From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon Oct 5 07:00:22 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 07:00:22 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Selfhood In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C42017B437ABF28@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C42017B437ABF28@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: <4CBCF4FF-C540-4054-9725-6B179409797A@earthlink.net> Bill, by muddling along, I assume. Durrell's idea of "selfhood" seems to me one big muddle or a muddle of a muddle. If not continuous, then how did he recognize that same person with a boyhood in India and old age in Province? Bruce On Oct 4, 2009, at 5:48 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > I think that Durrell would have no truck with the idea that we have > a central core of selfhood. He at least seems to believe in a > fragmented self, one that is not at all continuous. > > But how can we live in a distorted way? > > Bill > > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * * > University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * > OH 45221-0069 * * > ________________________________________ > From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On > Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 2:18 PM > To: marcpiel at interdesign.fr; ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Cc: Bruce Redwine > Subject: Re: [ilds] Selected Fictions > > Yes. Most of us, perhaps all. > > > On Oct 4, 2009, at 4:41 AM, Marc Piel wrote: > >> There is a central core, but most of us live it in >> a distorted way. >> Look up the "Enneargram" ! >> @+ >> Marc >> >> Bruce Redwine a ?crit : >>> I opt for question two and answer in the affirmative. We do have a >>> "central core of self." And that answer Durrell himself gives. A >>> deathbed conversion? Read one of his last poems, "Le cercle >>> referm?." I hear one voice, not multiple, from the beginning of his >>> life in India to the end in Provence: >>> >>> With lunar leanings, I was crafty in loving, >>> Or jaunty as a god of the bullfrogs, >>> The uncanny promptings of the human I. >>> >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>> >>> On Oct 3, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: >>> >>>> Because we do diverse things with our bodies and mind, are we >>>> different selves when we do different things? Or do we have a >>>> central core of self that was there when we were born and will be >>>> there as we die? >>>> >>>> Bill From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Mon Oct 5 17:37:41 2009 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 20:37:41 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Selfhood In-Reply-To: <4CBCF4FF-C540-4054-9725-6B179409797A@earthlink.net> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C42017B437ABF28@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <4CBCF4FF-C540-4054-9725-6B179409797A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C42017B437ABF2C@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Too bad old D is not here to give an answer. I wonder what he would say. Laugh and say that he had already written upon that subject? Refer us to the WORD? Bo;; W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * * University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * OH 45221-0069 * * ________________________________________ From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 10:00 AM To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Cc: Bruce Redwine Subject: [ilds] Selfhood Bill, by muddling along, I assume. Durrell's idea of "selfhood" seems to me one big muddle or a muddle of a muddle. If not continuous, then how did he recognize that same person with a boyhood in India and old age in Province? Bruce On Oct 4, 2009, at 5:48 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > I think that Durrell would have no truck with the idea that we have > a central core of selfhood. He at least seems to believe in a > fragmented self, one that is not at all continuous. > > But how can we live in a distorted way? > > Bill > > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * * > University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * > OH 45221-0069 * * > ________________________________________ > From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On > Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 2:18 PM > To: marcpiel at interdesign.fr; ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Cc: Bruce Redwine > Subject: Re: [ilds] Selected Fictions > > Yes. Most of us, perhaps all. > > > On Oct 4, 2009, at 4:41 AM, Marc Piel wrote: > >> There is a central core, but most of us live it in >> a distorted way. >> Look up the "Enneargram" ! >> @+ >> Marc >> >> Bruce Redwine a ?crit : >>> I opt for question two and answer in the affirmative. We do have a >>> "central core of self." And that answer Durrell himself gives. A >>> deathbed conversion? Read one of his last poems, "Le cercle >>> referm?." I hear one voice, not multiple, from the beginning of his >>> life in India to the end in Provence: >>> >>> With lunar leanings, I was crafty in loving, >>> Or jaunty as a god of the bullfrogs, >>> The uncanny promptings of the human I. >>> >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>> >>> On Oct 3, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: >>> >>>> Because we do diverse things with our bodies and mind, are we >>>> different selves when we do different things? Or do we have a >>>> central core of self that was there when we were born and will be >>>> there as we die? >>>> >>>> Bill _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon Oct 5 18:27:57 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 18:27:57 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Selfhood In-Reply-To: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C42017B437ABF2C@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> References: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C42017B437ABF28@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu>, <4CBCF4FF-C540-4054-9725-6B179409797A@earthlink.net> <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C42017B437ABF2C@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> Message-ID: <9C8657CC-EC35-4C95-A869-DBC30D000039@earthlink.net> It's a big problem, and I don't think he ever worked it out, just as he didn't work out the Cambridge entrance exams. Bruce On Oct 5, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > Too bad old D is not here to give an answer. I wonder what he would > say. Laugh and say that he had already written upon that subject? > Refer us to the WORD? > > Bo;; > > > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * * > University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * > OH 45221-0069 * * > ________________________________________ > From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On > Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 10:00 AM > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Cc: Bruce Redwine > Subject: [ilds] Selfhood > > Bill, by muddling along, I assume. Durrell's idea of "selfhood" seems > to me one big muddle or a muddle of a muddle. If not continuous, then > how did he recognize that same person with a boyhood in India and old > age in Province? > > > Bruce > > > On Oct 4, 2009, at 5:48 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > >> I think that Durrell would have no truck with the idea that we have >> a central core of selfhood. He at least seems to believe in a >> fragmented self, one that is not at all continuous. >> >> But how can we live in a distorted way? >> >> Bill >> >> W. L. Godshalk * >> Department of English * * >> University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * >> OH 45221-0069 * * >> ________________________________________ >> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On >> Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net] >> Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 2:18 PM >> To: marcpiel at interdesign.fr; ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> Cc: Bruce Redwine >> Subject: Re: [ilds] Selected Fictions >> >> Yes. Most of us, perhaps all. >> >> >> On Oct 4, 2009, at 4:41 AM, Marc Piel wrote: >> >>> There is a central core, but most of us live it in >>> a distorted way. >>> Look up the "Enneargram" ! >>> @+ >>> Marc >>> >>> Bruce Redwine a ?crit : >>>> I opt for question two and answer in the affirmative. We do have a >>>> "central core of self." And that answer Durrell himself gives. A >>>> deathbed conversion? Read one of his last poems, "Le cercle >>>> referm?." I hear one voice, not multiple, from the beginning of >>>> his >>>> life in India to the end in Provence: >>>> >>>> With lunar leanings, I was crafty in loving, >>>> Or jaunty as a god of the bullfrogs, >>>> The uncanny promptings of the human I. >>>> >>>> >>>> Bruce >>>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 3, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: >>>> >>>>> Because we do diverse things with our bodies and mind, are we >>>>> different selves when we do different things? Or do we have a >>>>> central core of self that was there when we were born and will be >>>>> there as we die? >>>>> >>>>> Bill > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Tue Oct 6 08:21:58 2009 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:21:58 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Selfhood, Durrell, Pater Message-ID: <1254842518.42d4061cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> Bruce, Bill, Ilyas, Sumantra, &c.: Sorry to be absent from the conversation. I am still working without my MacBook, which has been declared "beyond recovery." It is most fortunate that I was also using a Time Capsule, the Apple wireless system that automatically backs up data. A word to the fallible and unwise--all of us mortals--always back up. . . . Bruce & Bill-- Am I ducking the difficult and interesting question about Durrell's biographical "self" if I wonder aloud if we can ever find more suggestive questions about self than we see dramatized in the novels and the poetry? Note that I write "questions about self." I am pretty certain that any "answers about self" are subjective and self-generated from our readings. No one else need agree with that point. I come to it after too many years of reading Pater and Durrell. Again, as I have written here in the past, in my reckoning, Durrell's ideas of "self" and "reality" and "truth" and "perception" have a tradition--or perhaps I should say I perceive him in a tradition? Certainly you might find him casting his own charts for those terms in his Key to Modern British Poetry. But every time I read Pater's conclusion to Studies in the History of the Renaissance (1873), I am struck with a sense of deja vu--subjective, no doubt--that I already understand what Pater writes because I had read Durrell's relativist writings from the late 1950s before Pater's Epicurean impressionism from the 1860s & 1870s. Try this Paterian passage--I believe I posted parts of it some years ago in connection with particular passages from the Quartet. I am particularly interested in Pater's notion of self-in-flux--"that continual vanishing away, that strange perpetual weaving and unweaving of ourselves." Of course, Pater, like Durrell, had his own secrets to fuel his evasions and masks. **** To regard all things and principles of things as inconstant modes or fashions has more and more become the tendency of modern thought. Let us begin with that which is without?our physical life. Fix upon it in one of its more exquisite intervals, the moment, for instance, of delicious recoil from the flood of water in summer heat. What is the whole physical life in that moment but a combination of natural elements to which science gives their names? But these elements, phosphorus and lime and delicate fibres, are present not in the human body alone: we detect them in places most remote from it. Our physical life is a perpetual motion of them?the passage of the blood, the wasting and repairing of the lenses of the eye, the modification of the tissues of the brain by every ray of light and sound?processes which science reduces to simpler and more elementary forces. Like the elements of which we are composed, the action of these forces extends beyond us; it rusts iron and ripens corn. Far out on every side of us these elements are broadcast, driven by many forces; and birth and gesture and death and the springing of violets from the grave are but a few out of ten thousand resulting combinations. That clear perpetual outline of face and limb is but an image of ours under which we group them?a design in a web, the actual threads of which pass out beyond it. This at least of flame-like our life has, that it is but the concurrence, renewed from moment to moment, of forces parting sooner or later on their ways. Or if we begin with the inward world of thought and feeling, the whirlpool is still more rapid, the flame more eager and devouring. There it is no longer the gradual darkening of the eye and fading of colour from the wall,?the movement of the shore side, where the water flows down indeed, though in apparent rest,?but the race of the midstream, a drift of momentary acts of sight and passion and thought. At first sight experience seems to bury us under a flood of external objects, pressing upon us with a sharp importunate reality, calling us out of ourselves in a thousand forms of action. But when reflection begins to act upon those objects they are dissipated under its influence; the cohesive force is suspended like a trick of magic; each object is loosed into a group of impressions,?colour, odour, texture, ?in the mind of the observer. And if we continue to dwell on this world, not of objects in the solidity with which language invests them, but of impressions unstable, flickering, inconsistent, which burn and are extinguished with our consciousness of them, it contracts still further; the whole scope of observation is dwarfed to the narrow chamber of the individual mind. Experience, already reduced to a swarm of impressions, is ringed round for each one of us by that thick wall of personality through which no real voice has ever pierced on its way to us, or from us to that which we can only conjecture to be without. Every one of those impressions is the impression of the individual in his isolation, each mind keeping as a solitary prisoner its own dream of a world. Analysis goes a step further still, and tells us that those impressions of the individual to which, for each one of us, experience dwindles down, are in perpetual flight; that each of them is limited by time, and that as time is infinitely divisible, each of them is infinitely divisible also; all that is actual in it being a single moment, gone while we try to apprehend it, of which it may ever be more truly said that it has ceased to be than that it is. To such a tremulous wisp constantly reforming itself on the stream, to a single sharp impression, with a sense in it, a relic more or less fleeting, of such moments gone by, what is real in our life fines itself down. It is with the movement, the passage and dissolution of impressions, images, sensations, that analysis leaves off,?that continual vanishing away, that strange perpetual weaving and unweaving of ourselves. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Redwine To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 18:27:57 -0700 Subject: Re: [ilds] Selfhood It's a big problem, and I don't think he ever worked it out, just as he didn't work out the Cambridge entrance exams. Bruce fo/ilds *************************************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga Charles-Sligh at utc.edu *************************************** From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Tue Oct 6 08:28:13 2009 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:28:13 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Selfhood, Durrell, Pater Message-ID: <1254842893.42d4061cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> Ilyas: How would you compare Durrell's questions about self to Henry James' questions about self? That would be another interesting point to chart. Charles *** I am particularly interested in Pater's notion of self-in-flux--"that continual vanishing away, that strange perpetual weaving and unweaving of ourselves." *************************************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga Charles-Sligh at utc.edu *************************************** From holistic3000 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 5 23:44:11 2009 From: holistic3000 at yahoo.com (Ozlem Ince) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 23:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ilds] (no subject) Message-ID: <164602.65093.qm@web33707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ? Are we, perhaps, here just for saying: House, Bridge, Fountain, Gate, Jug, Fruit tree, Window, - possibly: Pillar, Tower?... but for saying, remember, oh, for such saying as never the things themselves hoped so intensely to be... Quoting from Rilke, are not we trying too much to delve into the black box of the soul and character...The influence of not passing the Cambride exams etc. Durell, the author who failed to get into Cambridge-very intense, even for Durell himself. Ozlem -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091005/759144f2/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue Oct 6 12:05:53 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 12:05:53 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Delving In-Reply-To: <164602.65093.qm@web33707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <164602.65093.qm@web33707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Any why not? Durrell talked freely about himself, perhaps too encourage "delving into the black box of [his] soul and character." Joyce said he placed enough puzzles in his work to keep people guessing for centuries, or something to that effect. Durrell may have been playing a similar game. Bruce On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:44 PM, Ozlem Ince wrote: > > > Are we, perhaps, here just for saying: House, > Bridge, Fountain, Gate, Jug, Fruit tree, Window, - > possibly: Pillar, Tower?... but for saying, remember, > oh, for such saying as never the things themselves > hoped so intensely to be... > > Quoting from Rilke, are not we trying too much to delve into the > black box of the soul and character...The influence of not passing > the Cambride exams etc. Durell, the author who failed to get into > Cambridge-very intense, even for Durell himself. > > Ozlem > > _ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091006/dbeeb975/attachment.html From jtriley at unca.edu Tue Oct 6 12:30:35 2009 From: jtriley at unca.edu (Jacob Riley) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 15:30:35 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Selfhood Message-ID: I wonder if takling about the "self" is different from talking about the "ego". Can the self be composed of many different selves? Durrell has already pronounced upon the death of the discrete ego in the Avignon Quintet and in certain interviews. I'm just not sure if the self and the ego are the same things for Durrell. On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 3:00 PM, wrote: > Send ILDS mailing list submissions to > ilds at lists.uvic.ca > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca > > You can reach the person managing the list at > ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Selfhood (Bruce Redwine) > 2. Re: Selfhood (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) > 3. Re: Selfhood (Bruce Redwine) > 4. Selfhood, Durrell, Pater (Charles Sligh) > 5. Re: Selfhood, Durrell, Pater (Charles Sligh) > 6. (no subject) (Ozlem Ince) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 07:00:22 -0700 > From: Bruce Redwine > Subject: [ilds] Selfhood > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Cc: Bruce Redwine > Message-ID: <4CBCF4FF-C540-4054-9725-6B179409797A at earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > Bill, by muddling along, I assume. Durrell's idea of "selfhood" seems > to me one big muddle or a muddle of a muddle. If not continuous, then > how did he recognize that same person with a boyhood in India and old > age in Province? > > > Bruce > > > On Oct 4, 2009, at 5:48 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > > > I think that Durrell would have no truck with the idea that we have > > a central core of selfhood. He at least seems to believe in a > > fragmented self, one that is not at all continuous. > > > > But how can we live in a distorted way? > > > > Bill > > > > W. L. Godshalk * > > Department of English * * > > University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * > > OH 45221-0069 * * > > ________________________________________ > > From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On > > Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net] > > Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 2:18 PM > > To: marcpiel at interdesign.fr; ilds at lists.uvic.ca > > Cc: Bruce Redwine > > Subject: Re: [ilds] Selected Fictions > > > > Yes. Most of us, perhaps all. > > > > > > On Oct 4, 2009, at 4:41 AM, Marc Piel wrote: > > > >> There is a central core, but most of us live it in > >> a distorted way. > >> Look up the "Enneargram" ! > >> @+ > >> Marc > >> > >> Bruce Redwine a ?crit : > >>> I opt for question two and answer in the affirmative. We do have a > >>> "central core of self." And that answer Durrell himself gives. A > >>> deathbed conversion? Read one of his last poems, "Le cercle > >>> referm?." I hear one voice, not multiple, from the beginning of his > >>> life in India to the end in Provence: > >>> > >>> With lunar leanings, I was crafty in loving, > >>> Or jaunty as a god of the bullfrogs, > >>> The uncanny promptings of the human I. > >>> > >>> > >>> Bruce > >>> > >>> > >>> On Oct 3, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > >>> > >>>> Because we do diverse things with our bodies and mind, are we > >>>> different selves when we do different things? Or do we have a > >>>> central core of self that was there when we were born and will be > >>>> there as we die? > >>>> > >>>> Bill > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 20:37:41 -0400 > From: "Godshalk, William (godshawl)" > Subject: Re: [ilds] Selfhood > To: "ilds at lists.uvic.ca" > Message-ID: > <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C42017B437ABF2C at UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Too bad old D is not here to give an answer. I wonder what he would say. > Laugh and say that he had already written upon that subject? Refer us to the > WORD? > > Bo;; > > > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * * > University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * > OH 45221-0069 * * > ________________________________________ > From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of > Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 10:00 AM > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Cc: Bruce Redwine > Subject: [ilds] Selfhood > > Bill, by muddling along, I assume. Durrell's idea of "selfhood" seems > to me one big muddle or a muddle of a muddle. If not continuous, then > how did he recognize that same person with a boyhood in India and old > age in Province? > > > Bruce > > > On Oct 4, 2009, at 5:48 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > > > I think that Durrell would have no truck with the idea that we have > > a central core of selfhood. He at least seems to believe in a > > fragmented self, one that is not at all continuous. > > > > But how can we live in a distorted way? > > > > Bill > > > > W. L. Godshalk * > > Department of English * * > > University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * > > OH 45221-0069 * * > > ________________________________________ > > From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On > > Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net] > > Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 2:18 PM > > To: marcpiel at interdesign.fr; ilds at lists.uvic.ca > > Cc: Bruce Redwine > > Subject: Re: [ilds] Selected Fictions > > > > Yes. Most of us, perhaps all. > > > > > > On Oct 4, 2009, at 4:41 AM, Marc Piel wrote: > > > >> There is a central core, but most of us live it in > >> a distorted way. > >> Look up the "Enneargram" ! > >> @+ > >> Marc > >> > >> Bruce Redwine a ?crit : > >>> I opt for question two and answer in the affirmative. We do have a > >>> "central core of self." And that answer Durrell himself gives. A > >>> deathbed conversion? Read one of his last poems, "Le cercle > >>> referm?." I hear one voice, not multiple, from the beginning of his > >>> life in India to the end in Provence: > >>> > >>> With lunar leanings, I was crafty in loving, > >>> Or jaunty as a god of the bullfrogs, > >>> The uncanny promptings of the human I. > >>> > >>> > >>> Bruce > >>> > >>> > >>> On Oct 3, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > >>> > >>>> Because we do diverse things with our bodies and mind, are we > >>>> different selves when we do different things? Or do we have a > >>>> central core of self that was there when we were born and will be > >>>> there as we die? > >>>> > >>>> Bill > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 18:27:57 -0700 > From: Bruce Redwine > Subject: Re: [ilds] Selfhood > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Cc: Bruce Redwine > Message-ID: <9C8657CC-EC35-4C95-A869-DBC30D000039 at earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > It's a big problem, and I don't think he ever worked it out, just as > he didn't work out the Cambridge entrance exams. > > > Bruce > > > On Oct 5, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > > > Too bad old D is not here to give an answer. I wonder what he would > > say. Laugh and say that he had already written upon that subject? > > Refer us to the WORD? > > > > Bo;; > > > > > > W. L. Godshalk * > > Department of English * * > > University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * > > OH 45221-0069 * * > > ________________________________________ > > From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On > > Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net] > > Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 10:00 AM > > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > > Cc: Bruce Redwine > > Subject: [ilds] Selfhood > > > > Bill, by muddling along, I assume. Durrell's idea of "selfhood" seems > > to me one big muddle or a muddle of a muddle. If not continuous, then > > how did he recognize that same person with a boyhood in India and old > > age in Province? > > > > > > Bruce > > > > > > On Oct 4, 2009, at 5:48 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > > > >> I think that Durrell would have no truck with the idea that we have > >> a central core of selfhood. He at least seems to believe in a > >> fragmented self, one that is not at all continuous. > >> > >> But how can we live in a distorted way? > >> > >> Bill > >> > >> W. L. Godshalk * > >> Department of English * * > >> University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * > >> OH 45221-0069 * * > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On > >> Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net] > >> Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 2:18 PM > >> To: marcpiel at interdesign.fr; ilds at lists.uvic.ca > >> Cc: Bruce Redwine > >> Subject: Re: [ilds] Selected Fictions > >> > >> Yes. Most of us, perhaps all. > >> > >> > >> On Oct 4, 2009, at 4:41 AM, Marc Piel wrote: > >> > >>> There is a central core, but most of us live it in > >>> a distorted way. > >>> Look up the "Enneargram" ! > >>> @+ > >>> Marc > >>> > >>> Bruce Redwine a ?crit : > >>>> I opt for question two and answer in the affirmative. We do have a > >>>> "central core of self." And that answer Durrell himself gives. A > >>>> deathbed conversion? Read one of his last poems, "Le cercle > >>>> referm?." I hear one voice, not multiple, from the beginning of > >>>> his > >>>> life in India to the end in Provence: > >>>> > >>>> With lunar leanings, I was crafty in loving, > >>>> Or jaunty as a god of the bullfrogs, > >>>> The uncanny promptings of the human I. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Bruce > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Oct 3, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Godshalk, William (godshawl) wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Because we do diverse things with our bodies and mind, are we > >>>>> different selves when we do different things? Or do we have a > >>>>> central core of self that was there when we were born and will be > >>>>> there as we die? > >>>>> > >>>>> Bill > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ILDS mailing list > > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ILDS mailing list > > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:21:58 -0400 > From: "Charles Sligh" > Subject: [ilds] Selfhood, Durrell, Pater > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Message-ID: <1254842518.42d4061cCharles-Sligh at utc.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Bruce, Bill, Ilyas, Sumantra, &c.: > > Sorry to be absent from the conversation. I am still working without my > MacBook, which has been declared "beyond recovery." > > It is most fortunate that I was also using a Time Capsule, the Apple > wireless system that automatically backs up data. A word to the fallible > and unwise--all of us mortals--always back up. . . . > > Bruce & Bill-- > > Am I ducking the difficult and interesting question about Durrell's > biographical "self" if I wonder aloud if we can ever find more suggestive > questions about self than we see dramatized in the novels and the poetry? > > Note that I write "questions about self." > > I am pretty certain that any "answers about self" are subjective and > self-generated from our readings. > > No one else need agree with that point. I come to it after too many years > of reading Pater and Durrell. > > Again, as I have written here in the past, in my reckoning, Durrell's ideas > of "self" and "reality" and "truth" and "perception" have a tradition--or > perhaps I should say I perceive him in a tradition? > > Certainly you might find him casting his own charts for those terms in his > Key to Modern British Poetry. > > But every time I read Pater's conclusion to Studies in the History of the > Renaissance (1873), I am struck with a sense of deja vu--subjective, no > doubt--that I already understand what Pater writes because I had read > Durrell's relativist writings from the late 1950s before Pater's Epicurean > impressionism from the 1860s & 1870s. > > Try this Paterian passage--I believe I posted parts of it some years ago in > connection with particular passages from the Quartet. I am particularly > interested in Pater's notion of self-in-flux--"that continual vanishing > away, that strange perpetual weaving and unweaving of ourselves." > > Of course, Pater, like Durrell, had his own secrets to fuel his evasions > and masks. > > **** > > To regard all things and principles of things as > inconstant modes or fashions has more and more > become the tendency of modern thought. Let us > begin with that which is without?our physical life. > Fix upon it in one of its more exquisite intervals, > the moment, for instance, of delicious recoil from > the flood of water in summer heat. What is the > whole physical life in that moment but a combination > of natural elements to which science gives > their names? But these elements, phosphorus and > lime and delicate fibres, are present not in the > human body alone: we detect them in places most > remote from it. Our physical life is a perpetual > motion of them?the passage of the blood, the > wasting and repairing of the lenses of the eye, the > modification of the tissues of the brain by every ray > of light and sound?processes which science reduces > to simpler and more elementary forces. Like the > elements of which we are composed, the action of > these forces extends beyond us; it rusts iron and > ripens corn. Far out on every side of us these elements > are broadcast, driven by many forces; and birth > and gesture and death and the springing of violets > from the grave are but a few out of ten thousand > resulting combinations. That clear perpetual outline > of face and limb is but an image of ours under > which we group them?a design in a web, the actual > threads of which pass out beyond it. This at least > of flame-like our life has, that it is but the concurrence, > renewed from moment to moment, of forces > parting sooner or later on their ways. > > Or if we begin with the inward world of thought > and feeling, the whirlpool is still more rapid, the > flame more eager and devouring. There it is no > longer the gradual darkening of the eye and fading > of colour from the wall,?the movement of the shore > side, where the water flows down indeed, though in > apparent rest,?but the race of the midstream, a drift > of momentary acts of sight and passion and thought. > At first sight experience seems to bury us under a > flood of external objects, pressing upon us with a > sharp importunate reality, calling us out of ourselves > in a thousand forms of action. But when > reflection begins to act upon those objects they are > dissipated under its influence; the cohesive force is > suspended like a trick of magic; each object is loosed > into a group of impressions,?colour, odour, texture, > ?in the mind of the observer. And if we continue > to dwell on this world, not of objects in the solidity > with which language invests them, but of impressions > unstable, flickering, inconsistent, which burn and > are extinguished with our consciousness of them, it > contracts still further; the whole scope of observation > is dwarfed to the narrow chamber of the individual > mind. Experience, already reduced to a swarm of > impressions, is ringed round for each one of us by that > thick wall of personality through which no real voice > has ever pierced on its way to us, or from us to that > which we can only conjecture to be without. Every > one of those impressions is the impression of the > individual in his isolation, each mind keeping as a > solitary prisoner its own dream of a world. > > Analysis goes a step further still, and tells us that > those impressions of the individual to which, for > each one of us, experience dwindles down, are in > perpetual flight; that each of them is limited by > time, and that as time is infinitely divisible, each > of them is infinitely divisible also; all that is > actual in it being a single moment, gone while we > try to apprehend it, of which it may ever be more > truly said that it has ceased to be than that it > is. To such a tremulous wisp constantly reforming > itself on the stream, to a single sharp impression, > with a sense in it, a relic more or less fleeting, > of such moments gone by, what is real in our life > fines itself down. It is with the movement, the > passage and dissolution of impressions, images, > sensations, that analysis leaves off,?that continual > vanishing away, that strange perpetual weaving > and unweaving of ourselves. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Redwine > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 18:27:57 -0700 > Subject: Re: [ilds] Selfhood > > It's a big problem, and I don't think he ever worked it out, just as > he didn't work out the Cambridge entrance exams. > > > Bruce > fo/ilds > > > *************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > Charles-Sligh at utc.edu > *************************************** > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:28:13 -0400 > From: "Charles Sligh" > Subject: Re: [ilds] Selfhood, Durrell, Pater > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Message-ID: <1254842893.42d4061cCharles-Sligh at utc.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Ilyas: > > How would you compare Durrell's questions about self to Henry James' > questions about self? > > That would be another interesting point to chart. > > Charles > > *** > > > I am particularly interested in Pater's notion of self-in-flux--"that > continual vanishing away, that strange perpetual weaving and unweaving of > ourselves." > *************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > Charles-Sligh at utc.edu > *************************************** > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 23:44:11 -0700 (PDT) > From: Ozlem Ince > Subject: [ilds] (no subject) > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Message-ID: <164602.65093.qm at web33707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > ? > Are we, perhaps, here just for saying: House, > Bridge, Fountain, Gate, Jug, Fruit tree, Window, - > possibly: Pillar, Tower?... but for saying, remember, > oh, for such saying as never the things themselves > hoped so intensely to be... > > Quoting from Rilke, are not we trying too much to delve into the black box > of the soul and character...The influence of not passing the Cambride exams > etc. Durell, the author who failed to get into Cambridge-very intense, even > for Durell himself. > > Ozlem > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091005/759144f2/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > End of ILDS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 5 > *********************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091006/e4d47ea2/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue Oct 6 12:49:47 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 12:49:47 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Selfhood, Durrell, Pater In-Reply-To: <1254842518.42d4061cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> References: <1254842518.42d4061cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> Message-ID: Charles, I see Pater as describing, beautifully so, the effervescence of consciousness, not the nature of "selfhood," as Bill offers. I think Keats, Pater, Durrell, and a host of others confuse the two. I'm very literal minded and don't see how you can equate, what Durrell sometimes calls, "I per se I," that core entity of personality, with those fleeting impressions and Paterian "hard, gemlike flames" of sensory experience. Because the world around me is fleeting does not mean that I am just as insubstantial, or so I think. Cogito. Zen Buddhism, on the other hand, says that my rock-hard sense of self is nothing but an illusion. I don't believe it. Bruce On Oct 6, 2009, at 8:21 AM, Charles Sligh wrote: > Bruce, Bill, Ilyas, Sumantra, &c.: > > Sorry to be absent from the conversation. I am still working > without my MacBook, which has been declared "beyond recovery." > > It is most fortunate that I was also using a Time Capsule, the Apple > wireless system that automatically backs up data. A word to the > fallible and unwise--all of us mortals--always back up. . . . > > Bruce & Bill-- > > Am I ducking the difficult and interesting question about Durrell's > biographical "self" if I wonder aloud if we can ever find more > suggestive questions about self than we see dramatized in the novels > and the poetry? > > Note that I write "questions about self." > > I am pretty certain that any "answers about self" are subjective and > self-generated from our readings. > > No one else need agree with that point. I come to it after too many > years of reading Pater and Durrell. > > Again, as I have written here in the past, in my reckoning, > Durrell's ideas of "self" and "reality" and "truth" and "perception" > have a tradition--or perhaps I should say I perceive him in a > tradition? > > Certainly you might find him casting his own charts for those terms > in his Key to Modern British Poetry. > > But every time I read Pater's conclusion to Studies in the History > of the Renaissance (1873), I am struck with a sense of deja vu-- > subjective, no doubt--that I already understand what Pater writes > because I had read Durrell's relativist writings from the late 1950s > before Pater's Epicurean impressionism from the 1860s & 1870s. > > Try this Paterian passage--I believe I posted parts of it some years > ago in connection with particular passages from the Quartet. I am > particularly interested in Pater's notion of self-in-flux--"that > continual vanishing away, that strange perpetual weaving and > unweaving of ourselves." > > Of course, Pater, like Durrell, had his own secrets to fuel his > evasions and masks. > > **** > > To regard all things and principles of things as > inconstant modes or fashions has more and more > become the tendency of modern thought. Let us > begin with that which is without?our physical life. > Fix upon it in one of its more exquisite intervals, > the moment, for instance, of delicious recoil from > the flood of water in summer heat. What is the > whole physical life in that moment but a combination > of natural elements to which science gives > their names? But these elements, phosphorus and > lime and delicate fibres, are present not in the > human body alone: we detect them in places most > remote from it. Our physical life is a perpetual > motion of them?the passage of the blood, the > wasting and repairing of the lenses of the eye, the > modification of the tissues of the brain by every ray > of light and sound?processes which science reduces > to simpler and more elementary forces. Like the > elements of which we are composed, the action of > these forces extends beyond us; it rusts iron and > ripens corn. Far out on every side of us these elements > are broadcast, driven by many forces; and birth > and gesture and death and the springing of violets > from the grave are but a few out of ten thousand > resulting combinations. That clear perpetual outline > of face and limb is but an image of ours under > which we group them?a design in a web, the actual > threads of which pass out beyond it. This at least > of flame-like our life has, that it is but the concurrence, > renewed from moment to moment, of forces > parting sooner or later on their ways. > > Or if we begin with the inward world of thought > and feeling, the whirlpool is still more rapid, the > flame more eager and devouring. There it is no > longer the gradual darkening of the eye and fading > of colour from the wall,?the movement of the shore > side, where the water flows down indeed, though in > apparent rest,?but the race of the midstream, a drift > of momentary acts of sight and passion and thought. > At first sight experience seems to bury us under a > flood of external objects, pressing upon us with a > sharp importunate reality, calling us out of ourselves > in a thousand forms of action. But when > reflection begins to act upon those objects they are > dissipated under its influence; the cohesive force is > suspended like a trick of magic; each object is loosed > into a group of impressions,?colour, odour, texture, > ?in the mind of the observer. And if we continue > to dwell on this world, not of objects in the solidity > with which language invests them, but of impressions > unstable, flickering, inconsistent, which burn and > are extinguished with our consciousness of them, it > contracts still further; the whole scope of observation > is dwarfed to the narrow chamber of the individual > mind. Experience, already reduced to a swarm of > impressions, is ringed round for each one of us by that > thick wall of personality through which no real voice > has ever pierced on its way to us, or from us to that > which we can only conjecture to be without. Every > one of those impressions is the impression of the > individual in his isolation, each mind keeping as a > solitary prisoner its own dream of a world. > > Analysis goes a step further still, and tells us that > those impressions of the individual to which, for > each one of us, experience dwindles down, are in > perpetual flight; that each of them is limited by > time, and that as time is infinitely divisible, each > of them is infinitely divisible also; all that is > actual in it being a single moment, gone while we > try to apprehend it, of which it may ever be more > truly said that it has ceased to be than that it > is. To such a tremulous wisp constantly reforming > itself on the stream, to a single sharp impression, > with a sense in it, a relic more or less fleeting, > of such moments gone by, what is real in our life > fines itself down. It is with the movement, the > passage and dissolution of impressions, images, > sensations, that analysis leaves off,?that continual > vanishing away, that strange perpetual weaving > and unweaving of ourselves. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Redwine > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 18:27:57 -0700 > Subject: Re: [ilds] Selfhood > > It's a big problem, and I don't think he ever worked it out, just as > he didn't work out the Cambridge entrance exams. > > > Bruce > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091006/544510d0/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue Oct 6 13:13:09 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:13:09 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Selfhood In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08395497-5D78-4471-86D4-B37DE63163C2@earthlink.net> I would say the two terms are essentially identical for Durrell, but someone else may disagree. "Ego," I believe, is the old Freudian term, which has fallen out of favor, along with Freud's fall from grace. I sense that "self" is the popular term nowadays. Is the concept of "ego"/self dead? Well, that's what this discussion is all about. Is the self fragmented, without a stable identity? I say no. Durrell seems to say yes, especially in Monsieur. Bruce On Oct 6, 2009, at 12:30 PM, Jacob Riley wrote: > I wonder if takling about the "self" is different from talking about > the "ego". Can the self be composed of many different selves? > Durrell has already pronounced upon the death of the discrete ego in > the Avignon Quintet and in certain interviews. I'm just not sure if > the self and the ego are the same things for Durrell. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091006/988ea61d/attachment.html From godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu Tue Oct 6 14:13:46 2009 From: godshawl at ucmail.uc.edu (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 17:13:46 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Selfhood In-Reply-To: <08395497-5D78-4471-86D4-B37DE63163C2@earthlink.net> References: , <08395497-5D78-4471-86D4-B37DE63163C2@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <94B18F18BF859846A11A82A6166B6C42017B437ABF37@UCMAILBE2.ad.uc.edu> I think Norman Holland's book The I (available on line) makes a good case for a core identity and suggests a mechanism for change. Bill W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * * University of Cincinnati* * Stellar Disorder * OH 45221-0069 * * ________________________________________ From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce Redwine [bredwine1968 at earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 4:13 PM To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Cc: Bruce Redwine Subject: Re: [ilds] Selfhood I would say the two terms are essentially identical for Durrell, but someone else may disagree. "Ego," I believe, is the old Freudian term, which has fallen out of favor, along with Freud's fall from grace. I sense that "self" is the popular term nowadays. Is the concept of "ego"/self dead? Well, that's what this discussion is all about. Is the self fragmented, without a stable identity? I say no. Durrell seems to say yes, especially in Monsieur. Bruce On Oct 6, 2009, at 12:30 PM, Jacob Riley wrote: I wonder if takling about the "self" is different from talking about the "ego". Can the self be composed of many different selves? Durrell has already pronounced upon the death of the discrete ego in the Avignon Quintet and in certain interviews. I'm just not sure if the self and the ego are the same things for Durrell. From eahunger at charter.net Tue Oct 6 21:00:23 2009 From: eahunger at charter.net (Edward Hungerford) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 21:00:23 -0700 Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Oct. 4-5-- Education of great writers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 5, 2009, at 12:00 PM, ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca wrote: > Send ILDS mailing list submissions to > ilds at lists.uvic.ca > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca > > You can reach the person managing the list at > ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Oxbridge (Bruce Redwine) > 2. Re: Oscar Epfs (Bruce Redwine) > 3. Re: Selected Fictions (Godshalk, William (godshawl)) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Re: -- Oxbridge or Cambridge Several of the corespondents on the List seem to define great writers (and even 20th cent. writers) as exclusively male. I see no reference to either Virginia Woolf or Katherine Mansfield, or for that matter other feminine writers (There were some good ones.) As to education, aren't you all forgetting that D. H . Lawrence never attended anything other than a redbrick teachers college? Perhaps there are those who do not consider Lawrence a great writer? V. Woolf had her main educational system entirely at home, in her father's library. She lived among Cambridge graduates such as Leonard Woolf and Lytton Strachey, and in adulthood often lunched among the Cambridge colleges with friends, but did not study there. (She also studied Latin and Greek with capable WOMEN tutors and taught herself Russian. ) K. Mansfield, brought up in New Zealand, got to England when she was 17, but never reached, or considered it necessary, to go to Oxford or Cambridge. Ed Hungerford > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 12:21:23 -0700 > From: Bruce Redwine > Subject: [ilds] Oxbridge > To: Durrell list , Ilyas > Cc: Bruce Redwine > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Ilyas, > > Before I read MacNiven, I took Durrell at his word and assumed he > failed the entrance exams to Cambridge. MacNiven presents another > view, fairly convincingly, given the lack evidence, that Durrell never > even tried to get into Oxbridge. In either case, I think he was later > disappointed, as you state, at never attending one of those > universities. Like you, I see his attempt, either real or imagined, > as a "failure," which he later uses in his various fictions. Most of > the great writers of English letters in the 20th century attended a > British university. The only one who didn't -- correct me if I'm > wrong -- was George Orwell, although he went through Eton. (Remember > the sarcasm attached to "Eton boy," smacking of envy, somewhere in the > Quartet.) As Sumantra notes, many of these writers barely got through > their schools and ended up with third class degrees. Nevertheless, > they had that certificate, which was a stamp of approval and entry- > pass into English society. The English seem impressed by degrees; > I've seen many a card listing degrees and awards. E.g., "John Doe, > BA, MA, Cantab., OBE, etc." > > Bruce > > > On Oct 4, 2009, at 6:31 AM, Ilyas wrote: From sumantranag at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 01:04:06 2009 From: sumantranag at gmail.com (Sumantra Nag) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 13:34:06 +0530 Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 4_Oxbridge (Bruce Redwine) References: Message-ID: <006101ca4724$c05d1180$0301a8c0@abc> Message: 1 Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 12:21:23 -0700 From: Bruce Redwine Subject: [ilds] Oxbridge "As Sumantra notes, many of these writers barely got through their schools and ended up with third class degrees." Bruce, I think many British writers of the pre-WWII generation who got poor degrees or no degrees at Oxbridge, did well enough academically at their schools to get into Oxbridge, and in some cases with scholarships or exhibitions. They were, probably, good students at school. Many schools, and particularly the well-known ones which regularly sent a number of their students to Oxbridge were equipped to train their students well during their final years in school, and for the entrance exams. Did Lawrence Durrell have access to such training at the school where he was? He was provided with opportunities for private coaching I think. But the discipline within a school with a tradition would normally force a student to come up to his potential and the "peer group" too would have an influence. I think you might find that levels of academic application or performance changed between school and university (Oxbridge in particular) probably because of the attractions of a broader life and more freedom offered at university. In some cases people may have already started writing seriously and this is what they concentrated on and neglected the greater academic effort required at university. Of course there are writers who did well academically at university too. Sumantra From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Wed Oct 7 10:29:00 2009 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 19:29:00 +0200 Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 4_Oxbridge (Bruce Redwine) In-Reply-To: <006101ca4724$c05d1180$0301a8c0@abc> References: <006101ca4724$c05d1180$0301a8c0@abc> Message-ID: <4ACCCFDC.9080300@interdesign.fr> Is it folklore that Winston Churchil didn't get through high school? If so was it important? Cheers Marc Sumantra Nag a ?crit : > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 12:21:23 -0700 > From: Bruce Redwine > Subject: [ilds] Oxbridge > > > "As Sumantra notes, many of these writers barely got through their schools > and ended up with third class degrees." > > Bruce, I think many British writers of the pre-WWII generation who got poor > degrees or no degrees at Oxbridge, did well enough academically at their > schools to get into Oxbridge, and in some cases with scholarships or > exhibitions. They were, probably, good students at school. Many schools, and > particularly the well-known ones which regularly sent a number of their > students to Oxbridge were equipped to train their students well during their > final years in school, and for the entrance exams. > > Did Lawrence Durrell have access to such training at the school where he > was? He was provided with opportunities for private coaching I think. But > the discipline within a school with a tradition would normally force a > student to come up to his potential and the "peer group" too would have an > influence. > > I think you might find that levels of academic application or performance > changed between school and university (Oxbridge in particular) probably > because of the attractions of a broader life and more freedom offered at > university. In some cases people may have already started writing seriously > and this is what they concentrated on and neglected the greater academic > effort required at university. > > Of course there are writers who did well academically at university too. > > Sumantra > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed Oct 7 12:40:17 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 12:40:17 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Churchill In-Reply-To: <4ACCCFDC.9080300@interdesign.fr> References: <006101ca4724$c05d1180$0301a8c0@abc> <4ACCCFDC.9080300@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: <25382941-AB84-4A79-9252-1E906CDA531F@earthlink.net> Churchill graduated from Harrow, one of the most famous public schools in England, and then attended and graduated from Sandhurst, the Royal Military Academy, where he did well. Bruce On Oct 7, 2009, at 10:29 AM, Marc Piel wrote: > Is it folklore that Winston Churchil didn't get > through high school? > If so was it important? > Cheers > Marc From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed Oct 7 14:15:39 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 14:15:39 -0700 Subject: [ilds] English Public Schools In-Reply-To: <006101ca4724$c05d1180$0301a8c0@abc> References: <006101ca4724$c05d1180$0301a8c0@abc> Message-ID: <0AB939D4-797B-4B89-8809-05044F253D24@earthlink.net> Sumantra, yes, the English public schools ("private" in American terms) are superior educational institutions and excel at preparing their students for the university. They have other reputations, however, and it's always interesting to read Orwell's "Such, such were the joys" for another perspective. The essay describes the social climate at St. Cyprian's, before Orwell attended Eton. Durrell probably got a good education at his, before he went out into the world. He seems to know his Latin. What he missed and could have profited from, I think, was the critical exercise of going one on one with a tutor. A situation where one writes a weekly essay and then has to defend it word for word, assuming that was and is the process at one of the Oxbridge colleges. If he had done that, he might have avoided some of his questionable remarks on literature and the sciences. Bruce On Oct 7, 2009, at 1:04 AM, Sumantra Nag wrote: > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 12:21:23 -0700 > From: Bruce Redwine > Subject: [ilds] Oxbridge > > > "As Sumantra notes, many of these writers barely got through their > schools > and ended up with third class degrees." > > Bruce, I think many British writers of the pre-WWII generation who > got poor > degrees or no degrees at Oxbridge, did well enough academically at > their > schools to get into Oxbridge, and in some cases with scholarships or > exhibitions. They were, probably, good students at school. Many > schools, and > particularly the well-known ones which regularly sent a number of > their > students to Oxbridge were equipped to train their students well > during their > final years in school, and for the entrance exams. > > Did Lawrence Durrell have access to such training at the school > where he > was? He was provided with opportunities for private coaching I > think. But > the discipline within a school with a tradition would normally force a > student to come up to his potential and the "peer group" too would > have an > influence. > > I think you might find that levels of academic application or > performance > changed between school and university (Oxbridge in particular) > probably > because of the attractions of a broader life and more freedom > offered at > university. In some cases people may have already started writing > seriously > and this is what they concentrated on and neglected the greater > academic > effort required at university. > > Of course there are writers who did well academically at university > too. > > Sumantra > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091007/842ad574/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed Oct 7 14:45:08 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 14:45:08 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Education of great writers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C049D06-22C6-482E-BE7E-E00A1E1B072F@earthlink.net> Thanks for the correction. Yes, not mentioning Virginia Woolf would be a glaring omission, were I trying to list all the great writers of the 20th century. But I wasn't. I'm speaking of the "High Moderns" and the inevitable snobbism attached to such categorization. V. Woolf and D. H. Lawrence certainly make that list -- but Katherine Mansfield? I doubt it. Just as LD himself is highly unlikely to gain entry into the club, sad to say. Bruce On Oct 6, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Edward Hungerford wrote: > > On Oct 5, 2009, at 12:00 PM, ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca wrote: > >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Re: -- Oxbridge or Cambridge > > > Several of the corespondents on the List seem to define great writers > (and even 20th cent. writers) as exclusively male. I see no reference > to either Virginia Woolf or Katherine Mansfield, or for that matter > other feminine writers (There were some good ones.) As to > education, > aren't you all forgetting that D. H . Lawrence never attended anything > other than a redbrick teachers college? Perhaps there are those who > do > not consider Lawrence a great writer? V. Woolf had her main > educational system entirely at home, in her father's library. She > lived among Cambridge graduates such as Leonard Woolf and Lytton > Strachey, and in adulthood often lunched among the Cambridge colleges > with friends, but did not study there. (She also studied Latin and > Greek with capable WOMEN tutors and taught herself Russian. ) K. > Mansfield, brought up in New Zealand, got to England when she was 17, > but never reached, or considered it necessary, to go to Oxford or > Cambridge. Ed Hungerford > > > > > >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 12:21:23 -0700 >> From: Bruce Redwine >> Subject: [ilds] Oxbridge >> To: Durrell list , Ilyas >> Cc: Bruce Redwine >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Ilyas, >> >> Before I read MacNiven, I took Durrell at his word and assumed he >> failed the entrance exams to Cambridge. MacNiven presents another >> view, fairly convincingly, given the lack evidence, that Durrell >> never >> even tried to get into Oxbridge. In either case, I think he was >> later >> disappointed, as you state, at never attending one of those >> universities. Like you, I see his attempt, either real or imagined, >> as a "failure," which he later uses in his various fictions. Most of >> the great writers of English letters in the 20th century attended a >> British university. The only one who didn't -- correct me if I'm >> wrong -- was George Orwell, although he went through Eton. (Remember >> the sarcasm attached to "Eton boy," smacking of envy, somewhere in >> the >> Quartet.) As Sumantra notes, many of these writers barely got >> through >> their schools and ended up with third class degrees. Nevertheless, >> they had that certificate, which was a stamp of approval and entry- >> pass into English society. The English seem impressed by degrees; >> I've seen many a card listing degrees and awards. E.g., "John Doe, >> BA, MA, Cantab., OBE, etc." >> >> Bruce >> From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Wed Oct 7 15:27:00 2009 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 18:27:00 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Education of great writers Message-ID: <1254954420.4017189cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> A provocative observation, Ed. My response would be: How did Lawrence Durrell define "great writers"? How many women writers are mentioned in his _Key_ &c.? Of course he associated with any number of significant writers--Freya Stark, Anais, &c. But I do not know if any of those women rate highly on his list of great writers. . . . I am looking forward to more posts! Charles > > Several of the corespondents on the List seem to define great writers > (and even 20th cent. writers) as exclusively male. *************************************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga Charles-Sligh at utc.edu *************************************** From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Wed Oct 7 16:39:26 2009 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 01:39:26 +0200 Subject: [ilds] Churchill In-Reply-To: <25382941-AB84-4A79-9252-1E906CDA531F@earthlink.net> References: <006101ca4724$c05d1180$0301a8c0@abc> <4ACCCFDC.9080300@interdesign.fr> <25382941-AB84-4A79-9252-1E906CDA531F@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4ACD26AE.3030408@interdesign.fr> Einstein wrote: "I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world. Bruce Redwine a ?crit : > Churchill graduated from Harrow, one of the most famous public schools > in England, and then attended and graduated from Sandhurst, the Royal > Military Academy, where he did well. > > Bruce > > > On Oct 7, 2009, at 10:29 AM, Marc Piel wrote: > >> Is it folklore that Winston Churchil didn't get >> through high school? >> If so was it important? >> Cheers >> Marc > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed Oct 7 17:59:40 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:59:40 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Churchill In-Reply-To: <4ACD26AE.3030408@interdesign.fr> References: <006101ca4724$c05d1180$0301a8c0@abc> <4ACCCFDC.9080300@interdesign.fr> <25382941-AB84-4A79-9252-1E906CDA531F@earthlink.net> <4ACD26AE.3030408@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: Can't quarrel with that, in the main, but Einstein wouldn't have gotten anywhere without all that knowledge leading to Relativity. Bruce On Oct 7, 2009, at 4:39 PM, Marc Piel wrote: > Einstein wrote: "I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my > imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge > is limited. Imagination encircles the world. > > Bruce Redwine a ?crit : >> Churchill graduated from Harrow, one of the most famous public >> schools in England, and then attended and graduated from >> Sandhurst, the Royal Military Academy, where he did well. >> Bruce >> On Oct 7, 2009, at 10:29 AM, Marc Piel wrote: >>> Is it folklore that Winston Churchil didn't get >>> through high school? >>> If so was it important? >>> Cheers >>> Marc From Smithchamberlin at aol.com Wed Oct 7 18:15:22 2009 From: Smithchamberlin at aol.com (Smithchamberlin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 21:15:22 EDT Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 6 Message-ID: I note that none of the participants in the discussion are female. Or did I miss something? Brewster In a message dated 10/7/2009 3:00:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca writes: > Re: -- Oxbridge or Cambridge Several of the corespondents on the List seem to define great writers (and even 20th cent. writers) as exclusively male. I see no reference to either Virginia Woolf or Katherine Mansfield, or for that matter other feminine writers (There were some good ones.) As to education, aren't you all forgetting that D. H . Lawrence never attended anything other than a redbrick teachers college? Perhaps there are those who do not consider Lawrence a great writer? V. Woolf had her main educational system entirely at home, in her father's library. She lived among Cambridge graduates such as Leonard Woolf and Lytton Strachey, and in adulthood often lunched among the Cambridge colleges with friends, but did not study there. (She also studied Latin and Greek with capable WOMEN tutors and taught herself Russian. ) K. Mansfield, brought up in New Zealand, got to England when she was 17, but never reached, or considered it necessary, to go to Oxford or Cambridge. Ed Hungerford -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091007/c6145f31/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed Oct 7 18:47:41 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 18:47:41 -0700 Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23D2D997-A757-4591-A85B-D220C8DB27F2@earthlink.net> I think you did. Bruce On Oct 7, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Smithchamberlin at aol.com wrote: > I note that none of the participants in the discussion are female. > Or did I miss something? > Brewster > > In a message dated 10/7/2009 3:00:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca > writes: > > Re: -- Oxbridge or Cambridge > > > Several of the corespondents on the List seem to define great writers > (and even 20th cent. writers) as exclusively male. I see no reference > to either Virginia Woolf or Katherine Mansfield, or for that matter > other feminine writers (There were some good ones.) As to > education, > aren't you all forgetting that D. H . Lawrence never attended anything > other than a redbrick teachers college? Perhaps there are those who > do > not consider Lawrence a great writer? V. Woolf had her main > educational system entirely at home, in her father's library. She > lived among Cambridge graduates such as Leonard Woolf and Lytton > Strachey, and in adulthood often lunched among the Cambridge colleges > with friends, but did not study there. (She also studied Latin and > Greek with capable WOMEN tutors and taught herself Russian. ) K. > Mansfield, brought up in New Zealand, got to England when she was 17, > but never reached, or considered it necessary, to go to Oxford or > Cambridge. Ed Hungerford > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091007/95f71081/attachment.html From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Thu Oct 8 04:58:52 2009 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 07:58:52 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Lawrence and Gerald Durrell's Corfu Message-ID: <1255003132.46cc1c3cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> https://smi.utc.edu/w?Nh.E0.EDyQ.S7TsztQ.EBgEg.Cy9LNSg.K Lawrence and Gerald Durrell's Corfu The Durrell brothers discovered the island of Corfu in their youth, and became enchanted with its beauties but also its people and the 'aroma' of the Ionian Sea, which crop up frequently in their writings later. Gerald Durrel grew up to become a naturalist, zookeeper, author and television presenter and his older brother Lawrence became a noted novelist, poet and travel writer. Lawrence was 23, and already married, when his family -- his wife, mother, younger brother and sister -- settled on Corfu in 1935, and Gerald was barely 10. Lawrence became intrigued with the ancient and Modern Greek language, while he also started to write poems and broaden his circle of contacts with several Greek writers. Lawrence later wrote about the family's carefree years on the island, the tenderness and innocence of the people of Corfu in the mid-war years, in two of his books: Prospero's Cell (1945) and Blue Thirst (1975). The island's quaint and unadulterated beauty also inspired Gerald who, too, later wrote about the family's life and experiences on Corfu in his anecdote filled book My Family and Other Animals (1962), which brings with his great affection for the island and its people. But the people of Corfu, too, did not remain untouched by the Durrell brothers' stay on the island, and the memories linger on despite the passing of time. The locals proudly talk about the two British writers who had their island their second home, and never miss an opportunity to point out to visitors the 'white house' in the tiny village of Kalamos where the Durrells lived. Today, the house is a hostel and its current owners have taken care to keep alive the memories of the Durrells and that carefree epoch. The Durrell brothers have inspired many people, including British writer Richard Pine who has not only studied the brothers' ties with the island, but also established in 2002 The Durrell School of Corfu, which offers a wide range of activities, such as weekly seminars on the brothers' writing and the rich cultural heritage of the Mediterranean, excursions, and lectures on the same subject. Pine, who himself also professes to be a "Corfu lover", told ANA/MPA that the aim of the School is to organise international seminars on Corfu with speakers from all over the world, on the themes that the Durrell brothers were keen on, such as culture, literature, zoology, ecology and the arts. Clarifying the reasons behind his vision of establishing such a School, he noted that Corfu was a very important place for the Durrell brothers. Lawrence, he said, was just 23 years old when he moved there, but as he as written in his books, he discovered himself on Corfu. Greece gives you the ability to discover yourself, Lawrence would say, according to Pine. As for Gerald, he was still a child when he went to Corfu, but his experiences there put their mark on his later course. "That is why I chose Greece, and particularly Corfu" to set up the School, Pine said. Next May, the School is organising a seminar on Ionian history and culture, which will include not only Corfu but the other Ionian islands as well, such as Cephallonia and Ithaka, while a large delegation of visitors is also awaited from North America. The seminars offered by the School are attended by people of all ages and educational level: from university professors and pensioners to young people seeking new experiences. *************************************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga Charles-Sligh at utc.edu *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu Oct 8 08:25:56 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 08:25:56 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Lawrence and Gerald Durrell's Corfu In-Reply-To: <1255003132.46cc1c3cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> References: <1255003132.46cc1c3cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> Message-ID: Good to see that Pine's Durrell School of Corfu continues to operate, even during these hard times. BR On Oct 8, 2009, at 4:58 AM, Charles Sligh wrote: > > > https://smi.utc.edu/w?Nh.E0.EDyQ.S7TsztQ.EBgEg.Cy9LNSg.K > > Lawrence and Gerald Durrell's Corfu > > The Durrell brothers discovered the island of Corfu in their > youth, and became enchanted with its beauties but also its people > and the 'aroma' of the Ionian Sea, which crop up frequently in their > writings later. > > Gerald Durrel grew up to become a naturalist, zookeeper, author > and television presenter and his older brother Lawrence became a > noted novelist, poet and travel writer. > > Lawrence was 23, and already married, when his family -- his wife, > mother, younger brother and sister -- settled on Corfu in 1935, and > Gerald was barely 10. Lawrence became intrigued with the ancient and > Modern Greek language, while he also started to write poems and > broaden his circle of contacts with several Greek writers. > > Lawrence later wrote about the family's carefree years on the > island, the tenderness and innocence of the people of Corfu in the > mid-war years, in two of his books: Prospero's Cell (1945) and Blue > Thirst (1975). > > The island's quaint and unadulterated beauty also inspired Gerald > who, too, later wrote about the family's life and experiences on > Corfu in his anecdote filled book My Family and Other Animals > (1962), which brings with his great affection for the island and its > people. > > But the people of Corfu, too, did not remain untouched by the > Durrell brothers' stay on the island, and the memories linger on > despite the passing of time. > > The locals proudly talk about the two British writers who had > their island their second home, and never miss an opportunity to > point out to visitors the 'white house' in the tiny village of > Kalamos where the Durrells lived. > > Today, the house is a hostel and its current owners have taken > care to keep alive the memories of the Durrells and that carefree > epoch. > > The Durrell brothers have inspired many people, including British > writer Richard Pine who has not only studied the brothers' ties with > the island, but also established in 2002 The Durrell School of > Corfu, which offers a wide range of activities, such as weekly > seminars on the brothers' writing and the rich cultural heritage of > the Mediterranean, excursions, and lectures on the same subject. > > Pine, who himself also professes to be a "Corfu lover", told ANA/ > MPA that the aim of the School is to organise international seminars > on Corfu with speakers from all over the world, on the themes that > the Durrell brothers were keen on, such as culture, literature, > zoology, ecology and the arts. > > Clarifying the reasons behind his vision of establishing such a > School, he noted that Corfu was a very important place for the > Durrell brothers. Lawrence, he said, was just 23 years old when he > moved there, but as he as written in his books, he discovered > himself on Corfu. Greece gives you the ability to discover yourself, > Lawrence would say, according to Pine. As for Gerald, he was still a > child when he went to Corfu, but his experiences there put their > mark on his later course. > > "That is why I chose Greece, and particularly Corfu" to set up the > School, Pine said. > > Next May, the School is organising a seminar on Ionian history and > culture, which will include not only Corfu but the other Ionian > islands as well, such as Cephallonia and Ithaka, while a large > delegation of visitors is also awaited from North America. > > The seminars offered by the School are attended by people of all > ages and educational level: from university professors and > pensioners to young people seeking new experiences. > *************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > Charles-Sligh at utc.edu > *************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From dtart at bigpond.net.au Thu Oct 8 14:44:03 2009 From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 08:44:03 +1100 Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 6 References: Message-ID: <5593F41EE94F49E0B0FA71BEA6C84532@MumandDad> I note that none of the participants in the discussion are female. Or did I miss something? Brewster Perhaps, due to the latest crisis in western feminism, only blokes have time to contrubute to the list? I am not aware of anything preventing comments from women and they certainly have in the past and even present if Bruce is correct. David 16 William Street Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au www.denisetart.com.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091009/ad2fb69f/attachment.html From rwhedges at hotmail.co.uk Thu Oct 8 12:23:12 2009 From: rwhedges at hotmail.co.uk (RW HEDGES) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 19:23:12 +0000 Subject: [ilds] (no subject) Message-ID: Churchills school report was awful. He was labelled a failure and was considered so by his father. He must have hated Harrow. Its a terrible place. I was thinking of Durrells Pudding Island remark the other day because I finished AA Gills "The Angry Island (Hunting the English)" A wonderful book. One that would have made Churchill cough up a Cigar(Unless he could see England now!) but Durrell would have been delighted with. The public schools are and were horrible places. All of poor Orwells experiences can be laughed at now but actually they shaped a sorry side of him I think. I am sure he still haunts Uxbridge where he wrote half of his Burmese Days. Down the road from here actually. But Durrell, he was all about ignoring the existence of the stuffy cathedrals for the learned. Surely a book like Prosperos Cell tells us so? Roy _________________________________________________________________ Learn how to add other email accounts to Hotmail in 3 easy steps. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/167688463/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091008/45f0cb57/attachment.html From dtart at bigpond.net.au Thu Oct 8 18:16:56 2009 From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 12:16:56 +1100 Subject: [ilds] Not to be Known Always Wounds Message-ID: <1D2941E34E4A45D8B619A5EFC40411FB@MumandDad> Not to be Known Always Wounds Durrell and Miller, Doubly displaced exiles, Mediterranean fortune seekers fleeing The English Death, the air-conditioned nightmare; Memory translated into fiction, Not quite accurate. The landscape and politics poorly described. Praising Greeks, detesting Arabs, Self serving egoists Building careers out of being dispossessed, Falling for exotic landscapes and women - Women, nude as pearl in grubby rooms - Casting off the shackles of reason, A disfunctional relationship mirrored in a state of mind A novel, a poem, a broken marriage or two, Another empty bottle and another on the way. Recognition at last, Hushed applause in a bare, old room, writing to each other in silent pose, Leaving a lasting pain for a foreign home, Whispered. David Green 10/10.2009 16 William Street Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au www.denisetart.com.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091009/aaa88874/attachment.html From dtart at bigpond.net.au Thu Oct 8 18:25:41 2009 From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 12:25:41 +1100 Subject: [ilds] Durrell on the French Message-ID: Regarding Pombal: "Nevertheless there is no woman too humble, too battered, too old, to receive those outward attentions - those little gallantries and sorties of wit which I have come to associate with the Gallic temperament; the heady meretricious French charm which evaporates so easily into pride and mental indolence - like French thought which flows so quickly into sand moulds, the original espirit hardening immediately into deadening concepts. " (Justine page 33) Mmm, a nation described in a few sentences? reminds of plan 17 before the First World War - the original espirit hardened into a deadening concept. David Green 16 William Street Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au www.denisetart.com.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091009/0036f702/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Oct 9 07:56:50 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 07:56:50 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Durrell on the French In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David raises an interesting and important point. Maybe someone who's studied Durrell's stylistics should comment on his penchant for aphorisms and "gnomic" remarks, as he calls them somewhere. What do they say about the man? And what about this one? Should we simply attribute the comment to Darley's na?vet?? Or is this actually Durrell the narrator speaking? It takes a lot of hubris to reduce "French thought," if there is such a thing, which I doubt, to "sand moulds." The French and their intellectual history are surely too subtle, too diverse, and too independent to be summed up in one metaphor. The French themselves like aphorism, hence those of La Rochefoucauld, so maybe it's all ironic. A joke. I'm not even sure what a "sand mould" is, never having encountered any on the beach. Bruce On Oct 8, 2009, at 6:25 PM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote: > Regarding Pombal: > > "Nevertheless there is no woman too humble, too battered, too old, > to receive those outward attentions - those little gallantries and > sorties of wit which I have come to associate with the Gallic > temperament; the heady meretricious French charm which evaporates so > easily into pride and mental indolence - like French thought which > flows so quickly into sand moulds, the original espirit hardening > immediately into deadening concepts. " (Justine page 33) > > Mmm, a nation described in a few sentences? > > reminds of plan 17 before the First World War - the original espirit > hardened into a deadening concept. > > > David Green > 16 William Street > Marrickville NSW 2204 > +61 2 9564 6165 > 0412 707 625 > dtart at bigpond.net.au > www.denisetart.com.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091009/875ea840/attachment.html From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Fri Oct 9 09:34:56 2009 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 12:34:56 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell on the French Message-ID: <1255106096.95f6933cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Redwine Maybe someone who's studied Durrell's stylistics should comment on his penchant for aphorisms and "gnomic" remarks, as he calls them somewhere. What do they say about the man? And what about this one? Should we simply attribute the comment to Darley's na?vet?? Or is this actually Durrell the narrator speaking? Bruce: Thanks for the question. These exercises are interesting, but I can only try in a very quick sort of way. Again, I am on borrowed computer time until my new MacBook arrives. Please pitch in from FRANCE, Marc &c. See my bracketed remarks below--I am using David's text, which I am sure Bill Godshalk will collate for variants--Charles > "Nevertheless [here is a clue--"Nevertheless"--that sets the essayist's and aphorist's tone--also the tone of the Silver Age travel writers--Darley is signaling his fitness to make universal maxims--notice how he starts general then gets increasingly more detailed in his terms] there is no woman [again, very like an 18th century essayist--someone to declare essentials and universals] too humble, too battered, too old, > to receive those outward attentions - those little gallantries and > sorties of wit which I have come to associate with the Gallic > temperament [I find this part charming, really; Darley is giving us a kind of imagined stage-play, with stock Frenchman and Spinster--he makes her feel young and appreciated once again, and, true or not, where is the harm in that?]; the heady meretricious French charm [now the incisive terms begin] which evaporates so > easily into pride and mental indolence - like French thought [all of French thought???] which > flows so quickly into sand moulds [the figure drawn from sculpting is curious--perhaps he means that, as in the work of lesser sculptors, the molten "ideal" is more noble than the solidified actual?--cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_casting], the original espirit hardening > immediately into deadening concepts. " (Justine page 33) > > *************************************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga Charles-Sligh at utc.edu *************************************** From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Fri Oct 9 09:47:07 2009 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 12:47:07 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell on the French Message-ID: <1255106827.95f6933cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Redwine Should we simply attribute the comment to Darley's na?vet?? Or is this actually Durrell the narrator speaking? Bruce: Let me also add I would read Darley's comment on Pombal "meretricious" charm as a part of the larger strategy of the opening edpisodes of _Justine_, which put the "Pudding Island" moral certainties of Bournemouth &c. into alien and uncomfortable surrounding. Marquis de Sade, Freud, Homosexuality, Gay Poets and Poetry, spices, Adultery, exotic dancers, Child Prostitution, Hashish, slaughtered camels, a dead fetus, and charming lady-killing Frenchmen--oh my. . . . That said, how does Darley's pronouncement about "French Thought" work if we bring it into proximity with the opening epigraph on "Lovely Therese" and her little mind? C&c. *************************************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga Charles-Sligh at utc.edu *************************************** _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds *************************************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga Charles-Sligh at utc.edu *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Oct 9 10:36:54 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 10:36:54 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Durrell on the French In-Reply-To: <1255106827.95f6933cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> References: <1255106827.95f6933cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> Message-ID: <798CFBD3-B6D6-42C7-B837-007BEDED9567@earthlink.net> Charles, Well said and thanks for referencing a broader context and strategy. So, the aphorism is ironic? Is that what you're suggesting? I'm slow. Off hand, I don't see how a fatuous metaphor on "French thought" corresponds to or elaborates on the De Sade epigraph, its either/or argument for crime and suicide, unless both are meant to be taken as silly. The strategy undermines itself. I suspect, however, that no such over-arching plan is going on here, in this instance, with Darley/Durrell. I think that Durrell likes his quips and will drop them like plums wherever he can to spruce up his narrative. Seems to me that the real "sand moulds" are some of Durrell's metaphors. Bruce On Oct 9, 2009, at 9:47 AM, Charles Sligh wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Redwine > > Should we simply > attribute the comment to Darley's na?vet?? Or is this actually > Durrell the narrator speaking? > > Bruce: > > Let me also add I would read Darley's comment on Pombal > "meretricious" charm as a part of the larger strategy of the opening > edpisodes of _Justine_, which put the "Pudding Island" moral > certainties of Bournemouth &c. into alien and uncomfortable > surrounding. > > Marquis de Sade, Freud, Homosexuality, Gay Poets and Poetry, spices, > Adultery, exotic dancers, Child Prostitution, Hashish, slaughtered > camels, a dead fetus, and charming lady-killing Frenchmen--oh > my. . . . > > That said, how does Darley's pronouncement about "French Thought" > work if we bring it into proximity with the opening epigraph on > "Lovely Therese" and her little mind? > > C&c. > > *************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > Charles-Sligh at utc.edu > *************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091009/6a6d8600/attachment.html From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Fri Oct 9 11:16:33 2009 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 14:16:33 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell on the French Message-ID: <1255112193.51ed9c1cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> "I think that Durrell likes his quips and will drop them like plums wherever he can to spruce up his narrative." (Bruce) Or drops them one by one, like cherries into lambent waters. . . . I was not thinking about irony. I was diving for other Durrellian references to French thought in Justine and came up with Lovely Therese. We need our French readers to tell us more. In the interviews Durrell elevates French food and drink and painting and brothels over British fare. But is French "thought" somehow different? I would expect a Durrellian character to observe that how a nation eats or drinks or makes love is a more eloquent testimonial to its cultural values than all of its philosophers could make. . . . C&c. *************************************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga Charles-Sligh at utc.edu *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Oct 9 12:05:35 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 12:05:35 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Durrell on the French In-Reply-To: <1255112193.51ed9c1cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> References: <1255112193.51ed9c1cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> Message-ID: Charles, Have to disagree here. I will be presumptuous and wave the French tricolor. I don't take Darley's/Durrell's use of "French thought" as a remotely possible reference, if you're so implying, to French "cultural values" of food, wine, and sex. Durrell's phrase occurs in the context of "deadening concepts," ideas or ratiocination, and I don't think many would consider French food or all the others "deadening concepts." Bruce On Oct 9, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Charles Sligh wrote: > "I think that Durrell likes his quips and will > drop them like plums wherever he can to spruce up his > narrative." (Bruce) > > Or drops them one by one, like cherries into lambent waters. . . . > > I was not thinking about irony. > > I was diving for other Durrellian references to French thought in > Justine and came up with Lovely Therese. > > We need our French readers to tell us more. > > In the interviews Durrell elevates French food and drink and > painting and brothels over British fare. > > But is French "thought" somehow different? > > I would expect a Durrellian character to observe that how a nation > eats or drinks or makes love is a more eloquent testimonial to its > cultural values than all of its philosophers could make. . . . > > C&c. > *************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > Charles-Sligh at utc.edu > *************************************** From dtart at bigpond.net.au Fri Oct 9 12:29:48 2009 From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 06:29:48 +1100 Subject: [ilds] Bravo: Not to be Known Always Wounds References: <0BEF02A471383D429ADB5873552EF095746C2A4145@mail2.directed.com> Message-ID: <053ED1CE89254402A4C972AA343A1F94@MumandDad> I quite enjoyed that. So sad in the collected Letters - hoping for a Nobel Prize that never came. -- Ken Thanks Ken. I wrote it after an afternoon in my study listening to ILDS lectures and seminars and interviews with LD, Miller reading his work and reading through Justine so this poem thing has many authors really and I'm just a cobbler by trade. Fame can be fleeting. Durrell is lucky in a way that IDLS exists. The Americans have done much to promote him. His not being actually being English and his continental themes have probably limited the study of him in Britain. Cheers David 16 William Street Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au www.denisetart.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Gammage To: dtart at bigpond.net.au Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 2:38 AM Subject: Bravo: [ilds] Not to be Known Always Wounds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091010/fba2da68/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Oct 9 15:02:42 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 15:02:42 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Bravo: Not to be Known Always Wounds In-Reply-To: <053ED1CE89254402A4C972AA343A1F94@MumandDad> References: <0BEF02A471383D429ADB5873552EF095746C2A4145@mail2.directed.com> <053ED1CE89254402A4C972AA343A1F94@MumandDad> Message-ID: <68E76194-5EFD-4984-B291-B62BFB5485C0@earthlink.net> Yes, let me also congratulate David Green on his very good poem about those "doubles," L. Durrell and H. Miller. It's particularly apt during this season of Nobel awards. Undoubtedly those two coveted such an award, but there's another side to LD, the one I recall best, who has Mountolive quote from his father's preface to a Pali text: "For those of us who stand upon the margins of the world, as yet unsolicited by any God, the only truth is that work itself is Love." That's the way I prefer to see M. Durrell in Provence. That's the Durrell who wanted, however seriously, to join an old man in some remote Buddhist monastery. Bruce On Oct 9, 2009, at 12:29 PM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote: > I quite enjoyed that. So sad in the collected Letters ? hoping for a > Nobel Prize that never came. > > -- Ken > > > Thanks Ken. I wrote it after an afternoon in my study listening to > ILDS lectures and seminars and interviews with LD, Miller reading > his work and reading through Justine so this poem thing has many > authors really and I'm just a cobbler by trade. > > Fame can be fleeting. Durrell is lucky in a way that IDLS exists. > The Americans have done much to promote him. His not being actually > being English and his continental themes have probably limited the > study of him in Britain. > > Cheers > > David > > > > 16 William Street > Marrickville NSW 2204 > +61 2 9564 6165 > 0412 707 625 > dtart at bigpond.net.au > www.denisetart.com.au > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ken Gammage > To: dtart at bigpond.net.au > Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 2:38 AM > Subject: Bravo: [ilds] Not to be Known Always Wounds > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091009/b6a5d3d0/attachment.html From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Fri Oct 9 16:11:10 2009 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 19:11:10 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell on the French Message-ID: <1255129870.53adcd3cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> No, Bruce, that was neither my meaning nor my intention. I seem to agree with what you write. I think. Perhaps we are taking the long way around? Let's take stock. Durrell the Man admired French food and drink and manners. Check. Durrell the Writer beget Darley, who says something rather curious about French thought tending to harden into moulds. Check. What does Darley mean? I do not know. Charles *************************************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga Charles-Sligh at utc.edu *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Oct 9 19:02:51 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:02:51 -0700 Subject: [ilds] Durrell on the French In-Reply-To: <1255129870.53adcd3cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> References: <1255129870.53adcd3cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> Message-ID: Charles, I'm glad we agree. What Darley means, however, is abundantly clear and not at all flattering to the French: "Nevertheless there is no woman too humble, too battered, too old, to receive those outward attentions -- those little gallantries and sorties of wit which I have come to associate with the Gallic temperament; the heady meretricious French charm which evaporates so easily into pride and mental indolence -- like French thought which flows so quickly into sand-moulds, the original esprit hardening immediately into deadening concepts" (AQ, 1968, p. 37). Bruce On Oct 9, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Charles Sligh wrote: > No, Bruce, that was neither my meaning nor my intention. > > I seem to agree with what you write. I think. > > Perhaps we are taking the long way around? > > Let's take stock. > > Durrell the Man admired French food and drink and manners. Check. > > Durrell the Writer beget Darley, who says something rather curious > about French thought tending to harden into moulds. Check. > > What does Darley mean? > > I do not know. > > Charles > > > *************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > Charles-Sligh at utc.edu > *************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091009/45e12b44/attachment.html From sumantranag at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 05:15:00 2009 From: sumantranag at gmail.com (Sumantra Nag) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:45:00 +0530 Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 7_Message: 2_University References: Message-ID: <009201ca49a3$4c0567c0$0301a8c0@abc> Bruce: "Durrell probably got a good education at his, before he went out into the world. He seems to know his Latin. What he missed and could have profited from, I think, was the critical exercise of going one on one with a tutor." I found it interesting to take the case of Vladimir Nabokov who was at Cambridge University between 1919 and 1923, getting a good honours degree and even sometimes excelling in Russian and French, subjects to which he changed after having initially started with zoology. His brother Segei was also with him in Cambridge and so, it seems, were other Russian students, at least some of whom, like Nabokov himself, were from aristocratic backgrounds. But Vladimir Nabokov seemed to have had a capacity for hard work which he applied to his academic field while he continued to write poetry. His early training in French, Russian and English may have also helped him to perform well. Although Nabokov's family was immensely wealthy in Russia, they came to England as emigres after the Bolshevik revolution so money was not available in excess. An interesting point is that with his family members in England or in Europe (Berlin) Vladimir Nabokov spent his holidays in their company. His father was shot dead in Berlin while he was still in Cambridge. Sumantra ----------------------------- > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 14:15:39 -0700 > From: Bruce Redwine > Subject: [ilds] English Public Schools > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Cc: Bruce Redwine > Message-ID: <0AB939D4-797B-4B89-8809-05044F253D24 at earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Sumantra, yes, the English public schools ("private" in American > terms) are superior educational institutions and excel at preparing > their students for the university. They have other reputations, > however, and it's always interesting to read Orwell's "Such, such were > the joys" for another perspective. The essay describes the social > climate at St. Cyprian's, before Orwell attended Eton. Durrell > probably got a good education at his, before he went out into the > world. He seems to know his Latin. What he missed and could have > profited from, I think, was the critical exercise of going one on one > with a tutor. A situation where one writes a weekly essay and then > has to defend it word for word, assuming that was and is the process > at one of the Oxbridge colleges. If he had done that, he might have > avoided some of his questionable remarks on literature and the sciences. > > > Bruce > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sat Oct 10 16:01:42 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:01:42 -0700 Subject: [ilds] The Education of a Writer In-Reply-To: <009201ca49a3$4c0567c0$0301a8c0@abc> References: <009201ca49a3$4c0567c0$0301a8c0@abc> Message-ID: <16D3F2BA-089F-4806-A0CA-1696F9BAAD17@earthlink.net> Sumantra, Nabokov is an excellent example of what a good education can do for a young writer. As you know, he came to the States and taught a course in European literature at Cornell for a while. He was a rigorous teacher, demanding, and his exams were reportedly horrific, requiring a lot of specific knowledge. I think Durrell suffered from not having such training and discipline. Some of his writings are just fatuous and outlandish, to wit, the gnomic remark in Justine about "French thought." I'm sure he couldn't have made that sally to a Cambridge tutor, or a Nabokov, and gotten away with it, unless, as I said, it's intended to be taken as an example of Darley's na?vet?. Bruce On Oct 10, 2009, at 5:15 AM, Sumantra Nag wrote: > Bruce: "Durrell probably got a good education at his, before he > went out > into the world. He seems to know his Latin. What he missed and > could have > profited from, I think, was the critical exercise of going one on > one with > a tutor." > > I found it interesting to take the case of Vladimir Nabokov who was at > Cambridge University between 1919 and 1923, getting a good honours > degree > and even sometimes excelling in Russian and French, subjects to > which he > changed after having initially started with zoology. His brother > Segei was > also with him in Cambridge and so, it seems, were other Russian > students, at > least some of whom, like Nabokov himself, were from aristocratic > backgrounds. But Vladimir Nabokov seemed to have had a capacity for > hard > work which he applied to his academic field while he continued to > write > poetry. His early training in French, Russian and English may have > also > helped him to perform well. Although Nabokov's family was immensely > wealthy > in Russia, they came to England as emigres after the Bolshevik > revolution so > money was not available in excess. An interesting point is that with > his > family members in England or in Europe (Berlin) Vladimir Nabokov > spent his > holidays in their company. His father was shot dead in Berlin while > he was > still in Cambridge. > > Sumantra > ----------------------------- >> Message: 2 >> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 14:15:39 -0700 >> From: Bruce Redwine >> Subject: [ilds] English Public Schools >> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> Cc: Bruce Redwine >> Message-ID: <0AB939D4-797B-4B89-8809-05044F253D24 at earthlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Sumantra, yes, the English public schools ("private" in American >> terms) are superior educational institutions and excel at preparing >> their students for the university. They have other reputations, >> however, and it's always interesting to read Orwell's "Such, such >> were >> the joys" for another perspective. The essay describes the social >> climate at St. Cyprian's, before Orwell attended Eton. Durrell >> probably got a good education at his, before he went out into the >> world. He seems to know his Latin. What he missed and could have >> profited from, I think, was the critical exercise of going one on one >> with a tutor. A situation where one writes a weekly essay and then >> has to defend it word for word, assuming that was and is the process >> at one of the Oxbridge colleges. If he had done that, he might have >> avoided some of his questionable remarks on literature and the >> sciences. >> >> >> Bruce >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091010/bffd0567/attachment.html From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Sun Oct 11 11:12:51 2009 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:12:51 -0400 Subject: [ilds] The Education of a Writer Message-ID: <1255284771.9604bbfcCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> I think you may be right about this issue of "discipline," Bruce. There is an _ascesis_ in Nabokov's style that you do not find in Durrell's style. Despite that note, I prefer Durrell's writing to Nabokov's writing. I would never insist that Durrell is a stronger writer than Nabokov. There are too many subjective variables to consider. I think I gather up writers who have a special fascination for me, writers who--how to say it?--have a "mixed and uncertain condition." These days I shrink from the "greats." Why? I think I like mortal things, varied things. The giants throw such terrible shadows, and I suspect them of not being very much like us. And those giants, they do re-arrange all of the furniture when they come over for a visit. . . . Charles -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Redwine Nabokov is an excellent example of what a good education can do for a young writer[. . . .] I think Durrell suffered from not having such training and discipline. *************************************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga Charles-Sligh at utc.edu *************************************** From gkoger at mindspring.com Sun Oct 11 10:28:33 2009 From: gkoger at mindspring.com (gkoger at mindspring.com) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 7_Message: 2_University Message-ID: <6001631.1255282114011.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Re Durrell's lack of formal education, it might be useful to remember the law of unintended consequences. Durrell would have been a different person had he attended university, but who knows whether his literary career would have thrived or wilted. It almost certainly would have been different. The fact that he went on to produce world-class fiction and travel literature suggests to me that his instincts were valid. I find the comments re Nabokov suggestive, but perhaps not in the way intended. Surely many of Nabokov's remarks on literature (including his wholesale dismissal of numerous highly regarded writers) are more "questionable" than Durrell's. (Whether we might regard them as "right" or "wrong" is a different matter.) Nabokov's views on some aspects of science might have been sounder, but as he also seems to have believed in the supernatural, perhaps not. And if we consider psychology as a science, the picture is fuzzier still. Nabokov's frequent (and ultimately tiresome) remarks on Freud sound as if they were based on the most superficial popular magazine versions of Freud's theories, and to my way of thinking detract from his achievement. Grove >Bruce: "What he missed and could have profited from, I think, was the critical exercise of going one on one with a tutor.A situation where one writes a weekly essay and then has to defend it word for word, assuming that was and is the process at one of the Oxbridge colleges. If he had done that, he might have avoided some of his questionable remarks on literature and the sciences." >Sumantra: "I found it interesting to take the case of Vladimir Nabokov who was at >Cambridge University between 1919 and 1923, getting a good honours degree >and even sometimes excelling in Russian and French, subjects to which he >changed after having initially started with zoology." > From Charles-Sligh at utc.edu Sun Oct 11 14:04:46 2009 From: Charles-Sligh at utc.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:04:46 -0400 Subject: [ilds] VN & LD Message-ID: <1255295086.921ae81cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> -----Original Message----- From: gkoger at mindspring.com Surely many of Nabokov's remarks on literature (including his wholesale dismissal of numerous highly regarded writers) are more "questionable" than Durrell's. ******** I would put it another way. If I had the opportunity to sit down for an evening with either VN or LD, I would choose LD. Durrell's recorded conversations on tape and film seem to me more human, more humane. They sparkle with surprising jumps. He learned to talk in the cafes and wine cellars, and he is very nimble. VN had the privilege to always to from above. Thus his stated preference--ungranted by his university deans--for recording his lectures to be played over tape to students, with whom he did not wish to mingle. . . . LD's ideal was more like Kipling's Kim or Homer's Odysseus--a "little friend of all the world," able to walk among all orders and know their minds and manners. . . . And LD's remarks are full of a kind a late-Roman pity for the fallen, those benighted writers of a previous generation who have passed on and whose reputations may also be shuffling into oblivion. . . . I do not find those surprising sorties or that sympathy for the fallen in VN. VN is strikingly cold and aphoristic, and in his discrimination and his dismissal he is absolutely imperial, cutting--like some old fencing master at service in the court of a princeling, taking his aristocratic charge to task for not keeping up to the mark. . . . I believe that VN called Borges "a metaphysician in a sombrero." I will be beholden to anyone who can give me the precise quote. . . . CLS *************************************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English University of Tennessee at Chattanooga Charles-Sligh at utc.edu *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Oct 11 15:27:38 2009 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:27:38 -0700 Subject: [ilds] VN & LD In-Reply-To: <1255295086.921ae81cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> References: <1255295086.921ae81cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> Message-ID: <6CB7A41B-CFA1-4B8F-9DEB-4CC72AADEB6C@earthlink.net> Charles, I'm not referring to opinions about literary value, which authors are worthwhile and which not. That is largely a matter of taste, and as has long been established, matters of taste are not matters of dispute: de gusitbus non est disputandum. Durrell and Nabokov had their preferences and both were capable of highly-charged, idiosyncratic opinions. But so what? That was their right. No problem there. I'm referring to precision of thought, the kind which we have been discussing. For good reason Durrell decided, either on his own or on the advice of his editor, to eliminate his 1958 note to Balthazar from the collected 1962 edition of the Quartet. That statement about his plan as a "soup-mix," with embellishments from Einstein's Relativity theory about space-time, is silly and and won't hold up under scrutiny. You may take his note as an extended metaphor, exciting in its sweep and novelty, but on close examination it looks pompous and foolish. It won't hold up ? writing four novels from different perspectives is equatable to General Relativity? Or was it Special Relativity? ? neither of which I even pretend to understand, except in the most simplified sense. I like to think a good education will train you to think clearly and accurately, and I don't think this would have harmed any of Durrell's "instincts." Bruce On Oct 11, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Charles Sligh wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: gkoger at mindspring.com > > Surely many of Nabokov's remarks on literature (including his > wholesale dismissal of numerous highly regarded writers) are more > "questionable" than Durrell's. > > > ******** > > I would put it another way. > > If I had the opportunity to sit down for an evening with either VN > or LD, I would choose LD. > > Durrell's recorded conversations on tape and film seem to me more > human, more humane. They sparkle with surprising jumps. He > learned to talk in the cafes and wine cellars, and he is very nimble. > > VN had the privilege to always to from above. Thus his stated > preference--ungranted by his university deans--for recording his > lectures to be played over tape to students, with whom he did not > wish to mingle. . . . > > LD's ideal was more like Kipling's Kim or Homer's Odysseus--a > "little friend of all the world," able to walk among all orders and > know their minds and manners. . . . > > And LD's remarks are full of a kind a late-Roman pity for the > fallen, those benighted writers of a previous generation who have > passed on and whose reputations may also be shuffling into > oblivion. . . . > > I do not find those surprising sorties or that sympathy for the > fallen in VN. > > VN is strikingly cold and aphoristic, and in his discrimination and > his dismissal he is absolutely imperial, cutting--like some old > fencing master at service in the court of a princeling, taking his > aristocratic charge to task for not keeping up to the mark. . . . > > I believe that VN called Borges "a metaphysician in a sombrero." I > will be beholden to anyone who can give me the precise quote. . . . > > CLS > *************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > Charles-Sligh at utc.edu > *************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20091011/fc1f38e3/attachment.html From gkoger at mindspring.com Sun Oct 11 16:02:44 2009 From: gkoger at mindspring.com (gkoger at mindspring.com) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 19:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] VN & LD Message-ID: <19888514.1255302164859.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Can't help with the exact quote, but in a 1964 interview he referred to Borges and Robbe-Grillet in this way: "How freely and gratefully one breathes in their marvelous labyrinths! I love their lucidity of thought, the purity and poetry, the mirage in the mirror." But in a letter that Nabokov wrote 20 years later, he referred to "Borges' flimsy little fables." I also recall that at some point in his life, Nabokov said something to the effect that he and his wife had enjoyed the view from Borges' terrace, but had eventually discovered that there was no house. But now, of course, I can't find that quote either . . . Grove Charles: "I believe that VN called Borges "a metaphysician in a sombrero." I will be beholden to anyone who can give me the precise quote. . . ." From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Sun Oct 11 14:35:59 2009 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 23:35:59 +0200 Subject: [ilds] VN & LD In-Reply-To: <1255295086.921ae81cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> References: <1255295086.921ae81cCharles-Sligh@utc.edu> Message-ID: <4AD24FBF.9000703@interdesign.fr> Hello Charles, Thank you for your posts. As you know , I am not an academic, but an instinctive; interesting that that leads me to the same conclusions as you. No to Nabakov, yes to LD, Hemingway, Maupassant, Balzac, Flaubert.... people who lived and wrote from their guts. All these posts about education or not education is prety irrelevant to the capacity, or should I say capability of real writing. Sincere salutations, Marc Charles Sligh a ?crit : > -----Original Message----- > From: gkoger at mindspring.com > > Surely many of Nabokov's remarks on literature (including his wholesale dismissal of numerous highly regarded writers) are more "questionable" than Durrell's. > > > ******** > > I would put it another way. > > If I had the opportunity to sit down for an evening with either VN or LD, I would choose LD. > > Durrell's recorded conversations on tape and film seem to me more human, more humane. They sparkle with surprising jumps. He learned to talk in the cafes and wine cellars, and he is very nimble. > > VN had the privilege to always to from above. Thus his stated preference--ungranted by his university deans--for recording his lectures to be played over tape to students, with whom he did not wish to mingle. . . . > > LD's ideal was more like Kipling's Kim or Homer's Odysseus--a "little friend of all the world," able to walk among all orders and know their minds and manners. . . . > > And LD's remarks are full of a kind a late-Roman pity for the fallen, those benighted writers of a previous generation who have passed on and whose reputations may also be shuffling into oblivion. . . . > > I do not find those surprising sorties or that sympathy for the fallen in VN. > > VN is strikingly cold and aphoristic, and in his discrimination and his dismissal he is absolutely imperial, cutting--like some old fencing master at service in the court of a princeling, taking his aristocratic charge to task for not keeping up to the mark. . . . > > I believe that VN called Borges "a metaphysician in a sombrero." I will be beholden to anyone who can give me the precise quote. . . . > > CLS > *************************************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > Charles-Sligh at utc.edu > *************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > >