From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Thu Jan 28 08:36:44 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:36:44 -0500 Subject: [ilds] "the double darkness" Message-ID: <4B61BD1C.4010303@utc.edu> Dear List: Please see below for an interesting note on Edward Fenton, forwarded by Richard Pine. Below Richard's description, I have copied and pasted links to a Fenton obituary, the Fenton Papers, and information from the googlebooks account of the 1947 Doubleday printing. We would be happy to hear more from any who know more. C&c. **** **** > Edward Fenton's novel 'The Double Darkness' (Cresset Press 1948) was written in Athens in 1946. Two of the novel's 8 sections (the first and the last) bear epigraphs from the opening page of Prospero's Cell. The author and publishers acknowledge permission to quote in the cases of epigraphs from TS Eliot and Demetrios Capetanakis, but not from Durrell. LD possessed a copy of this book at least up to the time he left Cyprus. The copy was possibly sent to him in return for permission (but unacknowledged) to quote from Prospero's Cell. > **** **** > Edward Fenton, 78, A Children's Author Inspired by Greece > Published: January 5, 1996 >> http://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/05/nyregion/edward-fenton-78-a-children-s-author-inspired-by-greece.html?pagewanted=1 **** **** > EDWARD FENTON PAPERS > de Grummond Children's Literature Collection > The University of Southern Mississippi > http://www.lib.usm.edu/~degrum/html/research/findaids/DG0316f.html?DG0316b.html~mainFrame **** **** > Reviews > Editorial Review - Kirkus Reviews > A first novel by a writer whose short stories have already had > literary recognition. The talent here is distinct -- there is > a sharp sense of place, of mood, an imagery touched off by > realism. The story is concerned with Athens, after its > liberation, but still a fear-ridden, death-ridden city, and > with the lance corporal who takes on the identity of the Greek > he had not meant to kill. Wandering ... > More through the city, he spends a night with the effete, > effeminate Pavlides, escapes, and is finally rescued by Maro, > a girl, who takes him to a house harboring blinded soldiers, a > house of ""double darkness"". Falling in love with Maro, he > joins the anti-British underground of which she and her > brother are members. Eventually he loses her when all are > forced into hiding, and gains his final freedom as he ships > aboard a British vessel... A book for literary, perhaps, > rather than popular appreciation. > Less > Write review > More book information > Title The double darkness > Author Edward Fenton > Publisher Doubleday, 1947 > Length 301 pages > >> http://books.google.com/books?id=ZJ8wGQAACAAJ&dq=darkness+inauthor:%22Edward+Fenton%22&as_brr=0&ei=rLphS5G5O4bAMoLFlN0N&client=firefox-a&cd=1 -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu Jan 28 11:48:17 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:48:17 -0800 Subject: [ilds] "the double darkness" In-Reply-To: <4B61BD1C.4010303@utc.edu> References: <4B61BD1C.4010303@utc.edu> Message-ID: The obvious question, if I understand this comment. If Durrell did not give permission to quote from Prospero's Cell, why did the publisher, Cresset Press, allow Fenton to quote from PC? Also, perhaps LD didn't give permission because he didn't like the "anti-British" theme? Bruce On Jan 28, 2010, at 8:36 AM, Charles Sligh wrote: > Dear List: > > Please see below for an interesting note on Edward Fenton, forwarded by > Richard Pine. > > Below Richard's description, I have copied and pasted links to a Fenton > obituary, the Fenton Papers, and information from the googlebooks > account of the 1947 Doubleday printing. > > We would be happy to hear more from any who know more. C&c. > > **** > **** > >> Edward Fenton's novel 'The Double Darkness' (Cresset Press 1948) was written in Athens in 1946. Two of the novel's 8 sections (the first and the last) bear epigraphs from the opening page of Prospero's Cell. The author and publishers acknowledge permission to quote in the cases of epigraphs from TS Eliot and Demetrios Capetanakis, but not from Durrell. LD possessed a copy of this book at least up to the time he left Cyprus. The copy was possibly sent to him in return for permission (but unacknowledged) to quote from Prospero's Cell. >> > > **** > **** >> Edward Fenton, 78, A Children's Author Inspired by Greece >> Published: January 5, 1996 >>> http://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/05/nyregion/edward-fenton-78-a-children-s-author-inspired-by-greece.html?pagewanted=1 > > **** > **** >> EDWARD FENTON PAPERS >> de Grummond Children's Literature Collection >> The University of Southern Mississippi >> http://www.lib.usm.edu/~degrum/html/research/findaids/DG0316f.html?DG0316b.html~mainFrame > > > **** > **** > > >> Reviews >> Editorial Review - Kirkus Reviews >> A first novel by a writer whose short stories have already had >> literary recognition. The talent here is distinct -- there is >> a sharp sense of place, of mood, an imagery touched off by >> realism. The story is concerned with Athens, after its >> liberation, but still a fear-ridden, death-ridden city, and >> with the lance corporal who takes on the identity of the Greek >> he had not meant to kill. Wandering ... >> More through the city, he spends a night with the effete, >> effeminate Pavlides, escapes, and is finally rescued by Maro, >> a girl, who takes him to a house harboring blinded soldiers, a >> house of ""double darkness"". Falling in love with Maro, he >> joins the anti-British underground of which she and her >> brother are members. Eventually he loses her when all are >> forced into hiding, and gains his final freedom as he ships >> aboard a British vessel... A book for literary, perhaps, >> rather than popular appreciation. >> Less >> Write review >> More book information >> Title The double darkness >> Author Edward Fenton >> Publisher Doubleday, 1947 >> Length 301 pages >> >>> http://books.google.com/books?id=ZJ8wGQAACAAJ&dq=darkness+inauthor:%22Edward+Fenton%22&as_brr=0&ei=rLphS5G5O4bAMoLFlN0N&client=firefox-a&cd=1 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100128/431ed7e3/attachment.html From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Thu Jan 28 14:18:06 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 17:18:06 -0500 Subject: [ilds] salinger & durrell Message-ID: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> The recent passing of Salinger brought the following comparison to my attention. C&c. **** http://www.nybooks.com/articles/13773 > Volume 1, Number 1 ? February 1, 1963 > Seymour > By Steven Marcus > Raise High the Roof Beam, Carpenters > by J.D. Salinger > > Little, Brown, $4.00 > > Some fifteen years ago, J.D. Salinger published a story about the > suicide of a young man. "A Perfect Day for Bananafish" is a sensitive > little work and deserves the popularity it has won. But the incident > that story describes has also become something of an obsession for > Salinger. It is the central or nuclear event to which all his writings > about the Glass family sooner or later refer. Franny and Zooey, > published two years ago, for example, ends with Zooey reminding Franny > of one of Seymour's sayings or parables and thereby bringing her > crisis to an end. It acts upon her as if it were literally a voice > speaking from the far side of the grave?or as if it were an oracle, a > gift of grace, a revelation, or promise of things to come. It is > supposed in other words to possess a religious power or magic, as does > Seymour himself. > > Two more of these long stories are now published in book form. "Raise > High the Roof Beam, Carpenters" and "Seymour?An Introduction" both > appeared in The New Yorker several years ago. Both of these stories > deal with Seymour, or rather both of them deal with the problem of > Seymour, since he cannot be said to be really there in either of them. > "Raise High the Roof Beam," which first appeared in 1955, is about > Seymour's marriage. It takes place in 1942, and is narrated by Buddy > Glass, Seymour's next youngest brother, memorialist, and Salinger's > alter ego. The point of the marriage is that Seymour doesn't show up > for it, and the story consists of a series of conversational > encounters between Buddy and several of the wedding guests. Seymour > more or less doesn't show up for the story either, and one suspects, > while reading it, that the author is unable to make him materialize, > to bring him dramatically back to life. He does make an indirect > appearance, however, through some extracts from his diary which Buddy > reads in the course of the narrative. These extracts confirm all one's > suspicions about the reasons for Seymour's absence from the dramatic > present of the story. They are blood-curdlingly bad, and simply make a > mockery of the pretension with which Seymour is offered to us as > saint, poet, and general all-around genius. *This disparity between > the author's claim for his character and that character's actuality > recalls another recent popular representation in fiction of a > "genius." In Lawrence Durrell's Alexandria Quartet, a similar claim is > made for the writer, Pursewarden; yet when we read the passages from > Pursewareden's writings which Durrell produces, we are led inescapably > to the conclusion that he is a kitsch genius. *And Seymour, it > appears, though he has been fabricated in a different workshop, is > going to turn out to be a kitsch saint. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu Jan 28 15:17:27 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:17:27 -0800 Subject: [ilds] salinger & durrell In-Reply-To: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> Message-ID: <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> Pursewarden a "kitsch genius?" There's a lot of truth to that. Steven Marcus is a good critic. He must have based that assessment on the Brother Ass section in Clea. Durrell should have followed his own advice in "Bitter Lemons," namely, "better leave the rest unsaid." Bruce On Jan 28, 2010, at 2:18 PM, Charles Sligh wrote: > The recent passing of Salinger brought the following comparison to my > attention. > > C&c. > > **** > http://www.nybooks.com/articles/13773 >> Volume 1, Number 1 ? February 1, 1963 >> Seymour >> By Steven Marcus >> Raise High the Roof Beam, Carpenters >> by J.D. Salinger >> >> Little, Brown, $4.00 >> >> Some fifteen years ago, J.D. Salinger published a story about the >> suicide of a young man. "A Perfect Day for Bananafish" is a sensitive >> little work and deserves the popularity it has won. But the incident >> that story describes has also become something of an obsession for >> Salinger. It is the central or nuclear event to which all his writings >> about the Glass family sooner or later refer. Franny and Zooey, >> published two years ago, for example, ends with Zooey reminding Franny >> of one of Seymour's sayings or parables and thereby bringing her >> crisis to an end. It acts upon her as if it were literally a voice >> speaking from the far side of the grave?or as if it were an oracle, a >> gift of grace, a revelation, or promise of things to come. It is >> supposed in other words to possess a religious power or magic, as does >> Seymour himself. >> >> Two more of these long stories are now published in book form. "Raise >> High the Roof Beam, Carpenters" and "Seymour?An Introduction" both >> appeared in The New Yorker several years ago. Both of these stories >> deal with Seymour, or rather both of them deal with the problem of >> Seymour, since he cannot be said to be really there in either of them. >> "Raise High the Roof Beam," which first appeared in 1955, is about >> Seymour's marriage. It takes place in 1942, and is narrated by Buddy >> Glass, Seymour's next youngest brother, memorialist, and Salinger's >> alter ego. The point of the marriage is that Seymour doesn't show up >> for it, and the story consists of a series of conversational >> encounters between Buddy and several of the wedding guests. Seymour >> more or less doesn't show up for the story either, and one suspects, >> while reading it, that the author is unable to make him materialize, >> to bring him dramatically back to life. He does make an indirect >> appearance, however, through some extracts from his diary which Buddy >> reads in the course of the narrative. These extracts confirm all one's >> suspicions about the reasons for Seymour's absence from the dramatic >> present of the story. They are blood-curdlingly bad, and simply make a >> mockery of the pretension with which Seymour is offered to us as >> saint, poet, and general all-around genius. *This disparity between >> the author's claim for his character and that character's actuality >> recalls another recent popular representation in fiction of a >> "genius." In Lawrence Durrell's Alexandria Quartet, a similar claim is >> made for the writer, Pursewarden; yet when we read the passages from >> Pursewareden's writings which Durrell produces, we are led inescapably >> to the conclusion that he is a kitsch genius. *And Seymour, it >> appears, though he has been fabricated in a different workshop, is >> going to turn out to be a kitsch saint. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100128/96cddc6f/attachment.html From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Fri Jan 29 06:02:31 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 09:02:31 -0500 Subject: [ilds] salinger & durrell In-Reply-To: <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4B62EA77.4070404@utc.edu> Bruce Redwine wrote: > Pursewarden a "kitsch genius?" There's a lot of truth to that. Could you explain that a bit more, Bruce. The strongest meaning carried by "kitsch" would be "lowbrow." Do you direct that judgment at the character or his maker? Best-- Charles -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Fri Jan 29 06:35:02 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 09:35:02 -0500 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> I wonder what Durrell would make of the term "kitsch"? I find one instance of the word in his writings: "In Miller you have someone who has crossed the dividing line between art and /Kitsch/ once and for all" (/The Happy Rock/ 3). But what does that sentence mean? Based on the matter of the previous sentence and word order, does Miller leave art (Hemingway, Dos Passos, and Faulkner) and plunge forward with fearless gusto into "Kitsch"? Is that a good thing here? By the evidence of the first /Tropic/, I am supposing that it /is/ a good thing--no more tea cups and doilies and polite library lectures by professors discussing James Joyce and Virginia Woolf for Miller and his readers. . . . Help? Charles -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Fri Jan 29 06:48:28 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 09:48:28 -0500 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> Message-ID: <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> A last observation: I think that Steven Marcus hands down the "kitsch" verdict as a negative. Durrell (and Miller &c.) are not "highbrow" on the order to Joyce, Woolf, and the various American Equivalents of the High Moderns. But does that Marcus verdict really tell us anything new--especially when from early on Miller and Durrell are aligning themselves in opposition to the "high" modern line? The /Justine/ phenom (perfume line and movie) is marvelously kitsch. And Durrell writes his "Minor Mythologies" essay in order to break down the dividing lines between high and low literary art. C&c. *** Charles Sligh wrote: > I wonder what Durrell would make of the term "kitsch"? > > I find one instance of the word in his writings: > > "In Miller you have someone who has crossed the dividing line > between art and /Kitsch/ once and for all" (/The Happy Rock/ 3). > > > But what does that sentence mean? > > Based on the matter of the previous sentence and word order, does Miller > leave art (Hemingway, Dos Passos, and Faulkner) and plunge forward with > fearless gusto into "Kitsch"? > > Is that a good thing here? > > By the evidence of the first /Tropic/, I am supposing that it /is/ a > good thing--no more tea cups and doilies and polite library lectures by > professors discussing James Joyce and Virginia Woolf for Miller and his > readers. . . . > > -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From juliealisa.kobayashi at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 11:42:06 2010 From: juliealisa.kobayashi at gmail.com (J. A. Kobayashi) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 11:42:06 -0800 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> Message-ID: <4f26a15b1001291142n2a5fbcafsdbffa73688d71830@mail.gmail.com> Wow, There was a Justine perfume line? If so, I couldn't find any trace of it through Google searching, Does anyone here know more about it? Best wishes, Julie On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 6:48 AM, Charles Sligh wrote: > A last observation: > > I think that Steven Marcus hands down the "kitsch" verdict as a negative. > > Durrell (and Miller &c.) are not "highbrow" on the order to Joyce, > Woolf, and the various American Equivalents of the High Moderns. > > But does that Marcus verdict really tell us anything new--especially > when from early on Miller and Durrell are aligning themselves in > opposition to the "high" modern line? > > The /Justine/ phenom (perfume line and movie) is marvelously kitsch. And > Durrell writes his "Minor Mythologies" essay in order to break down the > dividing lines between high and low literary art. > > C&c. > > *** > > Charles Sligh wrote: > > I wonder what Durrell would make of the term "kitsch"? > > > > I find one instance of the word in his writings: > > > > "In Miller you have someone who has crossed the dividing line > > between art and /Kitsch/ once and for all" (/The Happy Rock/ 3). > > > > > > But what does that sentence mean? > > > > Based on the matter of the previous sentence and word order, does Miller > > leave art (Hemingway, Dos Passos, and Faulkner) and plunge forward with > > fearless gusto into "Kitsch"? > > > > Is that a good thing here? > > > > By the evidence of the first /Tropic/, I am supposing that it /is/ a > > good thing--no more tea cups and doilies and polite library lectures by > > professors discussing James Joyce and Virginia Woolf for Miller and his > > readers. . . . > > > > > > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100129/706d00d4/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jan 29 13:28:58 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:28:58 -0800 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> Message-ID: <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> Sure, Charles. First, thanks for the excerpt from Marcus's analysis of Seymour Glass. I like it. Here's my take on what Marcus means by calling Pursewarden a "kitsch genius." A little background. Steven Marcus was a colleague of Edward Said at Columbia, both professors. You'll recall Said's comment on Durrell, previously discussed on this List. Said dismissed Durrell as a writer of "classy fiction" (The World, the Text, and the Critic [Cambridge 1983], 3). He tells the anecdote of going to the Pentagon and talking to a college friend working in DOD (Said graduated from Princeton and Harvard). This is during the Vietnam War, and Said wants to understand the type of people bombing the North. The friend defends his boss and says McNamara, Secretary of Defense, has the Quartet on his desk, ergo the Secretary is an intellectual and no monster. Said scoffs at the equation. I assume Marcus and Said exchanged ideas often, and I take "kitsch" and "classy" as being synonymous. I would use the word pretentious in this context, for I'm rather fond of "kitsch," so long as you know what you're dealing with. Yes, kitsch does apply to the Quartet, "marvelously" so, as you note, and yes, I agree, Marcus's usage is entirely negative. I think Marcus is primarily talking about a failure in presentation. Seymour fails as a character because he doesn't live up to his billing. Salinger spends a lot of energy building up this character, making him mysterious, creating an aura of sainthood. When Seymour shows up, however, he's a letdown, a flop, something of a "phony," as Holden Caulfield might say. This may be what Marcus means, and this sense of kitsch can be extended to Durrell's characterization of Pursewarden, whose great reputation as the caustic author of God Is a Humorist is intriguing but whose occasional pronouncements on art and life grow tiresome and pretentious. Durrell's best solution for Pursewarden was to have him commit suicide in Balthazar, like Seymour's suicide in "A Perfect Day for Bananafish." Unfortunately, Durrell later resurrected Ludwig in Clea, where we learn too much about his "genius" from a section of his notebooks, where he sounds like Durrell himself delivering his opinions on the course of English literature. True, Durrell and Miller had a program for reforming English literature, but are we to take this seriously? Highbrow (bad) vs. lowbrow (good)? English priggishness (bad) vs. French earthiness (good)? High Moderns (bad) vs. Jacobeans (good). Joyce (bad) vs. Rabelais (good)? Are we to discount Joyce and Pound because they knew their classics? Durrell scoffs at Joyce because he went back to The Odyssey to seek a new form (Paris Review 1960). In that interview in PR, Durrell talks a lot about art and literature. Does the average Frenchman really appreciate, in a way an Englishman can't, a good Camembert as much as he (or she) does a Picasso? Have the French really integrated art and everyday living? I don't know, but I doubt it. All this talk sounds "classy" and "kitschy" to me, something fundamentally false. Which brings us back to our discussions about Durrell the "wise" sage. Bruce On Jan 29, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Charles Sligh wrote: > A last observation: > > I think that Steven Marcus hands down the "kitsch" verdict as a negative. > > Durrell (and Miller &c.) are not "highbrow" on the order to Joyce, > Woolf, and the various American Equivalents of the High Moderns. > > But does that Marcus verdict really tell us anything new--especially > when from early on Miller and Durrell are aligning themselves in > opposition to the "high" modern line? > > The /Justine/ phenom (perfume line and movie) is marvelously kitsch. And > Durrell writes his "Minor Mythologies" essay in order to break down the > dividing lines between high and low literary art. > > C&c. > > *** > > Charles Sligh wrote: >> I wonder what Durrell would make of the term "kitsch"? >> >> I find one instance of the word in his writings: >> >> "In Miller you have someone who has crossed the dividing line >> between art and /Kitsch/ once and for all" (/The Happy Rock/ 3). >> >> >> But what does that sentence mean? >> >> Based on the matter of the previous sentence and word order, does Miller >> leave art (Hemingway, Dos Passos, and Faulkner) and plunge forward with >> fearless gusto into "Kitsch"? >> >> Is that a good thing here? >> >> By the evidence of the first /Tropic/, I am supposing that it /is/ a >> good thing--no more tea cups and doilies and polite library lectures by >> professors discussing James Joyce and Virginia Woolf for Miller and his >> readers. . . . >> >> > > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100129/c43186a9/attachment.html From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Fri Jan 29 14:01:46 2010 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 23:01:46 +0100 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <4f26a15b1001291142n2a5fbcafsdbffa73688d71830@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> <4f26a15b1001291142n2a5fbcafsdbffa73688d71830@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B635ACA.6020609@interdesign.fr> I did the same search as you some years ago. There was a french company that had a perfume named "Justine". I think it was the same time as the film that was never made; probably what is called today a marketing by-product. It failed in the market place and was abandonned. Sorry I can't be more precise. Marc J. A. Kobayashi a ?crit : > Wow, > > There was a Justine perfume line? If so, I couldn't find any trace of > it through Google searching, Does anyone here know more about it? > > Best wishes, > > Julie > > On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 6:48 AM, Charles Sligh > wrote: > > A last observation: > > I think that Steven Marcus hands down the "kitsch" verdict as a > negative. > > Durrell (and Miller &c.) are not "highbrow" on the order to Joyce, > Woolf, and the various American Equivalents of the High Moderns. > > But does that Marcus verdict really tell us anything new--especially > when from early on Miller and Durrell are aligning themselves in > opposition to the "high" modern line? > > The /Justine/ phenom (perfume line and movie) is marvelously kitsch. And > Durrell writes his "Minor Mythologies" essay in order to break down the > dividing lines between high and low literary art. > > C&c. > > *** > > Charles Sligh wrote: > > I wonder what Durrell would make of the term "kitsch"? > > > > I find one instance of the word in his writings: > > > > "In Miller you have someone who has crossed the dividing line > > between art and /Kitsch/ once and for all" (/The Happy Rock/ 3). > > > > > > But what does that sentence mean? > > > > Based on the matter of the previous sentence and word order, does > Miller > > leave art (Hemingway, Dos Passos, and Faulkner) and plunge > forward with > > fearless gusto into "Kitsch"? > > > > Is that a good thing here? > > > > By the evidence of the first /Tropic/, I am supposing that it /is/ a > > good thing--no more tea cups and doilies and polite library > lectures by > > professors discussing James Joyce and Virginia Woolf for Miller > and his > > readers. . . . > > > > > > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Fri Jan 29 15:57:07 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 18:57:07 -0500 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <4f26a15b1001291142n2a5fbcafsdbffa73688d71830@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> <4f26a15b1001291142n2a5fbcafsdbffa73688d71830@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B6375D3.2010205@utc.edu> J. A. Kobayashi wrote: > Wow, > > There was a Justine perfume line? If so, I couldn't find any trace of > it through Google searching, Does anyone here know more about it? See the link below, Julie. http://www.anothertimevintageapparel.com/stock_L12161.htm Genuine 1960s Louis Feraud designer perfume miniature and box. Justine made in Paris. Eau de toilette triple concentre. 1/6 oz and the bottle is glass and full. Box marked Paris. I hope that you receive a bottle for St. Valentine's. C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: justine_grande_3.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 18475 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100129/4c6e793c/attachment.jpe From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jan 29 14:56:51 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 14:56:51 -0800 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5E4FBD1E-A258-497E-8BA3-6C0391F4D7BC@earthlink.net> A further note on kitsch, which is a fascinating topic. I'm thinking of art and a book that Gillo Dorfles published back in 1969, Kitsch: The World of Bad Taste. Many of Dorfles's examples have a glossy quality. French and English "Orientalism," as seen in 19th century paintings, also has this character, which so annoyed Edward Said (a Palestinian who grew up in Egypt) that he put such a painting on the cover of his famous book, Orientalism (1978). De Mille's Ten Commandments (1956) is an extended study in kitsch ? unintentionally, of course. I think Marcus has something like this in mind when he refers to Pursewarden's "kitsch genius." Ludwig's sayings are glossy, very attractive, and highly literate ? but suspect under closer examination. Bruce On Jan 29, 2010, at 1:28 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > Sure, Charles. First, thanks for the excerpt from Marcus's analysis of Seymour Glass. I like it. Here's my take on what Marcus means by calling Pursewarden a "kitsch genius." A little background. Steven Marcus was a colleague of Edward Said at Columbia, both professors. You'll recall Said's comment on Durrell, previously discussed on this List. Said dismissed Durrell as a writer of "classy fiction" (The World, the Text, and the Critic [Cambridge 1983], 3). He tells the anecdote of going to the Pentagon and talking to a college friend working in DOD (Said graduated from Princeton and Harvard). This is during the Vietnam War, and Said wants to understand the type of people bombing the North. The friend defends his boss and says McNamara, Secretary of Defense, has the Quartet on his desk, ergo the Secretary is an intellectual and no monster. Said scoffs at the equation. I assume Marcus and Said exchanged ideas often, and I take "kitsch" and "classy" as being synonymous. I would use the word pretentious in this context, for I'm rather fond of "kitsch," so long as you know what you're dealing with. Yes, kitsch does apply to the Quartet, "marvelously" so, as you note, and yes, I agree, Marcus's usage is entirely negative. > > I think Marcus is primarily talking about a failure in presentation. Seymour fails as a character because he doesn't live up to his billing. Salinger spends a lot of energy building up this character, making him mysterious, creating an aura of sainthood. When Seymour shows up, however, he's a letdown, a flop, something of a "phony," as Holden Caulfield might say. This may be what Marcus means, and this sense of kitsch can be extended to Durrell's characterization of Pursewarden, whose great reputation as the caustic author of God Is a Humorist is intriguing but whose occasional pronouncements on art and life grow tiresome and pretentious. Durrell's best solution for Pursewarden was to have him commit suicide in Balthazar, like Seymour's suicide in "A Perfect Day for Bananafish." Unfortunately, Durrell later resurrected Ludwig in Clea, where we learn too much about his "genius" from a section of his notebooks, where he sounds like Durrell himself delivering his opinions on the course of English literature. > > True, Durrell and Miller had a program for reforming English literature, but are we to take this seriously? Highbrow (bad) vs. lowbrow (good)? English priggishness (bad) vs. French earthiness (good)? High Moderns (bad) vs. Jacobeans (good). Joyce (bad) vs. Rabelais (good)? Are we to discount Joyce and Pound because they knew their classics? Durrell scoffs at Joyce because he went back to The Odyssey to seek a new form (Paris Review 1960). In that interview in PR, Durrell talks a lot about art and literature. Does the average Frenchman really appreciate, in a way an Englishman can't, a good Camembert as much as he (or she) does a Picasso? Have the French really integrated art and everyday living? I don't know, but I doubt it. All this talk sounds "classy" and "kitschy" to me, something fundamentally false. Which brings us back to our discussions about Durrell the "wise" sage. > > > Bruce > > > On Jan 29, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Charles Sligh wrote: > >> A last observation: >> >> I think that Steven Marcus hands down the "kitsch" verdict as a negative. >> >> Durrell (and Miller &c.) are not "highbrow" on the order to Joyce, >> Woolf, and the various American Equivalents of the High Moderns. >> >> But does that Marcus verdict really tell us anything new--especially >> when from early on Miller and Durrell are aligning themselves in >> opposition to the "high" modern line? >> >> The /Justine/ phenom (perfume line and movie) is marvelously kitsch. And >> Durrell writes his "Minor Mythologies" essay in order to break down the >> dividing lines between high and low literary art. >> >> C&c. >> >> *** >> >> Charles Sligh wrote: >>> I wonder what Durrell would make of the term "kitsch"? >>> >>> I find one instance of the word in his writings: >>> >>> "In Miller you have someone who has crossed the dividing line >>> between art and /Kitsch/ once and for all" (/The Happy Rock/ 3). >>> >>> >>> But what does that sentence mean? >>> >>> Based on the matter of the previous sentence and word order, does Miller >>> leave art (Hemingway, Dos Passos, and Faulkner) and plunge forward with >>> fearless gusto into "Kitsch"? >>> >>> Is that a good thing here? >>> >>> By the evidence of the first /Tropic/, I am supposing that it /is/ a >>> good thing--no more tea cups and doilies and polite library lectures by >>> professors discussing James Joyce and Virginia Woolf for Miller and his >>> readers. . . . >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> ******************************************** >> Charles L. Sligh >> Assistant Professor >> Department of English >> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga >> charles-sligh at utc.edu >> ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100129/43dcbd13/attachment.html From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Fri Jan 29 15:05:51 2010 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 00:05:51 +0100 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4B6369CF.4070406@interdesign.fr> The word kitch is considered derogatory, denoting works executed to pander to popular demand alone and purely for commercial purposes rather than works created as self-expression by an artist (or professor). I invite everyone to reread this post carefully and see what a huge quantity of kitch there is in this post from Bruce. Marc Bruce Redwine a ?crit : > Sure, Charles. First, thanks for the excerpt from Marcus's analysis of > Seymour Glass. I like it. Here's my take on what Marcus means by > calling Pursewarden a "kitsch genius." A little background. Steven > Marcus was a colleague of Edward Said at Columbia, both professors. > You'll recall Said's comment on Durrell, previously discussed on this > List. Said dismissed Durrell as a writer of "classy fiction" /(The > World, the Text, and the Critic/ [Cambridge 1983], 3). He tells the > anecdote of going to the Pentagon and talking to a college friend > working in DOD (Said graduated from Princeton and Harvard). This is > during the Vietnam War, and Said wants to understand the type of people > bombing the North. The friend defends his boss and says McNamara, > Secretary of Defense, has the /Quartet/ on his desk, ergo the Secretary > is an intellectual and no monster. Said scoffs at the equation. I > assume Marcus and Said exchanged ideas often, and I take "kitsch" and > "classy" as being synonymous. I would use the word pretentious in this > context, for I'm rather fond of "kitsch," so long as you know what > you're dealing with. Yes, kitsch does apply to the /Quartet,/ > "marvelously" so, as you note, and yes, I agree, Marcus's usage is > entirely negative. > > I think Marcus is primarily talking about a failure in presentation. > Seymour fails as a character because he doesn't live up to his billing. > Salinger spends a lot of energy building up this character, making him > mysterious, creating an aura of sainthood. When Seymour shows up, > however, he's a letdown, a flop, something of a "phony," as Holden > Caulfield might say. This may be what Marcus means, and this sense of > kitsch can be extended to Durrell's characterization of Pursewarden, > whose great reputation as the caustic author of /God Is a Humorist/ is > intriguing but whose occasional pronouncements on art and life grow > tiresome and pretentious. Durrell's best solution for Pursewarden was > to have him commit suicide in /Balthazar,/ like Seymour's suicide in "A > Perfect Day for Bananafish." Unfortunately, Durrell later resurrected > Ludwig in /Clea,/ where we learn too much about his "genius" from a > section of his notebooks, where he sounds like Durrell himself > delivering his opinions on the course of English literature. > > True, Durrell and Miller had a program for reforming English literature, > but are we to take this seriously? Highbrow (bad) vs. lowbrow (good)? > English priggishness (bad) vs. French earthiness (good)? High Moderns > (bad) vs. Jacobeans (good). Joyce (bad) vs. Rabelais (good)? Are we to > discount Joyce and Pound because they knew their classics? Durrell > scoffs at Joyce because he went back to /The Odyssey/ to seek a new form > /(Paris Review/ 1960). In that interview in /PR,/ Durrell talks a lot > about art and literature. Does the average Frenchman really appreciate, > in a way an Englishman can't, a good Camembert as much as he (or she) > does a Picasso? Have the French really integrated art and everyday > living? I don't know, but I doubt it. All this talk sounds "classy" > and "kitschy" to me, something fundamentally false. Which brings us > back to our discussions about Durrell the "wise" sage. > > > Bruce > > > On Jan 29, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Charles Sligh wrote: > >> A last observation: >> >> I think that Steven Marcus hands down the "kitsch" verdict as a negative. >> >> Durrell (and Miller &c.) are not "highbrow" on the order to Joyce, >> Woolf, and the various American Equivalents of the High Moderns. >> >> But does that Marcus verdict really tell us anything new--especially >> when from early on Miller and Durrell are aligning themselves in >> opposition to the "high" modern line? >> >> The /Justine/ phenom (perfume line and movie) is marvelously kitsch. And >> Durrell writes his "Minor Mythologies" essay in order to break down the >> dividing lines between high and low literary art. >> >> C&c. >> >> *** >> >> Charles Sligh wrote: >>> I wonder what Durrell would make of the term "kitsch"? >>> >>> I find one instance of the word in his writings: >>> >>> "In Miller you have someone who has crossed the dividing line >>> between art and /Kitsch/ once and for all" (/The Happy Rock/ 3). >>> >>> >>> But what does that sentence mean? >>> >>> Based on the matter of the previous sentence and word order, does Miller >>> leave art (Hemingway, Dos Passos, and Faulkner) and plunge forward with >>> fearless gusto into "Kitsch"? >>> >>> Is that a good thing here? >>> >>> By the evidence of the first /Tropic/, I am supposing that it /is/ a >>> good thing--no more tea cups and doilies and polite library lectures by >>> professors discussing James Joyce and Virginia Woolf for Miller and his >>> readers. . . . >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> ******************************************** >> Charles L. Sligh >> Assistant Professor >> Department of English >> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga >> charles-sligh at utc.edu >> ******************************************** > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Fri Jan 29 16:25:36 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 19:25:36 -0500 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <5E4FBD1E-A258-497E-8BA3-6C0391F4D7BC@earthlink.net> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> <5E4FBD1E-A258-497E-8BA3-6C0391F4D7BC@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4B637C80.6090804@utc.edu> Bruce Redwine wrote: > A further note on kitsch, which is a fascinating topic. I'm thinking > of art and a book that Gillo Dorfles published back in 1969, /Kitsch: > The World of Bad Taste./ Many of Dorfles's examples have a glossy > quality. French and English "Orientalism," as seen in 19th century > paintings, also has this character, which so annoyed Edward Said (a > Palestinian who grew up in Egypt) that he put such a painting on the > cover of his famous book, /Orientalism/ (1978). De Mille's /Ten > Commandments/ (1956) is an extended study in kitsch ? unintentionally, > of course. I think Marcus has something like this in mind when he > refers to Pursewarden's "kitsch genius." Ludwig's sayings are glossy, > very attractive, and highly literate ? but suspect under closer > examination. Yes--here I think I follow. A critic uses "Kitsch" as a policing term. Funny how the use of the term "Kitsch" in a negative sense now sounds antiquated, prissy. There have been a number of artistic revolutions since one could wield the term in a dismissive way, and the borderlines between "popular" and "mass appeal" and "high art" are not quite so clear. Kitsch art--self-conscious kitsch and naive kitsch--in some ways holds a sexier cache than the works that artistic mandarin and literary brahman once praised. > Ludwig's sayings are glossy, very attractive, and highly literate ? > but suspect under closer examination. Yes, and yes, and yes--but I would ask for a follow up about that "suspect" business, Bruce. That implies that we have not already paid attention to Pursewarden. He writes again and again throughout the /Quartet/ that his readers are taking him far too seriously. He asks that his readers take a knife to him &c. &c. I think that we have paid better attention, no? Thanks for all of this posting-- Charles -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Fri Jan 29 17:11:23 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 20:11:23 -0500 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4B63873B.4000604@utc.edu> Bruce Redwine wrote: > Said dismissed Durrell as a writer of "classy fiction" /(The World, > the Text, and the Critic/ [Cambridge 1983], 3). He tells the anecdote > of going to the Pentagon and talking to a college friend working in > DOD (Said graduated from Princeton and Harvard). This is during the > Vietnam War, and Said wants to understand the type of people bombing > the North. The friend defends his boss and says McNamara, Secretary > of Defense, has the /Quartet/ on his desk, ergo the Secretary is an > intellectual and no monster. Said scoffs at the equation. I imagine that "we" noted this before on the list, but the plotline of Said's anecdote seems uncannily similar to Eagleton's anecdote about some middling Cambridge don having the /Quartet/ placed conspicuously on his desk to show his visitors this and that. . . . Of course, the anecdotes may or may not be true. And I must confess that I delight in setting out my Durrell collection in such a way that visitors again and again pause to look at those colored Faber bindings and remark, "Oh--Durrell--/Lawrence/ Durrell--I remember. . . ." Such remarks--made by Eagleton, Said, &c.--tend to reveal more about the speaker than the books, I suspect. Cf. Wilde on Caliban seeing his face in the mirror. . . . Durrell was definitely not "on board" with 1968 and all of that. That has much to do with these little latter-day peltasts of the left. Why Durrell should be their target is the real question. It takes a careless reading of history to see him as establishment. > > Durrell's best solution for Pursewarden was to have him commit suicide > in /Balthazar,/ like Seymour's suicide in "A Perfect Day for > Bananafish." An interesting parallel--the decision to kill off characters is fascinating. > True, Durrell and Miller had a program for reforming English > literature, but are we to take this seriously? Highbrow (bad) vs. > lowbrow (good)? English priggishness (bad) vs. French earthiness > (good)? High Moderns (bad) vs. Jacobeans (good). Joyce (bad) vs. > Rabelais (good)? Are we to discount Joyce and Pound because they knew > their classics? Durrell scoffs at Joyce because he went back to /The > Odyssey/ to seek a new form /(Paris Review/ 1960). In that interview > in /PR,/ Durrell talks a lot about art and literature. Does the > average Frenchman really appreciate, in a way an Englishman can't, a > good Camembert as much as he (or she) does a Picasso? Have the French > really integrated art and everyday living? I don't know, but I doubt > it. All this talk sounds "classy" and "kitschy" to me, something > fundamentally false. Which brings us back to our discussions about > Durrell the "wise" sage. No, I suspect Durrell is a floating like a butterfly and stinging like a bee in those moments. If we take him as some sort of literary historian, I think that we mistake him. And Durrell has different attitudes on display in different places and times. Gerry Durrell and the family witnessed one moment of a young Larry Durrell's evolution of taste, and Gerry lampoons it nicely. Durrell's book-length treatment of modern British poetry shows how much he learned from Eliot and Joyce. Durrell's "Minor Mythologies" essay argues that contemporary writers must read both Beerbohm and Proust, both Conan Doyle and Joyce. His remarks to Miller about Eliot are not in line with many of his remarks in his letters to Eliot. I have no problem understanding that Durrell appreciated and relied upon Eliot's attentions as an editor while also speaking out in frustration against what he perceived as the High Modern constipation blocking new things for a new generation. Is "authenticity" what we seem to be circling around in these posts and past posts? "Authenticity" is something about which the modernist writers cared deeply. It was the reason that the new writer must "make it new" &c. But I wonder what "authenticity" meant for Durrell the writer of fiction? Did he care for it all in the /Quartet/ and subsequent fiction? Did he find that he "lacked a belief in the true authenticity of people in order to portray them"? In life, away from writing and interviewers and biographers, I think Durrell was very interested and working hard at the authentic. Thus his move to quietism, seclusion, peasant-culture in France and Greece, &c. I also find the travel writing more thirsty for the "authentic" than the fiction. By the /Quintet/, I cannot find the authentic at all. Charles -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Fri Jan 29 18:30:29 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 21:30:29 -0500 Subject: [ilds] The most political of the novels Message-ID: <4B6399C5.4080106@utc.edu> Mr. Rees stumbles in his plot summary, but the recognition of Durrell in the Guardian list is noteworthy. C&c. *** > > Matt Rees's top 10 novels set in the Arab world > > The Jerusalem-based crime writer picks novels that offer 'a much more > profound contact' with this region than the news > > * Matt Rees > * guardian.co.uk Wednesday 13 January 2010 > http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/jan/13/matt-rees-novels-arab-world > 8. Mountolive by Lawrence Durrell > > The most political of the novels in The Alexandria Quartet. But > because it's Durrell, it also manages to be sexual and seedy. A > British diplomat tells his career story, up to the Zionist gun-running > going on while he conducts an affair with an Arab woman. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Fri Jan 29 18:33:37 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 21:33:37 -0500 Subject: [ilds] mijn absolute lievelingsboek Message-ID: <4B639A81.70204@utc.edu> Another list with mention of Durrell. *** > > Boeken > > Chris van den wyngaert > > vrijdag 29 januari 2010 http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=IN2LBLTT > 'Sommige acteurs leveren topkwaliteit. Zo is Nigel Anthony geknipt als > voorlezer van The Alexandria Quartet van Lawrence Durrell, mijn > absolute lievelingsboek. Het kwartet van verhalen belicht liefde, > geschiedenis, intriges en faits divers uit het leven van een zestal > rijke, interessante personages. Alles speelt zich af in het toen nog > kosmopolitische Alexandri? net voor en tijdens de Tweede Wereldoorlog. > Je kunt het op een willekeurige plaats openslaan of aanklikken op je > iPod, herlezen en nieuwe dingen oppikken, een beetje zoals je met de > Bijbel kunt doen.' -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jan 29 16:11:53 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 16:11:53 -0800 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <4B6369CF.4070406@interdesign.fr> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> <4B6369CF.4070406@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: Thanks, Marc. I'm flattered to find myself in the unexpected company of Steven Marcus and Edward Said. Perhaps you can present an argument, rather than make declarations, ? la Ludwig Pursewarden? Bruyce On Jan 29, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Marc Piel wrote: > The word kitch is considered derogatory, denoting works executed to pander to popular demand alone and purely for commercial purposes rather than works created as self-expression by an artist (or professor). I invite everyone to reread this post carefully and see what a huge quantity of kitch there is in this post from Bruce. > Marc > > Bruce Redwine a ?crit : >> Sure, Charles. First, thanks for the excerpt from Marcus's analysis of Seymour Glass. I like it. Here's my take on what Marcus means by calling Pursewarden a "kitsch genius." A little background. Steven Marcus was a colleague of Edward Said at Columbia, both professors. You'll recall Said's comment on Durrell, previously discussed on this List. Said dismissed Durrell as a writer of "classy fiction" /(The World, the Text, and the Critic/ [Cambridge 1983], 3). He tells the anecdote of going to the Pentagon and talking to a college friend working in DOD (Said graduated from Princeton and Harvard). This is during the Vietnam War, and Said wants to understand the type of people bombing the North. The friend defends his boss and says McNamara, Secretary of Defense, has the /Quartet/ on his desk, ergo the Secretary is an intellectual and no monster. Said scoffs at the equation. I assume Marcus and Said exchanged ideas often, and I take "kitsch" and "classy" as being synonymous. I would use the word pretentious in this context, for I'm rather fond of "kitsch," so long as you know what you're dealing with. Yes, kitsch does apply to the /Quartet,/ "marvelously" so, as you note, and yes, I agree, Marcus's usage is entirely negative. >> I think Marcus is primarily talking about a failure in presentation. Seymour fails as a character because he doesn't live up to his billing. Salinger spends a lot of energy building up this character, making him mysterious, creating an aura of sainthood. When Seymour shows up, however, he's a letdown, a flop, something of a "phony," as Holden Caulfield might say. This may be what Marcus means, and this sense of kitsch can be extended to Durrell's characterization of Pursewarden, whose great reputation as the caustic author of /God Is a Humorist/ is intriguing but whose occasional pronouncements on art and life grow tiresome and pretentious. Durrell's best solution for Pursewarden was to have him commit suicide in /Balthazar,/ like Seymour's suicide in "A Perfect Day for Bananafish." Unfortunately, Durrell later resurrected Ludwig in /Clea,/ where we learn too much about his "genius" from a section of his notebooks, where he sounds like Durrell himself delivering his opinions on the course of English literature. >> True, Durrell and Miller had a program for reforming English literature, but are we to take this seriously? Highbrow (bad) vs. lowbrow (good)? English priggishness (bad) vs. French earthiness (good)? High Moderns (bad) vs. Jacobeans (good). Joyce (bad) vs. Rabelais (good)? Are we to discount Joyce and Pound because they knew their classics? Durrell scoffs at Joyce because he went back to /The Odyssey/ to seek a new form /(Paris Review/ 1960). In that interview in /PR,/ Durrell talks a lot about art and literature. Does the average Frenchman really appreciate, in a way an Englishman can't, a good Camembert as much as he (or she) does a Picasso? Have the French really integrated art and everyday living? I don't know, but I doubt it. All this talk sounds "classy" and "kitschy" to me, something fundamentally false. Which brings us back to our discussions about Durrell the "wise" sage. >> Bruce >> On Jan 29, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Charles Sligh wrote: >>> A last observation: >>> >>> I think that Steven Marcus hands down the "kitsch" verdict as a negative. >>> >>> Durrell (and Miller &c.) are not "highbrow" on the order to Joyce, >>> Woolf, and the various American Equivalents of the High Moderns. >>> >>> But does that Marcus verdict really tell us anything new--especially >>> when from early on Miller and Durrell are aligning themselves in >>> opposition to the "high" modern line? >>> >>> The /Justine/ phenom (perfume line and movie) is marvelously kitsch. And >>> Durrell writes his "Minor Mythologies" essay in order to break down the >>> dividing lines between high and low literary art. >>> >>> C&c. >>> >>> *** >>> >>> Charles Sligh wrote: >>>> I wonder what Durrell would make of the term "kitsch"? >>>> >>>> I find one instance of the word in his writings: >>>> >>>> "In Miller you have someone who has crossed the dividing line >>>> between art and /Kitsch/ once and for all" (/The Happy Rock/ 3). >>>> >>>> >>>> But what does that sentence mean? >>>> >>>> Based on the matter of the previous sentence and word order, does Miller >>>> leave art (Hemingway, Dos Passos, and Faulkner) and plunge forward with >>>> fearless gusto into "Kitsch"? >>>> >>>> Is that a good thing here? >>>> >>>> By the evidence of the first /Tropic/, I am supposing that it /is/ a >>>> good thing--no more tea cups and doilies and polite library lectures by >>>> professors discussing James Joyce and Virginia Woolf for Miller and his >>>> readers. . . . >>>> From dtart at bigpond.net.au Fri Jan 29 16:17:41 2010 From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 11:17:41 +1100 Subject: [ilds] Art and Cheese Message-ID: <9BD072376E024E4285A5870FB5BB6C60@MumandDad> Mmm.. Art and Fromage. I think we should ask our resident Frenchman, Marc Piel for his views on whether the French really consider art and cheese in the same way? I suppose what Durrell is alluding to is the idea that art and cheese or wine are just part of a culture, put on a pedastle or not in much the same way. AFrench friend of mine once said "You English and Australian's go on about wine, in France we just drink it." Perhaps Durrell is saying that we Anglos' see wine or camembert or art as a badge of high culture, something seperate from general living whereas the French don't. I doubt this - and Durrell wasn't French so his thinking could be dodgy. I think Durrell was being disengenuous - making a reference to the idea expressed by Oscar Wilde that "In England every artist wants to be bourgeois while in France every bourgeois want to be an artist". Durrell supports his preference for France and it's food and their appreciation of his art AND carried on his war with pudding island at the same time. Over to you Marc. David Green 16 William Street Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au www.denisetart.com.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100130/a621bec7/attachment.html From juliealisa.kobayashi at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 00:28:44 2010 From: juliealisa.kobayashi at gmail.com (J. A. Kobayashi) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 00:28:44 -0800 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <4B63873B.4000604@utc.edu> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> <4B63873B.4000604@utc.edu> Message-ID: <4f26a15b1001300028t4c7150f4r7b51f9bac99d6f7@mail.gmail.com> Dear Charles, I am so glad to know that Justine is not *jamais de la vie* unlike the fictional fragrance of the same name and that neither is charm nor consideration. My thanks to you, and Marc as well. Best wishes, Julie On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Charles Sligh wrote: > Bruce Redwine wrote: > > Said dismissed Durrell as a writer of "classy fiction" /(The World, > > the Text, and the Critic/ [Cambridge 1983], 3). He tells the anecdote > > of going to the Pentagon and talking to a college friend working in > > DOD (Said graduated from Princeton and Harvard). This is during the > > Vietnam War, and Said wants to understand the type of people bombing > > the North. The friend defends his boss and says McNamara, Secretary > > of Defense, has the /Quartet/ on his desk, ergo the Secretary is an > > intellectual and no monster. Said scoffs at the equation. > > I imagine that "we" noted this before on the list, but the plotline of > Said's anecdote seems uncannily similar to Eagleton's anecdote about > some middling Cambridge don having the /Quartet/ placed conspicuously on > his desk to show his visitors this and that. . . . > > Of course, the anecdotes may or may not be true. > > And I must confess that I delight in setting out my Durrell collection > in such a way that visitors again and again pause to look at those > colored Faber bindings and remark, "Oh--Durrell--/Lawrence/ Durrell--I > remember. . . ." > > Such remarks--made by Eagleton, Said, &c.--tend to reveal more about the > speaker than the books, I suspect. > > Cf. Wilde on Caliban seeing his face in the mirror. . . . > > Durrell was definitely not "on board" with 1968 and all of that. That > has much to do with these little latter-day peltasts of the left. Why > Durrell should be their target is the real question. It takes a > careless reading of history to see him as establishment. > > > > > Durrell's best solution for Pursewarden was to have him commit suicide > > in /Balthazar,/ like Seymour's suicide in "A Perfect Day for > > Bananafish." > > An interesting parallel--the decision to kill off characters is > fascinating. > > True, Durrell and Miller had a program for reforming English > > literature, but are we to take this seriously? Highbrow (bad) vs. > > lowbrow (good)? English priggishness (bad) vs. French earthiness > > (good)? High Moderns (bad) vs. Jacobeans (good). Joyce (bad) vs. > > Rabelais (good)? Are we to discount Joyce and Pound because they knew > > their classics? Durrell scoffs at Joyce because he went back to /The > > Odyssey/ to seek a new form /(Paris Review/ 1960). In that interview > > in /PR,/ Durrell talks a lot about art and literature. Does the > > average Frenchman really appreciate, in a way an Englishman can't, a > > good Camembert as much as he (or she) does a Picasso? Have the French > > really integrated art and everyday living? I don't know, but I doubt > > it. All this talk sounds "classy" and "kitschy" to me, something > > fundamentally false. Which brings us back to our discussions about > > Durrell the "wise" sage. > No, I suspect Durrell is a floating like a butterfly and stinging like a > bee in those moments. If we take him as some sort of literary > historian, I think that we mistake him. > > And Durrell has different attitudes on display in different places and > times. > > Gerry Durrell and the family witnessed one moment of a young Larry > Durrell's evolution of taste, and Gerry lampoons it nicely. > > Durrell's book-length treatment of modern British poetry shows how much > he learned from Eliot and Joyce. > > Durrell's "Minor Mythologies" essay argues that contemporary writers > must read both Beerbohm and Proust, both Conan Doyle and Joyce. > > His remarks to Miller about Eliot are not in line with many of his > remarks in his letters to Eliot. I have no problem understanding that > Durrell appreciated and relied upon Eliot's attentions as an editor > while also speaking out in frustration against what he perceived as the > High Modern constipation blocking new things for a new generation. > > Is "authenticity" what we seem to be circling around in these posts and > past posts? > > "Authenticity" is something about which the modernist writers cared > deeply. It was the reason that the new writer must "make it new" &c. > > But I wonder what "authenticity" meant for Durrell the writer of > fiction? Did he care for it all in the /Quartet/ and subsequent > fiction? Did he find that he "lacked a belief in the true authenticity > of people in order to portray them"? > > In life, away from writing and interviewers and biographers, I think > Durrell was very interested and working hard at the authentic. Thus his > move to quietism, seclusion, peasant-culture in France and Greece, &c. > > I also find the travel writing more thirsty for the "authentic" than the > fiction. > > By the /Quintet/, I cannot find the authentic at all. > > Charles > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100130/331f256a/attachment.html From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Sat Jan 30 09:19:02 2010 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:19:02 +0100 Subject: [ilds] mijn absolute lievelingsboek In-Reply-To: <4B639A81.70204@utc.edu> References: <4B639A81.70204@utc.edu> Message-ID: <4B646A06.6020006@interdesign.fr> Google translation: "Durrell is God" "Some actors deliver excellence. So cut as Nigel Anthony > Reader of The Alexandria Quartet by Lawrence Durrell, My > Absolute favorite book. The quartet of love stories highlighted, > History, intrigue and faits divers from the life of a six > Rich, interesting characters. Everything is in the then > Cosmopolitan Alexandria just before and during the Second World War. > You can open a store or click anywhere on your > IPod, reread and pick up new things, a bit like you with the > Bible can do. " Charles Sligh a ?crit : > Another list with mention of Durrell. > > *** >> Boeken >> >> Chris van den wyngaert >> >> vrijdag 29 januari 2010 > http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=IN2LBLTT > >> 'Sommige acteurs leveren topkwaliteit. Zo is Nigel Anthony geknipt als >> voorlezer van The Alexandria Quartet van Lawrence Durrell, mijn >> absolute lievelingsboek. Het kwartet van verhalen belicht liefde, >> geschiedenis, intriges en faits divers uit het leven van een zestal >> rijke, interessante personages. Alles speelt zich af in het toen nog >> kosmopolitische Alexandri? net voor en tijdens de Tweede Wereldoorlog. >> Je kunt het op een willekeurige plaats openslaan of aanklikken op je >> iPod, herlezen en nieuwe dingen oppikken, een beetje zoals je met de >> Bijbel kunt doen.' > From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Sat Jan 30 09:27:55 2010 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:27:55 +0100 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> <4B6369CF.4070406@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: <4B646C1B.6030909@interdesign.fr> Hello Bruce Maybe Kitch is in the eye of the beholder. Probably I have a professional deformation. Don't forget I am a designer where form, function and esthetics are key in my perception. Maybe an Englishman can enjoy Camembert as much as a Frenchman can enjoy Fish&Chips. Maybe not. Maybe I just don't understand or that my irony does not accept the association of LD and kitch. For me they are opposites, but you said they were the same. Or did I really misunderstand? Marc Bruce Redwine a ?crit : > Thanks, Marc. I'm flattered to find myself in the unexpected company of Steven Marcus and Edward Said. Perhaps you can present an argument, rather than make declarations, ? la Ludwig Pursewarden? > > > Bruyce > > > On Jan 29, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Marc Piel wrote: > >> The word kitch is considered derogatory, denoting works executed to pander to popular demand alone and purely for commercial purposes rather than works created as self-expression by an artist (or professor). I invite everyone to reread this post carefully and see what a huge quantity of kitch there is in this post from Bruce. >> Marc >> >> Bruce Redwine a ?crit : >>> Sure, Charles. First, thanks for the excerpt from Marcus's analysis of Seymour Glass. I like it. Here's my take on what Marcus means by calling Pursewarden a "kitsch genius." A little background. Steven Marcus was a colleague of Edward Said at Columbia, both professors. You'll recall Said's comment on Durrell, previously discussed on this List. Said dismissed Durrell as a writer of "classy fiction" /(The World, the Text, and the Critic/ [Cambridge 1983], 3). He tells the anecdote of going to the Pentagon and talking to a college friend working in DOD (Said graduated from Princeton and Harvard). This is during the Vietnam War, and Said wants to understand the type of people bombing the North. The friend defends his boss and says McNamara, Secretary of Defense, has the /Quartet/ on his desk, ergo the Secretary is an intellectual and no monster. Said scoffs at the equation. I assume Marcus and Said exchanged ideas often, and I take "kitsch" and "classy" as being synonymous. I would use the word pretentious in this context, for I'm rather fond of "kitsch," so long as you know what you're dealing with. Yes, kitsch does apply to the /Quartet,/ "marvelously" so, as you note, and yes, I agree, Marcus's usage is entirely negative. >>> I think Marcus is primarily talking about a failure in presentation. Seymour fails as a character because he doesn't live up to his billing. Salinger spends a lot of energy building up this character, making him mysterious, creating an aura of sainthood. When Seymour shows up, however, he's a letdown, a flop, something of a "phony," as Holden Caulfield might say. This may be what Marcus means, and this sense of kitsch can be extended to Durrell's characterization of Pursewarden, whose great reputation as the caustic author of /God Is a Humorist/ is intriguing but whose occasional pronouncements on art and life grow tiresome and pretentious. Durrell's best solution for Pursewarden was to have him commit suicide in /Balthazar,/ like Seymour's suicide in "A Perfect Day for Bananafish." Unfortunately, Durrell later resurrected Ludwig in /Clea,/ where we learn too much about his "genius" from a section of his notebooks, where he sounds like Durrell himself delivering his opinions on the course of English literature. >>> True, Durrell and Miller had a program for reforming English literature, but are we to take this seriously? Highbrow (bad) vs. lowbrow (good)? English priggishness (bad) vs. French earthiness (good)? High Moderns (bad) vs. Jacobeans (good). Joyce (bad) vs. Rabelais (good)? Are we to discount Joyce and Pound because they knew their classics? Durrell scoffs at Joyce because he went back to /The Odyssey/ to seek a new form /(Paris Review/ 1960). In that interview in /PR,/ Durrell talks a lot about art and literature. Does the average Frenchman really appreciate, in a way an Englishman can't, a good Camembert as much as he (or she) does a Picasso? Have the French really integrated art and everyday living? I don't know, but I doubt it. All this talk sounds "classy" and "kitschy" to me, something fundamentally false. Which brings us back to our discussions about Durrell the "wise" sage. >>> Bruce >>> On Jan 29, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Charles Sligh wrote: >>>> A last observation: >>>> >>>> I think that Steven Marcus hands down the "kitsch" verdict as a negative. >>>> >>>> Durrell (and Miller &c.) are not "highbrow" on the order to Joyce, >>>> Woolf, and the various American Equivalents of the High Moderns. >>>> >>>> But does that Marcus verdict really tell us anything new--especially >>>> when from early on Miller and Durrell are aligning themselves in >>>> opposition to the "high" modern line? >>>> >>>> The /Justine/ phenom (perfume line and movie) is marvelously kitsch. And >>>> Durrell writes his "Minor Mythologies" essay in order to break down the >>>> dividing lines between high and low literary art. >>>> >>>> C&c. >>>> >>>> *** >>>> >>>> Charles Sligh wrote: >>>>> I wonder what Durrell would make of the term "kitsch"? >>>>> >>>>> I find one instance of the word in his writings: >>>>> >>>>> "In Miller you have someone who has crossed the dividing line >>>>> between art and /Kitsch/ once and for all" (/The Happy Rock/ 3). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But what does that sentence mean? >>>>> >>>>> Based on the matter of the previous sentence and word order, does Miller >>>>> leave art (Hemingway, Dos Passos, and Faulkner) and plunge forward with >>>>> fearless gusto into "Kitsch"? >>>>> >>>>> Is that a good thing here? >>>>> >>>>> By the evidence of the first /Tropic/, I am supposing that it /is/ a >>>>> good thing--no more tea cups and doilies and polite library lectures by >>>>> professors discussing James Joyce and Virginia Woolf for Miller and his >>>>> readers. . . . >>>>> > > > From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Sat Jan 30 09:53:46 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 12:53:46 -0500 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <4B646C1B.6030909@interdesign.fr> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> <4B6369CF.4070406@interdesign.fr> <4B646C1B.6030909@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: <4B64722A.3010403@utc.edu> Marc Piel wrote: > Maybe I > just don't understand or that my irony does not > accept the association of LD and kitch. For me > they are opposites, but you said they were the > same. Or did I really misunderstand? > Marc > Thanks, Marc. I can accept the application of the term "kitsch" to Durrell if it is meant in a more current, less-dismissive sense. But if the term merely refers to outdated notions of "this work please stamp HIGH CULTURE" and "this work please stamp fodder for the commoners," then we best let it drop. No one can deny that Durrell mixes what used to be called highbrow and lowbrow in his work--mannerisms picked up from Eliot or Proust &c. jostle plot devices and mannerisms picked up from Wodehouse and Buchan &c. (Durrell himself used those terms of hi and lo in "Minor Mythologies." I still would like to know what Durrell meant by kitsch in /The Happy Rock/.) To me, Durrell's magpie socking-away of a little of this and a little of that evidences what is rich and surprising about the /Quartet/ &c. I would count the uneven or over-stuffed moments also as attractive. Whatever the pretension of continuum &c., I find the marks of its writing-time throughout, and it is obviously no chaste prim Grecian Urn. The book holds an immediacy for me that museum-pieces by Joyce or Woolf simply do not. Instead of Flaubert's model of extreme /ascesis/ and polish, Durrell looks for his pattern in Rabelais and Shakespeare and Miller and Sade and late-Victorian pulp fiction. C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sat Jan 30 10:43:51 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:43:51 -0800 Subject: [ilds] The most political of the novels In-Reply-To: <4B6399C5.4080106@utc.edu> References: <4B6399C5.4080106@utc.edu> Message-ID: <7A42ADA4-022A-4782-BBB0-02B9F1A5F99F@earthlink.net> This is an interesting Israeli perspective on Durrell's political ideas about the Middle East. Durrell advocates a Jewish state to counterbalance Arab hegemony in the region. Haag makes this point. Matt Rees apparently approves. So, another reason for Durrell being unpopular in the Arab world and may account for Said's animosity towards him. Edward Said was an active member of the PLO. Bruce Sent from my iPhone On Jan 29, 2010, at 6:30 PM, Charles Sligh wrote: > Mr. Rees stumbles in his plot summary, but the recognition of > Durrell in > the Guardian list is noteworthy. > > C&c. > > *** > >> >> Matt Rees's top 10 novels set in the Arab world >> >> The Jerusalem-based crime writer picks novels that offer 'a much more >> profound contact' with this region than the news >> >> * Matt Rees >> * guardian.co.uk Wednesday 13 January 2010 >> http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/jan/13/matt-rees-novels-arab-world > >> 8. Mountolive by Lawrence Durrell >> >> The most political of the novels in The Alexandria Quartet. But >> because it's Durrell, it also manages to be sexual and seedy. A >> British diplomat tells his career story, up to the Zionist gun- >> running >> going on while he conducts an affair with an Arab woman. > > > > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Sat Jan 30 16:14:06 2010 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 01:14:06 +0100 Subject: [ilds] The most political of the novels In-Reply-To: <7A42ADA4-022A-4782-BBB0-02B9F1A5F99F@earthlink.net> References: <4B6399C5.4080106@utc.edu> <7A42ADA4-022A-4782-BBB0-02B9F1A5F99F@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4B64CB4E.2090701@interdesign.fr> Surely Nancy's fleeing to Palestine had an influence on Durrell's life (as can be seen in Justine) but not necessarily on his political opinions. Marc Bruce Redwine a ?crit : > This is an interesting Israeli perspective on Durrell's political > ideas about the Middle East. Durrell advocates a Jewish state to > counterbalance Arab hegemony in the region. Haag makes this point. > Matt Rees apparently approves. So, another reason for Durrell being > unpopular in the Arab world and may account for Said's animosity > towards him. Edward Said was an active member of the PLO. > > > Bruce > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 29, 2010, at 6:30 PM, Charles Sligh > wrote: > >> Mr. Rees stumbles in his plot summary, but the recognition of >> Durrell in >> the Guardian list is noteworthy. >> >> C&c. >> >> *** >> >>> Matt Rees's top 10 novels set in the Arab world >>> >>> The Jerusalem-based crime writer picks novels that offer 'a much more >>> profound contact' with this region than the news >>> >>> * Matt Rees >>> * guardian.co.uk Wednesday 13 January 2010 >>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/jan/13/matt-rees-novels-arab-world >>> 8. Mountolive by Lawrence Durrell >>> >>> The most political of the novels in The Alexandria Quartet. But >>> because it's Durrell, it also manages to be sexual and seedy. A >>> British diplomat tells his career story, up to the Zionist gun- >>> running >>> going on while he conducts an affair with an Arab woman. >> >> >> >> -- >> ******************************************** >> Charles L. Sligh >> Assistant Professor >> Department of English >> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga >> charles-sligh at utc.edu >> ******************************************** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Sat Jan 30 16:44:23 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 19:44:23 -0500 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <4B64CA9F.1050706@interdesign.fr> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> <4B6369CF.4070406@interdesign.fr> <4B646C1B.6030909@interdesign.fr> <4B64722A.3010403@utc.edu> <4B64CA9F.1050706@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: <4B64D267.20207@utc.edu> I think you missed my point by miles and miles, Mark. That is okay. I could say it better, I am certain. And your reading in English beats my reading in French any day, my friend. I spoke out against those critics who would dismiss the writings of Lawrence Durrell by means of glib and dated terms of "high culture" and "low culture." I would rally against criticism of Durrell anyway, but I hope that I would always bring my best and thoughtful remarks. I certainly do not find Durrell a "perfect" writer. But I do indeed find him an interesting, often enchanting, and too-often disregarded writer. I have learned quite a bit about the world and literature from Durrell's writing. I have met some good friends through mutual reading of his works. I owe him. And I am immensely fond of the old guy. I find that most quick dismissals of Durrell's writing come from critics who have easy, provincial, and inflexible assumptions about literary value. Durrell wrote about the pettiness of official or academic literary categories in an early 1950s essay titled "The Minor Mythologies." Try reading Durrell's smart essay. Durrell sets out a compelling argument for why reading works by a diversity of writers--such as Marcel Proust and Arthur Conan Doyle and H. Rider Haggard and James Joyce and Bram Stoker--might just help younger writers break free of stagnant formulae. As in other instances, Durrell imagines Shakespeare as his model reader and writer--the Elizabethan playwright who enriches most because, Durrell imagines, he has the most catholic and esoteric tastes. Good luck-- Charles -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sat Jan 30 17:42:20 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:42:20 -0800 Subject: [ilds] The most political of the novels In-Reply-To: <4B64CB4E.2090701@interdesign.fr> References: <4B6399C5.4080106@utc.edu> <7A42ADA4-022A-4782-BBB0-02B9F1A5F99F@earthlink.net> <4B64CB4E.2090701@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: The big influence on Durrell re Palestine and politics was Claude Vincendon and Eve Cohen, both Jews. This is Haag's argument. Nancy only superficially so. Bruce On Jan 30, 2010, at 4:14 PM, Marc Piel wrote: > Surely Nancy's fleeing to Palestine had an > influence on Durrell's life (as can be seen in > Justine) but not necessarily on his political > opinions. > > Marc > > Bruce Redwine a ?crit : >> This is an interesting Israeli perspective on Durrell's political >> ideas about the Middle East. Durrell advocates a Jewish state to >> counterbalance Arab hegemony in the region. Haag makes this point. >> Matt Rees apparently approves. So, another reason for Durrell being >> unpopular in the Arab world and may account for Said's animosity >> towards him. Edward Said was an active member of the PLO. >> >> >> Bruce >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jan 29, 2010, at 6:30 PM, Charles Sligh >> wrote: >> >>> Mr. Rees stumbles in his plot summary, but the recognition of >>> Durrell in >>> the Guardian list is noteworthy. >>> >>> C&c. >>> >>> *** >>> >>>> Matt Rees's top 10 novels set in the Arab world >>>> >>>> The Jerusalem-based crime writer picks novels that offer 'a much more >>>> profound contact' with this region than the news >>>> >>>> * Matt Rees >>>> * guardian.co.uk Wednesday 13 January 2010 >>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/jan/13/matt-rees-novels-arab-world >>>> 8. Mountolive by Lawrence Durrell >>>> >>>> The most political of the novels in The Alexandria Quartet. But >>>> because it's Durrell, it also manages to be sexual and seedy. A >>>> British diplomat tells his career story, up to the Zionist gun- >>>> running >>>> going on while he conducts an affair with an Arab woman. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ******************************************** >>> Charles L. Sligh >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of English >>> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga >>> charles-sligh at utc.edu >>> ******************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sat Jan 30 20:29:09 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 20:29:09 -0800 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <4B646C1B.6030909@interdesign.fr> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> <4B6369CF.4070406@interdesign.fr> <4B646C1B.6030909@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: <0A1EBB32-0D81-4779-B122-B52E72F2B148@earthlink.net> Marc, Kitsch probably is in the eye of the beholder. You have your idea of kitsch, and I have mine. A question, would you consider Delacroix's or Chass?riau's paintings about the Middle East kitsch? Or do you think them high art? I specifically refer to "The Death of Sardanapalus" (1827; Louvre) or "Harem Interior" (1854; Strasbourg, Mus?e des Beaux-Arts)? Edward Said would have probably considered these dramatic and romanticized depictions of his culture a kind of kitsch, which he found deplorable and objectionable. Now, my point is that this type of painting is not far removed from some of the ways Durrell depicts Alexandria and Egypt: glossy, sexy, delectable, titillating, romanticized, and probably false because of its limited scope. This is a kind of literature that Said calls "classy," appealing to Western "high-brow" sensibilities (as Delacroix and Chass?riau did during their time), and, I dare say, Steven Marcus would have called "kitsch," had he generalized his comment about Pursewarden to the Quartet as a whole. Do I believe this is fair and accurate? I don't know but I strongly suspect not. This whole discussion is simply trying to understand the problem. Bruce On Jan 30, 2010, at 9:27 AM, Marc Piel wrote: > Hello Bruce > Maybe Kitch is in the eye of the beholder. > Probably I have a professional deformation. Don't > forget I am a designer where form, function and > esthetics are key in my perception. Maybe an > Englishman can enjoy Camembert as much as a > Frenchman can enjoy Fish&Chips. Maybe not. Maybe I > just don't understand or that my irony does not > accept the association of LD and kitch. For me > they are opposites, but you said they were the > same. Or did I really misunderstand? > Marc > > Bruce Redwine a ?crit : >> Thanks, Marc. I'm flattered to find myself in the unexpected company of Steven Marcus and Edward Said. Perhaps you can present an argument, rather than make declarations, ? la Ludwig Pursewarden? >> >> >> Bruyce >> >> >> On Jan 29, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Marc Piel wrote: >> >>> The word kitch is considered derogatory, denoting works executed to pander to popular demand alone and purely for commercial purposes rather than works created as self-expression by an artist (or professor). I invite everyone to reread this post carefully and see what a huge quantity of kitch there is in this post from Bruce. >>> Marc >>> >>> Bruce Redwine a ?crit : >>>> Sure, Charles. First, thanks for the excerpt from Marcus's analysis of Seymour Glass. I like it. Here's my take on what Marcus means by calling Pursewarden a "kitsch genius." A little background. Steven Marcus was a colleague of Edward Said at Columbia, both professors. You'll recall Said's comment on Durrell, previously discussed on this List. Said dismissed Durrell as a writer of "classy fiction" /(The World, the Text, and the Critic/ [Cambridge 1983], 3). He tells the anecdote of going to the Pentagon and talking to a college friend working in DOD (Said graduated from Princeton and Harvard). This is during the Vietnam War, and Said wants to understand the type of people bombing the North. The friend defends his boss and says McNamara, Secretary of Defense, has the /Quartet/ on his desk, ergo the Secretary is an intellectual and no monster. Said scoffs at the equation. I assume Marcus and Said exchanged ideas often, and I take "kitsch" and "classy" as being > synonymous. I would use the word pretentious in this context, for I'm rather fond of "kitsch," so long as you know what you're dealing with. Yes, kitsch does apply to the /Quartet,/ "marvelously" so, as you note, and yes, I agree, Marcus's usage is entirely negative. >>>> I think Marcus is primarily talking about a failure in presentation. Seymour fails as a character because he doesn't live up to his billing. Salinger spends a lot of energy building up this character, making him mysterious, creating an aura of sainthood. When Seymour shows up, however, he's a letdown, a flop, something of a "phony," as Holden Caulfield might say. This may be what Marcus means, and this sense of kitsch can be extended to Durrell's characterization of Pursewarden, whose great reputation as the caustic author of /God Is a Humorist/ is intriguing but whose occasional pronouncements on art and life grow tiresome and pretentious. Durrell's best solution for Pursewarden was to have him commit suicide in /Balthazar,/ like Seymour's suicide in "A Perfect Day for Bananafish." Unfortunately, Durrell later resurrected Ludwig in /Clea,/ where we learn too much about his "genius" from a section of his notebooks, where he sounds like Durrell himself delivering his > opinions on the course of English literature. >>>> True, Durrell and Miller had a program for reforming English literature, but are we to take this seriously? Highbrow (bad) vs. lowbrow (good)? English priggishness (bad) vs. French earthiness (good)? High Moderns (bad) vs. Jacobeans (good). Joyce (bad) vs. Rabelais (good)? Are we to discount Joyce and Pound because they knew their classics? Durrell scoffs at Joyce because he went back to /The Odyssey/ to seek a new form /(Paris Review/ 1960). In that interview in /PR,/ Durrell talks a lot about art and literature. Does the average Frenchman really appreciate, in a way an Englishman can't, a good Camembert as much as he (or she) does a Picasso? Have the French really integrated art and everyday living? I don't know, but I doubt it. All this talk sounds "classy" and "kitschy" to me, something fundamentally false. Which brings us back to our discussions about Durrell the "wise" sage. >>>> Bruce >>>> On Jan 29, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Charles Sligh wrote: >>>>> A last observation: >>>>> >>>>> I think that Steven Marcus hands down the "kitsch" verdict as a negative. >>>>> >>>>> Durrell (and Miller &c.) are not "highbrow" on the order to Joyce, >>>>> Woolf, and the various American Equivalents of the High Moderns. >>>>> >>>>> But does that Marcus verdict really tell us anything new--especially >>>>> when from early on Miller and Durrell are aligning themselves in >>>>> opposition to the "high" modern line? >>>>> >>>>> The /Justine/ phenom (perfume line and movie) is marvelously kitsch. And >>>>> Durrell writes his "Minor Mythologies" essay in order to break down the >>>>> dividing lines between high and low literary art. >>>>> >>>>> C&c. >>>>> >>>>> *** >>>>> >>>>> Charles Sligh wrote: >>>>>> I wonder what Durrell would make of the term "kitsch"? >>>>>> >>>>>> I find one instance of the word in his writings: >>>>>> >>>>>> "In Miller you have someone who has crossed the dividing line >>>>>> between art and /Kitsch/ once and for all" (/The Happy Rock/ 3). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> But what does that sentence mean? >>>>>> >>>>>> Based on the matter of the previous sentence and word order, does Miller >>>>>> leave art (Hemingway, Dos Passos, and Faulkner) and plunge forward with >>>>>> fearless gusto into "Kitsch"? >>>>>> >>>>>> Is that a good thing here? >>>>>> >>>>>> By the evidence of the first /Tropic/, I am supposing that it /is/ a >>>>>> good thing--no more tea cups and doilies and polite library lectures by >>>>>> professors discussing James Joyce and Virginia Woolf for Miller and his >>>>>> readers. . . . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100130/18458531/attachment.html From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Sun Jan 31 06:52:02 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 09:52:02 -0500 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <0A1EBB32-0D81-4779-B122-B52E72F2B148@earthlink.net> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> <4B6369CF.4070406@interdesign.fr> <4B646C1B.6030909@interdesign.fr> <0A1EBB32-0D81-4779-B122-B52E72F2B148@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4B659912.60303@utc.edu> Bruce Redwine wrote: > > > Now, my point is that this type of painting is not far removed > from some of the ways Durrell depicts Alexandria and Egypt: > glossy, sexy, delectable, titillating, romanticized, and > probably false because of its limited scope. This is a kind > of literature that Said calls "classy," appealing to Western > "high-brow" sensibilities (as Delacroix and Chass?riau did > during their time), and, I dare say, Steven Marcus would have > called "kitsch," had he generalized his comment about > Pursewarden to the /Quartet/ as a whole. Do I believe this is > fair and accurate? I don't know but I strongly suspect not. > This whole discussion is simply trying to understand the problem. > > > Thanks for Marc's and Bruce's efforts toward "understanding the problem." I hope others will pitch in from their various points of view. Bruce, I think you bring up something important here when you turn our attention to "some of the ways Durrell depicts Alexandria and Egypt: glossy, sexy, delectable, titillating, romanticized, and probably false because of its limited scope." And I think that description goes back to an original question--an original question here in our list's continuing discussion of the writings and life of Lawrence Durrell--an original question in the West's discussion of art, poetry, and language. To over-simplify matters, I think that Edward Said used art and literature to discuss what happens to people /outside/ of the works of literature. Therefore it mattered deeply in his sort of post-colonial argument whether or not Durrell's (or Delacroix's depictions) of the East rang "true" or "real" or "false" or "titillating." For Said, "real" people and "real" history were at stake. Said's argument is thirsty for Truth and Justice, written out in large lettering. And you are correct in pointing out how his background influences that thirst. I cannot speak for what Durrell intended to do with his works and his depictions of Alexandria and Alexandrians. The man is dead, and what he said about it all changed from time to time in complicated ways. But I can talk about what I find when I read Durrell's books. I find Durrell's works highly doubtful of humankind's ability to arrive at capitalized Truth and Justice. Durrell's writings sometimes use Gnosticism to convey this difficulty. Durrell's writings sometimes use a fictional history of the West's colonial adventures in the East to convey this ongoing confusion and mis-perception. Durrell's writings most often show alcohol as a refuge from the unslakable, maddening, and doubt-ridden thirst for Truth and Justice. I do not think that the /Quartet/ proves any truth more convincing than the impossibility of arriving at capitalized Truth or Justice. I think that the books show me a variety of characters coming into the conviction that truth and justice are local, subjective, and temporary. For some characters that discovery is a kind of freedom (Darley? Clea?). For other characters that discovery is license to do what they will (Da Capo? Nessim?). For some characters, this process of discovery is haunting and overwhelming and causes them to hurt themselves (Pursewarden?) or others (Justine?). A post-colonial approach seeks a literature that can tell Truth about an "authentic" East. By contrast, Durrell makes a literature that despairs of telling truth about an "authentic" East or an "authentic" West. Early on, in the /Quartet/, Durrell's despair seems to come from an inability to see or talk about the "real world." That might or might not be an epicurean phase. Narouz the Copt thirsts for Truth and Authenticity like a Palestinian seeking the Truth about his homeland, and his tortured soul would be an interesting character for these post-colonial and political critics if he were created by a less-skeptical, more political writer. Late in his day, in the /Quintet/, Durrell seems to have arrived at a bittersweet acceptance that, never-mind the "seeing" or "talking," the reality of the "real world" itself is a debatable point. That would make for an obvious lack of harmony between the viewpoints and the writings of Edward Said and Lawrence Durrell. I am skeptical (!) that we will gain much more ground than that, but I can always listen. Pressing on-- C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Sun Jan 31 08:48:58 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 11:48:58 -0500 Subject: [ilds] pinching Spengler Message-ID: <4B65B47A.6070904@utc.edu> Like others, I often neglect to include /The Revolt of Aphrodite/ in my thinking about Durrell's writings. The following made me hungry for clams and beer and a long afternoon with /Tunc/ et /Nunquam/. The time is some forty years back. The loss of Claude shadows Durrell's remarks, I think. Charles ***** http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/09/13/specials/durrell-despair.html > March 20, 1970 > Durrell in Despair Over Future of Man > By ALDEN WHITMAN > > Aut tunc, aut nunquam," said Lawrence Durrell in perfect ancient Latin > as he described yesterday a novelist's foreboding a world doom. > "Either then or never," he translated from "The Satyricon," indicating > that "never" is virtually upon us all because of our newly acquired > technological capacity for self-destruction. > > The 58-year-old author of "The Alexandrian Quartet" was also reciting > his Petronius because the title of his new book, which E.P. Dutton is > issuing this week, is "Nunquam." It is a sequel to "Tunc," published > here two years ago. > > Mr. Durrell, who is British and who thus pronounces his name "Durrl," > is in the United States from his home in Nimes, in Provence, to > promote the book. One form of this will be a reading from the novel > Monday evening at the Poetry Center of the Young Men's Hebrew > Association, Lexington Avenue and 92d Street. > > Spearing a fried clam from his luncheon plate, Mr. Durrell said that > his fears for civilization sprang from man's ability to snuff himself > out with nuclear devices; or change himself into a conglomeration of > insentient monsters by tampering with the genetic code. > > "We may all become monsters," the author said dourly as he swigged his > beer and contemplated another clam. > > The only hope that the writer sees is that man can recover his wits in > time to avert disaster. "We should pray for rain," he prescribed in > allusion to a passage in "The Satyricon" that suggests, he said, that > sometimes rains falls in response to pious supplications. > > Mr. Durrell, a short, burly man with a large head, conceded that his > doomsday philosophy was not original. "Nobody nowadays reads Oswald > Spengler, the German philosopher who wrote "The Decline of the West," > he said between puffs on his Gitane cigarette, "so I can pinch his ideas." > > The writer blinked his hazel eyes and turned the conversation to love, > about which he has been thought an expert because of the sexuality in > "The Alexandria Quartet." He proved coruscating about Anglo-Saxon love. > > "Its sentimentality disguises its brutality," he asserted. "Britons > and Americans weep over dogs and allow children to starve. This is not > conceivable in a Mediterranean culture." > > Far better, Mr. Durrell went on, "to weep over children and allow dogs > to starve." > > "That's the humane and tender attitude." > > Over coffee, Mr. Durrell took the opportunity to say a word about > himself. Observing that critics have suggested that his fictive > characters are terribly complex, he said that this was wrong. > > "Essentially, I'm a writer of shadow plays," he said. "My characters > are all one-dimensional; but I play with them in different lights, and > that gives them the appearance of depth." > > Mr. Durrell, who is also noted for his travel writing, said that he > would like to do the United States, perhaps with his brother, Gerald, > also a writer. > > At the moment, though, he's here for just a fortnight, with trips to > Chicago and the West Coast to see his old friend, Henry Miller. And to > Princeton, too. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Sun Jan 31 13:35:29 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 16:35:29 -0500 Subject: [ilds] pinching Spengler In-Reply-To: References: <4B65B47A.6070904@utc.edu> Message-ID: <4B65F7A1.1070409@utc.edu> Bruce Redwine wrote: > Good interview. Was it in the Oyster Bar in the basement of Grand Central? Also makes me hungry for clams and Spengler, along with a pint or two. > > Yes--I like the suggestion about Grand Central--I can recall discovering that bar late at night while wandering one cold December. C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Sun Jan 31 13:44:27 2010 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 16:44:27 -0500 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <1497A848-E540-48B7-A36D-83031317FCDB@earthlink.net> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> <5E4FBD1E-A258-497E-8BA3-6C0391F4D7BC@earthlink.net> <4B637C80.6090804@utc.edu> <1497A848-E540-48B7-A36D-83031317FCDB@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4B65F9BB.7010001@utc.edu> Bruce Redwine wrote: > > As many have observed, I too see his greatness in some way attached > to/ Kitsch./ I'm thinking here of how he can elevate ordinary objects > into something extraordinary and memorable: a watch-key, a scent, an > idiom, a refrain, /jamais de la vie, /a summer frock, a few hairs on a > death mask, those "effects" of one's life, etc. Durrell creates a > whole ambiance out of small, simple things. How does he do this? By > not talking too much and just suggesting: the old truism about > showing and not telling. That is in part his inheritance from Cavafy, eh? The miscellaneous furniture of our lives--an old wicker chair, a jar of olives &c.--suddenly can show whole biographies, whole histories. C&c. -- ******************************************** Charles L. Sligh Assistant Professor Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga charles-sligh at utc.edu ******************************************** From juliealisa.kobayashi at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 10:39:16 2010 From: juliealisa.kobayashi at gmail.com (J. A. Kobayashi) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 10:39:16 -0800 Subject: [ilds] pinching Spengler In-Reply-To: <4B65B47A.6070904@utc.edu> References: <4B65B47A.6070904@utc.edu> Message-ID: <4f26a15b1001311039x5afa0016uc83eced064188478@mail.gmail.com> Charles et al., I'm writing my senior thesis at Reed College on *The Revolt of Aphrodite*, including extensive sections on Oswald Spengler's *The Decline of the West*and Otto Rank's *Art and Artist* as source material (there will be smaller sections explicating all of Durrell's many references in his novel). I intend to relate all of the above to Adolfo Bioy Casares' *The Invention of Morel*. A more precise statement of the thesis topic is that it will be on the feminist implications of scientific and filmic immortality ideologies in * Tunc*, *Nunquam*, and *The Invention of Morel*, under late capitalism. Durrell said something absolutely fascinating on the topic in an interview: " What was concerning me about our culture was precisely the doing down of woman who is after all the basic brick; if we have any future it depends on her. The most critical part of our civilization is not an atom bomb at all but over-population. But basically from an affective point of view the kind of children that we?re going to make are going to be pretty sterilized if women cannot be more respected and if their role cannot be more combined with complete freedom, with also a functional freedom as the matriarch of society." Those statements are pretty progressive and I think that this attitude is reflected in *The Revolt* in a number of ways, so much so that I think that it has a lot of light to bring to more draconian literature and cinema with similar manifest content but that collaborate with the male gaze to a far greater extent. Since *The Invention of Morel* was inspired by Casares' obsession with silent film siren Louise Brooks my thesis will also draw upon some film relevant film criticism. In addition, I have been delving a bit into the dual literary and cinematic traditions that take as their subject female automata. Durrell's construction of The Firm as well (especially to the extent that his conception of it and its influence in the world relies upon Petronius Arbiter's description of the Roman empire in the *Satyricon)* constitutes a complex, benignly equivocal, and creative critique of the state of international capitalism during the period in which he wrote *The Revolt*, in the context of previous stages of human civilization, a fact which would most likely have been ignored by Edward Said and would be ignored by Terry Eagleton, both of whom have probably neither read anything that Durrell wrote following *The Alexandria Quartet*. Having already begun working on all of this, even though it is not due until May 2011, I have been finding the project particularly exciting and rewarding, and have certainly not been frustrated because there has been no prior thesis or book length criticism on *The Revolt*. Finally, I of course have no clue what OMG's theme will be next year but felt that now might be a good time to ask: does it accept undergraduate submissions? I am almost %100 sure that my college would provide me with a full grant to attend and present at it and I would love to do so. Best wishes, Julie P.S. There was an error in my last post to this list. The word "same" should have been "that" in order to eliminate object confusion. Even better, the entire descriptive modifier "of the same name" could be replaced with "that was named after that phrase in *The Quartet*." On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Charles Sligh wrote: > Like others, I often neglect to include /The Revolt of Aphrodite/ in my > thinking about Durrell's writings. > > The following made me hungry for clams and beer and a long afternoon > with /Tunc/ et /Nunquam/. > > The time is some forty years back. > > The loss of Claude shadows Durrell's remarks, I think. > > Charles > > ***** > > http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/09/13/specials/durrell-despair.html > > March 20, 1970 > > Durrell in Despair Over Future of Man > > By ALDEN WHITMAN > > > > Aut tunc, aut nunquam," said Lawrence Durrell in perfect ancient Latin > > as he described yesterday a novelist's foreboding a world doom. > > "Either then or never," he translated from "The Satyricon," indicating > > that "never" is virtually upon us all because of our newly acquired > > technological capacity for self-destruction. > > > > The 58-year-old author of "The Alexandrian Quartet" was also reciting > > his Petronius because the title of his new book, which E.P. Dutton is > > issuing this week, is "Nunquam." It is a sequel to "Tunc," published > > here two years ago. > > > > Mr. Durrell, who is British and who thus pronounces his name "Durrl," > > is in the United States from his home in Nimes, in Provence, to > > promote the book. One form of this will be a reading from the novel > > Monday evening at the Poetry Center of the Young Men's Hebrew > > Association, Lexington Avenue and 92d Street. > > > > Spearing a fried clam from his luncheon plate, Mr. Durrell said that > > his fears for civilization sprang from man's ability to snuff himself > > out with nuclear devices; or change himself into a conglomeration of > > insentient monsters by tampering with the genetic code. > > > > "We may all become monsters," the author said dourly as he swigged his > > beer and contemplated another clam. > > > > The only hope that the writer sees is that man can recover his wits in > > time to avert disaster. "We should pray for rain," he prescribed in > > allusion to a passage in "The Satyricon" that suggests, he said, that > > sometimes rains falls in response to pious supplications. > > > > Mr. Durrell, a short, burly man with a large head, conceded that his > > doomsday philosophy was not original. "Nobody nowadays reads Oswald > > Spengler, the German philosopher who wrote "The Decline of the West," > > he said between puffs on his Gitane cigarette, "so I can pinch his > ideas." > > > > The writer blinked his hazel eyes and turned the conversation to love, > > about which he has been thought an expert because of the sexuality in > > "The Alexandria Quartet." He proved coruscating about Anglo-Saxon love. > > > > "Its sentimentality disguises its brutality," he asserted. "Britons > > and Americans weep over dogs and allow children to starve. This is not > > conceivable in a Mediterranean culture." > > > > Far better, Mr. Durrell went on, "to weep over children and allow dogs > > to starve." > > > > "That's the humane and tender attitude." > > > > Over coffee, Mr. Durrell took the opportunity to say a word about > > himself. Observing that critics have suggested that his fictive > > characters are terribly complex, he said that this was wrong. > > > > "Essentially, I'm a writer of shadow plays," he said. "My characters > > are all one-dimensional; but I play with them in different lights, and > > that gives them the appearance of depth." > > > > Mr. Durrell, who is also noted for his travel writing, said that he > > would like to do the United States, perhaps with his brother, Gerald, > > also a writer. > > > > At the moment, though, he's here for just a fortnight, with trips to > > Chicago and the West Coast to see his old friend, Henry Miller. And to > > Princeton, too. > > > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100131/4076c9c0/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jan 31 13:06:06 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 13:06:06 -0800 Subject: [ilds] durrell & kitsch In-Reply-To: <4B637C80.6090804@utc.edu> References: <4B620D1E.6070306@utc.edu> <7BCC5061-0B90-4465-91DE-E2BE1059DD8B@earthlink.net> <4B62F216.1050302@utc.edu> <4B62F53C.4000208@utc.edu> <824580C3-8D96-4EFD-A789-8D1EA835936E@earthlink.net> <5E4FBD1E-A258-497E-8BA3-6C0391F4D7BC@earthlink.net> <4B637C80.6090804@utc.edu> Message-ID: <1497A848-E540-48B7-A36D-83031317FCDB@earthlink.net> Charles, The notion of kitsch is complicated and simply calling it "bad taste" is obviously not sufficient, nor identifying it with "high" or "low brow" culture. We probably need a definition here, but like pornography, I think we know kitsch "when we see it," although things are getting fuzzy nowadays, so I'll not attempt one. Whatever the definition, falsity and falsehood are, I think, at the heart of the world of kitsch. You're right. It can be a "policing term." Perhaps in the way an English teacher will write "trite" on the margin of a student's essay (experiences which I still shudder to recall). And, as you note, the term has lost some of its force. Back in the sixties, Pop Art probably contributed to that process, when Warhol turned the trite and commonplace into a form of art. The whole "collectibles" movement also seems to go in the direction of making valuable what was once considered cheap and ordinary (baseball cards, Beatles's posters, old toys, etc). This is not what we're dealing with in Durrell, however. Durrell is never trite, never simply ordinary, and never commonplace ? just the opposite. He is often "precious" in the sense of being too refined, too elegant, too "arty," if you will. This is what rubs some the wrong way, especially in the Quartet, which abounds with art, artists, and much talk about both. But this is only part of the story. As many have observed, I too see his greatness in some way attached to Kitsch. I'm thinking here of how he can elevate ordinary objects into something extraordinary and memorable: a watch-key, a scent, an idiom, a refrain, jamais de la vie, a summer frock, a few hairs on a death mask, those "effects" of one's life, etc. Durrell creates a whole ambiance out of small, simple things. How does he do this? By not talking too much and just suggesting: the old truism about showing and not telling. I don't take Pursewarden's admonitions seriously. I think Durrell's motives in making him self-critical are, in fact, a clever ploy to get the reader to take him seriously. A double irony. To pontificate about life and art with a straightface will make one appear pompous (Gerald Durrell's version of Larry), but to do that with a self-deprecating, "sardonic smile" makes people perk up and think that maybe there is something to those slick sayings of Ludwig Pursewarden. Isn't that what you and others have claimed Durrell himself is during his interviews? Making big claims and joking all the way to the bank or the wine bar? Now, what do I consider an example of Pursewarden's "kitsch genius?" E.g., the chapter in Clea containing Ludwig's "Conversations with Brother Ass," where we read, "Keats, the word-drunk, searched for resonance among vowel-sounds which might give him an echo of his inner self. He sounded the empty coffin of his early death with patient knuckles, listening to the dull resonances given off by his certain immortality" (AQ, 755-56). The paragraph continues with similar poetic summations of Byron, Donne, Pope, Eliot, Blake, Whitman, Longfellow, Auden, and Lawrence, who "was a limb of the genuine oak tree." All this is amusing, vivid, and smart ? too smart. We are probably meant to read these aper?u as examples of Pursewarden's brilliance. You may say, as Clea does at the end of Justine, that these are the words of "a man tortured beyond endurance by the lack of tenderness in the world?" They strike me, however, as being facile, inauthentic, definitely not "genuine," a kind of parlor game wit, which Durrell himself often demonstrated during his interviews. It's a kind of "kitsch," as Marcus says. Bruce On Jan 29, 2010, at 4:25 PM, Charles Sligh wrote: > Bruce Redwine wrote: >> A further note on kitsch, which is a fascinating topic. I'm thinking >> of art and a book that Gillo Dorfles published back in 1969, /Kitsch: >> The World of Bad Taste./ Many of Dorfles's examples have a glossy >> quality. French and English "Orientalism," as seen in 19th century >> paintings, also has this character, which so annoyed Edward Said (a >> Palestinian who grew up in Egypt) that he put such a painting on the >> cover of his famous book, /Orientalism/ (1978). De Mille's /Ten >> Commandments/ (1956) is an extended study in kitsch ? unintentionally, >> of course. I think Marcus has something like this in mind when he >> refers to Pursewarden's "kitsch genius." Ludwig's sayings are glossy, >> very attractive, and highly literate ? but suspect under closer >> examination. > Yes--here I think I follow. > > A critic uses "Kitsch" as a policing term. > > Funny how the use of the term "Kitsch" in a negative sense now sounds > antiquated, prissy. > > There have been a number of artistic revolutions since one could wield > the term in a dismissive way, and the borderlines between "popular" and > "mass appeal" and "high art" are not quite so clear. > > Kitsch art--self-conscious kitsch and naive kitsch--in some ways holds a > sexier cache than the works that artistic mandarin and literary brahman > once praised. > >> Ludwig's sayings are glossy, very attractive, and highly literate ? >> but suspect under closer examination. > > Yes, and yes, and yes--but I would ask for a follow up about that > "suspect" business, Bruce. > > That implies that we have not already paid attention to Pursewarden. He > writes again and again throughout the /Quartet/ that his readers are > taking him far too seriously. He asks that his readers take a knife to > him &c. &c. > > I think that we have paid better attention, no? > > Thanks for all of this posting-- > > Charles > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100131/7eb3c73a/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jan 31 13:26:38 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 13:26:38 -0800 Subject: [ilds] pinching Spengler In-Reply-To: <4B65B47A.6070904@utc.edu> References: <4B65B47A.6070904@utc.edu> Message-ID: Good interview. Was it in the Oyster Bar in the basement of Grand Central? Also makes me hungry for clams and Spengler, along with a pint or two. Bruce On Jan 31, 2010, at 8:48 AM, Charles Sligh wrote: > Like others, I often neglect to include /The Revolt of Aphrodite/ in my > thinking about Durrell's writings. > > The following made me hungry for clams and beer and a long afternoon > with /Tunc/ et /Nunquam/. > > The time is some forty years back. > > The loss of Claude shadows Durrell's remarks, I think. > > Charles > > ***** > > http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/09/13/specials/durrell-despair.html >> March 20, 1970 >> Durrell in Despair Over Future of Man >> By ALDEN WHITMAN >> >> Aut tunc, aut nunquam," said Lawrence Durrell in perfect ancient Latin >> as he described yesterday a novelist's foreboding a world doom. >> "Either then or never," he translated from "The Satyricon," indicating >> that "never" is virtually upon us all because of our newly acquired >> technological capacity for self-destruction. >> >> The 58-year-old author of "The Alexandrian Quartet" was also reciting >> his Petronius because the title of his new book, which E.P. Dutton is >> issuing this week, is "Nunquam." It is a sequel to "Tunc," published >> here two years ago. >> >> Mr. Durrell, who is British and who thus pronounces his name "Durrl," >> is in the United States from his home in Nimes, in Provence, to >> promote the book. One form of this will be a reading from the novel >> Monday evening at the Poetry Center of the Young Men's Hebrew >> Association, Lexington Avenue and 92d Street. >> >> Spearing a fried clam from his luncheon plate, Mr. Durrell said that >> his fears for civilization sprang from man's ability to snuff himself >> out with nuclear devices; or change himself into a conglomeration of >> insentient monsters by tampering with the genetic code. >> >> "We may all become monsters," the author said dourly as he swigged his >> beer and contemplated another clam. >> >> The only hope that the writer sees is that man can recover his wits in >> time to avert disaster. "We should pray for rain," he prescribed in >> allusion to a passage in "The Satyricon" that suggests, he said, that >> sometimes rains falls in response to pious supplications. >> >> Mr. Durrell, a short, burly man with a large head, conceded that his >> doomsday philosophy was not original. "Nobody nowadays reads Oswald >> Spengler, the German philosopher who wrote "The Decline of the West," >> he said between puffs on his Gitane cigarette, "so I can pinch his ideas." >> >> The writer blinked his hazel eyes and turned the conversation to love, >> about which he has been thought an expert because of the sexuality in >> "The Alexandria Quartet." He proved coruscating about Anglo-Saxon love. >> >> "Its sentimentality disguises its brutality," he asserted. "Britons >> and Americans weep over dogs and allow children to starve. This is not >> conceivable in a Mediterranean culture." >> >> Far better, Mr. Durrell went on, "to weep over children and allow dogs >> to starve." >> >> "That's the humane and tender attitude." >> >> Over coffee, Mr. Durrell took the opportunity to say a word about >> himself. Observing that critics have suggested that his fictive >> characters are terribly complex, he said that this was wrong. >> >> "Essentially, I'm a writer of shadow plays," he said. "My characters >> are all one-dimensional; but I play with them in different lights, and >> that gives them the appearance of depth." >> >> Mr. Durrell, who is also noted for his travel writing, said that he >> would like to do the United States, perhaps with his brother, Gerald, >> also a writer. >> >> At the moment, though, he's here for just a fortnight, with trips to >> Chicago and the West Coast to see his old friend, Henry Miller. And to >> Princeton, too. > > > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** From juliealisa.kobayashi at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 15:25:12 2010 From: juliealisa.kobayashi at gmail.com (J. A. Kobayashi) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 15:25:12 -0800 Subject: [ilds] pinching Spengler In-Reply-To: <4B65F7A1.1070409@utc.edu> References: <4B65B47A.6070904@utc.edu> <4B65F7A1.1070409@utc.edu> Message-ID: <4f26a15b1001311525p39bff5cdn10da2e1ea062aaa@mail.gmail.com> Bruce, The quote is from page 161 of *Lawrence Durrell: Conversations* but I don't have access to the book right now--just a transcription of everything I could find in it that related to *The Revolt of Aphrodite*. In addition, pages 153-163 are missing from the Google books preview, so I can't tell you where the interview was. I CAN tell you that I'd never heard of Spengler before reading Durrell's references to him an interview (possibly the one I quoted from in my post), so I take it that he (Spengler) may have once been much more of a household name than he presently is. On the other hand, at least when I borrowed *The Decline of the West* from my library it had been checked out once last year, the last time *Art and Artist* had been checked out was 1971. I will be sure to check out the Grand Central Oyster Bar as well for "research purposes" (since, as it happen, I'll be departing for a month long trip to Providence, RI and NYC in one week). Charles, thank you very much for the response to and forwarding of my inquiry in regard to possible OMG submission. You should be receiving my reply shortly. Best wishes, Julie On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Charles Sligh wrote: > Bruce Redwine wrote: > > Good interview. Was it in the Oyster Bar in the basement of Grand > Central? Also makes me hungry for clams and Spengler, along with a pint or > two. > > > > > Yes--I like the suggestion about Grand Central--I can recall discovering > that bar late at night while wandering one cold December. > > C&c. > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100131/d6a4fefd/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jan 31 16:40:00 2010 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 16:40:00 -0800 Subject: [ilds] pinching Spengler In-Reply-To: <4f26a15b1001311525p39bff5cdn10da2e1ea062aaa@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B65B47A.6070904@utc.edu> <4B65F7A1.1070409@utc.edu> <4f26a15b1001311525p39bff5cdn10da2e1ea062aaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Julie, Thanks for the reference. Spengler has fallen out of favor for about the last sixty or seventy years at least (along with Arnold Toynbee, another historian with a sweeping theory), so it's no surprise you haven't hear of him, nor your parents or grandparents for that matter. He's treated nowadays as a curiosity, like Siggy Freud. If you want a recent assessment of Spengler and his place in Modernism, see Cathy Gere's Knossos and the Prophets of Modernism (Chicago 2009). The book has problems, but it's very interesting, and she brings a lot together. I can't help you with The Revolt of Aphrodite. I haven't read it ? couldn't get past the first few pages. Good luck on the paper. It's good to see new readers interested in what old LD was up to. Bruce On Jan 31, 2010, at 3:25 PM, J. A. Kobayashi wrote: > Bruce, > > The quote is from page 161 of Lawrence Durrell: Conversations but I don't have access to the book right now--just a transcription of everything I could find in it that related to The Revolt of Aphrodite. In addition, pages 153-163 are missing from the Google books preview, so I can't tell you where the interview was. I CAN tell you that I'd never heard of Spengler before reading Durrell's references to him an interview (possibly the one I quoted from in my post), so I take it that he (Spengler) may have once been much more of a household name than he presently is. On the other hand, at least when I borrowed The Decline of the West from my library it had been checked out once last year, the last time Art and Artist had been checked out was 1971. I will be sure to check out the Grand Central Oyster Bar as well for "research purposes" (since, as it happen, I'll be departing for a month long trip to Providence, RI and NYC in one week). Charles, thank you very much for the response to and forwarding of my inquiry in regard to possible OMG submission. You should be receiving my reply shortly. > > Best wishes, > > Julie > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Charles Sligh wrote: > Bruce Redwine wrote: > > Good interview. Was it in the Oyster Bar in the basement of Grand Central? Also makes me hungry for clams and Spengler, along with a pint or two. > > > > > Yes--I like the suggestion about Grand Central--I can recall discovering > that bar late at night while wandering one cold December. > > C&c. > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100131/fe03f5a4/attachment.html From jtriley at unca.edu Sun Jan 31 18:21:42 2010 From: jtriley at unca.edu (Jacob Riley) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 21:21:42 -0500 Subject: [ilds] pinching Spengler In-Reply-To: <4f26a15b1001311525p39bff5cdn10da2e1ea062aaa@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B65B47A.6070904@utc.edu> <4B65F7A1.1070409@utc.edu> <4f26a15b1001311525p39bff5cdn10da2e1ea062aaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: J.A., If i remember correctly, undergraduates can submit something to the OMG conference. I submitted an abstract of my senior thesis on Lawrence Durrell, which is on Lawrence Durrell's Avignon Quintet and Menippean Satire, though i still haven't received an answer yet. Good to see someone else working on Durrell--personally, i got burnt out on the guy after researching and writing for several months. Best of luck! -Jacob On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 6:25 PM, J. A. Kobayashi wrote: > Bruce, > > The quote is from page 161 of Lawrence Durrell:? Conversations but I don't > have access to the book right now--just a transcription of everything I > could find in it that related to The Revolt of Aphrodite.? In addition, > pages 153-163 are missing from the Google books preview, so I can't tell you > where the interview was.? I CAN tell you that I'd never heard of Spengler > before reading Durrell's references to him an interview (possibly the one I > quoted from in my post), so I take it that he (Spengler) may have once been > much more of a household name than he presently is.? On the other hand, at > least when I borrowed The Decline of the West from my library it had been > checked out once last year, the last time Art and Artist had been checked > out was 1971.? I will be sure to check out the Grand Central Oyster Bar as > well for "research purposes" (since, as it happen, I'll be departing for a > month long trip to Providence, RI and NYC in one week).? Charles, thank you > very much for the response to and forwarding of my inquiry in regard to > possible OMG submission.? You should be receiving my reply shortly. > > Best wishes, > > Julie > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Charles Sligh > wrote: >> >> Bruce Redwine wrote: >> > Good interview. ?Was it in the Oyster Bar in the basement of Grand >> > Central? ?Also makes me hungry for clams and Spengler, along with a pint or >> > two. >> > >> > >> Yes--I like the suggestion about Grand Central--I can recall discovering >> that bar late at night while wandering one cold December. >> >> C&c. >> >> -- >> ******************************************** >> Charles L. Sligh >> Assistant Professor >> Department of English >> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga >> charles-sligh at utc.edu >> ******************************************** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > From juliealisa.kobayashi at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 18:41:37 2010 From: juliealisa.kobayashi at gmail.com (J. A. Kobayashi) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:41:37 -0800 Subject: [ilds] pinching Spengler In-Reply-To: References: <4B65B47A.6070904@utc.edu> <4B65F7A1.1070409@utc.edu> <4f26a15b1001311525p39bff5cdn10da2e1ea062aaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4f26a15b1001311841s5b012e3dy3fe26d5d5efb1096@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Jacob, Having read *The Alexandria Quartet* seven times since discovering Lawrence Durrell seven years ago and having also written a twenty page long critical history of it for a semester long Junior Seminar course without getting burnt out on him or his work, I sincerely doubt that that would be the case for this thesis but one can never be sure (although I do think I'm sure). It is great to hear that there are other undergraduates working on him, I remember having reading a post of yours once before through this discussion group and thinking the same thing then as well. Best of luck to you too! --Julie On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Jacob Riley wrote: > J.A., > > If i remember correctly, undergraduates can submit something to the > OMG conference. I submitted an abstract of my senior thesis on > Lawrence Durrell, which is on Lawrence Durrell's Avignon Quintet and > Menippean Satire, though i still haven't received an answer yet. Good > to see someone else working on Durrell--personally, i got burnt out on > the guy after researching and writing for several months. Best of > luck! > > -Jacob > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 6:25 PM, J. A. Kobayashi > wrote: > > Bruce, > > > > The quote is from page 161 of Lawrence Durrell: Conversations but I > don't > > have access to the book right now--just a transcription of everything I > > could find in it that related to The Revolt of Aphrodite. In addition, > > pages 153-163 are missing from the Google books preview, so I can't tell > you > > where the interview was. I CAN tell you that I'd never heard of Spengler > > before reading Durrell's references to him an interview (possibly the one > I > > quoted from in my post), so I take it that he (Spengler) may have once > been > > much more of a household name than he presently is. On the other hand, > at > > least when I borrowed The Decline of the West from my library it had been > > checked out once last year, the last time Art and Artist had been checked > > out was 1971. I will be sure to check out the Grand Central Oyster Bar > as > > well for "research purposes" (since, as it happen, I'll be departing for > a > > month long trip to Providence, RI and NYC in one week). Charles, thank > you > > very much for the response to and forwarding of my inquiry in regard to > > possible OMG submission. You should be receiving my reply shortly. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Julie > > > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Charles Sligh > > wrote: > >> > >> Bruce Redwine wrote: > >> > Good interview. Was it in the Oyster Bar in the basement of Grand > >> > Central? Also makes me hungry for clams and Spengler, along with a > pint or > >> > two. > >> > > >> > > >> Yes--I like the suggestion about Grand Central--I can recall discovering > >> that bar late at night while wandering one cold December. > >> > >> C&c. > >> > >> -- > >> ******************************************** > >> Charles L. Sligh > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of English > >> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > >> charles-sligh at utc.edu > >> ******************************************** > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> ILDS mailing list > >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ILDS mailing list > > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100131/5851e8b1/attachment.html From eahunger at charter.net Sun Jan 31 19:05:04 2010 From: eahunger at charter.net (Edward Hungerford) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 19:05:04 -0800 Subject: [ilds] Said and philosophy; Thanks for Charles's essay on truth and justice. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Excellent discussions, all of you. I learned quite a lot from this issue (Vol 34, #18) of the Durrell newsletter. Several good points were made, I think, about "kitsch" and whether Durrell's writings sometimes (usually?) would constitute kitsch to a given critic--- such as Said. (I too think Said's position too far toward one side of the argument. Said wants to make fiction into reality, or as Charles says, to measure up to a lack of truth and justice on the part of the novelist.) I also am enjoying Bruce Redwine's position as an informed estimator, too. (one with a well-rounded classical literary position.) He adds and provokes equally to the total exchange, as do others who have contributed to this discussion. Charles Sligh's message (in nos. 3 & 6 of this exchange) constitutes a fine brief essay on what is both appealing and of lasting value (truth) in Durrell's writings, particularly the AQ.. I would like to see Charles expand these "summary" (brief) remarks into a major scholarly article. We really need more such overviews from members on the present Durrell list. Thanks. Ed H ======================================================================== = On Jan 31, 2010, at 12:00 PM, ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca wrote: > Send ILDS mailing list submissions to > ilds at lists.uvic.ca > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca > > You can reach the person managing the list at > ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: The most political of the novels (Bruce Redwine) > 2. Re: The most political of the novels (Marc Piel) > 3. Re: durrell & kitsch (Charles Sligh) > 4. Re: The most political of the novels (Bruce Redwine) > 5. Re: durrell & kitsch (Bruce Redwine) > 6. Re: durrell & kitsch (Charles Sligh) > 7. pinching Spengler (Charles Sligh) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:43:51 -0800 > From: Bruce Redwine > Subject: Re: [ilds] The most political of the novels > To: "Charles-Sligh at utc.edu" , > "ilds at lists.uvic.ca" > Cc: "ilds at lists.uvic.ca" > Message-ID: <7A42ADA4-022A-4782-BBB0-02B9F1A5F99F at earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > This is an interesting Israeli perspective on Durrell's political > ideas about the Middle East. Durrell advocates a Jewish state to > counterbalance Arab hegemony in the region. Haag makes this point. > Matt Rees apparently approves. So, another reason for Durrell being > unpopular in the Arab world and may account for Said's animosity > towards him. Edward Said was an active member of the PLO. > > > Bruce > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 29, 2010, at 6:30 PM, Charles Sligh > wrote: > >> Mr. Rees stumbles in his plot summary, but the recognition of >> Durrell in >> the Guardian list is noteworthy. >> >> C&c. >> >> *** >> >>> >>> Matt Rees's top 10 novels set in the Arab world >>> >>> The Jerusalem-based crime writer picks novels that offer 'a much more >>> profound contact' with this region than the news >>> >>> * Matt Rees >>> * guardian.co.uk Wednesday 13 January 2010 >>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/jan/13/matt-rees-novels-arab- >>> world >> >>> 8. Mountolive by Lawrence Durrell >>> >>> The most political of the novels in The Alexandria Quartet. But >>> because it's Durrell, it also manages to be sexual and seedy. A >>> British diplomat tells his career story, up to the Zionist gun- >>> running >>> going on while he conducts an affair with an Arab woman. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> ******************************************** >> Charles L. Sligh >> Assistant Professor >> Department of English >> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga >> charles-sligh at utc.edu >> ******************************************** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > ------------------------------ >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jan 29, 2010, at 6:30 PM, Charles Sligh >> wrote: >> >>> Mr. Rees stumbles in his plot summary, but the recognition of >>> Durrell in >>> the Guardian list is noteworthy. >>> >>> C&c. >>> >>> *** >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ******************************************** >>> Charles L. Sligh >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of English >>> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga >>> charles-sligh at utc.edu >>> ******************************************** >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ILDS mailing list >>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> >> > >>>> >>>> ******************************************** > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 20:29:09 -0800 > From: Bruce Redwine > Subject: Re: [ilds] durrell & kitsch > To: marcpiel at interdesign.fr, ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Cc: Bruce Redwine > Message-ID: <0A1EBB32-0D81-4779-B122-B52E72F2B148 at earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Marc, > > Kitsch probably is in the eye of the beholder. You have your idea of > kitsch, and I have mine. A question, would you consider Delacroix's > or Chass?riau's paintings about the Middle East kitsch? Or do you > think them high art? I specifically refer to "The Death of > Sardanapalus" (1827; Louvre) or "Harem Interior" (1854; Strasbourg, > Mus?e des Beaux-Arts)? Edward Said would have probably considered > these dramatic and romanticized depictions of his culture a kind of > kitsch, which he found deplorable and objectionable. Now, my point is > that this type of painting is not far removed from some of the ways > Durrell depicts Alexandria and Egypt: glossy, sexy, delectable, > titillating, romanticized, and probably false because of its limited > scope. This is a kind of literature that Said calls "classy," > appealing to Western "high-brow" sensibilities (as Delacroix and > Chass?riau did during their time), and, I dare say, Steven Marcus > would have called "kitsch," had he generalized his c! > omment about Pursewarden to the Quartet as a whole. Do I believe > this is fair and accurate? I don't know but I strongly suspect not. > This whole discussion is simply trying to understand the problem. > > > Bruce > > > On Jan 30, 2010, at 9:27 AM, Marc Piel wrote: > >> Hello Bruce >> Maybe Kitch is in the eye of the beholder. >> Probably I have a professional deformation. Don't >> forget I am a designer where form, function and >> esthetics are key in my perception. Maybe an >> Englishman can enjoy Camembert as much as a >> Frenchman can enjoy Fish&Chips. Maybe not. Maybe I >> just don't understand or that my irony does not >> accept the association of LD and kitch. For me >> they are opposites, but you said they were the >> same. Or did I really misunderstand? >> Marc >> >> Bruce Redwine a ?crit : >>> Thanks, Marc. I'm flattered to find myself in the unexpected >>> company of Steven Marcus and Edward Said. Perhaps you can present >>> an argument, rather than make declarations, ? la Ludwig Pursewarden? >>> >>> >>> Bruyce >>> >>> >>> On Jan 29, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Marc Piel wrote: >>> >>>> The word kitch is considered derogatory, denoting works executed to >>>> pander to popular demand alone and purely for commercial purposes >>>> rather than works created as self-expression by an artist (or >>>> professor). I invite everyone to reread this post carefully and >>>> see what a huge quantity of kitch there is in this post from Bruce. >>>> Marc >>>> >>>> Bruce Redwine a ?crit : >>>>> Sure, Charles. First, thanks for the excerpt from Marcus's >>>>> analysis of Seymour Glass. I like it. Here's my take on what >>>>> Marcus means by calling Pursewarden a "kitsch genius." A little >>>>> background. Steven Marcus was a colleague of Edward Said at >>>>> Columbia, both professors. You'll recall Said's comment on >>>>> Durrell, previously discussed on this List. Said dismissed >>>>> Durrell as a writer of "classy fiction" /(The World, the Text, and >>>>> the Critic/ [Cambridge 1983], 3). He tells the anecdote of going >>>>> to the Pentagon and talking to a college friend working in DOD >>>>> (Said graduated from Princeton and Harvard). This is during the >>>>> Vietnam War, and Said wants to understand the type of people >>>>> bombing the North. The friend defends his boss and says McNamara, >>>>> Secretary of Defense, has the /Quartet/ on his desk, ergo the >>>>> Secretary is an intellectual and no monster. Said scoffs at the >>>>> equation. I assume Marcus and Said exchanged ideas often, and I >>>>> take "kitsch" and "classy" as bein! > g >> synonymous. I would use the word pretentious in this context, for >> I'm rather fond of "kitsch," so long as you know what you're dealing >> with. Yes, kitsch does apply to the /Quartet,/ "marvelously" so, as >> you note, and yes, I agree, Marcus's usage is entirely negative. >>>>> I think Marcus is primarily talking about a failure in >>>>> presentation. Seymour fails as a character because he doesn't >>>>> live up to his billing. Salinger spends a lot of energy building >>>>> up this character, making him mysterious, creating an aura of >>>>> sainthood. When Seymour shows up, however, he's a letdown, a >>>>> flop, something of a "phony," as Holden Caulfield might say. This >>>>> may be what Marcus means, and this sense of kitsch can be extended >>>>> to Durrell's characterization of Pursewarden, whose great >>>>> reputation as the caustic author of /God Is a Humorist/ is >>>>> intriguing but whose occasional pronouncements on art and life >>>>> grow tiresome and pretentious. Durrell's best solution for >>>>> Pursewarden was to have him commit suicide in /Balthazar,/ like >>>>> Seymour's suicide in "A Perfect Day for Bananafish." >>>>> Unfortunately, Durrell later resurrected Ludwig in /Clea,/ where >>>>> we learn too much about his "genius" from a section of his >>>>> notebooks, where he sounds like Durrell himself delivering h! > is >> opinions on the course of English literature. >>>>> True, Durrell and Miller had a program for reforming English >>>>> literature, but are we to take this seriously? Highbrow (bad) vs. >>>>> lowbrow (good)? English priggishness (bad) vs. French earthiness >>>>> (good)? High Moderns (bad) vs. Jacobeans (good). Joyce (bad) vs. >>>>> Rabelais (good)? Are we to discount Joyce and Pound because they >>>>> knew their classics? Durrell scoffs at Joyce because he went back >>>>> to /The Odyssey/ to seek a new form /(Paris Review/ 1960). In >>>>> that interview in /PR,/ Durrell talks a lot about art and >>>>> literature. Does the average Frenchman really appreciate, in a >>>>> way an Englishman can't, a good Camembert as much as he (or she) >>>>> does a Picasso? Have the French really integrated art and >>>>> everyday living? I don't know, but I doubt it. All this talk >>>>> sounds "classy" and "kitschy" to me, something fundamentally >>>>> false. Which brings us back to our discussions about Durrell the >>>>> "wise" sage. >>>>> Bruce >>>>> On Jan 29, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Charles Sligh wrote: >>>>>> A last observation: >>>>>> >>>>>> I think that Steven Marcus hands down the "kitsch" verdict as a >>>>>> negative. >>>>>> >>>>>> Durrell (and Miller &c.) are not "highbrow" on the order to Joyce, >>>>>> Woolf, and the various American Equivalents of the High Moderns. >>>>>> >>>>>> But does that Marcus verdict really tell us anything >>>>>> new--especially >>>>>> when from early on Miller and Durrell are aligning themselves in >>>>>> opposition to the "high" modern line? >>>>>> >>>>>> The /Justine/ phenom (perfume line and movie) is marvelously >>>>>> kitsch. And >>>>>> Durrell writes his "Minor Mythologies" essay in order to break >>>>>> down the >>>>>> dividing lines between high and low literary art. >>>>>> >>>>>> C&c. >>>>>> >>>>>> *** >>>>>> >>>>>> Charles Sligh wrote: >>>>>>> I wonder what Durrell would make of the term "kitsch"? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I find one instance of the word in his writings: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "In Miller you have someone who has crossed the dividing line >>>>>>> between art and /Kitsch/ once and for all" (/The Happy Rock/ 3). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But what does that sentence mean? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Based on the matter of the previous sentence and word order, >>>>>>> does Miller >>>>>>> leave art (Hemingway, Dos Passos, and Faulkner) and plunge >>>>>>> forward with >>>>>>> fearless gusto into "Kitsch"? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is that a good thing here? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> By the evidence of the first /Tropic/, I am supposing that it >>>>>>> /is/ a >>>>>>> good thing--no more tea cups and doilies and polite library >>>>>>> lectures by >>>>>>> professors discussing James Joyce and Virginia Woolf for Miller >>>>>>> and his >>>>>>> readers. . . . > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100130/18458531/ > attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 09:52:02 -0500 > From: Charles Sligh > Subject: Re: [ilds] durrell & kitsch > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Cc: Bruce Redwine , > marcpiel at interdesign.fr > Message-ID: <4B659912.60303 at utc.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Bruce Redwine wrote: >> >> >> Now, my point is that this type of painting is not far removed >> from some of the ways Durrell depicts Alexandria and Egypt: >> glossy, sexy, delectable, titillating, romanticized, and >> probably false because of its limited scope. This is a kind >> of literature that Said calls "classy," appealing to Western >> "high-brow" sensibilities (as Delacroix and Chass?riau did >> during their time), and, I dare say, Steven Marcus would have >> called "kitsch," had he generalized his comment about >> Pursewarden to the /Quartet/ as a whole. Do I believe this is >> fair and accurate? I don't know but I strongly suspect not. >> This whole discussion is simply trying to understand the >> problem. >> >> >> > Thanks for Marc's and Bruce's efforts toward "understanding the > problem." I hope others will pitch in from their various points of > view. > > Bruce, I think you bring up something important here when you turn our > attention to "some of the ways Durrell depicts Alexandria and Egypt: > glossy, sexy, delectable, titillating, romanticized, and probably > false > because of its limited scope." > > And I think that description goes back to an original question--an > original question here in our list's continuing discussion of the > writings and life of Lawrence Durrell--an original question in the > West's discussion of art, poetry, and language. > > To over-simplify matters, I think that Edward Said used art and > literature to discuss what happens to people /outside/ of the works of > literature. Therefore it mattered deeply in his sort of post-colonial > argument whether or not Durrell's (or Delacroix's depictions) of the > East rang "true" or "real" or "false" or "titillating." For Said, > "real" people and "real" history were at stake. Said's argument is > thirsty for Truth and Justice, written out in large lettering. And you > are correct in pointing out how his background influences that thirst. > > I cannot speak for what Durrell intended to do with his works and his > depictions of Alexandria and Alexandrians. The man is dead, and what > he > said about it all changed from time to time in complicated ways. > > But I can talk about what I find when I read Durrell's books. > > I find Durrell's works highly doubtful of humankind's ability to arrive > at capitalized Truth and Justice. > > Durrell's writings sometimes use Gnosticism to convey this difficulty. > > Durrell's writings sometimes use a fictional history of the West's > colonial adventures in the East to convey this ongoing confusion and > mis-perception. > > Durrell's writings most often show alcohol as a refuge from the > unslakable, maddening, and doubt-ridden thirst for Truth and Justice. > > I do not think that the /Quartet/ proves any truth more convincing than > the impossibility of arriving at capitalized Truth or Justice. > > I think that the books show me a variety of characters coming into the > conviction that truth and justice are local, subjective, and temporary. > > For some characters that discovery is a kind of freedom (Darley? > Clea?). > > For other characters that discovery is license to do what they will (Da > Capo? Nessim?). > > For some characters, this process of discovery is haunting and > overwhelming and causes them to hurt themselves (Pursewarden?) or > others > (Justine?). > > A post-colonial approach seeks a literature that can tell Truth about > an > "authentic" East. > > By contrast, Durrell makes a literature that despairs of telling truth > about an "authentic" East or an "authentic" West. > > Early on, in the /Quartet/, Durrell's despair seems to come from an > inability to see or talk about the "real world." That might or might > not be an epicurean phase. > > Narouz the Copt thirsts for Truth and Authenticity like a Palestinian > seeking the Truth about his homeland, and his tortured soul would be an > interesting character for these post-colonial and political critics if > he were created by a less-skeptical, more political writer. > > Late in his day, in the /Quintet/, Durrell seems to have arrived at a > bittersweet acceptance that, never-mind the "seeing" or "talking," the > reality of the "real world" itself is a debatable point. > > That would make for an obvious lack of harmony between the viewpoints > and the writings of Edward Said and Lawrence Durrell. > > I am skeptical (!) that we will gain much more ground than that, but I > can always listen. > > Pressing on-- > > C&c. > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 11:48:58 -0500 > From: Charles Sligh > Subject: [ilds] pinching Spengler > To: "ilds at lists.uvic.ca" > Message-ID: <4B65B47A.6070904 at utc.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Like others, I often neglect to include /The Revolt of Aphrodite/ in my > thinking about Durrell's writings. > > The following made me hungry for clams and beer and a long afternoon > with /Tunc/ et /Nunquam/. > > The time is some forty years back. > > The loss of Claude shadows Durrell's remarks, I think. > > Charles > > ***** > > http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/09/13/specials/durrell-despair.html >> March 20, 1970 >> Durrell in Despair Over Future of Man >> By ALDEN WHITMAN >> >> Aut tunc, aut nunquam," said Lawrence Durrell in perfect ancient Latin >> as he described yesterday a novelist's foreboding a world doom. >> "Either then or never," he translated from "The Satyricon," indicating >> that "never" is virtually upon us all because of our newly acquired >> technological capacity for self-destruction. >> >> The 58-year-old author of "The Alexandrian Quartet" was also reciting >> his Petronius because the title of his new book, which E.P. Dutton is >> issuing this week, is "Nunquam." It is a sequel to "Tunc," published >> here two years ago. >> >> Mr. Durrell, who is British and who thus pronounces his name "Durrl," >> is in the United States from his home in Nimes, in Provence, to >> promote the book. One form of this will be a reading from the novel >> Monday evening at the Poetry Center of the Young Men's Hebrew >> Association, Lexington Avenue and 92d Street. >> >> Spearing a fried clam from his luncheon plate, Mr. Durrell said that >> his fears for civilization sprang from man's ability to snuff himself >> out with nuclear devices; or change himself into a conglomeration of >> insentient monsters by tampering with the genetic code. >> >> "We may all become monsters," the author said dourly as he swigged his >> beer and contemplated another clam. >> >> The only hope that the writer sees is that man can recover his wits in >> time to avert disaster. "We should pray for rain," he prescribed in >> allusion to a passage in "The Satyricon" that suggests, he said, that >> sometimes rains falls in response to pious supplications. >> >> Mr. Durrell, a short, burly man with a large head, conceded that his >> doomsday philosophy was not original. "Nobody nowadays reads Oswald >> Spengler, the German philosopher who wrote "The Decline of the West," >> he said between puffs on his Gitane cigarette, "so I can pinch his >> ideas." >> >> The writer blinked his hazel eyes and turned the conversation to love, >> about which he has been thought an expert because of the sexuality in >> "The Alexandria Quartet." He proved coruscating about Anglo-Saxon >> love. >> >> "Its sentimentality disguises its brutality," he asserted. "Britons >> and Americans weep over dogs and allow children to starve. This is not >> conceivable in a Mediterranean culture." >> >> Far better, Mr. Durrell went on, "to weep over children and allow dogs >> to starve." >> >> "That's the humane and tender attitude." >> >> Over coffee, Mr. Durrell took the opportunity to say a word about >> himself. Observing that critics have suggested that his fictive >> characters are terribly complex, he said that this was wrong. >> >> "Essentially, I'm a writer of shadow plays," he said. "My characters >> are all one-dimensional; but I play with them in different lights, and >> that gives them the appearance of depth." >> >> Mr. Durrell, who is also noted for his travel writing, said that he >> would like to do the United States, perhaps with his brother, Gerald, >> also a writer. >> >> At the moment, though, he's here for just a fortnight, with trips to >> Chicago and the West Coast to see his old friend, Henry Miller. And to >> Princeton, too. > > > > -- > ******************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > charles-sligh at utc.edu > ******************************************** > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > End of ILDS Digest, Vol 34, Issue 18 > ************************************ > From juliealisa.kobayashi at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 21:22:04 2010 From: juliealisa.kobayashi at gmail.com (J. A. Kobayashi) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 21:22:04 -0800 Subject: [ilds] pinching Spengler In-Reply-To: References: <4B65B47A.6070904@utc.edu> <4B65F7A1.1070409@utc.edu> <4f26a15b1001311525p39bff5cdn10da2e1ea062aaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4f26a15b1001312122s135d7e54laf3f4d9cd303c8f@mail.gmail.com> Bruce, Thank you for bringing the book discussing Spengler in relation to modernism to my attention. A recent explication of the relation between the two of them would be fascinating reading indeed and is something that I thought that I'd have to come up with entirely on my own at some point with no help from previous contemporary perspectives. It will definitely be placed on my reading list. I have only read the beginning of *The Decline of Europe* at this point but have already had an a truly amazing amount of light shed for me on many, many aspects of *The Revolt of Aphrodite* by Otto Rank's *Art and Artist*. Due to the extent to which it illuminated the novel for me, I feel obligated to give it a plug here as a potentially good way of reapproaching *The Revolt* should you ever choose to. The translation of *Art and Artist* that I read was by Charles Francis Atkinson and perfectly serviceable for my purposes. If it was Durrell's prose that was the reason you couldn't get past the first few pages of *The Revolt*, it wouldn't in itself have to be responsible for attracting and retaining your interest if treated as the means by which a novelist is applying Rank's theories, a second time around. Best wishes, Julie On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > Julie, > > Thanks for the reference. Spengler has fallen out of favor for about the > last sixty or seventy years at least (along with Arnold Toynbee, another > historian with a sweeping theory), so it's no surprise you haven't hear of > him, nor your parents or grandparents for that matter. He's treated > nowadays as a curiosity, like Siggy Freud. If you want a recent assessment > of Spengler and his place in Modernism, see Cathy Gere's *Knossos and the > Prophets of Modernism* (Chicago 2009). The book has problems, but it's > very interesting, and she brings a lot together. I can't help you with *The > Revolt of Aphrodite.* I haven't read it ? couldn't get past the first few > pages. Good luck on the paper. It's good to see new readers interested in > what old LD was up to. > > > Bruce > > > On Jan 31, 2010, at 3:25 PM, J. A. Kobayashi wrote: > > Bruce, > > The quote is from page 161 of *Lawrence Durrell: Conversations* but I > don't have access to the book right now--just a transcription of everything > I could find in it that related to *The Revolt of Aphrodite*. In > addition, pages 153-163 are missing from the Google books preview, so I > can't tell you where the interview was. I CAN tell you that I'd never heard > of Spengler before reading Durrell's references to him an interview > (possibly the one I quoted from in my post), so I take it that he (Spengler) > may have once been much more of a household name than he presently is. On > the other hand, at least when I borrowed *The Decline of the West* from my > library it had been checked out once last year, the last time *Art and > Artist* had been checked out was 1971. I will be sure to check out the > Grand Central Oyster Bar as well for "research purposes" (since, as it > happen, I'll be departing for a month long trip to Providence, RI and NYC in > one week). Charles, thank you very much for the response to and forwarding > of my inquiry in regard to possible OMG submission. You should be receiving > my reply shortly. > > Best wishes, > > Julie > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Charles Sligh wrote: > >> Bruce Redwine wrote: >> > Good interview. Was it in the Oyster Bar in the basement of Grand >> Central? Also makes me hungry for clams and Spengler, along with a pint or >> two. >> > >> > >> Yes--I like the suggestion about Grand Central--I can recall discovering >> that bar late at night while wandering one cold December. >> >> C&c. >> >> -- >> ******************************************** >> Charles L. Sligh >> Assistant Professor >> Department of English >> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga >> charles-sligh at utc.edu >> ******************************************** >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20100131/d90103b1/attachment.html