" ? all that indicates to me that he has a close and special relationship with his author and is deserving of being called a "hero" or spokesman, for all his faults and however qualified you want to define those terms. > > I'd also avoid the Durrell/Gregory elision. Durrell's pretty clear in > his disapproval of Gregory, to whom he gave the name Herbert at the > same time as he was derogating Herbert Read to Miller. If there's a > Durrell figure in that novel, it's clearly Lawrence Lucifer rather > than Death Gregory, though again there are traits of Durrell in both > of them as well as others. Durrell does appear as a character in the > novel as well when he lets folks foolishly borrow his car... I defer to your judgment. The Black Book is not a novel I much enjoy or admire. Best, Bruce > > Cheers, > James > > On 2 June 2010 13:16, Bruce Redwine wrote: >> Let me be pedantic. English doesn't have the exact equivalent of the Greek >> "gnomic aorist," so if you want to capture the sense of the Greek aorist, a >> past tense, you have to use the English present. John Lyons, a British >> semanticist, gives examples of "gnomic" expressions in English ("It never >> rains but it pours"), and they're all in the present (Semantics, II, 681 >> [1977]). >> Durrell, on the other hand, has his own special usage of "gnomic aorist." >> Charles has provided passages from The Black Book (1977), where >> Durrell/Gregory asks, "Shall we write of her in the gnomic aorist?" (42) and >> later, "It is forced upon me to write of you always in the gnomic aorist" >> (243). Well, this is clearly impossible, since English has no such tense; >> moreover, these passages are in the present. But Durrell is breaking new >> ground, perhaps "Heraldic," and learning a "new vocabulary," so this fits in >> nicely. >> I believe that here you can see Durrell being influenced by his study of >> Greek on Corfu and learning new ways to deal with Time. I also wonder if >> Durrell latched onto "gnomic" for personal reasons, the word being directly >> related to gnome. >> >> Bruce >> >> On Jun 2, 2010, at 11:44 AM, James Gifford wrote: >> >> Durrell describes the Gnomic Aorist in his letters to Henry Miller >> while describing /The Black Book/ in conjunction with the historic >> present (I'm annotating things at the moment and stumbled over this >> just a few days ago...). It's closely tied to his notion of the >> Heraldic Universe, likely in early 1937. Someone with a copy of the >> letters handy may want to look up the actual passage. >> >> It's an ongoing concept for Durrell, and while that one statement is >> in the present tense (truth *is*), I don't think we should dismiss >> David's idea. It rings of the truth to my ear... >> >> Cheers, >> James >> >> On 2 June 2010 11:12, Bruce Redwine wrote: >> >> "Gnomic aorist" usually applies to Attic Greek. Dunno if Modern Greek has >> >> that tense. From my very little Greek, I understand the "gnomic aorist" to >> >> be a past tense, the aorist (i.e., with the sense of completion) that >> >> represents some truth. As the venerable H. W. Smyth says, in Greek Grammar >> >> (1956), "The aorist may express a general truth. The aorist simply states a >> >> past occurrence and leaves the reader to draw the inference from a concrete >> >> case that what has occurred once is typical of what often occurs" (sec. >> >> 1931). The aphorism, "Truth is what most contradicts itself in time," is in >> >> the present tense, not the past. Gnomic, yes; aorist, no. Durrell, >> >> however, definitely likes gnomic; he advocates a gnomic style somewhere. >> >> Whether he was influenced by Classical or possibly Modern Greek is a very >> >> interesting question, which could fall under that rubric of Durrell's >> >> diction, previously discussed. >> >> Bruce >> >> >> On Jun 2, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: >> >> And don't let us forget the 'gnomic aorist' either in this typically >> >> provocative Durrellian sentence and the cleverly disguised use of his ever >> >> enigmatically and yet precisely ambiguous constantly shifting sand-dune-like >> >> metaphor of the greek infinitive for 'duration'. >> >> David, could you unpack this for US? For me, abyway. >> >> Bill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100603/f39ee161/attachment.html From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Thu Jun 3 13:38:43 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 16:38:43 -0400 Subject: [ilds] deserving of being called a "hero" or spokesman Message-ID: <4C0812D3.2010806@utc.edu> > The fact that Darley begins and ends four novels, that he is a > developing artist, that he suffers and endures, that he is the main > character through which events unfold or get reported, that he gets > his just deserts, that he surely ends up with the beautiful girl, that > he is the person who finally has "the whole universe" give him a > "nudge" ? all that indicates to me that he has a close and special > relationship with his author and is deserving of being called a "hero" > or spokesman, for all his faults and however qualified you want to > define those terms. I think that Darley is a favorite spokesman and hero for first time and inexperienced readers of the /Quartet/. With time and vantage, Darley becomes incredibly tiring, and the books undermine him in a devastating sort of way. My first response would be to ask, "If we must look to literature for 'morals'--enough character development is found in /Pilgrim's Progress/ and /Robinson Crusoe/ to satisfy such appetites--and 'authors with messages'--/caveat lector/, setting aside Durrellian skepticism!--why would in the world would we patently overlook Pursewarden?" My second, more measured and patient response would be to chide myself, "Yes. Of course. The /Quartet/ occurs in the reader's time more than any other 'time.' The reader must have a Darley phase so that he or she might have a Pursewarden phase. Both phases matter. The only character development, in the end, is the development of the reader's character." C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 3 15:49:49 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 15:49:49 -0700 Subject: [ilds] deserving of being called a "hero" or spokesman In-Reply-To: <4C0812D3.2010806@utc.edu> References: <4C0812D3.2010806@utc.edu> Message-ID: <4D2C76A5-3D21-4BC9-9085-3CFA0D89F74C@earthlink.net> Interesting. But I wouldn't be so hard on young LGD. I don't find him all that tiresome. Being young and callow is part of growing up, and if M. Durrell is willing to stick with him as principal character in three novels, then critics and readers have to ask why that's the case. The ending to the Quartet is powerful, hopeful, and indeed saccharine, but I don't see irony undermining any of that. What's wrong with a little "tenderness," the kind that Pursewarden longed for ("tortured beyond endurance")? This ending is not like the closure to Vanity Fair, where Thackeray provides a "happy ending" on the quay at Ostend, where the hero finally gets his girl, and where the author simultaneously calls everything into question. That's a reversal of the happy-ending trope. I would say that the faults you ascribe to Darley are probably faults in Durrell's execution and your desire to place Pursewarden at the forefront of the story, which he quite simply isn't. I think one of Durrell's reasons for having Ludwig bump himself off is to allow Darley to grow and take control of the narrative. As you have said before, more or less, we have to take the Durrell we have, not the one we want. Bruce On Jun 3, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Charles Sligh wrote: >> The fact that Darley begins and ends four novels, that he is a >> developing artist, that he suffers and endures, that he is the main >> character through which events unfold or get reported, that he gets >> his just deserts, that he surely ends up with the beautiful girl, that >> he is the person who finally has "the whole universe" give him a >> "nudge" ? all that indicates to me that he has a close and special >> relationship with his author and is deserving of being called a "hero" >> or spokesman, for all his faults and however qualified you want to >> define those terms. > > I think that Darley is a favorite spokesman and hero for first time and > inexperienced readers of the /Quartet/. With time and vantage, Darley > becomes incredibly tiring, and the books undermine him in a devastating > sort of way. > > My first response would be to ask, "If we must look to literature for > 'morals'--enough character development is found in /Pilgrim's Progress/ > and /Robinson Crusoe/ to satisfy such appetites--and 'authors with > messages'--/caveat lector/, setting aside Durrellian skepticism!--why > would in the world would we patently overlook Pursewarden?" > > My second, more measured and patient response would be to chide myself, > "Yes. Of course. The /Quartet/ occurs in the reader's time more than any > other 'time.' The reader must have a Darley phase so that he or she > might have a Pursewarden phase. Both phases matter. The only character > development, in the end, is the development of the reader's character." > > C&c. > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100603/b9c70070/attachment.html From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Thu Jun 3 17:19:06 2010 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 20:19:06 -0400 Subject: [ilds] my time mainly Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0827@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> "Yes. Of course. The /Quartet/ occurs in the reader's time more than any other 'time.'" writes Charles. My dear Charles, what do you mean? Do you mean that the Q exists only when read? Or does it occur mainly, mostly, when being read? Of course, I'm taking this out of context, but I think the sentence alone is intriguing. Bill From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Thu Jun 3 17:43:37 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 20:43:37 -0400 Subject: [ilds] a "hero" or spokesman In-Reply-To: <4D2C76A5-3D21-4BC9-9085-3CFA0D89F74C@earthlink.net> References: <4C0812D3.2010806@utc.edu> <4D2C76A5-3D21-4BC9-9085-3CFA0D89F74C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4C084C39.3020706@utc.edu> Bruce Redwine wrote: > Interesting. But I wouldn't be so hard on young LGD. I don't find > him all that tiresome. Being young and callow is part of growing up, > and if M. Durrell is willing to stick with him as principal character > in three novels, then critics and readers have to ask why that's the > case. Absolutely agree. As my comment about myself "chiding" myself indicated, my previous post was autobiographical--about my past ways of reading Lawrence Durrell, all part of the shifting continuum of my personality. . . . > The ending to the /Quartet/ is powerful, hopeful, and indeed > saccharine, but I don't see irony undermining any of that. What's > wrong with a little "tenderness," the kind that Pursewarden longed for > ("tortured beyond endurance")? Nothing in some books--remember I am a Victorianist, and we Victorians do that better than anybody else. I cry every time I read about Davy Copperfield's stepfather beating him, and I teared up in class today reading about Maggie taking the boat out on the flooded floss to rescue Tom. I wonder about the place of this response within the different terms of the /Quartet/. . . . > I would say that the faults you ascribe to Darley are probably faults > in Durrell's execution and your desire to place Pursewarden at the > forefront of the story, which he quite simply isn't. I think one of > Durrell's reasons for having Ludwig bump himself off is to allow > Darley to grow and take control of the narrative. As you have said > before, more or less, we have to take the Durrell we have, not the one > we want. > I think I read the /Quartet/ in the opposite direction now. In the notebooks, Durrell achieves the character who became Arnauti/Darley (avatars of the same figure) before he conceives Pursewarden. In fact, my sense is that Pursewarden occurs because of Darley, as a necessary reflex to ward off Darley-ism. Every book its own critic &c. . . . Undiluted Darleyism would be insufferable, although I find many readers who remain loyal Darley-ists to the end. In the same way, an all-Pursewarden book would be too brutally ironic and smart to take. . . . C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Thu Jun 3 17:55:51 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 20:55:51 -0400 Subject: [ilds] my time mainly In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0827@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0827@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: <4C084F17.6030008@utc.edu> Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > "Yes. Of course. The /Quartet/ occurs in the reader's time more than any > other 'time.'" writes Charles. > > My dear Charles, what do you mean? Do you mean that the Q exists only when read? Or does it occur mainly, mostly, when being read? > > Of course, I'm taking this out of context, but I think the sentence alone is intriguing. > My dear Bill: Glad to intrigue with you any old time. . . . As a bibliographical artifact the /Quartet/ exists in a way we can and do document. Cloth, ink, paper, stitching, glue. . . . But yes no story and no poetry and no meaning occur until the moment when I open up the book and start reading, Bill opens up the book and starts reading, &c. And you and I make meaning out of the words in our time reading. Darley does not say anything or become anything without us there to move him along. And our re-readings are above all our autobiography, the record of our own development as characters. When the great thing that has been so long coming occurs and there are no more humans left on earth, the /Quartet/ will then no longer exist as a work of literature. The book's molecules, however, will persist quite contentedly--to paraphrase Tennyson's quip to the materialist George Eliot. . . . C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Thu Jun 3 18:39:27 2010 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 21:39:27 -0400 Subject: [ilds] my time mainly In-Reply-To: <4C084F17.6030008@utc.edu> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0827@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <4C084F17.6030008@utc.edu> Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0829@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> My god, you remind me of me. W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * * University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * OH 45221-0069 * * ________________________________________ From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Charles Sligh [Charles-Sligh at utc.edu] Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 8:55 PM To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Subject: Re: [ilds] my time mainly Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > "Yes. Of course. The /Quartet/ occurs in the reader's time more than any > other 'time.'" writes Charles. > > My dear Charles, what do you mean? Do you mean that the Q exists only when read? Or does it occur mainly, mostly, when being read? > > Of course, I'm taking this out of context, but I think the sentence alone is intriguing. > My dear Bill: Glad to intrigue with you any old time. . . . As a bibliographical artifact the /Quartet/ exists in a way we can and do document. Cloth, ink, paper, stitching, glue. . . . But yes no story and no poetry and no meaning occur until the moment when I open up the book and start reading, Bill opens up the book and starts reading, &c. And you and I make meaning out of the words in our time reading. Darley does not say anything or become anything without us there to move him along. And our re-readings are above all our autobiography, the record of our own development as characters. When the great thing that has been so long coming occurs and there are no more humans left on earth, the /Quartet/ will then no longer exist as a work of literature. The book's molecules, however, will persist quite contentedly--to paraphrase Tennyson's quip to the materialist George Eliot. . . . C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Thu Jun 3 19:28:06 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 22:28:06 -0400 Subject: [ilds] a "hero" or spokesman In-Reply-To: <2F55C669-2791-4278-AD73-A2D0D4D2CF44@earthlink.net> References: <4C0812D3.2010806@utc.edu> <4D2C76A5-3D21-4BC9-9085-3CFA0D89F74C@earthlink.net> <4C084C39.3020706@utc.edu> <2F55C669-2791-4278-AD73-A2D0D4D2CF44@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4C0864B6.7060503@utc.edu> Bruce Redwine wrote: > Charles, > > I too cry over Maggie and Tom. We should all empty our glasses of wine and cry at the passing of Durrell's Alexandria, which has truly refunded itself into memory. > > > I'll be there. Actually, I have the two finger glass at hand right here and now, so /ave atque vale/. . . . I do not have a sister, but Maggie will always be my sister. C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 3 19:17:34 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 19:17:34 -0700 Subject: [ilds] a "hero" or spokesman In-Reply-To: <4C084C39.3020706@utc.edu> References: <4C0812D3.2010806@utc.edu> <4D2C76A5-3D21-4BC9-9085-3CFA0D89F74C@earthlink.net> <4C084C39.3020706@utc.edu> Message-ID: <2F55C669-2791-4278-AD73-A2D0D4D2CF44@earthlink.net> Charles, I too cry over Maggie and Tom. We should all empty our glasses of wine and cry at the passing of Durrell's Alexandria, which has truly refunded itself into memory. Bruce On Jun 3, 2010, at 5:43 PM, Charles Sligh wrote: > Bruce Redwine wrote: >> Interesting. But I wouldn't be so hard on young LGD. I don't find >> him all that tiresome. Being young and callow is part of growing up, >> and if M. Durrell is willing to stick with him as principal character >> in three novels, then critics and readers have to ask why that's the >> case. > Absolutely agree. > > As my comment about myself "chiding" myself indicated, my previous post > was autobiographical--about my past ways of reading Lawrence Durrell, > all part of the shifting continuum of my personality. . . . >> The ending to the /Quartet/ is powerful, hopeful, and indeed >> saccharine, but I don't see irony undermining any of that. What's >> wrong with a little "tenderness," the kind that Pursewarden longed for >> ("tortured beyond endurance")? > Nothing in some books--remember I am a Victorianist, and we Victorians > do that better than anybody else. I cry every time I read about Davy > Copperfield's stepfather beating him, and I teared up in class today > reading about Maggie taking the boat out on the flooded floss to rescue > Tom. I wonder about the place of this response within the different > terms of the /Quartet/. . . . >> I would say that the faults you ascribe to Darley are probably faults >> in Durrell's execution and your desire to place Pursewarden at the >> forefront of the story, which he quite simply isn't. I think one of >> Durrell's reasons for having Ludwig bump himself off is to allow >> Darley to grow and take control of the narrative. As you have said >> before, more or less, we have to take the Durrell we have, not the one >> we want. >> > I think I read the /Quartet/ in the opposite direction now. > > In the notebooks, Durrell achieves the character who became > Arnauti/Darley (avatars of the same figure) before he conceives > Pursewarden. In fact, my sense is that Pursewarden occurs because of > Darley, as a necessary reflex to ward off Darley-ism. Every book its > own critic &c. . . . > > Undiluted Darleyism would be insufferable, although I find many readers > who remain loyal Darley-ists to the end. In the same way, an > all-Pursewarden book would be too brutally ironic and smart to take. . . . > > C&c. > From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Fri Jun 4 08:13:26 2010 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 11:13:26 -0400 Subject: [ilds] deserving of being called a "hero" or spokesman In-Reply-To: <4D2C76A5-3D21-4BC9-9085-3CFA0D89F74C@earthlink.net> References: <4C0812D3.2010806@utc.edu>, <4D2C76A5-3D21-4BC9-9085-3CFA0D89F74C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB082D@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> I think one of Durrell's reasons for having Ludwig bump himself off is to allow Darley to grow and take control of the narrative. As you have said before, more or less, we have to take the Durrell we have, not the one we want. You write as if Pursewardem is a real person, and as if Durell has no control over the narrative. Durrell could have sent P to Argentina rather than offing him. Writers don't "allow." They "control" their medium.That's one of the differences between life and art. Bill From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 4 09:03:25 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 09:03:25 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Nits In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB082D@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: <4C0812D3.2010806@utc.edu>, <4D2C76A5-3D21-4BC9-9085-3CFA0D89F74C@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB082D@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: <2B027685-0727-4D04-AD08-3464C36AFBB3@earthlink.net> Bill, You're nitpicking, but I'm glad we agree. Bruce On Jun 4, 2010, at 8:13 AM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > I think one of Durrell's reasons for having Ludwig bump himself off is to allow Darley to grow and take control of the narrative. As you have said before, more or less, we have to take the Durrell we have, not the one we want. > > You write as if Pursewardem is a real person, and as if Durell has no control over the narrative. > > Durrell could have sent P to Argentina rather than offing him. > > Writers don't "allow." They "control" their medium.That's one of the differences between life and art. > > Bill From samanthabrune at gmx.com Fri Jun 4 14:08:08 2010 From: samanthabrune at gmx.com (Samantha Brune) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 23:08:08 +0200 Subject: [ilds] my time mainly Message-ID: <20100604210808.262130@gmx.com> When Adam delved and Eve spanned, who was then the academic? ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Sligh Sent: 06/04/10 01:55 AM To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Subject: Re: [ilds] my time mainly Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > "Yes. Of course. The /Quartet/ occurs in the reader's time more than any > other 'time.'" writes Charles. > > My dear Charles, what do you mean? Do you mean that the Q exists only when read? Or does it occur mainly, mostly, when being read? > > Of course, I'm taking this out of context, but I think the sentence alone is intriguing. > My dear Bill: Glad to intrigue with you any old time. . . . As a bibliographical artifact the /Quartet/ exists in a way we can and do document. Cloth, ink, paper, stitching, glue. . . . But yes no story and no poetry and no meaning occur until the moment when I open up the book and start reading, Bill opens up the book and starts reading, &c. And you and I make meaning out of the words in our time reading. Darley does not say anything or become anything without us there to move him along. And our re-readings are above all our autobiography, the record of our own development as characters. When the great thing that has been so long coming occurs and there are no more humans left on earth, the /Quartet/ will then no longer exist as a work of literature. The book's molecules, however, will persist quite contentedly--to paraphrase Tennyson's quip to the materialist George Eliot. . . . C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100604/4cfb29a1/attachment.html From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Fri Jun 4 14:22:42 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 17:22:42 -0400 Subject: [ilds] my time mainly In-Reply-To: <20100604210808.262130@gmx.com> References: <20100604210808.262130@gmx.com> Message-ID: <4C096EA2.50003@utc.edu> Samantha Brune wrote: > > When Adam delved and Eve spanned, who was then the academic? > > By John Ball's Dream! Now that's the spirit of Blackheath. More pluck for the plonk--"/John the Miller grinds small, small, small/." C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 15:12:12 2010 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 15:12:12 -0700 Subject: [ilds] a "hero" or spokesman In-Reply-To: <4C0864B6.7060503@utc.edu> References: <4C0812D3.2010806@utc.edu> <4D2C76A5-3D21-4BC9-9085-3CFA0D89F74C@earthlink.net> <4C084C39.3020706@utc.edu> <2F55C669-2791-4278-AD73-A2D0D4D2CF44@earthlink.net> <4C0864B6.7060503@utc.edu> Message-ID: I still remember the first time I read /Mill on the Floss/ in a course with Mason Harris. I read Hardy's /Tess/ in the same summer, and both books sent me reeling through Eliot & Hardy. I only found Durrell later, and not in a course... I'd have to say the mother's fear of Tom & Maggie being "drownded" is closer to what I'd expect to find in a Durrell novel, not the tear-jerking sentiment at which the Victorians were so adept. I certainly don't read those two types of works in the same way nor with the same expectations, which I'm sure alters what I find. Later tonight I'll raise a glass to the untimely endings of all literary characters, wherever and whatever they may be. -James On 3 June 2010 19:28, Charles Sligh wrote: > Bruce Redwine wrote: >> Charles, >> >> I too cry over Maggie and Tom. ?We should all empty our glasses of wine and cry at the passing of Durrell's Alexandria, which has truly refunded itself into memory. >> >> >> > I'll be there. ?Actually, I have the two finger glass at hand right here > and now, so /ave atque vale/. . . . > > I do not have a sister, but Maggie will always be my sister. > > C&c. > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > -- --------------------------------------- James Gifford, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of English and University Core Director School of English, Philosophy and Humanities University College: Arts, Sciences, Professional Studies Fairleigh Dickinson University, Vancouver Campus Voice: 604-648-4476 Fax: 604-648-4489 E-mail: gifford at fdu.edu http://alpha.fdu.edu/~jgifford 842 Cambie Street Vancouver, BC V6B 2P6 Canada From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 15:22:36 2010 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 15:22:36 -0700 Subject: [ilds] my time mainly In-Reply-To: <4C096EA2.50003@utc.edu> References: <20100604210808.262130@gmx.com> <4C096EA2.50003@utc.edu> Message-ID: I have a lively image of Ball by Clifford Harper posted to the board over my desk... I'm still trying to riddle out how the politics of the unpolitical in Durrell's Heraldry might tie in with the tradition Harper yokes to Ball's Blackheath. I'm eager to hear more from Samantha. -J On 4 June 2010 14:22, Charles Sligh wrote: > Samantha Brune wrote: >> >> When Adam delved and Eve spanned, who was then the academic? >> >> > By John Ball's Dream! ?Now that's the spirit of Blackheath. > > More pluck for the plonk--"/John the Miller grinds small, small, small/." > > C&c. > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > -- --------------------------------------- James Gifford, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of English and University Core Director School of English, Philosophy and Humanities University College: Arts, Sciences, Professional Studies Fairleigh Dickinson University, Vancouver Campus Voice: 604-648-4476 Fax: 604-648-4489 E-mail: gifford at fdu.edu http://alpha.fdu.edu/~jgifford 842 Cambie Street Vancouver, BC V6B 2P6 Canada From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sat Jun 5 12:13:39 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 12:13:39 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Man in White Sharkskin Suit Message-ID: Admirers of Justine will recall she wears a sharkskin suit on one occasion. I just finished Lucette Lagnado's memoir of her family in Cairo (2008), Egypt during the 40s and 50s. It's very good. Aside from the fascinating story, she describes the old Cairo Durrell surely knew. There's even a balcony much like Cavafy's and Haag's. Bruce Sent from my iPhone From dtart at bigpond.net.au Sat Jun 5 17:57:23 2010 From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 10:57:23 +1000 Subject: [ilds] my time mainly References: <20100604210808.262130@gmx.com> Message-ID: <5268F5AF42CE4EE9A7556C87D2FDA0EE@MumandDad> Clearly Adam was the academic. When Eve tempted him with an apple, he fell for it, not seeing the true nature of the metaphor but thinking it was just a piece of fruit. As such he failed to evaluate the concept. David PS is it unethical to give a student 21 out of 20? 16 William Street Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au www.denisetart.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: Samantha Brune To: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu ; ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 7:08 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] my time mainly When Adam delved and Eve spanned, who was then the academic? ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Sligh Sent: 06/04/10 01:55 AM To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Subject: Re: [ilds] my time mainly Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > "Yes. Of course. The /Quartet/ occurs in the reader's time more than any > other 'time.'" writes Charles. > > My dear Charles, what do you mean? Do you mean that the Q exists only when read? Or does it occur mainly, mostly, when being read? > > Of course, I'm taking this out of context, but I think the sentence alone is intriguing. > My dear Bill: Glad to intrigue with you any old time. . . . As a bibliographical artifact the /Quartet/ exists in a way we can and do document. Cloth, ink, paper, stitching, glue. . . . But yes no story and no poetry and no meaning occur until the moment when I open up the book and start reading, Bill opens up the book and starts reading, &c. And you and I make meaning out of the words in our time reading. Darley does not say anything or become anything without us there to move him along. And our re-readings are above all our autobiography, the record of our own development as characters. When the great thing that has been so long coming occurs and there are no more humans left on earth, the /Quartet/ will then no longer exist as a work of literature. The book's molecules, however, will persist quite contentedly--to paraphrase Tennyson's quip to the materialist George Eliot. . . . C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100606/90c5084e/attachment.html From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Sun Jun 6 03:18:57 2010 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 12:18:57 +0200 Subject: [ilds] Man in White Sharkskin Suit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0B7611.8010106@interdesign.fr> Thanks Bruce. Sounds interesting. But she was born in 1956 so she couls little know the Cairo that LD knew. @+ Marc Le 05/06/10 21:13, Bruce Redwine a ?crit : > Lucette Lagnado From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 6 09:47:03 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 09:47:03 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Man in White Sharkskin Suit In-Reply-To: <4C0B7611.8010106@interdesign.fr> References: <4C0B7611.8010106@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: <4E9C9879-142E-4982-A6D3-524FBFCF3B91@earthlink.net> Marc, True, Lucette Lagnado ("Loulou") was born in 1956, but her memoir is mainly about her father, Leon Lagnado, who married her mother Edith in 1943. She was in her twenties, he in his forties. Lucette calls her father a "boulevardier" and reconstructs the culture and places of Old Cairo he frequented during the 1930s and 40s: the Shepheard's Hotel, Gropppi's Restaurant, and others. Although a devout Jew, Leon called himself an Arab, was fluent in Arabic, and preferred to wear a tarbush. The city then was cosmopolitan, multiethnic and multilingual, like Alexandria. The Lagnado family were Jews from Aleppo, primarily French speaking. French was Lucette's first language. Above all, the book is about a lost Jewish-Arab-Coptic world, one which Durrell surely knew a good deal about. Darley exclaims, "Beloved Alexandria!" Lucette Lagnado's lamentation is something like, "Beloved Cairo!" Bruce On Jun 6, 2010, at 3:18 AM, Marc Piel wrote: > Thanks Bruce. Sounds interesting. But she was born > in 1956 so she couls little know the Cairo that LD > knew. > @+ > Marc > > Le 05/06/10 21:13, Bruce Redwine a ?crit : >> Lucette Lagnado -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100606/085ab6a0/attachment.html From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Sun Jun 6 10:15:55 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 13:15:55 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Man in White Sharkskin Suit In-Reply-To: <4E9C9879-142E-4982-A6D3-524FBFCF3B91@earthlink.net> References: <4C0B7611.8010106@interdesign.fr> <4E9C9879-142E-4982-A6D3-524FBFCF3B91@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4C0BD7CB.9040905@utc.edu> Bruce Redwine wrote: > Marc, > > True, Lucette Lagnado ("Loulou") was born in 1956, but her memoir is > mainly about her father, Leon Lagnado, who married her mother Edith in > 1943. *** Lucette Lagnado, author of The Man in the White Sharkskin Suit, talks about her book in Cairo Egypt http://vimeo.com/10151234 *** Lucette Lagnado http://www.harpercollins.com/authors/29557/Lucette_Lagnado/index.aspx http://www.harpercollins.com/books/Man-White-Sharkskin-Suit-Lucette-Lagnado/?isbn=9780060822187?AA=index_authorIntro_29557 *** Out of Egypt By ALANA NEWHOUSE Published: August 12, 2007 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/books/review/Newhouse-t.html?ex=1344571200&en=15f09d3482a0665f&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 6 11:40:11 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 11:40:11 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Man in White Sharkskin Suit In-Reply-To: <4C0BD7CB.9040905@utc.edu> References: <4C0B7611.8010106@interdesign.fr> <4E9C9879-142E-4982-A6D3-524FBFCF3B91@earthlink.net> <4C0BD7CB.9040905@utc.edu> Message-ID: <72594629-B5A5-41E4-B9CA-652B6EA6852B@earthlink.net> Thanks, Charles. I hadn't seen Ms. Lagnado speak before. She's charming, no? She and Andre Aciman (Out of Egypt) are primarily writing about nostalgia within an Egyptian context. I wonder why neither mention or allude to Durrell. Aciman's omission in this regard seems to me particularly grevious. Bruce Sent from my iPhone On Jun 6, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Charles Sligh wrote: > Bruce Redwine wrote: >> Marc, >> >> True, Lucette Lagnado ("Loulou") was born in 1956, but her memoir is >> mainly about her father, Leon Lagnado, who married her mother Edith >> in >> 1943. > *** > > Lucette Lagnado, author of The Man in the White Sharkskin Suit, talks > about her book in Cairo Egypt > http://vimeo.com/10151234 > > *** > > Lucette Lagnado > http://www.harpercollins.com/authors/29557/Lucette_Lagnado/index.aspx > http://www.harpercollins.com/books/Man-White-Sharkskin-Suit-Lucette-Lagnado/?isbn=9780060822187?AA=index_authorIntro_29557 > > *** > > Out of Egypt > By ALANA NEWHOUSE > Published: August 12, 2007 > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/books/review/Newhouse-t.html?ex=1344571200&en=15f09d3482a0665f&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss > > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Sun Jun 6 11:34:40 2010 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 20:34:40 +0200 Subject: [ilds] Man in White Sharkskin Suit In-Reply-To: <4E9C9879-142E-4982-A6D3-524FBFCF3B91@earthlink.net> References: <4C0B7611.8010106@interdesign.fr> <4E9C9879-142E-4982-A6D3-524FBFCF3B91@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4C0BEA40.4000700@interdesign.fr> Thanks Bruce and Charles. I have ordered a copy. Marc Le 06/06/10 18:47, Bruce Redwine a ?crit : > Marc, > > True, Lucette Lagnado ("Loulou") was born in 1956, but her memoir is > mainly about her father, Leon Lagnado, who married her mother Edith in > 1943. She was in her twenties, he in his forties. Lucette calls her > father a "boulevardier" and reconstructs the culture and places of Old > Cairo he frequented during the 1930s and 40s: the Shepheard's Hotel, > Gropppi's Restaurant, and others. Although a devout Jew, Leon called > himself an Arab, was fluent in Arabic, and preferred to wear a tarbush. > The city then was cosmopolitan, multiethnic and multilingual, like > Alexandria. The Lagnado family were Jews from Aleppo, primarily French > speaking. French was Lucette's first language. Above all, the book is > about a lost Jewish-Arab-Coptic world, one which Durrell surely knew a > good deal about./ /Darley exclaims, "Beloved Alexandria!" Lucette > Lagnado's lamentation is something like, "Beloved Cairo!" > > > Bruce > > > > On Jun 6, 2010, at 3:18 AM, Marc Piel wrote: > >> Thanks Bruce. Sounds interesting. But she was born >> in 1956 so she couls little know the Cairo that LD >> knew. >> @+ >> Marc >> >> Le 05/06/10 21:13, Bruce Redwine a ?crit : >>> Lucette Lagnado > > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From james.d.gifford at gmail.com Sun Jun 6 12:17:00 2010 From: james.d.gifford at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 12:17:00 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Man in White Sharkskin Suit In-Reply-To: <72594629-B5A5-41E4-B9CA-652B6EA6852B@earthlink.net> References: <4C0B7611.8010106@interdesign.fr> <4E9C9879-142E-4982-A6D3-524FBFCF3B91@earthlink.net> <4C0BD7CB.9040905@utc.edu> <72594629-B5A5-41E4-B9CA-652B6EA6852B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4C0BF42C.2060801@gmail.com> Very few critical works have mentioned Durrell and Aciman together as well: Porter, Roger J. "Autobiography, Exile, Home: The Egyptian Memoirs of Gini Alhadeff, Andr? Aciman, and Edward Said." /Biography/ 24.1 (2001): 302-313. (Mentions the Durrell conference, On Miracle Ground XI, in Corfu, numerous times.) Giovannucci, Perri. The Modernizing Mission: Literature and Development in North Africa. Diss. University of Miami, 2005. I suspect that the same way Durrell's Eliotic influences are displaced by the "Old Poet of the city," Aciman and Lagnado may be avoiding the elephant in the room... I've not read the book, but are there Durrellian allusions or influences, Bruce? Cheers, James On 06/06/10 11:40 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > Thanks, Charles. I hadn't seen Ms. Lagnado speak before. She's > charming, no? She and Andre Aciman (Out of Egypt) are primarily > writing about nostalgia within an Egyptian context. I wonder why > neither mention or allude to Durrell. Aciman's omission in this > regard seems to me particularly grevious. > > > Bruce > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 6, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Charles Sligh > wrote: > >> Bruce Redwine wrote: >>> Marc, >>> >>> True, Lucette Lagnado ("Loulou") was born in 1956, but her memoir is >>> mainly about her father, Leon Lagnado, who married her mother Edith >>> in >>> 1943. >> *** >> >> Lucette Lagnado, author of The Man in the White Sharkskin Suit, talks >> about her book in Cairo Egypt >> http://vimeo.com/10151234 >> >> *** >> >> Lucette Lagnado >> http://www.harpercollins.com/authors/29557/Lucette_Lagnado/index.aspx >> http://www.harpercollins.com/books/Man-White-Sharkskin-Suit-Lucette-Lagnado/?isbn=9780060822187?AA=index_authorIntro_29557 >> >> *** >> >> Out of Egypt >> By ALANA NEWHOUSE >> Published: August 12, 2007 >> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/books/review/Newhouse-t.html?ex=1344571200&en=15f09d3482a0665f&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss >> >> >> -- >> ******************************************** >> Charles L. Sligh >> Assistant Professor >> Department of English >> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga >> charles-sligh at utc.edu >> ******************************************** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 6 14:01:36 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 14:01:36 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Man in White Sharkskin Suit In-Reply-To: <4C0BF42C.2060801@gmail.com> References: <4C0B7611.8010106@interdesign.fr> <4E9C9879-142E-4982-A6D3-524FBFCF3B91@earthlink.net> <4C0BD7CB.9040905@utc.edu> <72594629-B5A5-41E4-B9CA-652B6EA6852B@earthlink.net> <4C0BF42C.2060801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1FC79B75-46C0-45B4-84D2-89BB29870509@earthlink.net> James, Lawrence Durrell put modern Alexandria on the map. I'm not discounting or belittling the work of Cavafy and Forster, but their very great contributions were simply not that well known prior to Durrell's magnum opus. In a sense, Durrell made his predecessors, whom he fully acknowledges, famous with respect to "The City." Look at the publishing history of Cavafy in English translation and Forster's two books on Alexandria ? the flood of Cavafy translations, new editions of Forster, and critical studies of the three, all those all start pouring out after the appearance of the Quartet. Give credit where credit is due, and that rightfully belongs to Lawrence Durrell. Now, in Out of Egypt (1994), Aciman has written a splendid memoir of his Sephardic roots in Alexandria (a memoir, by the way, which is slightly dishonest, for readers are led to believe it is factual but others claim is partly fictional, much in the way that Durrell invented people in his travel books). As you would expect from a specialist in French literature, Aciman is literary, and his book reads with the grace of fiction, but how he can clearly allude to Proust's Temps Perdu and not at least drop a hint of indebtedness to L. G. Durrell is beyond me. As I argue in my Arion article on Haag's work, Aciman wants to disassociate himself from the Alexandria of Cavafy, Forster, and Durrell. That's his choice, however. If he wants to be excluded from that great tradition, then so be it, although I believe in at least acknowledging those predecessors, whom he most certainly is aware of. Lucette Lugnado's book is about Cairo and her family. Although well written, I would not call it literary, certainly not in the way that Aciman's is. I would not be too surprised were she to say she hadn't read the Quartet. After all, she was born when Justine was being written. But you're right, Durrell is the "elephant in the room," and she may have felt intimidated by his omnipresence. Hence, no direct allusions. The influence, if such, is in the sense of Cairo as a "place" of special memories and experiences long gone. Her use of the balcony of her family home on Malaka Nazli reminds me of similar tropes in Cavafy and Haag. She mentions that balcony during the video of her reading in Cairo. Read her book. It's a moving experience. Bruce On Jun 6, 2010, at 12:17 PM, James Gifford wrote: > Very few critical works have mentioned Durrell and Aciman together as well: > > Porter, Roger J. "Autobiography, Exile, Home: The Egyptian Memoirs of > Gini Alhadeff, Andr? Aciman, and Edward Said." /Biography/ 24.1 (2001): > 302-313. (Mentions the Durrell conference, On Miracle Ground XI, in > Corfu, numerous times.) > > Giovannucci, Perri. The Modernizing Mission: Literature and Development > in North Africa. Diss. University of Miami, 2005. > > I suspect that the same way Durrell's Eliotic influences are displaced > by the "Old Poet of the city," Aciman and Lagnado may be avoiding the > elephant in the room... I've not read the book, but are there > Durrellian allusions or influences, Bruce? > > Cheers, > James > > > On 06/06/10 11:40 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >> Thanks, Charles. I hadn't seen Ms. Lagnado speak before. She's >> charming, no? She and Andre Aciman (Out of Egypt) are primarily >> writing about nostalgia within an Egyptian context. I wonder why >> neither mention or allude to Durrell. Aciman's omission in this >> regard seems to me particularly grevious. >> >> >> Bruce >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jun 6, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Charles Sligh >> wrote: >> >>> Bruce Redwine wrote: >>>> Marc, >>>> >>>> True, Lucette Lagnado ("Loulou") was born in 1956, but her memoir is >>>> mainly about her father, Leon Lagnado, who married her mother Edith >>>> in >>>> 1943. >>> *** >>> >>> Lucette Lagnado, author of The Man in the White Sharkskin Suit, talks >>> about her book in Cairo Egypt >>> http://vimeo.com/10151234 >>> >>> *** >>> >>> Lucette Lagnado >>> http://www.harpercollins.com/authors/29557/Lucette_Lagnado/index.aspx >>> http://www.harpercollins.com/books/Man-White-Sharkskin-Suit-Lucette-Lagnado/?isbn=9780060822187?AA=index_authorIntro_29557 >>> >>> *** >>> >>> Out of Egypt >>> By ALANA NEWHOUSE >>> Published: August 12, 2007 >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/books/review/Newhouse-t.html?ex=1344571200&en=15f09d3482a0665f&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100606/3ff56fd0/attachment.html From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Sun Jun 6 17:58:22 2010 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 20:58:22 -0400 Subject: [ilds] my time mainly In-Reply-To: <5268F5AF42CE4EE9A7556C87D2FDA0EE@MumandDad> References: <20100604210808.262130@gmx.com>, <5268F5AF42CE4EE9A7556C87D2FDA0EE@MumandDad> Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0840@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Enobarbus (writes Shakespeare) refers to Cleo as an Egyptian "dish." I will not tell you what I think of this metaphor. All of my grades are dishonest. Give students what they deserve and none would escape whipping. Bill W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * * University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * OH 45221-0069 * * ________________________________________ From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Denise Tart & David Green [dtart at bigpond.net.au] Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 8:57 PM To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Subject: Re: [ilds] my time mainly Clearly Adam was the academic. When Eve tempted him with an apple, he fell for it, not seeing the true nature of the metaphor but thinking it was just a piece of fruit. As such he failed to evaluate the concept. David PS is it unethical to give a student 21 out of 20? 16 William Street Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au www.denisetart.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: Samantha Brune To: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu ; ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 7:08 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] my time mainly When Adam delved and Eve spanned, who was then the academic? ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Sligh Sent: 06/04/10 01:55 AM To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Subject: Re: [ilds] my time mainly Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > "Yes. Of course. The /Quartet/ occurs in the reader's time more than any > other 'time.'" writes Charles. > > My dear Charles, what do you mean? Do you mean that the Q exists only when read? Or does it occur mainly, mostly, when being read? > > Of course, I'm taking this out of context, but I think the sentence alone is intriguing. > My dear Bill: Glad to intrigue with you any old time. . . . As a bibliographical artifact the /Quartet/ exists in a way we can and do document. Cloth, ink, paper, stitching, glue. . . . But yes no story and no poetry and no meaning occur until the moment when I open up the book and start reading, Bill opens up the book and starts reading, &c. And you and I make meaning out of the words in our time reading. Darley does not say anything or become anything without us there to move him along. And our re-readings are above all our autobiography, the record of our own development as characters. When the great thing that has been so long coming occurs and there are no more humans left on earth, the /Quartet/ will then no longer exist as a work of literature. The book's molecules, however, will persist quite contentedly--to paraphrase Tennyson's quip to the materialist George Eliot. . . . C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds ________________________________ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 6 18:43:25 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:43:25 -0700 Subject: [ilds] my time mainly In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0840@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: <20100604210808.262130@gmx.com>, <5268F5AF42CE4EE9A7556C87D2FDA0EE@MumandDad> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C4201C398FB0840@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: <2581FA00-2DB6-46D5-ABDD-804A6540ECC7@earthlink.net> Enobarbus lives and fed Shakespeare all his lines. BR On Jun 6, 2010, at 5:58 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > Enobarbus (writes Shakespeare) refers to Cleo as an Egyptian "dish." I will not tell you what I think of this metaphor. > > All of my grades are dishonest. Give students what they deserve and none would escape whipping. > > Bill > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * * > University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * > OH 45221-0069 * * > ________________________________________ > From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Denise Tart & David Green [dtart at bigpond.net.au] > Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 8:57 PM > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Subject: Re: [ilds] my time mainly > > Clearly Adam was the academic. When Eve tempted him with an apple, he fell for it, not seeing the true nature of the metaphor but thinking it was just a piece of fruit. As such he failed to evaluate the concept. > > David > > PS is it unethical to give a student 21 out of 20? > > 16 William Street > Marrickville NSW 2204 > +61 2 9564 6165 > 0412 707 625 > dtart at bigpond.net.au > www.denisetart.com.au > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Samantha Brune > To: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu ; ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 7:08 AM > Subject: Re: [ilds] my time mainly > > > When Adam delved and Eve spanned, who was then the academic? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Charles Sligh > > Sent: 06/04/10 01:55 AM > > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > > Subject: Re: [ilds] my time mainly > > > Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > "Yes. Of course. The /Quartet/ occurs in the reader's time more than any > other 'time.'" writes Charles. > > My dear Charles, what do you mean? Do you mean that the Q exists only when read? Or does it occur mainly, mostly, when being read? > > Of course, I'm taking this out of context, but I think the sentence alone is intriguing. > My dear Bill: Glad to intrigue with you any old time. . . . As a bibliographical artifact the /Quartet/ exists in a way we can and do document. Cloth, ink, paper, stitching, glue. . . . But yes no story and no poetry and no meaning occur until the moment when I open up the book and start reading, Bill opens up the book and starts reading, &c. And you and I make meaning out of the words in our time reading. Darley does not say anything or become anything without us there to move him along. And our re-readings are above all our autobiography, the record of our own development as characters. W! > hen the great thing that has been so long coming occurs and there are no more humans left on earth, the /Quartet/ will then no longer exist as a work of literature. The book's molecules, however, will persist quite contentedly--to paraphrase Tennyson's quip to the materialist George Eliot. . . . C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > ________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds