[ilds] Clito's Cavern

Garry Eaton shotspur at shaw.ca
Tue Jul 10 17:54:50 PDT 2007


Am I the only one who sees a sly pun in the name of this formalesonly 
grotto?

Garry
----- Original Message ----- 
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To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 12:00 PM
Subject: [WARNING - NOT VIRUS SCANNED] ILDS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 14


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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: RG Bitter Lemons -- places of limitation (william godshalk)
>   2. Re: Et in Arcadia ego (Bruce Redwine)
>   3. hyphens and posts... (Pamela Francis)
>   4. Re: hyphens and posts... (Vittorio Celentano)
>   5. Re: hyphens and posts... (Michael Haag)
>   6. Re: hyphens and posts... (Bruce Redwine)
>   7. Re: hyphens and posts... (Vittorio Celentano)
>   8. Re: Et in Arcadia ego (Michael Haag)
>   9. Re: RG Bitter Lemons -- Frangos (slighcl)
>  10. Re: hyphens and posts... (william godshalk)
>  11. Re: RG Bitter Lemons -- Frangos (slighcl)
>  12. Re: RG Bitter Lemons -- Frangos (slighcl)
>  13. Re: hyphens and posts... (Michael Haag)
>  14. Re: RG Bitter Lemons -- epithets (Michael Haag)
>  15. Bitter Lemons - a black patch, a watch key and a couple of
>      dispossessed wedding rings (Michael Haag)
>  16. Re: hyphens and posts... (Richard Pine)
>  17. Re: hyphens and posts... (slighcl)
>  18. Re: RG Bitter Lemons -- epigraphs (slighcl)
>  19. Re: RG Bitter Lemons -- epigraphs (Michael Haag)
>  20. Turkish proverb (Michael Haag)
>  21. Re: RG Bitter Lemons -- epigraphs (slighcl)
>  22. RG Bitter Lemons -- Epigraphs (slighcl)
>  23. further Turkish proverbs (Michael Haag)
>  24. Re: hyphens and posts... (Pamela Francis)
>  25. RG Bitter Lemons -- post- ("with such dexterity") (slighcl)
>  26. Re: hyphens and posts... (Michael Haag)
>  27. Re: hyphens and posts... (Vittorio Celentano)
>  28. Re: RG Bitter Lemons -- post- ("with such dexterity")
>      (Michael Haag)
>  29. Re: Bitter Lemons - throwaways and epigraphs (Bruce Redwine)
>  30. Re: RG Bitter Lemons -- post- ("with such dexterity")
>      (Pamela Francis)
>  31. Re: RG Bitter Lemons -- General Envy (slighcl)
>  32. Re: RG Bitter Lemons -- "to post with such dexterity" (slighcl)
>  33. Re: hyphens and posts... (william godshalk)
>  34. Re: RG Bitter Lemons -- General Envy (william godshalk)
>  35. Re: hyphens and posts... (Richard Pine)
>  36. Re: Turkish proverb (Richard Pine)
>  37. Re: RG Bitter Lemons -- post- ("with such dexterity")
>      (Richard Pine)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 13:57:35 -0400
> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- places of limitation
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID:
> <20070709175734.VUGB15819.gx6.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 12:37:23 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Et in Arcadia ego
> To: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>, Durrell list
> <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Message-ID:
> <10276896.1184009844087.JavaMail.root at elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> That's what I think needs to be discussed -- what else is going on.  All 
> fine and well to point out the allusions, a pleasurable literary pursuit 
> indeed, but what interest me, and perhaps few others, are the chinks in 
> the armor, as Durrell says in a letter about Hamlet.  Being "gorgeously 
> drunk" is one of those chinks.  Durrell presents this as a positive 
> virtue, a manly virtue in the Latin sense, but it strikes me as 
> symptomatic of a big problem.  Little hints like this are being dropped 
> throughout the story -- the bombing and hospital episode, when Mrs. Lewis 
> turns up, is another example, which Michael has already pointed out. 
> Another is Clito's Cavern.  Why are women being kept out of this male 
> domain?  Indeed, they're largely and apparently deliberately being kept 
> out of the entire story.  The story up to now has a fine veneer of jovial 
> and convivial pastoralism.  But I see something sinister in the cavern. 
> Charles points out Polyphemos's cave.  I'd like to add Plato's!
>  allegory of the cave in the Republic, where we mistake shadows for the 
> real.  I find Durrell's manipulation of the Greeks a little sinister and 
> self-promoting.  It's all very pastoral, but et in Arcadia ego, "death is 
> even in Arcadia," as George III explained when he saw a Reynolds painting.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>>Sent: Jul 9, 2007 11:20 AM
>>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -more than male-bonding
>>
>>Much more than Homerallusions and male-bonding seems to be going on here. 
>>writesBruce.
>>
>>Okay, that seems likely, but what else is going on? As you point 
>>out,drinking is going on. But why and what else?
>>
>>Bill
>>
>>***************************************
>>W. L.Godshalk          *
>>Department ofEnglish         *
>>University ofCincinnati           Stellar disorder  *
>>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>>513-281-5927
>>***************************************
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 14:56:20 -0500
> From: "Pamela Francis" <albigensian at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <BAY108-F168EAF5919504CC9D9F8A4B0060 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> Bill had recently asked about the hyphen which is sometimes and sometimes
> not employed in the term postcolonial.  There are pages and pages written
> about this, but in short, the word WITH the hyphen, that is, 
> post-colonial,
> generally refers to the actual literature coming from formerly colonized
> nations.  For instance, Arundhati Roy, Chinua Achebe, Ngugi, etc., are
> considered post-colonial writers.  However, without the hyphen it refers 
> to
> the MUCH larger area of discussion surrounding issues of Empire,
> decolonization, race, neocolonization, gender, etc. and so forth, all of
> which, according to most contributors on this list serve, seem not to have
> any relation to literature worth discussing...
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 18:02:48 -0400
> From: "Vittorio Celentano" <vcel at ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Message-ID: <000701c7c274$e395d1f0$ed525645 at vittoriohx7smy>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Pamela,
>
> Postcolonial seems to be more often used in literature than 
> "post-colonial.
> Please, refer to:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcolonial_literature
>
> Vittorio
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Pamela Francis" <albigensian at hotmail.com>
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 3:56 PM
> Subject: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
>
>
>> Bill had recently asked about the hyphen which is sometimes and sometimes
>> not employed in the term postcolonial.  There are pages and pages written
>> about this, but in short, the word WITH the hyphen, that is,
> post-colonial,
>> generally refers to the actual literature coming from formerly colonized
>> nations.  For instance, Arundhati Roy, Chinua Achebe, Ngugi, etc., are
>> considered post-colonial writers.  However, without the hyphen it refers
> to
>> the MUCH larger area of discussion surrounding issues of Empire,
>> decolonization, race, neocolonization, gender, etc. and so forth, all of
>> which, according to most contributors on this list serve, seem not to 
>> have
>> any relation to literature worth discussing...
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 23:49:00 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <95B54712-2E6E-11DC-88C1-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> What is it when there is only the hyphen and nothing on either side,
> thus:  -   ?
>
>
>
> On Monday, July 9, 2007, at 08:56  pm, Pamela Francis wrote:
>
>> Bill had recently asked about the hyphen which is sometimes and
>> sometimes
>> not employed in the term postcolonial.  There are pages and pages
>> written
>> about this, but in short, the word WITH the hyphen, that is,
>> post-colonial,
>> generally refers to the actual literature coming from formerly
>> colonized
>> nations.  For instance, Arundhati Roy, Chinua Achebe, Ngugi, etc., are
>> considered post-colonial writers.  However, without the hyphen it
>> refers to
>> the MUCH larger area of discussion surrounding issues of Empire,
>> decolonization, race, neocolonization, gender, etc. and so forth, all
>> of
>> which, according to most contributors on this list serve, seem not to
>> have
>> any relation to literature worth discussing...
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 16:00:06 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID:
> <30817523.1184022006975.JavaMail.root at elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>
> That's the ultimate in post-modern discourse:  the writer provides the 
> hyphens and reader the terms.  Doesn't Scobie talk about circumcision 
> being an act of hyphenation?
>
> Bruce
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>Sent: Jul 9, 2007 3:49 PM
>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
>>
>>What is it when there is only the hyphen and nothing on either side,
>>thus:  -   ?
>>
>>
>>
>>On Monday, July 9, 2007, at 08:56  pm, Pamela Francis wrote:
>>
>>> Bill had recently asked about the hyphen which is sometimes and
>>> sometimes
>>> not employed in the term postcolonial.  There are pages and pages
>>> written
>>> about this, but in short, the word WITH the hyphen, that is,
>>> post-colonial,
>>> generally refers to the actual literature coming from formerly
>>> colonized
>>> nations.  For instance, Arundhati Roy, Chinua Achebe, Ngugi, etc., are
>>> considered post-colonial writers.  However, without the hyphen it
>>> refers to
>>> the MUCH larger area of discussion surrounding issues of Empire,
>>> decolonization, race, neocolonization, gender, etc. and so forth, all
>>> of
>>> which, according to most contributors on this list serve, seem not to
>>> have
>>> any relation to literature worth discussing...
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ILDS mailing list
>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 18:49:14 -0400
> From: "Vittorio Celentano" <vcel at ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Message-ID: <000701c7c27b$5fc01be0$ed525645 at vittoriohx7smy>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Michael,
>
> Perhaps this will help:
> http://www.britannica.com/search?query=postcolonial+&submit=Find&source=MWTEXT
>
> Ever
>
> Vittorio
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Haag" <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 6:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
>
>
>> What is it when there is only the hyphen and nothing on either side,
>> thus:  -   ?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, July 9, 2007, at 08:56  pm, Pamela Francis wrote:
>>
>> > Bill had recently asked about the hyphen which is sometimes and
>> > sometimes
>> > not employed in the term postcolonial.  There are pages and pages
>> > written
>> > about this, but in short, the word WITH the hyphen, that is,
>> > post-colonial,
>> > generally refers to the actual literature coming from formerly
>> > colonized
>> > nations.  For instance, Arundhati Roy, Chinua Achebe, Ngugi, etc., are
>> > considered post-colonial writers.  However, without the hyphen it
>> > refers to
>> > the MUCH larger area of discussion surrounding issues of Empire,
>> > decolonization, race, neocolonization, gender, etc. and so forth, all
>> > of
>> > which, according to most contributors on this list serve, seem not to
>> > have
>> > any relation to literature worth discussing...
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > ILDS mailing list
>> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 00:11:16 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Et in Arcadia ego
> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <B1A33400-2E71-11DC-88C1-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> I was thinking the same myself as I took my evening constitutional up
> the hill past Keats' house and back down by Constable's grave.  I was
> thinking of the attempt to keep this discussion to literary allusions
> when in fact that is the least of this book, for the reader and for
> Durrell himself.  Walking back and forth across this same place, across
> these same islands, one encounters lives in succession, underlying
> stories, suggestions of deep troubles.  Here is a man on an island with
> a child, and before he gets there he visits the observation ward of a
> hospital.  Somewhere that registers in the reader's mind, I would have
> thought.  The caricature English in the Dome and the caricature Greeks
> in the tavern, and Durrell saying he is part of neither caricature.
> But it is almost as though he would like those caricatures to live, be
> real, be the true state of affairs.  These absurd English are the ones
> he traditionally reviles in his attacks on Pudding Island, but the
> truth is that only very few are like that; that for Durrell to distance
> himself from England he needs to turn them into cartoons, just as to
> join the Greeks he needs -- not just in this book but in all his books
> -- to turn them into cartoons.  The awful truth for Durrell is that he
> likes living among Greeks; he likes their ways; but he is an Englishman
> -- he is certainly not a Greek, as Seferis reminded him.  And what we
> are being set up for by this banter, this fooling around, this making
> us laugh at the English (ie laugh at ourselves, as the original readers
> of this book were the English) and laugh at the Greeks (who were
> blowing us up), is something very hard and unpleasant, something bitter
> -- that you can sit around on islands under trees of idleness and drink
> the local potion, but comes the day that somebody wants to know are you
> with us or them and holds a gun to your head.  It was a catastrophic
> moment.  And that is when Durrell leaves.
>
> :Michael
>
>
> On Monday, July 9, 2007, at 08:37  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>> That's what I think needs to be discussed -- what else is going on.
>> All fine and well to point out the allusions, a pleasurable literary
>> pursuit indeed, but what interest me, and perhaps few others, are the
>> chinks in the armor, as Durrell says in a letter about Hamlet.  Being
>> "gorgeously drunk" is one of those chinks.  Durrell presents this as a
>> positive virtue, a manly virtue in the Latin sense, but it strikes me
>> as symptomatic of a big problem.  Little hints like this are being
>> dropped throughout the story -- the bombing and hospital episode, when
>> Mrs. Lewis turns up, is another example, which Michael has already
>> pointed out.  Another is Clito's Cavern.  Why are women being kept out
>> of this male domain?  Indeed, they're largely and apparently
>> deliberately being kept out of the entire story.  The story up to now
>> has a fine veneer of jovial and convivial pastoralism.  But I see
>> something sinister in the cavern.  Charles points out Polyphemos's
>> cave.  I'd like to add Plato's!
>>   allegory of the cave in the Republic, where we mistake shadows for
>> the real.  I find Durrell's manipulation of the Greeks a little
>> sinister and self-promoting.  It's all very pastoral, but et in
>> Arcadia ego, "death is even in Arcadia," as George III explained when
>> he saw a Reynolds painting.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 20:10:58 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Frangos
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <4692CE92.6050604 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On 7/9/2007 1:43 PM, william godshalk wrote:
>
>>         But, Charlie, Durrell does not stick a sharpened piece of
>>         olive wood in Frangos's eye. And Frangos does not say that he
>>         will eat Durrell last.
>>
>>         I see the allusion to Odysseus, but I think it's a comic
>>         parallel in prose.
>
> No "buts" or other excuses necessary, Bill.  Comic is right on.   After
> all, it all comes out okay for our hero.   Sticks are not necessary.
> That was not the main coup effected by Odysseus.  The true coup was that
> he threw Polyphemus's ability to speak to his fellow cyclops into
> disorder.  Language.  The "Nemo" routine was more powerful than the big
> stick.  Effective strategy for Odysseus on the island of the Cyclops;
> effective strategy for Durrell on his island of Cyprus.  The best talker
> carries the day.
>
> My noticing of the deeper-Polyphemus here is "but" my lark on Durrell's
> lark.   In our reading we should think in terms of soft, playful
> insistencies as we make these points, I think.  Set them up; knock them
> down; leave them behind.
>
> CLS
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 21:51:09 -0400
> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID:
> <20070710015107.THDP3027.gx5.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Thank you very much. My birthday party tonight. Sons and daughters
> gathering round. More later.
> Bill (drunk, again)
>
> At 03:56 PM 7/9/2007, you wrote:
>>Bill had recently asked about the hyphen which is sometimes and sometimes
>>not employed in the term postcolonial.  There are pages and pages written
>>about this, but in short, the word WITH the hyphen, that is, 
>>post-colonial,
>>generally refers to the actual literature coming from formerly colonized
>>nations.  For instance, Arundhati Roy, Chinua Achebe, Ngugi, etc., are
>>considered post-colonial writers.  However, without the hyphen it refers 
>>to
>>the MUCH larger area of discussion surrounding issues of Empire,
>>decolonization, race, neocolonization, gender, etc. and so forth, all of
>>which, according to most contributors on this list serve, seem not to have
>>any relation to literature worth discussing...
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ILDS mailing list
>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> ***************************************
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English         *
> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> 513-281-5927
> ***************************************
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 23:28:54 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Frangos
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <4692FCF6.40908 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Does anyone have thoughts about Durrell's use of epigraphs in /Bitter
> Lemons/?
>
> We might imagine these epigraphs as a kind of general horizon or
> backdrop against which the particulars of the chapter are enacted.
>
> Or we might think of them as a kind of choric commentary.
>
> If so, what then?
>
> Particulars always help, don't they?  Here follows one epigraph from
> "Voices at the Tavern Door":
>
>        "So long as he has a tooth left a fox won't be pious."
>
> What does that epigraph mean in terms of this chapter?  Tooth?  Fox?
> Piety?  Please help.
>
> Charles, home at last
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 23:45:45 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Frangos
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <469300E9.2040705 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On 7/9/2007 11:28 PM, slighcl wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have thoughts about Durrell's use of epigraphs in /Bitter
>> Lemons/?
>
>
>        *Cyprus talks resume amid gloom over outcome*
>        Tuesday, August 12, 1997 - foreign
>        http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/archives.php?id=3835
>
>>         Despite the island's 23-year-old partition, however, Cypriot
>>         proverbs is one thing the two communities still have in
>>         common. Mediators in Glion may find one of them particularly
>>         apt:: *"Everyone pulls the quilt over to his side."*
>
>
> Now that one about the quilt is clearly easier to decipher.   Anybody
> can figure that one out.   What about the fox and his toothless pieties?
>
> Charles
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:19:30 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <AA094C54-2EC6-11DC-962D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>
> Pamela wrote:
>
>>> Bill had recently asked about the hyphen which is sometimes and
>>> sometimes
>>> not employed in the term postcolonial.  There are pages and pages
>>> written
>>> about this, but in short, the word WITH the hyphen, that is,
>>> post-colonial,
>>> generally refers to the actual literature coming from formerly
>>> colonized
>>> nations.  For instance, Arundhati Roy, Chinua Achebe, Ngugi, etc., are
>>> considered post-colonial writers.  However, without the hyphen it
>>> refers to
>>> the MUCH larger area of discussion surrounding issues of Empire,
>>> decolonization, race, neocolonization, gender, etc. and so forth, all
>>> of
>>> which, according to most contributors on this list serve, seem not to
>>> have
>>> any relation to literature worth discussing...
>
> I bet that pages and pages have indeed been written about the hyphens
> in this matter.  I cannot see that it matters a whit.  Not that there
> is even agreement with the distinction that Pamela offers above.
> Wikipedia for example is indifferent:
>
> 'Postcolonialism (also known as postcolonial theory, or spelled with a
> hyphen) refers to a set of theories in philosophy, film and literature
> that grapple with the legacy of colonial rule. As a literary theory or
> critical approach, it deals with literature produced in countries that
> were once colonies of other countries, especially the major European
> colonial powers Britain, France and Spain; in some contexts, it may
> include also countries still under colonial arrangements. It may also
> deal with literature written in or by citizens of colonizing countries
> that takes colonies or their peoples as its subject matter. People from
> colonized countries, especially the British Empire, came to
> universities in Britain; their access to education that was then still
> unavailable in the colonies opened a new criticism, mostly in
> literature, especially in novels. Postcolonial theory became part of
> the critical toolbox in the 1970s, and many practitioners take Edward
> Said's book Orientalism to be the theory's founding work.'
>
> Not that I am holding up Wikipedia as anything but the example it is,
> and its definition may not represent the views of formerly and
> currently colonised people in Texas.  The reference to Edward Said's
> bogus work Orientalism is more to my point.  Here we have
> 'practitioners' directing Said's farrago of malignant nonsense to the
> books they read as a 'crucial toolbox' -- plumbers one and all blocking
> their own drains.
>
> The Wikipedia definition is so broad, and at the same time so
> exclusionary and ideologically driven, that it is almost meaningless.
> The definition offered by Pamela is flabbier yet and includes race and
> gender, not to mention 'etc', the latter to allow for whatever the
> latest fashion may be among the 'practitioners' and high priests of
> this particular cult.
>
> The reason I have brought this up in the context of Bitter Lemons is to
> question what imperium we are talking about.  The major imperiums in
> this case are Ottoman and Byzantine.  And then there is the Venetian
> imperium, and the Arabo-Muslim assaults on and occupation of much of
> the Middle East and the Mediterranean.  Which is not to deny that there
> was a French or a British imperium, but my suspicion is that
> 'postcolonial' is very narrowly and parochially defined by certain
> self-aggrandising elitist groups, 'practitioners' of moribund
> ideologies.  Unfortunately academics are the chief purveyors of these
> mind-numbing tools.  Too often they fail to think, fail to be curious
> or original, and fail to stimulate thought, curiosity or originality
> among those they teach.  But they do write a lot of papers on hyphens,
> it appears.
>
> I have mentioned before that Durrell's experience of the Mediterranean,
> particularly the Eastern Mediterranean, has been an experience of
> post-Ottomanism.  Indeed it was a progression; as he moved from place
> to place he got deeper into the difficulties created by that Ottoman
> heritage.  It is not that I think such a thing is not relevant. It is
> very relevant indeed.  Rather that I suspect that it goes unrecognised
> by so-called postcolonialists whose historical and cultural awareness
> begins somewhere around 1948 and is no wider than a campus.
>
> :Michael
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:51:29 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- epithets
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <218A962E-2ECB-11DC-962D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> The recurring theme of the epithets is the mix of peoples on Cyprus,
> going back to neolithic times, and how they each seek advantage over
> the other.  A benefit of an imperial system is that it prevents or
> mitigates such advantage seeking and its destructive effects.  Bitter
> Lemons is a lament for the passing of imperiums, as Durrell makes clear
> with his references to Byzantium, the Venetian Empire, the Ottoman
> Empire and the British Empire -- and with his references to the lies
> and murders that erupt on the island in the name of nationalism, or
> what some might call 'postcolonialism'.
>
> :Michael
>
>
> On Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 04:28  am, slighcl wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have thoughts about Durrell's use of epigraphs in Bitter
>> Lemons?
>>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:49:31 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons - a black patch, a watch key and a
> couple of dispossessed wedding rings
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <3D43CDE3-2ED3-11DC-962D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> Leaving the external situation to one side, there is also Durrell's
> personal situation on Cyprus that he alludes to very strongly
> throughout, though alludes to more by silences framed by incomplete
> statements.  The book begins and ends with mention of 'my daughter'.
> We know how he manages to look after his daughter because he mentions
> 'my mother'.  But there is no mention of the daughter's mother, though
> there is an unexplained reference to a lunatic asylum at the beginning
> of the book.  Then there is Marie, but nothing ever happens with Marie.
>  There are ruminative moments when Durrell considers his future, but he
> excludes any references to women from these scenes; nevertheless one
> suspects that a woman is involved, and her name is not Marie.  Together
> with the heavy drinking, this might strike a reader as odd; it might
> strike a reader as significant.  This island of bitter lemons, as
> Durrell writes in his poem, 'Tortures memory and revises / Habits half
> a lifetime dead'.  As Durrell packs to leave the island he finds the
> old wicker basket 'full of fragments collected by my daughter' (not
> mentioning that his daughter has already been taken from him by the
> woman previously associated with the lunatic asylum).  'Roman glass,
> blue and vitreous as the summer sea in deep places; handles of amphorae
> from Salamis with the hallmark thumb printed in the soft clay; tiles
> from the floor of the villa near Paphos; verde antico fragments; Venus'
> ear seashells; a Victorian penny; fragments of yellow mosaic from some
> Byzantine church; purple murex; desiccated sea urchins and white chalk
> squid bones; a tibia; fragments of a bird's egg; a green stone against
> the evil eye.  All in all a sort of record of our stay in Cyprus' -- 
> the lonely objects that are the falling empires of a man's life.
> '"Throw all this away", I said.'
>
> :Michael
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:57:29 +0100
> From: "Richard Pine" <richardpin at eircom.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Message-ID: <014801c7c2e1$1e695c40$6d8ce9d5 at rpinelaptop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> May I recommend Leila Gandhi's basic textbook on Postcolonial Theory (not
> sure whether there's a hyphen or not, I suspect not)? It's short,
> intelligent and intelligible, altho I suppose that, written by someone of
> Indian origin it suggests a subaltern reading as opposed to a 
> post-imperial
> reading by someone from the imperium. RP
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Haag" <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 10:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
>
>
>>
>> Pamela wrote:
>>
>>>> Bill had recently asked about the hyphen which is sometimes and
>>>> sometimes
>>>> not employed in the term postcolonial.  There are pages and pages
>>>> written
>>>> about this, but in short, the word WITH the hyphen, that is,
>>>> post-colonial,
>>>> generally refers to the actual literature coming from formerly
>>>> colonized
>>>> nations.  For instance, Arundhati Roy, Chinua Achebe, Ngugi, etc., are
>>>> considered post-colonial writers.  However, without the hyphen it
>>>> refers to
>>>> the MUCH larger area of discussion surrounding issues of Empire,
>>>> decolonization, race, neocolonization, gender, etc. and so forth, all
>>>> of
>>>> which, according to most contributors on this list serve, seem not to
>>>> have
>>>> any relation to literature worth discussing...
>>
>> I bet that pages and pages have indeed been written about the hyphens
>> in this matter.  I cannot see that it matters a whit.  Not that there
>> is even agreement with the distinction that Pamela offers above.
>> Wikipedia for example is indifferent:
>>
>> 'Postcolonialism (also known as postcolonial theory, or spelled with a
>> hyphen) refers to a set of theories in philosophy, film and literature
>> that grapple with the legacy of colonial rule. As a literary theory or
>> critical approach, it deals with literature produced in countries that
>> were once colonies of other countries, especially the major European
>> colonial powers Britain, France and Spain; in some contexts, it may
>> include also countries still under colonial arrangements. It may also
>> deal with literature written in or by citizens of colonizing countries
>> that takes colonies or their peoples as its subject matter. People from
>> colonized countries, especially the British Empire, came to
>> universities in Britain; their access to education that was then still
>> unavailable in the colonies opened a new criticism, mostly in
>> literature, especially in novels. Postcolonial theory became part of
>> the critical toolbox in the 1970s, and many practitioners take Edward
>> Said's book Orientalism to be the theory's founding work.'
>>
>> Not that I am holding up Wikipedia as anything but the example it is,
>> and its definition may not represent the views of formerly and
>> currently colonised people in Texas.  The reference to Edward Said's
>> bogus work Orientalism is more to my point.  Here we have
>> 'practitioners' directing Said's farrago of malignant nonsense to the
>> books they read as a 'crucial toolbox' -- plumbers one and all blocking
>> their own drains.
>>
>> The Wikipedia definition is so broad, and at the same time so
>> exclusionary and ideologically driven, that it is almost meaningless.
>> The definition offered by Pamela is flabbier yet and includes race and
>> gender, not to mention 'etc', the latter to allow for whatever the
>> latest fashion may be among the 'practitioners' and high priests of
>> this particular cult.
>>
>> The reason I have brought this up in the context of Bitter Lemons is to
>> question what imperium we are talking about.  The major imperiums in
>> this case are Ottoman and Byzantine.  And then there is the Venetian
>> imperium, and the Arabo-Muslim assaults on and occupation of much of
>> the Middle East and the Mediterranean.  Which is not to deny that there
>> was a French or a British imperium, but my suspicion is that
>> 'postcolonial' is very narrowly and parochially defined by certain
>> self-aggrandising elitist groups, 'practitioners' of moribund
>> ideologies.  Unfortunately academics are the chief purveyors of these
>> mind-numbing tools.  Too often they fail to think, fail to be curious
>> or original, and fail to stimulate thought, curiosity or originality
>> among those they teach.  But they do write a lot of papers on hyphens,
>> it appears.
>>
>> I have mentioned before that Durrell's experience of the Mediterranean,
>> particularly the Eastern Mediterranean, has been an experience of
>> post-Ottomanism.  Indeed it was a progression; as he moved from place
>> to place he got deeper into the difficulties created by that Ottoman
>> heritage.  It is not that I think such a thing is not relevant. It is
>> very relevant indeed.  Rather that I suspect that it goes unrecognised
>> by so-called postcolonialists whose historical and cultural awareness
>> begins somewhere around 1948 and is no wider than a campus.
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 09:37:03 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <46938B7F.50606 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On 7/10/2007 5:19 AM, Michael Haag wrote:
>
>>my suspicion is that
>>'postcolonial' is very narrowly and parochially defined by certain
>>self-aggrandising elitist groups, 'practitioners' of moribund
>>ideologies.  Unfortunately academics are the chief purveyors of these
>>mind-numbing tools.  Too often they fail to think, fail to be curious
>>or original, and fail to stimulate thought, curiosity or originality
>>among those they teach.  But they do write a lot of papers on hyphens,
>>it appears.
>>
> I suspect that, like all human endeavors, some good work and some bad
> work has been done in postcolonial studies.  I encourage anyone with a
> working knowledge of postcolonial studies to give us some brief,
> specific examples of its particular, original strengths.  The more that
> these points might connect to the writings and the life of Lawrence
> Durrell, our subject here on the listserv, the better.
>
> Charles
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 09:58:37 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- epigraphs
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <4693908D.1000801 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On 7/10/2007 5:51 AM, Michael Haag wrote:
>
>> The recurring theme of the epithets is the mix of peoples on Cyprus,
>> going back to neolithic times, and how they each seek advantage over
>> the other.
>
> I believe that the epigraphs are interesting in themselves--as formal
> features of the book, working in concert or in choric commentary with
> the text of the chapters to which they are attached.  And I do find
> interesting Michael's point about the heterogeneous nature of the
> peoples of Cyprus.
>
> If Kipling had written on Cyprus, he would have used a similar technique
> as these Durrellian epigraphs in order to carry a point quite like
> Michael's about imperium and heterogeneity.  One need only glance at the
> chapters of /Kim /and at any of Kipling's short stories to be reminded
> of that.  Kipling was so very fond of proverbial wisdom and knowing
> utterances (Oregon Legends, Hindi Proverbs, Troop Songs, graffiti,
> inscriptions upon tombs, &c.) that I am tempted to call the epigraphs in
> /Bitter Lemons/ a Kipling-esque technique.  But I will admit that is my
> own strong reading at work.
>
> When Kipling in /Kim /and George Eliot in /Middlemarch /use epigraphs,
> they tend to present epigraphs that work with some glancing irony,
> bringing up and highlighting for the reader the underlying strands of
> the story in the chapter.  Like a greek chorus, these epigraphs speak
> lift the specific situation of the events rehearsed within the chapter
> into universal categories--some deep truth about humankind.  A moral for
> the story.  Is this happening in /Bitter Lemons/?  Or are these
> epigraphs a Cypriot miscellany, gleanings lifted by our author from his
> notebook, interesting in themselves, but not deeply attached to the
> chapters?
>
> Charles
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:18:21 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- epigraphs
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <6976796C-2EF0-11DC-B977-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> All Durrell's proverbs are Greek Cypriot.  None are Turkish Cypriot.
>
> :Michael
>
>
> On Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 02:58  pm, slighcl wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I believe that the epigraphs are interesting in themselves--as formal
>> features of the book, working in concert or in choric commentary with
>> the text of the chapters to which they are attached.?
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:24:38 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: [ilds] Turkish proverb
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <4A287FF9-2EF1-11DC-92A5-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> (I know we have all heard it, indeed all practised it, but here it is
> anyway, just to make up the balance.)
>
>
> A woman for duty,
> A boy for pleasure,
> But a melon for ecstasy.
>
> - Old Turkish proverb
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:23:02 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- epigraphs
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <46939646.1050406 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 7/10/2007 10:18 AM, Michael Haag wrote:
>
>> All Durrell's proverbs are Greek Cypriot. None are Turkish Cypriot.
>
> Ahh. Interesting.  But for the larger selection of epigraphs, I note
> sources British, Turkish, Greek, Bulgarian, &c.
>
> Charles
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:34:38 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Epigraphs
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <469398FE.5070406 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On 7/10/2007 10:24 AM, Michael Haag wrote:
>
>> (I know we have all heard it, indeed all practised it, but here it is
>> anyway, just to make up the balance.)
>>
>> *
>> A woman for duty,
>> A boy for pleasure,
>> But a melon for ecstasy.
>>
>> - Old Turkish proverb *
>
> *Amazing proverb.  In a moment of lark, I wonder if this inspired the
> character known as the "melon-mounter" in Cormac McCarthy's /Suttree/?
>
> Some of these /Bitter Lemons/ epigraphs do come from British reports
> &c.  But the "folkishness" of the others interests me.  Is Durrell
> turning to the sayings of the people in order to tap some deep folk
> wisdom?  Or are we meant to see deep underlying prejudice, a deep
> history for the current problems depicted in /Bitter Lemons/?
>
> Again, Kipling comes to mind.  Kipling would have used epigraphs in both
> ways cited above.  Ultimately, however, he would have used them to
> demonstrate the knowingness of the native folk culture, and then above
> all to demonstrate his own knowingness of the native folk culture.   The
> moral throughout Kipling's stories is more that "human folly is eternal"
> than any attempt at higher politics.
>
> Charles
> *
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:39:20 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: [ilds] further Turkish proverbs
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <57EC1D86-2EF3-11DC-92A5-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Further Turkish proverbs:
>
> Nine out of ten men are women.
>
> For the birds that cannot soar, God has provided low branches.
>
> Sweet words lure the snake from his hole.
>
> Never tell the truth unless you already have one foot in the stirrup.
>
> God created serpents, rabbits and Armenians.
>
> Beware the dwarfs, for God has seen fit to strike them on the head.
>
> The thicker the veil, the less worth lifting.
>
> When the flood recedes, the mud remains.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:27:04 -0500
> From: "Pamela Francis" <albigensian at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <BAY108-F1863DB472276114BA6EB3BB0050 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> I would suggest, for general reading, Bill Ashcroft, Gareth Griffith, and
> Helen Tiffin's Post-Colonial Studies: the Key Concepts, Routledge, 1998. 
> It
> is quite handy and has an excellent entry on the 
> post-colonial/postcolonial
> issue.  Also, you can read the relevant material on Amazon books--I think
> Google has scanned the relevant pages too.
>
> As for po-co articles dealing with Durrell, you may want to refer to Diane
> Vipond's "A Postcolonial Reading of the Black Book" in Deus Loci 7, my own
> "'This Betraying Landscape': Shrinking Colonial Space in Durrell's
> Mountolive" in In-Between: Essays and Studies in Literature, 11.2, p.
> 277-90., Anne Zahlan's "Rhodes, Ruskin, and the Myth of Empire: Imperial
> Intertextuality in Durrell's Mountolive", Deus Loci 8.he review of another
> one of Ashcroft's books, Post-Colonial Transformation in Modern Language
> Review 97.2: 525-6 is also helpful.
>
> I stand by my usages--the hyphen in relation to time, non-hyphen for the
> theory.    I still think the hyphen is best used in reference to a
> particular time or location, whereas the non-hyphen use refers to the
> discourse itself.  --Pamela
>
>
>>From: "Vittorio Celentano" <vcel at ix.netcom.com>
>>Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
>>Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 18:02:48 -0400
>>
>>Pamela,
>>
>>Postcolonial seems to be more often used in literature than 
>>"post-colonial.
>>Please, refer to:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcolonial_literature
>>
>>Vittorio
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Pamela Francis" <albigensian at hotmail.com>
>>To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 3:56 PM
>>Subject: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
>>
>>
>> > Bill had recently asked about the hyphen which is sometimes and
>>sometimes
>> > not employed in the term postcolonial.  There are pages and pages
>>written
>> > about this, but in short, the word WITH the hyphen, that is,
>>post-colonial,
>> > generally refers to the actual literature coming from formerly 
>> > colonized
>> > nations.  For instance, Arundhati Roy, Chinua Achebe, Ngugi, etc., are
>> > considered post-colonial writers.  However, without the hyphen it 
>> > refers
>>to
>> > the MUCH larger area of discussion surrounding issues of Empire,
>> > decolonization, race, neocolonization, gender, etc. and so forth, all 
>> > of
>> > which, according to most contributors on this list serve, seem not to
>>have
>> > any relation to literature worth discussing...
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > ILDS mailing list
>> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>> >
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ILDS mailing list
>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:35:32 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- post- ("with such dexterity")
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <4693B554.4010800 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On 7/10/2007 11:27 AM, Pamela Francis wrote:
>
>>I would suggest, for general reading, Bill Ashcroft, Gareth Griffith, and
>>Helen Tiffin's Post-Colonial Studies: the Key Concepts, Routledge, 1998. 
>>It
>>is quite handy and has an excellent entry on the 
>>post-colonial/postcolonial
>>issue.  Also, you can read the relevant material on Amazon books--I think
>>Google has scanned the relevant pages too.
>>
> Okay, Pamela.  That is a bit more specific.  But could you offer a
> specific example or two of a postcolonial insight into "Voices at the
> Tavern Door"?    How do you or another postcolonial critic show us
> something new and valid about General Envy, Clito, Frangos, and Durrell?
>
> I make this request because, in truth, our discussion of this topic has
> failed to proceed beyond tit-for-tat assertions.  One camp says
> poscolonial "/does/."  One camp says postcolonial "/does not/."  That
> is, we are merely /telling/, not /showing/.  I would prefer to find
> someone showing us in the most concrete terms possible how a
> postcolonial reading brings new light to /Bitter Lemons/.   Perhaps a
> highly-particularized working analysis of the encounter between Durrell
> and Frangos could help us judge better?
>
> I do not mean to put you on the spot, Pamela.  But then by your email
> and your article I judge that you have made a recent tour of
> postcolonial scholarship.   Help to show us what is what in "Voices at
> the Tavern Door."
>
> Any other contributions are welcome and appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Charles
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 26
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:43:03 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <A0D0FABC-2F04-11DC-92A5-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> Pamela:
>
> Thank you for the leads.  But my heart has immediately sunk when
> looking at the very first one you mentioned, the so-called postcolonial
> reading of the Black Book.  This confirms my worst fears about the
> inbuilt ideology of the concept.
>
> :Michael
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 04:27  pm, Pamela Francis wrote:
>
>> I would suggest, for general reading, Bill Ashcroft, Gareth Griffith,
>> and
>> Helen Tiffin's Post-Colonial Studies: the Key Concepts, Routledge,
>> 1998.  It
>> is quite handy and has an excellent entry on the
>> post-colonial/postcolonial
>> issue.  Also, you can read the relevant material on Amazon books--I
>> think
>> Google has scanned the relevant pages too.
>>
>> As for po-co articles dealing with Durrell, you may want to refer to
>> Diane
>> Vipond's "A Postcolonial Reading of the Black Book" in Deus Loci 7, my
>> own
>> "'This Betraying Landscape': Shrinking Colonial Space in Durrell's
>> Mountolive" in In-Between: Essays and Studies in Literature, 11.2, p.
>> 277-90., Anne Zahlan's "Rhodes, Ruskin, and the Myth of Empire:
>> Imperial
>> Intertextuality in Durrell's Mountolive", Deus Loci 8.he review of
>> another
>> one of Ashcroft's books, Post-Colonial Transformation in Modern
>> Language
>> Review 97.2: 525-6 is also helpful.
>>
>> I stand by my usages--the hyphen in relation to time, non-hyphen for
>> the
>> theory.    I still think the hyphen is best used in reference to a
>> particular time or location, whereas the non-hyphen use refers to the
>> discourse itself.  --Pamela
>>
>>
>>> From: "Vittorio Celentano" <vcel at ix.netcom.com>
>>> Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 18:02:48 -0400
>>>
>>> Pamela,
>>>
>>> Postcolonial seems to be more often used in literature than
>>> "post-colonial.
>>> Please, refer to:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcolonial_literature
>>>
>>> Vittorio
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Pamela Francis" <albigensian at hotmail.com>
>>> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 3:56 PM
>>> Subject: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Bill had recently asked about the hyphen which is sometimes and
>>> sometimes
>>>> not employed in the term postcolonial.  There are pages and pages
>>> written
>>>> about this, but in short, the word WITH the hyphen, that is,
>>> post-colonial,
>>>> generally refers to the actual literature coming from formerly
>>>> colonized
>>>> nations.  For instance, Arundhati Roy, Chinua Achebe, Ngugi, etc.,
>>>> are
>>>> considered post-colonial writers.  However, without the hyphen it
>>>> refers
>>> to
>>>> the MUCH larger area of discussion surrounding issues of Empire,
>>>> decolonization, race, neocolonization, gender, etc. and so forth,
>>>> all of
>>>> which, according to most contributors on this list serve, seem not to
>>> have
>>>> any relation to literature worth discussing...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ILDS mailing list
>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 27
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:36:19 -0400
> From: "Vittorio Celentano" <vcel at ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Message-ID: <002001c7c310$720b8880$ed525645 at vittoriohx7smy>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Pamela,
>
> I think the Encyclopedia Britannica settles the postcolonial and
> post-colonial question as in:
> http://www.britannica.com/search?query=postcolonial+&submit=Find&source=MWTEXT
>
> Vittorio
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Pamela Francis" <albigensian at hotmail.com>
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 11:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
>
>
>> I would suggest, for general reading, Bill Ashcroft, Gareth Griffith, and
>> Helen Tiffin's Post-Colonial Studies: the Key Concepts, Routledge, 1998.
> It
>> is quite handy and has an excellent entry on the
> post-colonial/postcolonial
>> issue.  Also, you can read the relevant material on Amazon books--I think
>> Google has scanned the relevant pages too.
>>
>> As for po-co articles dealing with Durrell, you may want to refer to 
>> Diane
>> Vipond's "A Postcolonial Reading of the Black Book" in Deus Loci 7, my 
>> own
>> "'This Betraying Landscape': Shrinking Colonial Space in Durrell's
>> Mountolive" in In-Between: Essays and Studies in Literature, 11.2, p.
>> 277-90., Anne Zahlan's "Rhodes, Ruskin, and the Myth of Empire: Imperial
>> Intertextuality in Durrell's Mountolive", Deus Loci 8.he review of 
>> another
>> one of Ashcroft's books, Post-Colonial Transformation in Modern Language
>> Review 97.2: 525-6 is also helpful.
>>
>> I stand by my usages--the hyphen in relation to time, non-hyphen for the
>> theory.    I still think the hyphen is best used in reference to a
>> particular time or location, whereas the non-hyphen use refers to the
>> discourse itself.  --Pamela
>>
>>
>> >From: "Vittorio Celentano" <vcel at ix.netcom.com>
>> >Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> >To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>> >Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
>> >Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 18:02:48 -0400
>> >
>> >Pamela,
>> >
>> >Postcolonial seems to be more often used in literature than
> "post-colonial.
>> >Please, refer to:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcolonial_literature
>> >
>> >Vittorio
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Pamela Francis" <albigensian at hotmail.com>
>> >To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>> >Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 3:56 PM
>> >Subject: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
>> >
>> >
>> > > Bill had recently asked about the hyphen which is sometimes and
>> >sometimes
>> > > not employed in the term postcolonial.  There are pages and pages
>> >written
>> > > about this, but in short, the word WITH the hyphen, that is,
>> >post-colonial,
>> > > generally refers to the actual literature coming from formerly
> colonized
>> > > nations.  For instance, Arundhati Roy, Chinua Achebe, Ngugi, etc., 
>> > > are
>> > > considered post-colonial writers.  However, without the hyphen it
> refers
>> >to
>> > > the MUCH larger area of discussion surrounding issues of Empire,
>> > > decolonization, race, neocolonization, gender, etc. and so forth, all
> of
>> > > which, according to most contributors on this list serve, seem not to
>> >have
>> > > any relation to literature worth discussing...
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > ILDS mailing list
>> > > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> > > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>> > >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >ILDS mailing list
>> >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 28
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:46:33 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- post- ("with such dexterity")
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <1D893B1E-2F05-11DC-92A5-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Actually, apart from saying postcolonial theory is crap, I have also
> directed attention to ugly women, hermaphrodites, the ecstasy of
> melons, the avoidance of dwarfs, insanity, bombs, terrorism, empires
> (several), seashells, wedding rings, drunkeness, etc, etc.  And what
> comes back is choric motifs!  This is a book about a man's experience
> of life, and nobody wants to get close to that life.
>
> :Michael
>
>
> On Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 05:35  pm, slighcl wrote:
>
>> On 7/10/2007 11:27 AM, Pamela Francis wrote:
>>
>> I would suggest, for general reading, Bill Ashcroft, Gareth Griffith,
>> and
>> Helen Tiffin's Post-Colonial Studies: the Key Concepts, Routledge,
>> 1998.  It
>> is quite handy and has an excellent entry on the
>> post-colonial/postcolonial
>> issue.  Also, you can read the relevant material on Amazon books--I
>> think
>> Google has scanned the relevant pages too.
>>
>> Okay, Pamela.? That is a bit more specific.? But could you offer a
>> specific example or two of a postcolonial insight into "Voices at the
>> Tavern Door"???? How do you or another postcolonial critic show us
>> something new and valid about General Envy, Clito, Frangos, and
>> Durrell???
>>
>> I make this request because, in truth, our discussion of this topic
>> has failed to proceed beyond tit-for-tat assertions.? One camp says
>> poscolonial "does."? One camp says postcolonial "does not."? That is,
>> we are merely telling, not showing.? I would prefer to find someone
>> showing us in the most concrete terms possible how a postcolonial
>> reading brings new light to Bitter Lemons. ? Perhaps a
>> highly-particularized working analysis of the encounter between
>> Durrell and Frangos could help us judge better?
>>
>> I do not mean to put you on the spot, Pamela.? But then by your email
>> and your article I judge that you have made a recent tour of
>> postcolonial scholarship.?? Help to show us what is what in "Voices at
>> the Tavern Door."
>>
>> Any other contributions are welcome and appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> -- 
>> **********************
>> Charles L. Sligh
>> Department of English
>> Wake Forest University
>> slighcl at wfu.edu
>> **********************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 29
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:08:10 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons - throwaways and epigraphs
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID:
> <28038191.1184087290695.JavaMail.root at elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Michael's descripion of "Durrell's personal situation on Cyprus" may be 
> viewed as the underlying structure of the narrative, or the "subtext" in 
> today's critical jargon.  It's interesting how Durrell distracts the 
> reader from that subject matter.  Epigraphs aid in that deception, in my 
> view.  They set the tone, a deceptive one.  His sources are mainly local 
> proverbs, historical accounts, travel literature, and even a "colonial 
> report."  They introduce the chapters, but they do not end the book, 
> rather a controlled and yet highly personal poem concludes.  The epigraphs 
> give authority to the author.  You credit him for coming up with all that 
> divergent material, especially the proverbs, which you assume are his own 
> translations of the Greek.  He must have worked hard to collect all that 
> material (unless he had a compendium of Greek sayings alongside his copy 
> of Mrs. Lewis).  But he doesn't describe his field techniques, so he gives 
> the appearance of an anthropologist diligentl!
> y putting together a book on "the true Mediterranean moeurs" (p. 34). 
> That makes him seem objective and detached.  It also adds to the book's 
> humor -- the staid observer, cigarette smoking, if not pipe smoking, 
> studying the foibles of his subjects.  All the while other things about 
> his personal life are rampaging below the surface -- and those result in 
> Justine.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>Sent: Jul 10, 2007 3:49 AM
>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons - a black patch, a watch key and a couple of 
>>dispossessed wedding rings
>>
>>Leaving the external situation to one side, there is also Durrell's
>>personal situation on Cyprus that he alludes to very strongly
>>throughout, though alludes to more by silences framed by incomplete
>>statements.  The book begins and ends with mention of 'my daughter'.
>>We know how he manages to look after his daughter because he mentions
>>'my mother'.  But there is no mention of the daughter's mother, though
>>there is an unexplained reference to a lunatic asylum at the beginning
>>of the book.  Then there is Marie, but nothing ever happens with Marie.
>>  There are ruminative moments when Durrell considers his future, but he
>>excludes any references to women from these scenes; nevertheless one
>>suspects that a woman is involved, and her name is not Marie.  Together
>>with the heavy drinking, this might strike a reader as odd; it might
>>strike a reader as significant.  This island of bitter lemons, as
>>Durrell writes in his poem, 'Tortures memory and revises / Habits half
>>a lifetime dead'.  As Durrell packs to leave the island he finds the
>>old wicker basket 'full of fragments collected by my daughter' (not
>>mentioning that his daughter has already been taken from him by the
>>woman previously associated with the lunatic asylum).  'Roman glass,
>>blue and vitreous as the summer sea in deep places; handles of amphorae
>>from Salamis with the hallmark thumb printed in the soft clay; tiles
>>from the floor of the villa near Paphos; verde antico fragments; Venus'
>>ear seashells; a Victorian penny; fragments of yellow mosaic from some
>>Byzantine church; purple murex; desiccated sea urchins and white chalk
>>squid bones; a tibia; fragments of a bird's egg; a green stone against
>>the evil eye.  All in all a sort of record of our stay in Cyprus' -- 
>>the lonely objects that are the falling empires of a man's life.
>>'"Throw all this away", I said.'
>>
>>:Michael
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 30
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:09:22 -0500
> From: "Pamela Francis" <albigensian at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- post- ("with such dexterity")
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <BAY108-F21C5C0527B83B06D0558DAB0050 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> Charles--I will be happy to comply, although I am presently working 8 
> hours
> a day, then coming home to read (for another 6 or so hours) any one of the
> 87 books and articles on my comprehensive exams list, which must be
> completed by Sept. 17.  But I actually presented a postcolonial reading of
> Bitter Lemons at Louisville a few years ago--but now that I think about 
> it,
> you were mightily sick and didn't make it to the panel--maybe I can dig it
> out, again in my copious free time.
>
> I knew I would get sucked into this list serve if I ever started...I'm not
> sure how you guys find the time to post so often...I felt guilty all 
> weekend
> for spending time trying to make a simple point.  And now, a boss is 
> looking
> over my shoulder.  But when I go home I will do my best to demonstrate 
> that
> a po-co reading of a work of literature does no more disservice to it than
> applying the author's personal life (divorces, etc.) to the text. --Pamela
>
>
>>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>>Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- post- ("with such dexterity")
>>Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:35:32 -0400
>>
>>On 7/10/2007 11:27 AM, Pamela Francis wrote:
>>
>>>I would suggest, for general reading, Bill Ashcroft, Gareth Griffith, and
>>>Helen Tiffin's Post-Colonial Studies: the Key Concepts, Routledge, 1998.
>>>It is quite handy and has an excellent entry on the
>>>post-colonial/postcolonial issue.  Also, you can read the relevant
>>>material on Amazon books--I think Google has scanned the relevant pages
>>>too.
>>>
>>Okay, Pamela.  That is a bit more specific.  But could you offer a 
>>specific
>>example or two of a postcolonial insight into "Voices at the Tavern Door"?
>>   How do you or another postcolonial critic show us something new and
>>valid about General Envy, Clito, Frangos, and Durrell?
>>
>>I make this request because, in truth, our discussion of this topic has
>>failed to proceed beyond tit-for-tat assertions.  One camp says 
>>poscolonial
>>"/does/."  One camp says postcolonial "/does not/."  That is, we are 
>>merely
>>/telling/, not /showing/.  I would prefer to find someone showing us in 
>>the
>>most concrete terms possible how a postcolonial reading brings new light 
>>to
>>/Bitter Lemons/.   Perhaps a highly-particularized working analysis of the
>>encounter between Durrell and Frangos could help us judge better?
>>
>>I do not mean to put you on the spot, Pamela.  But then by your email and
>>your article I judge that you have made a recent tour of postcolonial
>>scholarship.   Help to show us what is what in "Voices at the Tavern 
>>Door."
>>
>>Any other contributions are welcome and appreciated.
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>Charles
>>
>>--
>>**********************
>>Charles L. Sligh
>>Department of English
>>Wake Forest University
>>slighcl at wfu.edu
>>**********************
>>
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ILDS mailing list
>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 31
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:24:22 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- General Envy
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <4693C0C6.5040504 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On 7/10/2007 12:46 PM, Michael Haag wrote:
>
>>         This is a book about a man's experience of life, and nobody
>>         wants to get close to that life.
>
> Does Durrell let us get close to that life in /Bitter Lemons/?   Durrell
> cetrainly gives us a striking sense of the life.  All of these stories
> make up his "impressionistic study," as he calls /Bitter Lemons/.   I
> think that the historical or biographical life is on the other side of
> those impressions.  Bruce has written at length that he thinks that
> Durrell is dodging his readers, putting up shadows.  Michael has already
> written about the strange hints at a "daughter."  Shadows, impressions,
> hints, what have you.
>
> Bruce can tell us more about what is behind Durrell's game of
> diversions.  (His latest post on Durrell's anthropological strategies
> does this, I think.)  Until then, I will offer another specific
> "shadow":  General Envy.
>
> I will be pleased to learn that in fact General Envy was based upon
> someone in the real world.  Was he real?   I wonder.  Someone knows, I
> suppose.  Whatever the case, General Envy marks why we are not reading
> straight history.  If General Envy was not invented or renamed by
> Durrell, then I will celebrate his tobacco-stained moustache in another
> way.  But if General Envy is "based" upon a real person and then renamed
> "Envy," then with that name Durrell has given him additional layers of
> significance beyond a straight record of historical life.   Envy's name
> suggests that he is woven from the stuff of Allegory.   Really, the name
> is too good to be true.
>
> I think that the anecdote about Manoli & General Envy shows us something
> about /Bitter Lemons/.  Durrell presents this recollection as a
> highly-compressed version of what has happened elsewhere between himself
> and the taxi driver.  "That is what happened /whenever /Briton and
> Cypriot met, even to exchange the merest civility."   I am supposing
> that this last unversal declaration applies to Manoli's change of heart,
> not to Manoli's rolling eyes and nodding head!
>
> Charles
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 32
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:32:55 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- "to post with such dexterity"
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <4693C2C7.500 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On 7/10/2007 1:09 PM, Pamela Francis wrote:
>
>>Charles--I will be happy to comply, although I am presently working 8 
>>hours
>>a day, then coming home to read (for another 6 or so hours) any one of the
>>87 books and articles on my comprehensive exams list, which must be
>>completed by Sept. 17.  But I actually presented a postcolonial reading of
>>Bitter Lemons at Louisville a few years ago--but now that I think about 
>>it,
>>you were mightily sick and didn't make it to the panel--maybe I can dig it
>>out, again in my copious free time.
>>
>>I knew I would get sucked into this list serve if I ever started...I'm not
>>sure how you guys find the time to post so often...I felt guilty all 
>>weekend
>>for spending time trying to make a simple point.  And now, a boss is 
>>looking
>>over my shoulder.  But when I go home I will do my best to demonstrate 
>>that
>>a po-co reading of a work of literature does no more disservice to it than
>>applying the author's personal life (divorces, etc.) to the text. --Pamela
>>
> Thank you for promising to post on things post---, Pamela.  Yes.  I
> recall that time at Louisville.  A bad little bug that year, indeed.
> And I recall Jamie stepping up and filling in.  Thanks again, Jamie.  No
> worries that it might happen again.  These days, whenever I travel to
> Louisville, I always bring along a doctor--Dr. William Lee.
>
> You mention that you fear "sucking in."  Well, I certainly hope that
> reading and talking about Durrell will never come to be seen as a burden
> or as a crime.  O those dark Satanic Mills of the Academy.    Straight
> out of Blake, really.
>
>        Bring me my bow of burning gold:
>        Bring me my arrows of desire:
>        Bring me my spear: O clouds unfold!
>        Bring me my chariot of fire.
>
>        I will not cease from mental fight,
>        Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
>        Till we have built Jerusalem
>        In England's green and pleasant land.
>
> C&c.
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> Message: 33
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:45:02 -0400
> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID:
> <20070710174500.YBWE3027.gx5.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Thanks, Pamela.
>
> At 11:27 AM 7/10/2007, you wrote:
>>I would suggest, for general reading, Bill Ashcroft, Gareth Griffith, and
>>Helen Tiffin's Post-Colonial Studies: the Key Concepts, Routledge, 1998. 
>>It
>>is quite handy and has an excellent entry on the 
>>post-colonial/postcolonial
>>issue.  Also, you can read the relevant material on Amazon books--I think
>>Google has scanned the relevant pages too.
>>
>>As for po-co articles dealing with Durrell, you may want to refer to Diane
>>Vipond's "A Postcolonial Reading of the Black Book" in Deus Loci 7, my own
>>"'This Betraying Landscape': Shrinking Colonial Space in Durrell's
>>Mountolive" in In-Between: Essays and Studies in Literature, 11.2, p.
>>277-90., Anne Zahlan's "Rhodes, Ruskin, and the Myth of Empire: Imperial
>>Intertextuality in Durrell's Mountolive", Deus Loci 8.he review of another
>>one of Ashcroft's books, Post-Colonial Transformation in Modern Language
>>Review 97.2: 525-6 is also helpful.
>>
>>I stand by my usages--the hyphen in relation to time, non-hyphen for the
>>theory.    I still think the hyphen is best used in reference to a
>>particular time or location, whereas the non-hyphen use refers to the
>>discourse itself.  --Pamela
>>
>>
>> >From: "Vittorio Celentano" <vcel at ix.netcom.com>
>> >Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> >To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>> >Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
>> >Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 18:02:48 -0400
>> >
>> >Pamela,
>> >
>> >Postcolonial seems to be more often used in literature than 
>> >"post-colonial.
>> >Please, refer to:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcolonial_literature
>> >
>> >Vittorio
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Pamela Francis" <albigensian at hotmail.com>
>> >To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>> >Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 3:56 PM
>> >Subject: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
>> >
>> >
>> > > Bill had recently asked about the hyphen which is sometimes and
>> >sometimes
>> > > not employed in the term postcolonial.  There are pages and pages
>> >written
>> > > about this, but in short, the word WITH the hyphen, that is,
>> >post-colonial,
>> > > generally refers to the actual literature coming from formerly 
>> > > colonized
>> > > nations.  For instance, Arundhati Roy, Chinua Achebe, Ngugi, etc., 
>> > > are
>> > > considered post-colonial writers.  However, without the hyphen it 
>> > > refers
>> >to
>> > > the MUCH larger area of discussion surrounding issues of Empire,
>> > > decolonization, race, neocolonization, gender, etc. and so forth, all 
>> > > of
>> > > which, according to most contributors on this list serve, seem not to
>> >have
>> > > any relation to literature worth discussing...
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > ILDS mailing list
>> > > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> > > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>> > >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >ILDS mailing list
>> >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ILDS mailing list
>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> ***************************************
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English         *
> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> 513-281-5927
> ***************************************
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 34
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:51:31 -0400
> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- General Envy
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID:
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 35
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:41:19 +0100
> From: "Richard Pine" <richardpin at eircom.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Message-ID: <007701c7c321$ea7a01f0$e4471359 at rpinelaptop>
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>
> OK here goes - the irish playwright Brian Friel opened a 1960s play, 'The 
> Mundy Scheme' with a direct address to the audience: 'Ladies and 
> Gentlemen, what happens to an emerging country after it has emerged?' That 
> question, to me , is the kernel of the postcolonial situation:
> 1) how does a recently independent country (one hesitates to say 'nation') 
> find its feet?
> 2) how does its relationship to the former coloniser change (from the 
> perspective of bothe colonised and coloniser)?
> 3) if it is a former English colony, how does the continued use of english 
> (lower case intended) fit in with other cultural imperatives of the new 
> state (I'm thinking particularly of India in and around 1947)
> 4) How is the new state (which was previously perceived by others as a 
> colony/imperial possession) perceived as it begins to exercise its 
> freedom?
> I dont entirely dismiss Said's orientalism, because what he did in 
> polarising east-west perceptions was necessary at the time, and requires 
> substantial revision in the light of subsequent studies.
> Yes there has been good p-c or 'poco' work - I would cite Homi Bhabha as a 
> good example, and the readings by three Australians whose names escape me 
> ('The Empire Writes Back') I think one was called Ashcroft. And there has 
> been polemical, recriminatory, bitter writing from former colonised which 
> I can sympathise with even if I dont accept it.
> Post-col is to me more interesting than resistance literature (Cabral etc) 
> because it comes out of a new experience - the experience of freedom which 
> is baffling and, of course, frequently leads to civil war very shortly 
> after independence (Ireland, Finland) or after liberation (Greece).
> Cyprus, like Corfu, has layers of imperial experience, which makes it both 
> challenging and stimulating to study - like an emotional as well as a 
> cultural palimpsest, and I think LD was fully aware of the tensions of 
> such when living in Cyprus and subsequnetly writing about it - certainly 
> his notebooks demonstrate his terribly mixed feelings when his 
> philhellenism crashed into his professional work as a Brit civil servant.
> Does any of this make sense?
> RP
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: slighcl
>  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>  Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 2:37 PM
>  Subject: Re: [ilds] hyphens and posts...
>
>
>  On 7/10/2007 5:19 AM, Michael Haag wrote:
>
> my suspicion is that
> 'postcolonial' is very narrowly and parochially defined by certain
> self-aggrandising elitist groups, 'practitioners' of moribund
> ideologies.  Unfortunately academics are the chief purveyors of these
> mind-numbing tools.  Too often they fail to think, fail to be curious
> or original, and fail to stimulate thought, curiosity or originality
> among those they teach.  But they do write a lot of papers on hyphens,
> it appears.I suspect that, like all human endeavors, some good work and 
> some bad work has been done in postcolonial studies.  I encourage anyone 
> with a working knowledge of postcolonial studies to give us some brief, 
> specific examples of its particular, original strengths.  The more that 
> these points might connect to the writings and the life of Lawrence 
> Durrell, our subject here on the listserv, the better.
>
>  Charles
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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> Message: 36
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:43:28 +0100
> From: "Richard Pine" <richardpin at eircom.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Turkish proverb
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Message-ID: <009601c7c322$37f90700$e4471359 at rpinelaptop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> You've left out the goat.The last line provided the title for John Wells's 
> 60s (?) book about a tree-lover who was preceded by - yes - a woodpecker 
> who created the necessary orifice.
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: Michael Haag
>  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>  Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 3:24 PM
>  Subject: [ilds] Turkish proverb
>
>
>  (I know we have all heard it, indeed all practised it, but here it is 
> anyway, just to make up the balance.)
>
>
>  A woman for duty,
>  A boy for pleasure,
>  But a melon for ecstasy.
>
>  - Old Turkish proverb
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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> Message: 37
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:49:06 +0100
> From: "Richard Pine" <richardpin at eircom.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- post- ("with such dexterity")
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Message-ID: <00c301c7c323$005c2920$e4471359 at rpinelaptop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> There is no such thing as post-colonial theory, only the application of 
> ideas from one part of society to those of another. Anyone could, I 
> suppose, elucidate a theory from doing so, but what use would it be? It 
> would be - wait for it! - purely theoretical. What I said in a previous 
> message a few minutes ago was that the value of postcolonial studies is in 
> the practical evidence they provide of how a new, independent, former 
> colony exercises its freedom.
> RP
> PS - the women members (!) of this group need not answer the following, 
> altho their 'take' on it would certainly be different, but has anyone 
> actually tried it with a melon (and how did the melon react? anger, 
> bitterness, resistance?)
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: Michael Haag
>  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>  Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 5:46 PM
>  Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- post- ("with such dexterity")
>
>
>  Actually, apart from saying postcolonial theory is crap, I have also 
> directed attention to ugly women, hermaphrodites, the ecstasy of melons, 
> the avoidance of dwarfs, insanity, bombs, terrorism, empires (several), 
> seashells, wedding rings, drunkeness, etc, etc. And what comes back is 
> choric motifs! This is a book about a man's experience of life, and nobody 
> wants to get close to that life.
>
>  :Michael
>
>
>  On Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 05:35 pm, slighcl wrote:
>
>
>    On 7/10/2007 11:27 AM, Pamela Francis wrote:
>
>    I would suggest, for general reading, Bill Ashcroft, Gareth Griffith, 
> and
>    Helen Tiffin's Post-Colonial Studies: the Key Concepts, Routledge, 
> 1998. It
>    is quite handy and has an excellent entry on the 
> post-colonial/postcolonial
>    issue. Also, you can read the relevant material on Amazon books--I 
> think
>    Google has scanned the relevant pages too.
>
>    Okay, Pamela.  That is a bit more specific.  But could you offer a 
> specific example or two of a postcolonial insight into "Voices at the 
> Tavern Door"?    How do you or another postcolonial critic show us 
> something new and valid about General Envy, Clito, Frangos, and Durrell?
>
>    I make this request because, in truth, our discussion of this topic has 
> failed to proceed beyond tit-for-tat assertions.  One camp says 
> poscolonial "does."  One camp says postcolonial "does not."  That is, we 
> are merely telling, not showing.  I would prefer to find someone showing 
> us in the most concrete terms possible how a postcolonial reading brings 
> new light to Bitter Lemons.   Perhaps a highly-particularized working 
> analysis of the encounter between Durrell and Frangos could help us judge 
> better?
>
>    I do not mean to put you on the spot, Pamela.  But then by your email 
> and your article I judge that you have made a recent tour of postcolonial 
> scholarship.   Help to show us what is what in "Voices at the Tavern 
> Door."
>
>    Any other contributions are welcome and appreciated.
>
>    Thanks!
>
>    Charles
>
>    -- 
>    **********************
>    Charles L. Sligh
>    Department of English
>    Wake Forest University
>    slighcl at wfu.edu
>    **********************
>
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>
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