From richardpin at eircom.net  Mon Nov 12 01:59:11 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:59:11 -0000
Subject: [ilds] reality not semantic
References: <543721.88952.qm@web44913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00e301c82512$b52551a0$87461359@rpinelaptop>

Women and non-whites, maybe. Homosexuals, certainly not. LD had a soft spot for them. RP
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lois Rees 
  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 3:33 AM
  Subject: Re: [ilds] reality not semantic


  I see it like this.  Insufficient critical literature about Durrell concentrates on his celebration of the British Empire, colonialism, neo-colonialism and, in the Middle Eastern context, neo-Orientalism. This process of, to use Seferis' phrase,  "colonizing the mind" can no longer be the organizing principle of teaching literature in the decolonized world where the study of "English" has become the study of "english". In this connection the post-colonial critic Richard Pine asserts that "The very existence of post-colonial literatures undermines any project for the literary study in english which is postulated on a single culture masquerading as an originating center...the English canon is radically reduced within a new paradigm of english studies."  Given that this is the case, and given Durrell's subjective venom toward women, homosexuals and non-whites, how are we to enjoy his novels and his poetry?  I enjoy placing myself in Durrell's erotic world, but morally and intellectually I feel guilty.

  Lois Rees

  william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu> wrote:
    Actually, if you check the archive you will see that we have debated these topics and assertions at length and with a great deal of heat and animosity. But which specific topic would you care to comment upon? I suppose our members still have enough energy remaining to discuss your comments. 

    Bill


    At 09:20 PM 11/11/2007, you wrote:

      I was wondering if you ever discuss Lawrence Durrell's attitude towards gender and colonialism.  In his Quartet, Alexandria's space attests to gendered Orientalist constructions, anti feminist, anti homosexual and also racist.  It is false to read his narratives in these areas as metonymics of subalternity.  In Durrell's Alexandria his disguised subjectivity is a decidedly male imperial one.  Women and Egyptians are dehumanized.  Posing as the celebrant of personal liberation, Durrell is really an elitist colonialist whose cosmopolitanism is a cloak for his Eurocentric bias.  It would be interesting if you would discuss something important like this.

      Lois Rees





      william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu> wrote:

        At 07:34 PM 11/11/2007, you wrote:

          So what is it now?  The International Masturbation Society?


        Tsch, tsch. I can only speak for myself, of course, but I prefer copulation to masturbation.  But most of all I enjoy reading the novels and poems of Lawrence Durrell. How about you?


        WW

        ***************************************

        W. L. Godshalk           *

        Department of English         *

        University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *

        Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *

        513-281-5927

        ***************************************_______________________________________________

        ILDS mailing list

        ILDS at lists.uvic.ca

        https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



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    ***************************************
    W. L. Godshalk           *
    Department of English         *
    University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
    Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
    513-281-5927
    ***************************************_______________________________________________
    ILDS mailing list
    ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
    https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



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From sumantranag at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 06:13:46 2007
From: sumantranag at gmail.com (Sumantra Nag)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:43:46 +0530
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 2
References: <mailman.1.1194811204.2695412.ilds@lists.uvic.ca>
Message-ID: <002801c82536$433cf830$0501a8c0@intel>

Is there no one who can steer the ILDS back to discussing the novels of the Alexandra Quartet through the texts? Something which was started, then expanded to include other spontaneous issues which were often illuminating. But all this seems to have petered out into some kind of quagmire!  

Does no one miss the textual discussions?

Sumantra Nag

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 1:30 AM
Subject: ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 2

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From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Mon Nov 12 01:39:49 2007
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:39:49 +1100
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's venom
Message-ID: <005001c8250f$f84d6ce0$0201a8c0@MumandDad>


given Durrell's subjective venom toward women, homosexuals and non-whites, how are we to enjoy his novels and his poetry?

Well, even if Durrell had these venoms, I am able to enjoy his poetry and novels because they captivate me; the personality of the writer, his cosmology, his wit and, in fact, in many ways his compassion.

when Durrell describes Egyptians as apes in nightgowns, I don't feel guilty. I am reading another man's work. that's his image - not mine - and I can easily balance it against the glorious opening of Justine.

As for venom toward women, well love and hate can be close. In Prospero's Cell there some lovely subtle descriptions of Nancy the blond goddess whose painting are 'lazy'.

I guess I am lucky. I did not do feminism and political correctness 101 at university. I don't come to literature with the baggage that I have to be morally and intellectually correct or righteous - but then I am a heathen antipodean colonial.

David Green

Denise Tart & David Green
16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204

+61 2 9564 6165
0412 707 625
dtart at bigpond.net.au
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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Mon Nov 12 06:56:29 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:56:29 -0500
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <002801c82536$433cf830$0501a8c0@intel>
References: <mailman.1.1194811204.2695412.ilds@lists.uvic.ca>
	<002801c82536$433cf830$0501a8c0@intel>
Message-ID: <4738699D.9080101@wfu.edu>

On 11/12/2007 9:13 AM, Sumantra Nag wrote:
>
>     Does no one miss the textual discussions?
>
Thank you, Sumantra. 

I would invite Lois Rees to type out one particular passage of concern 
from Durrell's writings.  Whether you find the passage of your choice 
luscious, banal, or venomous, Lois, I care not.  I do care, however, 
that you set forth the evidence and that you  show what you mean with 
particularity, in the plainest language possible.

To be honest, the following email reads like the worst sort of 
programmatic abstract for a conference paper or an article that no one 
will listen to or read past the opening sentences:

>         In his Quartet, Alexandria's space attests to gendered
>         Orientalist constructions, anti feminist, anti homosexual and
>         also racist.  It is false to read his narratives in these
>         areas as metonymics of subalternity.  In Durrell's Alexandria
>         his disguised subjectivity is a decidedly male imperial one. 
>         Women and Egyptians are dehumanized.  Posing as the celebrant
>         of personal liberation, Durrell is really an elitist
>         colonialist whose cosmopolitanism is a cloak for his
>         Eurocentric bias.  It would be interesting if you would
>         discuss something important like this.

With a plot so well-known, with all the old familiar characters and 
clich?d outcomes pre-judged at the outset, who would carry on?   Like 
James Gifford, when I first read the note, I suspected that we were 
engaging a provocateur or a troll.  Surely no one would choose to speak 
in such robotic terms in order to be taken seriously.

And yet there is perhaps another side of greater interest, and I think 
that James, with his more infinite patience and broader interests, was 
intent on coaxing out this point.  To be fair, Lois, here in your 
closing query you speak with more honesty and greater interest:

>         Given that this is the case, and given Durrell's subjective
>         venom toward women, homosexuals and non-whites, how are we to
>         enjoy his novels and his poetry?  /I enjoy placing myself in
>         Durrell's erotic world, but morally and intellectually I feel
>         guilty/.

There's the rub, Lois.  If you do come to Durrell with the allegiances 
and ideologies that you /seem /to declare, you will feel conflicted, 
confused, convicted, and "guilty."   So give us a sample how you take 
your pleasures from Durrell, and then show us how your guilt recoils 
back upon itself.  That would be a drama worth sitting through.  As 
Hamlet says, "that would be scann'd."

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Mon Nov 12 07:38:59 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:38:59 +0100
Subject: [ilds] A tiny bit of reality...
In-Reply-To: <4738699D.9080101@wfu.edu>
References: <mailman.1.1194811204.2695412.ilds@lists.uvic.ca>	<002801c82536$433cf830$0501a8c0@intel>
	<4738699D.9080101@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <47387393.90404@interdesign.fr>

Hello everyone,
This has nothing to do with recent posts, but last 
week I had dinner with a female cousin (about 60) 
that I hadn't seen for 5 years: during filling in 
with news I spoke of LD, and she announced "I 
started the AQ last week". When asked why, she 
answered that it was a favorite of her daughters 
(25 years old)... so LD's writing is still very 
much alive and with a young and old audience!!!
BR
Marc

slighcl wrote:
> On 11/12/2007 9:13 AM, Sumantra Nag wrote:
> 
>>     Does no one miss the textual discussions?
>>
> Thank you, Sumantra. 
> 
> I would invite Lois Rees to type out one particular passage of concern 
> from Durrell's writings.  Whether you find the passage of your choice 
> luscious, banal, or venomous, Lois, I care not.  I do care, however, 
> that you set forth the evidence and that you  show what you mean with 
> particularity, in the plainest language possible.
> 
> To be honest, the following email reads like the worst sort of 
> programmatic abstract for a conference paper or an article that no one 
> will listen to or read past the opening sentences:
> 
>>         In his Quartet, Alexandria?s space attests to gendered
>>         Orientalist constructions, anti feminist, anti homosexual and
>>         also racist.  It is false to read his narratives in these
>>         areas as metonymics of subalternity.  In Durrell's Alexandria
>>         his disguised subjectivity is a decidedly male imperial one. 
>>         Women and Egyptians are dehumanized.  Posing as the celebrant
>>         of personal liberation, Durrell is really an elitist
>>         colonialist whose cosmopolitanism is a cloak for his
>>         Eurocentric bias.  It would be interesting if you would
>>         discuss something important like this.
> 
> With a plot so well-known, with all the old familiar characters and 
> clich?d outcomes pre-judged at the outset, who would carry on?   Like 
> James Gifford, when I first read the note, I suspected that we were 
> engaging a provocateur or a troll.  Surely no one would choose to speak 
> in such robotic terms in order to be taken seriously.
> 
> And yet there is perhaps another side of greater interest, and I think 
> that James, with his more infinite patience and broader interests, was 
> intent on coaxing out this point.  To be fair, Lois, here in your 
> closing query you speak with more honesty and greater interest:
> 
>>         Given that this is the case, and given Durrell's subjective
>>         venom toward women, homosexuals and non-whites, how are we to
>>         enjoy his novels and his poetry?  I enjoy placing myself in
>>         Durrell's erotic world, but morally and intellectually I feel
>>         guilty.
> 
> There's the rub, Lois.  If you do come to Durrell with the allegiances 
> and ideologies that you seem to declare, you will feel conflicted, 
> confused, convicted, and "guilty."   So give us a sample how you take 
> your pleasures from Durrell, and then show us how your guilt recoils 
> back upon itself.  That would be a drama worth sitting through.  As 
> Hamlet says, "that would be scann'd."
> 
> Charles
> 
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Mon Nov 12 10:47:50 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:47:50 -0500
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <4738699D.9080101@wfu.edu>
References: <mailman.1.1194811204.2695412.ilds@lists.uvic.ca>
	<002801c82536$433cf830$0501a8c0@intel> <4738699D.9080101@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <F5.E5.20239.BBF98374@gwout2>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 12 11:14:25 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:14:25 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 2
Message-ID: <2753745.1194894865808.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Mon Nov 12 12:36:40 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:36:40 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Alexandria
Message-ID: <F94B0756-915E-11DC-8E90-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

The British Council and the Bibliotheca Alexandrina are presenting an 
event in Alexandria later this month to mark the fiftieth anniversary 
of the publication of Justine.  All welcome.

http://www.britishcouncil.org/egypt-arts-culture-events-durrell.htm

:Michael


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Mon Nov 12 12:43:10 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:43:10 -0500
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <2753745.1194894865808.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.e
	arthlink.net>
References: <2753745.1194894865808.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5F.43.20239.4CAB8374@gwout2>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 12 12:47:27 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:47:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [ilds] Subjectivity
Message-ID: <25143225.1194900447884.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Another misreading.  But Bill, where do your words come from, if not from your subjectivity?


Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2007 3:43 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 2
>
>Bruce,
>
>Thank you for misreading me. My books are permeated with words, words,words. I'm the one and only thing permeated with subjectivity -- as faras I know. 
>
>Bill 
>
>At 02:14 PM 11/12/2007, you wrote:
>Ah, Bill, I knew you were withme all the time.  Subjectivity permeates art, so art does create itsown world.
>
>
>Bruce
>
>
>-----Original Message----- 
>From: william godshalk 
>Sent: Nov 12, 2007 10:47 AM 
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
>Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 2
>
>Lois writes:
>
> In Durrell's Alexandria his disguised subjectivity is adecidedly male imperial one. 
>Since Durrell's Alexandria is constructed only of words on a page orscreen, how can a character in this verbal construct have a"disguised subjectivity?" 
>
>Bill 



From slighcl at wfu.edu  Mon Nov 12 12:49:13 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:49:13 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Alexandria
In-Reply-To: <F94B0756-915E-11DC-8E90-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <F94B0756-915E-11DC-8E90-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <4738BC49.1080301@wfu.edu>

On 11/12/2007 3:36 PM, Michael Haag wrote:
> The British Council and the Bibliotheca Alexandrina are presenting an 
> event in Alexandria later this month to mark the fiftieth anniversary 
> of the publication of Justine.  All welcome.
>
> http://www.britishcouncil.org/egypt-arts-culture-events-durrell.htm
This sounds like a terrific event, Michael.  Thank you for publishing 
the news.

A general query, for Michael or anyone else: Will Faber publish a 
special edition of /Justine /to mark the fiftieth anniversary?  I think 
that I recall hearing the rumor that this would occur, but I have not 
seen any stirrings.

Thanks!

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Mon Nov 12 12:50:26 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:50:26 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Subjectivity
In-Reply-To: <25143225.1194900447884.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.s
	a.earthlink.net>
References: <25143225.1194900447884.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <A5.65.20239.87CB8374@gwout2>

At 03:47 PM 11/12/2007, you wrote:
>Another misreading.  But Bill, where do your words come from, if not 
>from your subjectivity?


No place. And certainly not my books!



>Bruce
>
>-----Original Message-----
> >From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> >Sent: Nov 12, 2007 3:43 PM
> >To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 2
> >
> >Bruce,
> >
> >Thank you for misreading me. My books are permeated with words, 
> words,words. I'm the one and only thing permeated with subjectivity 
> -- as faras I know.
> >
> >Bill
> >
> >At 02:14 PM 11/12/2007, you wrote:
> >Ah, Bill, I knew you were withme all the time.  Subjectivity 
> permeates art, so art does create itsown world.
> >
> >
> >Bruce
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: william godshalk
> >Sent: Nov 12, 2007 10:47 AM
> >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 2
> >
> >Lois writes:
> >
> > In Durrell's Alexandria his disguised subjectivity is adecidedly 
> male imperial one.
> >Since Durrell's Alexandria is constructed only of words on a page 
> orscreen, how can a character in this verbal construct have 
> a"disguised subjectivity?"
> >
> >Bill
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Mon Nov 12 12:57:15 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:57:15 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Alexandria
In-Reply-To: <4738BC49.1080301@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <D927DEF4-9161-11DC-8E90-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

I am not aware that they are.  No announcement that I have noticed, and 
anyway they should have done so early in the year.

:Michael


On Monday, November 12, 2007, at 08:49  pm, slighcl wrote:

> A general query, for Michael or anyone else: Will Faber publish a 
> special edition of Justine to mark the fiftieth anniversary?? I think 
> that I recall hearing the rumor that this would occur, but I have not 
> seen any stirrings.
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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 12:59:35 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:59:35 -0800
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <5F.43.20239.4CAB8374@gwout2>
References: <2753745.1194894865808.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<5F.43.20239.4CAB8374@gwout2>
Message-ID: <4738BEB7.8010808@gmail.com>

I was just teaching this week a marvelous passage in Iris Murdoch's _The 
Black Prince_ in which the narrator argues Hamlet is "words, words, 
words," and moreover that the real problem of the play (and Murdoch's 
novels) is that this is all we find as we explore subjectivity (such as 
Shax exploring his own Self through Hamlet, which is a dubious 
enterprise)...  I think that may be a very real meeting point for 
Murdoch and Durrell, two authors whose works sit adjacent in more ways 
than I think a casual comment can suffice to articulate.

Best,
James

william godshalk wrote:
> Bruce,
> 
> Thank you for misreading me. My books are permeated with words, words, 
> words. I'm the one and only thing permeated with subjectivity -- as far 
> as I know.
> 
> Bill
> 
> At 02:14 PM 11/12/2007, you wrote:
>> Ah, Bill, I knew you were with me all the time.  Subjectivity 
>> permeates art, so art does create its own world.
>>
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>     -----Original Message-----
>>     From: william godshalk
>>     Sent: Nov 12, 2007 10:47 AM
>>     To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>     Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 2
>>
>>>>         Lois writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>      In Durrell's Alexandria his disguised subjectivity is a
>>>>     decidedly male imperial one. 
>>
>>     Since Durrell's Alexandria is constructed only of words on a page
>>     or screen, how can a character in this verbal construct have a
>>     "disguised subjectivity?"
>>
>>     Bill
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     ILDS mailing list
>>     ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>     https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> ***************************************
> W. L. Godshalk           *
> Department of English         *
> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> 513-281-5927
> ***************************************
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Mon Nov 12 13:11:29 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:11:29 -0500
Subject: [ilds] words, words, words
In-Reply-To: <4738BEB7.8010808@gmail.com>
References: <2753745.1194894865808.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<5F.43.20239.4CAB8374@gwout2> <4738BEB7.8010808@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <97.AA.20239.761C8374@gwout2>

Thank you, Jamie, you have been duly recorded in my notes on character.

Shakescene aks Billy the Shake, also uses "words, words, words," in 
T&C. Troilus speaks, and, from his point of view, the words are meaningless.

Bill
***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 12 18:05:39 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:05:39 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Subjectivity
Message-ID: <18549295.1194919540029.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Ah, a Platonist.


BR

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2007 12:50 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Subjectivity
>
>At 03:47 PM 11/12/2007, you wrote:
>>Another misreading.  But Bill, where do your words come from, if not 
>>from your subjectivity?
>
>
>No place. And certainly not my books!
>
>
>>Bruce
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>> >From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>> >Sent: Nov 12, 2007 3:43 PM
>> >To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> >Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 2
>> >
>> >Bruce,
>> >
>> >Thank you for misreading me. My books are permeated with words, 
>> words,words. I'm the one and only thing permeated with subjectivity 
>> -- as faras I know.
>> >
>> >Bill
>> >
>> >At 02:14 PM 11/12/2007, you wrote:
>> >Ah, Bill, I knew you were withme all the time.  Subjectivity 
>> permeates art, so art does create itsown world.
>> >
>> >
>> >Bruce
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: william godshalk
>> >Sent: Nov 12, 2007 10:47 AM
>> >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> >Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 2
>> >
>> >Lois writes:
>> >
>> > In Durrell's Alexandria his disguised subjectivity is adecidedly 
>> male imperial one.
>> >Since Durrell's Alexandria is constructed only of words on a page 
>> orscreen, how can a character in this verbal construct have 
>> a"disguised subjectivity?"
>> >
>> >Bill


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Mon Nov 12 18:19:57 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:19:57 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Subjectivity
In-Reply-To: <18549295.1194919540029.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa
	.earthlink.net>
References: <18549295.1194919540029.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <64.C8.27345.2B909374@gwout1>

It's just that I can't prove that you exist. O, I suppose that is 
Platonic. He was the first philosopher I read.

WW
***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 12 18:44:50 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:44:50 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Subjectivity
Message-ID: <5369813.1194921891240.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I'm thinking more in terms of Plato's argument for universals, i.e., concepts, as seen in the Phaedo, where Socrates uses the Recollection Proof to show concepts exist independently of this world we live in.  You seem to be saying that, but then, maybe not.


BR

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2007 6:19 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Subjectivity
>
>It's just that I can't prove that you exist. O, I suppose that is 
>Platonic. He was the first philosopher I read.
>
>WW



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Mon Nov 12 19:33:57 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:33:57 -0500
Subject: [ilds] thus I refute Bishop Berkeley
In-Reply-To: <5369813.1194921891240.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.
	earthlink.net>
References: <5369813.1194921891240.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4B.A9.20239.A0B19374@gwout2>

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From minakakisl at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 19:28:53 2007
From: minakakisl at gmail.com (Lou Minakakis)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:28:53 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Alexandria
In-Reply-To: <D927DEF4-9161-11DC-8E90-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <4738BC49.1080301@wfu.edu>
	<D927DEF4-9161-11DC-8E90-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <8fe1f68d0711121928y6f70d889y8db5dd3127c19850@mail.gmail.com>

The agenda for the Alexandria conference lists this:

*
>
> Durrell the man
> Penelope Durrell
> My father Lawrence Durrell
> Michael Haag
> The Alexandria of Lawrence Durrell's time

*

Penelope Durrell is showing up to the event?  Must be cool to join this...

Has anyone seen the BBC film *Spirit of Place:  Lawrence Durrell's Egypt*?
It's listed as the final event of the conference.  I was unable to find
anything on it by searching the web.


On Nov 12, 2007 3:57 PM, Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com> wrote:

> I am not aware that they are.  No announcement that I have noticed, and
> anyway they should have done so early in the year.
>
> :Michael
>
>
> On Monday, November 12, 2007, at 08:49  pm, slighcl wrote:
>
> > A general query, for Michael or anyone else: Will Faber publish a
> > special edition of Justine to mark the fiftieth anniversary? I think
> > that I recall hearing the rumor that this would occur, but I have not
> > seen any stirrings.
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 19:43:49 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:43:49 -0800
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Alexandria
In-Reply-To: <8fe1f68d0711121928y6f70d889y8db5dd3127c19850@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4738BC49.1080301@wfu.edu>	<D927DEF4-9161-11DC-8E90-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<8fe1f68d0711121928y6f70d889y8db5dd3127c19850@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47391D75.4020801@gmail.com>

Hello Lou,

> Has anyone seen the BBC film /Spirit of Place: 
 > Lawrence Durrell's Egypt/?  It's listed as the
 > final event of the conference.  I was unable
> to find anything on it by searching the web.

I've seen it before, and it once made the rounds on television.  I can't 
report that it's a great film, but is certainly interesting -- it has a 
peculiar mixture of Orientalist spectacle and ironic joking after those 
who enjoy such things so much...  Durrell's typically elusive in the 
interviews, but the interviewer is quite sincere.  Portions were 
published in transcription, and Durrell started to write up a brief 
travel narrative of the event largely focused on his encounter with the 
changed city and sitting at Cavafy's desk.

Oh, and yes, the event itself looks excellent!  I hope Michael is 
willing to report on how it goes.  If I could make it overseas, I would 
certainly attend.

My best,
James

From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Mon Nov 12 20:16:18 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 04:16:18 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Durrell and bright lights
Message-ID: <2EA55156-919F-11DC-8E90-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

For the sake of substance, the showing of Spirit of Place: Egypt will 
be preceded by the 1960 BBC Monitor programme interview of Durrell by 
Huw Wheldon.  In 1960 Durrell had not yet fully become a souffle.

:Michael 
  


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 12 21:04:36 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:04:36 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Platonism and beyond
Message-ID: <15819634.1194930277135.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

As far as the little I know, the problem of the origin of universals remains a philosophical problem as yet unsolved.  Many seem to prefer Wittgenstein's approach on how concepts are formed, namely, through some incremental process based on experience, as opposed to having them exist a priori in the brain.  I haven't read Holland, but it sounds like he's borrowing his ideas from Chomsky and his innateness model regarding human language -- that's the "hardwired" theory.  I suspect Plato did get many of his ideas from the East, probably Persia or India, those hotbeds of mystical thought.  I like the story of JC not dying on the cross, but rather escaping to India where he became a holy man.


Bruce


-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2007 7:33 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: thus I refute Bishop Berkeley
>
>I of course was thinking of Bishop Berkeley. But I think Socrates wascorrect about concepts, but I think he may be wrong about the origin ofthese concepts. Do you know Norman Holland's The I? He sees theconcepts as hardwired into the brain, not as mystical entities. 
>
>I have dabbled in Renaissance Platonism and with eastern mysticism. Wouldyou consider that Plato may have been influenced by eastern religions andthought? The parable of the cave is a case of a mystical journey to god-- as the light. Compare Henry More, the Cambridge Platonist.
>
>
>At 09:44 PM 11/12/2007, you wrote:
>I'm thinking more in terms ofPlato's argument for universals, i.e., concepts, as seen in the Phaedo,where Socrates uses the Recollection Proof to show concepts existindependently of this world we live in.  You seem to be saying that,but then, maybe not.
>
>
>BR
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>>Sent: Nov 12, 2007 6:19 PM
>>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>,ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Subjectivity
>>
>>It's just that I can't prove that you exist. O, I suppose that is
>>Platonic. He was the first philosopher I read.
>>
>>WW



From hungerist at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 12 20:45:30 2007
From: hungerist at hotmail.com (Alejandro Adams)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:45:30 -0800
Subject: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
References: <mailman.1.1194897603.2674854.ilds@lists.uvic.ca>
Message-ID: <BAY123-DAV13EE744A5E11239E1F5064A2800@phx.gbl>

Lois, I have been reflexively deleting the ILDS emails for a while now. 
Thanks for tossing some raw meat to the sharks.

I am a white colonialist lay reader in possession of a penis which I insert 
into my wife's inert, unwilling body for recreation and in order to 
reproduce.  I hope this language is suitably clinical and the description 
sufficient to define me in terms which seem valuable to you as a meticulous 
cataloguer of cultural paradigms and prejudices.  I am relieved to see that 
you have disabused yourself of cultural paradigms and prejudices--but if you 
do have any, I suspect you're willing to admit that they are unwarranted, 
ill-advised, comical, and probably cause cancer; and that they are 
hopelessly inferior to the cultural paradigms of the Middle East and Far 
East, regions which exist because I have coined convenient catch-all terms 
for them.  Now I realize that these dubious groupings ("middle," "far," 
"east") are psychologically destructive manifestations of my unconscionably 
brutal and indefatigable ethnocentrism.  But the fact is that the Middle 
East and Far East are distinguishable as such because they are, as a matter 
of fact, east of me, as a resident of California, USA.  But...I'm 
confused...Delta Airlines flies me from San Francisco to Tokyo on a 
westbound flight...so...good God...can it be that the continent of Asia is 
actually west of me?  I mean, who decided that any distinction should be 
made between east and west as directions, let alone as cultural loci?  How 
do such distinctions benefit me?  Unfortunately, as soon as I have an 
opportunity to choose between two things, as a cultural position, I will 
find a way to vilify one of those things as I glorify the other.  I propose 
that in order to reduce instances of perceived cultural supremacy (or even 
personal subjectivity) we should do away with the terms "east" and "west." 
There is no need to travel to, discuss, or even identify any place that 
would require one to describe it in such relative, reductive, even insulting 
terms as "east" or "west" or "left" or "right" or "up" or "down."  These 
terms, while helpful in the short term, contain the germs of 
misunderstanding, contentiousness, and ultimately war.

I reject your rejection of Durrell.  Your position is totally nonsensical 
and shows the depth of feeling of a culture-cataloguing robot.  I cannot 
imagine that you have ever grappled deeply with a work of art or literature 
because the formidable apparatus with which you so thoroughly chew a thing 
prevents you from swallowing, nevermind digesting.  Even your admissions of 
guilt at reading Durrell reveal the insurmountably superficial 
how-should-I-feel-about-this permission-seeking reflex which is the mark of 
those who have acquired all the necessary qualifications to be "good 
readers."  Actual READING is incidental, provided you have the 
qualifications to circumvent the jejune habit.  Those who are qualified 
"understand" a work, those who are well-prepared in advance for the subject 
matter and who are able to regard with critical and ironic distance the 
historical moment of the composition and subsequent publication of the work 
are the ones whom the author feared and defied as he wrote.  I only hope 
that the historical moment soon arrives at which the uninvested, 
self-satisfied, verbally specious posturing of the "qualified" is so 
blithely and blindly ridiculed.  In the end, I can assure you only of this: 
reading cannot be taught; what you have been taught is how NOT to read.

I'm sorry but your polemical lunges leave little room for civility.

You, Lois, cannot possibly comprehend the world without a contextualizing, 
interpretive center.  There is no way to engage or discuss the world without 
subjectivity.  To seek to eradicate subjectivity in one's experience of the 
world is an academic disease--as if we can erect a scaffolding of 
objectivity around ourselves by exposing and debasing the subjectivity of 
others.  This is a fatuous, wasteful, and obvious exercise.  See Allan 
Bloom's dated diatribe The Closing of the American Mind for a more thorough 
common sense analysis of this problem.

I could have settled for writing only this in response: I gleefully accept 
and condone every characteristic element that you propose is "wrong" with 
Durrell precisely because if we removed what was wrong with him, what would 
be left?

Alejandro Adams


From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 22:27:07 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:27:07 -0800
Subject: [ilds] debate on the listserv
In-Reply-To: <2EA55156-919F-11DC-8E90-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <2EA55156-919F-11DC-8E90-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <473943BB.9010508@gmail.com>

Hello all,

We've clearly struck a nerve here, and while I would ask everyone to 
keep a cordial tone in exchanges on the list, perhaps the nature of 
these disagreements is worth exploring, albeit in a way that is 
respectful of everyone involved.

Vitriolic disagreement matched with respect for another's position 
strikes me as an excellent basis for some very fine discussion -- and we 
are, after all, a "discussion" list...

I invite Alejandro to comment on why he is so forcefully struck by Lois' 
comments on Durrell's works; what is it in his reading experience that 
leads him to such a spirited response -- likewise, I invite Lois to 
comment on why she finds these works worth such a clearly sincere 
critique.  In all seriousness, we all (generally) know that horrific 
cultural stereotypes are perpetuated and justified in works of mediocre 
fiction (I even spent 2 years looking at Romance Fiction in a reading 
group in order to discuss such questions -- Harlequin is, after all, the 
largest publishing company in the world), but we (I realize the elitism 
of that "we") usually only care enough to debate works that somehow 
entice us to wish they did something more.  In other words, what drives 
us to defend or criticize a work of literature (over another) when we 
could be doing something else more immediately rewarding?  Personally, I 
could be asleep with a dog under each arm right now, and I will be soon...

Much of that wish to defend or critique a work must reflect on us as 
readers, with unique wants and desires, and that wish in turn informs 
our interpretive agency and decisions.  If we respect each other as 
readers of a range of aesthetic works, all of us having sincere and 
genuine responses, I think we can make our disagreements very productive.

My best,
James

ps: I am struck by the appropriateness of Durrell as a subject of such a 
debate, considering his open acceptance of a range of interpretive 
responses to texts he clearly held near and dear (see his "Introduction" 
to his edition of Wordsworth, etc...).  My personal instinct has been to 
read the ambiguity of Durrell's texts as an invitation to such 
wide-ranging interpretive activities.  I am open to being corrected...

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 13 06:25:32 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 06:25:32 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] debate on the listserv
Message-ID: <23024537.1194963933198.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

What is the "Introduction" noted below?  Marginalia Durrell wrote on his copy of Wordsworth's poetry?  Has this been published?


BR


-----Original Message-----
>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2007 10:27 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] debate on the listserv

>ps: I am struck by the appropriateness of Durrell as a subject of such a 
>debate, considering his open acceptance of a range of interpretive 
>responses to texts he clearly held near and dear (see his "Introduction" 
>to his edition of Wordsworth, etc...).  My personal instinct has been to 
>read the ambiguity of Durrell's texts as an invitation to such 
>wide-ranging interpretive activities.  I am open to being corrected...



From richardpin at eircom.net  Tue Nov 13 07:19:30 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:19:30 -0000
Subject: [ilds] debate on the listserv
References: <23024537.1194963933198.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <010101c82608$9aa55720$ab561359@rpinelaptop>

If Bruce had read a few books on the subject he would not have to ask all 
these questions. Not only is it clear (or should be) from Jamie's note that 
LD edited and introduced a selection of Wordsworth (for Penguin), but also 
I'm sure all would like to know that the Intro will be included in a 
selection of LD ephemera to be published (with notes by Jamie and myself) by 
Delos Press in the very near future.
RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] debate on the listserv


> What is the "Introduction" noted below?  Marginalia Durrell wrote on his 
> copy of Wordsworth's poetry?  Has this been published?
>
>
> BR
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>>Sent: Nov 12, 2007 10:27 PM
>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] debate on the listserv
>
>>ps: I am struck by the appropriateness of Durrell as a subject of such a
>>debate, considering his open acceptance of a range of interpretive
>>responses to texts he clearly held near and dear (see his "Introduction"
>>to his edition of Wordsworth, etc...).  My personal instinct has been to
>>read the ambiguity of Durrell's texts as an invitation to such
>>wide-ranging interpretive activities.  I am open to being corrected...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Tue Nov 13 08:02:57 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:02:57 -0500
Subject: [ilds] ld on ww
In-Reply-To: <23024537.1194963933198.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <23024537.1194963933198.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4739CAB1.9060506@wfu.edu>

Here is the citation, Bruce.  It comes courtesy of the inimitable James 
and his online checklist:

>         ________. "Introduction." /Wordsworth; Selected by Lawrence
>         Durrell/ William Wordsworth, 9-21.
>         Harmondsworth: Penguin Books, 1973.
>         Abstract: Durrell gives and overview of Wordsworth's works and
>         life, as well as an outline of his
>         own existential and psychoanalytic reading of Wordsworth's poetry.

http://www.durrell-school-corfu.org/bibliog/

C&c.

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 08:15:10 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:15:10 -0800
Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Wordsworth
In-Reply-To: <23024537.1194963933198.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <23024537.1194963933198.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4739CD8E.2010406@gmail.com>

 > What is the "Introduction" noted below?  Marginalia
 > Durrell wrote on his copy of Wordsworth's poetry?
 > Has this been published?

Here's the citation -- it's in my online bibliography as well.

Wordsworth, William. _Wordsworth; Selected by Lawrence Durrell_. Ed. 
Lawrence Durrell. Hamondsworth: Penguin Books, 1973.

ISBN: 014042167X

It's a part of the "Poet to Poet" series by Penguin, and it's not a bad 
introduction (pp. 9-21), nor is it brief.  At the least, it shows that 
Durrell had quite thoroughly engaged with the Romantics.  I've been 
going through LD's various editing projects lately as well, reviewing 
them afresh, including his edition of P.E.N.

I don't have my list of LD's library handy, but perhaps Bill or Charles 
could comment on whether or not he gave some poetry books to Carbondale. 
  I think the proofs for the Wordsworth book are in Nanterre.  My memory 
is hazy on it, and it might have been the first printing inscribed to 
Sappho.

Best,
James

Bruce Redwine wrote:
> What is the "Introduction" noted below?  Marginalia Durrell wrote on his copy of Wordsworth's poetry?  Has this been published?
> 
> 
> BR
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Nov 12, 2007 10:27 PM
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] debate on the listserv
> 
>> ps: I am struck by the appropriateness of Durrell as a subject of such a 
>> debate, considering his open acceptance of a range of interpretive 
>> responses to texts he clearly held near and dear (see his "Introduction" 
>> to his edition of Wordsworth, etc...).  My personal instinct has been to 
>> read the ambiguity of Durrell's texts as an invitation to such 
>> wide-ranging interpretive activities.  I am open to being corrected...
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 13 09:23:14 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:23:14 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Mindscapes
Message-ID: <28246786.1194974594654.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

RP is at it again.  I'm glad to see, however, that he's chastened enough not to cite his own work(s).  Now, I wonder, how many will bother to read the Mindscape after having been exposed to his?


BR


-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>Sent: Nov 13, 2007 7:19 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] debate on the listserv
>
>If Bruce had read a few books on the subject he would not have to ask all 
>these questions. Not only is it clear (or should be) from Jamie's note that 
>LD edited and introduced a selection of Wordsworth (for Penguin), but also 
>I'm sure all would like to know that the Intro will be included in a 
>selection of LD ephemera to be published (with notes by Jamie and myself) by 
>Delos Press in the very near future.
>RP
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:25 PM
>Subject: Re: [ilds] debate on the listserv
>
>
>> What is the "Introduction" noted below?  Marginalia Durrell wrote on his 
>> copy of Wordsworth's poetry?  Has this been published?
>>
>>
>> BR
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>>>Sent: Nov 12, 2007 10:27 PM
>>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>Subject: Re: [ilds] debate on the listserv
>>
>>>ps: I am struck by the appropriateness of Durrell as a subject of such a
>>>debate, considering his open acceptance of a range of interpretive
>>>responses to texts he clearly held near and dear (see his "Introduction"
>>>to his edition of Wordsworth, etc...).  My personal instinct has been to
>>>read the ambiguity of Durrell's texts as an invitation to such
>>>wide-ranging interpretive activities.  I am open to being corrected...



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 13 09:25:33 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:25:33 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Wordsworth
Message-ID: <32519066.1194974733659.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Thanks, James.


BR

-----Original Message-----
>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>Sent: Nov 13, 2007 8:15 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Wordsworth
>
> > What is the "Introduction" noted below?  Marginalia
> > Durrell wrote on his copy of Wordsworth's poetry?
> > Has this been published?
>
>Here's the citation -- it's in my online bibliography as well.
>
>Wordsworth, William. _Wordsworth; Selected by Lawrence Durrell_. Ed. 
>Lawrence Durrell. Hamondsworth: Penguin Books, 1973.
>
>ISBN: 014042167X
>
>It's a part of the "Poet to Poet" series by Penguin, and it's not a bad 
>introduction (pp. 9-21), nor is it brief.  At the least, it shows that 
>Durrell had quite thoroughly engaged with the Romantics.  I've been 
>going through LD's various editing projects lately as well, reviewing 
>them afresh, including his edition of P.E.N.
>
>I don't have my list of LD's library handy, but perhaps Bill or Charles 
>could comment on whether or not he gave some poetry books to Carbondale. 
>  I think the proofs for the Wordsworth book are in Nanterre.  My memory 
>is hazy on it, and it might have been the first printing inscribed to 
>Sappho.
>
>Best,
>James
>
>Bruce Redwine wrote:
>> What is the "Introduction" noted below?  Marginalia Durrell wrote on his copy of Wordsworth's poetry?  Has this been published?
>> 
>> 
>> BR


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 13 10:04:15 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:04:15 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
Message-ID: <14056022.1194977055364.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I agree with little of Ms. Rees's concerns and arguments, but the issue of anti-feminism and misogyny in Durrell warrants consideration.  I offer the depiction of Nancy in Prospero's Cell.  There, young Durrell's first wife, his helpmeet, the woman who provides a child and financial support -- that beautiful woman is little more than a stage prop for a young artist's coming of age on a Greek island.  She's little more than a trained seal or retriever who fetches cherries from the bottom of that famous pool.  Are women in Durrell work's really whole persons?  Or are they about as fanciful as Hemingway's whores and saints?


BR


-----Original Message-----
>From: Alejandro Adams <hungerist at hotmail.com>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2007 8:45 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
>
>Lois, I have been reflexively deleting the ILDS emails for a while now. 
>Thanks for tossing some raw meat to the sharks.
>
>I am a white colonialist lay reader in possession of a penis which I insert 
>into my wife's inert, unwilling body for recreation and in order to 
>reproduce.  I hope this language is suitably clinical and the description 
>sufficient to define me in terms which seem valuable to you as a meticulous 
>cataloguer of cultural paradigms and prejudices.  I am relieved to see that 
>you have disabused yourself of cultural paradigms and prejudices--but if you 
>do have any, I suspect you're willing to admit that they are unwarranted, 
>ill-advised, comical, and probably cause cancer; and that they are 
>hopelessly inferior to the cultural paradigms of the Middle East and Far 
>East, regions which exist because I have coined convenient catch-all terms 
>for them.  Now I realize that these dubious groupings ("middle," "far," 
>"east") are psychologically destructive manifestations of my unconscionably 
>brutal and indefatigable ethnocentrism.  But the fact is that the Middle 
>East and Far East are distinguishable as such because they are, as a matter 
>of fact, east of me, as a resident of California, USA.  But...I'm 
>confused...Delta Airlines flies me from San Francisco to Tokyo on a 
>westbound flight...so...good God...can it be that the continent of Asia is 
>actually west of me?  I mean, who decided that any distinction should be 
>made between east and west as directions, let alone as cultural loci?  How 
>do such distinctions benefit me?  Unfortunately, as soon as I have an 
>opportunity to choose between two things, as a cultural position, I will 
>find a way to vilify one of those things as I glorify the other.  I propose 
>that in order to reduce instances of perceived cultural supremacy (or even 
>personal subjectivity) we should do away with the terms "east" and "west." 
>There is no need to travel to, discuss, or even identify any place that 
>would require one to describe it in such relative, reductive, even insulting 
>terms as "east" or "west" or "left" or "right" or "up" or "down."  These 
>terms, while helpful in the short term, contain the germs of 
>misunderstanding, contentiousness, and ultimately war.
>
>I reject your rejection of Durrell.  Your position is totally nonsensical 
>and shows the depth of feeling of a culture-cataloguing robot.  I cannot 
>imagine that you have ever grappled deeply with a work of art or literature 
>because the formidable apparatus with which you so thoroughly chew a thing 
>prevents you from swallowing, nevermind digesting.  Even your admissions of 
>guilt at reading Durrell reveal the insurmountably superficial 
>how-should-I-feel-about-this permission-seeking reflex which is the mark of 
>those who have acquired all the necessary qualifications to be "good 
>readers."  Actual READING is incidental, provided you have the 
>qualifications to circumvent the jejune habit.  Those who are qualified 
>"understand" a work, those who are well-prepared in advance for the subject 
>matter and who are able to regard with critical and ironic distance the 
>historical moment of the composition and subsequent publication of the work 
>are the ones whom the author feared and defied as he wrote.  I only hope 
>that the historical moment soon arrives at which the uninvested, 
>self-satisfied, verbally specious posturing of the "qualified" is so 
>blithely and blindly ridiculed.  In the end, I can assure you only of this: 
>reading cannot be taught; what you have been taught is how NOT to read.
>
>I'm sorry but your polemical lunges leave little room for civility.
>
>You, Lois, cannot possibly comprehend the world without a contextualizing, 
>interpretive center.  There is no way to engage or discuss the world without 
>subjectivity.  To seek to eradicate subjectivity in one's experience of the 
>world is an academic disease--as if we can erect a scaffolding of 
>objectivity around ourselves by exposing and debasing the subjectivity of 
>others.  This is a fatuous, wasteful, and obvious exercise.  See Allan 
>Bloom's dated diatribe The Closing of the American Mind for a more thorough 
>common sense analysis of this problem.
>
>I could have settled for writing only this in response: I gleefully accept 
>and condone every characteristic element that you propose is "wrong" with 
>Durrell precisely because if we removed what was wrong with him, what would 
>be left?
>
>Alejandro Adams


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Tue Nov 13 11:45:02 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:45:02 -0500
Subject: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
In-Reply-To: <14056022.1194977055364.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.
	sa.earthlink.net>
References: <14056022.1194977055364.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <7C.1B.20239.2AEF9374@gwout2>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20071113/69f45593/attachment.html 

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 13 12:06:54 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:06:54 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
Message-ID: <15977470.1194984415315.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Can we weep?  Yes.  Is this a travel fantasy?  Yes, but the reader doesn't know that -- Durrell presents it as fact.  So, Prospero can be taken as fact, the author's reworking of facts, the case that can be made against him.  I emphasize "depiction," what Durrell chooses to include and exclude from his story, and all stories have some factual basis.  And what Durrell excludes is the important role of a formidable woman, beautiful and creative in her own right, ultimately reduced to the letter "N" in his narrative, as Eve becomes an "E" in Reflections.  I detect misogyny at work here, and I'm no feminist.


BR


-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Nov 13, 2007 11:45 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
>
>Bruce suggests that "theissue of anti-feminism and misogyny in Durrell warrantsconsideration."
>He then offers "the depiction of Nancy in Prospero's Cell. There, young Durrell's first wife, his helpmeet, the woman who provides achild and financial support -- that beautiful woman is little more than astage prop for a young artist's coming of age on a Greek island. She's little more than a trained seal or retriever who fetches cherriesfrom the bottom of that famous pool."
>
>We will never fully know why Durrell made the decision tovirtually exclude Nancy from Prospero's Cell, but her relativeabsence may immediately tell us that this book is not to be taken asfactual. Can we weep for a real woman who does not appear in a travelfantasy? 
>
>Bill 
>
>***************************************
>W. L.Godshalk          *
>Department ofEnglish         *
>University ofCincinnati           Stellar disorder  *
>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>513-281-5927
>***************************************


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 13 12:14:04 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:14:04 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
Message-ID: <8964451.1194984845052.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Thanks, David.  More ammo.  I don't think, however, that Nancy was a "blond bimbo."  She strikes me as intelligent, creative, and strong willed.  Which may not have been the way LD liked his women.


Bruce


-----Original Message-----
>From: Denise Tart & David Green <dtart at bigpond.net.au>
>Sent: Nov 13, 2007 11:53 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
>
>Bruce, I am pleased you picked up on Nancy and your trained seal image is 
>rather apt.
>Although there are some, I find, appealing descriptions of Nancy her mind 
>does not feature at all. The main characters of the Prospero's Cell are men: 
>the Count D, Theodore, Zarian and of course LD himself. There is a point 
>where the Count apologises to the group for not inviting their wives along. 
>he says something like "they introduce an atmosphere of civility and 
>favouritism and lack the magnamnity of the male mind". perhaps LD thought 
>this too?
>Perhaps Nancy was a blond bimbo!
>
>later in life Durrell said to Miller "women are merely a tiresome 
>interruption:they are convinced they are personalities whereas they are 
>simply the collective illustration of a biological need or universal 
>principle. Best enjoyed when least thought about, I say."
>
>His brother Gerry maintained that LD was hard on his women.
>
>DG
>
>Denise Tart & David Green
>16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204
>
>+61 2 9564 6165
>0412 707 625
>dtart at bigpond.net.au
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 5:04 AM
>Subject: Re: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
>
>
>>I agree with little of Ms. Rees's concerns and arguments, but the issue of 
>>anti-feminism and misogyny in Durrell warrants consideration.  I offer the 
>>depiction of Nancy in Prospero's Cell.  There, young Durrell's first wife, 
>>his helpmeet, the woman who provides a child and financial support -- that 
>>beautiful woman is little more than a stage prop for a young artist's 
>>coming of age on a Greek island.  She's little more than a trained seal or 
>>retriever who fetches cherries from the bottom of that famous pool.  Are 
>>women in Durrell work's really whole persons?  Or are they about as 
>>fanciful as Hemingway's whores and saints?
>>
>>
>> BR
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Alejandro Adams <hungerist at hotmail.com>
>>>Sent: Nov 12, 2007 8:45 PM
>>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>Subject: Re: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
>>>
>>>Lois, I have been reflexively deleting the ILDS emails for a while now.
>>>Thanks for tossing some raw meat to the sharks.
>>>
>>>I am a white colonialist lay reader in possession of a penis which I 
>>>insert
>>>into my wife's inert, unwilling body for recreation and in order to
>>>reproduce.  I hope this language is suitably clinical and the description
>>>sufficient to define me in terms which seem valuable to you as a 
>>>meticulous
>>>cataloguer of cultural paradigms and prejudices.  I am relieved to see 
>>>that
>>>you have disabused yourself of cultural paradigms and prejudices--but if 
>>>you
>>>do have any, I suspect you're willing to admit that they are unwarranted,
>>>ill-advised, comical, and probably cause cancer; and that they are
>>>hopelessly inferior to the cultural paradigms of the Middle East and Far
>>>East, regions which exist because I have coined convenient catch-all terms
>>>for them.  Now I realize that these dubious groupings ("middle," "far,"
>>>"east") are psychologically destructive manifestations of my 
>>>unconscionably
>>>brutal and indefatigable ethnocentrism.  But the fact is that the Middle
>>>East and Far East are distinguishable as such because they are, as a 
>>>matter
>>>of fact, east of me, as a resident of California, USA.  But...I'm
>>>confused...Delta Airlines flies me from San Francisco to Tokyo on a
>>>westbound flight...so...good God...can it be that the continent of Asia is
>>>actually west of me?  I mean, who decided that any distinction should be
>>>made between east and west as directions, let alone as cultural loci?  How
>>>do such distinctions benefit me?  Unfortunately, as soon as I have an
>>>opportunity to choose between two things, as a cultural position, I will
>>>find a way to vilify one of those things as I glorify the other.  I 
>>>propose
>>>that in order to reduce instances of perceived cultural supremacy (or even
>>>personal subjectivity) we should do away with the terms "east" and "west."
>>>There is no need to travel to, discuss, or even identify any place that
>>>would require one to describe it in such relative, reductive, even 
>>>insulting
>>>terms as "east" or "west" or "left" or "right" or "up" or "down."  These
>>>terms, while helpful in the short term, contain the germs of
>>>misunderstanding, contentiousness, and ultimately war.
>>>
>>>I reject your rejection of Durrell.  Your position is totally nonsensical
>>>and shows the depth of feeling of a culture-cataloguing robot.  I cannot
>>>imagine that you have ever grappled deeply with a work of art or 
>>>literature
>>>because the formidable apparatus with which you so thoroughly chew a thing
>>>prevents you from swallowing, nevermind digesting.  Even your admissions 
>>>of
>>>guilt at reading Durrell reveal the insurmountably superficial
>>>how-should-I-feel-about-this permission-seeking reflex which is the mark 
>>>of
>>>those who have acquired all the necessary qualifications to be "good
>>>readers."  Actual READING is incidental, provided you have the
>>>qualifications to circumvent the jejune habit.  Those who are qualified
>>>"understand" a work, those who are well-prepared in advance for the 
>>>subject
>>>matter and who are able to regard with critical and ironic distance the
>>>historical moment of the composition and subsequent publication of the 
>>>work
>>>are the ones whom the author feared and defied as he wrote.  I only hope
>>>that the historical moment soon arrives at which the uninvested,
>>>self-satisfied, verbally specious posturing of the "qualified" is so
>>>blithely and blindly ridiculed.  In the end, I can assure you only of 
>>>this:
>>>reading cannot be taught; what you have been taught is how NOT to read.
>>>
>>>I'm sorry but your polemical lunges leave little room for civility.
>>>
>>>You, Lois, cannot possibly comprehend the world without a contextualizing,
>>>interpretive center.  There is no way to engage or discuss the world 
>>>without
>>>subjectivity.  To seek to eradicate subjectivity in one's experience of 
>>>the
>>>world is an academic disease--as if we can erect a scaffolding of
>>>objectivity around ourselves by exposing and debasing the subjectivity of
>>>others.  This is a fatuous, wasteful, and obvious exercise.  See Allan
>>>Bloom's dated diatribe The Closing of the American Mind for a more 
>>>thorough
>>>common sense analysis of this problem.
>>>
>>>I could have settled for writing only this in response: I gleefully accept
>>>and condone every characteristic element that you propose is "wrong" with
>>>Durrell precisely because if we removed what was wrong with him, what 
>>>would
>>>be left?
>>>
>>>Alejandro Adams
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds 
>
>


From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Tue Nov 13 11:53:24 2007
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 06:53:24 +1100
Subject: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
References: <14056022.1194977055364.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <003701c8262e$da25a370$0201a8c0@MumandDad>

Bruce, I am pleased you picked up on Nancy and your trained seal image is 
rather apt.
Although there are some, I find, appealing descriptions of Nancy her mind 
does not feature at all. The main characters of the Prospero's Cell are men: 
the Count D, Theodore, Zarian and of course LD himself. There is a point 
where the Count apologises to the group for not inviting their wives along. 
he says something like "they introduce an atmosphere of civility and 
favouritism and lack the magnamnity of the male mind". perhaps LD thought 
this too?
Perhaps Nancy was a blond bimbo!

later in life Durrell said to Miller "women are merely a tiresome 
interruption:they are convinced they are personalities whereas they are 
simply the collective illustration of a biological need or universal 
principle. Best enjoyed when least thought about, I say."

His brother Gerry maintained that LD was hard on his women.

DG

Denise Tart & David Green
16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204

+61 2 9564 6165
0412 707 625
dtart at bigpond.net.au
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 5:04 AM
Subject: Re: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees


>I agree with little of Ms. Rees's concerns and arguments, but the issue of 
>anti-feminism and misogyny in Durrell warrants consideration.  I offer the 
>depiction of Nancy in Prospero's Cell.  There, young Durrell's first wife, 
>his helpmeet, the woman who provides a child and financial support -- that 
>beautiful woman is little more than a stage prop for a young artist's 
>coming of age on a Greek island.  She's little more than a trained seal or 
>retriever who fetches cherries from the bottom of that famous pool.  Are 
>women in Durrell work's really whole persons?  Or are they about as 
>fanciful as Hemingway's whores and saints?
>
>
> BR
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Alejandro Adams <hungerist at hotmail.com>
>>Sent: Nov 12, 2007 8:45 PM
>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
>>
>>Lois, I have been reflexively deleting the ILDS emails for a while now.
>>Thanks for tossing some raw meat to the sharks.
>>
>>I am a white colonialist lay reader in possession of a penis which I 
>>insert
>>into my wife's inert, unwilling body for recreation and in order to
>>reproduce.  I hope this language is suitably clinical and the description
>>sufficient to define me in terms which seem valuable to you as a 
>>meticulous
>>cataloguer of cultural paradigms and prejudices.  I am relieved to see 
>>that
>>you have disabused yourself of cultural paradigms and prejudices--but if 
>>you
>>do have any, I suspect you're willing to admit that they are unwarranted,
>>ill-advised, comical, and probably cause cancer; and that they are
>>hopelessly inferior to the cultural paradigms of the Middle East and Far
>>East, regions which exist because I have coined convenient catch-all terms
>>for them.  Now I realize that these dubious groupings ("middle," "far,"
>>"east") are psychologically destructive manifestations of my 
>>unconscionably
>>brutal and indefatigable ethnocentrism.  But the fact is that the Middle
>>East and Far East are distinguishable as such because they are, as a 
>>matter
>>of fact, east of me, as a resident of California, USA.  But...I'm
>>confused...Delta Airlines flies me from San Francisco to Tokyo on a
>>westbound flight...so...good God...can it be that the continent of Asia is
>>actually west of me?  I mean, who decided that any distinction should be
>>made between east and west as directions, let alone as cultural loci?  How
>>do such distinctions benefit me?  Unfortunately, as soon as I have an
>>opportunity to choose between two things, as a cultural position, I will
>>find a way to vilify one of those things as I glorify the other.  I 
>>propose
>>that in order to reduce instances of perceived cultural supremacy (or even
>>personal subjectivity) we should do away with the terms "east" and "west."
>>There is no need to travel to, discuss, or even identify any place that
>>would require one to describe it in such relative, reductive, even 
>>insulting
>>terms as "east" or "west" or "left" or "right" or "up" or "down."  These
>>terms, while helpful in the short term, contain the germs of
>>misunderstanding, contentiousness, and ultimately war.
>>
>>I reject your rejection of Durrell.  Your position is totally nonsensical
>>and shows the depth of feeling of a culture-cataloguing robot.  I cannot
>>imagine that you have ever grappled deeply with a work of art or 
>>literature
>>because the formidable apparatus with which you so thoroughly chew a thing
>>prevents you from swallowing, nevermind digesting.  Even your admissions 
>>of
>>guilt at reading Durrell reveal the insurmountably superficial
>>how-should-I-feel-about-this permission-seeking reflex which is the mark 
>>of
>>those who have acquired all the necessary qualifications to be "good
>>readers."  Actual READING is incidental, provided you have the
>>qualifications to circumvent the jejune habit.  Those who are qualified
>>"understand" a work, those who are well-prepared in advance for the 
>>subject
>>matter and who are able to regard with critical and ironic distance the
>>historical moment of the composition and subsequent publication of the 
>>work
>>are the ones whom the author feared and defied as he wrote.  I only hope
>>that the historical moment soon arrives at which the uninvested,
>>self-satisfied, verbally specious posturing of the "qualified" is so
>>blithely and blindly ridiculed.  In the end, I can assure you only of 
>>this:
>>reading cannot be taught; what you have been taught is how NOT to read.
>>
>>I'm sorry but your polemical lunges leave little room for civility.
>>
>>You, Lois, cannot possibly comprehend the world without a contextualizing,
>>interpretive center.  There is no way to engage or discuss the world 
>>without
>>subjectivity.  To seek to eradicate subjectivity in one's experience of 
>>the
>>world is an academic disease--as if we can erect a scaffolding of
>>objectivity around ourselves by exposing and debasing the subjectivity of
>>others.  This is a fatuous, wasteful, and obvious exercise.  See Allan
>>Bloom's dated diatribe The Closing of the American Mind for a more 
>>thorough
>>common sense analysis of this problem.
>>
>>I could have settled for writing only this in response: I gleefully accept
>>and condone every characteristic element that you propose is "wrong" with
>>Durrell precisely because if we removed what was wrong with him, what 
>>would
>>be left?
>>
>>Alejandro Adams
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds 



From albigensian at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 13 12:15:28 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:15:28 -0600
Subject: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
In-Reply-To: <14056022.1194977055364.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BLU102-F21567CF23C144001BE2FF2B0800@phx.gbl>

I have not been keeping up with the list but I see that it has once again 
split along lines that I'm not even going to name, in an effort to keep the 
invective to a manageable level. But Bruce has brought out a point that I 
don't think anyone who has read Durrell can disagree with--women, esp. the 
"real" ones who, somehow or another put up with him, fare badly in his work. 
Certainly there is the issue of Justine and her "real" counterpart, Eve 
Cohen. Anna Lillios has done some very probing and insightful work on LD's 
"use" of her for his fictional character, as well as his very real abuse of 
her. I'm personally hoping that Anna will publish this work soon, as it 
sheds a great deal of light on the real women in his life (and their REAL 
lives, as opposed to how he presented them) as well as the demons that led 
him to treat them so badly. Yes, I do think they are "fanciful" and put to 
use as he saw fit (he was definitely a user in that respect!) I have no 
doubt that LD was a misogynist, but like Eliot's anti-semitism, it doesn't 
prevent me from appreciating his work--even when it is misogynist to the 
extreme.

>From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
>Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:04:15 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
>
>I agree with little of Ms. Rees's concerns and arguments, but the issue of 
>anti-feminism and misogyny in Durrell warrants consideration.  I offer the 
>depiction of Nancy in Prospero's Cell.  There, young Durrell's first wife, 
>his helpmeet, the woman who provides a child and financial support -- that 
>beautiful woman is little more than a stage prop for a young artist's 
>coming of age on a Greek island.  She's little more than a trained seal or 
>retriever who fetches cherries from the bottom of that famous pool.  Are 
>women in Durrell work's really whole persons?  Or are they about as 
>fanciful as Hemingway's whores and saints?
>
>
>BR
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
> >From: Alejandro Adams <hungerist at hotmail.com>
> >Sent: Nov 12, 2007 8:45 PM
> >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >Subject: Re: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
> >
> >Lois, I have been reflexively deleting the ILDS emails for a while now.
> >Thanks for tossing some raw meat to the sharks.
> >
> >I am a white colonialist lay reader in possession of a penis which I 
>insert
> >into my wife's inert, unwilling body for recreation and in order to
> >reproduce.  I hope this language is suitably clinical and the description
> >sufficient to define me in terms which seem valuable to you as a 
>meticulous
> >cataloguer of cultural paradigms and prejudices.  I am relieved to see 
>that
> >you have disabused yourself of cultural paradigms and prejudices--but if 
>you
> >do have any, I suspect you're willing to admit that they are unwarranted,
> >ill-advised, comical, and probably cause cancer; and that they are
> >hopelessly inferior to the cultural paradigms of the Middle East and Far
> >East, regions which exist because I have coined convenient catch-all 
>terms
> >for them.  Now I realize that these dubious groupings ("middle," "far,"
> >"east") are psychologically destructive manifestations of my 
>unconscionably
> >brutal and indefatigable ethnocentrism.  But the fact is that the Middle
> >East and Far East are distinguishable as such because they are, as a 
>matter
> >of fact, east of me, as a resident of California, USA.  But...I'm
> >confused...Delta Airlines flies me from San Francisco to Tokyo on a
> >westbound flight...so...good God...can it be that the continent of Asia 
>is
> >actually west of me?  I mean, who decided that any distinction should be
> >made between east and west as directions, let alone as cultural loci?  
>How
> >do such distinctions benefit me?  Unfortunately, as soon as I have an
> >opportunity to choose between two things, as a cultural position, I will
> >find a way to vilify one of those things as I glorify the other.  I 
>propose
> >that in order to reduce instances of perceived cultural supremacy (or 
>even
> >personal subjectivity) we should do away with the terms "east" and 
>"west."
> >There is no need to travel to, discuss, or even identify any place that
> >would require one to describe it in such relative, reductive, even 
>insulting
> >terms as "east" or "west" or "left" or "right" or "up" or "down."  These
> >terms, while helpful in the short term, contain the germs of
> >misunderstanding, contentiousness, and ultimately war.
> >
> >I reject your rejection of Durrell.  Your position is totally nonsensical
> >and shows the depth of feeling of a culture-cataloguing robot.  I cannot
> >imagine that you have ever grappled deeply with a work of art or 
>literature
> >because the formidable apparatus with which you so thoroughly chew a 
>thing
> >prevents you from swallowing, nevermind digesting.  Even your admissions 
>of
> >guilt at reading Durrell reveal the insurmountably superficial
> >how-should-I-feel-about-this permission-seeking reflex which is the mark 
>of
> >those who have acquired all the necessary qualifications to be "good
> >readers."  Actual READING is incidental, provided you have the
> >qualifications to circumvent the jejune habit.  Those who are qualified
> >"understand" a work, those who are well-prepared in advance for the 
>subject
> >matter and who are able to regard with critical and ironic distance the
> >historical moment of the composition and subsequent publication of the 
>work
> >are the ones whom the author feared and defied as he wrote.  I only hope
> >that the historical moment soon arrives at which the uninvested,
> >self-satisfied, verbally specious posturing of the "qualified" is so
> >blithely and blindly ridiculed.  In the end, I can assure you only of 
>this:
> >reading cannot be taught; what you have been taught is how NOT to read.
> >
> >I'm sorry but your polemical lunges leave little room for civility.
> >
> >You, Lois, cannot possibly comprehend the world without a 
>contextualizing,
> >interpretive center.  There is no way to engage or discuss the world 
>without
> >subjectivity.  To seek to eradicate subjectivity in one's experience of 
>the
> >world is an academic disease--as if we can erect a scaffolding of
> >objectivity around ourselves by exposing and debasing the subjectivity of
> >others.  This is a fatuous, wasteful, and obvious exercise.  See Allan
> >Bloom's dated diatribe The Closing of the American Mind for a more 
>thorough
> >common sense analysis of this problem.
> >
> >I could have settled for writing only this in response: I gleefully 
>accept
> >and condone every characteristic element that you propose is "wrong" with
> >Durrell precisely because if we removed what was wrong with him, what 
>would
> >be left?
> >
> >Alejandro Adams
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From albigensian at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 13 12:44:18 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:44:18 -0600
Subject: [ilds] debate on the listserv
In-Reply-To: <010101c82608$9aa55720$ab561359@rpinelaptop>
Message-ID: <BLU102-F41222CB03DAF725DADE65DB0800@phx.gbl>


When? When? When?

Richard Pine says:
also
>I'm sure all would like to know that the Intro will be included in a
>selection of LD ephemera to be published (with notes by Jamie and myself) 
>by
>Delos Press in the very near future.
>RP





>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:25 PM
>Subject: Re: [ilds] debate on the listserv
>
>
> > What is the "Introduction" noted below?  Marginalia Durrell wrote on his
> > copy of Wordsworth's poetry?  Has this been published?
> >
> >
> > BR
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
> >>Sent: Nov 12, 2007 10:27 PM
> >>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >>Subject: Re: [ilds] debate on the listserv
> >
> >>ps: I am struck by the appropriateness of Durrell as a subject of such a
> >>debate, considering his open acceptance of a range of interpretive
> >>responses to texts he clearly held near and dear (see his "Introduction"
> >>to his edition of Wordsworth, etc...).  My personal instinct has been to
> >>read the ambiguity of Durrell's texts as an invitation to such
> >>wide-ranging interpretive activities.  I am open to being corrected...
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ILDS mailing list
> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From albigensian at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 13 12:50:51 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:50:51 -0600
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Alexandria
In-Reply-To: <F94B0756-915E-11DC-8E90-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <BLU102-F2216491C577F7BC101B037B0800@phx.gbl>


Michael--are you going to attend this event? If so, could you please take 
some pictures for the Herald? Any sort of program, schedule of events, etc. 
would be great as well. Please let me know if you are going--thanks! pamela

>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Alexandria
>Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:36:40 +0000
>
>The British Council and the Bibliotheca Alexandrina are presenting an
>event in Alexandria later this month to mark the fiftieth anniversary
>of the publication of Justine.  All welcome.
>
>http://www.britishcouncil.org/egypt-arts-culture-events-durrell.htm
>
>:Michael
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From albigensian at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 13 12:55:56 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:55:56 -0600
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Alexandria
In-Reply-To: <F94B0756-915E-11DC-8E90-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <BLU102-F26C752222BEAC78BAB00A5B0800@phx.gbl>

Oh, well...didn't read the page beforehand...clearly you will be there! 
So...given that I won't be there, and given that this would be a great event 
for Herald coverage, I do hope you'll take a few pics, jot a few notes, etc. 
for me. I can work them up into an article unless you would rather do it--
This sounds like the coolest event! Have fun! And send me a postcard 
(please!) thanks, Pamela Francis, 1136 Berthea #14, Houston, TX USA 77006


>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Alexandria
>Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:36:40 +0000
>
>The British Council and the Bibliotheca Alexandrina are presenting an
>event in Alexandria later this month to mark the fiftieth anniversary
>of the publication of Justine.  All welcome.
>
>http://www.britishcouncil.org/egypt-arts-culture-events-durrell.htm
>
>:Michael
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Tue Nov 13 13:33:28 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:33:28 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Alexandria
In-Reply-To: <BLU102-F2216491C577F7BC101B037B0800@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <12EFEA67-9230-11DC-AF20-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

I am giving two talks at the event.  And by the way, Durrell did not 
abuse Eve, rather the other way round.  But then people who fail to do 
biographical research and prefer to indulge their fantasies will 
publish anything and claim to be scholars.

:Michael


On Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 08:50  pm, Pamela Francis wrote:

>
> Michael--are you going to attend this event? If so, could you please 
> take
> some pictures for the Herald? Any sort of program, schedule of events, 
> etc.
> would be great as well. Please let me know if you are going--thanks! 
> pamela
>
>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>> Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: [ilds] Durrell in Alexandria
>> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:36:40 +0000
>>
>> The British Council and the Bibliotheca Alexandrina are presenting an
>> event in Alexandria later this month to mark the fiftieth anniversary
>> of the publication of Justine.  All welcome.
>>
>> http://www.britishcouncil.org/egypt-arts-culture-events-durrell.htm
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 13 14:26:18 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:26:18 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
Message-ID: <14991485.1194992778816.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Yes.

BR 

-----Original Message-----
>From: Pamela Francis <albigensian at hotmail.com>
>Sent: Nov 13, 2007 12:14 PM
>To: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
>Subject: Re: [ilds] The Position of Ms Lois Rees
>
I have no doubt that LD was a misogynist, but like Eliot's anti-semitism, it doesn't 
>prevent me from appreciating his work--even when it is misogynist to the 
>extreme.



From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Tue Nov 13 22:51:21 2007
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:51:21 +1100
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Women
Message-ID: <008901c8268a$c4a9e4f0$0201a8c0@MumandDad>

Thanks, David.  More ammo.  I don't think, however, that Nancy was a "blond bimbo."  She strikes me as intelligent, creative, and strong willed.  Which may not have been the way LD liked his women.

Bruce and List
It seems to me that Larry, like many artists, had to be centre stage in the great creation of his life and work. Women were either muses or sexual objects sometimes both. Claude Forde, from my readings, seems to have been that one that took Larry for what he was; good and bad things. she could cope with his drinking and creative madnesses and self absorbsion. Nancy, Eve and Ghislaine could not and nor could he endure their intrusion upon the way he was or liked to live. Hater of women? No. Hater of women as equals? yes! Women had a powerful role in Larry's life but as grist to his mill, as pigments for his canvas and certainly as companions at the wine table or in the bedroom but not as brighter suns than him.

David




Denise Tart & David Green
16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204

+61 2 9564 6165
0412 707 625
dtart at bigpond.net.au
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From hellmark17 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 02:07:22 2007
From: hellmark17 at gmail.com (Photo Album)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:07:22 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
Message-ID: <bf4cad210711140207n38606c9ft54346a88de46d7a0@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

I am currently working on a documentary about the cultural relations between
UK and Cyprus, as part of my postgraduate studies at the University of the
West of England, and I want to make extended use of Durrell's "Bitter Lemons
of Cyprus".

Does anybody know any English literature that discusses or evaluates
Durrell's political and cultural positions over Cyprus?

Any comment would be greatly appreciated,

Helena Markou
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From richardpin at eircom.net  Wed Nov 14 05:38:21 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:38:21 -0000
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Women
References: <008901c8268a$c4a9e4f0$0201a8c0@MumandDad>
Message-ID: <012201c826c3$a369fe90$7a95e9d5@rpinelaptop>

To which I would add that I think Larry was AFRAID of women. Maybe this had soemthing to do with the 'trauma of birth'. Being married to a successful writer was perhaps a big element in his respect for Claude,  but (according to MacNiven) it didnt stop his violence towards her. RP
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Denise Tart & David Green 
  To: Durrel 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 6:51 AM
  Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Women


  Thanks, David.  More ammo.  I don't think, however, that Nancy was a "blond bimbo."  She strikes me as intelligent, creative, and strong willed.  Which may not have been the way LD liked his women.

  Bruce and List
  It seems to me that Larry, like many artists, had to be centre stage in the great creation of his life and work. Women were either muses or sexual objects sometimes both. Claude Forde, from my readings, seems to have been that one that took Larry for what he was; good and bad things. she could cope with his drinking and creative madnesses and self absorbsion. Nancy, Eve and Ghislaine could not and nor could he endure their intrusion upon the way he was or liked to live. Hater of women? No. Hater of women as equals? yes! Women had a powerful role in Larry's life but as grist to his mill, as pigments for his canvas and certainly as companions at the wine table or in the bedroom but not as brighter suns than him.

  David




  Denise Tart & David Green
  16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204

  +61 2 9564 6165
  0412 707 625
  dtart at bigpond.net.au


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  ILDS mailing list
  ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
  https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From richardpin at eircom.net  Wed Nov 14 05:45:12 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:45:12 -0000
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
References: <bf4cad210711140207n38606c9ft54346a88de46d7a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013201c826c4$971cc630$7a95e9d5@rpinelaptop>

Roderick Beaton's biography of Seferis discusses their (LD and Seferis) relevant positions and the rift in their friendship. This is also discussed by Maurice Cardiff who was an eye witness. The 2 biographies of LD to date obviously explore his position. David Roessel has written about LD's time in Cyprus in Deus Loci, which also discusses the rebuttal of Bitter Lemons by Rodis Roufos.  My own study 'Lawrence Durrell the Mindscape' explores his ambivalence and quotes from his private notebooks on the subject (sorry Bruce).Good luck with your documentary - could we get a copy of it when it is finished, for the library of the Durrell School?
RP
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Photo Album 
  To: ILDS at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 10:07 AM
  Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons


  Dear all, 

  I am currently working on a documentary about the cultural relations between UK and Cyprus, as part of my postgraduate studies at the University of the West of England, and I want to make extended use of Durrell's "Bitter Lemons of Cyprus". 

  Does anybody know any English literature that discusses or evaluates Durrell's political and cultural positions over Cyprus? 

  Any comment would be greatly appreciated, 

  Helena Markou



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  ILDS mailing list
  ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
  https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
-------------- next part --------------
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From richardpin at eircom.net  Wed Nov 14 05:51:14 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:51:14 -0000
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
References: <bf4cad210711140207n38606c9ft54346a88de46d7a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013c01c826c5$6ebe7ed0$7a95e9d5@rpinelaptop>

PS I should have added a recent history of the diplomatic background to the enotist period by WIlliam Mallinson, altho he manages to not mention LD even once. 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Photo Album 
  To: ILDS at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 10:07 AM
  Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons


  Dear all, 

  I am currently working on a documentary about the cultural relations between UK and Cyprus, as part of my postgraduate studies at the University of the West of England, and I want to make extended use of Durrell's "Bitter Lemons of Cyprus". 

  Does anybody know any English literature that discusses or evaluates Durrell's political and cultural positions over Cyprus? 

  Any comment would be greatly appreciated, 

  Helena Markou



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  ILDS mailing list
  ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
  https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
-------------- next part --------------
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From richardpin at eircom.net  Wed Nov 14 06:02:04 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:02:04 -0000
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
References: <bf4cad210711140207n38606c9ft54346a88de46d7a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014601c826c6$f2de8ab0$7a95e9d5@rpinelaptop>

PPS (sorry for oversight) I should also also have mentioned Costas Montis: Closed Doors, an answer to Lawrence Durrell's Bitter Lemons (2004)
RP
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Photo Album 
  To: ILDS at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 10:07 AM
  Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons


  Dear all, 

  I am currently working on a documentary about the cultural relations between UK and Cyprus, as part of my postgraduate studies at the University of the West of England, and I want to make extended use of Durrell's "Bitter Lemons of Cyprus". 

  Does anybody know any English literature that discusses or evaluates Durrell's political and cultural positions over Cyprus? 

  Any comment would be greatly appreciated, 

  Helena Markou



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  ILDS mailing list
  ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
  https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Wed Nov 14 06:19:28 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:19:28 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Durrell banner in Alexandria
Message-ID: <9C3FF6CA-92BC-11DC-81A7-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

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From richardpin at eircom.net  Wed Nov 14 06:25:47 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:25:47 -0000
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Women
References: <008901c8268a$c4a9e4f0$0201a8c0@MumandDad>
Message-ID: <017501c826ca$44903590$7a95e9d5@rpinelaptop>

Some of you might feel that you had something to contribute to the Durrell School's upcoming seminar on 'An Investigation of Modern love' (moderators Shere hite and Joseph Boone) 18-23 May - particularly on a LD theme. As we are predictably receiving a lot of enquiries it occurs to me that ILDS members might want to let us know at an early stage, in case the seminar is overbooked.
RP
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Denise Tart & David Green 
  To: Durrel 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 6:51 AM
  Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Women


  Thanks, David.  More ammo.  I don't think, however, that Nancy was a "blond bimbo."  She strikes me as intelligent, creative, and strong willed.  Which may not have been the way LD liked his women.

  Bruce and List
  It seems to me that Larry, like many artists, had to be centre stage in the great creation of his life and work. Women were either muses or sexual objects sometimes both. Claude Forde, from my readings, seems to have been that one that took Larry for what he was; good and bad things. she could cope with his drinking and creative madnesses and self absorbsion. Nancy, Eve and Ghislaine could not and nor could he endure their intrusion upon the way he was or liked to live. Hater of women? No. Hater of women as equals? yes! Women had a powerful role in Larry's life but as grist to his mill, as pigments for his canvas and certainly as companions at the wine table or in the bedroom but not as brighter suns than him.

  David




  Denise Tart & David Green
  16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204

  +61 2 9564 6165
  0412 707 625
  dtart at bigpond.net.au


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  ILDS mailing list
  ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
  https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Wed Nov 14 06:32:15 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:32:15 -0500
Subject: [ilds] DSC: 'AN INVESTIGATION OF MODERN LOVE'  18-23 May 2008
In-Reply-To: <017501c826ca$44903590$7a95e9d5@rpinelaptop>
References: <008901c8268a$c4a9e4f0$0201a8c0@MumandDad>
	<017501c826ca$44903590$7a95e9d5@rpinelaptop>
Message-ID: <473B06EF.30500@wfu.edu>

 CALL FOR SEMINAR PAPERS

'AN INVESTIGATION OF MODERN LOVE'
18-23 May 2008

http://www.durrell-school-corfu.org/cfp2008_ml.htm

The Durrell School of Corfu will host 'An Investigation of Modern Love', 
an international seminar, at its Library and Study Centre, 18-23 May, 
2008. Dr. Shere Hite and Professor Joseph Boone, University of Southern 
California, will act as moderators. We invite submissions on all aspects 
of literature, psychology, cultural history, sexology, gender studies 
and sociology relating to 'Modern Love'. We also hope to receive 
submissions addressing the work of Lawrence Durrell and those who 
influenced him or were influenced by him.

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 14 06:43:25 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 06:43:25 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
Message-ID: <31154262.1195051406476.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I might add the forthcoming work of John Bandler, who has written a novel about Cyprus.


BR

-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>Sent: Nov 14, 2007 6:02 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>
>PPS (sorry for oversight) I should also also have mentioned Costas Montis: Closed Doors, an answer to Lawrence Durrell's Bitter Lemons (2004)
>RP
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: Photo Album 
>  To: ILDS at lists.uvic.ca 
>  Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 10:07 AM
>  Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>
>
>  Dear all, 
>
>  I am currently working on a documentary about the cultural relations between UK and Cyprus, as part of my postgraduate studies at the University of the West of England, and I want to make extended use of Durrell's "Bitter Lemons of Cyprus". 
>
>  Does anybody know any English literature that discusses or evaluates Durrell's political and cultural positions over Cyprus? 
>
>  Any comment would be greatly appreciated, 
>
>  Helena Markou
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  ILDS mailing list
>  ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>  https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 14 06:45:53 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 06:45:53 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Durrell banner in Alexandria
Message-ID: <3063879.1195051553900.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Impressive.  What would have old LD have thought?


BR

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Nov 14, 2007 6:19 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] Durrell banner in Alexandria



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 14 06:53:10 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 06:53:10 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Women
Message-ID: <10235058.1195051991072.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Interesting.  Or would in awe of them also be appropriate?


BR

-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>Sent: Nov 14, 2007 5:38 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's Women
>
>To which I would add that I think Larry was AFRAID of women. Maybe this had soemthing to do with the 'trauma of birth'. Being married to a successful writer was perhaps a big element in his respect for Claude,  but (according to MacNiven) it didnt stop his violence towards her. RP
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: Denise Tart & David Green 
>  To: Durrel 
>  Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 6:51 AM
>  Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Women
>
>
>  Thanks, David.  More ammo.  I don't think, however, that Nancy was a "blond bimbo."  She strikes me as intelligent, creative, and strong willed.  Which may not have been the way LD liked his women.
>
>  Bruce and List
>  It seems to me that Larry, like many artists, had to be centre stage in the great creation of his life and work. Women were either muses or sexual objects sometimes both. Claude Forde, from my readings, seems to have been that one that took Larry for what he was; good and bad things. she could cope with his drinking and creative madnesses and self absorbsion. Nancy, Eve and Ghislaine could not and nor could he endure their intrusion upon the way he was or liked to live. Hater of women? No. Hater of women as equals? yes! Women had a powerful role in Larry's life but as grist to his mill, as pigments for his canvas and certainly as companions at the wine table or in the bedroom but not as brighter suns than him.
>
>  David



From slighcl at wfu.edu  Wed Nov 14 06:57:20 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:57:20 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Durrell banner in Alexandria
In-Reply-To: <3063879.1195051553900.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <3063879.1195051553900.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <473B0CD0.50702@wfu.edu>

On 11/14/2007 9:45 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>     Impressive. What would have old LD have thought?
>
>   
The dead have lips to speak if we will listen. 

In 1944 Durrell wrote and published his own Alexandrian epitaph.  It reads:

        Larry

        Here lies fat L.D. a poet.
        His prose was verse--he did not know it.
        His verse, he did not guess, was prose,--
        But worse than either was his Pose.


Long may he lie before us.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 14 07:16:26 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:16:26 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Alexandrian Epitaph
Message-ID: <10215288.1195053387119.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Charles, I could not find this in Collected Poems, 1931-1974 (Faber, 1980).  Where did it originally appear and why wasn't it included in the 1980 edition, which James A. Brigham edited and Durrell, presumably, approved?  A good poem but too revealing?  I seem to recall Durrell mentioning another epitaph about wishing "long lives and great passions," but maybe that was a jest in the Durrell-Miller letters.


Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Nov 14, 2007 6:57 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell banner in Alexandria
>
>On 11/14/2007 9:45 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>
>>     Impressive. What would have old LD have thought?
>>
>>   
>The dead have lips to speak if we will listen. 
>
>In 1944 Durrell wrote and published his own Alexandrian epitaph.  It reads:
>
>        Larry
>
>        Here lies fat L.D. a poet.
>        His prose was verse--he did not know it.
>        His verse, he did not guess, was prose,--
>        But worse than either was his Pose.
>
>
>Long may he lie before us.
>
>Charles


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Wed Nov 14 07:57:03 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:57:03 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Alexandrian Epitaph
In-Reply-To: <10215288.1195053387119.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <10215288.1195053387119.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <473B1ACF.9030600@wfu.edu>

On 11/14/2007 10:16 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
> Charles, I could not find this in Collected Poems, 1931-1974 (Faber, 1980).  Where did it originally appear and why wasn't it included in the 1980 edition, which James A. Brigham edited and Durrell, presumably, approved?  
You caught me, Bruce.  Cite the poem as coming from what Durrell called 
his "minor pyramid to Folly":/   Premature Epitaphs and All/.  By L.D. 
Alexandria, 1944.   The pamphlet was published privately in a small 
hand-made batch of 6 copies.  My reference copy sits at Carbondale.

James Gifford might be able to tell us if Brigham and Durrell ever 
discussed including the epitaphs.  I doubt so.  The verse is 
personal--"bounden love and idiocy to five several friends"--and 
occasional.  A more-refined spirit of these epitaphs, however, fills 
much of Pursewarden's jottings. 

And that might just make some sort of sense.  Again, my hunch is that 
Durrell invents in Pursewarden a way of writing about his own posthumous 
state while still alive.  That is, Pursewarden is a mask by means of 
which Durrell imagines--even "pre-emptively" dramatizes--his own death 
and posthumous reputation.  Taken in concert with Darley--the mask of 
the /ephebe /or novice--that means that Durrell in his /Quartet /at once 
acts out his "arrival" and his "departure."  In what way do all of 
Durrell's work partake of the "epitaph" genre?   That seems an 
inescapable designation by the time we arrive at the /Quintet/, in every 
way a thanatographic work.  But perhaps this all my own "love" and 
"idiocy". . . .

>                Larry
>
>                Here lies fat L.D. a poet.
>                His prose was verse--he did not know it.
>                His verse, he did not guess, was prose,--
>                But worse than either was his Pose. 

Note how the "Larry" epitaph echoes Eliot's repeated query to Durrell, 
Are you a poet?  Or are you a novelist?  What exactly are you up to?  I 
also suspect some sort of direct or indirect recollection by Durrell of 
Wilde's quip, "Meredith is a prose Browning, and so is Browning.  He 
used poetry as a medium for writing in prose."   (The Alexandrian 
notebooks and verse have several glances at Wilde and Pater.)

Bill Godshalk will discuss these Alexandrian epitaphs at Louisville in 
February.  (Okay, Bill.  I know. I know.  Keep checking the mail.)

Best--

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From richardpin at eircom.net  Wed Nov 14 07:40:45 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:40:45 -0000
Subject: [ilds] Durrell banner in Alexandria
References: <3063879.1195051553900.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<473B0CD0.50702@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <01d101c826d4$bb188e10$7a95e9d5@rpinelaptop>

Is this a variant on the version I saw ?

Ci-git Lawrence Durrell the poet
His prose was verse:
h
He didn't know it.
He never guessed his verse was prose;
But worse than either was his pose.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: slighcl 
  To: Bruce Redwine ; ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 2:57 PM
  Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell banner in Alexandria


  On 11/14/2007 9:45 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote: 
      Impressive. What would have old LD have thought?

  The dead have lips to speak if we will listen.  

  In 1944 Durrell wrote and published his own Alexandrian epitaph.  It reads:


      Larry

      Here lies fat L.D. a poet.
      His prose was verse--he did not know it.
      His verse, he did not guess, was prose,--
      But worse than either was his Pose.


  Long may he lie before us.

  Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  ILDS mailing list
  ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
  https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From richardpin at eircom.net  Wed Nov 14 07:42:50 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:42:50 -0000
Subject: [ilds] Alexandrian Epitaph
References: <10215288.1195053387119.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <01de01c826d5$05a02510$7a95e9d5@rpinelaptop>

It's in manuscript at Carbondale in a notebook dating from c. 1938. Modesty 
and Bruce's allergy prevents me from saying where it was first published (p. 
55 actually)
Rp
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 3:16 PM
Subject: [ilds] Alexandrian Epitaph


> Charles, I could not find this in Collected Poems, 1931-1974 (Faber, 
> 1980).  Where did it originally appear and why wasn't it included in the 
> 1980 edition, which James A. Brigham edited and Durrell, presumably, 
> approved?  A good poem but too revealing?  I seem to recall Durrell 
> mentioning another epitaph about wishing "long lives and great passions," 
> but maybe that was a jest in the Durrell-Miller letters.
>
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>>Sent: Nov 14, 2007 6:57 AM
>>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell banner in Alexandria
>>
>>On 11/14/2007 9:45 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>
>>>     Impressive. What would have old LD have thought?
>>>
>>>
>>The dead have lips to speak if we will listen.
>>
>>In 1944 Durrell wrote and published his own Alexandrian epitaph.  It 
>>reads:
>>
>>        Larry
>>
>>        Here lies fat L.D. a poet.
>>        His prose was verse--he did not know it.
>>        His verse, he did not guess, was prose,--
>>        But worse than either was his Pose.
>>
>>
>>Long may he lie before us.
>>
>>Charles
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From bandler at mcmaster.ca  Wed Nov 14 07:45:29 2007
From: bandler at mcmaster.ca (John Bandler)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:45:29 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
References: <31154262.1195051406476.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00ff01c826d5$629c7750$6700a8c0@pentium4>

See also:

Petra Tournay, "Colonial Encounters: Lawrence Durrell's Bitter Lemons of 
Cyprus," in Lawrence Durrell and the Greek World, A. Lillios, Ed., 
Associated University Presses, 2004.

Vangelis Calotychos, " 'Lawrence Durrell, the Bitterest Lemon?': Cyps and 
Brits Loving Each Other to Death in Cyprus, 1953-1957," in Lawrence Durrell 
and the Greek World, A. Lillios, Ed., Associated University Presses, 2004.

John Bandler, "Durrell's Cyprus-Tainted Observations on the Colonial and 
Postcolonial," ACLALS Conference: Literature for Our Times, University of 
British Columbia, Vancouver, BC, Canada, August 17-22, 2007.

John


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons


>I might add the forthcoming work of John Bandler, who has written a novel 
>about Cyprus.
>
>
> BR
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>>Sent: Nov 14, 2007 6:02 AM
>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>>
>>PPS (sorry for oversight) I should also also have mentioned Costas Montis: 
>>Closed Doors, an answer to Lawrence Durrell's Bitter Lemons (2004)
>>RP
>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>  From: Photo Album
>>  To: ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>  Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 10:07 AM
>>  Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>>
>>
>>  Dear all,
>>
>>  I am currently working on a documentary about the cultural relations 
>> between UK and Cyprus, as part of my postgraduate studies at the 
>> University of the West of England, and I want to make extended use of 
>> Durrell's "Bitter Lemons of Cyprus".
>>
>>  Does anybody know any English literature that discusses or evaluates 
>> Durrell's political and cultural positions over Cyprus?
>>
>>  Any comment would be greatly appreciated,
>>
>>  Helena Markou
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  ILDS mailing list
>>  ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>  https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 



From slighcl at wfu.edu  Wed Nov 14 08:18:50 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:18:50 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Durrell banner in Alexandria
In-Reply-To: <01d101c826d4$bb188e10$7a95e9d5@rpinelaptop>
References: <3063879.1195051553900.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<473B0CD0.50702@wfu.edu>
	<01d101c826d4$bb188e10$7a95e9d5@rpinelaptop>
Message-ID: <473B1FEA.70503@wfu.edu>

On 11/14/2007 10:40 AM, Richard Pine wrote:
> Is this a variant on the version I saw ?
>  
> Ci-git Lawrence Durrell the poet
> His prose was verse:
> h
> He didn't know it.
> He never guessed his verse was prose;
> But worse than either was his pose.
It must be, Richard.  I am transcribing directly from digital images of 
/Premature Epitaphs/ (1944) that I shot at Carbondale. 

You write:

> It's in manuscript at Carbondale in a notebook dating from c. 1938.
So yes as we have all said LD was a consummate re-cycler, a quarry-man, &c.

C&c.

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Wed Nov 14 08:26:26 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:26:26 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
In-Reply-To: <00ff01c826d5$629c7750$6700a8c0@pentium4>
References: <31154262.1195051406476.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<00ff01c826d5$629c7750$6700a8c0@pentium4>
Message-ID: <473B21B2.6030304@wfu.edu>

Many thanks to all who have written in response to Helena's query about 
/Bitter Lemons/.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 09:02:26 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:02:26 -0800
Subject: [ilds] Alexandrian Epitaph
In-Reply-To: <473B1ACF.9030600@wfu.edu>
References: <10215288.1195053387119.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<473B1ACF.9030600@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <473B2A22.302@gmail.com>

 > You caught me, Bruce.  Cite the poem as coming from
 > what Durrell called his "minor pyramid to Folly":/
 > Premature Epitaphs and All/.  By L.D. Alexandria, 1944.
 > The pamphlet was published privately in a small
 > hand-made batch of 6 copies.  My reference copy sits
 > at Carbondale.
 >
 > James Gifford might be able to tell us if Brigham and
 > Durrell ever discussed including the epitaphs.  I doubt
 > so.

I suspect Durrell didn't give a copy of the booklet to Brigham, and no 
one else had one...  With only six printed copies, it's entirely 
possible Durrell just forgot about the thing.  Brigham did, however, 
acquire a huge collection of the print variants of the poems, which is 
now available for sale.

As for his work with Brigham, alas there isn't much correspondence on 
the matter since Brigham appears to have visited Durrell to do much of 
the work on site.  There is a confusion in the first ts. about who did 
the typing -- it seems to match Durrell's typewriter, but it's mixed in 
with Jay's ts., making me suspect that Brigham may have typed while 
visiting.

Brigham had intended to include all variants, and Durrell's nixed that, 
saying that was future work -- the first ts. includes many but not all 
variants.  Jay also had to convince Durrell to keep the dedications 
(shifting as they were) and the annotations to "Cities, Plains, People," 
which I believe is gone from the edition now somehow.

Replicas of the related correspondence and each originals of stage of 
the ts. from notebook transcriptions through to the final ts. and 
replicas of the corrected proofs are at the University of Victoria (not 
yet catalogued).  Jay had been under the impression he made the final 
corrections to the proofs, but it appears that Durrell had a distinct 
series of corrections after him, which are currently unaccounted for.

If anyone is interested, I once posted my description of those materials 
to the list, and it's here in the archive:

https://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/Week-of-Mon-20070528/001481.html

The link to the attachment is at the bottom of the page.

My best,
James

ps: "Pursewarden's Incorrigibilia" may shed further light on Durrell's 
writing through his alter ego (circa 1962 -- see the bibliography for 
the full citation to both printings).

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 14 09:12:38 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:12:38 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
Message-ID: <7983556.1195060359277.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Good to hear from you, John.


Cheers,


Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: John Bandler <bandler at mcmaster.ca>
>Sent: Nov 14, 2007 7:45 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>
>See also:
>
>Petra Tournay, "Colonial Encounters: Lawrence Durrell's Bitter Lemons of 
>Cyprus," in Lawrence Durrell and the Greek World, A. Lillios, Ed., 
>Associated University Presses, 2004.
>
>Vangelis Calotychos, " 'Lawrence Durrell, the Bitterest Lemon?': Cyps and 
>Brits Loving Each Other to Death in Cyprus, 1953-1957," in Lawrence Durrell 
>and the Greek World, A. Lillios, Ed., Associated University Presses, 2004.
>
>John Bandler, "Durrell's Cyprus-Tainted Observations on the Colonial and 
>Postcolonial," ACLALS Conference: Literature for Our Times, University of 
>British Columbia, Vancouver, BC, Canada, August 17-22, 2007.
>
>John
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 9:43 AM
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>
>
>>I might add the forthcoming work of John Bandler, who has written a novel 
>>about Cyprus.
>>
>>
>> BR


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 14 09:34:00 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:34:00 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Partaking of the Epitaph Genre
Message-ID: <13882269.1195061640909.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Charles and Bill,

I find this very interesting and important, epitaphs and Pursewarden as tombstone for writing such.  I hope an article will solidify this line of thought.  Not to forget, of course, the very old pun on "lies" and lying.  Cf. WS's Sonnet 138.


BR

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Nov 14, 2007 7:57 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca, Bill Godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Alexandrian Epitaph
>
>On 11/14/2007 10:16 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>> Charles, I could not find this in Collected Poems, 1931-1974 (Faber, 1980).  Where did it originally appear and why wasn't it included in the 1980 edition, which James A. Brigham edited and Durrell, presumably, approved?  
>You caught me, Bruce.  Cite the poem as coming from what Durrell called 
>his "minor pyramid to Folly":/   Premature Epitaphs and All/.  By L.D. 
>Alexandria, 1944.   The pamphlet was published privately in a small 
>hand-made batch of 6 copies.  My reference copy sits at Carbondale.
>
>James Gifford might be able to tell us if Brigham and Durrell ever 
>discussed including the epitaphs.  I doubt so.  The verse is 
>personal--"bounden love and idiocy to five several friends"--and 
>occasional.  A more-refined spirit of these epitaphs, however, fills 
>much of Pursewarden's jottings. 
>
>And that might just make some sort of sense.  Again, my hunch is that 
>Durrell invents in Pursewarden a way of writing about his own posthumous 
>state while still alive.  That is, Pursewarden is a mask by means of 
>which Durrell imagines--even "pre-emptively" dramatizes--his own death 
>and posthumous reputation.  Taken in concert with Darley--the mask of 
>the /ephebe /or novice--that means that Durrell in his /Quartet /at once 
>acts out his "arrival" and his "departure."  In what way do all of 
>Durrell's work partake of the "epitaph" genre?   That seems an 
>inescapable designation by the time we arrive at the /Quintet/, in every 
>way a thanatographic work.  But perhaps this all my own "love" and 
>"idiocy". . . .
>
>>                Larry
>>
>>                Here lies fat L.D. a poet.
>>                His prose was verse--he did not know it.
>>                His verse, he did not guess, was prose,--
>>                But worse than either was his Pose. 
>
>Note how the "Larry" epitaph echoes Eliot's repeated query to Durrell, 
>Are you a poet?  Or are you a novelist?  What exactly are you up to?  I 
>also suspect some sort of direct or indirect recollection by Durrell of 
>Wilde's quip, "Meredith is a prose Browning, and so is Browning.  He 
>used poetry as a medium for writing in prose."   (The Alexandrian 
>notebooks and verse have several glances at Wilde and Pater.)
>
>Bill Godshalk will discuss these Alexandrian epitaphs at Louisville in 
>February.  (Okay, Bill.  I know. I know.  Keep checking the mail.)
>
>Best--
>
>Charles


From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 09:49:48 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:49:48 -0800
Subject: [ilds] Partaking of the Epitaph Genre
In-Reply-To: <13882269.1195061640909.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <13882269.1195061640909.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <473B353C.6010603@gmail.com>

It's worth adding that LD knew Shax's sonnets very well and lectured on 
them for UNESCO (twice, I believe, but I might be wrong) -- his 
discussion is largely indebted to Wilde's "The Portrait of Mr. W.H." (a 
text I enjoy teaching regularly!), and Wilde appears frequently in 
allusions in _The Black Book_.

I'm sure Durrell knew he was lying in every epitaph (and epigraph...) he 
wrote...  My reading is that every moment of self-revelation and 
self-discovery is some kind of a lie in LD's works.  He was making those 
things, not finding them, and 'made' things tend not to be consistent 
over time.

Best,
James



Bruce Redwine wrote:
> Charles and Bill,
> 
> I find this very interesting and important, epitaphs and Pursewarden as
 > tombstone for writing such.  I hope an article will solidify this line
 > of thought.  Not to forget, of course, the very old pun on "lies" and
 > lying.  Cf. WS's Sonnet 138.
> 
> 
> BR

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 14 10:11:48 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:11:48 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Partaking of the Epitaph Genre
Message-ID: <15885356.1195063908362.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I wouldn't say he was lying, certainly not in the strictest sense of speaking falsely and being aware of that.  I think he knew himself pretty well.  I suspect, when he wasn't pontificating, he was dodgy and wanted to throw his pursuers off the trail, every now and then.


BR

-----Original Message-----
>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>Sent: Nov 14, 2007 9:49 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Partaking of the Epitaph Genre
>
>It's worth adding that LD knew Shax's sonnets very well and lectured on 
>them for UNESCO (twice, I believe, but I might be wrong) -- his 
>discussion is largely indebted to Wilde's "The Portrait of Mr. W.H." (a 
>text I enjoy teaching regularly!), and Wilde appears frequently in 
>allusions in _The Black Book_.
>
>I'm sure Durrell knew he was lying in every epitaph (and epigraph...) he 
>wrote...  My reading is that every moment of self-revelation and 
>self-discovery is some kind of a lie in LD's works.  He was making those 
>things, not finding them, and 'made' things tend not to be consistent 
>over time.
>
>Best,
>James
>
>
>
>Bruce Redwine wrote:
>> Charles and Bill,
>> 
>> I find this very interesting and important, epitaphs and Pursewarden as
> > tombstone for writing such.  I hope an article will solidify this line
> > of thought.  Not to forget, of course, the very old pun on "lies" and
> > lying.  Cf. WS's Sonnet 138.
>> 
>> 
>> BR


From richardpin at eircom.net  Wed Nov 14 10:25:28 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:25:28 -0000
Subject: [ilds] Alexandrian Epitaph
References: <10215288.1195053387119.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net><473B1ACF.9030600@wfu.edu>
	<473B2A22.302@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <022601c826eb$be873080$7a95e9d5@rpinelaptop>

I asked Jay Brigham why D had deleted the annotations to Cities Plains and 
People and his only answer was 'I don't know'.
RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Gifford" <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] Alexandrian Epitaph


> > You caught me, Bruce.  Cite the poem as coming from
> > what Durrell called his "minor pyramid to Folly":/
> > Premature Epitaphs and All/.  By L.D. Alexandria, 1944.
> > The pamphlet was published privately in a small
> > hand-made batch of 6 copies.  My reference copy sits
> > at Carbondale.
> >
> > James Gifford might be able to tell us if Brigham and
> > Durrell ever discussed including the epitaphs.  I doubt
> > so.
>
> I suspect Durrell didn't give a copy of the booklet to Brigham, and no
> one else had one...  With only six printed copies, it's entirely
> possible Durrell just forgot about the thing.  Brigham did, however,
> acquire a huge collection of the print variants of the poems, which is
> now available for sale.
>
> As for his work with Brigham, alas there isn't much correspondence on
> the matter since Brigham appears to have visited Durrell to do much of
> the work on site.  There is a confusion in the first ts. about who did
> the typing -- it seems to match Durrell's typewriter, but it's mixed in
> with Jay's ts., making me suspect that Brigham may have typed while
> visiting.
>
> Brigham had intended to include all variants, and Durrell's nixed that,
> saying that was future work -- the first ts. includes many but not all
> variants.  Jay also had to convince Durrell to keep the dedications
> (shifting as they were) and the annotations to "Cities, Plains, People,"
> which I believe is gone from the edition now somehow.
>
> Replicas of the related correspondence and each originals of stage of
> the ts. from notebook transcriptions through to the final ts. and
> replicas of the corrected proofs are at the University of Victoria (not
> yet catalogued).  Jay had been under the impression he made the final
> corrections to the proofs, but it appears that Durrell had a distinct
> series of corrections after him, which are currently unaccounted for.
>
> If anyone is interested, I once posted my description of those materials
> to the list, and it's here in the archive:
>
> https://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/Week-of-Mon-20070528/001481.html
>
> The link to the attachment is at the bottom of the page.
>
> My best,
> James
>
> ps: "Pursewarden's Incorrigibilia" may shed further light on Durrell's
> writing through his alter ego (circa 1962 -- see the bibliography for
> the full citation to both printings).
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 


From sumantranag at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 21:42:22 2007
From: sumantranag at gmail.com (Sumantra Nag)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:12:22 +0530
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 4
References: <mailman.5.1194984003.1532040.ilds@lists.uvic.ca>
Message-ID: <001501c82681$25433fa0$0501a8c0@intel>

Seeing the tenor and phraseology of some recent postings there seems to be 
no point in persisting with the mail from the ILDS site until the nature of 
invective exchanged on the site transcends its current level, and also 
provides some sustained literary discussions anchored on the texts of 
Lawrence Durrell.

I am unsubscribing from the site - temporarily I hope. I have gained 
considerable knowledge about the literary and the social world surrounding 
Lawrence Durrell's writings, and particularly the Alexandria Quartet, from 
the scholarly exchanges here. But sadly, those exchanges don't seem to be 
recurring even at intervals - there is no context for them any more, or so 
it seems! I do not know what the role of the moderators is today on this 
site.

Sumantra Nag



From slighcl at wfu.edu  Wed Nov 14 10:31:10 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:31:10 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Partaking of the Epitaph Genre
In-Reply-To: <13882269.1195061640909.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <13882269.1195061640909.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <473B3EEE.6070503@wfu.edu>

    On 11/14/2007 12:34 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:

>     Charles and Bill,
>
>     I find this very interesting and important, epitaphs and Pursewarden as tombstone for writing such.  I hope an article will solidify this line of thought.  

And from James:

>     ps: "Pursewarden's Incorrigibilia" may shed further light on Durrell's 
>     writing through his alter ego (circa 1962 -- see the bibliography for 
>     the full citation to both printings).

Yes, and yes again.  Bill and I are reading from and speculating aloud 
upon the /Premature Epitaphs/ (1944) and the post-/Quartet /utterances 
of Durrell in the character of Scobie and Pursewarden (circa 1962-ish).  
If that roadshow seems to merit a chronicle, I would enjoy bringing the 
epitaph materials out for fuller treatment.  

        On 11/14/2007 12:34 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:

>         Not to forget, of course, the very old pun on "lies" and lying.  Cf. WS's Sonnet 138.
>               

Yes--I think so, Bruce--and I wrote so, if obliquely:

        On 11/14/2007 9:57 AM, slighcl wrote:

>                 Larry
>
>                 Here lies fat L.D. a poet.
>                 His prose was verse--he did not know it.
>                 His verse, he did not guess, was prose,--
>                 But worse than either was his Pose.
>
>
>         Long may he *lie *before us.

I suppose that it is a truism by now that, whether out interest be in 
the life or in the literature,  LD "lies" before us. 

>         On 11/14/2007 1:11 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>         I wouldn't say he was lying, certainly not in the strictest sense of speaking falsely and being aware of that.  I think he knew himself pretty well.  I suspect, when he wasn't pontificating, he was dodgy and wanted to throw his pursuers off the trail, every now and then.
>>
>>                 

Could I tie the responses of Bruce and James together by offering that I 
read Durrell in his interviews and in his novels as partaking of a 
Wildean game approaching truth by means of "lying" and "masking"?   Note 
that he calls it "posing" in the Alexandrian epitaph. 
>
>             Larry
>
>             Here lies fat L.D. a poet.
>             His prose was verse--he did not know it.
>             His verse, he did not guess, was prose,--
>             But worse than either was his Pose.
>
This epitaph is of course a limited event--something worthy of cocktail 
parties--but read along with LD's mature works that 1944 "pose" calls to 
my mind "posing" (as in faking) as well as "posing" (as in "posing a 
question" or the really big "supposer"). 

Both James and Bruce have played variations upon Shax's sonnets, so I 
immediately thought of "Mr W.H." and "The Critic as Artist."  Richard 
has done much thinking and writing along these dandiacal lines (/lyins/?).

/Basta/!  Content thee!

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Wed Nov 14 10:44:54 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:44:54 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Regarding Sumantra's exit from the list
In-Reply-To: <001501c82681$25433fa0$0501a8c0@intel>
References: <mailman.5.1194984003.1532040.ilds@lists.uvic.ca>
	<001501c82681$25433fa0$0501a8c0@intel>
Message-ID: <473B4226.5050001@wfu.edu>

Regarding Sumantra's exit from the list:

I have already responded to Sumantra in a direct email, expressing my 
regret that he is taking temporary leave but encouraging him to follow 
his conscience.

Let me respond by encouraging us all to keep "conscience" at the fore.  
Speak truth, speak it feelingly, and speak it accurately.  But let us 
always speak in the spirit of our common cause--the interest we take in 
and the pleasures that we discover in the writings and the life of 
Lawrence Durrell. 

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 14 11:08:51 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:08:51 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Regarding Sumantra's exit from the list
Message-ID: <156724.1195067332134.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

It seems to me that the ILDS forum is not an afternoon tea party where people come in coat and tie and await a few speakers to talk politely and at length on polite subjects, while the audience sits back and listens and nods.  The forum is open to all kinds of discourse -- some cool and expository, some heated and emotional -- and it's up to all the participants, not only the ones talking, to do a little work and get what they can out of the exchanges and discussions.


BR

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Nov 14, 2007 10:44 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] Regarding Sumantra's exit from the list
>
>Regarding Sumantra's exit from the list:
>
>I have already responded to Sumantra in a direct email, expressing my 
>regret that he is taking temporary leave but encouraging him to follow 
>his conscience.
>
>Let me respond by encouraging us all to keep "conscience" at the fore.  
>Speak truth, speak it feelingly, and speak it accurately.  But let us 
>always speak in the spirit of our common cause--the interest we take in 
>and the pleasures that we discover in the writings and the life of 
>Lawrence Durrell. 
>
>Charles


From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 11:38:42 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:38:42 -0800
Subject: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
Message-ID: <473B4EC2.2020309@gmail.com>

Perhaps some LD scholars are interested in digging up his short story on 
Judith published serially or his film treatment?  It's not the best 
film, but it's political.

Best,
James

---------------

The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference

Proposals are invited for papers examining any aspect of the book or
figure of Judith, for a multidisciplinary conference to be held at
The New York Public Library, April 17-18, 2008. Contributions are
welcome from scholars working in any field, including but not limited
to Bible, ancient history and archaeology, classics and semitics,
fine and performing art history, medieval and modern literature in
all languages, and gender studies. Papers that address the Judith
narrative in its larger contexts are particularly welcome. A private
website and wiki technology will enable scholars to circulate their
work-in-progress before and after the conference. Research grants are
available and all travel expenses and accommodations will be paid for
invited participants.

The conference is part of the Judith Project, an effort to loosen the
grip of disciplinarity through collaborative scholarly practice.
Organized around the biblical/apocryphal text and figure of Judith,
the Judith Project will offer scholars the opportunity to pursue
their own research agendas on Judith, as part of a year-long
technology-enabled team effort. It will also leave, as an online
legacy, a searchable corpus of digital images, accessible via the non-
profit ARTstor library, and, as a central point of bibliographic
reference, a comprehensive register, on The New York Public Library's
website, of literature related to the Book of Judith and its
iconography across the ages.

Up to thirty university- or operating foundation-administered grants
are available from the Judith Project's sponsor, the Brine Family
Charitable Trust, offering from $6,000 to $11,000 for research on the
Judith theme. Submissions should include the scholar's CV and a
proposal limited to a maximum of 1,500 words. Grant request
submissions must include the administering institution's name and
address, the name of the department/program chair or director, a
detailed pro forma budget request, and the e-mail address of the
institution's administrative contact. US institutions should supply
federal tax identification number and nonprofit designation. Grant
requests require the signature of the department chair/program
director. Budget proposals can include up to 20 percent departmental
allocation. Please direct all submissions to
Judith2008 at rarewildflower.org.

SUBMISSION AND PUBLICATION TIMELINE
November 30, 2007: Proposal submission deadline.
December 31, 2007: Papers selected and applicants notified by e-mail.
December 31, 2007: Launch of Sword of Judith participants' website.
January 15, 2008: Grants remitted for university- and foundation-
administered grants.
March 21, 2008: Completed papers must be ready to be posted on the
conference website.
April 17-18, 2008: "The Sword of Judith" conference at The New York
Public Library.
August 31, 2008: All final entries for publication must be submitted
by e-mail. On receipt of the publishable final paper, the remaining
30 percent of the research/production stipend remitted. Work
submitted after August 31 will not be eligible for the final payment
or publication.
Fall 2008/Winter 2009: Publication of "The Sword of Judith"
conference volume.

Michael Terry
Chief, Dorot Jewish Division
The New York Public Library
Phone: (212) 930-0603

From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Wed Nov 14 16:32:53 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:32:53 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Some MT. OLYMPUS SCANDAL HEADLINES at your SuperMarket
	Checkout
In-Reply-To: <022601c826eb$be873080$7a95e9d5@rpinelaptop>
References: <10215288.1195053387119.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<473B1ACF.9030600@wfu.edu> <473B2A22.302@gmail.com>
	<022601c826eb$be873080$7a95e9d5@rpinelaptop>
Message-ID: <B7.D4.27345.5B39B374@gwout1>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 14 16:47:06 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:47:06 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Some MT. OLYMPUS SCANDAL HEADLINES at your
	SuperMarket	Checkout
Message-ID: <3447438.1195087626897.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Wed Nov 14 16:54:41 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:54:41 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Some MT. OLYMPUS SCANDAL HEADLINES at your
 SuperMarket	Checkout
In-Reply-To: <3447438.1195087626897.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.s
	a.earthlink.net>
References: <3447438.1195087626897.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <80.C8.27345.0D89B374@gwout1>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Wed Nov 14 19:29:46 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:29:46 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Partaking of the Epitaph Genre
In-Reply-To: <15885356.1195063908362.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.
	earthlink.net>
References: <15885356.1195063908362.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DA.0C.20239.92DBB374@gwout2>

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From minakakisl at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 19:31:59 2007
From: minakakisl at gmail.com (Lou Minakakis)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:31:59 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Durrell banner in Alexandria
In-Reply-To: <9C3FF6CA-92BC-11DC-81A7-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <9C3FF6CA-92BC-11DC-81A7-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <8fe1f68d0711141931g17ced9d9sca6a0b991fb9239@mail.gmail.com>

Are there any plans, or the enthusiasm and know-how, to digitally
record the conference and distribute as a podcast?

http://www.britishcouncil.org/egypt-arts-culture-events-durrell.htm

On Nov 14, 2007 9:19 AM, Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com> wrote:
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>

From richardpin at eircom.net  Thu Nov 15 02:26:00 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:26:00 -0000
Subject: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
References: <473B4EC2.2020309@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007b01c82771$ede625d0$d194e9d5@rpinelaptop>

It isn't a short story - it's a novella - 134 pp. typescript - from which 
the film (Sophia Loren) deviates significantly. LD established quite a 
friendship with Loren during the filming. The DSC hopes to publish the 
story/novella next year. The politics of the Palestinian mandated territory 
are interesting, given what is going on today.
RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Gifford" <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
To: "ILDS Listserv" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 7:38 PM
Subject: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference


> Perhaps some LD scholars are interested in digging up his short story on
> Judith published serially or his film treatment?  It's not the best
> film, but it's political.
>
> Best,
> James
>
> ---------------
>
> The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
>
> Proposals are invited for papers examining any aspect of the book or
> figure of Judith, for a multidisciplinary conference to be held at
> The New York Public Library, April 17-18, 2008. Contributions are
> welcome from scholars working in any field, including but not limited
> to Bible, ancient history and archaeology, classics and semitics,
> fine and performing art history, medieval and modern literature in
> all languages, and gender studies. Papers that address the Judith
> narrative in its larger contexts are particularly welcome. A private
> website and wiki technology will enable scholars to circulate their
> work-in-progress before and after the conference. Research grants are
> available and all travel expenses and accommodations will be paid for
> invited participants.
>
> The conference is part of the Judith Project, an effort to loosen the
> grip of disciplinarity through collaborative scholarly practice.
> Organized around the biblical/apocryphal text and figure of Judith,
> the Judith Project will offer scholars the opportunity to pursue
> their own research agendas on Judith, as part of a year-long
> technology-enabled team effort. It will also leave, as an online
> legacy, a searchable corpus of digital images, accessible via the non-
> profit ARTstor library, and, as a central point of bibliographic
> reference, a comprehensive register, on The New York Public Library's
> website, of literature related to the Book of Judith and its
> iconography across the ages.
>
> Up to thirty university- or operating foundation-administered grants
> are available from the Judith Project's sponsor, the Brine Family
> Charitable Trust, offering from $6,000 to $11,000 for research on the
> Judith theme. Submissions should include the scholar's CV and a
> proposal limited to a maximum of 1,500 words. Grant request
> submissions must include the administering institution's name and
> address, the name of the department/program chair or director, a
> detailed pro forma budget request, and the e-mail address of the
> institution's administrative contact. US institutions should supply
> federal tax identification number and nonprofit designation. Grant
> requests require the signature of the department chair/program
> director. Budget proposals can include up to 20 percent departmental
> allocation. Please direct all submissions to
> Judith2008 at rarewildflower.org.
>
> SUBMISSION AND PUBLICATION TIMELINE
> November 30, 2007: Proposal submission deadline.
> December 31, 2007: Papers selected and applicants notified by e-mail.
> December 31, 2007: Launch of Sword of Judith participants' website.
> January 15, 2008: Grants remitted for university- and foundation-
> administered grants.
> March 21, 2008: Completed papers must be ready to be posted on the
> conference website.
> April 17-18, 2008: "The Sword of Judith" conference at The New York
> Public Library.
> August 31, 2008: All final entries for publication must be submitted
> by e-mail. On receipt of the publishable final paper, the remaining
> 30 percent of the research/production stipend remitted. Work
> submitted after August 31 will not be eligible for the final payment
> or publication.
> Fall 2008/Winter 2009: Publication of "The Sword of Judith"
> conference volume.
>
> Michael Terry
> Chief, Dorot Jewish Division
> The New York Public Library
> Phone: (212) 930-0603
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 


From hellmark17 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 03:33:44 2007
From: hellmark17 at gmail.com (Photo Album)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:33:44 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
In-Reply-To: <7983556.1195060359277.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <7983556.1195060359277.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <bf4cad210711150333n4876be74q73425746f2a8c63e@mail.gmail.com>

Many thanks to everyone.

Your contribution is invaluable.

I hope that the documentary will be a fine piece and I will contact with you
for further news. Surely, it would be honor for me to have my documentary in
Durrell School.

Thanking you again for your help,

Helena Markou
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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Thu Nov 15 05:08:07 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:08:07 -0500
Subject: [ilds] documentary & herald
In-Reply-To: <bf4cad210711150333n4876be74q73425746f2a8c63e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7983556.1195060359277.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<bf4cad210711150333n4876be74q73425746f2a8c63e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <473C44B7.4030300@wfu.edu>

On 11/15/2007 6:33 AM, Photo Album wrote:
>
>     I hope that the documentary will be a fine piece and I will
>     contact with you for further news. Surely, it would be honor for
>     me to have my documentary in Durrell School. 
>
Please do keep us posted, Helena.  Pamela Francis keeps up the ILDS 
chronicle via our newsletter, The ILDS /Herald/.  I am certain that 
Pamela would be keen to make announcements about your project in that organ.

Here follows Pamela's email address:

        albigensian at hotmail.com

Best wishes,

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 15 06:29:26 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 06:29:26 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] MT. OLYMPUS SCANDAL
Message-ID: <20634593.1195136967253.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I suspect Bill's clever outburst was intended as a response to a recent ILDS announcement.  The smartest person in Lear is the fool.


BR

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Nov 14, 2007 5:18 PM
>To: Bill Godshalk <godshawl at EMAIL.UC.EDU>, bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
>Subject: MT. OLYMPUS SCANDAL
>
>On 11/14/2007 7:32 PM, william godshalk wrote:
>> */  /*
>> */CHILD ABUSE/AT AULUS/STORM AIDS ABUSER'S ESCAPE
>> /* 
>> */MULTIPLE FAMILY MURDERS/ IN THEBES AND ARGOS/ MAN BLINDS HIMSELF / 
>> SON KILLS MOTHER/ MOTHER KILLS CHILDREN/MEDIA IN FRENZY
>> /* 
>Bill:
>
>My initial thought was, "Well, there we have it: Bill's gone out for 
>what they are now calling 'Trauma Studies.'"
>
>But then I understood.  Yes, indeed.  These satyrico-mythic headlines do 
>have something of a Durrellian ring.  Cf. Pursewarden's incorrigible 
>graffiti in /Clea/:



From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 07:08:07 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 07:08:07 -0800
Subject: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
In-Reply-To: <007b01c82771$ede625d0$d194e9d5@rpinelaptop>
References: <473B4EC2.2020309@gmail.com>
	<007b01c82771$ede625d0$d194e9d5@rpinelaptop>
Message-ID: <473C60D7.3000705@gmail.com>

Thanks Richard -- I've only seen about half of it as serialized.  I 
still haven't been able to buy the remainder of it...  I've only seen 
most of the film once on late night TV, but I haven't been able to rent 
of buy it anywhere.

I haven't thought about it seriously, but I wonder how much of Judith 
could be read in relation to the Palestine plot in the _Quartet_? 
Perhaps anyone out there who has read it in full could comment.

Best,
James

ps: I think having the text published is an excellent idea.

Richard Pine wrote:
> It isn't a short story - it's a novella - 134 pp. typescript - from which 
> the film (Sophia Loren) deviates significantly. LD established quite a 
> friendship with Loren during the filming. The DSC hopes to publish the 
> story/novella next year. The politics of the Palestinian mandated territory 
> are interesting, given what is going on today.
> RP
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "James Gifford" <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
> To: "ILDS Listserv" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 7:38 PM
> Subject: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
> 
> 
>> Perhaps some LD scholars are interested in digging up his short story on
>> Judith published serially or his film treatment?  It's not the best
>> film, but it's political.
>>
>> Best,
>> James
>>
>> ---------------
>>
>> The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
>>
>> Proposals are invited for papers examining any aspect of the book or
>> figure of Judith, for a multidisciplinary conference to be held at
>> The New York Public Library, April 17-18, 2008. Contributions are
>> welcome from scholars working in any field, including but not limited
>> to Bible, ancient history and archaeology, classics and semitics,
>> fine and performing art history, medieval and modern literature in
>> all languages, and gender studies. Papers that address the Judith
>> narrative in its larger contexts are particularly welcome. A private
>> website and wiki technology will enable scholars to circulate their
>> work-in-progress before and after the conference. Research grants are
>> available and all travel expenses and accommodations will be paid for
>> invited participants.
>>
>> The conference is part of the Judith Project, an effort to loosen the
>> grip of disciplinarity through collaborative scholarly practice.
>> Organized around the biblical/apocryphal text and figure of Judith,
>> the Judith Project will offer scholars the opportunity to pursue
>> their own research agendas on Judith, as part of a year-long
>> technology-enabled team effort. It will also leave, as an online
>> legacy, a searchable corpus of digital images, accessible via the non-
>> profit ARTstor library, and, as a central point of bibliographic
>> reference, a comprehensive register, on The New York Public Library's
>> website, of literature related to the Book of Judith and its
>> iconography across the ages.
>>
>> Up to thirty university- or operating foundation-administered grants
>> are available from the Judith Project's sponsor, the Brine Family
>> Charitable Trust, offering from $6,000 to $11,000 for research on the
>> Judith theme. Submissions should include the scholar's CV and a
>> proposal limited to a maximum of 1,500 words. Grant request
>> submissions must include the administering institution's name and
>> address, the name of the department/program chair or director, a
>> detailed pro forma budget request, and the e-mail address of the
>> institution's administrative contact. US institutions should supply
>> federal tax identification number and nonprofit designation. Grant
>> requests require the signature of the department chair/program
>> director. Budget proposals can include up to 20 percent departmental
>> allocation. Please direct all submissions to
>> Judith2008 at rarewildflower.org.
>>
>> SUBMISSION AND PUBLICATION TIMELINE
>> November 30, 2007: Proposal submission deadline.
>> December 31, 2007: Papers selected and applicants notified by e-mail.
>> December 31, 2007: Launch of Sword of Judith participants' website.
>> January 15, 2008: Grants remitted for university- and foundation-
>> administered grants.
>> March 21, 2008: Completed papers must be ready to be posted on the
>> conference website.
>> April 17-18, 2008: "The Sword of Judith" conference at The New York
>> Public Library.
>> August 31, 2008: All final entries for publication must be submitted
>> by e-mail. On receipt of the publishable final paper, the remaining
>> 30 percent of the research/production stipend remitted. Work
>> submitted after August 31 will not be eligible for the final payment
>> or publication.
>> Fall 2008/Winter 2009: Publication of "The Sword of Judith"
>> conference volume.
>>
>> Michael Terry
>> Chief, Dorot Jewish Division
>> The New York Public Library
>> Phone: (212) 930-0603
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 

From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Nov 15 09:29:12 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:29:12 -0500
Subject: [ilds] MT. OLYMPUS SCANDAL
In-Reply-To: <20634593.1195136967253.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa
	.earthlink.net>
References: <20634593.1195136967253.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <53.C2.20239.7E18C374@gwout2>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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From richardpin at eircom.net  Thu Nov 15 10:41:39 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:41:39 -0000
Subject: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
References: <473B4EC2.2020309@gmail.com><007b01c82771$ede625d0$d194e9d5@rpinelaptop>
	<473C60D7.3000705@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012801c827b7$2b613b30$d194e9d5@rpinelaptop>

As I said, the film differs from the typescript (surprise, surprise) but 
knowing LD's first-hand experience of Palestine when he was trying to regain 
Nancy and Penelope, plus his awareness of the Palestinian situation in any 
case as a  diplomat, it's a tempting view of the difficulties of the 
ambivalent handover by the Brits of the mandated territories (remember, the 
Balfour Declaration and the Sykes-Picot agreement were both secret, 
apparently unknown to each other, and mutually exclusive in their political 
intentions, leading directly to the current situation which, ironically, a 
former Brit PM is trying to resolve).
The US version of the video of |Judith (titled 'Conflict' in the US) can be 
bought on Amazon in the US.
Best
RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Gifford" <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
To: "Richard Pine" <richardpin at eircom.net>; <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference


> Thanks Richard -- I've only seen about half of it as serialized.  I
> still haven't been able to buy the remainder of it...  I've only seen
> most of the film once on late night TV, but I haven't been able to rent
> of buy it anywhere.
>
> I haven't thought about it seriously, but I wonder how much of Judith
> could be read in relation to the Palestine plot in the _Quartet_?
> Perhaps anyone out there who has read it in full could comment.
>
> Best,
> James
>
> ps: I think having the text published is an excellent idea.
>
> Richard Pine wrote:
>> It isn't a short story - it's a novella - 134 pp. typescript - from which
>> the film (Sophia Loren) deviates significantly. LD established quite a
>> friendship with Loren during the filming. The DSC hopes to publish the
>> story/novella next year. The politics of the Palestinian mandated 
>> territory
>> are interesting, given what is going on today.
>> RP
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "James Gifford" <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>> To: "ILDS Listserv" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 7:38 PM
>> Subject: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
>>
>>
>>> Perhaps some LD scholars are interested in digging up his short story on
>>> Judith published serially or his film treatment?  It's not the best
>>> film, but it's political.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> James
>>>
>>> ---------------
>>>
>>> The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
>>>
>>> Proposals are invited for papers examining any aspect of the book or
>>> figure of Judith, for a multidisciplinary conference to be held at
>>> The New York Public Library, April 17-18, 2008. Contributions are
>>> welcome from scholars working in any field, including but not limited
>>> to Bible, ancient history and archaeology, classics and semitics,
>>> fine and performing art history, medieval and modern literature in
>>> all languages, and gender studies. Papers that address the Judith
>>> narrative in its larger contexts are particularly welcome. A private
>>> website and wiki technology will enable scholars to circulate their
>>> work-in-progress before and after the conference. Research grants are
>>> available and all travel expenses and accommodations will be paid for
>>> invited participants.
>>>
>>> The conference is part of the Judith Project, an effort to loosen the
>>> grip of disciplinarity through collaborative scholarly practice.
>>> Organized around the biblical/apocryphal text and figure of Judith,
>>> the Judith Project will offer scholars the opportunity to pursue
>>> their own research agendas on Judith, as part of a year-long
>>> technology-enabled team effort. It will also leave, as an online
>>> legacy, a searchable corpus of digital images, accessible via the non-
>>> profit ARTstor library, and, as a central point of bibliographic
>>> reference, a comprehensive register, on The New York Public Library's
>>> website, of literature related to the Book of Judith and its
>>> iconography across the ages.
>>>
>>> Up to thirty university- or operating foundation-administered grants
>>> are available from the Judith Project's sponsor, the Brine Family
>>> Charitable Trust, offering from $6,000 to $11,000 for research on the
>>> Judith theme. Submissions should include the scholar's CV and a
>>> proposal limited to a maximum of 1,500 words. Grant request
>>> submissions must include the administering institution's name and
>>> address, the name of the department/program chair or director, a
>>> detailed pro forma budget request, and the e-mail address of the
>>> institution's administrative contact. US institutions should supply
>>> federal tax identification number and nonprofit designation. Grant
>>> requests require the signature of the department chair/program
>>> director. Budget proposals can include up to 20 percent departmental
>>> allocation. Please direct all submissions to
>>> Judith2008 at rarewildflower.org.
>>>
>>> SUBMISSION AND PUBLICATION TIMELINE
>>> November 30, 2007: Proposal submission deadline.
>>> December 31, 2007: Papers selected and applicants notified by e-mail.
>>> December 31, 2007: Launch of Sword of Judith participants' website.
>>> January 15, 2008: Grants remitted for university- and foundation-
>>> administered grants.
>>> March 21, 2008: Completed papers must be ready to be posted on the
>>> conference website.
>>> April 17-18, 2008: "The Sword of Judith" conference at The New York
>>> Public Library.
>>> August 31, 2008: All final entries for publication must be submitted
>>> by e-mail. On receipt of the publishable final paper, the remaining
>>> 30 percent of the research/production stipend remitted. Work
>>> submitted after August 31 will not be eligible for the final payment
>>> or publication.
>>> Fall 2008/Winter 2009: Publication of "The Sword of Judith"
>>> conference volume.
>>>
>>> Michael Terry
>>> Chief, Dorot Jewish Division
>>> The New York Public Library
>>> Phone: (212) 930-0603
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Nov 15 11:32:46 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:32:46 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Justine at auction
Message-ID: <66.F7.20239.CDE9C374@gwout2>


Our sale "Modern First Editions, Manuscripts & 
Autograph Letters, English & Continental 
Literature, History and Other Important Printed 
Books" (on 6 December 2007 at 11.00am & 2.00pm) 
will include some material which may be of interest to you.

Viewing beforehand on
Tuesday 4th December from 9.30am to 5.30pm
Wednesday 5th December from 9.30am to 8.00pm
Thursday 6th December from 9.30am to 10.30am


37.  Durrell (Lawrence) .Justine, first edition, 
signed & dated by the author on title (1985), 
original cloth, dust-jacket, price-clipped, 
browned at spine, frayed at corners and spine ends, 8vo, 1957.
Estimates ?400 - ?600

Yours Sincerely
Bloomsbury Auctions


***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************




From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Thu Nov 15 12:27:41 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:27:41 +0100
Subject: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
In-Reply-To: <012801c827b7$2b613b30$d194e9d5@rpinelaptop>
References: <473B4EC2.2020309@gmail.com><007b01c82771$ede625d0$d194e9d5@rpinelaptop>	<473C60D7.3000705@gmail.com>
	<012801c827b7$2b613b30$d194e9d5@rpinelaptop>
Message-ID: <473CABBD.4070301@interdesign.fr>

To any intelligent, and clear seeing mind it is 
obvoius that the "brits" are responsible, and have 
been since then, for today's situation in 
Palestine and Israel. LD obviously understood this 
but was too involved in his situation with Nancy 
and Penelope to be able to see "it" too clearly.
Behind every great creator there is an often 
silent but great woman or man (it is not a one way 
street).
Sorry to see so much misunderstanding of this in 
recent posts.
This is not intended to be provocative: just down 
to earth.
Best Regards
Marc

Richard Pine wrote:

> As I said, the film differs from the typescript (surprise, surprise) but 
> knowing LD's first-hand experience of Palestine when he was trying to regain 
> Nancy and Penelope, plus his awareness of the Palestinian situation in any 
> case as a  diplomat, it's a tempting view of the difficulties of the 
> ambivalent handover by the Brits of the mandated territories (remember, the 
> Balfour Declaration and the Sykes-Picot agreement were both secret, 
> apparently unknown to each other, and mutually exclusive in their political 
> intentions, leading directly to the current situation which, ironically, a 
> former Brit PM is trying to resolve).
> The US version of the video of |Judith (titled 'Conflict' in the US) can be 
> bought on Amazon in the US.
> Best
> RP
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "James Gifford" <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
> To: "Richard Pine" <richardpin at eircom.net>; <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 3:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
> 
> 
> 
>>Thanks Richard -- I've only seen about half of it as serialized.  I
>>still haven't been able to buy the remainder of it...  I've only seen
>>most of the film once on late night TV, but I haven't been able to rent
>>of buy it anywhere.
>>
>>I haven't thought about it seriously, but I wonder how much of Judith
>>could be read in relation to the Palestine plot in the _Quartet_?
>>Perhaps anyone out there who has read it in full could comment.
>>
>>Best,
>>James
>>
>>ps: I think having the text published is an excellent idea.
>>
>>Richard Pine wrote:
>>
>>>It isn't a short story - it's a novella - 134 pp. typescript - from which
>>>the film (Sophia Loren) deviates significantly. LD established quite a
>>>friendship with Loren during the filming. The DSC hopes to publish the
>>>story/novella next year. The politics of the Palestinian mandated 
>>>territory
>>>are interesting, given what is going on today.
>>>RP
>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>From: "James Gifford" <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>>>To: "ILDS Listserv" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 7:38 PM
>>>Subject: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Perhaps some LD scholars are interested in digging up his short story on
>>>>Judith published serially or his film treatment?  It's not the best
>>>>film, but it's political.
>>>>
>>>>Best,
>>>>James
>>>>
>>>>---------------
>>>>
>>>>The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
>>>>
>>>>Proposals are invited for papers examining any aspect of the book or
>>>>figure of Judith, for a multidisciplinary conference to be held at
>>>>The New York Public Library, April 17-18, 2008. Contributions are
>>>>welcome from scholars working in any field, including but not limited
>>>>to Bible, ancient history and archaeology, classics and semitics,
>>>>fine and performing art history, medieval and modern literature in
>>>>all languages, and gender studies. Papers that address the Judith
>>>>narrative in its larger contexts are particularly welcome. A private
>>>>website and wiki technology will enable scholars to circulate their
>>>>work-in-progress before and after the conference. Research grants are
>>>>available and all travel expenses and accommodations will be paid for
>>>>invited participants.
>>>>
>>>>The conference is part of the Judith Project, an effort to loosen the
>>>>grip of disciplinarity through collaborative scholarly practice.
>>>>Organized around the biblical/apocryphal text and figure of Judith,
>>>>the Judith Project will offer scholars the opportunity to pursue
>>>>their own research agendas on Judith, as part of a year-long
>>>>technology-enabled team effort. It will also leave, as an online
>>>>legacy, a searchable corpus of digital images, accessible via the non-
>>>>profit ARTstor library, and, as a central point of bibliographic
>>>>reference, a comprehensive register, on The New York Public Library's
>>>>website, of literature related to the Book of Judith and its
>>>>iconography across the ages.
>>>>
>>>>Up to thirty university- or operating foundation-administered grants
>>>>are available from the Judith Project's sponsor, the Brine Family
>>>>Charitable Trust, offering from $6,000 to $11,000 for research on the
>>>>Judith theme. Submissions should include the scholar's CV and a
>>>>proposal limited to a maximum of 1,500 words. Grant request
>>>>submissions must include the administering institution's name and
>>>>address, the name of the department/program chair or director, a
>>>>detailed pro forma budget request, and the e-mail address of the
>>>>institution's administrative contact. US institutions should supply
>>>>federal tax identification number and nonprofit designation. Grant
>>>>requests require the signature of the department chair/program
>>>>director. Budget proposals can include up to 20 percent departmental
>>>>allocation. Please direct all submissions to
>>>>Judith2008 at rarewildflower.org.
>>>>
>>>>SUBMISSION AND PUBLICATION TIMELINE
>>>>November 30, 2007: Proposal submission deadline.
>>>>December 31, 2007: Papers selected and applicants notified by e-mail.
>>>>December 31, 2007: Launch of Sword of Judith participants' website.
>>>>January 15, 2008: Grants remitted for university- and foundation-
>>>>administered grants.
>>>>March 21, 2008: Completed papers must be ready to be posted on the
>>>>conference website.
>>>>April 17-18, 2008: "The Sword of Judith" conference at The New York
>>>>Public Library.
>>>>August 31, 2008: All final entries for publication must be submitted
>>>>by e-mail. On receipt of the publishable final paper, the remaining
>>>>30 percent of the research/production stipend remitted. Work
>>>>submitted after August 31 will not be eligible for the final payment
>>>>or publication.
>>>>Fall 2008/Winter 2009: Publication of "The Sword of Judith"
>>>>conference volume.
>>>>
>>>>Michael Terry
>>>>Chief, Dorot Jewish Division
>>>>The New York Public Library
>>>>Phone: (212) 930-0603
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ILDS mailing list
>>>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>ILDS mailing list
>>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ILDS mailing list
>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 15 14:00:48 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:00:48 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
Message-ID: <16498718.1195164048682.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

The Sword of Judith conference is undoubtedly Biblical and Medieval in orientation (see the Book of Judith in the Septuagint and the OE Judith, where Judith beheads Holofernes) and has nothing to do with the situation in Palestine post-Balfour Declaration (1917).  On the other hand, since we're entering the area of Durrell's politics in the Middle East, what Marc Piel has to say below is probably true, particularly with the clear vision of hindsight.  I view the Balfour Declaration as a big mistake, along with other foreign intrusions into the Middle East, to wit, the egregious and catastrophic American involvement in Iraq.  I saw Daniel Mann's Judith in 1965, while sitting in an outdoor theater in Phu Bai, South Vietnam (that war being another big mistake), and remember next to nothing about the film, except the beautiful Sophia Loren, who probably provided sufficient reason for Durrell to get involved in the undertaking.

BR

-----Original Message-----
>From: Marc Piel <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
>Sent: Nov 15, 2007 12:27 PM
>To: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
>
>To any intelligent, and clear seeing mind it is 
>obvoius that the "brits" are responsible, and have 
>been since then, for today's situation in 
>Palestine and Israel. LD obviously understood this 
>but was too involved in his situation with Nancy 
>and Penelope to be able to see "it" too clearly.
>Behind every great creator there is an often 
>silent but great woman or man (it is not a one way 
>street).
>Sorry to see so much misunderstanding of this in 
>recent posts.
>This is not intended to be provocative: just down 
>to earth.
>Best Regards
>Marc
>
>Richard Pine wrote:
>
>> As I said, the film differs from the typescript (surprise, surprise) but 
>> knowing LD's first-hand experience of Palestine when he was trying to regain 
>> Nancy and Penelope, plus his awareness of the Palestinian situation in any 
>> case as a  diplomat, it's a tempting view of the difficulties of the 
>> ambivalent handover by the Brits of the mandated territories (remember, the 
>> Balfour Declaration and the Sykes-Picot agreement were both secret, 
>> apparently unknown to each other, and mutually exclusive in their political 
>> intentions, leading directly to the current situation which, ironically, a 
>> former Brit PM is trying to resolve).
>> The US version of the video of |Judith (titled 'Conflict' in the US) can be 
>> bought on Amazon in the US.
>> Best
>> RP
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "James Gifford" <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>> To: "Richard Pine" <richardpin at eircom.net>; <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 3:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference


From leadale at mts.net  Thu Nov 15 18:48:54 2007
From: leadale at mts.net (Lea Stogdale)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:48:54 -0600
Subject: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
Message-ID: <01C827C8.F05DCA00.leadale@mts.net>

To Whom May be Interested:
Is it possible that this film could be shown at the Paris conference 
followed by a discussion?
I'm not sure that it fits the theme but creative rationalization would 
solve that problem.
The topic sounds so fascinating and, with the neuronal lubrication of some 
excellent French wine, I'm sure that the discussion would be lively and 
illuminating.
Lea


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Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1133 - Release Date: 11/15/07 
8:57 PM


From richardpin at eircom.net  Fri Nov 16 08:22:48 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:22:48 -0000
Subject: [ilds] The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
References: <16498718.1195164048682.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <01af01c8286c$f0116530$634f1359@rpinelaptop>

The Balfour Declaration was indeed a mistake - in fact, a serendipitous 
mistake. Chaim Weizmann, who was a professional chemist, had invented a new 
high explosive during WW1, at a time when the British were badly in need of 
such. Weizmann offered it, was rejected, so he advised the British govt that 
he would offer it instead to the Germans. Result: Balfour Declaration. The 
formlua was in fact never used.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:00 PM
Subject: [ilds] The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference


> The Sword of Judith conference is undoubtedly Biblical and Medieval in 
> orientation (see the Book of Judith in the Septuagint and the OE Judith, 
> where Judith beheads Holofernes) and has nothing to do with the situation 
> in Palestine post-Balfour Declaration (1917).  On the other hand, since 
> we're entering the area of Durrell's politics in the Middle East, what 
> Marc Piel has to say below is probably true, particularly with the clear 
> vision of hindsight.  I view the Balfour Declaration as a big mistake, 
> along with other foreign intrusions into the Middle East, to wit, the 
> egregious and catastrophic American involvement in Iraq.  I saw Daniel 
> Mann's Judith in 1965, while sitting in an outdoor theater in Phu Bai, 
> South Vietnam (that war being another big mistake), and remember next to 
> nothing about the film, except the beautiful Sophia Loren, who probably 
> provided sufficient reason for Durrell to get involved in the undertaking.
>
> BR
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Marc Piel <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
>>Sent: Nov 15, 2007 12:27 PM
>>To: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary 
>>Conference
>>
>>To any intelligent, and clear seeing mind it is
>>obvoius that the "brits" are responsible, and have
>>been since then, for today's situation in
>>Palestine and Israel. LD obviously understood this
>>but was too involved in his situation with Nancy
>>and Penelope to be able to see "it" too clearly.
>>Behind every great creator there is an often
>>silent but great woman or man (it is not a one way
>>street).
>>Sorry to see so much misunderstanding of this in
>>recent posts.
>>This is not intended to be provocative: just down
>>to earth.
>>Best Regards
>>Marc
>>
>>Richard Pine wrote:
>>
>>> As I said, the film differs from the typescript (surprise, surprise) but
>>> knowing LD's first-hand experience of Palestine when he was trying to 
>>> regain
>>> Nancy and Penelope, plus his awareness of the Palestinian situation in 
>>> any
>>> case as a  diplomat, it's a tempting view of the difficulties of the
>>> ambivalent handover by the Brits of the mandated territories (remember, 
>>> the
>>> Balfour Declaration and the Sykes-Picot agreement were both secret,
>>> apparently unknown to each other, and mutually exclusive in their 
>>> political
>>> intentions, leading directly to the current situation which, ironically, 
>>> a
>>> former Brit PM is trying to resolve).
>>> The US version of the video of |Judith (titled 'Conflict' in the US) can 
>>> be
>>> bought on Amazon in the US.
>>> Best
>>> RP
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "James Gifford" <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Richard Pine" <richardpin at eircom.net>; <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 3:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary 
>>> Conference
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 10:15:29 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:15:29 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
Message-ID: <13790259.1195236930226.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

The story about Weizmann blackmailing the British government may be apocryphal, if based on Lloyd George's memoirs.  And, to be frank, smacks of anti-Semitism, which, to make myself absolutely clear, I'm not charging Richard Pine with, rather the ultimate source of the story.  David Fromkin, author of A Peace to End All Peace:  The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East (Avon, 1989), says, "Years after the war, Lloyd George -- in writing his memoirs -- invented the story that he had given the Balfour Declaration in gratitude for Weizmann's invention [of acetone used in making explosives].  Weizmann's important invention was real, but Lloyd George's story was a work of fiction" (p. 285).

Nevertheless, in terms of political intrigue and the way governmental policies get formed, the story would probably have appealed to Durrell.  What interests me is how Durrell's script of Judith reflects his political views about the formation of the state of Israel.  As I said before, I don't recall the plot of the movie, set in Israel in 1947, but since it came out in 1965, a time of strong pro-Israeli sentiments in the U.S., there was undoubtedly little room for Durrell's beloved irony.


BR


-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>Sent: Nov 16, 2007 8:22 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
>
>The Balfour Declaration was indeed a mistake - in fact, a serendipitous 
>mistake. Chaim Weizmann, who was a professional chemist, had invented a new 
>high explosive during WW1, at a time when the British were badly in need of 
>such. Weizmann offered it, was rejected, so he advised the British govt that 
>he would offer it instead to the Germans. Result: Balfour Declaration. The 
>formlua was in fact never used.
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:00 PM
>Subject: [ilds] The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
>
>
>> The Sword of Judith conference is undoubtedly Biblical and Medieval in 
>> orientation (see the Book of Judith in the Septuagint and the OE Judith, 
>> where Judith beheads Holofernes) and has nothing to do with the situation 
>> in Palestine post-Balfour Declaration (1917).  On the other hand, since 
>> we're entering the area of Durrell's politics in the Middle East, what 
>> Marc Piel has to say below is probably true, particularly with the clear 
>> vision of hindsight.  I view the Balfour Declaration as a big mistake, 
>> along with other foreign intrusions into the Middle East, to wit, the 
>> egregious and catastrophic American involvement in Iraq.  I saw Daniel 
>> Mann's Judith in 1965, while sitting in an outdoor theater in Phu Bai, 
>> South Vietnam (that war being another big mistake), and remember next to 
>> nothing about the film, except the beautiful Sophia Loren, who probably 
>> provided sufficient reason for Durrell to get involved in the undertaking.
>>
>> BR
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Marc Piel <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
>>>Sent: Nov 15, 2007 12:27 PM
>>>To: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>Subject: Re: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary 
>>>Conference
>>>
>>>To any intelligent, and clear seeing mind it is
>>>obvoius that the "brits" are responsible, and have
>>>been since then, for today's situation in
>>>Palestine and Israel. LD obviously understood this
>>>but was too involved in his situation with Nancy
>>>and Penelope to be able to see "it" too clearly.
>>>Behind every great creator there is an often
>>>silent but great woman or man (it is not a one way
>>>street).
>>>Sorry to see so much misunderstanding of this in
>>>recent posts.
>>>This is not intended to be provocative: just down
>>>to earth.
>>>Best Regards
>>>Marc
>>>
>>>Richard Pine wrote:
>>>
>>>> As I said, the film differs from the typescript (surprise, surprise) but
>>>> knowing LD's first-hand experience of Palestine when he was trying to 
>>>> regain
>>>> Nancy and Penelope, plus his awareness of the Palestinian situation in 
>>>> any
>>>> case as a  diplomat, it's a tempting view of the difficulties of the
>>>> ambivalent handover by the Brits of the mandated territories (remember, 
>>>> the
>>>> Balfour Declaration and the Sykes-Picot agreement were both secret,
>>>> apparently unknown to each other, and mutually exclusive in their 
>>>> political
>>>> intentions, leading directly to the current situation which, ironically, 
>>>> a
>>>> former Brit PM is trying to resolve).
>>>> The US version of the video of |Judith (titled 'Conflict' in the US) can 
>>>> be
>>>> bought on Amazon in the US.
>>>> Best
>>>> RP



From Smithchamberlin at aol.com  Fri Nov 16 14:43:47 2007
From: Smithchamberlin at aol.com (Smithchamberlin at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:43:47 EST
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 8
Message-ID: <d6b.133a58c0.346f7723@aol.com>

 
The plot of the story is quite unbelievable as it is presented on the  screen 
but Daniel Mann (who was something of a hack, competent but hardly  
imaginative).  The acting is also competent.  However, the beautiful,  healthy, 
voluptuous Loren as a recent survivor of the camps in Europe is beyond  belief.
        Brewster
 
In a message dated 11/16/2007 4:47:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca writes:

Message:  5
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:15:29 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
From: Bruce Redwine  <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
Subject: [ilds] Balfour  Declaration
To: Durrell list  <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Message-ID:
<13790259.1195236930226.JavaMail.root at elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

The story about  Weizmann blackmailing the British government may be 
apocryphal, if based on  Lloyd George's memoirs.  And, to be frank, smacks of 
anti-Semitism,  which, to make myself absolutely clear, I'm not charging Richard Pine 
with,  rather the ultimate source of the story.  David Fromkin, author of A  
Peace to End All Peace:  The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation  of 
the Modern Middle East (Avon, 1989), says, "Years after the war, Lloyd  George 
-- in writing his memoirs -- invented the story that he had given the  Balfour 
Declaration in gratitude for Weizmann's invention [of acetone used in  making 
explosives].  Weizmann's important invention was real, but Lloyd  George's 
story was a work of fiction" (p. 285).

Nevertheless, in terms  of political intrigue and the way governmental 
policies get formed, the story  would probably have appealed to Durrell.  What 
interests me is how  Durrell's script of Judith reflects his political views about 
the formation of  the state of Israel.  As I said before, I don't recall the 
plot of the  movie, set in Israel in 1947, but since it came out in 1965, a 
time of strong  pro-Israeli sentiments in the U.S., there was undoubtedly little 
room for  Durrell's beloved irony.


BR







************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 15:11:39 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:11:39 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Balfour Declaration:  Correction
Message-ID: <9231238.1195254699624.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Correction.  Read, "set in Palestine in 1947."  Israel became a state in 1948.


BR

-----Original Message-----
>From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Sent: Nov 16, 2007 10:15 AM
>To: Durrell list <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Subject: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>
>The story about Weizmann blackmailing the British government may be apocryphal, if based on Lloyd George's memoirs.  And, to be frank, smacks of anti-Semitism, which, to make myself absolutely clear, I'm not charging Richard Pine with, rather the ultimate source of the story.  David Fromkin, author of A Peace to End All Peace:  The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East (Avon, 1989), says, "Years after the war, Lloyd George -- in writing his memoirs -- invented the story that he had given the Balfour Declaration in gratitude for Weizmann's invention [of acetone used in making explosives].  Weizmann's important invention was real, but Lloyd George's story was a work of fiction" (p. 285).
>
>Nevertheless, in terms of political intrigue and the way governmental policies get formed, the story would probably have appealed to Durrell.  What interests me is how Durrell's script of Judith reflects his political views about the formation of the state of Israel.  As I said before, I don't recall the plot of the movie, set in Israel in 1947, but since it came out in 1965, a time of strong pro-Israeli sentiments in the U.S., there was undoubtedly little room for Durrell's beloved irony.
>
>
>BR



From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Fri Nov 16 15:31:25 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:31:25 +0000
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 8
In-Reply-To: <d6b.133a58c0.346f7723@aol.com>
Message-ID: <0C550615-949C-11DC-B776-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

It would be interesting to know in what way, if in any significant way, 
Durrell's story differs from the film.  See link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_%28film%29

:Michael




On Friday, November 16, 2007, at 10:43  pm, Smithchamberlin at aol.com 
wrote:

> The plot of the story is quite unbelievable as it is presented on the 
> screen but Daniel Mann (who was something of a hack, competent but 
> hardly imaginative).? The acting is also competent.? However, the 
> beautiful, healthy, voluptuous Loren as a recent survivor of the camps 
> in Europe is beyond belief.
> ????????Brewster
> ?
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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 15:54:55 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:54:55 -0800
Subject: [ilds] Judith film & text
In-Reply-To: <0C550615-949C-11DC-B776-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <0C550615-949C-11DC-B776-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <473E2DCF.4060908@gmail.com>

I'd be interested in this too -- it could be very productive.  I don't 
have a full text of the story/novella, but perhaps I should get it, 
fast...  Can anyone who has read the full serialized novella give a 
comment or plot synopsis in contrast to the film?

I believe McMaster has the full set on microfilm, but that's a vague 
memory from when I was looking around for it.  John?  Do you feel up to 
doing some digging?

In particular, and I wonder if this is what Michael is after as well, 
this action genre (caught up in political dilemmas) isn't unusual in 
Durrell's works.  The anna mirabilis exactly 50 years ago didn't just 
stop at _Justine_, _Bitter Lemons_, and _Antrobus_.  We still have 
_White Eagles Over Serbia_ waiting for us...  I haven't looked at it 
since I first read it (quickly) on a ferry ride back in 1999 -- I really 
only recall the fly fishing.

In particular, I wonder if the _Judith_ text could broaden Michael's 
contention about the Hosnani family and the Menasce family.  It at least 
suggests, in tandem with _White Eagles_, that the political plot in the 
_Quartet_ was not meant to be a casual toss-off.

Best,
James

ps: I've seen many references in popular materials to _White Eagles_ 
being written in the style of LeCarre, but unless I'm wrong (??), 
LeCarre didn't start writing until a few years later...

Michael Haag wrote:
> It would be interesting to know in what way, if in any significant way, 
> Durrell's story differs from the film. See link.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_%28film%29
> 
> :Michael
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Friday, November 16, 2007, at 10:43 pm, Smithchamberlin at aol.com wrote:
> 
>     The plot of the story is quite unbelievable as it is presented on
>     the screen but Daniel Mann (who was something of a hack, competent
>     but hardly imaginative).  The acting is also competent.  However,
>     the beautiful, healthy, voluptuous Loren as a recent survivor of the
>     camps in Europe is beyond belief.
>             Brewster
>      
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Fri Nov 16 17:10:30 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 01:10:30 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Judith film & text
In-Reply-To: <473E2DCF.4060908@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E3D9E252-94A9-11DC-B776-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

In fact the British Library has Durrell's Judith and I am about to read 
it -- though I am slightly distracted at the moment and it might have 
to wait a few weeks.  But given the biographical background to the 
Palestine conspiracy in The Alexandria Quartet, the fact that Durrell's 
wife's grandfather and uncles were Zionists, that she was a Zionist, 
and that she had recently written a Zionist novel, I would be surprised 
if in his story Durrell took exception to the Balfour Declaration.

:Michael



On Friday, November 16, 2007, at 11:54  pm, James Gifford wrote:

>
> I'd be interested in this too -- it could be very productive.


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Nov 16 17:40:15 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:40:15 -0500
Subject: [ilds] =?iso-8859-1?q?Durrell_=26_Le_Carr=E9?=
In-Reply-To: <473E2DCF.4060908@gmail.com>
References: <0C550615-949C-11DC-B776-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<473E2DCF.4060908@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <473E467F.504@wfu.edu>

On 11/16/2007 6:54 PM, James Gifford wrote:
>
>   
>
>         ps: I've seen many references in popular materials to _White
>         Eagles_
>         being written in the style of LeCarre, but unless I'm wrong (??),
>         LeCarre didn't start writing until a few years later...
>
 From the dust jacket blurb for the 1995 Arcade printing:
>
>         With a mastery reminiscent of John Buchan, and which in turn
>         inspired John Le Carr?[. . . .]
>
See also Arcade's website:

            http://www.arcadepub.com/book/?GCOI=55970100041230


So is that claim tied to a remark in an interview?  Or is it cooked? 

Don may have pointed out the source of the connection in his paper on 
Durrell and the spy-thriller genre.  Perhaps he could remind me.  Or Bill?

Of course, without question, Le Carr?'s extraordinary gentleman, the 
"cunning virgin" George Smiley, would be a worthy inclusion into what 
Durrell in the early 1950s called "the Minor Mythologies."  Oh to read 
all of the Karla books again.  Or maybe I should just imagine a 30-ish 
Smiley sent down from his lecturing in Germany to listen in on events in 
Alexandria.

C&c.

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 18:05:44 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:05:44 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Judith film & text
Message-ID: <14563178.1195265144964.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Probably true.  I don't see Durrell rejecting the Balfour Declaration, but I note a certain cynicism in Durrell's portrait of the kibbutzim, those original Zionists.  Justine doesn't seem to be flourishing on a kibbutz, nor does Loren's Judith, if I'm not mistaken.



Bruce


-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Nov 16, 2007 5:10 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Judith film & text
>
>In fact the British Library has Durrell's Judith and I am about to read 
>it -- though I am slightly distracted at the moment and it might have 
>to wait a few weeks.  But given the biographical background to the 
>Palestine conspiracy in The Alexandria Quartet, the fact that Durrell's 
>wife's grandfather and uncles were Zionists, that she was a Zionist, 
>and that she had recently written a Zionist novel, I would be surprised 
>if in his story Durrell took exception to the Balfour Declaration.
>
>:Michael


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Nov 16 18:10:56 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:10:56 -0500
Subject: [ilds] =?iso-8859-1?q?Durrell_=26_Le_Carr=E9?=
In-Reply-To: <473E467F.504@wfu.edu>
References: <0C550615-949C-11DC-B776-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<473E2DCF.4060908@gmail.com> <473E467F.504@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <42.8F.27345.DAD4E374@gwout1>

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Nov 16 18:26:55 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:26:55 -0500
Subject: [ilds] =?iso-8859-1?q?Durrell_=26_Le_Carr=E9?=
In-Reply-To: <42.8F.27345.DAD4E374@gwout1>
References: <0C550615-949C-11DC-B776-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>	<473E2DCF.4060908@gmail.com>
	<473E467F.504@wfu.edu> <42.8F.27345.DAD4E374@gwout1>
Message-ID: <473E516F.4000009@wfu.edu>

On 11/16/2007 9:10 PM, william godshalk wrote:
> I have only read it once, and I found it quite boring. I have read 
> most of LeCarre's novels, and I don't see any similarities between 
> LeCarre's sombre narratives and Durrell's rather sleepy novel.
I agree, Bill.  Just take the club-speak / "old hand" talk at the 
opening of /White Eagles/.  That business seems pretty rickety, almost 
to the point of parody.  If that had been Le Carre's book, the dialogue 
would have been more subtly-inflected, more sombre, apparently banal, 
but underneath it all, urgent Circus speak.   (I am thinking about 
Smiley's cohorts and their oft-repeated inquiries, dropped with casual 
menace at the crucial moment, "And how is Ann, George?")

But someone could show me something I did not find.

CLS

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Nov 16 18:37:35 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:37:35 -0500
Subject: [ilds] =?iso-8859-1?q?Durrell_=26_Le_Carr=E9?=
In-Reply-To: <473E516F.4000009@wfu.edu>
References: <0C550615-949C-11DC-B776-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<473E2DCF.4060908@gmail.com> <473E467F.504@wfu.edu>
	<42.8F.27345.DAD4E374@gwout1> <473E516F.4000009@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <A8.92.27345.CE35E374@gwout1>

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Nov 16 21:53:45 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 00:53:45 -0500
Subject: [ilds] The Poetry Of Lawrence Durrell
Message-ID: <473E81E9.1080407@wfu.edu>

http://www.openlibrary.org/details/poetryoflawrence011139mbp

Title    The Poetry Of Lawrence Durrell
Creator    Lawrence Durrell
Publisher    E. P. Dutton & Co., Inc.
Date    1962

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************



From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 22:13:13 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:13:13 -0800
Subject: [ilds] The Poetry Of Lawrence Durrell
In-Reply-To: <473E81E9.1080407@wfu.edu>
References: <473E81E9.1080407@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <473E8679.4090002@gmail.com>

Now that's handy!  I know Faber released the Collected Poems edited by 
Brigham under their subscription service (Faber Poets), but I didn't 
know LD's own first version was available.

If memory serves me correctly, this is the edition he compiled himself, 
often revising poems, while wrapping up the Quartet.  Having two 
editions available in a digital state certainly makes it easier to track 
changes.  Now if only there were a way to post all of the original 
publications in periodicals...  Hmmm...

Thanks!
Jamie

ps: I have about 40 books from the library in front of me at the moment, 
all anthologizing LD's poetry, so you timed this perfectly!

slighcl wrote:
> http://www.openlibrary.org/details/poetryoflawrence011139mbp
> 
> Title    The Poetry Of Lawrence Durrell
> Creator    Lawrence Durrell
> Publisher    E. P. Dutton & Co., Inc.
> Date    1962
> 

From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Nov 16 22:18:36 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 01:18:36 -0500
Subject: [ilds] The Poetry Of Lawrence Durrell
In-Reply-To: <473E8679.4090002@gmail.com>
References: <473E81E9.1080407@wfu.edu> <473E8679.4090002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <473E87BC.4000205@wfu.edu>

On 11/17/2007 1:13 AM, James Gifford wrote:
> Now that's handy!  
>   
> ps: I have about 40 books from the library in front of me at the moment, 
> all anthologizing LD's poetry, so you timed this perfectly!
Well the timing is certainly curious.  Happy to have helped!

C&c.

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************



From richardpin at eircom.net  Sat Nov 17 02:19:51 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:19:51 -0000
Subject: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
References: <13790259.1195236930226.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00a201c82904$48753cf0$af8fe9d5@rpinelaptop>

I know nothing of LLloyd George's memoirs or the Fromkin book. My source is 
a school chum of Michael Weizmann, Chaim's son, at Rugby, 1932.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:15 PM
Subject: [ilds] Balfour Declaration


> The story about Weizmann blackmailing the British government may be 
> apocryphal, if based on Lloyd George's memoirs.  And, to be frank, smacks 
> of anti-Semitism, which, to make myself absolutely clear, I'm not charging 
> Richard Pine with, rather the ultimate source of the story.  David 
> Fromkin, author of A Peace to End All Peace:  The Fall of the Ottoman 
> Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East (Avon, 1989), says, 
> "Years after the war, Lloyd George -- in writing his memoirs -- invented 
> the story that he had given the Balfour Declaration in gratitude for 
> Weizmann's invention [of acetone used in making explosives].  Weizmann's 
> important invention was real, but Lloyd George's story was a work of 
> fiction" (p. 285).
>
> Nevertheless, in terms of political intrigue and the way governmental 
> policies get formed, the story would probably have appealed to Durrell. 
> What interests me is how Durrell's script of Judith reflects his political 
> views about the formation of the state of Israel.  As I said before, I 
> don't recall the plot of the movie, set in Israel in 1947, but since it 
> came out in 1965, a time of strong pro-Israeli sentiments in the U.S., 
> there was undoubtedly little room for Durrell's beloved irony.
>
>
> BR
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>>Sent: Nov 16, 2007 8:22 AM
>>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
>>
>>The Balfour Declaration was indeed a mistake - in fact, a serendipitous
>>mistake. Chaim Weizmann, who was a professional chemist, had invented a 
>>new
>>high explosive during WW1, at a time when the British were badly in need 
>>of
>>such. Weizmann offered it, was rejected, so he advised the British govt 
>>that
>>he would offer it instead to the Germans. Result: Balfour Declaration. The
>>formlua was in fact never used.
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:00 PM
>>Subject: [ilds] The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
>>
>>
>>> The Sword of Judith conference is undoubtedly Biblical and Medieval in
>>> orientation (see the Book of Judith in the Septuagint and the OE Judith,
>>> where Judith beheads Holofernes) and has nothing to do with the 
>>> situation
>>> in Palestine post-Balfour Declaration (1917).  On the other hand, since
>>> we're entering the area of Durrell's politics in the Middle East, what
>>> Marc Piel has to say below is probably true, particularly with the clear
>>> vision of hindsight.  I view the Balfour Declaration as a big mistake,
>>> along with other foreign intrusions into the Middle East, to wit, the
>>> egregious and catastrophic American involvement in Iraq.  I saw Daniel
>>> Mann's Judith in 1965, while sitting in an outdoor theater in Phu Bai,
>>> South Vietnam (that war being another big mistake), and remember next to
>>> nothing about the film, except the beautiful Sophia Loren, who probably
>>> provided sufficient reason for Durrell to get involved in the 
>>> undertaking.
>>>
>>> BR
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Marc Piel <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
>>>>Sent: Nov 15, 2007 12:27 PM
>>>>To: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>Subject: Re: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary
>>>>Conference
>>>>
>>>>To any intelligent, and clear seeing mind it is
>>>>obvoius that the "brits" are responsible, and have
>>>>been since then, for today's situation in
>>>>Palestine and Israel. LD obviously understood this
>>>>but was too involved in his situation with Nancy
>>>>and Penelope to be able to see "it" too clearly.
>>>>Behind every great creator there is an often
>>>>silent but great woman or man (it is not a one way
>>>>street).
>>>>Sorry to see so much misunderstanding of this in
>>>>recent posts.
>>>>This is not intended to be provocative: just down
>>>>to earth.
>>>>Best Regards
>>>>Marc
>>>>
>>>>Richard Pine wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As I said, the film differs from the typescript (surprise, surprise) 
>>>>> but
>>>>> knowing LD's first-hand experience of Palestine when he was trying to
>>>>> regain
>>>>> Nancy and Penelope, plus his awareness of the Palestinian situation in
>>>>> any
>>>>> case as a  diplomat, it's a tempting view of the difficulties of the
>>>>> ambivalent handover by the Brits of the mandated territories 
>>>>> (remember,
>>>>> the
>>>>> Balfour Declaration and the Sykes-Picot agreement were both secret,
>>>>> apparently unknown to each other, and mutually exclusive in their
>>>>> political
>>>>> intentions, leading directly to the current situation which, 
>>>>> ironically,
>>>>> a
>>>>> former Brit PM is trying to resolve).
>>>>> The US version of the video of |Judith (titled 'Conflict' in the US) 
>>>>> can
>>>>> be
>>>>> bought on Amazon in the US.
>>>>> Best
>>>>> RP
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 17 07:49:28 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:49:28 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Acetone
Message-ID: <31410311.1195314568902.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I didn't fully and accurately represent Dr. Chaim Weizmann's discovery, as Fromkin describes it:  "a process to extract acetone from maize -- acetone being a vital ingredient in the manufacture of explosives" (p. 285).

BR

-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>Sent: Nov 17, 2007 7:05 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>
>Bruce, thanks for the tipoff about the Fromkin book - most useful, even if 
>he is wrong about the acetone.
>RP
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:15 PM
>Subject: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>
>
>> The story about Weizmann blackmailing the British government may be 
>> apocryphal, if based on Lloyd George's memoirs.  And, to be frank, smacks 
>> of anti-Semitism, which, to make myself absolutely clear, I'm not charging 
>> Richard Pine with, rather the ultimate source of the story.  David 
>> Fromkin, author of A Peace to End All Peace:  The Fall of the Ottoman 
>> Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East (Avon, 1989), says, 
>> "Years after the war, Lloyd George -- in writing his memoirs -- invented 
>> the story that he had given the Balfour Declaration in gratitude for 
>> Weizmann's invention [of acetone used in making explosives].  Weizmann's 
>> important invention was real, but Lloyd George's story was a work of 
>> fiction" (p. 285).


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 17 07:58:05 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:58:05 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Weizmann's blackmail
Message-ID: <8886738.1195315085813.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

It would be hard to accuse Michael Weizmann, son of Chaim, of anti-Semitism, assuming the story is accurate and I have my doubts about that.  The gossip still sounds vicious and anti-Semitic, at least to my ear, anyway.


Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>Sent: Nov 17, 2007 2:19 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>
>I know nothing of LLloyd George's memoirs or the Fromkin book. My source is 
>a school chum of Michael Weizmann, Chaim's son, at Rugby, 1932.
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:15 PM
>Subject: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>
>
>> The story about Weizmann blackmailing the British government may be 
>> apocryphal, if based on Lloyd George's memoirs.  And, to be frank, smacks 
>> of anti-Semitism, which, to make myself absolutely clear, I'm not charging 
>> Richard Pine with, rather the ultimate source of the story.  David 
>> Fromkin, author of A Peace to End All Peace:  The Fall of the Ottoman 
>> Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East (Avon, 1989), says, 
>> "Years after the war, Lloyd George -- in writing his memoirs -- invented 
>> the story that he had given the Balfour Declaration in gratitude for 
>> Weizmann's invention [of acetone used in making explosives].  Weizmann's 
>> important invention was real, but Lloyd George's story was a work of 
>> fiction" (p. 285).


From albigensian at hotmail.com  Sat Nov 17 07:20:39 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:20:39 -0600
Subject: [ilds] The Poetry Of Lawrence Durrell
In-Reply-To: <473E87BC.4000205@wfu.edu>
References: <473E81E9.1080407@wfu.edu> <473E8679.4090002@gmail.com>
	<473E87BC.4000205@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <BLU102-W43490FE1FBF5ACDF2D1D4AB07C0@phx.gbl>


LD's poetry! Finally getting some attention! I would like to remind everyone that the theme of the LD session at 2008's Louisville Conference on Literature and Culture since 1900 is "The Novelist as Poet." We have a nice panel lined up, but I do wish more people had responded. I think there are a number of us out there who find LD's poetry as interesting, if not more interesting and enjoyable than his novels. I sincerely hope others will continue this line of inquiry...

> Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 01:18:36 -0500
> From: slighcl at wfu.edu
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Subject: Re: [ilds] The Poetry Of Lawrence Durrell
> 
> On 11/17/2007 1:13 AM, James Gifford wrote:
> > Now that's handy!  
> >   
> > ps: I have about 40 books from the library in front of me at the moment, 
> > all anthologizing LD's poetry, so you timed this perfectly!
> Well the timing is certainly curious.  Happy to have helped!
> 
> C&c.
> 
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From richardpin at eircom.net  Sat Nov 17 07:05:02 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 15:05:02 -0000
Subject: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
References: <13790259.1195236930226.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <011401c8292b$3dd745f0$af8fe9d5@rpinelaptop>

Bruce, thanks for the tipoff about the Fromkin book - most useful, even if 
he is wrong about the acetone.
RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:15 PM
Subject: [ilds] Balfour Declaration


> The story about Weizmann blackmailing the British government may be 
> apocryphal, if based on Lloyd George's memoirs.  And, to be frank, smacks 
> of anti-Semitism, which, to make myself absolutely clear, I'm not charging 
> Richard Pine with, rather the ultimate source of the story.  David 
> Fromkin, author of A Peace to End All Peace:  The Fall of the Ottoman 
> Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East (Avon, 1989), says, 
> "Years after the war, Lloyd George -- in writing his memoirs -- invented 
> the story that he had given the Balfour Declaration in gratitude for 
> Weizmann's invention [of acetone used in making explosives].  Weizmann's 
> important invention was real, but Lloyd George's story was a work of 
> fiction" (p. 285).
>
> Nevertheless, in terms of political intrigue and the way governmental 
> policies get formed, the story would probably have appealed to Durrell. 
> What interests me is how Durrell's script of Judith reflects his political 
> views about the formation of the state of Israel.  As I said before, I 
> don't recall the plot of the movie, set in Israel in 1947, but since it 
> came out in 1965, a time of strong pro-Israeli sentiments in the U.S., 
> there was undoubtedly little room for Durrell's beloved irony.
>
>
> BR
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>>Sent: Nov 16, 2007 8:22 AM
>>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
>>
>>The Balfour Declaration was indeed a mistake - in fact, a serendipitous
>>mistake. Chaim Weizmann, who was a professional chemist, had invented a 
>>new
>>high explosive during WW1, at a time when the British were badly in need 
>>of
>>such. Weizmann offered it, was rejected, so he advised the British govt 
>>that
>>he would offer it instead to the Germans. Result: Balfour Declaration. The
>>formlua was in fact never used.
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:00 PM
>>Subject: [ilds] The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
>>
>>
>>> The Sword of Judith conference is undoubtedly Biblical and Medieval in
>>> orientation (see the Book of Judith in the Septuagint and the OE Judith,
>>> where Judith beheads Holofernes) and has nothing to do with the 
>>> situation
>>> in Palestine post-Balfour Declaration (1917).  On the other hand, since
>>> we're entering the area of Durrell's politics in the Middle East, what
>>> Marc Piel has to say below is probably true, particularly with the clear
>>> vision of hindsight.  I view the Balfour Declaration as a big mistake,
>>> along with other foreign intrusions into the Middle East, to wit, the
>>> egregious and catastrophic American involvement in Iraq.  I saw Daniel
>>> Mann's Judith in 1965, while sitting in an outdoor theater in Phu Bai,
>>> South Vietnam (that war being another big mistake), and remember next to
>>> nothing about the film, except the beautiful Sophia Loren, who probably
>>> provided sufficient reason for Durrell to get involved in the 
>>> undertaking.
>>>
>>> BR
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Marc Piel <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
>>>>Sent: Nov 15, 2007 12:27 PM
>>>>To: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>Subject: Re: [ilds] CFP: The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary
>>>>Conference
>>>>
>>>>To any intelligent, and clear seeing mind it is
>>>>obvoius that the "brits" are responsible, and have
>>>>been since then, for today's situation in
>>>>Palestine and Israel. LD obviously understood this
>>>>but was too involved in his situation with Nancy
>>>>and Penelope to be able to see "it" too clearly.
>>>>Behind every great creator there is an often
>>>>silent but great woman or man (it is not a one way
>>>>street).
>>>>Sorry to see so much misunderstanding of this in
>>>>recent posts.
>>>>This is not intended to be provocative: just down
>>>>to earth.
>>>>Best Regards
>>>>Marc
>>>>
>>>>Richard Pine wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As I said, the film differs from the typescript (surprise, surprise) 
>>>>> but
>>>>> knowing LD's first-hand experience of Palestine when he was trying to
>>>>> regain
>>>>> Nancy and Penelope, plus his awareness of the Palestinian situation in
>>>>> any
>>>>> case as a  diplomat, it's a tempting view of the difficulties of the
>>>>> ambivalent handover by the Brits of the mandated territories 
>>>>> (remember,
>>>>> the
>>>>> Balfour Declaration and the Sykes-Picot agreement were both secret,
>>>>> apparently unknown to each other, and mutually exclusive in their
>>>>> political
>>>>> intentions, leading directly to the current situation which, 
>>>>> ironically,
>>>>> a
>>>>> former Brit PM is trying to resolve).
>>>>> The US version of the video of |Judith (titled 'Conflict' in the US) 
>>>>> can
>>>>> be
>>>>> bought on Amazon in the US.
>>>>> Best
>>>>> RP
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 


From richardpin at eircom.net  Sat Nov 17 08:09:30 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:09:30 -0000
Subject: [ilds] Acetone
References: <31410311.1195314568902.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <013701c82934$3ef7bb00$af8fe9d5@rpinelaptop>

Yes, it is from maize - the acetone is the result of the residue after the 
beer-brewing process, as far as I understand it.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:49 PM
Subject: [ilds] Acetone


>I didn't fully and accurately represent Dr. Chaim Weizmann's discovery, as 
>Fromkin describes it:  "a process to extract acetone from maize -- acetone 
>being a vital ingredient in the manufacture of explosives" (p. 285).
>
> BR
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>>Sent: Nov 17, 2007 7:05 AM
>>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>>
>>Bruce, thanks for the tipoff about the Fromkin book - most useful, even if
>>he is wrong about the acetone.
>>RP
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:15 PM
>>Subject: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>>
>>
>>> The story about Weizmann blackmailing the British government may be
>>> apocryphal, if based on Lloyd George's memoirs.  And, to be frank, 
>>> smacks
>>> of anti-Semitism, which, to make myself absolutely clear, I'm not 
>>> charging
>>> Richard Pine with, rather the ultimate source of the story.  David
>>> Fromkin, author of A Peace to End All Peace:  The Fall of the Ottoman
>>> Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East (Avon, 1989), says,
>>> "Years after the war, Lloyd George -- in writing his memoirs -- invented
>>> the story that he had given the Balfour Declaration in gratitude for
>>> Weizmann's invention [of acetone used in making explosives].  Weizmann's
>>> important invention was real, but Lloyd George's story was a work of
>>> fiction" (p. 285).
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From richardpin at eircom.net  Sat Nov 17 08:10:41 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:10:41 -0000
Subject: [ilds] Weizmann's blackmail
References: <8886738.1195315085813.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <013a01c82934$6a2a89b0$af8fe9d5@rpinelaptop>

I cannot understand how Weizmann's use of the acetone threat, and Lloyd 
George's/Balfour's capitulation, can add up to anti-Semitism. Balfour 
himself was, if anything, anti-Arab.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:58 PM
Subject: [ilds] Weizmann's blackmail


> It would be hard to accuse Michael Weizmann, son of Chaim, of 
> anti-Semitism, assuming the story is accurate and I have my doubts about 
> that.  The gossip still sounds vicious and anti-Semitic, at least to my 
> ear, anyway.
>
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>>Sent: Nov 17, 2007 2:19 AM
>>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>>
>>I know nothing of LLloyd George's memoirs or the Fromkin book. My source 
>>is
>>a school chum of Michael Weizmann, Chaim's son, at Rugby, 1932.
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:15 PM
>>Subject: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>>
>>
>>> The story about Weizmann blackmailing the British government may be
>>> apocryphal, if based on Lloyd George's memoirs.  And, to be frank, 
>>> smacks
>>> of anti-Semitism, which, to make myself absolutely clear, I'm not 
>>> charging
>>> Richard Pine with, rather the ultimate source of the story.  David
>>> Fromkin, author of A Peace to End All Peace:  The Fall of the Ottoman
>>> Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East (Avon, 1989), says,
>>> "Years after the war, Lloyd George -- in writing his memoirs -- invented
>>> the story that he had given the Balfour Declaration in gratitude for
>>> Weizmann's invention [of acetone used in making explosives].  Weizmann's
>>> important invention was real, but Lloyd George's story was a work of
>>> fiction" (p. 285).
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From richardpin at eircom.net  Sat Nov 17 08:15:06 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:15:06 -0000
Subject: [ilds] Weizmann's blackmail
References: <8886738.1195315085813.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <014001c82935$076404e0$af8fe9d5@rpinelaptop>

PS : why would an 17-18 y.o. schoolboy tell his chum what his father had 
done, if it wasn't true? The only person he could have got the story from 
was his father, and why would Chaim invent such a story if there was 
another, political, explanation for the Balfour Declaration?
The main point remains the fact that the BD conflicts crucially with the 
Sykes-Picot plan to establish a Palestinian state, which, given 
anti-Semitism in Britain at that time, looks much more likely to be British 
intention. Cf. Maude Royden, The Problem of Palestine, 1938.
RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:58 PM
Subject: [ilds] Weizmann's blackmail


> It would be hard to accuse Michael Weizmann, son of Chaim, of 
> anti-Semitism, assuming the story is accurate and I have my doubts about 
> that.  The gossip still sounds vicious and anti-Semitic, at least to my 
> ear, anyway.
>
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>>Sent: Nov 17, 2007 2:19 AM
>>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>>
>>I know nothing of LLloyd George's memoirs or the Fromkin book. My source 
>>is
>>a school chum of Michael Weizmann, Chaim's son, at Rugby, 1932.
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:15 PM
>>Subject: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>>
>>
>>> The story about Weizmann blackmailing the British government may be
>>> apocryphal, if based on Lloyd George's memoirs.  And, to be frank, 
>>> smacks
>>> of anti-Semitism, which, to make myself absolutely clear, I'm not 
>>> charging
>>> Richard Pine with, rather the ultimate source of the story.  David
>>> Fromkin, author of A Peace to End All Peace:  The Fall of the Ottoman
>>> Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East (Avon, 1989), says,
>>> "Years after the war, Lloyd George -- in writing his memoirs -- invented
>>> the story that he had given the Balfour Declaration in gratitude for
>>> Weizmann's invention [of acetone used in making explosives].  Weizmann's
>>> important invention was real, but Lloyd George's story was a work of
>>> fiction" (p. 285).
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 13:44:52 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:44:52 -0800
Subject: [ilds] =?iso-8859-1?q?Durrell_=26_Le_Carr=E9?=
In-Reply-To: <A8.92.27345.CE35E374@gwout1>
References: <0C550615-949C-11DC-B776-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>	<473E2DCF.4060908@gmail.com>
	<473E467F.504@wfu.edu>	<42.8F.27345.DAD4E374@gwout1>
	<473E516F.4000009@wfu.edu> <A8.92.27345.CE35E374@gwout1>
Message-ID: <473F60D4.7060406@gmail.com>

Hey Bill,

I actually spent a winter teaching at a satellite campus for the 
military in the North, with a 660+ km round trip each way.  "David" Le 
Carre and the Arkangel Shax recordings kept me entertained the whole 
way.  I personally love when he impersonates the men from Langley...

Speaking of which, Durrell did record his own poetry a few times, as 
well as extended excerpts from his travel books and plays.  I wish there 
was a way to get those back into circulation.  Humm...  There was even a 
radio drama of _Bitter Lemons_ prepared, but it was never aired by the 
BBC due to the political situation.

As we discussed on the list a while ago, there is a fully dramatized 
*complete* reading available from radio archives, but it's ridiculously 
expensive.

Cheers,
Jamie

william godshalk wrote:
> Charlie,
> 
> Have you listened to David read his own novels? I don't think he ever 
> reads all of a novel, but what he does read is excellently done. I love 
> his American accent, especially when he gets schedule wrong.
> 
> WW
> 
> At 09:26 PM 11/16/2007, you wrote:
>> On 11/16/2007 9:10 PM, william godshalk wrote:
>>> I have only read it once, and I found it quite boring. I have read 
>>> most of LeCarre's novels, and I don't see any similarities between 
>>> LeCarre's sombre narratives and Durrell's rather sleepy novel.
>> I agree, Bill.  Just take the club-speak / "old hand" talk at the 
>> opening of /White Eagles/.  That business seems pretty rickety, almost 
>> to the point of parody.  If that had been Le Carre's book, the 
>> dialogue would have been more subtly-inflected, more sombre, 
>> apparently banal, but underneath it all, urgent Circus speak.   (I am 
>> thinking about Smiley's cohorts and their oft-repeated inquiries, 
>> dropped with casual menace at the crucial moment, "And how is Ann, 
>> George?")
>>
>> But someone could show me something I did not find.
>>
>> CLS
>>
>> -- 
>> **********************
>> Charles L. Sligh
>> Department of English
>> Wake Forest University
>> slighcl at wfu.edu <mailto:slighcl at wfu.edu>
>> **********************
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> ***************************************
> W. L. Godshalk           *
> Department of English         *
> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> 513-281-5927
> ***************************************
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 14:08:35 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 14:08:35 -0800
Subject: [ilds] Judith film & text
In-Reply-To: <E3D9E252-94A9-11DC-B776-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <E3D9E252-94A9-11DC-B776-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <473F6663.1030204@gmail.com>

 > given the biographical background to the Palestine
 > conspiracy in The Alexandria Quartet, the fact that
 > Durrell's wife's grandfather and uncles were
 > Zionists, that she was a Zionist, and that she had
 > recently written a Zionist novel, I would be surprised
 > if in his story Durrell took exception to the Balfour
 > Declaration.

I wonder, then, how we should read his comments on the Jews in _The 
Avignon Quintet_, which are not altogether flattering.  I agree with 
Michael, but I haven't though of this approach with regard to the 
_Quintet_.  I'd hesitate to call his 'asides' in the text anti-semitic, 
but if I recall correctly, they cast the future Israel as a payment to 
be extracted for the horrors of the Holocaust.  I'd have to go back to 
the book to check, so don't quote me on this, but I distinctly recall 
having the impression that the creation of Israel was being described as 
a mistake, though a necessary one.  I do recall being unsure of how to 
respond.

That political element wasn't what primarily attracted me in the 
Quintet, so I'll admit that I simply haven't thought of it too 
thoroughly, and I don't have my copy in Victoria with  me, but I wonder 
if anyone else noticed and questioned this in _Constance_ and 
_Sebastian_ in particular?

There is, of course, a world of change between the 1950s and the 1980s...

Best,
James

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 17 14:30:10 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 17:30:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [ilds] Weizmann Story and Anti-Semitism
Message-ID: <5035162.1195338610290.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

The story about Dr. Chaim Weizmann blackmailing the British government may be true (see Pine below, 11/16/07), in which case I think much less of Weizmann.  The very brief story, however, is also hearsay and has some classic characteristics of anti-Semitism.  Here's how I see them unfolding:

This is fact.  Dr. Chaim Weizmann was born in Russia (1874) and later became a British subject (1910).  He was a leader of the Zionist movement to reestablish a homeland for Jews in Palestine.  A chemist, he worked in the British Admiralty Laboratories 1916-17 and developed a method for extracting acetone and using it in the manufacture of explosives.  He also met Lloyd George, the PM, and Arthur Balfour, the Foreign Secretary, and promoted the Balfour Declaration (1917), the British commitment to the establishment a Jewish homeland in Palestine.  He had a son, Michael Oser, who served honorably in the RAF during WWII as a Flight Lieutenant and died over the Bay of Biscay.

Now, the story below portrays this same Chaim Weizmann as a money-grabbing scientist, who, improbable as it seems, is willing to betray his country and to commit treason, and to reveal his secret to the enemy, the Hun, in the midst of WWI -- all this in exchange for the establishment of the Jewish state.

The story reminds me of the Dreyfus Affair in France at the end of the 19th century.  So, what he have here is a characterization of the Jew as avaricious merchant, Jew as nefarious traitor, and Jew as religious sectarian.  And the fact that the alleged source of this story is Chaim's own son Michael adds another level of treachery, that is, Jews can be so despicable that even their own offspring may reject and betray them.

I am very suspicious of the story's authenticity.  I find it slanderous and have not found it mentioned elsewhere, e.g., Tom Segev's One Palestine, Complete:  Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate (Metropolitan, 2000), pp. 33-34.


BR


-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>Sent: Nov 17, 2007 8:10 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Weizmann's blackmail
>
>I cannot understand how Weizmann's use of the acetone threat, and Lloyd 
>George's/Balfour's capitulation, can add up to anti-Semitism. Balfour 
>himself was, if anything, anti-Arab.
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:58 PM
>Subject: [ilds] Weizmann's blackmail
>
>
>> It would be hard to accuse Michael Weizmann, son of Chaim, of 
>> anti-Semitism, assuming the story is accurate and I have my doubts about 
>> that.  The gossip still sounds vicious and anti-Semitic, at least to my 
>> ear, anyway.
>>
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>>>Sent: Nov 17, 2007 2:19 AM
>>>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>>>
>>>I know nothing of LLloyd George's memoirs or the Fromkin book. My source 
>>>is
>>>a school chum of Michael Weizmann, Chaim's son, at Rugby, 1932.
>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>>Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:15 PM
>>>Subject: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>>>
>>>
>>>> The story about Weizmann blackmailing the British government may be
>>>> apocryphal, if based on Lloyd George's memoirs.  And, to be frank, 
>>>> smacks
>>>> of anti-Semitism, which, to make myself absolutely clear, I'm not 
>>>> charging
>>>> Richard Pine with, rather the ultimate source of the story.  David
>>>> Fromkin, author of A Peace to End All Peace:  The Fall of the Ottoman
>>>> Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East (Avon, 1989), says,
>>>> "Years after the war, Lloyd George -- in writing his memoirs -- invented
>>>> the story that he had given the Balfour Declaration in gratitude for
>>>> Weizmann's invention [of acetone used in making explosives].  Weizmann's
>>>> important invention was real, but Lloyd George's story was a work of
>>>> fiction" (p. 285).
>>
-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>Sent: Nov 16, 2007 8:22 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary Conference
>
>The Balfour Declaration was indeed a mistake - in fact, a serendipitous 
>mistake. Chaim Weizmann, who was a professional chemist, had invented a new 
>high explosive during WW1, at a time when the British were badly in need of 
>such. Weizmann offered it, was rejected, so he advised the British govt that
>he would offer it instead to the Germans. Result: Balfour Declaration. The 
>formlua was in fact never used.


From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 17:50:00 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 17:50:00 -0800
Subject: [ilds] Judith text & film
In-Reply-To: <5035162.1195338610290.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <5035162.1195338610290.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <473F9A48.1000803@gmail.com>

By the way, for anyone looking, Durrell published "Judith" serially in 
_Woman's Own_ between 26 Feb and 2 Apr 1966.  The timing would certainly 
seem politicized, but that could just be chance.  The film came out the 
same year.

Best,
James

From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Nov 17 17:56:29 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 01:56:29 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Weizmann Story and Anti-Semitism
In-Reply-To: <5035162.1195338610290.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <7A8DCFCC-9579-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Weizmann did not blackmail the British government.  The story is 
moronic and without foundation.  The establishment of a Jewish state 
had the support of liberal (and Liberal) opinion in Britain, and there 
were many reasons why the government supported the idea.  I give a 
summary of this situation in Alexandria: City of Memory.

:Michael



On Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 10:30  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:

> The story about Dr. Chaim Weizmann blackmailing the British government 
> may be true (see Pine below, 11/16/07), in which case I think much 
> less of Weizmann.  The very brief story, however, is also hearsay and 
> has some classic characteristics of anti-Semitism.  Here's how I see 
> them unfolding:
>
> This is fact.  Dr. Chaim Weizmann was born in Russia (1874) and later 
> became a British subject (1910).  He was a leader of the Zionist 
> movement to reestablish a homeland for Jews in Palestine.  A chemist, 
> he worked in the British Admiralty Laboratories 1916-17 and developed 
> a method for extracting acetone and using it in the manufacture of 
> explosives.  He also met Lloyd George, the PM, and Arthur Balfour, the 
> Foreign Secretary, and promoted the Balfour Declaration (1917), the 
> British commitment to the establishment a Jewish homeland in 
> Palestine.  He had a son, Michael Oser, who served honorably in the 
> RAF during WWII as a Flight Lieutenant and died over the Bay of > Biscay.
>
> Now, the story below portrays this same Chaim Weizmann as a 
> money-grabbing scientist, who, improbable as it seems, is willing to 
> betray his country and to commit treason, and to reveal his secret to 
> the enemy, the Hun, in the midst of WWI -- all this in exchange for 
> the establishment of the Jewish state.
>
> The story reminds me of the Dreyfus Affair in France at the end of the 
> 19th century.  So, what he have here is a characterization of the Jew 
> as avaricious merchant, Jew as nefarious traitor, and Jew as religious 
> sectarian.  And the fact that the alleged source of this story is 
> Chaim's own son Michael adds another level of treachery, that is, Jews 
> can be so despicable that even their own offspring may reject and 
> betray them.
>
> I am very suspicious of the story's authenticity.  I find it 
> slanderous and have not found it mentioned elsewhere, e.g., Tom 
> Segev's One Palestine, Complete:  Jews and Arabs Under the British 
> Mandate (Metropolitan, 2000), pp. 33-34.
>
>
> BR
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>> Sent: Nov 17, 2007 8:10 AM
>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Weizmann's blackmail
>>
>> I cannot understand how Weizmann's use of the acetone threat, and 
>> Lloyd
>> George's/Balfour's capitulation, can add up to anti-Semitism. Balfour
>> himself was, if anything, anti-Arab.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>> To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:58 PM
>> Subject: [ilds] Weizmann's blackmail
>>
>>
>>> It would be hard to accuse Michael Weizmann, son of Chaim, of
>>> anti-Semitism, assuming the story is accurate and I have my doubts 
>>> about
>>> that.  The gossip still sounds vicious and anti-Semitic, at least to 
>>> my
>>> ear, anyway.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>>>> Sent: Nov 17, 2007 2:19 AM
>>>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>>>>
>>>> I know nothing of LLloyd George's memoirs or the Fromkin book. My 
>>>> source
>>>> is
>>>> a school chum of Michael Weizmann, Chaim's son, at Rugby, 1932.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>> To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>>> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:15 PM
>>>> Subject: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The story about Weizmann blackmailing the British government may be
>>>>> apocryphal, if based on Lloyd George's memoirs.  And, to be frank,
>>>>> smacks
>>>>> of anti-Semitism, which, to make myself absolutely clear, I'm not
>>>>> charging
>>>>> Richard Pine with, rather the ultimate source of the story.  David
>>>>> Fromkin, author of A Peace to End All Peace:  The Fall of the 
>>>>> Ottoman
>>>>> Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East (Avon, 1989), 
>>>>> says,
>>>>> "Years after the war, Lloyd George -- in writing his memoirs -- 
>>>>> invented
>>>>> the story that he had given the Balfour Declaration in gratitude 
>>>>> for
>>>>> Weizmann's invention [of acetone used in making explosives].  
>>>>> Weizmann's
>>>>> important invention was real, but Lloyd George's story was a work 
>>>>> of
>>>>> fiction" (p. 285).
>>>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>> Sent: Nov 16, 2007 8:22 AM
>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary 
>> Conference
>>
>> The Balfour Declaration was indeed a mistake - in fact, a 
>> serendipitous
>> mistake. Chaim Weizmann, who was a professional chemist, had invented 
>> a new
>> high explosive during WW1, at a time when the British were badly in 
>> need of
>> such. Weizmann offered it, was rejected, so he advised the British 
>> govt that
>> he would offer it instead to the Germans. Result: Balfour 
>> Declaration. The
>> formlua was in fact never used.
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Nov 17 18:08:35 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 02:08:35 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Faisal and Weizmann agreement
Message-ID: <2B2AEB51-957B-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

The Emir Faisal also supported Weizmann in the creation of a Jewish 
homeland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal-Weizmann_Agreement

:Michael




From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 18:18:27 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 18:18:27 -0800
Subject: [ilds] Weizmann Story and Anti-Semitism
In-Reply-To: <5035162.1195338610290.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <5035162.1195338610290.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <473FA0F3.4080904@gmail.com>

Hi Bruce,

I don't know if we'll find too much resolution to this on the list, 
especially with regard to the veracity of the story (seems dubious to 
me), but I must admit that I'm not convinced by your reading of this 
scenario as anti-Semitic.  I don't mean that in a nasty way, just that 
I'm utterly unconvinced and don't know how you'rw viewing this.

You introduce the terms and scenarios that make it anti-Semitic, and I 
can't find any of the things to which you refer in any postings other 
than your own -- isn't that odd?  I'd assume that you're referring to 
some other anti-Semitic rendering of Weizmann that appeared somewhere 
other than on this list (I'm sure there are plenty of nasty ones 
floating around in nefarious places, and I doubt they're hard to find), 
yet you expressly say "the story below," so obviously you're not 
referring to an other source...  I'm puzzled.

You note:

 > He was a leader of the Zionist movement to reestablish
 > a homeland for Jews in Palestine. [...]
> developed a method for extracting acetone and using it
 > in the manufacture of explosives.

 From this conjunction of two facts, which Richard has said some contend 
are related, you derive this:

> Now, the story below portrays this same Chaim Weizmann
 > as a money-grabbing scientist, who, improbable as it
 > seems, is willing to betray his country and to commit
 > treason, and to reveal his secret to the enemy, the Hun,
 > in the midst of WWI -- all this in exchange for the
 > establishment of the Jewish state.

The "money" part seems like a stretch (which is a polite way of saying 
you're the one introducing the word & notion into the introduction, 
though he did get royalties, as he should).  The introduction of money 
is even more odd since the suggestion is that he used the acetone 
information as leverage for a political end and *not* for any kind of 
personal financial gain -- your addition of money and the "grabbing" of 
it to Richard's comments runs entirely contrary to Richard's 
implications, and I'm puzzled why you'd add anti-Semitic material to the 
issue at hand.  Avarice would seem to have nothing to do with it.  As 
for intending to commit treason for financial gain, again that seems to 
be a big stretch from using information as leverage (again, *if* the 
story is true).

The far more likely scenario, rather than being anti-Semitic, would seem 
to be one in which responsibility is deflected from the British to 
Weizmann...  If the story is invented, that would strike me as the most 
likely reason, rather than anti-Semitism.

In fact, Richard's actual comments run entirely contrary to your 
re-interpretation.  Richard wrote:

 > Weizmann offered it, was rejected, so he advised the
 > British govt that he would offer it instead to the Germans.
 > Result: Balfour Declaration.

My dictionary lists only the seventh verb forms of "offer" as implying 
"sale," and even then the example needs to incorporate the word "price" 
in order to make it clear...  I'm surprised you interpret it that way.

I don't see the words "sold," "Money," or "treason" anywhere in 
Richard's actual comments, let alone "price."  Nor do I see any 
suggestion that Weizmann actually *did* offer it to anyone other than 
the British.  Nor do I see Richard suggesting that this was an unwise or 
selfish thing for Weizmann to do (though I'd guess Richard disagrees 
with the outcome).  I can only assume that you're referring to some 
other story that has never appeared in this discussion, yet you're not 
telling us what it is and you're expressly stating that you're referring 
to Richard's comments...

Nonetheless, this leads you to find something contrary:

 > So, what he have here is a characterization of the Jew
 > as avaricious merchant, Jew as nefarious traitor, and
 > Jew as religious sectarian.  And the fact that the alleged
 > source of this story is Chaim's own son Michael adds
 > another level of treachery, that is, Jews can be so
 > despicable that even their own offspring may reject and
 > betray them.

The "religious sectarian" lines seems to have been introduced entirely 
by your comments here -- I can't find it in anything else on the 
listserv, so I can only assume you're introducing it now.  Why? 
Moreover, I don't see where you find his son's treachery, betrayal, or 
rejection in the previous postings -- that's also your addition. 
"Merchant," "money," "treason," "avarice," "treachery," and "betrayal" 
also don't seem to exist or even exist as implications in any of the 
previous postings.

I can only suggest that the anti-Semitism seems to be there because it's 
expedient for the reader to find it in this instance...  If you find it 
in Lloyd George, fine, but he hasn't appeared on the list and he's not 
quoted in your last email nor do you offer up his invented story for 
critique, and you expressly tell us that you're referring to Richard's 
postings.

All of that said, I won't post on this topic to the list any further 
since it's obviously unrelated to Durrell, but if I've misrepresented 
you or your position, please do correct me.  I just won't respond on the 
list, and I must admit that I personally don't care much about the 
veracity of the information anyway.  I also don't intend any of this as 
hostile, but I simply don't see how your response refers to the actual 
postings we've seen, and I think that needs to be said.

However, what do you think of the looming birth of Israel in the 
_Quintet_?  I don't know what to make of it, and I wonder if anyone else 
has thought about it.  I'll find out on Monday if I can get a copy of 
_Judith_ or the issues in which it appeared through ILL.

Best,
James

From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 18:27:21 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 18:27:21 -0800
Subject: [ilds] Faisal and Weizmann agreement
In-Reply-To: <2B2AEB51-957B-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <2B2AEB51-957B-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <473FA309.5000803@gmail.com>

This is far outside my field of familiarity, but didn't he append a 
rather complex series of restrictions to the agreement, basically 
allowing him to back away from it completely if he didn't get what he 
wanted as well?  I may be completely wrong on that.

I also wonder if there's a way to tie this discussion to the suggestion 
in _Justine_ that Nessim might be out to kill the king...  Could this 
have something to do with the shift from MacBeth to King Lear for that 
book Darley brings with him for his romp in the desert?

Best,
James

Michael Haag wrote:
> The Emir Faisal also supported Weizmann in the creation of a Jewish 
> homeland.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal-Weizmann_Agreement
> 
> :Michael
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 

From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Nov 17 18:38:47 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 02:38:47 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Weizmann Story and Anti-Semitism
In-Reply-To: <473FA0F3.4080904@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <63556372-957F-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Richard Pine's original comment was as follows:

'The Balfour Declaration was indeed a mistake - in fact, a serendipitous
mistake. Chaim Weizmann, who was a professional chemist, had invented a 
new
high explosive during WW1, at a time when the British were badly in 
need of
such. Weizmann offered it, was rejected, so he advised the British govt 
that
he would offer it instead to the Germans. Result: Balfour Declaration. 
The
formlua was in fact never used.'

In fact Weizmann invented a new method for producing acetone, and it 
was indeed used by the British for weapons during the war with great 
success.  Weizmann handed over the rights to his process to the British 
government in return for royalties.  To suggest that he blackmailed the 
British government by threatening to hand over knowledge of the process 
to the Germans in wartime is to accuse Weizmann of treason.  It is 
untrue, it is slanderous, and in origin the story is antisemitic.

:Michael







On Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 02:18  am, James Gifford wrote:

> Hi Bruce,
>
> I don't know if we'll find too much resolution to this on the list,
> especially with regard to the veracity of the story (seems dubious to
> me), but I must admit that I'm not convinced by your reading of this
> scenario as anti-Semitic.  I don't mean that in a nasty way, just that
> I'm utterly unconvinced and don't know how you'rw viewing this.
>
> You introduce the terms and scenarios that make it anti-Semitic, and I
> can't find any of the things to which you refer in any postings other
> than your own -- isn't that odd?  I'd assume that you're referring to
> some other anti-Semitic rendering of Weizmann that appeared somewhere
> other than on this list (I'm sure there are plenty of nasty ones
> floating around in nefarious places, and I doubt they're hard to find),
> yet you expressly say "the story below," so obviously you're not
> referring to an other source...  I'm puzzled.
>
> You note:
>
>> He was a leader of the Zionist movement to reestablish
>> a homeland for Jews in Palestine. [...]
>> developed a method for extracting acetone and using it
>> in the manufacture of explosives.
>
>  From this conjunction of two facts, which Richard has said some 
> contend
> are related, you derive this:
>
>> Now, the story below portrays this same Chaim Weizmann
>> as a money-grabbing scientist, who, improbable as it
>> seems, is willing to betray his country and to commit
>> treason, and to reveal his secret to the enemy, the Hun,
>> in the midst of WWI -- all this in exchange for the
>> establishment of the Jewish state.
>
> The "money" part seems like a stretch (which is a polite way of saying
> you're the one introducing the word & notion into the introduction,
> though he did get royalties, as he should).  The introduction of money
> is even more odd since the suggestion is that he used the acetone
> information as leverage for a political end and *not* for any kind of
> personal financial gain -- your addition of money and the "grabbing" of
> it to Richard's comments runs entirely contrary to Richard's
> implications, and I'm puzzled why you'd add anti-Semitic material to 
> the
> issue at hand.  Avarice would seem to have nothing to do with it.  As
> for intending to commit treason for financial gain, again that seems to
> be a big stretch from using information as leverage (again, *if* the
> story is true).
>
> The far more likely scenario, rather than being anti-Semitic, would 
> seem
> to be one in which responsibility is deflected from the British to
> Weizmann...  If the story is invented, that would strike me as the most
> likely reason, rather than anti-Semitism.
>
> In fact, Richard's actual comments run entirely contrary to your
> re-interpretation.  Richard wrote:
>
>> Weizmann offered it, was rejected, so he advised the
>> British govt that he would offer it instead to the Germans.
>> Result: Balfour Declaration.
>
> My dictionary lists only the seventh verb forms of "offer" as implying
> "sale," and even then the example needs to incorporate the word "price"
> in order to make it clear...  I'm surprised you interpret it that way.
>
> I don't see the words "sold," "Money," or "treason" anywhere in
> Richard's actual comments, let alone "price."  Nor do I see any
> suggestion that Weizmann actually *did* offer it to anyone other than
> the British.  Nor do I see Richard suggesting that this was an unwise 
> or
> selfish thing for Weizmann to do (though I'd guess Richard disagrees
> with the outcome).  I can only assume that you're referring to some
> other story that has never appeared in this discussion, yet you're not
> telling us what it is and you're expressly stating that you're 
> referring
> to Richard's comments...
>
> Nonetheless, this leads you to find something contrary:
>
>> So, what he have here is a characterization of the Jew
>> as avaricious merchant, Jew as nefarious traitor, and
>> Jew as religious sectarian.  And the fact that the alleged
>> source of this story is Chaim's own son Michael adds
>> another level of treachery, that is, Jews can be so
>> despicable that even their own offspring may reject and
>> betray them.
>
> The "religious sectarian" lines seems to have been introduced entirely
> by your comments here -- I can't find it in anything else on the
> listserv, so I can only assume you're introducing it now.  Why?
> Moreover, I don't see where you find his son's treachery, betrayal, or
> rejection in the previous postings -- that's also your addition.
> "Merchant," "money," "treason," "avarice," "treachery," and "betrayal"
> also don't seem to exist or even exist as implications in any of the
> previous postings.
>
> I can only suggest that the anti-Semitism seems to be there because 
> it's
> expedient for the reader to find it in this instance...  If you find it
> in Lloyd George, fine, but he hasn't appeared on the list and he's not
> quoted in your last email nor do you offer up his invented story for
> critique, and you expressly tell us that you're referring to Richard's
> postings.
>
> All of that said, I won't post on this topic to the list any further
> since it's obviously unrelated to Durrell, but if I've misrepresented
> you or your position, please do correct me.  I just won't respond on 
> the
> list, and I must admit that I personally don't care much about the
> veracity of the information anyway.  I also don't intend any of this as
> hostile, but I simply don't see how your response refers to the actual
> postings we've seen, and I think that needs to be said.
>
> However, what do you think of the looming birth of Israel in the
> _Quintet_?  I don't know what to make of it, and I wonder if anyone 
> else
> has thought about it.  I'll find out on Monday if I can get a copy of
> _Judith_ or the issues in which it appeared through ILL.
>
> Best,
> James
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Nov 17 18:44:14 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 02:44:14 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Faisal and Weizmann agreement
In-Reply-To: <473FA309.5000803@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <26419FBA-9580-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Yes, Faisal attached a coda to the agreement, and he soon backed out.  
I only mentioned it to show that the story of a Jewish homeland being 
the result of acetone blackmail is false and ridiculous.  Other parties 
had their reasons for supporting the creation of a Jewish homeland, and 
Faisal was one such, who saw it in Arab interests.  One of the major 
Egyptian newspapers, al-Moqattam, run by an Arab, was pro-Zionist right 
through the 1920s.

:Michael



On Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 02:27  am, James Gifford wrote:

> This is far outside my field of familiarity, but didn't he append a
> rather complex series of restrictions to the agreement, basically
> allowing him to back away from it completely if he didn't get what he
> wanted as well?  I may be completely wrong on that.
>
> I also wonder if there's a way to tie this discussion to the suggestion
> in _Justine_ that Nessim might be out to kill the king...  Could this
> have something to do with the shift from MacBeth to King Lear for that
> book Darley brings with him for his romp in the desert?
>
> Best,
> James
>
> Michael Haag wrote:
>> The Emir Faisal also supported Weizmann in the creation of a Jewish
>> homeland.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal-Weizmann_Agreement
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 19:24:37 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:24:37 -0800
Subject: [ilds] Faisal and Weizmann agreement
In-Reply-To: <26419FBA-9580-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <26419FBA-9580-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <473FB075.9070200@gmail.com>

I wonder, Michael, how you date Durrell's familiarity with these kinds 
of issues?  Do you see this as Claude's influence, or was he becoming 
increasingly aware while in Egypt, flying off to meet Nancy in Jerusalem 
and (I think) visiting Beirut?  I seem to recall an interview in which 
he discusses antisemitism with regard to his marriage to Eve and 
troubles surrounding it.

And, why is that we move from Nessim plotting to kill the King in the 
initial single volume (a rumour), yet we end up with a gun-running plot 
to support the Jews in Palestine by the end of the series?  I also 
wonder how that changed, or if it did, by the time we get to _Constance_ 
or Schwarz and Akkad in _Sebastian_?  My annotated copy is in Edmonton, 
but I do have another an campus -- I seem to recall there are two 
contrasting discussions in _Sebastian_ of the impending birth of Israel 
and the horrors of WWII.

And perhaps you can just tell us when the book is coming out, or is this 
your way of ensuring we'll all buy it...

Best,
James

Michael Haag wrote:
> Yes, Faisal attached a coda to the agreement, and he soon backed out.  
> I only mentioned it to show that the story of a Jewish homeland being 
> the result of acetone blackmail is false and ridiculous.  Other parties 
> had their reasons for supporting the creation of a Jewish homeland, and 
> Faisal was one such, who saw it in Arab interests.  One of the major 
> Egyptian newspapers, al-Moqattam, run by an Arab, was pro-Zionist right 
> through the 1920s.
> 
> :Michael
> 
> 
> 
> On Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 02:27  am, James Gifford wrote:
> 
>> This is far outside my field of familiarity, but didn't he append a
>> rather complex series of restrictions to the agreement, basically
>> allowing him to back away from it completely if he didn't get what he
>> wanted as well?  I may be completely wrong on that.
>>
>> I also wonder if there's a way to tie this discussion to the suggestion
>> in _Justine_ that Nessim might be out to kill the king...  Could this
>> have something to do with the shift from MacBeth to King Lear for that
>> book Darley brings with him for his romp in the desert?
>>
>> Best,
>> James
>>
>> Michael Haag wrote:
>>> The Emir Faisal also supported Weizmann in the creation of a Jewish
>>> homeland.
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal-Weizmann_Agreement
>>>
>>> :Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 

From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Nov 17 20:00:25 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 04:00:25 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Faisal and Weizmann agreement
In-Reply-To: <473FB075.9070200@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAACD4AC-958A-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

I do not think his visits to Palestine and Lebanon had anything to do 
with it.  He had other things on his mind -- Nancy and Penelope.  But 
Durrell was living in a very Jewish Alexandria, in the home of Jews 
(the Ambrons), mixing with their cosmopolitan but mostly Jewish friends 
(Menasce, Rolo, Tuby, Aghion, Cattaoui, Suares, etc, and Joe Suares 
(prototype for Balthazar) was Jewish (and a Zionist), and Gaston 
Zananiri (another element in the Balthazar makeup) was half Jewish, 
while in British policy the Palestine question was of course a leading 
one.  Durrell was angry at the way Egypt treated Eve on account of her 
being Jewish -- though she was born in Egypt, and her father was born 
in Egypt, etc, she was denied statehood and a passport, and he knew she 
had no future there, 'she could not function in Egypt' was the way he 
put it somewhere.  There were plenty of reasons even before he met 
Claude for him forming a sympathetic view of the plight of Jews in the 
Middle East in the face of growing Arab nationalism and exclusionism.

On the other hand Durrell hated first principles, anything that came 
down to a single point of view, an ultimate origin, and he reflects 
that in the structure of his writing, but also in his attitude towards 
monotheism whether Christian, Jewish or Muslim, though he tended to 
hold the Jews responsible for being the inventors of the idea.  His 
invectives against Jews in this respect sometimes go beyond the pale, 
as in Caesar's Vast Ghost.  Age and drink did not help.

:Michael





On Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 03:24  am, James Gifford wrote:

> I wonder, Michael, how you date Durrell's familiarity with these kinds
> of issues?  Do you see this as Claude's influence, or was he becoming
> increasingly aware while in Egypt, flying off to meet Nancy in 
> Jerusalem
> and (I think) visiting Beirut?  I seem to recall an interview in which
> he discusses antisemitism with regard to his marriage to Eve and
> troubles surrounding it.
>
> And, why is that we move from Nessim plotting to kill the King in the
> initial single volume (a rumour), yet we end up with a gun-running plot
> to support the Jews in Palestine by the end of the series?  I also
> wonder how that changed, or if it did, by the time we get to 
> _Constance_
> or Schwarz and Akkad in _Sebastian_?  My annotated copy is in Edmonton,
> but I do have another an campus -- I seem to recall there are two
> contrasting discussions in _Sebastian_ of the impending birth of Israel
> and the horrors of WWII.
>
> And perhaps you can just tell us when the book is coming out, or is 
> this
> your way of ensuring we'll all buy it...
>
> Best,
> James
>
> Michael Haag wrote:
>> Yes, Faisal attached a coda to the agreement, and he soon backed out.
>> I only mentioned it to show that the story of a Jewish homeland being
>> the result of acetone blackmail is false and ridiculous.  Other 
>> parties
>> had their reasons for supporting the creation of a Jewish homeland, 
>> and
>> Faisal was one such, who saw it in Arab interests.  One of the major
>> Egyptian newspapers, al-Moqattam, run by an Arab, was pro-Zionist 
>> right
>> through the 1920s.
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 02:27  am, James Gifford wrote:
>>
>>> This is far outside my field of familiarity, but didn't he append a
>>> rather complex series of restrictions to the agreement, basically
>>> allowing him to back away from it completely if he didn't get what he
>>> wanted as well?  I may be completely wrong on that.
>>>
>>> I also wonder if there's a way to tie this discussion to the 
>>> suggestion
>>> in _Justine_ that Nessim might be out to kill the king...  Could this
>>> have something to do with the shift from MacBeth to King Lear for 
>>> that
>>> book Darley brings with him for his romp in the desert?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> James
>>>
>>> Michael Haag wrote:
>>>> The Emir Faisal also supported Weizmann in the creation of a Jewish
>>>> homeland.
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal-Weizmann_Agreement
>>>>
>>>> :Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ILDS mailing list
>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Nov 17 20:09:42 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 04:09:42 +0000
Subject: [ilds] the king
In-Reply-To: <473FB075.9070200@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16BD9026-958C-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

The remark you are referring to, I believe, appears on page 183 of 
Justine, first hardback Faber edition and US paperbacks, but there is 
no mention of a plot to kill the king, rather that Nessim, by giving 
his extravagant parties, is suspected by the diplomatic corps of trying 
to capture the king -- meaning win his company, to entice him, to use 
him in say some commercial or financial venture, ie to gain his favour 
and make use of his influence.

Viz p183: 'Only the diplomatic corps smelt in this new prodigality a 
run of hidden motives, a plot perhaps to capture the King.'

Nothing to do with the later Palestine plot.

:Michael
  	


On Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 03:24  am, James Gifford wrote:

> And, why is that we move from Nessim plotting to kill the King in the
> initial single volume (a rumour), yet we end up with a gun-running plot
> to support the Jews in Palestine by the end of the series?


From richardpin at eircom.net  Sun Nov 18 02:47:31 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:47:31 -0000
Subject: [ilds] Weizmann Story and Anti-Semitism
References: <7A8DCFCC-9579-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <008101c829d0$70ba8ef0$87461359@rpinelaptop>

Michael, if the Weizmann story is 'moronic and without foundation', how was 
it that a 17-y.o. schoolboy could tell it about his own father? Was Michael 
Weizmann a moron? Did he invent stories about his father's role in the 
Zionist cause just to impress his school chums? Or had someone peddled this 
untruth to him and he was sufficiently gullible to have believed it?
RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Haag" <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
To: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>; <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 1:56 AM
Subject: Re: [ilds] Weizmann Story and Anti-Semitism


> Weizmann did not blackmail the British government.  The story is
> moronic and without foundation.  The establishment of a Jewish state
> had the support of liberal (and Liberal) opinion in Britain, and there
> were many reasons why the government supported the idea.  I give a
> summary of this situation in Alexandria: City of Memory.
>
> :Michael
>
>
>
> On Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 10:30  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>> The story about Dr. Chaim Weizmann blackmailing the British government
>> may be true (see Pine below, 11/16/07), in which case I think much
>> less of Weizmann.  The very brief story, however, is also hearsay and
>> has some classic characteristics of anti-Semitism.  Here's how I see
>> them unfolding:
>>
>> This is fact.  Dr. Chaim Weizmann was born in Russia (1874) and later
>> became a British subject (1910).  He was a leader of the Zionist
>> movement to reestablish a homeland for Jews in Palestine.  A chemist,
>> he worked in the British Admiralty Laboratories 1916-17 and developed
>> a method for extracting acetone and using it in the manufacture of
>> explosives.  He also met Lloyd George, the PM, and Arthur Balfour, the
>> Foreign Secretary, and promoted the Balfour Declaration (1917), the
>> British commitment to the establishment a Jewish homeland in
>> Palestine.  He had a son, Michael Oser, who served honorably in the
>> RAF during WWII as a Flight Lieutenant and died over the Bay of > Biscay.
>>
>> Now, the story below portrays this same Chaim Weizmann as a
>> money-grabbing scientist, who, improbable as it seems, is willing to
>> betray his country and to commit treason, and to reveal his secret to
>> the enemy, the Hun, in the midst of WWI -- all this in exchange for
>> the establishment of the Jewish state.
>>
>> The story reminds me of the Dreyfus Affair in France at the end of the
>> 19th century.  So, what he have here is a characterization of the Jew
>> as avaricious merchant, Jew as nefarious traitor, and Jew as religious
>> sectarian.  And the fact that the alleged source of this story is
>> Chaim's own son Michael adds another level of treachery, that is, Jews
>> can be so despicable that even their own offspring may reject and
>> betray them.
>>
>> I am very suspicious of the story's authenticity.  I find it
>> slanderous and have not found it mentioned elsewhere, e.g., Tom
>> Segev's One Palestine, Complete:  Jews and Arabs Under the British
>> Mandate (Metropolitan, 2000), pp. 33-34.
>>
>>
>> BR
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>>> Sent: Nov 17, 2007 8:10 AM
>>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Weizmann's blackmail
>>>
>>> I cannot understand how Weizmann's use of the acetone threat, and
>>> Lloyd
>>> George's/Balfour's capitulation, can add up to anti-Semitism. Balfour
>>> himself was, if anything, anti-Arab.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>> To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:58 PM
>>> Subject: [ilds] Weizmann's blackmail
>>>
>>>
>>>> It would be hard to accuse Michael Weizmann, son of Chaim, of
>>>> anti-Semitism, assuming the story is accurate and I have my doubts
>>>> about
>>>> that.  The gossip still sounds vicious and anti-Semitic, at least to
>>>> my
>>>> ear, anyway.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>>>>> Sent: Nov 17, 2007 2:19 AM
>>>>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>>>>>
>>>>> I know nothing of LLloyd George's memoirs or the Fromkin book. My
>>>>> source
>>>>> is
>>>>> a school chum of Michael Weizmann, Chaim's son, at Rugby, 1932.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>>> To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:15 PM
>>>>> Subject: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The story about Weizmann blackmailing the British government may be
>>>>>> apocryphal, if based on Lloyd George's memoirs.  And, to be frank,
>>>>>> smacks
>>>>>> of anti-Semitism, which, to make myself absolutely clear, I'm not
>>>>>> charging
>>>>>> Richard Pine with, rather the ultimate source of the story.  David
>>>>>> Fromkin, author of A Peace to End All Peace:  The Fall of the
>>>>>> Ottoman
>>>>>> Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East (Avon, 1989),
>>>>>> says,
>>>>>> "Years after the war, Lloyd George -- in writing his memoirs -- 
>>>>>> invented
>>>>>> the story that he had given the Balfour Declaration in gratitude
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> Weizmann's invention [of acetone used in making explosives].
>>>>>> Weizmann's
>>>>>> important invention was real, but Lloyd George's story was a work
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> fiction" (p. 285).
>>>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>>> Sent: Nov 16, 2007 8:22 AM
>>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary
>>> Conference
>>>
>>> The Balfour Declaration was indeed a mistake - in fact, a
>>> serendipitous
>>> mistake. Chaim Weizmann, who was a professional chemist, had invented
>>> a new
>>> high explosive during WW1, at a time when the British were badly in
>>> need of
>>> such. Weizmann offered it, was rejected, so he advised the British
>>> govt that
>>> he would offer it instead to the Germans. Result: Balfour
>>> Declaration. The
>>> formlua was in fact never used.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From richardpin at eircom.net  Sun Nov 18 02:51:27 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:51:27 -0000
Subject: [ilds] Judith text & film
References: <5035162.1195338610290.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<473F9A48.1000803@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008201c829d0$fa9ba5a0$87461359@rpinelaptop>

Given the fact that the script of Judith (at least, the one I have) differs 
so fundamentally from that of the film, it's interesting that the story was 
published the month after the release of the film - or have I got a first 
version of the story/novella which was subsequently re-written by Durrell? 
There is certainly a synopsis of the filmscript which was NOT written (or at 
least, typed) by LD, and was probably the work of John Michael Hayes, who 
was ultimately responsible for the filmscript. The fact that Durrell is 
credited with the original story suggest s that he did not have serious 
reservations about the enormous changes to his original.
RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Gifford" <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 1:50 AM
Subject: [ilds] Judith text & film


> By the way, for anyone looking, Durrell published "Judith" serially in
> _Woman's Own_ between 26 Feb and 2 Apr 1966.  The timing would certainly
> seem politicized, but that could just be chance.  The film came out the
> same year.
>
> Best,
> James
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sun Nov 18 06:23:53 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:23:53 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Weizmann Story and Anti-Semitism
In-Reply-To: <008101c829d0$70ba8ef0$87461359@rpinelaptop>
Message-ID: <E3DFDDB8-95E1-11DC-B73E-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Richard Pine gave the following as his source for this story:

>>>>>> My
>>>>>> source
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> a school chum of Michael Weizmann, Chaim's son, at Rugby, 1932.

In other words the source is not Michael Weizmann but a 'chum' of his.  
This is not a serious source at all.  It is merely peddling a 
demonstrable untruth.  The story is antisemitic.  Why does Richard Pine 
insist on peddling this sort of stuff?

:Michael




On Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 10:47  am, Richard Pine wrote:

> Michael, if the Weizmann story is 'moronic and without foundation', 
> how was
> it that a 17-y.o. schoolboy could tell it about his own father? Was 
> Michael
> Weizmann a moron? Did he invent stories about his father's role in the
> Zionist cause just to impress his school chums? Or had someone peddled 
> this
> untruth to him and he was sufficiently gullible to have believed it?
> RP
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Haag" <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> To: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>; <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 1:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Weizmann Story and Anti-Semitism
>
>
>> Weizmann did not blackmail the British government.  The story is
>> moronic and without foundation.  The establishment of a Jewish state
>> had the support of liberal (and Liberal) opinion in Britain, and there
>> were many reasons why the government supported the idea.  I give a
>> summary of this situation in Alexandria: City of Memory.
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, November 17, 2007, at 10:30  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>
>>> The story about Dr. Chaim Weizmann blackmailing the British 
>>> government
>>> may be true (see Pine below, 11/16/07), in which case I think much
>>> less of Weizmann.  The very brief story, however, is also hearsay and
>>> has some classic characteristics of anti-Semitism.  Here's how I see
>>> them unfolding:
>>>
>>> This is fact.  Dr. Chaim Weizmann was born in Russia (1874) and later
>>> became a British subject (1910).  He was a leader of the Zionist
>>> movement to reestablish a homeland for Jews in Palestine.  A chemist,
>>> he worked in the British Admiralty Laboratories 1916-17 and developed
>>> a method for extracting acetone and using it in the manufacture of
>>> explosives.  He also met Lloyd George, the PM, and Arthur Balfour, 
>>> the
>>> Foreign Secretary, and promoted the Balfour Declaration (1917), the
>>> British commitment to the establishment a Jewish homeland in
>>> Palestine.  He had a son, Michael Oser, who served honorably in the
>>> RAF during WWII as a Flight Lieutenant and died over the Bay of > 
>>> Biscay.
>>>
>>> Now, the story below portrays this same Chaim Weizmann as a
>>> money-grabbing scientist, who, improbable as it seems, is willing to
>>> betray his country and to commit treason, and to reveal his secret to
>>> the enemy, the Hun, in the midst of WWI -- all this in exchange for
>>> the establishment of the Jewish state.
>>>
>>> The story reminds me of the Dreyfus Affair in France at the end of 
>>> the
>>> 19th century.  So, what he have here is a characterization of the Jew
>>> as avaricious merchant, Jew as nefarious traitor, and Jew as 
>>> religious
>>> sectarian.  And the fact that the alleged source of this story is
>>> Chaim's own son Michael adds another level of treachery, that is, 
>>> Jews
>>> can be so despicable that even their own offspring may reject and
>>> betray them.
>>>
>>> I am very suspicious of the story's authenticity.  I find it
>>> slanderous and have not found it mentioned elsewhere, e.g., Tom
>>> Segev's One Palestine, Complete:  Jews and Arabs Under the British
>>> Mandate (Metropolitan, 2000), pp. 33-34.
>>>
>>>
>>> BR
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>>>> Sent: Nov 17, 2007 8:10 AM
>>>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Weizmann's blackmail
>>>>
>>>> I cannot understand how Weizmann's use of the acetone threat, and
>>>> Lloyd
>>>> George's/Balfour's capitulation, can add up to anti-Semitism. 
>>>> Balfour
>>>> himself was, if anything, anti-Arab.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>> To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:58 PM
>>>> Subject: [ilds] Weizmann's blackmail
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It would be hard to accuse Michael Weizmann, son of Chaim, of
>>>>> anti-Semitism, assuming the story is accurate and I have my doubts
>>>>> about
>>>>> that.  The gossip still sounds vicious and anti-Semitic, at least 
>>>>> to
>>>>> my
>>>>> ear, anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>>>>>> Sent: Nov 17, 2007 2:19 AM
>>>>>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know nothing of LLloyd George's memoirs or the Fromkin book. My
>>>>>> source
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> a school chum of Michael Weizmann, Chaim's son, at Rugby, 1932.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>>>> To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:15 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [ilds] Balfour Declaration
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The story about Weizmann blackmailing the British government may 
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> apocryphal, if based on Lloyd George's memoirs.  And, to be 
>>>>>>> frank,
>>>>>>> smacks
>>>>>>> of anti-Semitism, which, to make myself absolutely clear, I'm not
>>>>>>> charging
>>>>>>> Richard Pine with, rather the ultimate source of the story.  
>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>> Fromkin, author of A Peace to End All Peace:  The Fall of the
>>>>>>> Ottoman
>>>>>>> Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East (Avon, 1989),
>>>>>>> says,
>>>>>>> "Years after the war, Lloyd George -- in writing his memoirs --
>>>>>>> invented
>>>>>>> the story that he had given the Balfour Declaration in gratitude
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Weizmann's invention [of acetone used in making explosives].
>>>>>>> Weizmann's
>>>>>>> important invention was real, but Lloyd George's story was a work
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> fiction" (p. 285).
>>>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>>>> Sent: Nov 16, 2007 8:22 AM
>>>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] The Sword of Judith: A Multidisciplinary
>>>> Conference
>>>>
>>>> The Balfour Declaration was indeed a mistake - in fact, a
>>>> serendipitous
>>>> mistake. Chaim Weizmann, who was a professional chemist, had 
>>>> invented
>>>> a new
>>>> high explosive during WW1, at a time when the British were badly in
>>>> need of
>>>> such. Weizmann offered it, was rejected, so he advised the British
>>>> govt that
>>>> he would offer it instead to the Germans. Result: Balfour
>>>> Declaration. The
>>>> formlua was in fact never used.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sun Nov 18 07:03:36 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:03:36 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Weizmann Story and Anti-Semitism
In-Reply-To: <00c301c829f1$0f4b9d50$87461359@rpinelaptop>
Message-ID: <70474290-95E7-11DC-88FD-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

The story accuses Weizmann of blackmailing the British government.  
That is not true.  The story accuses Weizmann of a willingness to 
betray his country, England, in time of war to the Germans.  That is 
not true.  So why was this lie initiated?  What is the purpose of 
recycling the lie?  The story is a patently antisemitic smear.  I am 
disgusted that Richard Pine persists in repeating this sort of vicious 
trash.

:Michael

PS: I repeat herewith my earlier posting about this historical lie and 
antisemitic smear:

Richard Pine's original comment was as follows:

'The Balfour Declaration was indeed a mistake - in fact, a serendipitous
mistake. Chaim Weizmann, who was a professional chemist, had invented a 
new
high explosive during WW1, at a time when the British were badly in 
need of
such. Weizmann offered it, was rejected, so he advised the British govt 
that
he would offer it instead to the Germans. Result: Balfour Declaration. 
The
formlua was in fact never used.'

In fact Weizmann invented a new method for producing acetone, and it 
was indeed used by the British for weapons during the war with great 
success.  Weizmann handed over the rights to his process to the British 
government in return for royalties.  To suggest that he blackmailed the 
British government by threatening to hand over knowledge of the process 
to the Germans in wartime is to accuse Weizmann of treason.  It is 
untrue, it is slanderous, and in origin the story is antisemitic.

:Michael

***

On Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 02:41  pm, Richard Pine wrote:

> I am not 'peddling' - my source was a man whose memory was 
> astonishingly accurate - he would not have told me what Michael 
> Weizmann said to him unless he believed it to be true.
> I fail to see how the story can be 'antisemitic' - it demonstrates 
> that Weizmann would do anything, by means of playing off the 
> super-powers, to further the aim of achieving a jewish state - how 
> could that be antisemitic? It was a profoundly pro-semitic manoeuvre.
> RP
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Haag" 
> <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> To: "Richard Pine" <richardpin at eircom.net>; <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 2:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Weizmann Story and Anti-Semitism
>
>
>> Richard Pine gave the following as his source for this story:
>>
>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>> source
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> a school chum of Michael Weizmann, Chaim's son, at Rugby, 1932.
>>
>> In other words the source is not Michael Weizmann but a 'chum' of 
>> his. This is not a serious source at all.  It is merely peddling a 
>> demonstrable untruth.  The story is antisemitic.  Why does Richard 
>> Pine insist on peddling this sort of stuff?
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 10:47  am, Richard Pine wrote:
>>
>>> Michael, if the Weizmann story is 'moronic and without foundation', 
>>> how was
>>> it that a 17-y.o. schoolboy could tell it about his own father? Was 
>>> Michael
>>> Weizmann a moron? Did he invent stories about his father's role in 
>>> the
>>> Zionist cause just to impress his school chums? Or had someone 
>>> peddled this
>>> untruth to him and he was sufficiently gullible to have believed it?
>>> RP
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Michael Haag" <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>> To: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>; 
>>> <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 1:56 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Weizmann Story and Anti-Semitism
>>>
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sun Nov 18 07:36:26 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:36:26 +0000
Subject: [ilds] Weizmann Story and Anti-Semitism
In-Reply-To: <70474290-95E7-11DC-88FD-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <0640EE75-95EC-11DC-88FD-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Of course one of the purposes of this antisemitic propaganda is as 
Richard Pine sets out below.  According to this telling, the Balfour 
Declaration owes its existence to Weizmann's blackmail and treachery, 
and so by extension everything that followed, including the existence 
of Israel, is a consequence of blackmail and treachery.  We need seek 
no other reasons for the Balfour Declaration.  We need not trouble 
ourselves about the history of the Middle East.  We need not know 
anything at all.  We can remain ignorant and bigoted -- yet still know 
exactly what it is all about, for everything is explained by the 
actions of that Jew Weizmann, blackmailer and traitor.

:Michael



On Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 03:03  pm, Michael Haag wrote:

> The story accuses Weizmann of blackmailing the British government.  
> That is not true.  The story accuses Weizmann of a willingness to 
> betray his country, England, in time of war to the Germans.  That is 
> not true.  So why was this lie initiated?  What is the purpose of 
> recycling the lie?  The story is a patently antisemitic smear.  I am 
> disgusted that Richard Pine persists in repeating this sort of vicious 
> trash.
>
> :Michael
>
> PS: I repeat herewith my earlier posting about this historical lie and 
> antisemitic smear:
>
> Richard Pine's original comment was as follows:
>
> 'The Balfour Declaration was indeed a mistake - in fact, a 
> serendipitous
> mistake. Chaim Weizmann, who was a professional chemist, had invented 
> a new
> high explosive during WW1, at a time when the British were badly in 
> need of
> such. Weizmann offered it, was rejected, so he advised the British 
> govt that
> he would offer it instead to the Germans. Result: Balfour Declaration. 
> The
> formlua was in fact never used.'
>
> In fact Weizmann invented a new method for producing acetone, and it 
> was indeed used by the British for weapons during the war with great 
> success.  Weizmann handed over the rights to his process to the 
> British government in return for royalties.  To suggest that he 
> blackmailed the British government by threatening to hand over 
> knowledge of the process to the Germans in wartime is to accuse 
> Weizmann of treason.  It is untrue, it is slanderous, and in origin 
> the story is antisemitic.
>
> :Michael
>
> ***
>
> On Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 02:41  pm, Richard Pine wrote:
>
>> I am not 'peddling' - my source was a man whose memory was 
>> astonishingly accurate - he would not have told me what Michael 
>> Weizmann said to him unless he believed it to be true.
>> I fail to see how the story can be 'antisemitic' - it demonstrates 
>> that Weizmann would do anything, by means of playing off the 
>> super-powers, to further the aim of achieving a jewish state - how 
>> could that be antisemitic? It was a profoundly pro-semitic manoeuvre.
>> RP
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Haag" 
>> <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>> To: "Richard Pine" <richardpin at eircom.net>; <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 2:23 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Weizmann Story and Anti-Semitism
>>
>>
>>> Richard Pine gave the following as his source for this story:
>>>
>>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>>> source
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> a school chum of Michael Weizmann, Chaim's son, at Rugby, 1932.
>>>
>>> In other words the source is not Michael Weizmann but a 'chum' of 
>>> his. This is not a serious source at all.  It is merely peddling a 
>>> demonstrable untruth.  The story is antisemitic.  Why does Richard 
>>> Pine insist on peddling this sort of stuff?
>>>
>>> :Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 10:47  am, Richard Pine wrote:
>>>
>>>> Michael, if the Weizmann story is 'moronic and without foundation', 
>>>> how was
>>>> it that a 17-y.o. schoolboy could tell it about his own father? Was 
>>>> Michael
>>>> Weizmann a moron? Did he invent stories about his father's role in 
>>>> the
>>>> Zionist cause just to impress his school chums? Or had someone 
>>>> peddled this
>>>> untruth to him and he was sufficiently gullible to have believed it?
>>>> RP
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Michael Haag" <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>>> To: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>; 
>>>> <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 1:56 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Weizmann Story and Anti-Semitism
>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 18 08:20:55 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:20:55 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [ilds] Weizmann Story and Anti-Semitism
Message-ID: <29947799.1195402855901.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

James:

I stand by my the email you refer to, which was a response to Pine's question.  He asked why I thought the story he repeated anti-Semitic.  So, Pine asked for the explanation.  I didn't volunteer it.  I don't find the points you raise below significant or pertinent, and I'm surprised you raised them.  A lot of anti-Semitism operates through innuendo, and if you're not sensitive to the implications of remarks, there's nothing I can do to convince you.  But I don't think highly questionable stories such as the one allegedly told by Michael Weizmann's "chum" should go unchallenged and passed off as actual history.  The story is a smear of Dr. Chaim Weizmann, one of the founders of the state of Israel.


Bruce 

-----Original Message-----
>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>Sent: Nov 17, 2007 6:18 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Weizmann Story and Anti-Semitism
>
>Hi Bruce,
>
>I don't know if we'll find too much resolution to this on the list, 
>especially with regard to the veracity of the story (seems dubious to 
>me), but I must admit that I'm not convinced by your reading of this 
>scenario as anti-Semitic.  I don't mean that in a nasty way, just that 
>I'm utterly unconvinced and don't know how you'rw viewing this.
>
>You introduce the terms and scenarios that make it anti-Semitic, and I 
>can't find any of the things to which you refer in any postings other 
>than your own -- isn't that odd?  I'd assume that you're referring to 
>some other anti-Semitic rendering of Weizmann that appeared somewhere 
>other than on this list (I'm sure there are plenty of nasty ones 
>floating around in nefarious places, and I doubt they're hard to find), 
>yet you expressly say "the story below," so obviously you're not 
>referring to an other source...  I'm puzzled.
>
>You note:
>
> > He was a leader of the Zionist movement to reestablish
> > a homeland for Jews in Palestine. [...]
>> developed a method for extracting acetone and using it
> > in the manufacture of explosives.
>
> From this conjunction of two facts, which Richard has said some contend 
>are related, you derive this:
>
>> Now, the story below portrays this same Chaim Weizmann
> > as a money-grabbing scientist, who, improbable as it
> > seems, is willing to betray his country and to commit
> > treason, and to reveal his secret to the enemy, the Hun,
> > in the midst of WWI -- all this in exchange for the
> > establishment of the Jewish state.
>
>The "money" part seems like a stretch (which is a polite way of saying 
>you're the one introducing the word & notion into the introduction, 
>though he did get royalties, as he should).  The introduction of money 
>is even more odd since the suggestion is that he used the acetone 
>information as leverage for a political end and *not* for any kind of 
>personal financial gain -- your addition of money and the "grabbing" of 
>it to Richard's comments runs entirely contrary to Richard's 
>implications, and I'm puzzled why you'd add anti-Semitic material to the 
>issue at hand.  Avarice would seem to have nothing to do with it.  As 
>for intending to commit treason for financial gain, again that seems to 
>be a big stretch from using information as leverage (again, *if* the 
>story is true).
>
>The far more likely scenario, rather than being anti-Semitic, would seem 
>to be one in which responsibility is deflected from the British to 
>Weizmann...  If the story is invented, that would strike me as the most 
>likely reason, rather than anti-Semitism.
>
>In fact, Richard's actual comments run entirely contrary to your 
>re-interpretation.  Richard wrote:
>
> > Weizmann offered it, was rejected, so he advised the
> > British govt that he would offer it instead to the Germans.
> > Result: Balfour Declaration.
>
>My dictionary lists only the seventh verb forms of "offer" as implying 
>"sale," and even then the example needs to incorporate the word "price" 
>in order to make it clear...  I'm surprised you interpret it that way.
>
>I don't see the words "sold," "Money," or "treason" anywhere in 
>Richard's actual comments, let alone "price."  Nor do I see any 
>suggestion that Weizmann actually *did* offer it to anyone other than 
>the British.  Nor do I see Richard suggesting that this was an unwise or 
>selfish thing for Weizmann to do (though I'd guess Richard disagrees 
>with the outcome).  I can only assume that you're referring to some 
>other story that has never appeared in this discussion, yet you're not 
>telling us what it is and you're expressly stating that you're referring 
>to Richard's comments...
>
>Nonetheless, this leads you to find something contrary:
>
> > So, what he have here is a characterization of the Jew
> > as avaricious merchant, Jew as nefarious traitor, and
> > Jew as religious sectarian.  And the fact that the alleged
> > source of this story is Chaim's own son Michael adds
> > another level of treachery, that is, Jews can be so
> > despicable that even their own offspring may reject and
> > betray them.
>
>The "religious sectarian" lines seems to have been introduced entirely 
>by your comments here -- I can't find it in anything else on the 
>listserv, so I can only assume you're introducing it now.  Why? 
>Moreover, I don't see where you find his son's treachery, betrayal, or 
>rejection in the previous postings -- that's also your addition. 
>"Merchant," "money," "treason," "avarice," "treachery," and "betrayal" 
>also don't seem to exist or even exist as implications in any of the 
>previous postings.
>
>I can only suggest that the anti-Semitism seems to be there because it's 
>expedient for the reader to find it in this instance...  If you find it 
>in Lloyd George, fine, but he hasn't appeared on the list and he's not 
>quoted in your last email nor do you offer up his invented story for 
>critique, and you expressly tell us that you're referring to Richard's 
>postings.
>
>All of that said, I won't post on this topic to the list any further 
>since it's obviously unrelated to Durrell, but if I've misrepresented 
>you or your position, please do correct me.  I just won't respond on the 
>list, and I must admit that I personally don't care much about the 
>veracity of the information anyway.  I also don't intend any of this as 
>hostile, but I simply don't see how your response refers to the actual 
>postings we've seen, and I think that needs to be said.
>
>However, what do you think of the looming birth of Israel in the 
>_Quintet_?  I don't know what to make of it, and I wonder if anyone else 
>has thought about it.  I'll find out on Monday if I can get a copy of 
>_Judith_ or the issues in which it appeared through ILL.
>
>Best,
>James


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sun Nov 18 08:25:55 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 16:25:55 +0000
Subject: [ilds] as a matter of fact
Message-ID: <F0254621-95F2-11DC-88FD-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

First, I say to Richard that you do not know if Weizmann's son made the 
statement.  The chum of course could be a liar.  There is no reason to 
believe that Weizmann's son ever uttered such patently untrue nonsense. 
  What is demonstrably untrue is that Weizmann blackmailed his country 
by threatening to betray it.  I do not know what Richard is writing in 
his book, but if he is passing on this story without pointing out that 
it is has no basis in fact then he is perpetuating an antisemitic smear.

Moreover Richard proves himself ignorant of the basic facts of Middle 
Eastern history.  The Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1915 was made at an 
early stage of the war when the Ottoman Empire, with the help of its 
German ally, was attacking Egypt from the east along the Suez Canal and 
from the west along the Libyan border (Libya being part of the Ottoman 
Empire).  The Agreement outlined spheres of British and French 
influence if they won the war.  It did not provide for the existence of 
a Palestinian state, rather it provided for putting Palestine under 
some form of international administration; and indeed when the League 
of Nations was subsequently established Palestine was placed under the 
authority of the League which granted a mandate over Palestine to 
Britain.  Nothing in the Sykes-Picot Agreement precluded the 
possibility of future agreements which would reflect the progress of 
the war and changing post-war aims, and indeed the circumstances did 
change.  The Balfour Declaration came more than two years later, at the 
end of 1917.  Chaim Weizmann would not have found any contradiction 
between the Sykes-Picot Agreement and the Balfour Declaration as they 
were not written, as Richard mistakenly believes, at the same time, nor 
was there any contradiction between them.  Nothing uttered by the 
British or the French between themselves or to the Arabs precluded the 
possibility of establishing a national home for the Jews in Palestine.  
Indeed as the Weizmann-Faisal agreement shows, the Arabs were entirely 
aware of this possibility in 1919 and supported it at the time, and 
indeed informed Arab opinion continued to support Jewish aspirations 
for at least a decade after the end of the First World War, eg 
al-Moqattam, the Cairo-based newspaper.

Richard Pine claims that Michael Weizmann uttered this demonstrably 
untrue statement to his informant and therefore it is a FACT.  It is 
not a fact at all.  It is a third-hand antisemitic slur and it is being 
regenerated now by Richard Pine.

:Michael




On Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 03:29  pm, Richard Pine wrote:

> I asked how Weizmann's son could have made this statement if he did 
> not believe it to be true. I get no answer. It cannot have been a 
> 'lie', unless Michael W personally invented it, or was wilfully misled 
> by whoever told it to him. I am interested as to how he could have 
> believed it if it was 'demonstrably untrue', as it finds a place in 
> the book I am currently writing - a biography of the man to whom he 
> told it.
> ?
> 'Blackmail' has a very specific meaning, which cannot be read into 
> this information. Weizmann may have been working for the British, but 
> he was demonstrably working for the establishmment of 'his country ' - 
> i.e. Israel. What would he have thought at that time if he had known 
> that, on one hand Balfour was willing to write the relevant letter to 
> Lord Rothschild, while, on another, the British and French governments 
> were making a secret treaty (the 'Sykes-Picot agrement') for quite the 
> opposite purpose - ie the establishment of a Palestinian state?
> ?
> I have had occasion before now to remark that when someone contradicts 
> or annoys Michael Haag, he becomes irritable to the point of 
> offensiveness and verbal violence, and he is being offensive now. He 
> can express himself as 'disgusted' if he so wishes, but it doesnt 
> alter the fact that this story was told (and I assume in good faith) 
> by Michael W to my informant. The information as imparted by Michael W 
> is therefore a FACT - is Michael Haag disgusted that Michael Weizmann 
> said it?
> ?
> I thought this ILDS system was for the exchange of useful information 
> and points of view. As has already been observed, it is becoming a 
> place of unnecessary invective. I spend a great deal of my time 
> advising (usually younger) students on aspects of the Durrell 
> brothers, (enquiries through the DSC and also many unsolicited) and I 
> am happy to do so. Being a member of this ILDS exchange is not helping 
> me to further my interest in either brother, or, I suspect, the 
> interests of others. Therefore I, too, am leaving - please 
> 'unsubscribe' me.
> ?
> Richard Pine
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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sun Nov 18 09:18:33 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 12:18:33 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Regarding the Balfour Declaration &c.
In-Reply-To: <F0254621-95F2-11DC-88FD-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <F0254621-95F2-11DC-88FD-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <474073E9.2050806@wfu.edu>

Now that we have laid out our different points of view on the historical 
events, incidents, rumors, and innuendo surrounding the the Balfour 
Declaration &c., may I ask that we take the discussion back to Durrell's 
engagements with the topic, either in life or in the literature?  I am 
no expert in any of these matters, but I have given some time to reading 
Lawrence Durrell.  I feel more safe judging on the ground of his works.

Michael's point about Durrell's changing views on the establishment of 
Israel might be a place to start.  Michael wrote that:

>         Durrell was angry at the way Egypt treated Eve on account of her 
>         being Jewish -- though she was born in Egypt, and her father was born 
>         in Egypt, etc, she was denied statehood and a passport, and he knew she 
>         had no future there, 'she could not function in Egypt' was the way he 
>         put it somewhere.  There were plenty of reasons even before he met 
>         Claude for him forming a sympathetic view of the plight of Jews in the 
>         Middle East in the face of growing Arab nationalism and exclusionism.
>
>         On the other hand Durrell hated first principles, anything that came 
>         down to a single point of view, an ultimate origin, and he reflects 
>         that in the structure of his writing, but also in his attitude towards 
>         monotheism whether Christian, Jewish or Muslim, though he tended to 
>         hold the Jews responsible for being the inventors of the idea.  His 
>         invectives against Jews in this respect sometimes go beyond the pale, 
>         as in Caesar's Vast Ghost.  Age and drink did not help.

I find this a fair charting out Durrell's views from the 1940s through 
1990.  The "first principles" point is a valid point of caution for 
anyone doing political readings of Durrell.  Like Byron, he abhorred 
Cant (righteousness, verbal decorum, political correctness) in any form.

But what else may we find in the literature?  Even in the /Quartet /we 
will not find a single, coherent view, I think.  Yes, we find moments of 
sympathy for a variety of Jewish characters and Jewish causes.  And we 
might look beyond the character Justine and the furrier Cohen, the 
latter being one the most interesting characters in the /Quartet /for me 
these days.  Balthazar himself is a fine starting point to see the 
extremely varied and ironic expression of Durrell's interest.  Since 
Balthazar's family originates elsewhere, Durrell can even glance at a 
broader, more richly saturated historical spectrum of Jewish 
displacement--cf. the dream-memories of B's father's timepiece:  "A tall 
Jew, dressed in furs, riding a sledge" (2.2 &c.)   Those reveries on the 
flight of B's father and mother move into the tonal register of the 
great cycle of historical dreams. 

(Other instances of this tonal register happen when the dying Cohen 
recalls Melissa, when Scobie is recalling his parents, and when 
Mountolive recalls his childhood.  I take great delight in all of these 
passages.)

Again, when I say "more rich," I mean that I can only judge within the 
terms of Durrell's works.

I will be happy to hear more about Durrell, less about the rest.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sun Nov 18 09:21:36 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 12:21:36 -0500
Subject: [ilds] a platform for new writers such as Lawrence Durrell
In-Reply-To: <008101c829d0$70ba8ef0$87461359@rpinelaptop>
References: <7A8DCFCC-9579-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<008101c829d0$70ba8ef0$87461359@rpinelaptop>
Message-ID: <474074A0.8050103@wfu.edu>

*Oxford begins research on early Indian migrants*
18 Nov 2007, 0937 hrs IST,IANS

*http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-2549563,prtpage-1.cms*

LONDON: A research project charting the life and times of early Indian 
students, visitors and migrants to Britain such as Dadabhai Naoroji, 
Cornelia Sorabji and Rabindranath Tagore has been launched at the 
University of Oxford.

Elleke Boehmer, professor of World Literature in English at the 
university, said: "We are particularly interested in finding out about 
how early South Asian migrants to Britain conceived of themselves as 
modern, usually urban subjects and citizens.

"We would welcome people getting in touch if they have family memories 
or memorabilia relating to the 1870-1920 period which speak to these ideas."

Britain attracted several bright Indians who later went on to 
distinguish themselves in various fields, including in India's freedom 
struggle. Several key leaders in the struggle had a strong connection 
with Britain, mainly in the field of education.

The research project will examine and chronicle the contribution made by 
South Asians to British cultural and political life from the late 19th 
century onwards - from MPs to major literary figures.

The project, called "Making Britain: Visions of Home and Abroad", will 
look at migrants from the Indian subcontinent in Britain as far back as 
1870 and their work as writers, political activists and artists. It will 
examine how they saw themselves in terms of race, class and nation and 
the links they formed between themselves as a group.

Boehmer said: "There is a perception that Britain as a multiracial and 
multicultural society is a product of the Second World War. This 
research will challenge that view, looking at how South Asians were 
shaping British life and culture much earlier.

"Studying this period also shows us that the aspects of multiculturalism 
that attract such interest today - from innovative literature to the 
fear of terrorism - were with us a century ago."

People from the Indian subcontinent made a distinctive contribution to 
British cultural life in this period. For example, Krishna Menon studied 
in London in the 1920s and later became a councillor in St Pancras and 
the founder of Pelican books.

Meary James Tambimuttu was a writer who in 1938 founded Poetry London, a 
journal which provided *a platform for new writers such as Lawrence 
Durrell *and which continues to this day.

South Asians also played an important role in politics. Dadadhai 
Naoroji, a businessman who came to Britain in the 1850s, was elected 
Britain's first Asian MP in 1892. Others found themselves in conflict 
with British society and joined anti-establishment groups such as the 
Indian Communist party. A few turned to violence, most famously with the 
murder of Sir Curzon Wyllie, an India Office official, in 1909.

The research will also re-assess the impact on Britain of figures better 
known for their role in Indian culture. These include the social 
reformer Cornelia Sorabji, who studied at Oxford and became the first 
female Indian barrister, and Rabindranath Tagore, who won the Nobel 
Prize in 1913.

Boehmer said that Oxford was a major centre for South Asians during the 
period under study. By 1922, there were 150 students who had attended 
the university, which offers rich resources for the study of these 
groups. The research will draw on a range of sources, from historical 
and political archives to literature, journalism and photographs.

Sumita Mukherjee, research assistant on the project, who recently 
completed a doctorate on Indian students in Britain from 1900-1947, 
said: "Indian students had varied individual responses to British social 
and educational life. One common theme was a strengthening of their 
sense of Indian identity as opposed to specific regional identities.

"The students had an important impact on both British and Indian life - 
English education brought considerable prestige in India, forming the 
basis for great status there."

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sun Nov 18 09:48:58 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 12:48:58 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Regarding the Balfour Declaration &c.
In-Reply-To: <474073E9.2050806@wfu.edu>
References: <F0254621-95F2-11DC-88FD-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<474073E9.2050806@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <47407B0A.4010502@wfu.edu>

On 11/18/2007 12:18 PM, slighcl wrote:
>
> Michael's point about Durrell's changing views on the establishment of 
> Israel might be a place to start.
I would also appreciate hearing more from James and Richard about the 
varieties of Zionism and anti-Zionism in the /Quintet/.  My knowledge, 
understanding, and sympathy with the /Quintet /in no way approaches my 
long-term intimacy with the /Quartet/, so any reminders or elucidation 
of those baffling books, by means of whatever protocol, would interest me.

C&c.

**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 10:23:54 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:23:54 -0800
Subject: [ilds] a platform for new writers such as Lawrence Durrell
In-Reply-To: <474074A0.8050103@wfu.edu>
References: <7A8DCFCC-9579-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>	<008101c829d0$70ba8ef0$87461359@rpinelaptop>
	<474074A0.8050103@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <4740833A.2060308@gmail.com>

This is a very interesting project, though I wonder why there's a felt 
need to demonstrate that Britain was influenced by multiple cultures -- 
after all, is there a stereotype better than the English drinking tea 
out of china with plenty of sugar in it?

The reference to Tambi and Durrell is good to see, though Richtofen 
describes Durrell's time in London while editing _Delta_ as very much a 
mutual support with Tambi and his subsequent creation of _Poetry 
London_.  I think one would need to go through the Tambimuttu papers (at 
Northeastern??  I think) in order to see if any Durrell letters or 
holograph notes remain, if any of the materials for the first issues of 
_PL_ survive.  Richtofen describes it as Durrell working with Tambimuttu 
on the project.  At any rate, by the time Durrell and Tambi met up, 
Durrell was already a published poet and novelist with _The Booster_ 
behind him and _Delta_ in his hands.

The two men certainly supported each other throughout their careers, 
with Tambi frequently anthologizing Durrell and Durrell offering up plum 
material for Tambi whenever he had a new project going.  Much like the 
_Booster_ and _Delta_ days, _Poetry London_ and its Editions parades the 
same cast of characters who had circled around the Villa Seurat...

It sounds like a good opportunity to talk about _Pied Piper of Lovers_.

Cheers,
James

slighcl wrote:
> *Oxford begins research on early Indian migrants*
> 18 Nov 2007, 0937 hrs IST,IANS
> 
> *http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-2549563,prtpage-1.cms*

From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sun Nov 18 10:59:18 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:59:18 -0500
Subject: [ilds] new writers such as Lawrence Durrell
In-Reply-To: <4740833A.2060308@gmail.com>
References: <7A8DCFCC-9579-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>	<008101c829d0$70ba8ef0$87461359@rpinelaptop>	<474074A0.8050103@wfu.edu>
	<4740833A.2060308@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47408B86.8020305@wfu.edu>

On 11/18/2007 1:23 PM, James Gifford wrote:

>         This is a very interesting project, though I wonder why there's a felt 
>         need to demonstrate that Britain was influenced by multiple cultures -- 
>         after all, is there a stereotype better than the English drinking tea 
>         out of china with plenty of sugar in it?

Yes, I cannot say how interesting or even novel the results of that 
project will be, but I think that there is always the moment of 
cognitive surprise in recalling the rich, humic foundations of the 
culture again. 

In their very different moments and for their very different purposes, 
Rudyard Kipling's /Puck of Pook's Hill/ (1906) and Billy Bragg's 
"England, Half English" (2002) each give me this same sort of pleasant 
awakening. 

>         My mother was half English and I'm half English too
>         I'm a great big bundle of culture tied up in the red white and
>         blue
>         I'm a fine example of your Essex man
>         And I'm well familiar with the Hindustan
>         Cos my neighbours are half English and I'm half English too
>
>         My breakfast was half English and so am I you know
>         I had a plate of Marmite soldiers washed down with a cappuccino
>         And I have a veggie curry about once a week
>         The next day I fry it up as bubble and squeak
>         Cos my appetites half English and I'm half English too
>
>         Dance with me to this very English melody
>         From morris dancing to Morrissey,
>         all that stuff came from across the sea
>
>         Britannia, she's half English, she speaks Latin at home
>         St George was born in the Lebanon, how he got here I don't know
>         And those three lions on your shirt,
>         They never sprang from England's dirt
>         Them lions are half English and I'm half English too
>
>         Le-li Umma le-li-ya, le-li Umma le-li-ya,
>         Le-li Umma le-li-ya, bledi g'desh akh! le-li-ya
>
>         Oh my country, what a beautiful country you are
>


-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From h.elderhorst at hurontel.on.ca  Sun Nov 18 14:27:41 2007
From: h.elderhorst at hurontel.on.ca (Henry and Anne Elderhorst)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 17:27:41 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Durrell, The Dark Labyrinth
Message-ID: <000601c82a32$3ca1b0a0$2b802ed8@acera2gjrt6tf9>

Greetings,
    I am a twelth grade english student from Ontario Canada, and i have chosen to base my independent study unit on the works of Durrell, specifically, The Dark Labyrinth.  My essay will focus mainly on his themes of personal enlightenment and self discovery; for lack of a better term, I am hoping to comment on his views of "the meaning of life."
    I have just started my research and have made good progress.  I believe that information about his Eastern culture background and his tendancy towards Tibetan Mentality will be of great advantage to my essay.  
    Currently, I am looking for more useful information about Durrell, his lifestyle, his philosophies, and his other works, that will help me best portray Durrell's disposition and theories about life and death.  What better place to look for this informations that the official ILDS Discussion Group.   Any help, hints, or information that anyone could provide me woud be greatly apreciated. 
                                                                                                                             Thank you,
                                                                                                                       Brianna Elderhorst 
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sun Nov 18 14:58:42 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:58:42 +0000
Subject: [ilds] great regrets
Message-ID: <CF2DB12D-9629-11DC-A8C1-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

I am withdrawing from the ILDS online discussion group.  Anyone who 
wishes to contact me one-to-one in future is welcome to do so.

:Michael


From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 14:56:59 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:56:59 -0800
Subject: [ilds] Lawrence Durrell, The Dark Labyrinth
In-Reply-To: <000601c82a32$3ca1b0a0$2b802ed8@acera2gjrt6tf9>
References: <000601c82a32$3ca1b0a0$2b802ed8@acera2gjrt6tf9>
Message-ID: <4740C33B.4060807@gmail.com>

Hello Brianna,

You've chosen a precocious topic for Grade 12!  I'm curious if you chose 
Durrell yourself or if it was suggested to you by your teacher?

There hasn't been a tremendous amount of work on _The Dark Labyrinth_, 
but depending on where you are in Ontario, you should be able to locate 
a few critical resources to help you out.  First, the book was published 
under two titles, so you might find references to both: also see _Cefalu_.

Here are the critical sources that come to mind quickly:

----------
Brigham, James A. "Initiatory Experience in The Dark Labyrinth." _Deus 
Loci: The Lawrence Durrell Quarterly_ 7.5 (1984): 19-29.
   (it's in the National Library, among other places)

Goldberg, Fredrick. "The Dark Labyrinth: Journeys Beneath the 
Landscape." _Deus Loci: The Lawrence Durrell Newsletter_ 2.3 (1979): 13-22.

Kaczvinsky, Donald P. "Durrell's The Dark Labyrinth." _The Explicator_ 
46.3 (1988): 42-44.

You might also want to take a look in these books:

MacNiven, Ian. _Lawrence Durrell: A Biography_. London: Faber & Faber, 1999.

Kaczvinsky, Donald P. _Lawrence Durrell's Major Novels, or The Kingdom 
of the Imagination_. London: Susquehannah University Press, 1997.
----------

Your high school library isn't likely to have any of those, but perhaps 
the librarian can help you to begin.

Best,
James

Henry and Anne Elderhorst wrote:
> Greetings,
>     I am a twelth grade english student from Ontario Canada, and i have 
> chosen to base my independent study unit on the works of Durrell, 
> specifically, /The Dark Labyrinth./  My essay will focus mainly on 
> his themes of personal enlightenment and self discovery; for lack of a 
> better term, I am hoping to comment on his views of "the meaning of life."
>     I have just started my research and have made good progress.  I 
> believe that information about his Eastern culture background and 
> his tendancy towards Tibetan Mentality will be of great advantage to my 
> essay. 
>     Currently, I am looking for more useful information about Durrell, 
> his lifestyle, his philosophies, and his other works, that will help me 
> best portray Durrell's disposition and theories about life and death.  
> What better place to look for this informations that the official ILDS 
> Discussion Group.   Any help, hints, or information that anyone could 
> provide me woud be greatly apreciated. 
>                                                                                                                              
> Thank you,
>                                                                                                                       
>  Brianna Elderhorst 

From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 15:03:53 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:03:53 -0800
Subject: [ilds] OMG XV - Paris (forwarded from Paul)
In-Reply-To: <16BD9026-958C-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <16BD9026-958C-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <4740C4D9.1000301@gmail.com>

Dear Durrellians,

Attached to this email is the Call for Papers for our next conference to 
be held at the University of Paris X in Nanterre on July 1-5, 2008.  I 
will be sending you a printed copy of the Call for Papers as soon as it 
comes back from the printer, but in the meantime, take a look at this 
electronic version and send it on to anyone you know who might be 
interested in joining us in Paris next July.

Paul H. Lorenz
Secretary/Treasurer
The International Lawrence Durrell Society
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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 15:07:48 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:07:48 -0800
Subject: [ilds] the king
In-Reply-To: <16BD9026-958C-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <16BD9026-958C-11DC-A71F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <4740C5C4.1010402@gmail.com>

I can accept that reading, and my memory of "kill" obviously shows how I 
had interpreted it.

However, we do have (according to my proof copy -- I don't have the book 
handy) 10 pages earlier the King as a frequent guest at Nessim's table. 
  I don't think Nessim needs a 'play' since he appears to have already 
'caught' the King -- I wonder what indeterminate and ambiguous purpose 
would make the diplomatic corps wary of "hidden motives, a plot perhaps"?

Should we consider the rich allusions to Xenophon that Bill has dug up, 
which tie in to this moment in the text, and thus see the potential for 
a political dimension -- after all, that is where the book goes later 
(not assassination but political intrigue), and there are heavy 
citations from the Anabasis...

I'm not entirely sure that the notion of a plot wasn't already 
fermenting, but I think that would be a matter for the notebooks to 
decide, and i don't have access to those, nor am I entirely sure how to 
date them accurately.  Charles & Michael?  Are there any scribblings 
about such things?  They seem to have been on him mind contemporaneously 
with _White Eagles Over Serbia_ at least...

With an ambiguity like this, I think the text gives us at least two 
options as readers, and I'm not sure which I ought to prefer.  Even 
apart from the author's intentions, I'd feel more comfortable with 
continuity in my paratexts, but by the time we get to the omnibus 
edition, I think "capture" has to be read as a foreshadowing of plots 
yet to come.  After all, isn't Scobie the one hunting for plots?  I can 
only imagine what the old pirate would dream up...

Best,
James

Michael Haag wrote:
> The remark you are referring to, I believe, appears on page 183 of 
> Justine, first hardback Faber edition and US paperbacks, but there is 
> no mention of a plot to kill the king, rather that Nessim, by giving 
> his extravagant parties, is suspected by the diplomatic corps of trying 
> to capture the king -- meaning win his company, to entice him, to use 
> him in say some commercial or financial venture, ie to gain his favour 
> and make use of his influence.
> 
> Viz p183: 'Only the diplomatic corps smelt in this new prodigality a 
> run of hidden motives, a plot perhaps to capture the King.'
> 
> Nothing to do with the later Palestine plot.
> 
> :Michael
>   	
> 
> 
> On Sunday, November 18, 2007, at 03:24  am, James Gifford wrote:
> 
>> And, why is that we move from Nessim plotting to kill the King in the
>> initial single volume (a rumour), yet we end up with a gun-running plot
>> to support the Jews in Palestine by the end of the series?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>