From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Jul  2 07:17:48 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 07:17:48 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
Message-ID: <2158702.1183385868338.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Yes, this is a good assessment of Bitter Lemons.  It's also my favorite of the travel books, mainly because of the story, as the Greens describe.  But now that Durrell's fictive approach to non-fiction has been exposed, I wonder about the opening in Venice.  Did he actually start his journey in la Serenissima or was it bit of invention -- a nod towards the beginning of Othello and the tragedy both the Moor and Durrell encounter on Cyprus?

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Denise Tart & David Green <dtart at bigpond.net.au>
>Sent: Jul 1, 2007 9:14 PM
>To: Durrel <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>
>Bitter lemons is quite different from Reflections and Prospero and shows a maturing writer growing in power. The history and culture and personality of the island is infered through character, landscape and events rather than directly described in specific chapters devoted to that purpose. I also think that in Reflections and Prospero Durrell was essentially reacting to landscape and manners rather than to, as in the case of Bitter Lemons, a specific and tragic series of events that evolved around the writer as he sought to make his home there. As such, it is far more a novel than the earlier island books and lacks their optimism about Greek space.
>
>re reading the book as I am now, I feel Durrell was hurt by his experiences on Cyprus. The bar scene where Frangos attempts picks a fight with Durrell is portentious and, despite its high points, the book moves inexorably toward the collapse in relations between the British administartion and the locals and Larry's flight from the island.
>
>It is interesting to note that after the Cyprus experience, Durrell hies it France and, although he visits Greece again, he never seeks to live there again.
>
>Bitter Lemons marks the end of an era for the author, a moving on. It is an excellent book - one of my favs
>
>
>Denise Tart & David Green
>16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204
>
>+61 2 9564 6165
>0412 707 625
>dtart at bigpond.net.au


From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Mon Jul  2 08:37:48 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:37:48 -0600
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
In-Reply-To: <2158702.1183385868338.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <2158702.1183385868338.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <46891BCC.4080208@gmail.com>

Bruce asks:

 > now that Durrell's fictive approach to non-fiction
 > has been exposed, I wonder about the opening in
 > Venice.  Did he actually start his journey in la
 > Serenissima or was it bit of invention -- a nod
 > towards the beginning of Othello and the tragedy
 > both the Moor and Durrell encounter on Cyprus?

I would not be at all surprised if your speculation is right, though 
it's primarily a biographical matter.  In my experience, Durrell works 
quite freely with his "creative non-fiction."  Comparing the travel 
books or short stories to his letters usually points out numerous 
differences.

But, I like that opening...  If it's fiction, I'm glad he changed the 
reality!

Best,
James

From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Mon Jul  2 09:02:14 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 17:02:14 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
In-Reply-To: <46891BCC.4080208@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <997FFD74-28B5-11DC-B0D8-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Perversely, Durrell did actually sail from Venice.

:Michael


On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 04:37  pm, James Gifford wrote:

> Bruce asks:
>
>> now that Durrell's fictive approach to non-fiction
>> has been exposed, I wonder about the opening in
>> Venice.  Did he actually start his journey in la
>> Serenissima or was it bit of invention -- a nod
>> towards the beginning of Othello and the tragedy
>> both the Moor and Durrell encounter on Cyprus?
>
> I would not be at all surprised if your speculation is right, though
> it's primarily a biographical matter.  In my experience, Durrell works
> quite freely with his "creative non-fiction."  Comparing the travel
> books or short stories to his letters usually points out numerous
> differences.
>
> But, I like that opening...  If it's fiction, I'm glad he changed the
> reality!
>
> Best,
> James
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Jul  2 09:40:34 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 09:40:34 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
Message-ID: <28345629.1183394435099.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

How inconvenient, but only a minor inconvenience.  Let's not be deterred by facts.  I propose that Durrell actually "planned" his trip to coincide with Othello's.  He followed his intuitions.  He let it "flower out of his nature," more or less, as he begins the story, and that nature naturally looks for literary antecedents in connection with islands.  What better one than Shakespeare, that old standby?  From The Tempest (Prospero's Cell and Corfu) to Othello (Bitter Lemons and Cyprus, another kind of cell).  How did he know his adventure would turn into a tragedy?  Well, he didn't, but then neither did Othello.  Durrell has some of Shakespeare's intuitions.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 9:02 AM
>To: gifford at uvic.ca, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>
>Perversely, Durrell did actually sail from Venice.
>
>:Michael
>
>
>On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 04:37  pm, James Gifford wrote:
>
>> Bruce asks:
>>
>>> now that Durrell's fictive approach to non-fiction
>>> has been exposed, I wonder about the opening in
>>> Venice.  Did he actually start his journey in la
>>> Serenissima or was it bit of invention -- a nod
>>> towards the beginning of Othello and the tragedy
>>> both the Moor and Durrell encounter on Cyprus?
>>
>> I would not be at all surprised if your speculation is right, though
>> it's primarily a biographical matter.  In my experience, Durrell works
>> quite freely with his "creative non-fiction."  Comparing the travel
>> books or short stories to his letters usually points out numerous
>> differences.
>>
>> But, I like that opening...  If it's fiction, I'm glad he changed the
>> reality!
>>
>> Best,
>> James
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Mon Jul  2 09:54:29 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:54:29 -0600
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
In-Reply-To: <28345629.1183394435099.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <28345629.1183394435099.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <46892DC5.5080803@gmail.com>

Bruce notes the inconvenience of biography or fact in literary reading, 
which prevents a reader from spotting allusions or affinities.

I think this is a general point -- Durrell wrote an opening to _Bitter 
Lemons_ that coincides nicely with his previous allusions to Shakespeare 
and conjured up a 'readerly' allusion to "Othello."  Why would fact 
prevent that reading?  Durrell did write it (or at least it's in his 
book...), so the possible allusion stands, regardless of its origins.

I see a few possibilities (and we've been tripping over these lately in 
reading _Justine_):

1) when a fictional incident is based on biography or history, we are 
barred from literary readings.  Despite appearing in a work of fiction, 
reality usurps literary interventions.

2) autobiography or history is open to literary readings because, even 
in telling the truth, I can tell it in a way that draws on a rich vein 
of literary tradition.

3) we must rely on the author's intended effects, privileging (there's 
that word, Michael) it over the reader's experience -- or, vice versa...

4) we rely on the text ready to hand -- an author's intentions are 
always open to doubt, so we have the death of the author and the 
long-awaited birth of the text.

Personally, I'm something of a bastard.  I like to use all four 
approaches (5 with the dual options in #3) whenever they suit me.  And 
since I'm the one holding the book or writing the new text about it, 
I'll keep doing exactly as I like -- hopefully I tend to pick the one 
that's most exciting for the occasion.

Also, one of the reasons I like Durrell is that all five often operate 
quite well at the same time.

Best,
James

Bruce Redwine wrote:
> How inconvenient, but only a minor inconvenience. 
 > Let's not be deterred by facts.

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Jul  2 10:14:22 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:14:22 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
Message-ID: <10333459.1183396462980.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Ah, French rationality trumps American woolly thinking.  I guess I'm a Bushy without knowing it.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Marc Piel <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 9:46 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>
>Sorry Bruce, but I am glad your assumption was 
>wrong!!!
>Marc
>
>Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>> How inconvenient, but only a minor inconvenience.  Let's not be deterred by facts.  I propose that Durrell actually "planned" his trip to coincide with Othello's.  He followed his intuitions.  He let it "flower out of his nature," more or less, as he begins the story, and that nature naturally looks for literary antecedents in connection with islands.  What better one than Shakespeare, that old standby?  From The Tempest (Prospero's Cell and Corfu) to Othello (Bitter Lemons and Cyprus, another kind of cell).  How did he know his adventure would turn into a tragedy?  Well, he didn't, but then neither did Othello.  Durrell has some of Shakespeare's intuitions.
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> 
>>>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 9:02 AM
>>>To: gifford at uvic.ca, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>>>
>>>Perversely, Durrell did actually sail from Venice.
>>>
>>>:Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 04:37  pm, James Gifford wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bruce asks:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>now that Durrell's fictive approach to non-fiction
>>>>>has been exposed, I wonder about the opening in
>>>>>Venice.  Did he actually start his journey in la
>>>>>Serenissima or was it bit of invention -- a nod
>>>>>towards the beginning of Othello and the tragedy
>>>>>both the Moor and Durrell encounter on Cyprus?
>>>>
>>>>I would not be at all surprised if your speculation is right, though
>>>>it's primarily a biographical matter.  In my experience, Durrell works
>>>>quite freely with his "creative non-fiction."  Comparing the travel
>>>>books or short stories to his letters usually points out numerous
>>>>differences.
>>>>
>>>>But, I like that opening...  If it's fiction, I'm glad he changed the
>>>>reality!
>>>>
>>>>Best,
>>>>James


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Mon Jul  2 10:57:55 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 13:57:55 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Still smiling on Aphrodite's island
In-Reply-To: <20070621013943.UJQF23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <20070621013943.UJQF23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <46893CA3.7090404@wfu.edu>

Did our listserv's recent invocation of /Bitter Lemons/ and Othello call 
forth this article on Cyprus? 

Here is to all things "austere and merciless."  CLS

***

*Still smiling on Aphrodite's island*
http://*www.telegraph.co.uk*/travel/main.jhtml?xml=/travel/2007/07/02/etcyprus102.xml#3
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 02/07/2007
The world shunned Northern Cyprus, but its beauty endures, says Stephen 
Cooper.

I arrive at "a Sea-port of Cyprus" as did Othello, in a cracking storm. 
In Kyrenia, torrents cascade down the steps leading to the quayside, as 
a fuller blast shakes the battlements of the massive fortress above the 
harbour.

British influence still lingers in Turkish Northern Cyprus, but it is 
fond tradition rather than the crass parody that blights the Costas. It 
is found in driving on the left, in English signs on official buildings 
(and "Car Boot Sale" placards), in the familiar cylindrical postboxes 
(albeit in unfamiliar bright yellow, as pictured right), but never more 
so on than in the weather on this particular day.
advertisement

As stranded Cypriot fishermen look glumly out over thick coffee, it is 
the British - expats and visitors alike - who delight in this return to 
their traditional watery element. Wading through the gales in sensible 
rain gear, they wear a look of satisfied resignation, almost gleeful 
nostalgia for Bank Holidays immemorial. The locals don't really mind. 
They know the sun will return - and soon - for an average 300 days each 
year.

Richard the Lionheart started the trend for British visits to Kyrenia 
(known to locals as Girne) in 1191 by forcibly capturing the castle. 
Today's visitors pay for their real estate instead. The balmy 
temperatures and tasty prices bring them flocking, and the friendliness 
of the locals keeps them content. Why crusade when you can happily co-exist?

Northern Cyprus is experiencing a boom. Unfinished buildings gaze 
longingly at their artist's impressions, aspiring to the glossy finish 
of the sales hoardings. While some may be due to overextended 
developers, others are romantic homage to a local custom whereby parents 
build a home for their son over a period of several years before his 
marriage. The bride's folks get to furnish it. With new houses come the 
creature comforts: a new championship golf course of lush green among 
the olive and carob trees, and luxurious hotels, such as the central 
Colony with its casino and limousines.

There are so many places to eat that a chunky restaurant guide has been 
published. As villas replace olive groves, Cyprus is well aware that its 
charm can be spoilt and has new building controls in place.

But until the politicians act, nothing can be done about the sad waste 
of a city like Famagusta. From the Palm Beach hotel terrace stretches a 
crescent bay of hotels, every one empty since the 1970s and partition. 
Farthest away is the St George's. At a distance (and that's the only way 
you can see it) it resembles its namesake in that other torn city facing 
it across the eastern editerranean, Beirut. The island's most renowned 
hotel, the Ledra Palace in Nicosia, now houses UN peacekeepers in the 
Green Line buffer zone.

*Whatever the politicians do (or don't), the people know they are on to 
a good thing on this beautiful island of Aphrodite, and just get on with 
it. Lawrence Durrell in Bitter Lemons describes the shady "Tree of 
Idleness" beloved of the languid locals. Outside the spectacular Gothic 
Bellapais Abbey, competing restaurants fervently but amiably claim the 
tree as theirs. Centuries of mingling at this Mediterranean crossroads 
have produced numerous cultural collisions.
*
French cathedrals carry slender minarets and make modern-day mosques. 
There are Verigo grapes, named by a Turkish child who misheard British 
troops pronounce them "very good". And at remote Kantara, beneath a 
Venetian fortress clinging to limestone crags, Halil welcomes you warmly 
to lunch in his pine-shaded restaurant with an East End "Awright?". In 
Nicosia, the colonnaded courtyard of B?y?k Han, a caravanserai for 
Anatolian merchants turned poorhouse, is once again a craft centre with 
caf?. The lemonade is home-made and pastry is freshly rolled on marble 
to make hellim b?reg\u02C7i, wafer-thin toasted cheese parcels.

Details captivate: the "eyes" to ward off evil emblazoned above doors 
(as pictured above right), on babies' shawls, or on the lavender bags on 
hotel pillows; the Lefkara lace patterns designed by da Vinci (who also 
beefed up the fortifications during his 1481 visit); the three 
door-knockers in Ottoman Nicosia with different tones to announce men, 
women and children; or the coded coffee signals of courting couples, 
sweet for "hello", bitter for "goodbye".

Rich colour is everywhere. Midway between the cathedral mosque and 
Othello's tower in Old Famagusta's golden-walled city is Petek 
Pastanesi, an Aladdin's cave of pastries, sweets and cakes. There is 
colour, too, in the ancient Roman mosaics of Salamis, whose ruins you 
can still clamber over. It may not be archaeological best practice, but 
there is the real thrill of touching the past that is lost at red-roped 
museums like Pompeii. Tantalisingly, the political climate keeps a vast 
area still unexcavated and even more lies under the waves of Gazimagusa Bay.

Roads vary, but all are passable, though the Karpas Peninsula merits an 
off-roader to see the deserted beaches where turtles lay their eggs in 
May, which hatch in July. The roads across the Green Line have also been 
passable since 2003, so North increasingly meets South.

Back in Kyrenia harbour (pictured above left), the muezzin's call to 
evening prayer floats over the White Pearl Hotel and the Hotel British. 
On the quayside, wooden tables are matched by wooden working boats - no 
surfeit of gin-palace fibreglass here - and at night there is symmetry 
as people dine at caf? table and on deck. Swallows swoop as the dusk 
settles and lanterns glimmer. Aphrodite would still, its troubles 
notwithstanding, be pleased with her island.

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Mon Jul  2 09:46:29 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 18:46:29 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
In-Reply-To: <28345629.1183394435099.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <28345629.1183394435099.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <46892BE5.2090506@interdesign.fr>

Sorry Bruce, but I am glad your assumption was 
wrong!!!
Marc

Bruce Redwine wrote:

> How inconvenient, but only a minor inconvenience.  Let's not be deterred by facts.  I propose that Durrell actually "planned" his trip to coincide with Othello's.  He followed his intuitions.  He let it "flower out of his nature," more or less, as he begins the story, and that nature naturally looks for literary antecedents in connection with islands.  What better one than Shakespeare, that old standby?  From The Tempest (Prospero's Cell and Corfu) to Othello (Bitter Lemons and Cyprus, another kind of cell).  How did he know his adventure would turn into a tragedy?  Well, he didn't, but then neither did Othello.  Durrell has some of Shakespeare's intuitions.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
>>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 9:02 AM
>>To: gifford at uvic.ca, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>>
>>Perversely, Durrell did actually sail from Venice.
>>
>>:Michael
>>
>>
>>On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 04:37  pm, James Gifford wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Bruce asks:
>>>
>>>
>>>>now that Durrell's fictive approach to non-fiction
>>>>has been exposed, I wonder about the opening in
>>>>Venice.  Did he actually start his journey in la
>>>>Serenissima or was it bit of invention -- a nod
>>>>towards the beginning of Othello and the tragedy
>>>>both the Moor and Durrell encounter on Cyprus?
>>>
>>>I would not be at all surprised if your speculation is right, though
>>>it's primarily a biographical matter.  In my experience, Durrell works
>>>quite freely with his "creative non-fiction."  Comparing the travel
>>>books or short stories to his letters usually points out numerous
>>>differences.
>>>
>>>But, I like that opening...  If it's fiction, I'm glad he changed the
>>>reality!
>>>
>>>Best,
>>>James
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>ILDS mailing list
>>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ILDS mailing list
>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 

From bskordil at otenet.gr  Mon Jul  2 10:20:25 2007
From: bskordil at otenet.gr (Beatrice Skordili)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 20:20:25 +0300
Subject: [ilds] Freud Returns
References: <00B51E61-280D-11DC-8B9A-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <001901c7bccd$49194960$80f5cdd4@lacan>

Marc and others,

(as promised), the _Scientific American Mind_ in the April/May 2006 issue 
contains a whole section devoted to Freud. The article I was thinking about 
was by Mark Solms and titled "Freud Returns" (28-34).
    Also of interest might be Jean Pierre Changeux's _Neuronal Man: The 
Biology of the Mind_.

Happy Readings,

Beatrice Skordili
 


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Jul  2 11:51:52 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 11:51:52 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Freud Returns
Message-ID: <10865264.1183402313063.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I haven't read the Scientific American issue on Freud, but, if I may readily jump to conclusions, I suspect the articles have something to do with neurological research proving the "existence" of an unconscious area of the brain.  Which I have no problems with.  But how do scientists brain-scan a myth or find the ghost in the machine?  The myth is Freud's invention, not the fact of some unconscious mechanism.  Over the past thirty years, historians of science have criticized and refuted Freud's methodology and explanation for the unconscious.  His whole mythology about repression, as exemplified in "Seduction Theory," has been shown bogus.  Freud offered all kinds of enticing theories, especially so to literary theorists, who are irresistibly attracted to the method -- Freud, after all, was a great storyteller -- but none of these conjectures have ever been proved empirically over the last century.  Of course, Freudian theory also provides a convenient escape mechanism for its unprovability, namely, not acknowledging the validity of the theory is evidence of resistance to the theory.  I say no more.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Beatrice Skordili <bskordil at otenet.gr>
>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 10:20 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Returns
>
>Marc and others,
>
>(as promised), the _Scientific American Mind_ in the April/May 2006 issue 
>contains a whole section devoted to Freud. The article I was thinking about 
>was by Mark Solms and titled "Freud Returns" (28-34).
>    Also of interest might be Jean Pierre Changeux's _Neuronal Man: The 
>Biology of the Mind_.
>
>Happy Readings,
>
>Beatrice Skordili
> 
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From vcel at ix.netcom.com  Mon Jul  2 12:08:36 2007
From: vcel at ix.netcom.com (Vittorio Celentano)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 15:08:36 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Freud Returns
References: <00B51E61-280D-11DC-8B9A-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<001901c7bccd$49194960$80f5cdd4@lacan>
Message-ID: <000801c7bcdc$64d4e790$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>

Beatrice Skordili and others,

Attached is the article: Freud returns by Mark Solms

Vittorio Celentano
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beatrice Skordili" <bskordil at otenet.gr>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Returns


> Marc and others,
>
> (as promised), the _Scientific American Mind_ in the April/May 2006 issue
> contains a whole section devoted to Freud. The article I was thinking
about
> was by Mark Solms and titled "Freud Returns" (28-34).
>     Also of interest might be Jean Pierre Changeux's _Neuronal Man: The
> Biology of the Mind_.
>
> Happy Readings,
>
> Beatrice Skordili
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Jul  2 12:28:55 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 12:28:55 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
Message-ID: <19424567.1183404535766.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

James, good to have a companion here.  Good summary.  I'm with you on your points 2-3, but can't go along with 1 and 4.  As for 1, authors are probably always reworking reality to suit their ends, so I don't know what "reality usurps literary interventions" means.  And as for 4, I just don't believe Barthes's axiom and will not turn a literary work over to the whims of the reader.  Now, you may say the proposal that Othello influences Bitter Lemons is a whim, but I say I tried to anchor that allusion in its appropriateness to the text and Durrell's life/method.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 9:54 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>
>Bruce notes the inconvenience of biography or fact in literary reading, 
>which prevents a reader from spotting allusions or affinities.
>
>I think this is a general point -- Durrell wrote an opening to _Bitter 
>Lemons_ that coincides nicely with his previous allusions to Shakespeare 
>and conjured up a 'readerly' allusion to "Othello."  Why would fact 
>prevent that reading?  Durrell did write it (or at least it's in his 
>book...), so the possible allusion stands, regardless of its origins.
>
>I see a few possibilities (and we've been tripping over these lately in 
>reading _Justine_):
>
>1) when a fictional incident is based on biography or history, we are 
>barred from literary readings.  Despite appearing in a work of fiction, 
>reality usurps literary interventions.
>
>2) autobiography or history is open to literary readings because, even 
>in telling the truth, I can tell it in a way that draws on a rich vein 
>of literary tradition.
>
>3) we must rely on the author's intended effects, privileging (there's 
>that word, Michael) it over the reader's experience -- or, vice versa...
>
>4) we rely on the text ready to hand -- an author's intentions are 
>always open to doubt, so we have the death of the author and the 
>long-awaited birth of the text.
>
>Personally, I'm something of a bastard.  I like to use all four 
>approaches (5 with the dual options in #3) whenever they suit me.  And 
>since I'm the one holding the book or writing the new text about it, 
>I'll keep doing exactly as I like -- hopefully I tend to pick the one 
>that's most exciting for the occasion.
>
>Also, one of the reasons I like Durrell is that all five often operate 
>quite well at the same time.
>
>Best,
>James
>
>Bruce Redwine wrote:
>> How inconvenient, but only a minor inconvenience. 
> > Let's not be deterred by facts.
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Mon Jul  2 13:47:39 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:47:39 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Freud Returns
In-Reply-To: <10865264.1183402313063.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <10865264.1183402313063.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4689646B.6060100@interdesign.fr>

Are you jumping into the bush again????
Marc

Bruce Redwine wrote:

> I haven't read the Scientific American issue on Freud, but, if I may readily jump to conclusions, I suspect the articles have something to do with neurological research proving the "existence" of an unconscious area of the brain.  Which I have no problems with.  But how do scientists brain-scan a myth or find the ghost in the machine?  The myth is Freud's invention, not the fact of some unconscious mechanism.  Over the past thirty years, historians of science have criticized and refuted Freud's methodology and explanation for the unconscious.  His whole mythology about repression, as exemplified in "Seduction Theory," has been shown bogus.  Freud offered all kinds of enticing theories, especially so to literary theorists, who are irresistibly attracted to the method -- Freud, after all, was a great storyteller -- but none of these conjectures have ever been proved empirically over the last century.  Of course, Freudian theory also provides a convenient escape mechanism for 
i!
>  ts unprovability, namely, not acknowledging the validity of the theory is evidence of resistance to the theory.  I say no more.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
>>From: Beatrice Skordili <bskordil at otenet.gr>
>>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 10:20 AM
>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Returns
>>
>>Marc and others,
>>
>>(as promised), the _Scientific American Mind_ in the April/May 2006 issue 
>>contains a whole section devoted to Freud. The article I was thinking about 
>>was by Mark Solms and titled "Freud Returns" (28-34).
>>   Also of interest might be Jean Pierre Changeux's _Neuronal Man: The 
>>Biology of the Mind_.
>>
>>Happy Readings,
>>
>>Beatrice Skordili
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ILDS mailing list
>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 

From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Mon Jul  2 13:52:04 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:52:04 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Still smiling on Aphrodite's island
In-Reply-To: <46893CA3.7090404@wfu.edu>
References: <20070621013943.UJQF23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<46893CA3.7090404@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <46896574.3010003@interdesign.fr>

Charles,
  from the info I have Cyprus is today invaded, 
after the British, by nouveau riche russian 
tycoons.... you can image the living climate and 
the race for.... I cant find the word.
Marc

slighcl wrote:

> Did our listserv's recent invocation of Bitter Lemons and Othello call 
> forth this article on Cyprus? 
> 
> Here is to all things "austere and merciless."  CLS
> 
> ***
> 
> Still smiling on Aphrodite's island
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/main.jhtml?xml=/travel/2007/07/02/etcyprus102.xml#3
> Last Updated: 12:01am BST 02/07/2007
> The world shunned Northern Cyprus, but its beauty endures, says Stephen 
> Cooper.
> 
> I arrive at "a Sea-port of Cyprus" as did Othello, in a cracking storm. 
> In Kyrenia, torrents cascade down the steps leading to the quayside, as 
> a fuller blast shakes the battlements of the massive fortress above the 
> harbour.
> 
> British influence still lingers in Turkish Northern Cyprus, but it is 
> fond tradition rather than the crass parody that blights the Costas. It 
> is found in driving on the left, in English signs on official buildings 
> (and "Car Boot Sale" placards), in the familiar cylindrical postboxes 
> (albeit in unfamiliar bright yellow, as pictured right), but never more 
> so on than in the weather on this particular day.
> advertisement
> 
> As stranded Cypriot fishermen look glumly out over thick coffee, it is 
> the British - expats and visitors alike - who delight in this return to 
> their traditional watery element. Wading through the gales in sensible 
> rain gear, they wear a look of satisfied resignation, almost gleeful 
> nostalgia for Bank Holidays immemorial. The locals don't really mind. 
> They know the sun will return - and soon - for an average 300 days each 
> year.
> 
> Richard the Lionheart started the trend for British visits to Kyrenia 
> (known to locals as Girne) in 1191 by forcibly capturing the castle. 
> Today's visitors pay for their real estate instead. The balmy 
> temperatures and tasty prices bring them flocking, and the friendliness 
> of the locals keeps them content. Why crusade when you can happily co-exist?
> 
> Northern Cyprus is experiencing a boom. Unfinished buildings gaze 
> longingly at their artist's impressions, aspiring to the glossy finish 
> of the sales hoardings. While some may be due to overextended 
> developers, others are romantic homage to a local custom whereby parents 
> build a home for their son over a period of several years before his 
> marriage. The bride's folks get to furnish it. With new houses come the 
> creature comforts: a new championship golf course of lush green among 
> the olive and carob trees, and luxurious hotels, such as the central 
> Colony with its casino and limousines.
> 
> There are so many places to eat that a chunky restaurant guide has been 
> published. As villas replace olive groves, Cyprus is well aware that its 
> charm can be spoilt and has new building controls in place.
> 
> But until the politicians act, nothing can be done about the sad waste 
> of a city like Famagusta. From the Palm Beach hotel terrace stretches a 
> crescent bay of hotels, every one empty since the 1970s and partition. 
> Farthest away is the St George's. At a distance (and that's the only way 
> you can see it) it resembles its namesake in that other torn city facing 
> it across the eastern editerranean, Beirut. The island's most renowned 
> hotel, the Ledra Palace in Nicosia, now houses UN peacekeepers in the 
> Green Line buffer zone.
> 
> Whatever the politicians do (or don't), the people know they are on to a 
> good thing on this beautiful island of Aphrodite, and just get on with 
> it. Lawrence Durrell in Bitter Lemons describes the shady "Tree of 
> Idleness" beloved of the languid locals. Outside the spectacular Gothic 
> Bellapais Abbey, competing restaurants fervently but amiably claim the 
> tree as theirs. Centuries of mingling at this Mediterranean crossroads 
> have produced numerous cultural collisions.
> 
> French cathedrals carry slender minarets and make modern-day mosques. 
> There are Verigo grapes, named by a Turkish child who misheard British 
> troops pronounce them "very good". And at remote Kantara, beneath a 
> Venetian fortress clinging to limestone crags, Halil welcomes you warmly 
> to lunch in his pine-shaded restaurant with an East End "Awright?". In 
> Nicosia, the colonnaded courtyard of B?y?k Han, a caravanserai for 
> Anatolian merchants turned poorhouse, is once again a craft centre with 
> caf?. The lemonade is home-made and pastry is freshly rolled on marble 
> to make hellim b?reg\u02C7i, wafer-thin toasted cheese parcels.
> 
> Details captivate: the "eyes" to ward off evil emblazoned above doors 
> (as pictured above right), on babies' shawls, or on the lavender bags on 
> hotel pillows; the Lefkara lace patterns designed by da Vinci (who also 
> beefed up the fortifications during his 1481 visit); the three 
> door-knockers in Ottoman Nicosia with different tones to announce men, 
> women and children; or the coded coffee signals of courting couples, 
> sweet for "hello", bitter for "goodbye".
> 
> Rich colour is everywhere. Midway between the cathedral mosque and 
> Othello's tower in Old Famagusta's golden-walled city is Petek 
> Pastanesi, an Aladdin's cave of pastries, sweets and cakes. There is 
> colour, too, in the ancient Roman mosaics of Salamis, whose ruins you 
> can still clamber over. It may not be archaeological best practice, but 
> there is the real thrill of touching the past that is lost at red-roped 
> museums like Pompeii. Tantalisingly, the political climate keeps a vast 
> area still unexcavated and even more lies under the waves of Gazimagusa Bay.
> 
> Roads vary, but all are passable, though the Karpas Peninsula merits an 
> off-roader to see the deserted beaches where turtles lay their eggs in 
> May, which hatch in July. The roads across the Green Line have also been 
> passable since 2003, so North increasingly meets South.
> 
> Back in Kyrenia harbour (pictured above left), the muezzin's call to 
> evening prayer floats over the White Pearl Hotel and the Hotel British. 
> On the quayside, wooden tables are matched by wooden working boats - no 
> surfeit of gin-palace fibreglass here - and at night there is symmetry 
> as people dine at caf? table and on deck. Swallows swoop as the dusk 
> settles and lanterns glimmer. Aphrodite would still, its troubles 
> notwithstanding, be pleased with her island.
> 
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Mon Jul  2 13:55:58 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:55:58 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
In-Reply-To: <19424567.1183404535766.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <19424567.1183404535766.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4689665E.60600@interdesign.fr>

Hello Bruce and James,
Surely you are all "readers" 	and doing exactly 
what Barthes described????
Marc Piel

Bruce Redwine wrote:

> James, good to have a companion here.  Good summary.  I'm with you on your points 2-3, but can't go along with 1 and 4.  As for 1, authors are probably always reworking reality to suit their ends, so I don't know what "reality usurps literary interventions" means.  And as for 4, I just don't believe Barthes's axiom and will not turn a literary work over to the whims of the reader.  Now, you may say the proposal that Othello influences Bitter Lemons is a whim, but I say I tried to anchor that allusion in its appropriateness to the text and Durrell's life/method.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
>>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 9:54 AM
>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>>
>>Bruce notes the inconvenience of biography or fact in literary reading, 
>>which prevents a reader from spotting allusions or affinities.
>>
>>I think this is a general point -- Durrell wrote an opening to _Bitter 
>>Lemons_ that coincides nicely with his previous allusions to Shakespeare 
>>and conjured up a 'readerly' allusion to "Othello."  Why would fact 
>>prevent that reading?  Durrell did write it (or at least it's in his 
>>book...), so the possible allusion stands, regardless of its origins.
>>
>>I see a few possibilities (and we've been tripping over these lately in 
>>reading _Justine_):
>>
>>1) when a fictional incident is based on biography or history, we are 
>>barred from literary readings.  Despite appearing in a work of fiction, 
>>reality usurps literary interventions.
>>
>>2) autobiography or history is open to literary readings because, even 
>>in telling the truth, I can tell it in a way that draws on a rich vein 
>>of literary tradition.
>>
>>3) we must rely on the author's intended effects, privileging (there's 
>>that word, Michael) it over the reader's experience -- or, vice versa...
>>
>>4) we rely on the text ready to hand -- an author's intentions are 
>>always open to doubt, so we have the death of the author and the 
>>long-awaited birth of the text.
>>
>>Personally, I'm something of a bastard.  I like to use all four 
>>approaches (5 with the dual options in #3) whenever they suit me.  And 
>>since I'm the one holding the book or writing the new text about it, 
>>I'll keep doing exactly as I like -- hopefully I tend to pick the one 
>>that's most exciting for the occasion.
>>
>>Also, one of the reasons I like Durrell is that all five often operate 
>>quite well at the same time.
>>
>>Best,
>>James
>>
>>Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>
>>>How inconvenient, but only a minor inconvenience. 
>>>Let's not be deterred by facts.
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ILDS mailing list
>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 

From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Mon Jul  2 14:02:24 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 22:02:24 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
In-Reply-To: <19424567.1183404535766.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <884C2A82-28DF-11DC-B961-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

What is wrong is to come up with ideas, theories, or whatever about a 
work which are entirely untethered to anything like context.

:Michael




On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 08:28  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:

> James, good to have a companion here.  Good summary.  I'm with you on 
> your points 2-3, but can't go along with 1 and 4.  As for 1, authors 
> are probably always reworking reality to suit their ends, so I don't 
> know what "reality usurps literary interventions" means.  And as for 
> 4, I just don't believe Barthes's axiom and will not turn a literary 
> work over to the whims of the reader.  Now, you may say the proposal 
> that Othello influences Bitter Lemons is a whim, but I say I tried to 
> anchor that allusion in its appropriateness to the text and Durrell's 
> life/method.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Jul 2, 2007 9:54 AM
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>>
>> Bruce notes the inconvenience of biography or fact in literary 
>> reading,
>> which prevents a reader from spotting allusions or affinities.
>>
>> I think this is a general point -- Durrell wrote an opening to _Bitter
>> Lemons_ that coincides nicely with his previous allusions to 
>> Shakespeare
>> and conjured up a 'readerly' allusion to "Othello."  Why would fact
>> prevent that reading?  Durrell did write it (or at least it's in his
>> book...), so the possible allusion stands, regardless of its origins.
>>
>> I see a few possibilities (and we've been tripping over these lately 
>> in
>> reading _Justine_):
>>
>> 1) when a fictional incident is based on biography or history, we are
>> barred from literary readings.  Despite appearing in a work of 
>> fiction,
>> reality usurps literary interventions.
>>
>> 2) autobiography or history is open to literary readings because, even
>> in telling the truth, I can tell it in a way that draws on a rich vein
>> of literary tradition.
>>
>> 3) we must rely on the author's intended effects, privileging (there's
>> that word, Michael) it over the reader's experience -- or, vice 
>> versa...
>>
>> 4) we rely on the text ready to hand -- an author's intentions are
>> always open to doubt, so we have the death of the author and the
>> long-awaited birth of the text.
>>
>> Personally, I'm something of a bastard.  I like to use all four
>> approaches (5 with the dual options in #3) whenever they suit me.  And
>> since I'm the one holding the book or writing the new text about it,
>> I'll keep doing exactly as I like -- hopefully I tend to pick the one
>> that's most exciting for the occasion.
>>
>> Also, one of the reasons I like Durrell is that all five often operate
>> quite well at the same time.
>>
>> Best,
>> James
>>
>> Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>> How inconvenient, but only a minor inconvenience.
>>> Let's not be deterred by facts.
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Mon Jul  2 14:05:13 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 22:05:13 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Freud Returns
In-Reply-To: <4689646B.6060100@interdesign.fr>
Message-ID: <ECF991F1-28DF-11DC-B961-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Don't be dirty, Marc.

:M


On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 09:47  pm, Marc Piel wrote:

> Are you jumping into the bush again????
> Marc
>
> Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>> I haven't read the Scientific American issue on Freud, but, if I may 
>> readily jump to conclusions, I suspect the articles have something to 
>> do with neurological research proving the "existence" of an 
>> unconscious area of the brain.  Which I have no problems with.  But 
>> how do scientists brain-scan a myth or find the ghost in the machine? 
>>  The myth is Freud's invention, not the fact of some unconscious 
>> mechanism.  Over the past thirty years, historians of science have 
>> criticized and refuted Freud's methodology and explanation for the 
>> unconscious.  His whole mythology about repression, as exemplified in 
>> "Seduction Theory," has been shown bogus.  Freud offered all kinds of 
>> enticing theories, especially so to literary theorists, who are 
>> irresistibly attracted to the method -- Freud, after all, was a great 
>> storyteller -- but none of these conjectures have ever been proved 
>> empirically over the last century.  Of course, Freudian theory also 
>> provides a convenient escape mechanism for
> i!
>>  ts unprovability, namely, not acknowledging the validity of the 
>> theory is evidence of resistance to the theory.  I say no more.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>>> From: Beatrice Skordili <bskordil at otenet.gr>
>>> Sent: Jul 2, 2007 10:20 AM
>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Returns
>>>
>>> Marc and others,
>>>
>>> (as promised), the _Scientific American Mind_ in the April/May 2006 
>>> issue
>>> contains a whole section devoted to Freud. The article I was 
>>> thinking about
>>> was by Mark Solms and titled "Freud Returns" (28-34).
>>>   Also of interest might be Jean Pierre Changeux's _Neuronal Man: The
>>> Biology of the Mind_.
>>>
>>> Happy Readings,
>>>
>>> Beatrice Skordili
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Mon Jul  2 14:05:57 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 22:05:57 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Still smiling on Aphrodite's island
In-Reply-To: <46896574.3010003@interdesign.fr>
Message-ID: <073CC9AE-28E0-11DC-B961-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

the word is ... bush



On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 09:52  pm, Marc Piel wrote:

> Charles,
>   from the info I have Cyprus is today invaded,
> after the British, by nouveau riche russian
> tycoons.... you can image the living climate and
> the race for.... I cant find the word.
> Marc
>
> slighcl wrote:
>
>> Did our listserv's recent invocation of Bitter Lemons and Othello call
>> forth this article on Cyprus?
>>
>> Here is to all things "austere and merciless."  CLS
>>
>> ***
>>
>> Still smiling on Aphrodite's island
>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/main.jhtml?xml=/travel/2007/07/02/ 
>> etcyprus102.xml#3
>> Last Updated: 12:01am BST 02/07/2007
>> The world shunned Northern Cyprus, but its beauty endures, says  
>> Stephen
>> Cooper.
>>
>> I arrive at "a Sea-port of Cyprus" as did Othello, in a cracking  
>> storm.
>> In Kyrenia, torrents cascade down the steps leading to the quayside,  
>> as
>> a fuller blast shakes the battlements of the massive fortress above  
>> the
>> harbour.
>>
>> British influence still lingers in Turkish Northern Cyprus, but it is
>> fond tradition rather than the crass parody that blights the Costas.  
>> It
>> is found in driving on the left, in English signs on official  
>> buildings
>> (and "Car Boot Sale" placards), in the familiar cylindrical postboxes
>> (albeit in unfamiliar bright yellow, as pictured right), but never  
>> more
>> so on than in the weather on this particular day.
>> advertisement
>>
>> As stranded Cypriot fishermen look glumly out over thick coffee, it is
>> the British - expats and visitors alike - who delight in this return  
>> to
>> their traditional watery element. Wading through the gales in sensible
>> rain gear, they wear a look of satisfied resignation, almost gleeful
>> nostalgia for Bank Holidays immemorial. The locals don't really mind.
>> They know the sun will return - and soon - for an average 300 days  
>> each
>> year.
>>
>> Richard the Lionheart started the trend for British visits to Kyrenia
>> (known to locals as Girne) in 1191 by forcibly capturing the castle.
>> Today's visitors pay for their real estate instead. The balmy
>> temperatures and tasty prices bring them flocking, and the  
>> friendliness
>> of the locals keeps them content. Why crusade when you can happily  
>> co-exist?
>>
>> Northern Cyprus is experiencing a boom. Unfinished buildings gaze
>> longingly at their artist's impressions, aspiring to the glossy finish
>> of the sales hoardings. While some may be due to overextended
>> developers, others are romantic homage to a local custom whereby  
>> parents
>> build a home for their son over a period of several years before his
>> marriage. The bride's folks get to furnish it. With new houses come  
>> the
>> creature comforts: a new championship golf course of lush green among
>> the olive and carob trees, and luxurious hotels, such as the central
>> Colony with its casino and limousines.
>>
>> There are so many places to eat that a chunky restaurant guide has  
>> been
>> published. As villas replace olive groves, Cyprus is well aware that  
>> its
>> charm can be spoilt and has new building controls in place.
>>
>> But until the politicians act, nothing can be done about the sad waste
>> of a city like Famagusta. From the Palm Beach hotel terrace stretches  
>> a
>> crescent bay of hotels, every one empty since the 1970s and partition.
>> Farthest away is the St George's. At a distance (and that's the only  
>> way
>> you can see it) it resembles its namesake in that other torn city  
>> facing
>> it across the eastern editerranean, Beirut. The island's most renowned
>> hotel, the Ledra Palace in Nicosia, now houses UN peacekeepers in the
>> Green Line buffer zone.
>>
>> Whatever the politicians do (or don't), the people know they are on  
>> to a
>> good thing on this beautiful island of Aphrodite, and just get on with
>> it. Lawrence Durrell in Bitter Lemons describes the shady "Tree of
>> Idleness" beloved of the languid locals. Outside the spectacular  
>> Gothic
>> Bellapais Abbey, competing restaurants fervently but amiably claim the
>> tree as theirs. Centuries of mingling at this Mediterranean crossroads
>> have produced numerous cultural collisions.
>>
>> French cathedrals carry slender minarets and make modern-day mosques.
>> There are Verigo grapes, named by a Turkish child who misheard British
>> troops pronounce them "very good". And at remote Kantara, beneath a
>> Venetian fortress clinging to limestone crags, Halil welcomes you  
>> warmly
>> to lunch in his pine-shaded restaurant with an East End "Awright?". In
>> Nicosia, the colonnaded courtyard of B?y?k Han, a caravanserai for
>> Anatolian merchants turned poorhouse, is once again a craft centre  
>> with
>> caf?. The lemonade is home-made and pastry is freshly rolled on marble
>> to make hellim b?reg\u02C7i, wafer-thin toasted cheese parcels.
>>
>> Details captivate: the "eyes" to ward off evil emblazoned above doors
>> (as pictured above right), on babies' shawls, or on the lavender bags  
>> on
>> hotel pillows; the Lefkara lace patterns designed by da Vinci (who  
>> also
>> beefed up the fortifications during his 1481 visit); the three
>> door-knockers in Ottoman Nicosia with different tones to announce men,
>> women and children; or the coded coffee signals of courting couples,
>> sweet for "hello", bitter for "goodbye".
>>
>> Rich colour is everywhere. Midway between the cathedral mosque and
>> Othello's tower in Old Famagusta's golden-walled city is Petek
>> Pastanesi, an Aladdin's cave of pastries, sweets and cakes. There is
>> colour, too, in the ancient Roman mosaics of Salamis, whose ruins you
>> can still clamber over. It may not be archaeological best practice,  
>> but
>> there is the real thrill of touching the past that is lost at  
>> red-roped
>> museums like Pompeii. Tantalisingly, the political climate keeps a  
>> vast
>> area still unexcavated and even more lies under the waves of  
>> Gazimagusa Bay.
>>
>> Roads vary, but all are passable, though the Karpas Peninsula merits  
>> an
>> off-roader to see the deserted beaches where turtles lay their eggs in
>> May, which hatch in July. The roads across the Green Line have also  
>> been
>> passable since 2003, so North increasingly meets South.
>>
>> Back in Kyrenia harbour (pictured above left), the muezzin's call to
>> evening prayer floats over the White Pearl Hotel and the Hotel  
>> British.
>> On the quayside, wooden tables are matched by wooden working boats -  
>> no
>> surfeit of gin-palace fibreglass here - and at night there is symmetry
>> as people dine at caf? table and on deck. Swallows swoop as the dusk
>> settles and lanterns glimmer. Aphrodite would still, its troubles
>> notwithstanding, be pleased with her island.
>>
>> -- 
>> **********************
>> Charles L. Sligh
>> Department of English
>> Wake Forest University
>> slighcl at wfu.edu
>> **********************
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> --
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Jul  2 14:14:19 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 14:14:19 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
Message-ID: <28369283.1183410859889.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


My God, I hope not, but the French always make interesting comments on Americans and, possibly, Canadians too.  So what you say, can't be readily discounted.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Marc Piel <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 1:55 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>
>Hello Bruce and James,
>Surely you are all "readers" 	and doing exactly 
>what Barthes described????
>Marc Piel
>
>Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>> James, good to have a companion here.  Good summary.  I'm with you on your points 2-3, but can't go along with 1 and 4.  As for 1, authors are probably always reworking reality to suit their ends, so I don't know what "reality usurps literary interventions" means.  And as for 4, I just don't believe Barthes's axiom and will not turn a literary work over to the whims of the reader.  Now, you may say the proposal that Othello influences Bitter Lemons is a whim, but I say I tried to anchor that allusion in its appropriateness to the text and Durrell's life/method.
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> 
>>>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>>>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 9:54 AM
>>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>>>
>>>Bruce notes the inconvenience of biography or fact in literary reading, 
>>>which prevents a reader from spotting allusions or affinities.
>>>
>>>I think this is a general point -- Durrell wrote an opening to _Bitter 
>>>Lemons_ that coincides nicely with his previous allusions to Shakespeare 
>>>and conjured up a 'readerly' allusion to "Othello."  Why would fact 
>>>prevent that reading?  Durrell did write it (or at least it's in his 
>>>book...), so the possible allusion stands, regardless of its origins.
>>>
>>>I see a few possibilities (and we've been tripping over these lately in 
>>>reading _Justine_):
>>>
>>>1) when a fictional incident is based on biography or history, we are 
>>>barred from literary readings.  Despite appearing in a work of fiction, 
>>>reality usurps literary interventions.
>>>
>>>2) autobiography or history is open to literary readings because, even 
>>>in telling the truth, I can tell it in a way that draws on a rich vein 
>>>of literary tradition.
>>>
>>>3) we must rely on the author's intended effects, privileging (there's 
>>>that word, Michael) it over the reader's experience -- or, vice versa...
>>>
>>>4) we rely on the text ready to hand -- an author's intentions are 
>>>always open to doubt, so we have the death of the author and the 
>>>long-awaited birth of the text.
>>>
>>>Personally, I'm something of a bastard.  I like to use all four 
>>>approaches (5 with the dual options in #3) whenever they suit me.  And 
>>>since I'm the one holding the book or writing the new text about it, 
>>>I'll keep doing exactly as I like -- hopefully I tend to pick the one 
>>>that's most exciting for the occasion.
>>>
>>>Also, one of the reasons I like Durrell is that all five often operate 
>>>quite well at the same time.
>>>
>>>Best,
>>>James
>>>
>>>Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>
>>>>How inconvenient, but only a minor inconvenience. 
>>>>Let's not be deterred by facts.
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>ILDS mailing list
>>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>> 
>> 


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Jul  2 14:25:10 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 14:25:10 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Freud Returns
Message-ID: <23717880.1183411510928.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Well, you know, the French can't help it.  Freud must have really been a Frenchman -- that has yet to come in the literature.  All that sex!

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 2:05 PM
>To: marcpiel at interdesign.fr, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Returns
>
>Don't be dirty, Marc.
>
>:M
>
>
>On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 09:47  pm, Marc Piel wrote:
>
>> Are you jumping into the bush again????
>> Marc
>>
>> Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>
>>> I haven't read the Scientific American issue on Freud, but, if I may 
>>> readily jump to conclusions, I suspect the articles have something to 
>>> do with neurological research proving the "existence" of an 
>>> unconscious area of the brain.  Which I have no problems with.  But 
>>> how do scientists brain-scan a myth or find the ghost in the machine? 
>>>  The myth is Freud's invention, not the fact of some unconscious 
>>> mechanism.  Over the past thirty years, historians of science have 
>>> criticized and refuted Freud's methodology and explanation for the 
>>> unconscious.  His whole mythology about repression, as exemplified in 
>>> "Seduction Theory," has been shown bogus.  Freud offered all kinds of 
>>> enticing theories, especially so to literary theorists, who are 
>>> irresistibly attracted to the method -- Freud, after all, was a great 
>>> storyteller -- but none of these conjectures have ever been proved 
>>> empirically over the last century.  Of course, Freudian theory also 
>>> provides a convenient escape mechanism for
>> i!
>>>  ts unprovability, namely, not acknowledging the validity of the 
>>> theory is evidence of resistance to the theory.  I say no more.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>>> From: Beatrice Skordili <bskordil at otenet.gr>
>>>> Sent: Jul 2, 2007 10:20 AM
>>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Returns
>>>>
>>>> Marc and others,
>>>>
>>>> (as promised), the _Scientific American Mind_ in the April/May 2006 
>>>> issue
>>>> contains a whole section devoted to Freud. The article I was 
>>>> thinking about
>>>> was by Mark Solms and titled "Freud Returns" (28-34).
>>>>   Also of interest might be Jean Pierre Changeux's _Neuronal Man: The
>>>> Biology of the Mind_.
>>>>
>>>> Happy Readings,
>>>>
>>>> Beatrice Skordili
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ILDS mailing list
>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Jul  2 14:53:50 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 14:53:50 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
Message-ID: <13702677.1183413230704.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Yes.  I take "context" in a broad sense:  the author's work, life, interests.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 2:02 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>
>What is wrong is to come up with ideas, theories, or whatever about a 
>work which are entirely untethered to anything like context.
>
>:Michael
>
>
>
>
>On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 08:28  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>> James, good to have a companion here.  Good summary.  I'm with you on 
>> your points 2-3, but can't go along with 1 and 4.  As for 1, authors 
>> are probably always reworking reality to suit their ends, so I don't 
>> know what "reality usurps literary interventions" means.  And as for 
>> 4, I just don't believe Barthes's axiom and will not turn a literary 
>> work over to the whims of the reader.  Now, you may say the proposal 
>> that Othello influences Bitter Lemons is a whim, but I say I tried to 
>> anchor that allusion in its appropriateness to the text and Durrell's 
>> life/method.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Jul 2, 2007 9:54 AM
>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>>>
>>> Bruce notes the inconvenience of biography or fact in literary 
>>> reading,
>>> which prevents a reader from spotting allusions or affinities.
>>>
>>> I think this is a general point -- Durrell wrote an opening to _Bitter
>>> Lemons_ that coincides nicely with his previous allusions to 
>>> Shakespeare
>>> and conjured up a 'readerly' allusion to "Othello."  Why would fact
>>> prevent that reading?  Durrell did write it (or at least it's in his
>>> book...), so the possible allusion stands, regardless of its origins.
>>>
>>> I see a few possibilities (and we've been tripping over these lately 
>>> in
>>> reading _Justine_):
>>>
>>> 1) when a fictional incident is based on biography or history, we are
>>> barred from literary readings.  Despite appearing in a work of 
>>> fiction,
>>> reality usurps literary interventions.
>>>
>>> 2) autobiography or history is open to literary readings because, even
>>> in telling the truth, I can tell it in a way that draws on a rich vein
>>> of literary tradition.
>>>
>>> 3) we must rely on the author's intended effects, privileging (there's
>>> that word, Michael) it over the reader's experience -- or, vice 
>>> versa...
>>>
>>> 4) we rely on the text ready to hand -- an author's intentions are
>>> always open to doubt, so we have the death of the author and the
>>> long-awaited birth of the text.
>>>
>>> Personally, I'm something of a bastard.  I like to use all four
>>> approaches (5 with the dual options in #3) whenever they suit me.  And
>>> since I'm the one holding the book or writing the new text about it,
>>> I'll keep doing exactly as I like -- hopefully I tend to pick the one
>>> that's most exciting for the occasion.
>>>
>>> Also, one of the reasons I like Durrell is that all five often operate
>>> quite well at the same time.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> James
>>>
>>> Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>> How inconvenient, but only a minor inconvenience.
>>>> Let's not be deterred by facts.


From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Mon Jul  2 15:07:16 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 00:07:16 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Freud Returns
In-Reply-To: <23717880.1183411510928.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <23717880.1183411510928.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <46897714.2080302@interdesign.fr>

Ha! Ha! What does that betray???

Bruce Redwine wrote:
> Well, you know, the French can't help it.  Freud must have really been a Frenchman -- that has yet to come in the literature.  All that sex!
> 
> Bruce
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
>>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 2:05 PM
>>To: marcpiel at interdesign.fr, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Returns
>>
>>Don't be dirty, Marc.
>>
>>:M
>>
>>
>>On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 09:47  pm, Marc Piel wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Are you jumping into the bush again????
>>>Marc
>>>
>>>Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I haven't read the Scientific American issue on Freud, but, if I may 
>>>>readily jump to conclusions, I suspect the articles have something to 
>>>>do with neurological research proving the "existence" of an 
>>>>unconscious area of the brain.  Which I have no problems with.  But 
>>>>how do scientists brain-scan a myth or find the ghost in the machine? 
>>>> The myth is Freud's invention, not the fact of some unconscious 
>>>>mechanism.  Over the past thirty years, historians of science have 
>>>>criticized and refuted Freud's methodology and explanation for the 
>>>>unconscious.  His whole mythology about repression, as exemplified in 
>>>>"Seduction Theory," has been shown bogus.  Freud offered all kinds of 
>>>>enticing theories, especially so to literary theorists, who are 
>>>>irresistibly attracted to the method -- Freud, after all, was a great 
>>>>storyteller -- but none of these conjectures have ever been proved 
>>>>empirically over the last century.  Of course, Freudian theory also 
>>>>provides a convenient escape mechanism for
>>>
>>>i!
>>>
>>>> ts unprovability, namely, not acknowledging the validity of the 
>>>>theory is evidence of resistance to the theory.  I say no more.
>>>>
>>>>Bruce
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: Beatrice Skordili <bskordil at otenet.gr>
>>>>>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 10:20 AM
>>>>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Returns
>>>>>
>>>>>Marc and others,
>>>>>
>>>>>(as promised), the _Scientific American Mind_ in the April/May 2006 
>>>>>issue
>>>>>contains a whole section devoted to Freud. The article I was 
>>>>>thinking about
>>>>>was by Mark Solms and titled "Freud Returns" (28-34).
>>>>>  Also of interest might be Jean Pierre Changeux's _Neuronal Man: The
>>>>>Biology of the Mind_.
>>>>>
>>>>>Happy Readings,
>>>>>
>>>>>Beatrice Skordili
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>ILDS mailing list
>>>>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ILDS mailing list
>>>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>ILDS mailing list
>>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ILDS mailing list
>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 

From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Mon Jul  2 16:22:43 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 17:22:43 -0600
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
In-Reply-To: <4689665E.60600@interdesign.fr>
References: <19424567.1183404535766.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<4689665E.60600@interdesign.fr>
Message-ID: <468988C3.5080302@gmail.com>

Marc Piel wrote:

> Surely you are all "readers" and doing exactly 
> what Barthes described????

That's exactly the point.  Even when we pursue the author's intentions 
in lieu of our own instincts or predispositions, we are the one's in 
control.  I'm sure even Michael would admit that he is a good example of 
a very strong reader...

Meanwhile, Bruce commented:

> I just don't believe Barthes's axiom and will not turn
 > a literary work over to the whims of the reader.

Ah, Bruce, but in these matters the reader has a whim of iron, as 
Betjeman might have put it.  Even pursuing the author's biographical 
essentialism is the reader's whim, and I know very few readers who will 
bend.

Best,
James

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Jul  2 16:49:59 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 16:49:59 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
Message-ID: <10187082.1183420199733.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I disagree.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 4:22 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>
>Marc Piel wrote:
>
>> Surely you are all "readers" and doing exactly 
>> what Barthes described????
>
>That's exactly the point.  Even when we pursue the author's intentions 
>in lieu of our own instincts or predispositions, we are the one's in 
>control.  I'm sure even Michael would admit that he is a good example of 
>a very strong reader...
>
>Meanwhile, Bruce commented:
>
>> I just don't believe Barthes's axiom and will not turn
> > a literary work over to the whims of the reader.
>
>Ah, Bruce, but in these matters the reader has a whim of iron, as 
>Betjeman might have put it.  Even pursuing the author's biographical 
>essentialism is the reader's whim, and I know very few readers who will 
>bend.
>
>Best,
>James
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Mon Jul  2 19:08:59 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:08:59 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- durrell in the bookshops (a postscript before
	parting)
In-Reply-To: <28369283.1183410859889.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <28369283.1183410859889.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4689AFBB.3000805@wfu.edu>

I am just back from reading through bookshop inventories, and Durrell's 
/Justine /continues its rise with no stopping in sight.  Anyone seeking 
a Faber 1st edition/1st impression of /Justine /with dust jacket will 
find a single copy running from around US $2300 - $4500.   A Faber 
1st/2nd impression shows up for around US $500.  Rather curiously, even 
the Dutton edition of /Justine /now sometime runs into several hundred 
dollars, and the Franklin Library signed edition has jumped to US $160 - 
$200, which is a significant rise from the last time I checked. 

So there is my answer for Bruce.  /Justine /is by no means "broken."  
Rather the novel is a sound investment.  Hold on to what you have. 
 
Good deals can still be found out by those who are persistent and 
attentive.  And I note that some dealers specializing in Durrell's works 
are advertising all four Faber volumes in one lot for about the same 
price as those high single /Justine /volumes.

I will offer up one additional curiosity from my tour of the shops:

>
> *JUSTINE, SCREENPLAY BY IVAN MOFFAT. BASED ON LAWRENCE DURRELL'S "THE 
> ALEXANDRIA QUARTET, JUNE 12, 1967".*
> Lawrence Durrell].
> Bookseller: Graham York Rare Books ABA ILAB
> (Honiton, DE, United Kingdom)     Price: US$ 599.82
>
> Book Description: 1967, 4to, typescript of the revised screenplay, 
> "Property of 20th Century Fox Film Corporation", pp(iv) + 145 
> typewritten pages, Ivan Moffat's own copy with his ink name on the 
> front cover, and *an interesting manuscript note from him opposite 
> page 87, "This street..still exists; I was arrested there in Oct. '59 
> for taking photographs of a slum there, which the officer presumed, 
> wrongly, were to be used as anti-Egyptian propoganda". *Original blue 
> printed wrappers. The film appeared in 1969, with Anouk Aimee as 
> Justine, and also featuring Dirk Bogarde and Michael York. According 
> to the International Movie Database the writing credits list Larry 
> Marcus (whose pencil name appears on an inserted sheet) and Andrew 
> Sarris, and the film is not lis, 1969. Very good.


-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Mon Jul  2 18:51:17 2007
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:51:17 +1000
Subject: [ilds] High Durrell
Message-ID: <000c01c7bd14$a59fd720$0202a8c0@MumandDad>

Charles, I think a dive into Bitter Lemons would be, dare I say it, great. Durrell is arguably at this time (1957) at his peak; in good health, with some published books under his belt, useful life experiences in the corps diplomatique and as a press officer on Rhodes and, after the Yugoslavian sojourne, at leisure to give his writing the time and effort it needed.

he clearly loved the village of Bellapaix and, unlike in Prospero and Reflections, he lives among the Greek peasants, at least initially, not apart from them as part of an artistic or military elite observing the quaint manners of the locals. The peasants of Bitter Lemons are not figures in an idyllic landscape only - although they are this too - but are portrayed as real people, live, quaint, humorous - and dangerous. We laugh at the mad caperings of Frangos but remember that he is also large, armed and wants freedom. This is the tension of Bitter Lemons and also its tragedy: the affections of most Geeks for the English set against the drive for enosis. It left both sides rather sad.

" Despite the political tide, I could count on sympathies based in common neighbourliness. Indeed never once in the dark days to come did the affection of my village neighbours falter" (p 81  Faber paperback edition)

"Indeed Cypriot manners at their worst never came near the stupidities and impertinences I endured from the Scots on my only visit to the Rump." (ibid p 80)

Please, what happened to Durrell in Scotland!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


Denise Tart & David Green
16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204

+61 2 9564 6165
0412 707 625
dtart at bigpond.net.au
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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Mon Jul  2 19:24:08 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:24:08 -0400
Subject: [ilds] High Durrell
In-Reply-To: <000c01c7bd14$a59fd720$0202a8c0@MumandDad>
References: <000c01c7bd14$a59fd720$0202a8c0@MumandDad>
Message-ID: <4689B348.6050705@wfu.edu>

On 7/2/2007 9:51 PM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote:

> Charles, I think a dive into Bitter Lemons would be, dare I say it, 
> great.

Glad to have your vote.  Look for the full announcement tomorrow. 

Diving on!

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Mon Jul  2 20:52:47 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:52:47 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Justine's parts
In-Reply-To: <28552092.1183315374823.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.
	earthlink.net>
References: <28552092.1183315374823.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070703035235.NVDU7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From richardpin at eircom.net  Tue Jul  3 01:07:16 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 09:07:16 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
References: <884C2A82-28DF-11DC-B961-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <008e01c7bd49$2e1e7a00$6799e9d5@rpinelaptop>

Michael
Today the kids are taught theory first and literature (if at all) second. 
They therefore read (Durrell) not for what (Durrell) wrote but for the 
Derridaftness they have been taught to detect within the text. Their 
con-text is the theory, not the context in which (Durrell) conceived or 
wrote the book.
RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Haag" <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
To: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>; <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons


> What is wrong is to come up with ideas, theories, or whatever about a
> work which are entirely untethered to anything like context.
>
> :Michael
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 08:28  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>> James, good to have a companion here.  Good summary.  I'm with you on
>> your points 2-3, but can't go along with 1 and 4.  As for 1, authors
>> are probably always reworking reality to suit their ends, so I don't
>> know what "reality usurps literary interventions" means.  And as for
>> 4, I just don't believe Barthes's axiom and will not turn a literary
>> work over to the whims of the reader.  Now, you may say the proposal
>> that Othello influences Bitter Lemons is a whim, but I say I tried to
>> anchor that allusion in its appropriateness to the text and Durrell's
>> life/method.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Jul 2, 2007 9:54 AM
>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>>>
>>> Bruce notes the inconvenience of biography or fact in literary
>>> reading,
>>> which prevents a reader from spotting allusions or affinities.
>>>
>>> I think this is a general point -- Durrell wrote an opening to _Bitter
>>> Lemons_ that coincides nicely with his previous allusions to
>>> Shakespeare
>>> and conjured up a 'readerly' allusion to "Othello."  Why would fact
>>> prevent that reading?  Durrell did write it (or at least it's in his
>>> book...), so the possible allusion stands, regardless of its origins.
>>>
>>> I see a few possibilities (and we've been tripping over these lately
>>> in
>>> reading _Justine_):
>>>
>>> 1) when a fictional incident is based on biography or history, we are
>>> barred from literary readings.  Despite appearing in a work of
>>> fiction,
>>> reality usurps literary interventions.
>>>
>>> 2) autobiography or history is open to literary readings because, even
>>> in telling the truth, I can tell it in a way that draws on a rich vein
>>> of literary tradition.
>>>
>>> 3) we must rely on the author's intended effects, privileging (there's
>>> that word, Michael) it over the reader's experience -- or, vice
>>> versa...
>>>
>>> 4) we rely on the text ready to hand -- an author's intentions are
>>> always open to doubt, so we have the death of the author and the
>>> long-awaited birth of the text.
>>>
>>> Personally, I'm something of a bastard.  I like to use all four
>>> approaches (5 with the dual options in #3) whenever they suit me.  And
>>> since I'm the one holding the book or writing the new text about it,
>>> I'll keep doing exactly as I like -- hopefully I tend to pick the one
>>> that's most exciting for the occasion.
>>>
>>> Also, one of the reasons I like Durrell is that all five often operate
>>> quite well at the same time.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> James
>>>
>>> Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>> How inconvenient, but only a minor inconvenience.
>>>> Let's not be deterred by facts.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Tue Jul  3 04:46:49 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 12:46:49 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
In-Reply-To: <008e01c7bd49$2e1e7a00$6799e9d5@rpinelaptop>
Message-ID: <156A862D-295B-11DC-AC3E-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Dear Richard

Thanks.

There was a time when theory said that the world was flat.  But before 
that Eratosthenes knew better, and after that Christopher Columbus knew 
better too.  Maybe there should be a course in the history of stupid 
and useless theories.

Ever

Michael




On Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 09:07  am, Richard Pine wrote:

> Michael
> Today the kids are taught theory first and literature (if at all) 
> second.
> They therefore read (Durrell) not for what (Durrell) wrote but for the
> Derridaftness they have been taught to detect within the text. Their
> con-text is the theory, not the context in which (Durrell) conceived or
> wrote the book.
> RP
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Haag" <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> To: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>; <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>
>
>> What is wrong is to come up with ideas, theories, or whatever about a
>> work which are entirely untethered to anything like context.
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 08:28  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>
>>> James, good to have a companion here.  Good summary.  I'm with you on
>>> your points 2-3, but can't go along with 1 and 4.  As for 1, authors
>>> are probably always reworking reality to suit their ends, so I don't
>>> know what "reality usurps literary interventions" means.  And as for
>>> 4, I just don't believe Barthes's axiom and will not turn a literary
>>> work over to the whims of the reader.  Now, you may say the proposal
>>> that Othello influences Bitter Lemons is a whim, but I say I tried to
>>> anchor that allusion in its appropriateness to the text and Durrell's
>>> life/method.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Jul 2, 2007 9:54 AM
>>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>>>>
>>>> Bruce notes the inconvenience of biography or fact in literary
>>>> reading,
>>>> which prevents a reader from spotting allusions or affinities.
>>>>
>>>> I think this is a general point -- Durrell wrote an opening to 
>>>> _Bitter
>>>> Lemons_ that coincides nicely with his previous allusions to
>>>> Shakespeare
>>>> and conjured up a 'readerly' allusion to "Othello."  Why would fact
>>>> prevent that reading?  Durrell did write it (or at least it's in his
>>>> book...), so the possible allusion stands, regardless of its 
>>>> origins.
>>>>
>>>> I see a few possibilities (and we've been tripping over these lately
>>>> in
>>>> reading _Justine_):
>>>>
>>>> 1) when a fictional incident is based on biography or history, we 
>>>> are
>>>> barred from literary readings.  Despite appearing in a work of
>>>> fiction,
>>>> reality usurps literary interventions.
>>>>
>>>> 2) autobiography or history is open to literary readings because, 
>>>> even
>>>> in telling the truth, I can tell it in a way that draws on a rich 
>>>> vein
>>>> of literary tradition.
>>>>
>>>> 3) we must rely on the author's intended effects, privileging 
>>>> (there's
>>>> that word, Michael) it over the reader's experience -- or, vice
>>>> versa...
>>>>
>>>> 4) we rely on the text ready to hand -- an author's intentions are
>>>> always open to doubt, so we have the death of the author and the
>>>> long-awaited birth of the text.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I'm something of a bastard.  I like to use all four
>>>> approaches (5 with the dual options in #3) whenever they suit me.  
>>>> And
>>>> since I'm the one holding the book or writing the new text about it,
>>>> I'll keep doing exactly as I like -- hopefully I tend to pick the 
>>>> one
>>>> that's most exciting for the occasion.
>>>>
>>>> Also, one of the reasons I like Durrell is that all five often 
>>>> operate
>>>> quite well at the same time.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> James
>>>>
>>>> Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>>> How inconvenient, but only a minor inconvenience.
>>>>> Let's not be deterred by facts.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ILDS mailing list
>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Tue Jul  3 06:03:54 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 14:03:54 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Justine - pole star criminal
Message-ID: <DA1A5E16-2965-11DC-AC3E-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Before we crash out of Justine, there is something I am curious about 
in the last section, what Durrell initially called Consequential Data 
and later called Work Points.

There are the character-squeezes.  Some of these people are characters 
in Justine, and some are not.  There is one that particularly arouses 
my interest, and that is 'Ahmed Zananiri: pole-star criminal'.  Durrell 
knew a Zananiri in Alexandria (his first name was Gaston, and he served 
in some measure as the model for Balthazar); but what does 'pole-star 
criminal' bring to mind?

:Michael

  


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Jul  3 06:54:23 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 06:54:23 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
Message-ID: <14986664.1183470864016.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

True.  Read articles in prestigious academic journals and you know this to be true.  To get accepted, the essay must first be "theoretical."  The death-knell is to be called, "untheoretical."

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>Sent: Jul 3, 2007 1:07 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>
>Michael
>Today the kids are taught theory first and literature (if at all) second. 
>They therefore read (Durrell) not for what (Durrell) wrote but for the 
>Derridaftness they have been taught to detect within the text. Their 
>con-text is the theory, not the context in which (Durrell) conceived or 
>wrote the book.
>RP
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Michael Haag" <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>To: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>; <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:02 PM
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>
>
>> What is wrong is to come up with ideas, theories, or whatever about a
>> work which are entirely untethered to anything like context.
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 08:28  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>
>>> James, good to have a companion here.  Good summary.  I'm with you on
>>> your points 2-3, but can't go along with 1 and 4.  As for 1, authors
>>> are probably always reworking reality to suit their ends, so I don't
>>> know what "reality usurps literary interventions" means.  And as for
>>> 4, I just don't believe Barthes's axiom and will not turn a literary
>>> work over to the whims of the reader.  Now, you may say the proposal
>>> that Othello influences Bitter Lemons is a whim, but I say I tried to
>>> anchor that allusion in its appropriateness to the text and Durrell's
>>> life/method.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Jul 2, 2007 9:54 AM
>>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Bitter Lemons
>>>>
>>>> Bruce notes the inconvenience of biography or fact in literary
>>>> reading,
>>>> which prevents a reader from spotting allusions or affinities.
>>>>
>>>> I think this is a general point -- Durrell wrote an opening to _Bitter
>>>> Lemons_ that coincides nicely with his previous allusions to
>>>> Shakespeare
>>>> and conjured up a 'readerly' allusion to "Othello."  Why would fact
>>>> prevent that reading?  Durrell did write it (or at least it's in his
>>>> book...), so the possible allusion stands, regardless of its origins.
>>>>
>>>> I see a few possibilities (and we've been tripping over these lately
>>>> in
>>>> reading _Justine_):
>>>>
>>>> 1) when a fictional incident is based on biography or history, we are
>>>> barred from literary readings.  Despite appearing in a work of
>>>> fiction,
>>>> reality usurps literary interventions.
>>>>
>>>> 2) autobiography or history is open to literary readings because, even
>>>> in telling the truth, I can tell it in a way that draws on a rich vein
>>>> of literary tradition.
>>>>
>>>> 3) we must rely on the author's intended effects, privileging (there's
>>>> that word, Michael) it over the reader's experience -- or, vice
>>>> versa...
>>>>
>>>> 4) we rely on the text ready to hand -- an author's intentions are
>>>> always open to doubt, so we have the death of the author and the
>>>> long-awaited birth of the text.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I'm something of a bastard.  I like to use all four
>>>> approaches (5 with the dual options in #3) whenever they suit me.  And
>>>> since I'm the one holding the book or writing the new text about it,
>>>> I'll keep doing exactly as I like -- hopefully I tend to pick the one
>>>> that's most exciting for the occasion.
>>>>
>>>> Also, one of the reasons I like Durrell is that all five often operate
>>>> quite well at the same time.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> James
>>>>
>>>> Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>>> How inconvenient, but only a minor inconvenience.
>>>>> Let's not be deterred by facts.


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Jul  3 07:13:21 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 07:13:21 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Justine - pole star criminal
Message-ID: <28112307.1183472002245.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Cf. the dedication to the Menuhins in Sicilian Carousel:  "For Diana and Yehudi, fixed stars."  Pole-stars or fixed stars are positive attributes.  Nor do I know of any maleficent stars in Durrell's universe.  This doesn't explain Ahmed Zananiri, but the epithet suggests, to me, a paradox or oxymoron.  Whoever the guy is, Durrell admires him.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 3, 2007 6:03 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] Justine - pole star criminal
>
>Before we crash out of Justine, there is something I am curious about 
>in the last section, what Durrell initially called Consequential Data 
>and later called Work Points.
>
>There are the character-squeezes.  Some of these people are characters 
>in Justine, and some are not.  There is one that particularly arouses 
>my interest, and that is 'Ahmed Zananiri: pole-star criminal'.  Durrell 
>knew a Zananiri in Alexandria (his first name was Gaston, and he served 
>in some measure as the model for Balthazar); but what does 'pole-star 
>criminal' bring to mind?
>
>:Michael
>
>  
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Jul  3 09:38:14 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 09:38:14 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- durrell in the bookshops (a postscript
 before parting)
Message-ID: <5883102.1183480695109.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I have a Faber lst, 2nd impression of Justine and a 1st of Clea.  The former I bought for $9 US.  I also have the Dutton, one-volume edition of the Quartet (1962), signed by LD himself, copy 114, bought in 1962 for about $30 US.  That edition does not use the original font.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 7:08 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: RG Justine -- durrell in the bookshops (a postscript before parting)
>
>I am just back from reading through bookshop inventories, and Durrell's 
>/Justine /continues its rise with no stopping in sight.  Anyone seeking 
>a Faber 1st edition/1st impression of /Justine /with dust jacket will 
>find a single copy running from around US $2300 - $4500.   A Faber 
>1st/2nd impression shows up for around US $500.  Rather curiously, even 
>the Dutton edition of /Justine /now sometime runs into several hundred 
>dollars, and the Franklin Library signed edition has jumped to US $160 - 
>$200, which is a significant rise from the last time I checked. 
>
>So there is my answer for Bruce.  /Justine /is by no means "broken."  
>Rather the novel is a sound investment.  Hold on to what you have. 
> 


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Tue Jul  3 10:39:33 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 18:39:33 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Justine - pole star criminal
In-Reply-To: <28112307.1183472002245.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5C3CC97C-298C-11DC-88E6-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Ah, interesting: so you think that to be a pole-star criminal is a 
positive attribute, not a deviation from a positive attribute.  Or if a 
deviation, then an admirable one.

:Michael



On Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 03:13  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:

> Cf. the dedication to the Menuhins in Sicilian Carousel:  "For Diana 
> and Yehudi, fixed stars."  Pole-stars or fixed stars are positive 
> attributes.  Nor do I know of any maleficent stars in Durrell's 
> universe.  This doesn't explain Ahmed Zananiri, but the epithet 
> suggests, to me, a paradox or oxymoron.  Whoever the guy is, Durrell 
> admires him.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>> Sent: Jul 3, 2007 6:03 AM
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: [ilds] Justine - pole star criminal
>>
>> Before we crash out of Justine, there is something I am curious about
>> in the last section, what Durrell initially called Consequential Data
>> and later called Work Points.
>>
>> There are the character-squeezes.  Some of these people are characters
>> in Justine, and some are not.  There is one that particularly arouses
>> my interest, and that is 'Ahmed Zananiri: pole-star criminal'.  
>> Durrell
>> knew a Zananiri in Alexandria (his first name was Gaston, and he 
>> served
>> in some measure as the model for Balthazar); but what does 'pole-star
>> criminal' bring to mind?
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Jul  3 10:53:22 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:53:22 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Justine - pole star criminal
Message-ID: <30218799.1183485202436.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Michael:

Yes, a perverse way to credit the discreditable -- that's my gut reaction.  And isn't that just like Durrell?  I also find the name puzzling:  Ahmed (Islamic?) Zananiri (Italian or European?).  Maybe such weird combinations were common in syncretic Alexandria -- you would know -- but it strikes me as odd and possibly reinforces the oxymoron of "pole-star criminal."

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 3, 2007 10:39 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Justine - pole star criminal
>
>Ah, interesting: so you think that to be a pole-star criminal is a 
>positive attribute, not a deviation from a positive attribute.  Or if a 
>deviation, then an admirable one.
>
>:Michael
>
>
>
>On Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 03:13  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>> Cf. the dedication to the Menuhins in Sicilian Carousel:  "For Diana 
>> and Yehudi, fixed stars."  Pole-stars or fixed stars are positive 
>> attributes.  Nor do I know of any maleficent stars in Durrell's 
>> universe.  This doesn't explain Ahmed Zananiri, but the epithet 
>> suggests, to me, a paradox or oxymoron.  Whoever the guy is, Durrell 
>> admires him.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>> Sent: Jul 3, 2007 6:03 AM
>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> Subject: [ilds] Justine - pole star criminal
>>>
>>> Before we crash out of Justine, there is something I am curious about
>>> in the last section, what Durrell initially called Consequential Data
>>> and later called Work Points.
>>>
>>> There are the character-squeezes.  Some of these people are characters
>>> in Justine, and some are not.  There is one that particularly arouses
>>> my interest, and that is 'Ahmed Zananiri: pole-star criminal'.  
>>> Durrell
>>> knew a Zananiri in Alexandria (his first name was Gaston, and he 
>>> served
>>> in some measure as the model for Balthazar); but what does 'pole-star
>>> criminal' bring to mind?
>>>
>>> :Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Jul  3 11:30:04 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:30:04 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Freud Redux
Message-ID: <10194236.1183487404895.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Vittorio, thanks for the two pieces on Freud in Scientific American (May 2004).  (Presumably this is typical of the debate Beatrice Skordili refers to in the 2006 issue of the same magazine.)  Everyone should read them.  These support my previous criticisms of Freud.  Mark Solms's article deals superficially with Freudian theory, insofar as it pertains to an unconscious mechanism and repression.  That framework of the human mind is not in dispute.  What is, is how Freud accounts for it, the mythology, "Seduction Theory," the real meat of Freudian analysis, and that has been shown bogus.  Solms makes no mention of this theory.  J. Allan Hobson, a professor at Harvard, goes even further than I would in criticizing Solms's article:  "Psychoanalysis is in big trouble, and no amount of neurobiological tinkering can fix it" (p. 89).

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Vittorio Celentano <vcel at ix.netcom.com>
>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 12:08 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Returns
>
>Beatrice Skordili and others,
>
>Attached is the article: Freud returns by Mark Solms
>
>Vittorio Celentano
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Beatrice Skordili" <bskordil at otenet.gr>
>To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 1:20 PM
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Returns
>
>
>> Marc and others,
>>
>> (as promised), the _Scientific American Mind_ in the April/May 2006 issue
>> contains a whole section devoted to Freud. The article I was thinking
>about
>> was by Mark Solms and titled "Freud Returns" (28-34).
>>     Also of interest might be Jean Pierre Changeux's _Neuronal Man: The
>> Biology of the Mind_.
>>
>> Happy Readings,
>>
>> Beatrice Skordili
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>


From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Tue Jul  3 11:42:42 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 20:42:42 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Justine - pole star criminal
In-Reply-To: <30218799.1183485202436.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <30218799.1183485202436.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <468A98A2.4000302@interdesign.fr>

Hello Bruce,
It seems to me that your "gut reactions" are often 
proven "? cot? de la plaque".
Perhaps you should keep them to yourself. No 
offence meant, but there is a time when one should 
be able to take stock and come to a conclusion!
Marc

Bruce Redwine wrote:

> Michael:
> 
> Yes, a perverse way to credit the discreditable -- that's my gut reaction.  And isn't that just like Durrell?  I also find the name puzzling:  Ahmed (Islamic?) Zananiri (Italian or European?).  Maybe such weird combinations were common in syncretic Alexandria -- you would know -- but it strikes me as odd and possibly reinforces the oxymoron of "pole-star criminal."
> 
> Bruce
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
>>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>Sent: Jul 3, 2007 10:39 AM
>>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Justine - pole star criminal
>>
>>Ah, interesting: so you think that to be a pole-star criminal is a 
>>positive attribute, not a deviation from a positive attribute.  Or if a 
>>deviation, then an admirable one.
>>
>>:Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>On Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 03:13  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Cf. the dedication to the Menuhins in Sicilian Carousel:  "For Diana 
>>>and Yehudi, fixed stars."  Pole-stars or fixed stars are positive 
>>>attributes.  Nor do I know of any maleficent stars in Durrell's 
>>>universe.  This doesn't explain Ahmed Zananiri, but the epithet 
>>>suggests, to me, a paradox or oxymoron.  Whoever the guy is, Durrell 
>>>admires him.
>>>
>>>Bruce
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>
>>>>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>>>Sent: Jul 3, 2007 6:03 AM
>>>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>Subject: [ilds] Justine - pole star criminal
>>>>
>>>>Before we crash out of Justine, there is something I am curious about
>>>>in the last section, what Durrell initially called Consequential Data
>>>>and later called Work Points.
>>>>
>>>>There are the character-squeezes.  Some of these people are characters
>>>>in Justine, and some are not.  There is one that particularly arouses
>>>>my interest, and that is 'Ahmed Zananiri: pole-star criminal'.  
>>>>Durrell
>>>>knew a Zananiri in Alexandria (his first name was Gaston, and he 
>>>>served
>>>>in some measure as the model for Balthazar); but what does 'pole-star
>>>>criminal' bring to mind?
>>>>
>>>>:Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ILDS mailing list
>>>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>ILDS mailing list
>>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 

From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Tue Jul  3 11:52:05 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 19:52:05 +0100
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- durrell in the bookshops (a postscript
	before parting)
In-Reply-To: <5883102.1183480695109.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <7E4A97E8-2996-11DC-88E6-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

DUTTON one volume 1962 or Faber?  I did not know there was a Dutton.

:Michael


On Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 05:38  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:

> I have a Faber lst, 2nd impression of Justine and a 1st of Clea.  The 
> former I bought for $9 US.  I also have the Dutton, one-volume edition 
> of the Quartet (1962), signed by LD himself, copy 114, bought in 1962 
> for about $30 US.  That edition does not use the original font.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>> Sent: Jul 2, 2007 7:08 PM
>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: RG Justine -- durrell in the bookshops (a postscript before 
>> parting)
>>
>> I am just back from reading through bookshop inventories, and 
>> Durrell's
>> /Justine /continues its rise with no stopping in sight.  Anyone 
>> seeking
>> a Faber 1st edition/1st impression of /Justine /with dust jacket will
>> find a single copy running from around US $2300 - $4500.   A Faber
>> 1st/2nd impression shows up for around US $500.  Rather curiously, 
>> even
>> the Dutton edition of /Justine /now sometime runs into several hundred
>> dollars, and the Franklin Library signed edition has jumped to US 
>> $160 -
>> $200, which is a significant rise from the last time I checked.
>>
>> So there is my answer for Bruce.  /Justine /is by no means "broken."
>> Rather the novel is a sound investment.  Hold on to what you have.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Tue Jul  3 12:00:35 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 15:00:35 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Justine - pole star criminal
In-Reply-To: <30218799.1183485202436.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <30218799.1183485202436.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <468A9CD3.4080404@wfu.edu>

On 7/3/2007 1:53 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:

>Michael:
>
>Yes, a perverse way to credit the discreditable -- that's my gut reaction.  And isn't that just like Durrell?  I also find the name puzzling:  Ahmed (Islamic?) Zananiri (Italian or European?).  Maybe such weird combinations were common in syncretic Alexandria -- you would know -- but it strikes me as odd and possibly reinforces the oxymoron of "pole-star criminal."
>
Yes--almost implying gravitational /quality/--or someone capable of 
making off with that grand prize.  I like the association of the last, 
which reaches out to "Raffles," /Gentleman Burglar/ and /Amateur 
Cracksman/. 

Let us recall Hornung.  Durrell did so in his "Minor Mythologies" essay. 


Illustration from 'The Amateur Cracksman' by E.W. Hornung

(And anyone taking note of that Raffles allusion please insert a small 
point of correction in my edition of "The Minor Mythologies."  Hornung's 
name is misgiven there as "/Henning/" in the notes for 347-348.  Oh 
those little signs of mortality that haunt an editor!)
. 


FROM DURRELL's WORKS, early to late:

>>
>>                     THEMES HERALDIC [from Collected Poems: 1931-1974
>>                     (1985), Faber and Faber]
>>
>
>                     VI
>
>             Call back the stars. They are too many, Lord.
>             Death takes us man by man. Old wars
>             Covet us with the trumpet, cover us. April
>             Gives in deceit her stammering flowers.
>
>             Desire like a doom, the boom boom of the surf
>             Tells us. *The slow-motion dive of the pole star *
>             To the rim of the morning, *the meaning of things*,
>             Builds your tent where we are.
>
>             How shall it be? Caught in the sun's red loom,
>             Be woven to rock, to water, a new manufacture.
>             By the moon drawn, a green dolphin,
>             Up into death sans fracture?
>
>             Answer. At wedding, at tea-time, in snow?
>             Or in the dog-days, surprised at an oar,
>             In a drawn breath
>             Shall see save me too near the fatal,
>             Your absolute and ghostly impact, Lord,
>             The white yacht---death? 1980//1938/
>



>         I must begin by saying that his favourite word was precarious:
>         whatever he wrote
>         and thought gravitated towards or away from* that word, his
>         pole-star.*  (/Monsieur/, 39: Viking, 1974)


>         I pondered the war news in the Egyptian Gazette and allowed
>         England a slight ache of nostalgia; but secretly my heart
>         turned to *the Pole Star of Provence*[. . . .]" (/Constance/,
>         62; Viking 1982)



[One additional  reference occurs in /Bitter Lemons/--I'll save that for 
our upcoming discussion.  But the 1957 date places it within reach of 
the genesis of the Workpoints in /Justine/.  Conclusion: Durrell really 
liked pole-stars in 1930, 1957 (x 2), 1974, and 1980.]

    FROM THE OED:
    *

>     *[< POLE n.2 + STAR n.1 Cf. POLAR STAR n.*

    *

>         1. a. A prominent star in the constellation Ursa Minor
>     ({alpha} Ursae Minoris) which is close to the north celestial pole
>     and may be used (in northern latitudes) to find the direction of
>     north.


>       Also called lodestar, North Star, Polaris, polar star;
>     {dag}cynosure, {dag}shipman's star.


>       2. fig. A person who or thing which serves as a guide; a
>     governing principle, a guiding light; (also) a centre of
>     attraction, a landmark. Cf. LODESTAR n. 2, CYNOSURE n. 2.


>     1590 E. DAUNCE Briefe Disc. Spanish State 43 Vertue being the
>     lodestone, or polestarre of perfect loue. 1604 T. WRIGHT Passions
>     of Minde IV. ii. ?3. 147 Pleasure is the pole-stare of all
>     inordinat passions. 1659 D. PELL
>     {Pi}{epsilon}{lambda}{alpha}{gamma}{omicron}{fsigma} To Rdr. sig.
>     d4, Let this Epistle bee thy Janisary, or Pole-star to the perusal
>     of this book. 1732 G. BERKELEY Alciphron II. VI. xix. 66 Common
>     sense alone is the Pole-star, by which Mankind ought to steer.
>     1798 S. T. COLERIDGE Coll. Lett. (1956) I. 433 It's high huge
>     Steeple..must be quite a Pole-Star. 1834 Tait's Mag. 1 387/2 His
>     moral pole-star was duty. 1890 T. H. HALL CAINE Bondman II. xiii,
>     The pole-star of my life is gone out. 1986 New Scientist 11 Dec.
>     47/1 Price went to southern California (as always the Pole Star
>     for American eccentrics) and organised..the Deluge Geology
>     Society. 2000 J. F. CALLAHAN in R. Ellison & A. Murray Trading
>     Twelves p. xii, Murray seems his friend's polestar, a point of
>     reference he counts on against personal and artistic uncertainties.


**

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Tue Jul  3 12:08:26 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 15:08:26 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Dutton omnibus
In-Reply-To: <7E4A97E8-2996-11DC-88E6-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <7E4A97E8-2996-11DC-88E6-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <468A9EAA.6000900@wfu.edu>

On 7/3/2007 2:52 PM, Michael Haag wrote:

>DUTTON one volume 1962 or Faber?  I did not know there was a Dutton.
>
Yes.  Dutton brought it out in 1962.  I have two copies, unsigned.

The Dutton omnibus has dropped out of sight since.  Dutton and Penguin 
clearly understood that more money is to be made from charging high 
prices on the individual volumes of the /Quartet/.

Still, it would be grand for Penguin to reissue.  I am supposing that 
they already own what Dutton once owned.  That act would help to bring 
the US and UK editions back into synchronicity.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Tue Jul  3 12:27:07 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 20:27:07 +0100
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Dutton omnibus
In-Reply-To: <468A9EAA.6000900@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <6350B03A-299B-11DC-88E6-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Are the paginations the same in the Faber and Dutton 1962 omnibi?

:M



On Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 08:08  pm, slighcl wrote:

> On 7/3/2007 2:52 PM, Michael Haag wrote:
>
> DUTTON one volume 1962 or Faber?  I did not know there was a Dutton.
>
> Yes.? Dutton brought it out in 1962.? I have two copies, unsigned.
>
> The Dutton omnibus has dropped out of sight since.? Dutton and Penguin 
> clearly understood that more money is to be made from charging high 
> prices on the individual volumes of the Quartet.
>
> Still, it would be grand for Penguin to reissue.? I am supposing that 
> they already own what Dutton once owned.? That act would help to bring 
> the US and UK editions back into synchronicity.
>
> Charles
>
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Jul  3 12:47:32 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 12:47:32 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Dutton omnibus
Message-ID: <4930169.1183492053135.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Yes, for the most part, but there's variation in the front matter.  Both texts begin on p. 17 and correspond exactly to the end, except that the preceding is a little transposed.  E.g., [p. 16] in Faber has the dedication, whereas [p. 16] in Dutton has the epigraph.  I was wrong about the fonts -- they're the same.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 3, 2007 12:27 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine -- Dutton omnibus
>
>Are the paginations the same in the Faber and Dutton 1962 omnibi?
>
>:M
>
>
>
>On Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 08:08  pm, slighcl wrote:
>
>> On 7/3/2007 2:52 PM, Michael Haag wrote:
>>
>> DUTTON one volume 1962 or Faber?  I did not know there was a Dutton.
>>
>> Yes.  Dutton brought it out in 1962.  I have two copies, unsigned.
>>
>> The Dutton omnibus has dropped out of sight since.  Dutton and Penguin 
>> clearly understood that more money is to be made from charging high 
>> prices on the individual volumes of the Quartet.
>>
>> Still, it would be grand for Penguin to reissue.  I am supposing that 
>> they already own what Dutton once owned.  That act would help to bring 
>> the US and UK editions back into synchronicity.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Tue Jul  3 14:04:35 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 22:04:35 +0100
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Dutton omnibus
In-Reply-To: <4930169.1183492053135.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <010775CF-29A9-11DC-BD71-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

So Faber probably did a run-on print-run for Dutton, and once that was 
exhausted the omnibus never travelled American roads again.

:Michael


On Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 08:47  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:

> Yes, for the most part, but there's variation in the front matter.  
> Both texts begin on p. 17 and correspond exactly to the end, except 
> that the preceding is a little transposed.  E.g., [p. 16] in Faber has 
> the dedication, whereas [p. 16] in Dutton has the epigraph.  I was 
> wrong about the fonts -- they're the same.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>> Sent: Jul 3, 2007 12:27 PM
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine -- Dutton omnibus
>>
>> Are the paginations the same in the Faber and Dutton 1962 omnibi?
>>
>> :M
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 08:08  pm, slighcl wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/3/2007 2:52 PM, Michael Haag wrote:
>>>
>>> DUTTON one volume 1962 or Faber?  I did not know there was a Dutton.
>>>
>>> Yes.  Dutton brought it out in 1962.  I have two copies, unsigned.
>>>
>>> The Dutton omnibus has dropped out of sight since.  Dutton and 
>>> Penguin
>>> clearly understood that more money is to be made from charging high
>>> prices on the individual volumes of the Quartet.
>>>
>>> Still, it would be grand for Penguin to reissue.  I am supposing that
>>> they already own what Dutton once owned.  That act would help to 
>>> bring
>>> the US and UK editions back into synchronicity.
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Tue Jul  3 13:54:20 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 22:54:20 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Freud Returns
In-Reply-To: <23717880.1183411510928.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <23717880.1183411510928.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <468AB77C.6040307@interdesign.fr>

so bruce, how does this sustain your "gut 
feelings"??????

For decades, Freudian concepts such as ego, id and 
repressed desires
dominated psychology and psychiatry?s attempts to 
cure mental illnesses.
But better understanding of brain chemistry 
gradually replaced this model
with a biological explanation of how the mind 
arises from neuronal activity.

The latest attempts to piece together diverse 
neurological findings, however,
are leading to a chemical framework of the mind 
that validates the general
sketch Freud made almost a century ago. A growing 
group of scientists are
eager to reconcile neurology and psychiatry into a 
unified theory.



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Jul  3 14:46:26 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 14:46:26 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Freud Returns
Message-ID: <15276212.1183499186528.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Yes, absolutely.  Read carefully what I previously said about the "framework"
of human mind/consciousness vs. the mythology to account for same.  There's 
a tremendous difference between the two.  Solms hasn't proved anything about
Freud's crackpot theories of the origins of repression -- in fact, he conveniently
avoids discussing them.  Did you read the J. Allan Hobson's piece?:  "Psychoanalysis
is in big trouble, and no amount of neurobiological tinkering can fix it" (p.
89).

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Marc Piel <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
>Sent: Jul 3, 2007 1:54 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Returns
>
>so bruce, how does this sustain your "gut 
>feelings"??????
>
>For decades, Freudian concepts such as ego, id and 
>repressed desires
>dominated psychology and psychiatry?s attempts to 
>cure mental illnesses.
>But better understanding of brain chemistry 
>gradually replaced this model
>with a biological explanation of how the mind 
>arises from neuronal activity.
>
>The latest attempts to piece together diverse 
>neurological findings, however,
>are leading to a chemical framework of the mind 
>that validates the general
>sketch Freud made almost a century ago. A growing 
>group of scientists are
>eager to reconcile neurology and psychiatry into a 
>unified theory.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Jul  3 14:53:25 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 14:53:25 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Freud Redux Redux
Message-ID: <20656890.1183499605940.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Marc, if you want to apply "selected fictions" to how we interpret Freud, then the choice is there for you to make.  If you want believe that Freud's theory of repression results from sexual abuse in childhood, then that's your choice.  I am not a scientist, but those who are have looked for proof of Freud's theory and have found none.  I'll follow their judgment.

Bruce

>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Marc Piel <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
>>Sent: Jul 3, 2007 2:31 PM
>>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Returns
>>
>>I can't help coming back to a quotation of LD "we 
>>each live selected fictions". (Not the exact 
>>words, but the exact meaning).
>>Marc
>>
>>Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, absolutely.  Read carefully what I previously said about the "framework" of human mind/consciousness vs. the mythology to account for same.  There's a tremendous difference between the two.  Solms hasn't proved anything about Freud's crackpot theories of the origins of repression -- in fact, he conveniently avoids discussing them.  Did you read the J. Allan Hobson's piece?:  "Psychoanalysis is in big trouble, and no amount of neurobiological tinkering can fix it" (p. 89).
>>> 
>>> Bruce
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> 
>>>>From: Marc Piel <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
>>>>Sent: Jul 3, 2007 1:54 PM
>>>>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Returns
>>>>
>>>>so bruce, how does this sustain your "gut 
>>>>feelings"??????
>>>>
>>>>For decades, Freudian concepts such as ego, id and 
>>>>repressed desires
>>>>dominated psychology and psychiatry?s attempts to 
>>>>cure mental illnesses.
>>>>But better understanding of brain chemistry 
>>>>gradually replaced this model
>>>>with a biological explanation of how the mind 
>>>>arises from neuronal activity.
>>>>
>>>>The latest attempts to piece together diverse 
>>>>neurological findings, however,
>>>>are leading to a chemical framework of the mind 
>>>>that validates the general
>>>>sketch Freud made almost a century ago. A growing 
>>>>group of scientists are
>>>>eager to reconcile neurology and psychiatry into a 
>>>>unified theory.




From slighcl at wfu.edu  Tue Jul  3 16:40:15 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:40:15 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Dutton omnibus
In-Reply-To: <4930169.1183492053135.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <4930169.1183492053135.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <468ADE5F.7050905@wfu.edu>



On 7/3/2007 3:47 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:

>I was wrong about the fonts -- they're the same.
>
I am getting crossed signals here, Bruce.  I read your earlier note 
about the typefaces as referring to differences between the Faber 1957 
/Justine /and the Faber 1962 /Quartet/.  Those are definitely different 
typefaces.

The Dutton 1962 /Quartet /was printed in the UK.  As you might imagine, 
the US Dutton and the UK Fabers are set in the same typefaces. 

And that tricking about with the epigraphs and the note seems to be 
house practice at Dutton.  I wonder if Dutton was required to do that in 
order to distinguish their books from the Faber UKs?   It does not make 
sense, but then quite a bit about 19th and 20th century publishing looks 
terribly provincial and antique in these more globalized days of the 
book trade--e.g., references to "dominions" and "Empire" &c.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Tue Jul  3 16:43:00 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:43:00 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Dutton omnibus
In-Reply-To: <010775CF-29A9-11DC-BD71-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <010775CF-29A9-11DC-BD71-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <468ADF04.30209@wfu.edu>



On 7/3/2007 5:04 PM, Michael Haag wrote:

>So Faber probably did a run-on print-run for Dutton, and once that was 
>exhausted the omnibus never travelled American roads again.
>
Yes. 

Did anyone ever see the Dutton omnibus in paperback?  Did that occur?  I 
have found no records of that ever having been produced.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************



From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Tue Jul  3 16:46:25 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 00:46:25 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Corfu memoirs
Message-ID: <9CB0F774-29BF-11DC-A1AB-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>



http://isralit.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/the-transforming-lens-of-memory/


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Tue Jul  3 17:30:50 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 20:30:50 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- say farewell,
	farewell to Alexandria leaving
Message-ID: <468AEA3A.9030900@wfu.edu>

Dear ILDS listserv:

The Reading Group will now move on to a discussion of /Bitter Lemons/ 
(1957), which Durrell once claimed "completes a trilogy of island books" 
("Preface"). /

/In some/ /ways, with /Bitter Lemons/ we are moving into a different 
genre and a very distinct book.  In other ways/, /we will discover that 
/Justine /is inescapably, "invariably" also there in these pages.  After 
all, /Bitter Lemons/, which appeared in July 1957, shares a publication 
year with /Justine/, which appeared in February 1957.   Indeed, its 
sales were buoyed greatly by the success of /Justine/.  /Bitter Lemons/ 
sold out of its first two impressions by the end of July 1957; a third 
impression followed by August 1957; a fourth by September 1957; and so 
on.  As these figures show, it was an incredible moment and the key year 
for Lawrence Durrell as a publishing phenomenon.

For our opening gambit, we will read the first chapter, "Towards an 
Eastern Landfall."  The differences between reading texts should not be 
significant for anyone reading the early Faber and Dutton cloth and 
paper editions of /Bitter Lemons/.  Following our established practice 
in reading /Justine /as a group, it might be helpful to cite the 
episode/section numbers, which are designated by little ornaments  
within these chapters.

So now it begins--"not a political book, but simply a somewhat 
impressionistic study of the moods and atmospheres of Cyprus during the 
troubled years 1953-6" ("Preface").

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Tue Jul  3 18:31:19 2007
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 11:31:19 +1000
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Politics
Message-ID: <008301c7bddb$073fd5e0$0202a8c0@MumandDad>

Regarding the comment that Bitter Lemons is not a political book (Preface) I think that what Durrell means here is that it is not a book of obvious political analysis from the perspective a government official, but it is a political book. The menace of enosis politics lurks behing many characters and scenes and creates the tension and drama of the story. what Durrell has done is to convert what could have been, in another's hands, a dry analysis of what went wrong into a 'factional' novel in which the unfolding drama is told through and highlighted by characters real, adapted or, possibly, imaginary. In doing this Lawrence is very conscious of his sullen art and craft (Thomas) as a capable and evocative writer. My point is that Bitter Lemons is a political book, but a highly ingenious one that is far from impressionistic - Durrell is too obviously crafting the text to make that claim.

Denise Tart & David Green
16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204

+61 2 9564 6165
0412 707 625
dtart at bigpond.net.au
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From vcel at ix.netcom.com  Tue Jul  3 23:04:36 2007
From: vcel at ix.netcom.com (Vittorio Celentano)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 02:04:36 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Freud Redux
References: <10194236.1183487404895.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000701c7be01$35b15f90$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>

Bruce, Beatrice Skordili amd others

Beatrice Skordili mentioned "Neuronal Man" which you can retrieve by
clicking on this link.

http://books.google.com/books?id=VNTg65xuuR4C&dq=%22jean+pierre%22+changeux+the+neuronal+man&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=VKV883LUu1&sig=2fJNbxV3ZaAW-FabPRZtHrzi_W0

Vittorio

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Redux


> Vittorio, thanks for the two pieces on Freud in Scientific American (May
2004).  (Presumably this is typical of the debate Beatrice Skordili refers
to in the 2006 issue of the same magazine.)  Everyone should read them.
These support my previous criticisms of Freud.  Mark Solms's article deals
superficially with Freudian theory, insofar as it pertains to an unconscious
mechanism and repression.  That framework of the human mind is not in
dispute.  What is, is how Freud accounts for it, the mythology, "Seduction
Theory," the real meat of Freudian analysis, and that has been shown bogus.
Solms makes no mention of this theory.  J. Allan Hobson, a professor at
Harvard, goes even further than I would in criticizing Solms's article:
"Psychoanalysis is in big trouble, and no amount of neurobiological
tinkering can fix it" (p. 89).
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Vittorio Celentano <vcel at ix.netcom.com>
> >Sent: Jul 2, 2007 12:08 PM
> >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Returns
> >
> >Beatrice Skordili and others,
> >
> >Attached is the article: Freud returns by Mark Solms
> >
> >Vittorio Celentano
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >From: "Beatrice Skordili" <bskordil at otenet.gr>
> >To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> >Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 1:20 PM
> >Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Returns
> >
> >
> >> Marc and others,
> >>
> >> (as promised), the _Scientific American Mind_ in the April/May 2006
issue
> >> contains a whole section devoted to Freud. The article I was thinking
> >about
> >> was by Mark Solms and titled "Freud Returns" (28-34).
> >>     Also of interest might be Jean Pierre Changeux's _Neuronal Man: The
> >> Biology of the Mind_.
> >>
> >> Happy Readings,
> >>
> >> Beatrice Skordili
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> ILDS mailing list
> >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> >>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul  4 06:54:22 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 06:54:22 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Corfu memoirs
Message-ID: <9032479.1183557262842.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Michael:

"I do wonder, though, why Gerald chose to describe in detail scenes involving his family, including his brother Lawrence, but did not mention Nancy even in passing."

My recollections of LD's and his brother's accounts of Corfu are too sketchy to know if this author got the facts right.  I guess you have a theory why Nancy is left out.  She's not much of a presence in Prospero's Cell either, as I dimly recall.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 3, 2007 4:46 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] Corfu memoirs
>
>
>
>http://isralit.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/the-transforming-lens-of-memory/
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Wed Jul  4 07:10:43 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 10:10:43 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Corfu memoirs & "N."
In-Reply-To: <9032479.1183557262842.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <9032479.1183557262842.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <468BAA62.9010005@wfu.edu>

On 7/4/2007 9:54 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:

>She's not much of a presence in Prospero's Cell either, as I dimly recall.
>
Nancy of course appears under the sign of "N." in /Prospero's Cell/, and 
at least for this reader that enigmatic initial has always made her more 
magnetic and, strangely, more present. 

I will recall here that (at least in the account given in /Prospero's 
Cell/) it is "N." who decides to build "a garden on the rock outside the 
house"--"the design is N.'s."  And it is "N." who purchases and 
christens the cutter, the "Van Norden." 

And this image permanently tattoos "N." upon my memory in its power:

        The windows give directly on to the sea[. . . .] By day it runs
        golden on the ceilings, reflecting back the bright peasant
        rugs--a ship, a gorgon, a loom, a cypress tree; reflecting back
        the warm crude pottery of our table; reflecting back N. now
        brown-skinned and blonde, reading in a chair with her legs
        tucked under her.  Calm eyes, calm hair, and clear white teeth
        like those of a young carnivore.  As Father Nicholas says: "What
        more does a man want than an olive-tree, a native island, and
        [a] woman from his own place?"

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul  4 07:26:00 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 07:26:00 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Corfu memoirs &
Message-ID: <20084574.1183559160710.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Yes, she's there in the backgound, but not prominent, as eerie as Kafka's habit of identifying a character by a single letter (K. im SchloB).

Bruce 

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Jul 4, 2007 7:10 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Corfu memoirs & "N."
>
>On 7/4/2007 9:54 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>>She's not much of a presence in Prospero's Cell either, as I dimly recall.
>>
>Nancy of course appears under the sign of "N." in /Prospero's Cell/, and 
>at least for this reader that enigmatic initial has always made her more 
>magnetic and, strangely, more present. 
>
>I will recall here that (at least in the account given in /Prospero's 
>Cell/) it is "N." who decides to build "a garden on the rock outside the 
>house"--"the design is N.'s."  And it is "N." who purchases and 
>christens the cutter, the "Van Norden." 
>
>And this image permanently tattoos "N." upon my memory in its power:
>
>        The windows give directly on to the sea[. . . .] By day it runs
>        golden on the ceilings, reflecting back the bright peasant
>        rugs--a ship, a gorgon, a loom, a cypress tree; reflecting back
>        the warm crude pottery of our table; reflecting back N. now
>        brown-skinned and blonde, reading in a chair with her legs
>        tucked under her.  Calm eyes, calm hair, and clear white teeth
>        like those of a young carnivore.  As Father Nicholas says: "What
>        more does a man want than an olive-tree, a native island, and
>        [a] woman from his own place?"
>
>Charles



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul  4 07:54:00 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 07:54:00 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Freud Exposed
Message-ID: <5052812.1183560840823.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Marc Piel says,

>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Marc Piel <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
>>Sent: Jul 3, 2007 3:03 PM
>>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Freud Returns
>>
>>Sorry Bruce, I am just arguing that some have 
>>successfully carried out research that show that 
>>Freud was not wrong; you therfore are wrong to 
>>treat him as a fraud. This is the case of the 
>>argument that becomes he who accuses accuses himself.
>>Marc
>>I might also add that your gut feeling, misleads 
>>you and you won't admit it!

                               * * * * *

I say Freud was a fraud because he falsified his research and case histories to fit his theories.  A South Korean vetenarian/geneticist recently did something similar in the "cloning" of human embryos and was exposed, discredited, and punished.

Here is Fred Crews in Follies of the Wise (2006) reviewing Allen Esterson's Seductive Mirage:  An Exploration of the Works of Sigmund Freud (1993):  "And even when he [Freud] felt secure enough to admit his seduction mistake and turn it to rhetorical advantage, he continued to adulterate the facts.  In 1896 the alleged seducers of infants were said to have been governesses, teachers, servants, strangers, and siblings, but in later descriptions Freud retroactively changed most of them to fathers so that a properly oedipal spin could be placed on the recycled material.  At every stage, earlier acts of fakery and equivocation were compounded by fresh ones.  And this pattern, as Esterson shows in devastating detail, holds for the entirety of Freud's pychoanalytic career" (p. 34).

That is fraud.

Bruce

From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Wed Jul  4 08:34:11 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 16:34:11 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Corfu memoirs
In-Reply-To: <9032479.1183557262842.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <03134A02-2A44-11DC-B945-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

No big theory.  But Gerry is writing about his family and other  
animals, and it suits him that animals and family are all under one  
roof.  His older brother is too good material to leave out, and it is  
too annoying having him living elsewhere and coming only for visits;  
Gerry wants him under the same roof where he can drop spiders on his  
head at will.  I would also guess that it somewhat recreates earlier  
days when the family did indeed live under one roof in South London  
before Larry had flown the coop and got himself a girl.  A further but  
possibly not very important point is that by the time My Family was  
written Nancy herself was long gone from being one of the fauna and  
Gerry did not want to bring up delicate memories.  But principally the  
guy had a story to write, and the idea was to put a madhouse under one  
roof, no distractions allowed.

Nancy in Prospero' Cell is N, just as Eve in Marine Venus is E -- a  
mysterious letter of the alphabet.  Nancy is a presence; Durrell is not  
writing about her or his relationship with her, he is writing about a  
lightness of youthful being with presences in attendance, and N does  
that nicely.  Like Gerry he has his story to write, and it would get in  
the way if he mentioned how often they left the White House at Kalami  
for calmer weather to the south and mother's home cooking.  No this is  
the writer on his bare rock, and no time for sentiment, much less  
cluttering elements like family.

Gerry is a boy growing up among beetles.  Larry is an artist growing up  
on a bare rock.  That is the party line.  Both stories are far more  
complicated and sadder than that.

:Michael







On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 02:54  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:

> Michael:
>
> "I do wonder, though, why Gerald chose to describe in detail scenes  
> involving his family, including his brother Lawrence, but did not  
> mention Nancy even in passing."
>
> My recollections of LD's and his brother's accounts of Corfu are too  
> sketchy to know if this author got the facts right.  I guess you have  
> a theory why Nancy is left out.  She's not much of a presence in  
> Prospero's Cell either, as I dimly recall.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>> Sent: Jul 3, 2007 4:46 PM
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: [ilds] Corfu memoirs
>>
>>
>>
>> http://isralit.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/the-transforming-lens-of- 
>> memory/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Wed Jul  4 09:14:51 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 12:14:51 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Corfu memoirs & N.
In-Reply-To: <03134A02-2A44-11DC-B945-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <03134A02-2A44-11DC-B945-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <468BC77B.4030300@wfu.edu>



        On 7/4/2007 11:34 AM, Michael Haag wrote:

>No big theory.  
>
>A further but  
>possibly not very important point is that by the time My Family was  
>written Nancy herself was long gone from being one of the fauna and  
>Gerry did not want to bring up delicate memories.  But principally the  
>guy had a story to write, and the idea was to put a madhouse under one  
>roof, no distractions allowed.
>
>Nancy in Prospero' Cell is N, just as Eve in Marine Venus is E -- a  
>mysterious letter of the alphabet.  Nancy is a presence; Durrell is not  
>writing about her or his relationship with her, he is writing about a  
>lightness of youthful being with presences in attendance, and N does  
>that nicely.  Like Gerry he has his story to write, and it would get in  
>the way if he mentioned how often they left the White House at Kalami  
>for calmer weather to the south and mother's home cooking.  No this is  
>the writer on his bare rock, and no time for sentiment, much less  
>cluttering elements like family.
>

A note that went missing copied and pasted here below. 

I will follow Michael's account of N. as "presence" with my account of 
N. as someone or something "numinous"--that is, a thing of mystery, 
brimful of divine presence, as the Victorian Graal poets or perhaps 
Santayana would have seen her. 

My last question about "N. contrasted with Justine" still interests me.  
Note how Justine is incredibly present as a name in the /Quartet/.   She 
goes from enigma to petty reality (as a peasant in a commune; then again 
as a Machiavellian player at the close of /Clea/) and then to a new 
enigma, as if she is able to arrive anew, reborn in her mystery.

>         On 7/4/2007 11:19 AM, slighcl wrote: 

>         Happy 4 July, Bruce. 
>
>         I wonder if our different readings of Durrell's "N." mark out
>         different ways of reading that wonderful book?  After all, how
>         do we define its mix of history, landscape, "men & manners,"
>         the personal, and the poetic?
>
>         I am guessing that I am reading /Prospero's Cell/ as a series
>         of poetic impressions of place and moment.  In that way, those
>         numerous but brief "heraldic" glimpses of "N." hold power and
>         presence via their striking sound of phrase and image. 
>         (Admittedly I am thinking of /Prospero's Cell /cut by
>         half--only the autobiographical parts, leaving out the
>         histories, which I enjoy too when thinking about the total
>         book.)   As in poetry, a keen, grave economy can magnify what
>         it withholds.
>
>         Your analogy to Kafka and abbreviated character names seems to
>         weigh N. in a different scale, perhaps as a "character," a
>         term from fiction and also a term Durrell sometime uses for
>         "real" figures in his island books.  (Cf. the "Preface" to
>         /Bitter Lemons/.)  Weighed in that balance, N. is of course
>         diminished. 
>
>         But here is my finesse:  the diminishment of N. is protective
>         in strategy.  Protective of the egoist writer: I don't think
>         anyone can miss that Durrell is publishing after his marriage
>         to Nancy has collapsed.   But also protective of the numinous
>         power of N.'s place in the memory.  The old notion of the
>         sacred and the profane.  Speaking too often about something
>         special expends its special power.
>
>         Some on the listserv will recall Margo's response to a
>         question about Nancy: "I loved Nancy.  We all loved Nancy so
>         much. . . ."  That ellipses was Margo Durrell's own as she
>         nearly said more but did not say it or could not share it. 
>
>         As for Gerry, is his treatment of his brother's long-past
>         marriage also protective?  Or is it good story-telling sense? 
>         After all, "Larry" in /My Family/ is a certain sort of
>         "character."  As in /Peter Pan,/ the intrusion of too much
>         adult reality (marriages and their foundering) would upset the
>         special terms of a childhood romance recollecting Neverland.
>
>         Perhaps we could compare the naming of Justine to the naming
>         of N.?
>
>         Charles


-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Wed Jul  4 09:34:50 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 17:34:50 +0100
Subject: [ilds] numinous woman
In-Reply-To: <468BC77B.4030300@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <7C4B3738-2A4C-11DC-B945-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Always look for that numinous woman in Durrell's work.  When you have 
found her, you have found Durrell most alive and his writing at its 
best.

:Michael


On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 05:14  pm, slighcl wrote:
>
>
> I will follow Michael's account of N. as "presence" with my account of 
> N. as someone or something "numinous"--that is, a thing of mystery, 
> brimful of divine presence, as the Victorian Graal poets or perhaps 
> Santayana would have seen her.?
>
> My last question about "N. contrasted with Justine" still interests 
> me.? Note how Justine is incredibly present as a name in the 
> Quartet.?? She goes from enigma to petty reality (as a peasant in a 
> commune; then again as a Machiavellian player at the close of Clea) 
> and then to a new enigma, as if she is able to arrive anew, reborn in 
> her mystery.
>
>
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul  4 09:48:09 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 09:48:09 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] numinous woman
Message-ID: <29074458.1183567690075.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I like "numinous woman."  But what about Martine in Sicilian Carousel?  And Chantal de Legume in Smile in the Mind's Eye?  And Cunegonde in Caesar's Vast Ghost?  I see a pattern here, perhaps a disturbing one.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 4, 2007 9:34 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] numinous woman
>
>Always look for that numinous woman in Durrell's work.  When you have 
>found her, you have found Durrell most alive and his writing at its 
>best.
>
>:Michael
>
>
>On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 05:14  pm, slighcl wrote:
>>
>>
>> I will follow Michael's account of N. as "presence" with my account of 
>> N. as someone or something "numinous"--that is, a thing of mystery, 
>> brimful of divine presence, as the Victorian Graal poets or perhaps 
>> Santayana would have seen her. 
>>
>> My last question about "N. contrasted with Justine" still interests 
>> me.  Note how Justine is incredibly present as a name in the 
>> Quartet.   She goes from enigma to petty reality (as a peasant in a 
>> commune; then again as a Machiavellian player at the close of Clea) 
>> and then to a new enigma, as if she is able to arrive anew, reborn in 
>> her mystery.
>>
>>


From gifford at uvic.ca  Wed Jul  4 09:54:55 2007
From: gifford at uvic.ca (James Gifford)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:54:55 -0600
Subject: [ilds] Corfu memoirs &
In-Reply-To: <20084574.1183559160710.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <20084574.1183559160710.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <2bfc74100707040954l1e82ff4ct6487c71c0f8bed66@mail.gmail.com>

I've always been troubled by how Nancy was 'silenced' in _Prospero's
Cell_, and I can see a gender bias potentially running through
Durrell's works (think of Hilda in -The Black Book_, contemporary to
the Corfu years, but then what about Constance?).  Yet, I'm also
partly aware of Durrell preference for keeping his home life private.
Written years later and after a divorce, he chose to subltly minimize
her presence and Gerald chose not to refer to her at all.  It may
simply be tactful.  Better leave the rest unsaid...

Moreover, this isn't a single instance for Durrell.  Where is Eve in
_Bitter Lemons_, Claude and Sappho in "Oil for the Saint," or the less
prominant presence in  _Reflections on a Marine Venus_?  Rather than
censoring or weakening female voices, I suspect Durrell may have
simply preferred not to intrude on their private lives or not make
them public -- nonetheless, it is intriguing that while he included
several male friends by name, he lists virtually no females (wives,
lovers, or friends) in his travel books as participating in the
significant discussions.  Leaving his private life aside, that seems
like a discontinuity between the fiction and the pseudo-non-fiction.
In the fiction the role of women is confused but hardly 'weak' -- I'm
never sure where to place those text along a spectrum from feminist to
misogynist, but I don't think it slots into just one place very
comfortably, skipping back & forth from one end to the other at
different moments, even within the same text.  But, isn't that true of
so many authors?

Best,
James

On 04/07/07, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Yes, she's there in the backgound, but not prominent, as eerie as Kafka's habit of identifying a character by a single letter (K. im SchloB).
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> >Sent: Jul 4, 2007 7:10 AM
> >To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >Subject: Re: [ilds] Corfu memoirs & "N."
> >
> >On 7/4/2007 9:54 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
> >
> >>She's not much of a presence in Prospero's Cell either, as I dimly recall.
> >>
> >Nancy of course appears under the sign of "N." in /Prospero's Cell/, and
> >at least for this reader that enigmatic initial has always made her more
> >magnetic and, strangely, more present.
> >
> >I will recall here that (at least in the account given in /Prospero's
> >Cell/) it is "N." who decides to build "a garden on the rock outside the
> >house"--"the design is N.'s."  And it is "N." who purchases and
> >christens the cutter, the "Van Norden."
> >
> >And this image permanently tattoos "N." upon my memory in its power:
> >
> >        The windows give directly on to the sea[. . . .] By day it runs
> >        golden on the ceilings, reflecting back the bright peasant
> >        rugs--a ship, a gorgon, a loom, a cypress tree; reflecting back
> >        the warm crude pottery of our table; reflecting back N. now
> >        brown-skinned and blonde, reading in a chair with her legs
> >        tucked under her.  Calm eyes, calm hair, and clear white teeth
> >        like those of a young carnivore.  As Father Nicholas says: "What
> >        more does a man want than an olive-tree, a native island, and
> >        [a] woman from his own place?"
> >
> >Charles
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


-- 
__________________
James Gifford
Department of English
University of Victoria
web.uvic.ca/~gifford

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul  4 10:21:10 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:21:10 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Corfu memoirs &
Message-ID: <12823563.1183569671197.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Beauty, darkness, vehemence -- do those three words from the poem "Bitter Lemons" have a female reference?  So Jamie suggests, and I find that intriguing, never having understood how those words worked in the poem.  Yes, I have another gut feeling that there's something to Jamie's observations about the role of women in Durrell's works.  I don't think, however, it's useful to place his women along a continuum of feminists to misogynists.  Women haunt Durrell and take many forms.  No women in Bitter Lemons, to speak of.  It's like being in a military camp.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: James Gifford <gifford at uvic.ca>
>Sent: Jul 4, 2007 9:54 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Corfu memoirs &
>
>I've always been troubled by how Nancy was 'silenced' in _Prospero's
>Cell_, and I can see a gender bias potentially running through
>Durrell's works (think of Hilda in -The Black Book_, contemporary to
>the Corfu years, but then what about Constance?).  Yet, I'm also
>partly aware of Durrell preference for keeping his home life private.
>Written years later and after a divorce, he chose to subltly minimize
>her presence and Gerald chose not to refer to her at all.  It may
>simply be tactful.  Better leave the rest unsaid...
>
>Moreover, this isn't a single instance for Durrell.  Where is Eve in
>_Bitter Lemons_, Claude and Sappho in "Oil for the Saint," or the less
>prominant presence in  _Reflections on a Marine Venus_?  Rather than
>censoring or weakening female voices, I suspect Durrell may have
>simply preferred not to intrude on their private lives or not make
>them public -- nonetheless, it is intriguing that while he included
>several male friends by name, he lists virtually no females (wives,
>lovers, or friends) in his travel books as participating in the
>significant discussions.  Leaving his private life aside, that seems
>like a discontinuity between the fiction and the pseudo-non-fiction.
>In the fiction the role of women is confused but hardly 'weak' -- I'm
>never sure where to place those text along a spectrum from feminist to
>misogynist, but I don't think it slots into just one place very
>comfortably, skipping back & forth from one end to the other at
>different moments, even within the same text.  But, isn't that true of
>so many authors?
>
>Best,
>James


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Wed Jul  4 10:32:28 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 18:32:28 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Women in Durrell's writing
In-Reply-To: <2bfc74100707040954l1e82ff4ct6487c71c0f8bed66@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <893A8A40-2A54-11DC-B945-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Durrell was still married to Nancy when he wrote Prospero's Cell and 
even then had not given up hope that she would come back to him; indeed 
they were still married when the book was published in 1945; they were 
not divorced until 1947.

Eve could serve no possible purpose in Bitter Lemons; Claude could have 
played a role, but that would have required a distracting explanation, 
and she was not brought in.  I know that James makes much of Oil for 
the Saint, which I do not, but in any case when writing a travel 
article for Holiday magazine I do not think one wants to bring in one's 
third wife and the daughter of one's second wife when revisiting the 
love nest one shared with one's first wife.  And so 'the whole 
catastrophe', as Zorba called it, was left out.

I am not sure what more Durrell could have said about Eve in 
Reflections on a Marine Venus; he already reveals more than is 
necessary; yet more would be distracting or demand a memoir.

I do think that discretion is a very strong motive with Durrell, 
discretion and privacy about personal life, to a remarkable degree, and 
to a degree which has allowed unfortunate rumour to surround him which 
otherwise could have been dispelled.  Durrell is always aiming at the 
timeless, an important reason for the distancing.

Durrell did have very different relations with men and with women; they 
were very different types.  The men were more men's men and simpler, 
less compromising and revealing, to write about.

The women of Durrell's fiction are, the more successful of them, those 
numinous presences, those animas, which truly stirred him.  Maybe they 
were not women at all, but something inside himself.

:Michael



On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 05:54  pm, James Gifford wrote:

> I've always been troubled by how Nancy was 'silenced' in _Prospero's
> Cell_, and I can see a gender bias potentially running through
> Durrell's works (think of Hilda in -The Black Book_, contemporary to
> the Corfu years, but then what about Constance?).  Yet, I'm also
> partly aware of Durrell preference for keeping his home life private.
> Written years later and after a divorce, he chose to subltly minimize
> her presence and Gerald chose not to refer to her at all.  It may
> simply be tactful.  Better leave the rest unsaid...
>
> Moreover, this isn't a single instance for Durrell.  Where is Eve in
> _Bitter Lemons_, Claude and Sappho in "Oil for the Saint," or the less
> prominant presence in  _Reflections on a Marine Venus_?  Rather than
> censoring or weakening female voices, I suspect Durrell may have
> simply preferred not to intrude on their private lives or not make
> them public -- nonetheless, it is intriguing that while he included
> several male friends by name, he lists virtually no females (wives,
> lovers, or friends) in his travel books as participating in the
> significant discussions.  Leaving his private life aside, that seems
> like a discontinuity between the fiction and the pseudo-non-fiction.
> In the fiction the role of women is confused but hardly 'weak' -- I'm
> never sure where to place those text along a spectrum from feminist to
> misogynist, but I don't think it slots into just one place very
> comfortably, skipping back & forth from one end to the other at
> different moments, even within the same text.  But, isn't that true of
> so many authors?
>
> Best,
> James
>
>
>


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Wed Jul  4 10:36:15 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 18:36:15 +0100
Subject: [ilds] numinous woman
In-Reply-To: <29074458.1183567690075.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <107C0275-2A55-11DC-B945-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

The movement is towards inflatability.

:Michael


On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 05:48  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:

> I like "numinous woman."  But what about Martine in Sicilian Carousel? 
>  And Chantal de Legume in Smile in the Mind's Eye?  And Cunegonde in 
> Caesar's Vast Ghost?  I see a pattern here, perhaps a disturbing one.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>> Sent: Jul 4, 2007 9:34 AM
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: [ilds] numinous woman
>>
>> Always look for that numinous woman in Durrell's work.  When you have
>> found her, you have found Durrell most alive and his writing at its
>> best.
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 05:14  pm, slighcl wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I will follow Michael's account of N. as "presence" with my account 
>>> of
>>> N. as someone or something "numinous"--that is, a thing of mystery,
>>> brimful of divine presence, as the Victorian Graal poets or perhaps
>>> Santayana would have seen her.
>>>
>>> My last question about "N. contrasted with Justine" still interests
>>> me.  Note how Justine is incredibly present as a name in the
>>> Quartet.   She goes from enigma to petty reality (as a peasant in a
>>> commune; then again as a Machiavellian player at the close of Clea)
>>> and then to a new enigma, as if she is able to arrive anew, reborn in
>>> her mystery.
>>>
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul  4 10:38:39 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:38:39 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] numinous woman
Message-ID: <24358858.1183570720096.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I first read "inflatability" as some form of "flatulence."  I often do that, but if there is a noun form of flatulence, it also works in this context.  I also think Durrell would have liked that.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 4, 2007 10:36 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] numinous woman
>
>The movement is towards inflatability.
>
>:Michael
>
>
>On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 05:48  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>> I like "numinous woman."  But what about Martine in Sicilian Carousel? 
>>  And Chantal de Legume in Smile in the Mind's Eye?  And Cunegonde in 
>> Caesar's Vast Ghost?  I see a pattern here, perhaps a disturbing one.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>> Sent: Jul 4, 2007 9:34 AM
>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> Subject: [ilds] numinous woman
>>>
>>> Always look for that numinous woman in Durrell's work.  When you have
>>> found her, you have found Durrell most alive and his writing at its
>>> best.
>>>
>>> :Michael
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 05:14  pm, slighcl wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I will follow Michael's account of N. as "presence" with my account 
>>>> of
>>>> N. as someone or something "numinous"--that is, a thing of mystery,
>>>> brimful of divine presence, as the Victorian Graal poets or perhaps
>>>> Santayana would have seen her.
>>>>
>>>> My last question about "N. contrasted with Justine" still interests
>>>> me.  Note how Justine is incredibly present as a name in the
>>>> Quartet.   She goes from enigma to petty reality (as a peasant in a
>>>> commune; then again as a Machiavellian player at the close of Clea)
>>>> and then to a new enigma, as if she is able to arrive anew, reborn in
>>>> her mystery.
>>>


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Wed Jul  4 10:48:32 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 18:48:32 +0100
Subject: [ilds] numinous woman
In-Reply-To: <24358858.1183570720096.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <C7F6E59C-2A56-11DC-B945-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Well, his nomme de peintre was Epfs which he said was the sound of a 
fart.

:Michael

On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 06:38  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:

> I first read "inflatability" as some form of "flatulence."  I often do 
> that, but if there is a noun form of flatulence, it also works in this 
> context.  I also think Durrell would have liked that.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>> Sent: Jul 4, 2007 10:36 AM
>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] numinous woman
>>
>> The movement is towards inflatability.
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 05:48  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>
>>> I like "numinous woman."  But what about Martine in Sicilian 
>>> Carousel?
>>>  And Chantal de Legume in Smile in the Mind's Eye?  And Cunegonde in
>>> Caesar's Vast Ghost?  I see a pattern here, perhaps a disturbing one.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>>> Sent: Jul 4, 2007 9:34 AM
>>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> Subject: [ilds] numinous woman
>>>>
>>>> Always look for that numinous woman in Durrell's work.  When you 
>>>> have
>>>> found her, you have found Durrell most alive and his writing at its
>>>> best.
>>>>
>>>> :Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 05:14  pm, slighcl wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I will follow Michael's account of N. as "presence" with my account
>>>>> of
>>>>> N. as someone or something "numinous"--that is, a thing of mystery,
>>>>> brimful of divine presence, as the Victorian Graal poets or perhaps
>>>>> Santayana would have seen her.
>>>>>
>>>>> My last question about "N. contrasted with Justine" still interests
>>>>> me.  Note how Justine is incredibly present as a name in the
>>>>> Quartet.   She goes from enigma to petty reality (as a peasant in a
>>>>> commune; then again as a Machiavellian player at the close of Clea)
>>>>> and then to a new enigma, as if she is able to arrive anew, reborn 
>>>>> in
>>>>> her mystery.
>>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Wed Jul  4 12:37:10 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 15:37:10 -0400
Subject: [ilds] numinous woman
In-Reply-To: <107C0275-2A55-11DC-B945-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <107C0275-2A55-11DC-B945-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <468BF6E6.5090608@wfu.edu>

On 7/4/2007 1:36 PM, Michael Haag wrote:

>The movement is towards inflatability.
>
            "When he was very old he had a model of the perfect woman
            built for him in rubber--life-size.  She could be filled
            with hot water in the winter.  She was strikingly
            beautiful.  He called her Sabina after his mother, and took
            her everywhere." (/Justine /1.17)

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

-------------- next part --------------
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul  4 13:39:49 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 13:39:49 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] numinous woman
Message-ID: <17939991.1183581589243.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Well, that's Cunegonde all right.  And that's probably the fate of us all, which has its attractions.  By the way, anyone know the etymology of French Cunegonde?  I'm thinking of puppets, the theater of Punch and Judy.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Jul 4, 2007 12:37 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] numinous woman
>
>On 7/4/2007 1:36 PM, Michael Haag wrote:
>
>>The movement is towards inflatability.
>>
>            "When he was very old he had a model of the perfect woman
>            built for him in rubber--life-size.  She could be filled
>            with hot water in the winter.  She was strikingly
>            beautiful.  He called her Sabina after his mother, and took
>            her everywhere." (/Justine /1.17)
>
>-- 
>**********************
>Charles L. Sligh
>Department of English
>Wake Forest University
>slighcl at wfu.edu
>**********************
>


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul  4 14:03:44 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 14:03:44 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Corfu memoirs & N.
Message-ID: <30907232.1183583024602.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Charles says,

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Jul 4, 2007 8:19 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Corfu memoirs & N.

>
>But here is my finesse:  the diminishment of N. is protective in 
>strategy.  Protective of the egoist writer: I don't think anyone can 
>miss that Durrell is publishing after his marriage to Nancy has 
>collapsed.   But also protective of the numinous power of N.'s place in 
>the memory.  The old notion of the sacred and the profane.  Speaking too 
>often about something special expends its special power.
>
>Perhaps we could compare the naming of Justine to the naming of N.?
>
                             * * * * *

Back from the 4th of July Parade.  Happy 4th to you too, Charles.  Yes to above.  I also agree with Michael about Durrell's attempt to elevate his story into some timeless realm, where names are inconsequential (Inconsequential Data).  A fairytale.  The tale of Cunegonde is a kind of fairytale.  I don't think Durrell likes Time.  And I'm not sure he likes memory.  Hence, all the nonsense about soup-mixes, Bergsonian Duration, and Proustian/Joycean Time.  In some ways, he reminds me of Roald Dahl and his story, "They Shall Not Grow Old," another wartime piece set in the Levant.

Bruce



From vcel at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jul  4 13:41:53 2007
From: vcel at ix.netcom.com (Vittorio Celentano)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 16:41:53 -0400
Subject: [ilds] numinous woman
References: <C7F6E59C-2A56-11DC-B945-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <024c01c7be7b$c18fa560$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>

As to Epfs, I sent Anna Lillios last summer - 8/21/2006 - this message:

"I found this in TIME Archive:

Oscar Epfs was the euphonious name of the painter whose one-man show
just closed at the Librairie Marthe Voshy in Paris. Only eight of the 40
pictures were sold, but that was pure velvet to Artist Epfs. He is
actually Lawrence Durrell, author of the Alexandria Quartet, and it
seems that he has been painting since 1930 ("but never every day, only
by attacks") in a style that ranges from Impressionist through
surrealist to abstract. What made him decide to have the show? "You can
give just so many away. Friends really don't want any more." How about
that nom de pin-ceau? "I saw Epfs in a Danish magazine, and I noticed
that it couldn't be pronounced without making a grimace. And since
people grimace before my painting . . ."

Vittorio 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Haag" <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
To: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>; <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] numinous woman


> Well, his nomme de peintre was Epfs which he said was the sound of a 
> fart.
> 
> :Michael
> 
> On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 06:38  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
> 
> > I first read "inflatability" as some form of "flatulence."  I often do 
> > that, but if there is a noun form of flatulence, it also works in this 
> > context.  I also think Durrell would have liked that.
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> >> Sent: Jul 4, 2007 10:36 AM
> >> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >> Subject: Re: [ilds] numinous woman
> >>
> >> The movement is towards inflatability.
> >>
> >> :Michael
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 05:48  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
> >>
> >>> I like "numinous woman."  But what about Martine in Sicilian 
> >>> Carousel?
> >>>  And Chantal de Legume in Smile in the Mind's Eye?  And Cunegonde in
> >>> Caesar's Vast Ghost?  I see a pattern here, perhaps a disturbing one.
> >>>
> >>> Bruce
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> >>>> Sent: Jul 4, 2007 9:34 AM
> >>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >>>> Subject: [ilds] numinous woman
> >>>>
> >>>> Always look for that numinous woman in Durrell's work.  When you 
> >>>> have
> >>>> found her, you have found Durrell most alive and his writing at its
> >>>> best.
> >>>>
> >>>> :Michael
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 05:14  pm, slighcl wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I will follow Michael's account of N. as "presence" with my account
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> N. as someone or something "numinous"--that is, a thing of mystery,
> >>>>> brimful of divine presence, as the Victorian Graal poets or perhaps
> >>>>> Santayana would have seen her.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My last question about "N. contrasted with Justine" still interests
> >>>>> me.  Note how Justine is incredibly present as a name in the
> >>>>> Quartet.   She goes from enigma to petty reality (as a peasant in a
> >>>>> commune; then again as a Machiavellian player at the close of Clea)
> >>>>> and then to a new enigma, as if she is able to arrive anew, reborn 
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> her mystery.
> >>>>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ILDS mailing list
> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 

From durrells at otenet.gr  Wed Jul  4 13:51:52 2007
From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 23:51:52 +0300
Subject: [ilds] Corfu memoirs
References: <03134A02-2A44-11DC-B945-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <015a01c7be7d$2666cfd0$0100000a@DSC01>

But did life under one roof for several weeks when the family first moved to 
Corfu and then for several months before Larry and Nancy moved to the White 
House surely.  I am sure that a week felt like a month in that chaotic 
household. Alex
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Haag" <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
To: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>; <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] Corfu memoirs


> No big theory.  But Gerry is writing about his family and other
> animals, and it suits him that animals and family are all under one
> roof.  His older brother is too good material to leave out, and it is
> too annoying having him living elsewhere and coming only for visits;
> Gerry wants him under the same roof where he can drop spiders on his
> head at will.  I would also guess that it somewhat recreates earlier
> days when the family did indeed live under one roof in South London
> before Larry had flown the coop and got himself a girl.  A further but
> possibly not very important point is that by the time My Family was
> written Nancy herself was long gone from being one of the fauna and
> Gerry did not want to bring up delicate memories.  But principally the
> guy had a story to write, and the idea was to put a madhouse under one
> roof, no distractions allowed.
>
> Nancy in Prospero' Cell is N, just as Eve in Marine Venus is E -- a
> mysterious letter of the alphabet.  Nancy is a presence; Durrell is not
> writing about her or his relationship with her, he is writing about a
> lightness of youthful being with presences in attendance, and N does
> that nicely.  Like Gerry he has his story to write, and it would get in
> the way if he mentioned how often they left the White House at Kalami
> for calmer weather to the south and mother's home cooking.  No this is
> the writer on his bare rock, and no time for sentiment, much less
> cluttering elements like family.
>
> Gerry is a boy growing up among beetles.  Larry is an artist growing up
> on a bare rock.  That is the party line.  Both stories are far more
> complicated and sadder than that.
>
> :Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 02:54  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>> Michael:
>>
>> "I do wonder, though, why Gerald chose to describe in detail scenes
>> involving his family, including his brother Lawrence, but did not
>> mention Nancy even in passing."
>>
>> My recollections of LD's and his brother's accounts of Corfu are too
>> sketchy to know if this author got the facts right.  I guess you have
>> a theory why Nancy is left out.  She's not much of a presence in
>> Prospero's Cell either, as I dimly recall.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>> Sent: Jul 3, 2007 4:46 PM
>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> Subject: [ilds] Corfu memoirs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://isralit.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/the-transforming-lens-of-
>>> memory/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2378 (20070704) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
> 


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul  4 14:28:06 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 14:28:06 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Women in Durrell's writing
Message-ID: <8800524.1183584487001.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

What an excellent preface to Bitter Lemons (truly).  Two comments.  One, paragraph two would also make an excellent plot outline for a story (I shall plagiarize it sometime).  I love Zorbian catastrophes.  And two, Durrell does seem more comfortable with males.  Women get the plots going and stir up things and provide the mystery, but males are the ones you can sit down with, share a bottle of wine, and have a good chat.  E.g., Deeds, the vet of Monty's 8th Army in Sicilian Carousel.  Same goes for the males in Bitter Lemons.  Nothing novel here (Australians know about this), and Durrell seems to be tapping into a universal spring.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 4, 2007 10:32 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] Women in Durrell's writing
>
>Durrell was still married to Nancy when he wrote Prospero's Cell and 
>even then had not given up hope that she would come back to him; indeed 
>they were still married when the book was published in 1945; they were 
>not divorced until 1947.
>
>Eve could serve no possible purpose in Bitter Lemons; Claude could have 
>played a role, but that would have required a distracting explanation, 
>and she was not brought in.  I know that James makes much of Oil for 
>the Saint, which I do not, but in any case when writing a travel 
>article for Holiday magazine I do not think one wants to bring in one's 
>third wife and the daughter of one's second wife when revisiting the 
>love nest one shared with one's first wife.  And so 'the whole 
>catastrophe', as Zorba called it, was left out.
>
>I am not sure what more Durrell could have said about Eve in 
>Reflections on a Marine Venus; he already reveals more than is 
>necessary; yet more would be distracting or demand a memoir.
>
>I do think that discretion is a very strong motive with Durrell, 
>discretion and privacy about personal life, to a remarkable degree, and 
>to a degree which has allowed unfortunate rumour to surround him which 
>otherwise could have been dispelled.  Durrell is always aiming at the 
>timeless, an important reason for the distancing.
>
>Durrell did have very different relations with men and with women; they 
>were very different types.  The men were more men's men and simpler, 
>less compromising and revealing, to write about.
>
>The women of Durrell's fiction are, the more successful of them, those 
>numinous presences, those animas, which truly stirred him.  Maybe they 
>were not women at all, but something inside himself.
>
>:Michael



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Wed Jul  4 17:41:29 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 20:41:29 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Reno Wideson -- a footnote
In-Reply-To: <8800524.1183584487001.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa
	.earthlink.net>
References: <8800524.1183584487001.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070705004133.WZAW7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From lillios at mail.ucf.edu  Wed Jul  4 17:46:38 2007
From: lillios at mail.ucf.edu (Anna Lillios)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 20:46:38 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Women
In-Reply-To: <20070703035235.NVDU7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <28552092.1183315374823.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net><28552092.1183315374823.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.
	earthlink.net>
	<20070703035235.NVDU7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <468C072E0200004D0001F3FB@mail.ucf.edu>

I have a few random remarks.

1.  I think that Nancy and Eve asked not to be memorialized as characters in LD's fictional and non-fictional works.
Both strike me as having been discrete, private people who wished to be known to the world on their own merits.

2.  After meeting Eve Cohen on Rhodes in 2004, I was impressed by the fact that she was an attractive woman in a timeless sense but also nothing at all like my image of Justine in JUSTINE.  I picture Justine as a tall, dark, confident woman at the center of things.  Eve was shy, quiet, and kind.

3.  I was also fortunate to spend time with Larry when he visited the US in 1986.  We had several lengthy conversations and I can say that I had no problem talking to him and didn't feel gender made any difference.  He had many close female friends, including Anais Nin.  A conversation with him wasn't all about him either.  During the course of my talks with him, he pried out intimate information about me.  Later in his lecture, he addressed some of the issues we had been discussing; thus, I felt he had been truly listening to me and affected by what I had said.

4.  Why are so many men interested in Durrell studies, i.e. most of the respondents in the discussion group are male?  Is it because they are fascinated by Durrell's fantasy women and the world he creates around them?

                                                                                        --Anna Lillios

Dr. Anna Lillios
Associate Professor of English
Department of English
University of Central Florida
P.O. Box 161346
Orlando, Florida 32816-1346

Phone: (407) 823-5161
FAX: (407) 823-6582



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Wed Jul  4 18:26:47 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 21:26:47 -0400
Subject: [ilds] the lack of women actively on the list
In-Reply-To: <468C072E0200004D0001F3FB@mail.ucf.edu>
References: <28552092.1183315374823.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<28552092.1183315374823.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.
	earthlink.net>
	<20070703035235.NVDU7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<468C072E0200004D0001F3FB@mail.ucf.edu>
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Wed Jul  4 18:55:19 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 02:55:19 +0100
Subject: [ilds] the lack of women actively on the list
In-Reply-To: <20070705012652.YVLZ15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <C86E1274-2A9A-11DC-A539-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Why is this a serious problem?

:Michael


On Thursday, July 5, 2007, at 02:26  am, william godshalk wrote:

> Why are so many men interested in Durrell studies, i.e. most of the 
> respondents in the discussion group are male?? Is it because they are 
> fascinated by Durrell's fantasy women and the world he creates around 
> them?
>
>
>
> asks Anna Lillios.
>
> Yes, this is a serious problem. Why is this list basically a men's 
> club?
>
>
> Bill
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Wed Jul  4 19:09:14 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 22:09:14 -0400
Subject: [ilds] diversity in the marketplace of ideas
In-Reply-To: <C86E1274-2A9A-11DC-A539-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <20070705012652.YVLZ15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<C86E1274-2A9A-11DC-A539-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 19:10:50 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 20:10:50 -0600
Subject: [ilds] the lack of women actively on the list
In-Reply-To: <20070705012652.YVLZ15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <28552092.1183315374823.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<28552092.1183315374823.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.	earthlink.net>	<20070703035235.NVDU7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>	<468C072E0200004D0001F3FB@mail.ucf.edu>
	<20070705012652.YVLZ15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <468C532A.4060706@gmail.com>

Bill follows up from Anna, asking:

 > this is a serious problem. Why is this
 > list basically a men's club?

This is a genuine oddity since so much of the serious Durrell criticism 
has come from women, yet the books are almost exclusively by male 
authors or editors (with notable exceptions).  For the first MLA special 
session in which the ILDS was created, I think there was gender parity, 
and that was back in 1980.

There are few scholars I respect more than Beatrice and Isabelle, whose 
intellectual vitality and experimentation I admire.  But for different 
reasons, they've both had to limit their involvement on the listserv lately.

Also, I think that because so many people here have known each other for 
so very long, it's easy to say things quite bluntly (or perhaps with 
ill-suited phrasing) without as much worry for tone as one might have in 
public or face to face discussion.  That might hinder other voices from 
coming forward, especially if they are young and subscribe to approaches 
or viewpoints with which more vocal list members are prone to disagree.

There's always a discussion going on behind any listserv, and for this 
one, I know there are several intellectually exciting female members who 
happen to avoid posting their responses to the whole group.  That's what 
makes me concerned about the gender imbalance.

As an intellectual side-note: in addition to the privacy allocated 
female voices in Durrell's (pseudo) non-fiction, is it odd to find the 
struggle Durrell seems to have with gender and sexuality throughout his 
fictional works?  What I mean is, we don't always get the 
stereotypically masculine straight men, effeminate gay men, feminine 
women, and masculine lesbians.  My hunch is that Durrell was struggling 
toward more 21st century notions of gender and sexuality, but he was 
trying to do so within an Edwardian apparatus for discussing sex/gender 
and sexual 'identity.'  Gender roles become quite confused.

Best,
James

william godshalk wrote:
>> *Why are so many men interested in Durrell studies, i.e. most of the 
>> respondents in the discussion group are male?  Is it because they are 
>> fascinated by Durrell's fantasy women and the world he creates around 
>> them?*
> 
> 
> asks Anna Lillios.
> 
>> Yes, this is a serious problem. Why is this list basically a men's club? 
> 
> Bill
> 
> ***************************************
> W. L. Godshalk           *
> Department of English         *
> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> 513-281-5927
> ***************************************
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 19:13:36 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 20:13:36 -0600
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Dutton omnibus
In-Reply-To: <6350B03A-299B-11DC-88E6-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <6350B03A-299B-11DC-88E6-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <468C53D0.6040103@gmail.com>

An intriguing development...  I've not seen the Dutton single volume, 
but the current Penguins appear to be the same as the Dutton individual 
volumes, foregoing any and all corrections to the Pocket Books 
editions.  Dutton was purchased by Penguin in 1986, I believe, and they 
reissued the Dutton individual volumes under the Penguin imprint in 1991.

I'd imagine the difference is fiscal in nature, but it is surprising 
that no editorial corrections happened to these editions -- there must 
be some correspondence somewhere, but digging it up through variously 
re-purchased publishing houses may prove challenging...

Best,
James

Michael Haag wrote:
> Are the paginations the same in the Faber and Dutton 1962 omnibi? 

From leadale at mts.net  Wed Jul  4 19:10:16 2007
From: leadale at mts.net (Lea Stogdale)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 21:10:16 -0500
Subject: [ilds] the lack of women actively on the list
Message-ID: <01C7BE7F.B905FD50.leadale@mts.net>

I suspect that the average age of the active participants in this list is 
somewhat over 50 years. I also suspect that the professors of English in 
this age group are predominantly male. Therefore, it follows that the 
active participants, being mainly academics, will be male.
Lea
That is: Ms Lea Stogdale

-----Original Message-----
From:	william godshalk [SMTP:godshawl at email.uc.edu]
Sent:	July 4, 2007 8:27 PM
To:	ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Subject:	[ilds] the lack of women actively on the list

 << File: ATT00014.htm >> << File: ATT00015.txt >>
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Wed Jul  4 19:22:08 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 03:22:08 +0100
Subject: [ilds] diversity in the marketplace of ideas
In-Reply-To: <20070705020938.YYMF15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <87BE0C95-2A9E-11DC-A56D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

If it is a problem, then it is for women to participate more.  But if 
they do not want to, tant pis.

:Michael


On Thursday, July 5, 2007, at 03:09  am, william godshalk wrote:

> Why is this a serious problem?
>
> Well, in any discussion it's good to have a diversity of voices. The 
> list is a marketplace of ideas -- or should be. If the list had only 
> one voice and only one position, it would be a pretty poor > marketplace.
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Wed Jul  4 19:31:53 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 22:31:53 -0400
Subject: [ilds] diversity in the marketplace of ideas
In-Reply-To: <87BE0C95-2A9E-11DC-A56D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <20070705020938.YYMF15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<87BE0C95-2A9E-11DC-A56D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Wed Jul  4 19:48:59 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 03:48:59 +0100
Subject: [ilds] diversity in the marketplace of ideas
In-Reply-To: <20070705023207.XHAN7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <47DE60E7-2AA2-11DC-8DA3-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Speaking of which, let's hear it from the hermaphrodites.

:Michael


On Thursday, July 5, 2007, at 03:31  am, william godshalk wrote:

> If it is a problem, then it is for women to participate more.? But if 
> they do not want to, tant pis.
>
>
> Absolutely Michael. I was not suggesting that we coerce women into 
> participating. And, of course, you always ask the question? that we 
> should consider carefully. I'm tempted to say that you are our 
> Socrates.
>
> Bill
>
> Michael had asked:
>
> Why is this a serious problem?
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Wed Jul  4 19:59:02 2007
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:59:02 +1000
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Women
References: <28552092.1183315374823.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net><28552092.1183315374823.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net><20070703035235.NVDU7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<468C072E0200004D0001F3FB@mail.ucf.edu>
Message-ID: <00c201c7beb0$7184d240$0202a8c0@MumandDad>

4.  Why are so many men interested in Durrell studies, i.e. most of the 
respondents in the discussion group are male?  Is it because they are 
fascinated by Durrell's fantasy women and the world he creates around 
em?   - Anna Illois


Dear Anna and list

1) most of the respondents to this list are 4 - 5 people who all seem to 
know each other quite well.

2) I am male and have much more interest in Durrell's Island books than his 
women, fantasy or otherwise. Unfortunately, interest in the island books - 
as books - appears minimal at this stage.

perhaps we should talk more about Justine's knickers.

3) In reference to the attempted discussions of Bitter Lemons - and Women, 
the following is interesting

"Women are merely a tiresome interruption: they are convinced that they are 
personalities whereas they are simply the collective illustration of a 
biological need or a universal principle. Best enjoyed when least thought 
about, say I." - Durrell to Miller 20 Nov. 1953

The time on Cyprus saw Durrell have to look after Sapho, deal with his 
mother louisa and take on the breakdown on his marriage to Eve. Perhaps a 
jaundiced view.

4) regarding what Australians know about (Bruce) well sure our fame has 
preceded us. it is true we love to pull a cork or six - or get through a 
many a beer solving the problems of the universe before being told to sleep 
it off in the dog-house, but the middle class Aussie male is a jack of all 
trades now; part chef (not cook you will notice), part nappy changer, lover 
of art and culture and reader of bedtime stories - sensative new age lover 
into the bargain. I'm afraid the old "heh love, are you awake?" days are 
well in the past.

David Whitewine
(Australian Chardonnay of course)


Denise Tart & David Green
16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204

+61 2 9564 6165
0412 707 625
dtart at bigpond.net.au 



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Wed Jul  4 20:44:21 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 23:44:21 -0400
Subject: [ilds] I laughed out loud
In-Reply-To: <00c201c7beb0$7184d240$0202a8c0@MumandDad>
References: <28552092.1183315374823.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<28552092.1183315374823.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<20070703035235.NVDU7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<468C072E0200004D0001F3FB@mail.ucf.edu>
	<00c201c7beb0$7184d240$0202a8c0@MumandDad>
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  5 07:41:26 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 07:41:26 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Women
Message-ID: <14315828.1183646486335.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

All these points are very interesting, especially no. 4, which I believe is answered with an emphatic yes.  I would also turn the question around and ask, "Why are there so few females active in the discussions?  Do they find Durrell's males uninteresting?"

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Anna Lillios <lillios at mail.ucf.edu>
>Sent: Jul 4, 2007 5:46 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's Women
>
>I have a few random remarks.
>
>1.  I think that Nancy and Eve asked not to be memorialized as characters in LD's fictional and non-fictional works.
>Both strike me as having been discrete, private people who wished to be known to the world on their own merits.
>
>2.  After meeting Eve Cohen on Rhodes in 2004, I was impressed by the fact that she was an attractive woman in a timeless sense but also nothing at all like my image of Justine in JUSTINE.  I picture Justine as a tall, dark, confident woman at the center of things.  Eve was shy, quiet, and kind.
>
>3.  I was also fortunate to spend time with Larry when he visited the US in 1986.  We had several lengthy conversations and I can say that I had no problem talking to him and didn't feel gender made any difference.  He had many close female friends, including Anais Nin.  A conversation with him wasn't all about him either.  During the course of my talks with him, he pried out intimate information about me.  Later in his lecture, he addressed some of the issues we had been discussing; thus, I felt he had been truly listening to me and affected by what I had said.
>
>4.  Why are so many men interested in Durrell studies, i.e. most of the respondents in the discussion group are male?  Is it because they are fascinated by Durrell's fantasy women and the world he creates around them?
>
>                                                                                        --Anna Lillios



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  5 07:59:02 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 07:59:02 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] the lack of women actively on the list
Message-ID: <29429765.1183647542744.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

True, but . . . note the following census.

Non-academics, i.e., English profs, active participants:  A. Durrell, M. Haag, D. Holdsworth, M. Piel, R. Pine, L. Stogdale, and me.  Six of seven male.  Something else seems to be going on.  (The Greens:  no census data.)

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Lea Stogdale <leadale at mts.net>
>Sent: Jul 4, 2007 7:10 PM
>To: "'ilds at lists.uvic.ca'" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Subject: Re: [ilds] the lack of women actively on the list
>
>I suspect that the average age of the active participants in this list is 
>somewhat over 50 years. I also suspect that the professors of English in 
>this age group are predominantly male. Therefore, it follows that the 
>active participants, being mainly academics, will be male.
>Lea
>That is: Ms Lea Stogdale
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	william godshalk [SMTP:godshawl at email.uc.edu]
>Sent:	July 4, 2007 8:27 PM
>To:	ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject:	[ilds] the lack of women actively on the list
>


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Thu Jul  5 08:29:30 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:29:30 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Eastern Landfall & Bitter Politics
In-Reply-To: <008301c7bddb$073fd5e0$0202a8c0@MumandDad>
References: <008301c7bddb$073fd5e0$0202a8c0@MumandDad>
Message-ID: <468D0E5A.8070704@wfu.edu>

On 7/3/2007 9:31 PM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote:

>         Regarding the comment that Bitter Lemons is not a political
>         book (Preface) I think that what Durrell means here is that it
>         is not a book of obvious political analysis from the
>         perspective a government official, but it is a political book.
>         The menace of enosis politics lurks behing many characters and
>         scenes and creates the tension and drama of the story. what
>         Durrell has done is to convert what could have been, in
>         another's hands, a dry analysis of what went wrong into a
>         'factional' novel in which the unfolding drama is told through
>         and highlighted by characters real, adapted or, possibly,
>         imaginary. In doing this Lawrence is very conscious of his
>         sullen art and craft (Thomas) as a capable and evocative
>         writer. My point is that Bitter Lemons is a political book,
>         but a highly ingenious one that is far from impressionistic -
>         Durrell is too obviously crafting the text to make that claim.

Yes, I thought that the "Preface" would a good place to start the 
discussion of /Bitter Lemons/. 

        This is not a political book, but simply a somewhat
        impressionistic study of the moods and atmospheres of Cyprus
        during the troubled years 1953-6.

As with all of Durrell's prefatory notes, epigraphs, dedications, and 
Workpoints, the reader is given a good deal of direction here. 

Here is my question:  We are currently focusing upon the first Chapter 
of /Bitter Lemons/.  If we read that "Preface" alongside Chapter 1: 
"Towards an Eastern Landfall," what do we find? 

That is, how does Chapter 1: "Towards an Eastern Landfall" work like a 
/second /"Preface" to /Bitter Lemons/, marking out, outlining, and (even 
better!) dramatizing Durrell's concerns in this book? 

To follow up on David's observation above, in Chapter 1, in what precise 
ways do we discover Durrell "crafting the text"?

/Kopiaste/!

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  5 08:35:45 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 08:35:45 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] diversity in the marketplace of ideas
Message-ID: <9118555.1183649745916.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

In this Mad Tea Party there is no Socrates.  Everyone can choose their parts or create new ones.  Dibs on the Dormouse.  We definitely need a sensible Alice.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 4, 2007 7:48 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] diversity in the marketplace of ideas
>
>Speaking of which, let's hear it from the hermaphrodites.
>
>:Michael
>
>
>On Thursday, July 5, 2007, at 03:31  am, william godshalk wrote:
>
>> If it is a problem, then it is for women to participate more.  But if 
>> they do not want to, tant pis.
>>
>>
>> Absolutely Michael. I was not suggesting that we coerce women into 
>> participating. And, of course, you always ask the question  that we 
>> should consider carefully. I'm tempted to say that you are our 
>> Socrates.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> Michael had asked:
>>
>> Why is this a serious problem?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Thu Jul  5 09:19:33 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:19:33 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Dutton omnibus
In-Reply-To: <2885742.1183509064340.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <2885742.1183509064340.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <468D1A15.3070209@wfu.edu>

Yes, another bibliographical note to archive in our ILDS listserv.

Now that I am back at my office, I have sitting before me the 1962 Faber 
one-volume /Quartet /and the 1962 Dutton one-volume /Quartet/.  After a 
quick collation, checking the texts against each other at those 
well-discussed points of potential difference, I can confirm that UK and 
US 1962 /Quartet /printings are equivalent.  (You will never catch a 
conscientious bibliographer saying "identical.") 

I do not find in these Faber and Dutton 1962 one-volumes a transposition 
of the "dedication" and "Note" as mentioned by Bruce.  That does not in 
any way rule out such accidents happening--books share many signs of our 
mortality--and I would be happy to hear reports of other examples.

Bruce, I am happy to say that if you have a Dutton 1962 with that 
variant order the book's value went up just a nudge.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From gifford at uvic.ca  Thu Jul  5 10:11:21 2007
From: gifford at uvic.ca (James Gifford)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 11:11:21 -0600
Subject: [ilds] Revolt
In-Reply-To: <468D0F5A.9080703@freenet.carleton.ca>
References: <C2AD8247.D888%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>
	<468D0F5A.9080703@freenet.carleton.ca>
Message-ID: <2bfc74100707051011m5e824e29mb3d8c2a530f3d643@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Philip,

It sounds like you have the North American Penguin edition, which
comes with the list of characters.  I got Durrell's notes for the
intended revisions out of a Dutton edition (the larger hardcovers with
the stylized "easter" covers).

I don't know what degree of involvement Durrell had with those Penguin
editions, but by that point we do know he was interacting with his
American publishers, so it's likely -- it's also equally possible it
was something tucked in by an editor for the presumably more
mainstream pocketbook audience.

I only picked up a copy of those editions a couple of weeks ago, so I
haven't looked through them in any real detail yet, apart from
noticing the note about the characters that you saw.

Are you at work on Tunc & Nunquam?  Unlike the declaration in _Bitter
Lemons_ that this is not a political book (not something to be taken
literarally, I think), I think _The Revolt of Aphrodite_ qualifies as
unabashedly politicized, though not in a straight forward way.  I've
been at work on Durrell's complicated interactions with anarchist and
socialist through through Surrealist circles in the 1930s and 40s
lately -- let me know if any of that might be of interest.

Best,
James

On 05/07/07, Philip Walsh <bf779 at freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
> James Gifford wrote on the differences between the British and US
> editions of  "Tunc", and adds:
> > Now I'm hunting for the companion _Nunquam_ volume...
> I recently acquired a copy of the Dutton edition of "Nunquam" and was
> surprised to find that it includes a brief list of the main characters
> and their backgrounds and relationships.  (Could Durrell have written
> these himself or approved them?)  This reminded me of the opening pages
> of the old Perry Mason mystery novels.
>
> Philip Walsh
> Ottawa, Canada
>
>


-- 
__________________
James Gifford
Department of English
University of Victoria
web.uvic.ca/~gifford

From lillios at mail.ucf.edu  Thu Jul  5 09:19:33 2007
From: lillios at mail.ucf.edu (Anna Lillios)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:19:33 -0400
Subject: [ilds] diversity in the marketplace of ideas
Message-ID: <468CE1D50200004D0001F56D@mail.ucf.edu>

Hi again,

    As a member of the Durrell Society, the intent behind my questioning of male readers' attraction to LD's femme fatales is to figure out, in general, how to expand interest in Durrell studies--by gender, race, age, etc--so that his works will survive through the 21st century.  Every time I travel, I go to bookstores and always look to see if his works are on the shelves.  I was recently in the Midwest and didn't find his books, even at the U. of Iowa Bookstore.  I like Bill's term, "diversity in the marketplace of ideas," but the big question is how to create it.  I think we're beyond feeling "tant pis."

                                                                                             --Anna Lillios 

Dr. Anna Lillios
Associate Professor of English
Department of English
University of Central Florida
P.O. Box 161346
Orlando, Florida 32816-1346

Phone: (407) 823-5161
FAX: (407) 823-6582
>>> Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com> 07/04/07 10:48 PM >>>
Speaking of which, let's hear it from the hermaphrodites.

:Michael


On Thursday, July 5, 2007, at 03:31  am, william godshalk wrote:

> If it is a problem, then it is for women to participate more.  But if 
> they do not want to, tant pis.
>
>
> Absolutely Michael. I was not suggesting that we coerce women into 
> participating. And, of course, you always ask the question  that we 
> should consider carefully. I'm tempted to say that you are our 
> Socrates.
>
> Bill
>
> Michael had asked:
>
> Why is this a serious problem?
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From bf779 at freenet.carleton.ca  Thu Jul  5 08:33:46 2007
From: bf779 at freenet.carleton.ca (Philip Walsh)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:33:46 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Revolt
In-Reply-To: <C2AD8247.D888%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>
References: <C2AD8247.D888%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <468D0F5A.9080703@freenet.carleton.ca>

James Gifford wrote on the differences between the British and US 
editions of  "Tunc", and adds:
> Now I'm hunting for the companion _Nunquam_ volume...
I recently acquired a copy of the Dutton edition of "Nunquam" and was 
surprised to find that it includes a brief list of the main characters 
and their backgrounds and relationships.  (Could Durrell have written 
these himself or approved them?)  This reminded me of the opening pages 
of the old Perry Mason mystery novels.

Philip Walsh
Ottawa, Canada


From richardpin at eircom.net  Thu Jul  5 10:19:34 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 18:19:34 +0100
Subject: [ilds] numinous woman
References: <29074458.1183567690075.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <016c01c7bf28$aa7e7600$9f4f1359@rpinelaptop>

And what about all the inflatable dolls in almost every corner? RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] numinous woman


>I like "numinous woman."  But what about Martine in Sicilian Carousel?  And 
>Chantal de Legume in Smile in the Mind's Eye?  And Cunegonde in Caesar's 
>Vast Ghost?  I see a pattern here, perhaps a disturbing one.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>Sent: Jul 4, 2007 9:34 AM
>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: [ilds] numinous woman
>>
>>Always look for that numinous woman in Durrell's work.  When you have
>>found her, you have found Durrell most alive and his writing at its
>>best.
>>
>>:Michael
>>
>>
>>On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 05:14  pm, slighcl wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I will follow Michael's account of N. as "presence" with my account of
>>> N. as someone or something "numinous"--that is, a thing of mystery,
>>> brimful of divine presence, as the Victorian Graal poets or perhaps
>>> Santayana would have seen her.
>>>
>>> My last question about "N. contrasted with Justine" still interests
>>> me.  Note how Justine is incredibly present as a name in the
>>> Quartet.   She goes from enigma to petty reality (as a peasant in a
>>> commune; then again as a Machiavellian player at the close of Clea)
>>> and then to a new enigma, as if she is able to arrive anew, reborn in
>>> her mystery.
>>>
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From richardpin at eircom.net  Thu Jul  5 10:23:47 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 18:23:47 +0100
Subject: [ilds] numinous woman
References: <17939991.1183581589243.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <019501c7bf29$418a5e60$9f4f1359@rpinelaptop>

I was interviewed by the BBC and was asked that question. I said 'Gonde is a 
hinge, so she is the cunt on which everything hinges'. I thought I might be 
the first to utter the 'c' word on BBC, but I was dubbed as to say 'She is 
the cuney on which everything hinges'. RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] numinous woman


> Well, that's Cunegonde all right.  And that's probably the fate of us all, 
> which has its attractions.  By the way, anyone know the etymology of 
> French Cunegonde?  I'm thinking of puppets, the theater of Punch and Judy.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>>Sent: Jul 4, 2007 12:37 PM
>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] numinous woman
>>
>>On 7/4/2007 1:36 PM, Michael Haag wrote:
>>
>>>The movement is towards inflatability.
>>>
>>            "When he was very old he had a model of the perfect woman
>>            built for him in rubber--life-size.  She could be filled
>>            with hot water in the winter.  She was strikingly
>>            beautiful.  He called her Sabina after his mother, and took
>>            her everywhere." (/Justine /1.17)
>>
>>-- 
>>**********************
>>Charles L. Sligh
>>Department of English
>>Wake Forest University
>>slighcl at wfu.edu
>>**********************
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  5 11:27:01 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 11:27:01 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Country matters
Message-ID: <11475334.1183660021787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Thanks, RP, but you're not the first on the English stage.

Ham.  Lady, shall I lie in your lap?
Oph.  No, my lord.
Ham.  I mean, my head in your lap.
Oph.  Ay, my lord.
Ham.  Do you think I meant country matters?
Oph.  I think nothing my lord.

(Ham. III, ii, 110-16)

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 10:23 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] numinous woman
>
>I was interviewed by the BBC and was asked that question. I said 'Gonde is a 
>hinge, so she is the cunt on which everything hinges'. I thought I might be 
>the first to utter the 'c' word on BBC, but I was dubbed as to say 'She is 
>the cuney on which everything hinges'. RP
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 9:39 PM
>Subject: Re: [ilds] numinous woman
>
>
>> Well, that's Cunegonde all right.  And that's probably the fate of us all, 
>> which has its attractions.  By the way, anyone know the etymology of 
>> French Cunegonde?  I'm thinking of puppets, the theater of Punch and Judy.
>>
>> Bruce




From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  5 11:41:43 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 11:41:43 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] diversity in the marketplace of ideas
Message-ID: <21156802.1183660904007.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I do that sort of thing too, but only out of curiosity.  None of this bothers me in the least.  Durrell's survival does not depend on "marketing."  I hate that word, which defines corporate culture today.  He will survive because of who he is.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Anna Lillios <lillios at mail.ucf.edu>
>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 9:19 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] diversity in the marketplace of ideas
>
>Hi again,
>
>    As a member of the Durrell Society, the intent behind my questioning of male readers' attraction to LD's femme fatales is to figure out, in general, how to expand interest in Durrell studies--by gender, race, age, etc--so that his works will survive through the 21st century.  Every time I travel, I go to bookstores and always look to see if his works are on the shelves.  I was recently in the Midwest and didn't find his books, even at the U. of Iowa Bookstore.  I like Bill's term, "diversity in the marketplace of ideas," but the big question is how to create it.  I think we're beyond feeling "tant pis."
>
>                                                                                             --Anna Lillios 
>
>Dr. Anna Lillios
>Associate Professor of English
>Department of English
>University of Central Florida
>P.O. Box 161346
>Orlando, Florida 32816-1346
>
>Phone: (407) 823-5161
>FAX: (407) 823-6582
>>>> Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com> 07/04/07 10:48 PM >>>
>Speaking of which, let's hear it from the hermaphrodites.
>
>:Michael
>
>
>On Thursday, July 5, 2007, at 03:31  am, william godshalk wrote:
>
>> If it is a problem, then it is for women to participate more.  But if 
>> they do not want to, tant pis.
>>
>>
>> Absolutely Michael. I was not suggesting that we coerce women into 
>> participating. And, of course, you always ask the question  that we 
>> should consider carefully. I'm tempted to say that you are our 
>> Socrates.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> Michael had asked:
>>
>> Why is this a serious problem?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Thu Jul  5 11:23:48 2007
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 04:23:48 +1000
Subject: [ilds] Aussie Census
Message-ID: <001e01c7bf31$a18291e0$0202a8c0@MumandDad>

The Greens

David (age 47) occupation: School teacher (History, English Geography). Previous jobs: Sales representative, freelance writer, picture framer, farm labourer. Hobbies: Pot plants, wine, history, reading Durrell books.

Denise (age 47) Occupation: travel agent and marriage celebrant. Previous jobs: conference manager, sales representative (minster FM, Yorkshire), research assistant, Australian Film and Television Corp.
Hobbies: Crested ware at Newington College, wine, reading fiction generally, historic houses trust.

Note: Denise has read Bitter Lemons, but no other Durrell books. tends to think Durrell was a male chauvenist pig but does agree that he was a witty rascal and an excellent writer.

Hope this is enough data Bruce.

David (whitewine)

PS as of yesterday there are 21 million people in Australia almost all of whom have never heard of Lawrence Durrell. Durrell never came here but he does mention Australia in Bitter Lemons - Mr Honey the alcoholic hole digger is described as trying to dig his way to Australia to escape from Cyprus and make a better life. Perhaps others did too for there are many Greek Cypriots in Australia, most of them in Melbourne, the third largest Greek city in the world after Athens and Thesalonika.


Denise Tart & David Green
16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204
Sydney, Australia

+61 2 9564 6165
0412 707 625
dtart at bigpond.net.au
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From gifford at uvic.ca  Thu Jul  5 12:00:42 2007
From: gifford at uvic.ca (James Gifford)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 13:00:42 -0600
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Women
In-Reply-To: <14315828.1183646486335.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <14315828.1183646486335.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <2bfc74100707051200o49deae93m619e7fe70078f996@mail.gmail.com>

Bruce gives and emphatic "yes" to Anna's question, but I'm not sure if I agree:

> Why are so many men interested in Durrell
> studies, i.e. most of the respondents in the
> discussion group are male?  Is it because
> they are fascinated by Durrell's fantasy
> women and the world he creates around
> them?

I don't think it's as easy as that, and for myself as one reader, I
can say it has nothing to do with why I find Durrell's books
appealing.  For me, it's landscape, the set-pieces, and form --
character plays a lesser role in comparison to my more plot-driven
tastes.

If we're interested in the dynamics of the group and the history of
the scholarship, as I've mentioned, a very good portion of the
critical writing has been done by women, and recently there's been an
increase in readings of Durrell's queer characters, probably most
notably by Joseph Boone.  I suspect that discussions of gender, sex,
and identity politics would become rather complicated with Durrell,
since he keeps making any categorization of his work uncomfortable.

In general, I don't think the gender of the reader has much to do with
the appeal of the characters, at least not for Durrell.  The comments
from "real" readers in the wild that I've seen seem to focus on
intrigue heaped around Justine -- Darley just doesn't grab one that
forcefully, regardless of gender, or at least he doesn't grab me that
strongly as a personality.

Best,
James

From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Jul  5 12:14:06 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 15:14:06 -0400
Subject: [ilds] tough questions
In-Reply-To: <9118555.1183649745916.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.e
	arthlink.net>
References: <9118555.1183649745916.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070705191409.WVNA3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  5 12:17:26 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:17:26 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Dutton omnibus
Message-ID: <27740760.1183663046359.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Charles, yes, I rechecked my 1962 omnibus Dutton, signed copy 114 of 199, and found the transposition, as previously reported.  You have just given "a nudge" to "the whole universe."

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 9:19 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine -- Dutton omnibus
>
>Yes, another bibliographical note to archive in our ILDS listserv.
>
>Now that I am back at my office, I have sitting before me the 1962 Faber 
>one-volume /Quartet /and the 1962 Dutton one-volume /Quartet/.  After a 
>quick collation, checking the texts against each other at those 
>well-discussed points of potential difference, I can confirm that UK and 
>US 1962 /Quartet /printings are equivalent.  (You will never catch a 
>conscientious bibliographer saying "identical.") 
>
>I do not find in these Faber and Dutton 1962 one-volumes a transposition 
>of the "dedication" and "Note" as mentioned by Bruce.  That does not in 
>any way rule out such accidents happening--books share many signs of our 
>mortality--and I would be happy to hear reports of other examples.
>
>Bruce, I am happy to say that if you have a Dutton 1962 with that 
>variant order the book's value went up just a nudge.
>
>Charles


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Jul  5 12:27:24 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 15:27:24 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Reno Wideson -- a footnote
In-Reply-To: <20070705004133.WZAW7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email
	.uc.edu>
References: <8800524.1183584487001.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<20070705004133.WZAW7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <20070705192727.BMTE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  5 12:28:36 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:28:36 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Aussie Census
Message-ID: <1326127.1183663716508.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

A special dispensation will have to be granted the Greens, who are under 50.  Otherwise, they qualify.  I shall consult my medium in touch with LD's spirit -- but no problems, I'm sure.  By the way, is the "six o'clock swill" still a phenomenon in Australia.  An Australian once described it to me, and I think he was serious -- but you never know with Australians.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Denise Tart & David Green <dtart at bigpond.net.au>
>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 11:23 AM
>To: Durrel <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Subject: [ilds] Aussie Census
>
>The Greens
>
>David (age 47) occupation: School teacher (History, English Geography). Previous jobs: Sales representative, freelance writer, picture framer, farm labourer. Hobbies: Pot plants, wine, history, reading Durrell books.
>
>Denise (age 47) Occupation: travel agent and marriage celebrant. Previous jobs: conference manager, sales representative (minster FM, Yorkshire), research assistant, Australian Film and Television Corp.
>Hobbies: Crested ware at Newington College, wine, reading fiction generally, historic houses trust.
>
>Note: Denise has read Bitter Lemons, but no other Durrell books. tends to think Durrell was a male chauvenist pig but does agree that he was a witty rascal and an excellent writer.
>
>Hope this is enough data Bruce.
>
>David (whitewine)
>
>PS as of yesterday there are 21 million people in Australia almost all of whom have never heard of Lawrence Durrell. Durrell never came here but he does mention Australia in Bitter Lemons - Mr Honey the alcoholic hole digger is described as trying to dig his way to Australia to escape from Cyprus and make a better life. Perhaps others did too for there are many Greek Cypriots in Australia, most of them in Melbourne, the third largest Greek city in the world after Athens and Thesalonika.
>
>
>Denise Tart & David Green
>16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204
>Sydney, Australia



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  5 12:43:09 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:43:09 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] tough questions
Message-ID: <19961800.1183664589859.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


Did Michael ask that?  I took the question to mean it was up to women to speak up, should they so choose.  No enforced quotas here.  Now, an appeal to Hermaphrodites and the five-plus sexes is a good Durrellian question.

Bruce


-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 12:14 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: tough questions
>
>What I meant about Michael as our "Socrates" is that he asksquestions about topics that many people don't ask questions about. Suchas, why do we need more women to be active in our discussion group? Ithink that most Americans don't want to go there.
>
>Bill
>
>At 11:35 AM 7/5/2007, you wrote:
>In this Mad Tea Party thereis no Socrates.  Everyone can choose their parts or create newones.  Dibs on the Dormouse.  We definitely need a sensibleAlice.
>
>Bruce


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  5 12:49:09 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:49:09 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Reno Wideson -- a footnote
Message-ID: <30571794.1183664949745.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Thu Jul  5 13:26:18 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 16:26:18 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Women
In-Reply-To: <2bfc74100707051200o49deae93m619e7fe70078f996@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14315828.1183646486335.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<2bfc74100707051200o49deae93m619e7fe70078f996@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <468D53EA.70200@wfu.edu>

On 7/5/2007 3:00 PM, James Gifford wrote:

>Bruce gives and emphatic "yes" to Anna's question, but I'm not sure if I agree:
>  
>
>>Why are so many men interested in Durrell
>>studies, i.e. most of the respondents in the
>>discussion group are male?  Is it because
>>they are fascinated by Durrell's fantasy
>>women and the world he creates around
>>them?
>>        
>>
I think that I am "predominantly male"--perhaps 84%?  Surely there might 
be tests? 

But my interest in Durrell has not a thing to do with masculine desire 
for the "Durrellian" women with which he peopled his novels.  One of 
those women I find completely cloying (Clea).  Another (Justine), I find 
less and less interesting every time I meet her.   I would, however, 
like to help out "poor Melissa" in some way.   Charity, in the Greek 
sense.  The poor kid was handed a sorry deal by life--or at least by her 
Demiurge.

Instead, the sources of my interest and my championing of Lawrence 
Durrell might be set out beneath three major headings and another, more 
minor heading:

        *1) Major: *The singularity of Lawrence Durrell's prose style. 
        Aesthetics are prime in the Durrell books that I favor.  And I
        have come to think that any "concepts" about /Love /or /Place
        /or /Relativity /(!) have their first significance for Durrell
        in their formal appeal of relationship and sound and sense.   I
        find Durrell is at his best when his works aspire to the
        condition of music or paint.  Then, if his big ideas hold up
        over the span of the work, they just might even come to make a
        "statement."   But I would not want to force them to do that.  
        Nor would I wish to forbid them to do that.

        *2)  Major:* Lawrence Durrell's imaginative process at work in
        the /Quartet /notebooks and the knockout beauty of his Faber books.

        *3) Major: *The good friendships I have made with good people
        around the world through a common, elective affinity for things
        Durrellian.

        *4)  Minor: *The singularity of Lawrence Durrell's life, along
        with the ongoing puzzle of his past days of celebrity and his
        current moment of diminishment.  Read here:  I cheer and rally
        to these sort of Jacobite, outcast causes.  (Perhaps I learned
        some that loyalty from Durrell?)  Let's all raise a glass for
        "/Larry across the water/."

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From richardpin at eircom.net  Thu Jul  5 14:58:23 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 22:58:23 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Country matters
References: <11475334.1183660021787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <031b01c7bf4f$9e022210$9f4f1359@rpinelaptop>

I dont think the BBC was functioning in the sixteenth century, but I am 
prepared to be proved wrong. RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] Country matters


> Thanks, RP, but you're not the first on the English stage.
>
> Ham.  Lady, shall I lie in your lap?
> Oph.  No, my lord.
> Ham.  I mean, my head in your lap.
> Oph.  Ay, my lord.
> Ham.  Do you think I meant country matters?
> Oph.  I think nothing my lord.
>
> (Ham. III, ii, 110-16)
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 10:23 AM
>>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] numinous woman
>>
>>I was interviewed by the BBC and was asked that question. I said 'Gonde is 
>>a
>>hinge, so she is the cunt on which everything hinges'. I thought I might 
>>be
>>the first to utter the 'c' word on BBC, but I was dubbed as to say 'She is
>>the cuney on which everything hinges'. RP
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 9:39 PM
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] numinous woman
>>
>>
>>> Well, that's Cunegonde all right.  And that's probably the fate of us 
>>> all,
>>> which has its attractions.  By the way, anyone know the etymology of
>>> French Cunegonde?  I'm thinking of puppets, the theater of Punch and 
>>> Judy.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Jul  5 16:29:48 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:29:48 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Country matters on the stage
In-Reply-To: <031b01c7bf4f$9e022210$9f4f1359@rpinelaptop>
References: <11475334.1183660021787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<031b01c7bf4f$9e022210$9f4f1359@rpinelaptop>
Message-ID: <20070705232951.CTZE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Thu Jul  5 16:46:25 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 00:46:25 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Aussie Census
In-Reply-To: <001e01c7bf31$a18291e0$0202a8c0@MumandDad>
Message-ID: <F13125C2-2B51-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

At last, a breath of fresh air.  A woman who admits to thinking Durrell 
was a male chauvinist pig.  I would like to hear more.

:Michael



On Thursday, July 5, 2007, at 07:23  pm, Denise Tart & David Green 
wrote:

> The Greens
> ?
> David (age 47) occupation: School teacher (History, English 
> Geography). Previous jobs: Sales representative, freelance writer, 
> picture framer, farm labourer. Hobbies: Pot plants, wine, history, 
> reading Durrell books.
> ?
> Denise (age 47) Occupation: travel agent and marriage celebrant. 
> Previous jobs: conference manager, sales representative (minster FM, 
> Yorkshire), research assistant, Australian Film and Television Corp.
> Hobbies: Crested ware at Newington College, wine, reading fiction 
> generally, historic houses trust.
> ?
> Note: Denise has read Bitter Lemons, but no other Durrell books. tends 
> to think Durrell was a male chauvenist pig but does agree that he was 
> a witty rascal and an excellent writer.
> ?
> Hope this is enough data Bruce.
> ?
> David (whitewine)
> ?
> PS as of yesterday there are 21 million people in Australia almost all 
> of whom have never heard of Lawrence Durrell. Durrell never came here 
> but he does mention Australia in Bitter Lemons - Mr Honey the 
> alcoholic hole digger is described as trying to dig his way to 
> Australia to escape from Cyprus and make a better life. Perhaps others 
> did too for there are many Greek Cypriots in Australia, most of them 
> in Melbourne, the third largest Greek city in the world after Athens 
> and Thesalonika.
> ?
> ?
> Denise Tart & David Green
> 16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204
> Sydney, Australia
> ?
> +61 2 9564 6165
> 0412 707 625
> dtart at bigpond.net.au
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Thu Jul  5 16:49:13 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 00:49:13 +0100
Subject: [ilds] tough questions
In-Reply-To: <20070705191409.WVNA3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <55A8D012-2B52-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Most Americans do not want to go even to Corfu, judging from the 
Durrell School's publicity promising that the island is 'safe'.  Safe 
from what?  Corfiots?

:Michael



On Thursday, July 5, 2007, at 08:14  pm, william godshalk wrote:

> What I meant about Michael as our "Socrates" is that he asks questions 
> about topics that many people don't ask questions about. Such as, why 
> do we need more women to be active in our discussion group? I think 
> that most Americans don't want to go there.
>
> Bill
>
> At 11:35 AM 7/5/2007, you wrote:
>
> In this Mad Tea Party there is no Socrates.? Everyone can choose their 
> parts or create new ones.? Dibs on the Dormouse.? We definitely need a 
> sensible Alice.
>
> Bruce
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Thu Jul  5 16:51:53 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 00:51:53 +0100
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Dutton omnibus
In-Reply-To: <27740760.1183663046359.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B4EEBB37-2B52-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Bravo!


On Thursday, July 5, 2007, at 08:17  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:

> Charles, yes, I rechecked my 1962 omnibus Dutton, signed copy 114 of 
> 199, and found the transposition, as previously reported.  You have 
> just given "a nudge" to "the whole universe."
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>> Sent: Jul 5, 2007 9:19 AM
>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine -- Dutton omnibus
>>
>> Yes, another bibliographical note to archive in our ILDS listserv.
>>
>> Now that I am back at my office, I have sitting before me the 1962 
>> Faber
>> one-volume /Quartet /and the 1962 Dutton one-volume /Quartet/.  After 
>> a
>> quick collation, checking the texts against each other at those
>> well-discussed points of potential difference, I can confirm that UK 
>> and
>> US 1962 /Quartet /printings are equivalent.  (You will never catch a
>> conscientious bibliographer saying "identical.")
>>
>> I do not find in these Faber and Dutton 1962 one-volumes a 
>> transposition
>> of the "dedication" and "Note" as mentioned by Bruce.  That does not 
>> in
>> any way rule out such accidents happening--books share many signs of 
>> our
>> mortality--and I would be happy to hear reports of other examples.
>>
>> Bruce, I am happy to say that if you have a Dutton 1962 with that
>> variant order the book's value went up just a nudge.
>>
>> Charles
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Jul  5 16:51:02 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:51:02 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Reno Wideson -- a footnote
In-Reply-To: <30571794.1183664949745.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.
	sa.earthlink.net>
References: <30571794.1183664949745.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070705235104.YHYN3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Jul  5 16:53:55 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:53:55 -0400
Subject: [ilds] tough questions
In-Reply-To: <55A8D012-2B52-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <20070705191409.WVNA3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<55A8D012-2B52-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Jul  5 17:37:05 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:37:05 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
In-Reply-To: <20070705232951.CTZE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email
	.uc.edu>
References: <11475334.1183660021787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<031b01c7bf4f$9e022210$9f4f1359@rpinelaptop>
	<20070705232951.CTZE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <20070706003717.YMJV3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

"Apparently the hotel was to be an echo of Coleridge" (last page of 
"Towards an Eastern Landfall.")

I assume it's the word "Dome" that sets off the echo. But why does 
Durrell mention it?

Bill
***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From slighcl at wfu.edu  Thu Jul  5 17:51:47 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:51:47 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
In-Reply-To: <20070706003717.YMJV3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <11475334.1183660021787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<031b01c7bf4f$9e022210$9f4f1359@rpinelaptop>	<20070705232951.CTZE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<20070706003717.YMJV3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <468D9223.1090507@wfu.edu>



On 7/5/2007 8:37 PM, william godshalk wrote:

>"Apparently the hotel was to be an echo of Coleridge" (last page of 
>"Towards an Eastern Landfall.")
>
>I assume it's the word "Dome" that sets off the echo. But why does 
>Durrell mention it?
>
The effect is comic, the stuff of /bathos/.

        "Within the hour," he said, you will arrive at the Dome." 
        Swiftly and expressively his hand built up a series of belfries
        and cupolas, of towers and turrets.  Apparently the hotel was to
        be an echo of Coleridge.

Think of the driver's /ouzo/-induced enthusiasm, and then follow with:

        Beware ! Beware !
        His flashing eyes, his floating hair !
        Weave a circle round him thrice,
        And close your eyes with holy dread,
        For he on honey-dew hath fed,
        And drunk the milk of Paradise.

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Jul  5 17:51:26 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:51:26 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- no women?
In-Reply-To: <20070706003717.YMJV3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email
	.uc.edu>
References: <11475334.1183660021787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<031b01c7bf4f$9e022210$9f4f1359@rpinelaptop>
	<20070705232951.CTZE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<20070706003717.YMJV3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Thu Jul  5 17:59:27 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:59:27 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes
In-Reply-To: <20070706005149.FEGC15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <11475334.1183660021787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<031b01c7bf4f$9e022210$9f4f1359@rpinelaptop>	<20070705232951.CTZE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>	<20070706003717.YMJV3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<20070706005149.FEGC15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <468D93EF.8080209@wfu.edu>

The image

Lewis, Agnes Smith (1843-1926), Arabic and Syriac scholar and novelist, 
was born Agnes Smith on 16 April 1843 in Irvine, Ayrshire[. . . .]

Her inheritance from her father left her wealthy. Later their fatherly 
mentor, the minister Dr William Robertson of Irvine, inspired her 
intellect and supported their desire to travel. The sisters' journey to 
Greece, Turkey, Egypt, and Palestine resulted in her travel book Eastern 
Pilgrims (1870). In the following years she acquired several languages 
(Greek, Spanish, Hebrew, Syriac, Arabic, and Persian). For several years 
she wrote novels: Effie Maxwell (1876), the partly autobiographical 
Glenmavis (1879), and The Brides of Ardmore (1880). Several journeys 
followed and resulted in two travel books, the pro-Greek Glimpses of 
Greek Life and Scenery (1884), and Through Cyprus (1887), and the 
translation of a Greek handbook The Monuments of Athens (1884) by P. G. 
Kastromenos. In 1883 her sister married James Young Gibson; he died 
suddenly on 2 October 1886. On 12 December 1887 Agnes Smith married the 
Revd Samuel Savage Lewis (1836-1891), classicist, antiquary, and fellow 
and librarian of Corpus Christi College, Cambridge; they had no 
children. After his sudden death (31 March 1891) she published the Life 
of the Rev. Samuel Savage Lewis (1892). After their husbands' deaths she 
and her sister lived and travelled together. Their home was her large 
Gothic revival house, built in 1890, Castle-brae in Chesterton Lane, 
Cambridge. There they studied and entertained; at their garden parties a 
piper played on the lawn. Always loyal to Presbyterianism, they attended 
St Columba's Church and assisted in its Sunday school and other 
activities. Forceful, they were considered eccentric. They dressed 
expensively if somewhat frumpishly, and wore white stockings. They had 
one of the first cars in Cambridge.

Agnes Smith Lewis's scholarly career began late. Persuaded by Dr James 
Rendel Harris, from 1892 until 1906 she and her sister made several 
journeys (1892, 1893, 1895, 1897, 1901, 1906) to Cairo, the monastery of 
St Catherine at Mount Sinai (where Harris and Tischendorf had discovered 
important manuscripts), the Coptic convent of St Mary Deipara at Deir 
al-Suriani in the Wadi al-Natrun, Egypt, and Palestine for research. 
Already in 1898 her In the Shadow of Sinai: a Story of Travel and 
Research from 1895 to 1897 appeared. Her proficiency in modern Greek 
enabled her to gain permission to enter the Greek Orthodox monastery of 
St Catherine and to be on excellent terms with the monks. The first and 
second trip to St Catherine were the most successful. It was then that 
she discovered and photographed part of the Syriac Codex Sinaiticus 
(gospel palimpsest manuscript, fifth century AD), the second known 
manuscript of the Old Syriac version beside the incomplete 
'Curetonianus' published by William Cureton (1858); this new discovery 
resulted in A Translation of the Four Gospels from the Syriac of the 
Sinai Palimpsest (1894), The Old Syriac Gospels, or, Evangelion 
da-Mepharresh? (1910), and the more general Light on the Four Gospels 
from the Sinai Palimpsest (1913). Her two letters dealing with the 
discovery of the gospel palimpsest and addressed to the editor of The 
Times were printed privately as Two Unpublished Letters (1893). During 
her succeeding trips to St Catherine she prepared manuscript 
descriptions which were published in Catalogue of the Syriac MSS in the 
Convent of S. Catherine on Mount Sinai (1894). She also copied three 
lectionaries of the gospels written in Christian Palestinian Aramaic 
(Palestinian Syriac) and published them together with another version 
from the Vatican as The Palestinian Syriac Lectionary of the Gospels 
(1899). Further Syriac text editions by her are Select Narratives of 
Holy Women (1900), Apocrypha Syriaca: the protevangelium Jacobi and 
transitus Mariae (1902), and Acta mythologica apostolorum (1904). 
Considered an authority on Syriac, she was asked to contribute her 
translation of the Syriac version of Ahikar which appeared as The Story 
of Ahikar (1898).

At the antiquities market in Cairo, Agnes Smith Lewis purchased 
manuscripts including unique palimpsests written in Christian 
Palestinian Aramaic (now in Westminster College, Cambridge). These not 
very legible palimpsests were edited and published as A Palestinian 
Syriac Lectionary (1897), the only non-palimpsest manuscript, Codex 
climaci rescriptus (1909), and The Forty Martyrs of the Sinai Desert and 
the Story of Eulogios (1912). Less successful was her edition, together 
with her sister, of palimpsest fragments from the Cairo genizah 
overwritten in Hebrew and Galilean Aramaic which were entrusted to her 
by S. Schechter, and four fragmentary pieces from their private 
collection. The fragments appeared in Palestinian Syriac Texts from 
Palimpsest Fragments in the Taylor-Schechter Collection (1900). An 
addition was published two years later as An Appendix of Palestinian 
Syriac Texts. One spectacular discovery among the sisters' acquisitions 
from the Cairo genizah in 1896 was a fragment in Hebrew of Jesus Ben 
Sira (Ecclesiasticus), a Jewish text composed in Hebrew about 180 BC, 
but only known until then from the Greek translation in the Septuagint. 
Her purchases in Cairo subsequently led Schechter to go to the Cairo 
genizah, once the Ben Sira fragment (39: 15-40: ?) had been identified. 
She and Alphonse Mingana edited the controversial Leaves from Three 
Ancient Qurans, Possibly pre-Othomanic (1914).

Agnes Smith Lewis's scholarly achievements were honoured with the 
Triennial gold medal of the Royal Asiatic Society--the blue riband of 
oriental research--in 1915, presented by Austen Chamberlain, secretary 
of state for India. She received honorary doctorates from Halle an der 
Saale (PhD, 1899), St Andrews (honorary DD, 1901), Heidelberg (honorary 
DD, 1904), and Dublin (LittD, 1911). She and her sister gave funds for 
the site and towards the buildings of the Presbyterian theological 
college, Westminster College, Cambridge. In May 1897 they laid the 
foundation stone. They also purchased the library of Eberhard Nestle, a 
renowned German New Testament scholar, containing valuable editions 
(later sold) for the college. In her last years she was entirely 
incapacitated by paralysis. Her sister died on 11 January 1920, and she 
died on 26 March 1926 at her home, Castle-brae, Chesterton Lane, 
Cambridge. She was buried in Cambridge. She left the residue of her 
estate to the English Presbyterian church, mainly for Westminster 
College. Castle-brae became a hostel for Clare College students.

Christa M?ller-Kessler [DNB]

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Jul  5 18:11:40 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:11:40 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
In-Reply-To: <468D9223.1090507@wfu.edu>
References: <11475334.1183660021787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<031b01c7bf4f$9e022210$9f4f1359@rpinelaptop>
	<20070705232951.CTZE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<20070706003717.YMJV3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<468D9223.1090507@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <20070706011212.FGKA15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Thu Jul  5 18:18:32 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:18:32 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes
In-Reply-To: <468D93EF.8080209@wfu.edu>
References: <11475334.1183660021787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<031b01c7bf4f$9e022210$9f4f1359@rpinelaptop>	<20070705232951.CTZE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>	<20070706003717.YMJV3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>	<20070706005149.FEGC15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<468D93EF.8080209@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <468D9868.6050800@wfu.edu>



On 7/5/2007 8:59 PM, slighcl wrote:

>
>
>     Lewis, Agnes Smith (1843-1926), Arabic and Syriac scholar and
>     novelist, was born Agnes Smith on 16 April 1843 in Irvine,
>     Ayrshire[. . . .]
>
Could someone more expert on Anglo-Cypriot relations confirm for me that 
this is "Mrs. Lewis"?

Like Bill, I am looking at a bookdealer's description that tells me

        A Lady's Impressions of Cyprus.
        Lewis, Mrs. [Agnes, formerly Agnes Smith]
        Bookseller: Bay Laurel Books
        (Kent, LON, United Kingdom)     Price: US$ 1869.61


        Book Description: Remington & Company, Limited., 1894.
        Hardcover. Book Condition: Very Good. 1st Edition. First
        edition. 8vo. pp. ix, 346; extending map frontis., 3 plates from
        sketches; embrowning to endpapers, slight spotting to frontis.
        and title, occasional pencil annotations, else a very good copy
        in the original cloth, gilt, a little rubbed. Bookseller
        Inventory # 000653


But given that "Smith" and "Lewis" are not the most distinctive names to 
search out--too many!--I am worried we are at crossed-signals.

Thanks!

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Thu Jul  5 18:27:16 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 02:27:16 +0100
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes
In-Reply-To: <468D9868.6050800@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <081EEBAD-2B60-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Not the same woman.  The author of A Lady's First etc was Elizabeth A M 
Lewis.

:Michael


On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:18  am, slighcl wrote:

>
>
> On 7/5/2007 8:59 PM, slighcl wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lewis, Agnes Smith (1843?1926), Arabic and Syriac scholar and 
> novelist, was born Agnes Smith on 16 April 1843 in Irvine, Ayrshire[. 
> . . .]
>
> Could someone more expert on Anglo-Cypriot relations confirm for me 
> that this is "Mrs. Lewis"?
>
> Like Bill, I am looking at a bookdealer's description that tells me
>
> A Lady's Impressions of Cyprus.
> Lewis, Mrs. [Agnes, formerly Agnes Smith]
> Bookseller: Bay Laurel Books
> (Kent, LON, United Kingdom) ??? Price: US$ 1869.61
>
>
> Book Description: Remington & Company, Limited., 1894. Hardcover. Book 
> Condition: Very Good. 1st Edition. First edition. 8vo. pp. ix, 346; 
> extending map frontis., 3 plates from sketches; embrowning to 
> endpapers, slight spotting to frontis. and title, occasional pencil 
> annotations, else a very good copy in the original cloth, gilt, a 
> little rubbed. Bookseller Inventory # 000653
>
>
> But given that "Smith" and "Lewis" are not the most distinctive names 
> to search out--too many!--I am worried we are at crossed-signals.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Charles
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Thu Jul  5 18:24:55 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:24:55 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of Elizabeth Alicia Maria
 Lewis
In-Reply-To: <468D9868.6050800@wfu.edu>
References: <11475334.1183660021787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<031b01c7bf4f$9e022210$9f4f1359@rpinelaptop>	<20070705232951.CTZE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>	<20070706003717.YMJV3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>	<20070706005149.FEGC15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>	<468D93EF.8080209@wfu.edu>
	<468D9868.6050800@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <468D99E7.80800@wfu.edu>

No.  Wrong Lewis.  In WorldCat I find the following identification:

    Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis


And there I went trying to make into Mrs. Lewis an Orientalist scholar 
and founder of schools!

But our Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis really did like Cyprus:

    /The Templars in Cyprus :
    a dramatic poem/ /

    Friedrich Ludwig Zacharias Werner;  Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis
    1886
    English Book Book 262 p. ; 19 cm.
    London : G. Bell and Sons.


Self-correcting,

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Thu Jul  5 18:32:10 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 02:32:10 +0100
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of Elizabeth Alicia Maria
	Lewis
In-Reply-To: <468D99E7.80800@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <B755059A-2B60-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Probably the source of Durrell's misinformation about the Templars on 
Cyprus.

By the way, Elizabeth David's copy of A Lady's etc recently sold for 
?460.  A snip.

:Michael



On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:24  am, slighcl wrote:

> No.? Wrong Lewis.? In WorldCat I find the following identification:
>
> Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis
>
>
> And there I went trying to make into Mrs. Lewis an Orientalist scholar 
> and founder of schools!
>
> But our Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis really did like Cyprus:
>
> The Templars in Cyprus :
> a dramatic poem /
>
> Friedrich Ludwig Zacharias Werner;? Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis
> 1886
> English Book Book 262 p. ; 19 cm.
> London : G. Bell and Sons.
>
>
> Self-correcting,
>
> Charles
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Thu Jul  5 18:34:12 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:34:12 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes
In-Reply-To: <081EEBAD-2B60-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <081EEBAD-2B60-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <468D9C14.8070606@wfu.edu>



On 7/5/2007 9:27 PM, Michael Haag wrote:

> Not the same woman. The author of A Lady's First etc was Elizabeth A M 
> Lewis. 

Thanks, Michael. 

An interesting instance of how one wrong record could have set me on to 
a false trail.  And that bookshop still is asking for US $2000 after 
misidentifying the author. 

Carefully, carefully.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Jul  5 18:38:50 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:38:50 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes
In-Reply-To: <468D9C14.8070606@wfu.edu>
References: <081EEBAD-2B60-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<468D9C14.8070606@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <20070706013912.YSVP3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Thu Jul  5 18:48:03 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 02:48:03 +0100
Subject: [ilds] sexism
Message-ID: <EF35F296-2B62-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

A.  Why are so many men interested in Durrell studies, i.e. most of the
respondents in the discussion group are male?  Is it because they are
fascinated by Durrell's fantasy women and the world he creates around
them?   - Anna Lillios

> B.    As a member of the Durrell Society, the intent behind my 
> questioning of male readers' attraction to LD's femme fatales is to 
> figure out, in general, how to expand interest in Durrell studies--by 
> gender, race, age, etc--so that his works will survive through the 
> 21st century.  Every time I travel, I go to bookstores and always look 
> to see if his works are on the shelves.  I was recently in the Midwest 
> and didn't find his books, even at the U. of Iowa Bookstore.  I like 
> Bill's term, "diversity in the marketplace of ideas," but the big 
> question is how to create it.  I think we're beyond feeling "tant 
> pis."  - Anna Lillios

Statement A is a sexist leading question.  Statement B seems to bare no 
relationship to statement A.  The proper answer, as I said before, is 
for women to make a greater contribution.

:Michael


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Thu Jul  5 18:50:06 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:50:06 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- cyprus collector
In-Reply-To: <B755059A-2B60-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <B755059A-2B60-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <468D9FCE.7030802@wfu.edu>

The Cyprus Collector site has many scans of Cyprus-related woodcuts, 
engravings, and maps that might entertain anyone taking up /Bitter Lemons/.

Try this series for some moments after the arrival of the British:

    http://www.cypruscollector.net/ency1.html




Nice mustaches:




And here is a bit of that "Gothic" landscape:





And then visit the site itself:

    http://www.cypruscollector.net/


Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  5 18:50:41 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 18:50:41 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
Message-ID: <6910016.1183686642116.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

"Kubla Khan," l. 1:  "In Xanadu did Kubla Khan / A stately pleasure dome decree."  The allusion doesn't work for me, unless taken ironically, i.e., the final outcome being anything but.

Another hard nut:  "or on that of a Corvo, flitting like some huge fruit-bat down these light-bewitched alleys. . . . "  What's going on here?  Italian "corvo" = crow, raven.  Why the capital C?  Is it a place name?  Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both on the back of a crow flitting through the back alleys of Venice, prefiguring the Lord of the Rings?

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 5:37 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
>
>"Apparently the hotel was to be an echo of Coleridge" (last page of 
>"Towards an Eastern Landfall.")
>
>I assume it's the word "Dome" that sets off the echo. But why does 
>Durrell mention it?
>
>Bill
>***************************************
>W. L. Godshalk		*
>Department of English         *
>University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>513-281-5927
>***************************************
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Thu Jul  5 18:58:03 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 02:58:03 +0100
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
In-Reply-To: <6910016.1183686642116.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <54C0D71E-2B64-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Frederick Rolfe, Baron Corvo, The Quest for Corvo.

:Michael


On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:50  am, Bruce Redwine wrote:

> "Kubla Khan," l. 1:  "In Xanadu did Kubla Khan / A stately pleasure 
> dome decree."  The allusion doesn't work for me, unless taken 
> ironically, i.e., the final outcome being anything but.
>
> Another hard nut:  "or on that of a Corvo, flitting like some huge 
> fruit-bat down these light-bewitched alleys. . . . "  What's going on 
> here?  Italian "corvo" = crow, raven.  Why the capital C?  Is it a 
> place name?  Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both on the back of a crow 
> flitting through the back alleys of Venice, prefiguring the Lord of 
> the Rings?
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>> Sent: Jul 5, 2007 5:37 PM
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
>>
>> "Apparently the hotel was to be an echo of Coleridge" (last page of
>> "Towards an Eastern Landfall.")
>>
>> I assume it's the word "Dome" that sets off the echo. But why does
>> Durrell mention it?
>>
>> Bill
>> ***************************************
>> W. L. Godshalk		*
>> Department of English         *
>> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
>> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>> 513-281-5927
>> ***************************************
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Jul  5 18:56:16 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:56:16 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
In-Reply-To: <6910016.1183686642116.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.e
	arthlink.net>
References: <6910016.1183686642116.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070706015708.FLHQ15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

Bruce, it's a literary allusion which Charlie will explain -- because 
he knows more than I do about Corvo. The New York Review of Books 
Editions will provide you with hardcopy.

Bill


At 09:50 PM 7/5/2007, you wrote:
>"Kubla Khan," l. 1:  "In Xanadu did Kubla Khan / A stately pleasure 
>dome decree."  The allusion doesn't work for me, unless taken 
>ironically, i.e., the final outcome being anything but.
>
>Another hard nut:  "or on that of a Corvo, flitting like some huge 
>fruit-bat down these light-bewitched alleys. . . . "  What's going 
>on here?  Italian "corvo" = crow, raven.  Why the capital C?  Is it 
>a place name?  Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both on the back of a 
>crow flitting through the back alleys of Venice, prefiguring the 
>Lord of the Rings?
>
>Bruce
>
>-----Original Message-----
> >From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> >Sent: Jul 5, 2007 5:37 PM
> >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
> >
> >"Apparently the hotel was to be an echo of Coleridge" (last page of
> >"Towards an Eastern Landfall.")
> >
> >I assume it's the word "Dome" that sets off the echo. But why does
> >Durrell mention it?
> >
> >Bill
> >***************************************
> >W. L. Godshalk         *
> >Department of English         *
> >University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> >513-281-5927
> >***************************************
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >ILDS mailing list
> >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From slighcl at wfu.edu  Thu Jul  5 18:59:18 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:59:18 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Corvo
In-Reply-To: <6910016.1183686642116.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <6910016.1183686642116.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <468DA1F6.5050806@wfu.edu>

On 7/5/2007 9:50 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:

>
>Another hard nut:  "or on that of a Corvo, flitting like some huge fruit-bat down these light-bewitched alleys. . . . "  What's going on here?  Italian "corvo" = crow, raven.  Why the capital C?  Is it a place name?  Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both on the back of a crow flitting through the back alleys of Venice, prefiguring the Lord of the Rings?
>
Durrell is invoking Baron Corvo/Frederick Rolfe, Bruce. 

Read as much about and by Corvo as you can. 

    http://www.nybooks.com/nyrb/authors/7424

    http://www.nybooks.com/nyrb/book-search?q=symons

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Rolfe


The simile, which recalls Hunter Thompson's /Fear and Loathing/ for me, 
is in every way appropriate.  Bats for the batty!

Enjoy!

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  5 18:59:53 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 18:59:53 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- no women?
Message-ID: <16496829.1183687193343.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Jul  5 19:00:14 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:00:14 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
In-Reply-To: <54C0D71E-2B64-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <6910016.1183686642116.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<54C0D71E-2B64-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070706020117.FLUS15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  5 19:02:59 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 19:02:59 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
Message-ID: <11213799.1183687380125.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I prefer flying on the back of a corvo.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 6:58 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
>
>Frederick Rolfe, Baron Corvo, The Quest for Corvo.
>
>:Michael
>
>
>On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:50  am, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>> "Kubla Khan," l. 1:  "In Xanadu did Kubla Khan / A stately pleasure 
>> dome decree."  The allusion doesn't work for me, unless taken 
>> ironically, i.e., the final outcome being anything but.
>>
>> Another hard nut:  "or on that of a Corvo, flitting like some huge 
>> fruit-bat down these light-bewitched alleys. . . . "  What's going on 
>> here?  Italian "corvo" = crow, raven.  Why the capital C?  Is it a 
>> place name?  Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both on the back of a crow 
>> flitting through the back alleys of Venice, prefiguring the Lord of 
>> the Rings?
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>>> Sent: Jul 5, 2007 5:37 PM
>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
>>>
>>> "Apparently the hotel was to be an echo of Coleridge" (last page of
>>> "Towards an Eastern Landfall.")
>>>
>>> I assume it's the word "Dome" that sets off the echo. But why does
>>> Durrell mention it?
>>>
>>> Bill
>>> ***************************************
>>> W. L. Godshalk		*
>>> Department of English         *
>>> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
>>> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>>> 513-281-5927
>>> ***************************************
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Thu Jul  5 19:33:53 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:33:53 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- more corvo
In-Reply-To: <20070706015708.FLHQ15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <6910016.1183686642116.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<20070706015708.FLHQ15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <468DAA11.60702@wfu.edu>

On 7/5/2007 9:56 PM, william godshalk wrote:

>Bruce, it's a literary allusion which Charlie will explain -- because 
>he knows more than I do about Corvo. 
>
http://www.bouquinerie.com/catalogue/R/images/corvo.jpg

Well, where to begin?  Rolfe/Corvo might be best defined in Durrell's 
words:  he was one of those "/deeply wounded in his sex/."   If he had 
lived beyond his Venice years I can imagine him showing up in 
Alexandria.  He left a broken trail behind him and there was no 
returning.  Alexandria was the perfect climate for a "bankrupt" like him.

I suppose that Durrell is citing Corvo and having the bat-lark because 
Rolfe lived in Venice for a while by mooching and died there 
impoverished and bitterly paranoid after writing /The Desire and Pursuit 
of the Whol/e and his /Venice Letters/.   If you enjoy reading /fin de 
siecle/, Yellow-Bookish prose limning homosexual themes and 
crypto-catholic imagery--and who does not?--then these books might be 
for you. 

>     In August 1908 Rolfe left for Venice and never returned, living
>     out a kind of degenerate and vituperative envoi to his earlier
>     years. His squabbles with publishers and his vicious exploitation
>     of those who befriended him continued as before. He began to
>     compose detailed fantasies about mystic cults signed 'Frederick of
>     Venice', and embarked upon a series of sexual relationships with
>     adolescent boys. Don Renato appeared in 1909, but was immediately
>     suppressed. The Weird of the Wanderer, the last novel published in
>     his lifetime, was brought out in 1912 in collaboration with Harry
>     Pirie-Gordon. Rolfe then established residence at the Albergo
>     Cavaletto, where he died of a stroke on 26 October 1913. He was
>     unmarried, and his Venetian will left his estate to his brother,
>     Alfred, a schoolteacher in Australia, who was unable to claim it
>     for fear of creditors. The estate, consisting mostly of
>     'incriminating' letters, photos, and manuscripts, was confiscated
>     by the British consul, and most of it was destroyed. Rolfe was
>     buried on 30 October 1913 in a pauper's grave in San Michele
>     cemetery, Venice, where he was re-interred in 1924. His last
>     novel, a homoerotic fantasy, The Desire and the Pursuit of the
>     Whole, was published in 1934 to critical acclaim.
>
>     David Bradshaw [DNB]

Rolfe also claimed to have been adopted by the Duchess of 
Sforza-Cesarini--Durrell would have liked that name.  So would Pynchon.

/Hadrian the Seventh/ is a marvelous little fantasy novel--fantasy in 
the sense that it is Rolfe's own projection of how the priest he never 
could be finds himself suddenly tapped by the College of Cardinals and 
rising from obscurity to the Papacy.  Hilarious and moving, perhaps both 
at times, especially when Rolfe did not intend. 

Corvo's /Chronicles of the House of Borgias/ is something that I imagine 
Durrell reading.  That would be fit since Corvo himself was a magpie who 
liked taking up and making off with other folks' shiny prose and shiny 
coins.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=p7gNAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=inauthor:frederick+inauthor:rolfe&as_brr=1#PPR3,M1


And Symons's /Quest/, as Michael and Bill have said, is simply 
unavoidable for anyone interested in twentieth-century biography as a 
prose art.

http://www.studiocleo.com/librarie/rolfe/corvorolfe.html
http://www.studiocleo.com/librarie/rolfe/bibliography.html
http://www.giovannidallorto.com/saggistoria/rolfe/rolfe.html

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Thu Jul  5 20:00:12 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 04:00:12 +0100
Subject: [ilds] ugly women
Message-ID: <03A562B4-2B6D-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

We are told in these opening pages of Bitter Lemons of 'the unfolding 
of the Cyprus tragedy' (page 11) and, perhaps not unconnectedly, that 
the women are 'Very ugly ... Very ugly indeed' (page 17).  Later we are 
told (page 103) about 'Sir Harry meditating on the double-sexed 
Aphrodite whose priests wore beards and whose worshippers inverted 
their dress -- and wondering whether the extraordinary number of 
hermaphrodites on Cyprus did not betoken some forgotten race, bred for 
the service of the temple'.  Perhaps this explains much.  No numinous 
women for a start, only bearded EOKA terrorists.  The ugliness of 
Cypriot women, and the prevalence of hermaphroditism on the island, 
seem to be key themes in the Cyprus tragedy and deserving our 
discussion on this list.  Contributions by hermaphrodites and those of 
forgotten race would be especially welcome.

:Michael


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Thu Jul  5 20:14:15 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:14:15 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE
In-Reply-To: <468DAA11.60702@wfu.edu>
References: <6910016.1183686642116.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<20070706015708.FLHQ15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<468DAA11.60702@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <468DB387.7090305@wfu.edu>

Has anyone ever put forward a claim that Durrell's poetry from the 
1950s--/The Tree of Idleness/ &c.--is his strongest verse?

***

            Durrell, Lawrence:  A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE [from Collected
            Poems: 1931-1974 (1985), Faber and Faber]

            Zarian was saying: Florence is youth,
            And after it Ravenna, age,
            Then Venice, second-childhood.

            The pools of burning stone where time
            And water, the old siege-masters,
            Have run their saps beneath
            A thousand saddle-bridges,
            Puffed up by marble griffins drinking,

            [Page 214 ]

            And all set free to float on loops
            Of her canals like great intestines
            Now snapped off like a berg to float,
            Where now, like others, you have come alone,
            To trap your sunset in a yellow glass,
            And watch the silversmith at work
            Chasing the famous salver of the bay ...

            Here sense dissolves, combines to print only
            These bitten choirs of stone on water,
            To the rumble of old cloth bells,
            The cadging of confetti pigeons,
            A boatman singing from his long black coffin ...

            To all that has been said before
            You can add nothing, only that here,
            Thick as a brushstroke sleep has laid
            Its fleecy unconcern on every visage,

            At the bottom of every soul a spoonful of sleep.

            1955/1950



-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Jul  5 20:18:45 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:18:45 -0400
Subject: [ilds] ugly women
In-Reply-To: <03A562B4-2B6D-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <03A562B4-2B6D-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070706031958.FTJU15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Thu Jul  5 20:29:59 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 04:29:59 +0100
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE
In-Reply-To: <468DB387.7090305@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <2CF0C446-2B71-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Yes, you.

:Michael


On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 04:14  am, slighcl wrote:

> Has anyone ever put forward a claim that Durrell's poetry from the 
> 1950s--The Tree of Idleness &c.--is his strongest verse?
>
> ***
>
> Durrell, Lawrence:? A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE [from Collected Poems: 
> 1931-1974 (1985), Faber and Faber]
>
> Zarian was saying: Florence is youth,
> And after it Ravenna, age,
> Then Venice, second-childhood.
>
> The pools of burning stone where time
> And water, the old siege-masters,
> Have run their saps beneath
> A thousand saddle-bridges,
> Puffed up by marble griffins drinking,
>
> [Page 214 ]
>
> And all set free to float on loops
> Of her canals like great intestines
> Now snapped off like a berg to float,
> Where now, like others, you have come alone,
> To trap your sunset in a yellow glass,
> And watch the silversmith at work
> Chasing the famous salver of the bay ...
>
> Here sense dissolves, combines to print only
> These bitten choirs of stone on water,
> To the rumble of old cloth bells,
> The cadging of confetti pigeons,
> A boatman singing from his long black coffin ...
>
> To all that has been said before
> You can add nothing, only that here,
> Thick as a brushstroke sleep has laid
> Its fleecy unconcern on every visage,
>
> At the bottom of every soul a spoonful of sleep.
>
> 1955/1950
>
>
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Jul  5 20:36:23 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:36:23 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Women
In-Reply-To: <2bfc74100707051200o49deae93m619e7fe70078f996@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <14315828.1183646486335.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<2bfc74100707051200o49deae93m619e7fe70078f996@mail.gmail.com>
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Thu Jul  5 20:46:32 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 04:46:32 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Women
In-Reply-To: <20070706033745.FUQO15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <7C73BF4A-2B73-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

>

As though SHE has had Darley and done with him.  Nothing left to do but 
chase her immortal scent off across the plains of Asia in the next 
book.  Durrell and Miller adored SHE.  And so did Siggy Freud.

:Michael

>
> Yes, Darley is not a strong narrator, nor is he a strong character 
> within his own narrative. He tells us that he used to write and 
> publish. He does give lectures. He likes to read in Nessim and 
> Justine's library. Melissa comes to him, rather than he to her. 
> Justine like a hunting dog drags him home to Nessim. Now, he sits on 
> his island and writes about the past -- like a character in H. Ryder 
> Haggard.
>
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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Thu Jul  5 20:44:55 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:44:55 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE
In-Reply-To: <2CF0C446-2B71-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <2CF0C446-2B71-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <468DBAB7.9030306@wfu.edu>



On 7/5/2007 11:29 PM, Michael Haag wrote:

> Yes, you.
>
> :Michael
>
>
> On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 04:14 am, slighcl wrote:
>
>     Has anyone ever put forward a claim that Durrell's poetry from the
>     1950s--The Tree of Idleness &c.--is his strongest verse?
>
Okay.  Well I would be of course interested to hear from others.  
Perhaps I am assuming quite a bit--assuming, that is, that anyone out 
there reads the poetry as it was set into its original published 
presentations? 



Collected and Selected editions are fine and have a certain purpose.  
But give me /The Tree of Idleness/ late in the afternoon, and I "hear" 
Durrell there.  Again, perhaps that volume is stronger for me because it 
presents Durrell at a key conjunction, a special combination of 
bio-geographical moments (places and people lived and loved) and 
literary ambition.   But perhaps also because its poems are little 
staging grounds for the works that would follow post-1955.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  5 21:01:50 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 21:01:50 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] ugly women
Message-ID: <27879228.1183694510808.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Well, Michael, my comments aren't welcomed, but that won't stop me.  But yes, I think you're identified a major trope in Durrellian studies:  the feminine role in political activism.  It's now plain that Durrell is an unmitigated sexist:  women who abandon their traditional roles also abandon their feminine allure.  Look what happened to Justine after she went off to that kibbutz in Palestine.  She became what?  Some ill-groomed, grubby chicken plucker.  She cut her hair, butch style.  She also probably stopped shaving her legs and painting her nails.  She became so disgusting that LD couldn't bear to describe her in his main narrative.  That's what activism does to women.  Because of EOKA, Aphrodite of Amathus has fled Cyprus, her birthplace, and left it to the herms, harpies, and maenads (they're lurking under the flowers).  A prize to anyone who finds the numinous woman on Cyprus, circa 1953.

Bruce
 
-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 8:00 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] ugly women
>
>We are told in these opening pages of Bitter Lemons of 'the unfolding 
>of the Cyprus tragedy' (page 11) and, perhaps not unconnectedly, that 
>the women are 'Very ugly ... Very ugly indeed' (page 17).  Later we are 
>told (page 103) about 'Sir Harry meditating on the double-sexed 
>Aphrodite whose priests wore beards and whose worshippers inverted 
>their dress -- and wondering whether the extraordinary number of 
>hermaphrodites on Cyprus did not betoken some forgotten race, bred for 
>the service of the temple'.  Perhaps this explains much.  No numinous 
>women for a start, only bearded EOKA terrorists.  The ugliness of 
>Cypriot women, and the prevalence of hermaphroditism on the island, 
>seem to be key themes in the Cyprus tragedy and deserving our 
>discussion on this list.  Contributions by hermaphrodites and those of 
>forgotten race would be especially welcome.
>
>:Michael



From slighcl at wfu.edu  Thu Jul  5 21:01:33 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 00:01:33 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Meet Bob Montgomery
In-Reply-To: <7C73BF4A-2B73-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <7C73BF4A-2B73-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <468DBE9D.8040101@wfu.edu>

Meet Bob Montgomery.  He lived on Cyprus in the 1950s.  I rather like 
his old photos of all of these Durrellian locales in the 
1950s--especially since Bob took these shots right before or in the 
moment that Durrell was writing them up for /Bitter Lemons/ and making 
them "Durrellian."

        http://home.clara.net/bobmonty/index.html


Go read Bob's "A different time, a different place" essay and see all of 
his old photos. 

Here is something Bob meant as a prose disclaimer but which reads as a 
little poem.

>             This final part contains the remainder of my pictures.
>             Thus the answer to the question "Do I have any more ? " 
>             is  No.
>             Some of these seem more interesting than others.
>             There are pictures I do not remember taking.
>             Some I can only guess what they show.
>             And there are others I have absolutely no idea about.
>

I say thank you, Bob. 

Charles

***

        http://home.clara.net/bobmonty/cyprus55/cyprus55/cyprus55.HTM


Kyrenia Harbour





The Morris Minor




Kyrenia Mountains





Dome Hotel (back)



Bellapais



-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  5 21:18:55 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 21:18:55 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- cyprus collector
Message-ID: <10236198.1183695536165.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I rather like the woodcuts in Bitter Lemons.  A nice Crusader air.  But why didn't Durrell provide a map of the island?  One is much needed.  For example, when he lands at Limassol, the southern side of the island, I have no sense that the taxi drive traverses the fat part of the island to reach Kyrenia in the north, a journey of perhaps 100 miles.  I guess you could argue that all the ouzo shortens time and distance.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 6:50 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Cc: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>, Bill Godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- cyprus collector
>
>The Cyprus Collector site has many scans of Cyprus-related woodcuts, 
>engravings, and maps that might entertain anyone taking up /Bitter Lemons/.
>
>Try this series for some moments after the arrival of the British:
>
>    http://www.cypruscollector.net/ency1.html
>
>
>
>
>Nice mustaches:
>
>
>
>
>And here is a bit of that "Gothic" landscape:
>
>
>
>
>
>And then visit the site itself:
>
>    http://www.cypruscollector.net/
>
>
>Charles
>
>-- 
>**********************
>Charles L. Sligh
>Department of English
>Wake Forest University
>slighcl at wfu.edu
>**********************
>


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  5 21:35:09 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 21:35:09 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Males
Message-ID: <4726853.1183696509637.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  5 22:31:30 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 22:31:30 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Meet Bob Montgomery
Message-ID: <32973045.1183699891312.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

You're right, Charles.  Hats off to Bob Montgomery.  He could have been the model for Deeds of SC.  May his kind thrive.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 9:01 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Meet Bob Montgomery
>
>Meet Bob Montgomery.  He lived on Cyprus in the 1950s.  I rather like 
>his old photos of all of these Durrellian locales in the 
>1950s--especially since Bob took these shots right before or in the 
>moment that Durrell was writing them up for /Bitter Lemons/ and making 
>them "Durrellian."
>
>        http://home.clara.net/bobmonty/index.html
>
>
>Go read Bob's "A different time, a different place" essay and see all of 
>his old photos. 
>
>Here is something Bob meant as a prose disclaimer but which reads as a 
>little poem.
>
>>             This final part contains the remainder of my pictures.
>>             Thus the answer to the question "Do I have any more ? " 
>>             is  No.
>>             Some of these seem more interesting than others.
>>             There are pictures I do not remember taking.
>>             Some I can only guess what they show.
>>             And there are others I have absolutely no idea about.
>>
>
>I say thank you, Bob. 
>
>Charles
>
>***
>
>        http://home.clara.net/bobmonty/cyprus55/cyprus55/cyprus55.HTM
>
>
>Kyrenia Harbour
>
>
>
>
>
>The Morris Minor
>
>
>
>
>Kyrenia Mountains
>
>
>
>
>
>Dome Hotel (back)
>
>
>
>Bellapais
>
>
>
>-- 
>**********************
>Charles L. Sligh
>Department of English
>Wake Forest University
>slighcl at wfu.edu
>**********************
>


From sumantranag at gmail.com  Fri Jul  6 00:08:45 2007
From: sumantranag at gmail.com (Sumantra Nag)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 12:38:45 +0530
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 8
References: <mailman.2327.1183694608.643130.ilds@lists.uvic.ca>
Message-ID: <000f01c7bf9c$8125ccd0$0201a8c0@intel>

On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:50  am, Bruce Redwine wrote

"...Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both ..."

Stendhal has been mentioned somewhere as a "master" for Lawrence Durrell and 
references to the influence of Stendhal on Durrell have cropped up in 
writings whose references I cannot now recall. In particular there is a 
suggestion that Lawrence Durrell valued the practice of "writing fast" as 
Stendhal was reputed to have done.

Any illumination please, on the link between Durrell and Stendhal?

Sumantra

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 9:33 AM
Subject: ILDS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 8


> Send ILDS mailing list submissions to
> ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge (william godshalk)
>   2. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes (slighcl)
>   3. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes (Michael Haag)
>   4. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of Elizabeth Alicia Maria
>      Lewis (slighcl)
>   5. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of Elizabeth Alicia Maria
>      Lewis (Michael Haag)
>   6. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes (slighcl)
>   7. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes (william godshalk)
>   8. sexism (Michael Haag)
>   9. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- cyprus collector (slighcl)
>  10. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge (Bruce Redwine)
>  11. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge (Michael Haag)
>  12. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge (william godshalk)
>  13. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- Corvo (slighcl)
>  14. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- no women? (Bruce Redwine)
>  15. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge (william godshalk)
>  16. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge (Bruce Redwine)
>  17. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- more corvo (slighcl)
>  18. ugly women (Michael Haag)
>  19. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE (slighcl)
>  20. Re: ugly women (william godshalk)
>  21. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE (Michael Haag)
>  22. Re: Durrell's Women (william godshalk)
>  23. Re: Durrell's Women (Michael Haag)
>  24. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE (slighcl)
>  25. Re: ugly women (Bruce Redwine)
>  26. RG Bitter Lemons -- Meet Bob Montgomery (slighcl)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:11:40 -0400
> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID:
> <20070706011212.FGKA15819.gx6.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:18:32 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <468D9868.6050800 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> On 7/5/2007 8:59 PM, slighcl wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>     Lewis, Agnes Smith (1843-1926), Arabic and Syriac scholar and
>>     novelist, was born Agnes Smith on 16 April 1843 in Irvine,
>>     Ayrshire[. . . .]
>>
> Could someone more expert on Anglo-Cypriot relations confirm for me that
> this is "Mrs. Lewis"?
>
> Like Bill, I am looking at a bookdealer's description that tells me
>
>        A Lady's Impressions of Cyprus.
>        Lewis, Mrs. [Agnes, formerly Agnes Smith]
>        Bookseller: Bay Laurel Books
>        (Kent, LON, United Kingdom)     Price: US$ 1869.61
>
>
>        Book Description: Remington & Company, Limited., 1894.
>        Hardcover. Book Condition: Very Good. 1st Edition. First
>        edition. 8vo. pp. ix, 346; extending map frontis., 3 plates from
>        sketches; embrowning to endpapers, slight spotting to frontis.
>        and title, occasional pencil annotations, else a very good copy
>        in the original cloth, gilt, a little rubbed. Bookseller
>        Inventory # 000653
>
>
> But given that "Smith" and "Lewis" are not the most distinctive names to
> search out--too many!--I am worried we are at crossed-signals.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Charles
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 02:27:16 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <081EEBAD-2B60-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Not the same woman.  The author of A Lady's First etc was Elizabeth A M
> Lewis.
>
> :Michael
>
>
> On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:18  am, slighcl wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 7/5/2007 8:59 PM, slighcl wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Lewis, Agnes Smith (1843?1926), Arabic and Syriac scholar and
>> novelist, was born Agnes Smith on 16 April 1843 in Irvine, Ayrshire[.
>> . . .]
>>
>> Could someone more expert on Anglo-Cypriot relations confirm for me
>> that this is "Mrs. Lewis"?
>>
>> Like Bill, I am looking at a bookdealer's description that tells me
>>
>> A Lady's Impressions of Cyprus.
>> Lewis, Mrs. [Agnes, formerly Agnes Smith]
>> Bookseller: Bay Laurel Books
>> (Kent, LON, United Kingdom) ??? Price: US$ 1869.61
>>
>>
>> Book Description: Remington & Company, Limited., 1894. Hardcover. Book
>> Condition: Very Good. 1st Edition. First edition. 8vo. pp. ix, 346;
>> extending map frontis., 3 plates from sketches; embrowning to
>> endpapers, slight spotting to frontis. and title, occasional pencil
>> annotations, else a very good copy in the original cloth, gilt, a
>> little rubbed. Bookseller Inventory # 000653
>>
>>
>> But given that "Smith" and "Lewis" are not the most distinctive names
>> to search out--too many!--I am worried we are at crossed-signals.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> -- 
>> **********************
>> Charles L. Sligh
>> Department of English
>> Wake Forest University
>> slighcl at wfu.edu
>> **********************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:24:55 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of Elizabeth Alicia
> Maria Lewis
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <468D99E7.80800 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> No.  Wrong Lewis.  In WorldCat I find the following identification:
>
>    Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis
>
>
> And there I went trying to make into Mrs. Lewis an Orientalist scholar
> and founder of schools!
>
> But our Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis really did like Cyprus:
>
>    /The Templars in Cyprus :
>    a dramatic poem/ /
>
>    Friedrich Ludwig Zacharias Werner;  Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis
>    1886
>    English Book Book 262 p. ; 19 cm.
>    London : G. Bell and Sons.
>
>
> Self-correcting,
>
> Charles
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 02:32:10 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of Elizabeth Alicia
> Maria Lewis
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <B755059A-2B60-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Probably the source of Durrell's misinformation about the Templars on
> Cyprus.
>
> By the way, Elizabeth David's copy of A Lady's etc recently sold for
> ?460.  A snip.
>
> :Michael
>
>
>
> On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:24  am, slighcl wrote:
>
>> No.? Wrong Lewis.? In WorldCat I find the following identification:
>>
>> Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis
>>
>>
>> And there I went trying to make into Mrs. Lewis an Orientalist scholar
>> and founder of schools!
>>
>> But our Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis really did like Cyprus:
>>
>> The Templars in Cyprus :
>> a dramatic poem /
>>
>> Friedrich Ludwig Zacharias Werner;? Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis
>> 1886
>> English Book Book 262 p. ; 19 cm.
>> London : G. Bell and Sons.
>>
>>
>> Self-correcting,
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> -- 
>> **********************
>> Charles L. Sligh
>> Department of English
>> Wake Forest University
>> slighcl at wfu.edu
>> **********************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:34:12 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <468D9C14.8070606 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
>
>
> On 7/5/2007 9:27 PM, Michael Haag wrote:
>
>> Not the same woman. The author of A Lady's First etc was Elizabeth A M
>> Lewis.
>
> Thanks, Michael.
>
> An interesting instance of how one wrong record could have set me on to
> a false trail.  And that bookshop still is asking for US $2000 after
> misidentifying the author.
>
> Carefully, carefully.
>
> Charles
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:38:50 -0400
> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID:
> <20070706013912.YSVP3027.gx5.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 02:48:03 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: [ilds] sexism
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <EF35F296-2B62-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> A.  Why are so many men interested in Durrell studies, i.e. most of the
> respondents in the discussion group are male?  Is it because they are
> fascinated by Durrell's fantasy women and the world he creates around
> them?   - Anna Lillios
>
>> B.    As a member of the Durrell Society, the intent behind my
>> questioning of male readers' attraction to LD's femme fatales is to
>> figure out, in general, how to expand interest in Durrell studies--by
>> gender, race, age, etc--so that his works will survive through the
>> 21st century.  Every time I travel, I go to bookstores and always look
>> to see if his works are on the shelves.  I was recently in the Midwest
>> and didn't find his books, even at the U. of Iowa Bookstore.  I like
>> Bill's term, "diversity in the marketplace of ideas," but the big
>> question is how to create it.  I think we're beyond feeling "tant
>> pis."  - Anna Lillios
>
> Statement A is a sexist leading question.  Statement B seems to bare no
> relationship to statement A.  The proper answer, as I said before, is
> for women to make a greater contribution.
>
> :Michael
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:50:06 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- cyprus collector
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Cc: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>, Bill Godshalk
> <godshawl at EMAIL.UC.EDU>
> Message-ID: <468D9FCE.7030802 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> The Cyprus Collector site has many scans of Cyprus-related woodcuts,
> engravings, and maps that might entertain anyone taking up /Bitter 
> Lemons/.
>
> Try this series for some moments after the arrival of the British:
>
>    http://www.cypruscollector.net/ency1.html
>
>
>
>
> Nice mustaches:
>
>
>
>
> And here is a bit of that "Gothic" landscape:
>
>
>
>
>
> And then visit the site itself:
>
>    http://www.cypruscollector.net/
>
>
> Charles
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 18:50:41 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID:
> <6910016.1183686642116.JavaMail.root at elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> "Kubla Khan," l. 1:  "In Xanadu did Kubla Khan / A stately pleasure dome 
> decree."  The allusion doesn't work for me, unless taken ironically, i.e., 
> the final outcome being anything but.
>
> Another hard nut:  "or on that of a Corvo, flitting like some huge 
> fruit-bat down these light-bewitched alleys. . . . "  What's going on 
> here?  Italian "corvo" = crow, raven.  Why the capital C?  Is it a place 
> name?  Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both on the back of a crow flitting 
> through the back alleys of Venice, prefiguring the Lord of the Rings?
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 5:37 PM
>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
>>
>>"Apparently the hotel was to be an echo of Coleridge" (last page of
>>"Towards an Eastern Landfall.")
>>
>>I assume it's the word "Dome" that sets off the echo. But why does
>>Durrell mention it?
>>
>>Bill
>>***************************************
>>W. L. Godshalk *
>>Department of English         *
>>University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
>>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>>513-281-5927
>>***************************************
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ILDS mailing list
>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 02:58:03 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <54C0D71E-2B64-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> Frederick Rolfe, Baron Corvo, The Quest for Corvo.
>
> :Michael
>
>
> On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:50  am, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>> "Kubla Khan," l. 1:  "In Xanadu did Kubla Khan / A stately pleasure
>> dome decree."  The allusion doesn't work for me, unless taken
>> ironically, i.e., the final outcome being anything but.
>>
>> Another hard nut:  "or on that of a Corvo, flitting like some huge
>> fruit-bat down these light-bewitched alleys. . . . "  What's going on
>> here?  Italian "corvo" = crow, raven.  Why the capital C?  Is it a
>> place name?  Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both on the back of a crow
>> flitting through the back alleys of Venice, prefiguring the Lord of
>> the Rings?
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>>> Sent: Jul 5, 2007 5:37 PM
>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
>>>
>>> "Apparently the hotel was to be an echo of Coleridge" (last page of
>>> "Towards an Eastern Landfall.")
>>>
>>> I assume it's the word "Dome" that sets off the echo. But why does
>>> Durrell mention it?
>>>
>>> Bill
>>> ***************************************
>>> W. L. Godshalk *
>>> Department of English         *
>>> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
>>> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>>> 513-281-5927
>>> ***************************************
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:56:16 -0400
> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID:
> <20070706015708.FLHQ15819.gx6.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Bruce, it's a literary allusion which Charlie will explain -- because
> he knows more than I do about Corvo. The New York Review of Books
> Editions will provide you with hardcopy.
>
> Bill
>
>
> At 09:50 PM 7/5/2007, you wrote:
>>"Kubla Khan," l. 1:  "In Xanadu did Kubla Khan / A stately pleasure
>>dome decree."  The allusion doesn't work for me, unless taken
>>ironically, i.e., the final outcome being anything but.
>>
>>Another hard nut:  "or on that of a Corvo, flitting like some huge
>>fruit-bat down these light-bewitched alleys. . . . "  What's going
>>on here?  Italian "corvo" = crow, raven.  Why the capital C?  Is it
>>a place name?  Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both on the back of a
>>crow flitting through the back alleys of Venice, prefiguring the
>>Lord of the Rings?
>>
>>Bruce
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>> >From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>> >Sent: Jul 5, 2007 5:37 PM
>> >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> >Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
>> >
>> >"Apparently the hotel was to be an echo of Coleridge" (last page of
>> >"Towards an Eastern Landfall.")
>> >
>> >I assume it's the word "Dome" that sets off the echo. But why does
>> >Durrell mention it?
>> >
>> >Bill
>> >***************************************
>> >W. L. Godshalk         *
>> >Department of English         *
>> >University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
>> >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>> >513-281-5927
>> >***************************************
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >ILDS mailing list
>> >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ILDS mailing list
>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> ***************************************
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English         *
> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> 513-281-5927
> ***************************************
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:59:18 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Corvo
> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <468DA1F6.5050806 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On 7/5/2007 9:50 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>>
>>Another hard nut:  "or on that of a Corvo, flitting like some huge 
>>fruit-bat down these light-bewitched alleys. . . . "  What's going on 
>>here?  Italian "corvo" = crow, raven.  Why the capital C?  Is it a place 
>>name?  Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both on the back of a crow flitting 
>>through the back alleys of Venice, prefiguring the Lord of the Rings?
>>
> Durrell is invoking Baron Corvo/Frederick Rolfe, Bruce.
>
> Read as much about and by Corvo as you can.
>
>    http://www.nybooks.com/nyrb/authors/7424
>
>    http://www.nybooks.com/nyrb/book-search?q=symons
>
>    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Rolfe
>
>
> The simile, which recalls Hunter Thompson's /Fear and Loathing/ for me,
> is in every way appropriate.  Bats for the batty!
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Charles
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 18:59:53 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- no women?
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID:
> <16496829.1183687193343.JavaMail.root at elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>
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>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:00:14 -0400
> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID:
> <20070706020117.FLUS15819.gx6.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 19:02:59 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
> To: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>, Durrell list
> <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Message-ID:
> <11213799.1183687380125.JavaMail.root at elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> I prefer flying on the back of a corvo.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 6:58 PM
>>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
>>
>>Frederick Rolfe, Baron Corvo, The Quest for Corvo.
>>
>>:Michael
>>
>>
>>On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:50  am, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>
>>> "Kubla Khan," l. 1:  "In Xanadu did Kubla Khan / A stately pleasure
>>> dome decree."  The allusion doesn't work for me, unless taken
>>> ironically, i.e., the final outcome being anything but.
>>>
>>> Another hard nut:  "or on that of a Corvo, flitting like some huge
>>> fruit-bat down these light-bewitched alleys. . . . "  What's going on
>>> here?  Italian "corvo" = crow, raven.  Why the capital C?  Is it a
>>> place name?  Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both on the back of a crow
>>> flitting through the back alleys of Venice, prefiguring the Lord of
>>> the Rings?
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>>>> Sent: Jul 5, 2007 5:37 PM
>>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
>>>>
>>>> "Apparently the hotel was to be an echo of Coleridge" (last page of
>>>> "Towards an Eastern Landfall.")
>>>>
>>>> I assume it's the word "Dome" that sets off the echo. But why does
>>>> Durrell mention it?
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>> ***************************************
>>>> W. L. Godshalk *
>>>> Department of English         *
>>>> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
>>>> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>>>> 513-281-5927
>>>> ***************************************
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ILDS mailing list
>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:33:53 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- more corvo
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <468DAA11.60702 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On 7/5/2007 9:56 PM, william godshalk wrote:
>
>>Bruce, it's a literary allusion which Charlie will explain -- because
>>he knows more than I do about Corvo.
>>
> http://www.bouquinerie.com/catalogue/R/images/corvo.jpg
>
> Well, where to begin?  Rolfe/Corvo might be best defined in Durrell's
> words:  he was one of those "/deeply wounded in his sex/."   If he had
> lived beyond his Venice years I can imagine him showing up in
> Alexandria.  He left a broken trail behind him and there was no
> returning.  Alexandria was the perfect climate for a "bankrupt" like him.
>
> I suppose that Durrell is citing Corvo and having the bat-lark because
> Rolfe lived in Venice for a while by mooching and died there
> impoverished and bitterly paranoid after writing /The Desire and Pursuit
> of the Whol/e and his /Venice Letters/.   If you enjoy reading /fin de
> siecle/, Yellow-Bookish prose limning homosexual themes and
> crypto-catholic imagery--and who does not?--then these books might be
> for you.
>
>>     In August 1908 Rolfe left for Venice and never returned, living
>>     out a kind of degenerate and vituperative envoi to his earlier
>>     years. His squabbles with publishers and his vicious exploitation
>>     of those who befriended him continued as before. He began to
>>     compose detailed fantasies about mystic cults signed 'Frederick of
>>     Venice', and embarked upon a series of sexual relationships with
>>     adolescent boys. Don Renato appeared in 1909, but was immediately
>>     suppressed. The Weird of the Wanderer, the last novel published in
>>     his lifetime, was brought out in 1912 in collaboration with Harry
>>     Pirie-Gordon. Rolfe then established residence at the Albergo
>>     Cavaletto, where he died of a stroke on 26 October 1913. He was
>>     unmarried, and his Venetian will left his estate to his brother,
>>     Alfred, a schoolteacher in Australia, who was unable to claim it
>>     for fear of creditors. The estate, consisting mostly of
>>     'incriminating' letters, photos, and manuscripts, was confiscated
>>     by the British consul, and most of it was destroyed. Rolfe was
>>     buried on 30 October 1913 in a pauper's grave in San Michele
>>     cemetery, Venice, where he was re-interred in 1924. His last
>>     novel, a homoerotic fantasy, The Desire and the Pursuit of the
>>     Whole, was published in 1934 to critical acclaim.
>>
>>     David Bradshaw [DNB]
>
> Rolfe also claimed to have been adopted by the Duchess of
> Sforza-Cesarini--Durrell would have liked that name.  So would Pynchon.
>
> /Hadrian the Seventh/ is a marvelous little fantasy novel--fantasy in
> the sense that it is Rolfe's own projection of how the priest he never
> could be finds himself suddenly tapped by the College of Cardinals and
> rising from obscurity to the Papacy.  Hilarious and moving, perhaps both
> at times, especially when Rolfe did not intend.
>
> Corvo's /Chronicles of the House of Borgias/ is something that I imagine
> Durrell reading.  That would be fit since Corvo himself was a magpie who
> liked taking up and making off with other folks' shiny prose and shiny
> coins.
>
> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=p7gNAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=inauthor:frederick+inauthor:rolfe&as_brr=1#PPR3,M1
>
>
> And Symons's /Quest/, as Michael and Bill have said, is simply
> unavoidable for anyone interested in twentieth-century biography as a
> prose art.
>
> http://www.studiocleo.com/librarie/rolfe/corvorolfe.html
> http://www.studiocleo.com/librarie/rolfe/bibliography.html
> http://www.giovannidallorto.com/saggistoria/rolfe/rolfe.html
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 04:00:12 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: [ilds] ugly women
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <03A562B4-2B6D-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> We are told in these opening pages of Bitter Lemons of 'the unfolding
> of the Cyprus tragedy' (page 11) and, perhaps not unconnectedly, that
> the women are 'Very ugly ... Very ugly indeed' (page 17).  Later we are
> told (page 103) about 'Sir Harry meditating on the double-sexed
> Aphrodite whose priests wore beards and whose worshippers inverted
> their dress -- and wondering whether the extraordinary number of
> hermaphrodites on Cyprus did not betoken some forgotten race, bred for
> the service of the temple'.  Perhaps this explains much.  No numinous
> women for a start, only bearded EOKA terrorists.  The ugliness of
> Cypriot women, and the prevalence of hermaphroditism on the island,
> seem to be key themes in the Cyprus tragedy and deserving our
> discussion on this list.  Contributions by hermaphrodites and those of
> forgotten race would be especially welcome.
>
> :Michael
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:14:15 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <468DB387.7090305 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Has anyone ever put forward a claim that Durrell's poetry from the
> 1950s--/The Tree of Idleness/ &c.--is his strongest verse?
>
> ***
>
>            Durrell, Lawrence:  A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE [from Collected
>            Poems: 1931-1974 (1985), Faber and Faber]
>
>            Zarian was saying: Florence is youth,
>            And after it Ravenna, age,
>            Then Venice, second-childhood.
>
>            The pools of burning stone where time
>            And water, the old siege-masters,
>            Have run their saps beneath
>            A thousand saddle-bridges,
>            Puffed up by marble griffins drinking,
>
>            [Page 214 ]
>
>            And all set free to float on loops
>            Of her canals like great intestines
>            Now snapped off like a berg to float,
>            Where now, like others, you have come alone,
>            To trap your sunset in a yellow glass,
>            And watch the silversmith at work
>            Chasing the famous salver of the bay ...
>
>            Here sense dissolves, combines to print only
>            These bitten choirs of stone on water,
>            To the rumble of old cloth bells,
>            The cadging of confetti pigeons,
>            A boatman singing from his long black coffin ...
>
>            To all that has been said before
>            You can add nothing, only that here,
>            Thick as a brushstroke sleep has laid
>            Its fleecy unconcern on every visage,
>
>            At the bottom of every soul a spoonful of sleep.
>
>            1955/1950
>
>
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:18:45 -0400
> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID:
> <20070706031958.FTJU15819.gx6.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 04:29:59 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <2CF0C446-2B71-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Yes, you.
>
> :Michael
>
>
> On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 04:14  am, slighcl wrote:
>
>> Has anyone ever put forward a claim that Durrell's poetry from the
>> 1950s--The Tree of Idleness &c.--is his strongest verse?
>>
>> ***
>>
>> Durrell, Lawrence:? A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE [from Collected Poems:
>> 1931-1974 (1985), Faber and Faber]
>>
>> Zarian was saying: Florence is youth,
>> And after it Ravenna, age,
>> Then Venice, second-childhood.
>>
>> The pools of burning stone where time
>> And water, the old siege-masters,
>> Have run their saps beneath
>> A thousand saddle-bridges,
>> Puffed up by marble griffins drinking,
>>
>> [Page 214 ]
>>
>> And all set free to float on loops
>> Of her canals like great intestines
>> Now snapped off like a berg to float,
>> Where now, like others, you have come alone,
>> To trap your sunset in a yellow glass,
>> And watch the silversmith at work
>> Chasing the famous salver of the bay ...
>>
>> Here sense dissolves, combines to print only
>> These bitten choirs of stone on water,
>> To the rumble of old cloth bells,
>> The cadging of confetti pigeons,
>> A boatman singing from his long black coffin ...
>>
>> To all that has been said before
>> You can add nothing, only that here,
>> Thick as a brushstroke sleep has laid
>> Its fleecy unconcern on every visage,
>>
>> At the bottom of every soul a spoonful of sleep.
>>
>> 1955/1950
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> **********************
>> Charles L. Sligh
>> Department of English
>> Wake Forest University
>> slighcl at wfu.edu
>> **********************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:36:23 -0400
> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's Women
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID:
> <20070706033745.FUQO15819.gx6.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 04:46:32 +0100
> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's Women
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <7C73BF4A-2B73-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>>
>
> As though SHE has had Darley and done with him.  Nothing left to do but
> chase her immortal scent off across the plains of Asia in the next
> book.  Durrell and Miller adored SHE.  And so did Siggy Freud.
>
> :Michael
>
>>
>> Yes, Darley is not a strong narrator, nor is he a strong character
>> within his own narrative. He tells us that he used to write and
>> publish. He does give lectures. He likes to read in Nessim and
>> Justine's library. Melissa comes to him, rather than he to her.
>> Justine like a hunting dog drags him home to Nessim. Now, he sits on
>> his island and writes about the past -- like a character in H. Ryder
>> Haggard.
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:44:55 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <468DBAB7.9030306 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> On 7/5/2007 11:29 PM, Michael Haag wrote:
>
>> Yes, you.
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>> On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 04:14 am, slighcl wrote:
>>
>>     Has anyone ever put forward a claim that Durrell's poetry from the
>>     1950s--The Tree of Idleness &c.--is his strongest verse?
>>
> Okay.  Well I would be of course interested to hear from others.
> Perhaps I am assuming quite a bit--assuming, that is, that anyone out
> there reads the poetry as it was set into its original published
> presentations?
>
>
>
> Collected and Selected editions are fine and have a certain purpose.
> But give me /The Tree of Idleness/ late in the afternoon, and I "hear"
> Durrell there.  Again, perhaps that volume is stronger for me because it
> presents Durrell at a key conjunction, a special combination of
> bio-geographical moments (places and people lived and loved) and
> literary ambition.   But perhaps also because its poems are little
> staging grounds for the works that would follow post-1955.
>
> Charles
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 21:01:50 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
> From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID:
> <27879228.1183694510808.JavaMail.root at elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Well, Michael, my comments aren't welcomed, but that won't stop me.  But 
> yes, I think you're identified a major trope in Durrellian studies:  the 
> feminine role in political activism.  It's now plain that Durrell is an 
> unmitigated sexist:  women who abandon their traditional roles also 
> abandon their feminine allure.  Look what happened to Justine after she 
> went off to that kibbutz in Palestine.  She became what?  Some 
> ill-groomed, grubby chicken plucker.  She cut her hair, butch style.  She 
> also probably stopped shaving her legs and painting her nails.  She became 
> so disgusting that LD couldn't bear to describe her in his main narrative. 
> That's what activism does to women.  Because of EOKA, Aphrodite of Amathus 
> has fled Cyprus, her birthplace, and left it to the herms, harpies, and 
> maenads (they're lurking under the flowers).  A prize to anyone who finds 
> the numinous woman on Cyprus, circa 1953.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 8:00 PM
>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: [ilds] ugly women
>>
>>We are told in these opening pages of Bitter Lemons of 'the unfolding
>>of the Cyprus tragedy' (page 11) and, perhaps not unconnectedly, that
>>the women are 'Very ugly ... Very ugly indeed' (page 17).  Later we are
>>told (page 103) about 'Sir Harry meditating on the double-sexed
>>Aphrodite whose priests wore beards and whose worshippers inverted
>>their dress -- and wondering whether the extraordinary number of
>>hermaphrodites on Cyprus did not betoken some forgotten race, bred for
>>the service of the temple'.  Perhaps this explains much.  No numinous
>>women for a start, only bearded EOKA terrorists.  The ugliness of
>>Cypriot women, and the prevalence of hermaphroditism on the island,
>>seem to be key themes in the Cyprus tragedy and deserving our
>>discussion on this list.  Contributions by hermaphrodites and those of
>>forgotten race would be especially welcome.
>>
>>:Michael
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 26
> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 00:01:33 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Meet Bob Montgomery
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <468DBE9D.8040101 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Meet Bob Montgomery.  He lived on Cyprus in the 1950s.  I rather like
> his old photos of all of these Durrellian locales in the
> 1950s--especially since Bob took these shots right before or in the
> moment that Durrell was writing them up for /Bitter Lemons/ and making
> them "Durrellian."
>
>        http://home.clara.net/bobmonty/index.html
>
>
> Go read Bob's "A different time, a different place" essay and see all of
> his old photos.
>
> Here is something Bob meant as a prose disclaimer but which reads as a
> little poem.
>
>>             This final part contains the remainder of my pictures.
>>             Thus the answer to the question "Do I have any more ? "
>>             is  No.
>>             Some of these seem more interesting than others.
>>             There are pictures I do not remember taking.
>>             Some I can only guess what they show.
>>             And there are others I have absolutely no idea about.
>>
>
> I say thank you, Bob.
>
> Charles
>
> ***
>
>        http://home.clara.net/bobmonty/cyprus55/cyprus55/cyprus55.HTM
>
>
> Kyrenia Harbour
>
>
>
>
>
> The Morris Minor
>
>
>
>
> Kyrenia Mountains
>
>
>
>
>
> Dome Hotel (back)
>
>
>
> Bellapais
>
>
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
> End of ILDS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 8
> ********************************** 


From richardpin at eircom.net  Fri Jul  6 01:10:30 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:10:30 +0100
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
References: <6910016.1183686642116.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net><54C0D71E-2B64-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<20070706020117.FLUS15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <00b801c7bfa5$22f99700$708ce9d5@rpinelaptop>

Symons.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: william godshalk 
  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 3:00 AM
  Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge


  And remember A. J. A. Simmons who wrote Quest for Corvo.

  Bill

  At 09:58 PM 7/5/2007, you wrote:

    Frederick Rolfe, Baron Corvo, The Quest for Corvo.

    :Michael



  ***************************************
  W. L. Godshalk           *
  Department of English         *
  University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
  Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
  513-281-5927
  *************************************** 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  ILDS mailing list
  ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
  https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From richardpin at eircom.net  Fri Jul  6 01:15:11 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:15:11 +0100
Subject: [ilds] ugly women
References: <27879228.1183694510808.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00f701c7bfa5$c8d638e0$708ce9d5@rpinelaptop>

Marie Millington Drake was, apparently, very beautiful. She was also the 
author of at least 2 (unpublished) novels which are now in the LD collection 
at Carbondale - and she was the deceased muse who prompted his trip to 
Sicily - with disastrous literary results, as at least one member of this 
group will agree. RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 5:01 AM
Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women


> Well, Michael, my comments aren't welcomed, but that won't stop me.  But 
> yes, I think you're identified a major trope in Durrellian studies:  the 
> feminine role in political activism.  It's now plain that Durrell is an 
> unmitigated sexist:  women who abandon their traditional roles also 
> abandon their feminine allure.  Look what happened to Justine after she 
> went off to that kibbutz in Palestine.  She became what?  Some 
> ill-groomed, grubby chicken plucker.  She cut her hair, butch style.  She 
> also probably stopped shaving her legs and painting her nails.  She became 
> so disgusting that LD couldn't bear to describe her in his main narrative. 
> That's what activism does to women.  Because of EOKA, Aphrodite of Amathus 
> has fled Cyprus, her birthplace, and left it to the herms, harpies, and 
> maenads (they're lurking under the flowers).  A prize to anyone who finds 
> the numinous woman on Cyprus, circa 1953.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 8:00 PM
>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: [ilds] ugly women
>>
>>We are told in these opening pages of Bitter Lemons of 'the unfolding
>>of the Cyprus tragedy' (page 11) and, perhaps not unconnectedly, that
>>the women are 'Very ugly ... Very ugly indeed' (page 17).  Later we are
>>told (page 103) about 'Sir Harry meditating on the double-sexed
>>Aphrodite whose priests wore beards and whose worshippers inverted
>>their dress -- and wondering whether the extraordinary number of
>>hermaphrodites on Cyprus did not betoken some forgotten race, bred for
>>the service of the temple'.  Perhaps this explains much.  No numinous
>>women for a start, only bearded EOKA terrorists.  The ugliness of
>>Cypriot women, and the prevalence of hermaphroditism on the island,
>>seem to be key themes in the Cyprus tragedy and deserving our
>>discussion on this list.  Contributions by hermaphrodites and those of
>>forgotten race would be especially welcome.
>>
>>:Michael
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From Smithchamberlin at aol.com  Fri Jul  6 05:42:55 2007
From: Smithchamberlin at aol.com (Smithchamberlin at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 08:42:55 EDT
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 8
Message-ID: <be0.173b81c3.33bf92cf@aol.com>

 
Thanks, Charles. some of the images are marvelously evocative of the  time. 
If one had the time one might download the appropriate images, print  'em and 
insert them in the appropriate places in Bitter Lemons.
        Brewster
 
In a message dated 7/6/2007 1:02:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca writes:

Message:  26
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 00:01:33 -0400
From: slighcl  <slighcl at wfu.edu>
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Meet Bob  Montgomery
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Message-ID:  <468DBE9D.8040101 at wfu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="us-ascii"

Meet Bob Montgomery.  He lived on Cyprus in the  1950s.  I rather like 
his old photos of all of these Durrellian  locales in the 
1950s--especially since Bob took these shots right before  or in the 
moment that Durrell was writing them up for /Bitter Lemons/ and  making 
them "Durrellian."

http://home.clara.net/bobmonty/index.html


Go read Bob's "A  different time, a different place" essay and see all of 
his old photos.  

Here is something Bob meant as a prose disclaimer but which reads as a  
little poem.

>              This final part contains the remainder of my pictures.
>     Thus the answer to the question "Do I have  any more ? " 
>             is   No.
>             Some of these seem  more interesting than others.
>           There are pictures I do not remember taking.
>     Some I can only guess what they  show.
>             And there are  others I have absolutely no idea about.
>

I say thank you, Bob.  

Charles

***

http://home.clara.net/bobmonty/cyprus55/cyprus55/cyprus55.HTM







************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Fri Jul  6 06:33:50 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 14:33:50 +0100
Subject: [ilds] ugly women
In-Reply-To: <00f701c7bfa5$c8d638e0$708ce9d5@rpinelaptop>
Message-ID: <87C2406D-2BC5-11DC-A0CA-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

But Marie Millington Drake was not a Cypriot.  All Cypriot women are 
ugly, we are told.  And the island is infested with hermaphrodites, 
which I do not think Marie was either.

:Michael




On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 09:15  am, Richard Pine wrote:

> Marie Millington Drake was, apparently, very beautiful. She was also 
> the
> author of at least 2 (unpublished) novels which are now in the LD 
> collection
> at Carbondale - and she was the deceased muse who prompted his trip to
> Sicily - with disastrous literary results, as at least one member of 
> this
> group will agree. RP
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 5:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>
>
>> Well, Michael, my comments aren't welcomed, but that won't stop me.  
>> But
>> yes, I think you're identified a major trope in Durrellian studies:  
>> the
>> feminine role in political activism.  It's now plain that Durrell is 
>> an
>> unmitigated sexist:  women who abandon their traditional roles also
>> abandon their feminine allure.  Look what happened to Justine after 
>> she
>> went off to that kibbutz in Palestine.  She became what?  Some
>> ill-groomed, grubby chicken plucker.  She cut her hair, butch style.  
>> She
>> also probably stopped shaving her legs and painting her nails.  She 
>> became
>> so disgusting that LD couldn't bear to describe her in his main 
>> narrative.
>> That's what activism does to women.  Because of EOKA, Aphrodite of 
>> Amathus
>> has fled Cyprus, her birthplace, and left it to the herms, harpies, 
>> and
>> maenads (they're lurking under the flowers).  A prize to anyone who 
>> finds
>> the numinous woman on Cyprus, circa 1953.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>> Sent: Jul 5, 2007 8:00 PM
>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> Subject: [ilds] ugly women
>>>
>>> We are told in these opening pages of Bitter Lemons of 'the unfolding
>>> of the Cyprus tragedy' (page 11) and, perhaps not unconnectedly, that
>>> the women are 'Very ugly ... Very ugly indeed' (page 17).  Later we 
>>> are
>>> told (page 103) about 'Sir Harry meditating on the double-sexed
>>> Aphrodite whose priests wore beards and whose worshippers inverted
>>> their dress -- and wondering whether the extraordinary number of
>>> hermaphrodites on Cyprus did not betoken some forgotten race, bred 
>>> for
>>> the service of the temple'.  Perhaps this explains much.  No numinous
>>> women for a start, only bearded EOKA terrorists.  The ugliness of
>>> Cypriot women, and the prevalence of hermaphroditism on the island,
>>> seem to be key themes in the Cyprus tragedy and deserving our
>>> discussion on this list.  Contributions by hermaphrodites and those 
>>> of
>>> forgotten race would be especially welcome.
>>>
>>> :Michael
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  6 06:55:43 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 06:55:43 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] ugly women
Message-ID: <13136237.1183730144338.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Is M. M. Drake in the story?  Numinous women outside the narrative don't count.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 6, 2007 6:33 AM
>To: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>
>But Marie Millington Drake was not a Cypriot.  All Cypriot women are 
>ugly, we are told.  And the island is infested with hermaphrodites, 
>which I do not think Marie was either.
>
>:Michael
>
>
>
>
>On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 09:15  am, Richard Pine wrote:
>
>> Marie Millington Drake was, apparently, very beautiful. She was also 
>> the
>> author of at least 2 (unpublished) novels which are now in the LD 
>> collection
>> at Carbondale - and she was the deceased muse who prompted his trip to
>> Sicily - with disastrous literary results, as at least one member of 
>> this
>> group will agree. RP
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 5:01 AM
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>>
>>
>>> Well, Michael, my comments aren't welcomed, but that won't stop me.  
>>> But
>>> yes, I think you're identified a major trope in Durrellian studies:  
>>> the
>>> feminine role in political activism.  It's now plain that Durrell is 
>>> an
>>> unmitigated sexist:  women who abandon their traditional roles also
>>> abandon their feminine allure.  Look what happened to Justine after 
>>> she
>>> went off to that kibbutz in Palestine.  She became what?  Some
>>> ill-groomed, grubby chicken plucker.  She cut her hair, butch style.  
>>> She
>>> also probably stopped shaving her legs and painting her nails.  She 
>>> became
>>> so disgusting that LD couldn't bear to describe her in his main 
>>> narrative.
>>> That's what activism does to women.  Because of EOKA, Aphrodite of 
>>> Amathus
>>> has fled Cyprus, her birthplace, and left it to the herms, harpies, 
>>> and
>>> maenads (they're lurking under the flowers).  A prize to anyone who 
>>> finds
>>> the numinous woman on Cyprus, circa 1953.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>>> Sent: Jul 5, 2007 8:00 PM
>>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> Subject: [ilds] ugly women
>>>>
>>>> We are told in these opening pages of Bitter Lemons of 'the unfolding
>>>> of the Cyprus tragedy' (page 11) and, perhaps not unconnectedly, that
>>>> the women are 'Very ugly ... Very ugly indeed' (page 17).  Later we 
>>>> are
>>>> told (page 103) about 'Sir Harry meditating on the double-sexed
>>>> Aphrodite whose priests wore beards and whose worshippers inverted
>>>> their dress -- and wondering whether the extraordinary number of
>>>> hermaphrodites on Cyprus did not betoken some forgotten race, bred 
>>>> for
>>>> the service of the temple'.  Perhaps this explains much.  No numinous
>>>> women for a start, only bearded EOKA terrorists.  The ugliness of
>>>> Cypriot women, and the prevalence of hermaphroditism on the island,
>>>> seem to be key themes in the Cyprus tragedy and deserving our
>>>> discussion on this list.  Contributions by hermaphrodites and those 
>>>> of
>>>> forgotten race would be especially welcome.
>>>>
>>>> :Michael



From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Fri Jul  6 07:01:52 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:01:52 +0100
Subject: [ilds] ugly women
In-Reply-To: <13136237.1183730144338.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <72C9D884-2BC9-11DC-A0CA-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

She gets mentioned in passing.  So does his 'daughter', but no mother 
is mentioned -- again, a man on an island with an unexplained little 
girl.  He is far more forthcoming about the hermaphrodites.

:Michael


On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:55  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:

> Is M. M. Drake in the story?  Numinous women outside the narrative 
> don't count.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>> Sent: Jul 6, 2007 6:33 AM
>> To: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>>
>> But Marie Millington Drake was not a Cypriot.  All Cypriot women are
>> ugly, we are told.  And the island is infested with hermaphrodites,
>> which I do not think Marie was either.
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 09:15  am, Richard Pine wrote:
>>
>>> Marie Millington Drake was, apparently, very beautiful. She was also
>>> the
>>> author of at least 2 (unpublished) novels which are now in the LD
>>> collection
>>> at Carbondale - and she was the deceased muse who prompted his trip 
>>> to
>>> Sicily - with disastrous literary results, as at least one member of
>>> this
>>> group will agree. RP
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 5:01 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>>>
>>>
>>>> Well, Michael, my comments aren't welcomed, but that won't stop me.
>>>> But
>>>> yes, I think you're identified a major trope in Durrellian studies:
>>>> the
>>>> feminine role in political activism.  It's now plain that Durrell is
>>>> an
>>>> unmitigated sexist:  women who abandon their traditional roles also
>>>> abandon their feminine allure.  Look what happened to Justine after
>>>> she
>>>> went off to that kibbutz in Palestine.  She became what?  Some
>>>> ill-groomed, grubby chicken plucker.  She cut her hair, butch style.
>>>> She
>>>> also probably stopped shaving her legs and painting her nails.  She
>>>> became
>>>> so disgusting that LD couldn't bear to describe her in his main
>>>> narrative.
>>>> That's what activism does to women.  Because of EOKA, Aphrodite of
>>>> Amathus
>>>> has fled Cyprus, her birthplace, and left it to the herms, harpies,
>>>> and
>>>> maenads (they're lurking under the flowers).  A prize to anyone who
>>>> finds
>>>> the numinous woman on Cyprus, circa 1953.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>>>> Sent: Jul 5, 2007 8:00 PM
>>>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>> Subject: [ilds] ugly women
>>>>>
>>>>> We are told in these opening pages of Bitter Lemons of 'the 
>>>>> unfolding
>>>>> of the Cyprus tragedy' (page 11) and, perhaps not unconnectedly, 
>>>>> that
>>>>> the women are 'Very ugly ... Very ugly indeed' (page 17).  Later we
>>>>> are
>>>>> told (page 103) about 'Sir Harry meditating on the double-sexed
>>>>> Aphrodite whose priests wore beards and whose worshippers inverted
>>>>> their dress -- and wondering whether the extraordinary number of
>>>>> hermaphrodites on Cyprus did not betoken some forgotten race, bred
>>>>> for
>>>>> the service of the temple'.  Perhaps this explains much.  No 
>>>>> numinous
>>>>> women for a start, only bearded EOKA terrorists.  The ugliness of
>>>>> Cypriot women, and the prevalence of hermaphroditism on the island,
>>>>> seem to be key themes in the Cyprus tragedy and deserving our
>>>>> discussion on this list.  Contributions by hermaphrodites and those
>>>>> of
>>>>> forgotten race would be especially welcome.
>>>>>
>>>>> :Michael
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  6 07:09:00 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 07:09:00 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] ugly women
Message-ID: <12177861.1183730941141.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Well, "in passing" doesn't count either.  M. M. Drake can't qualify as a numinous woman.  A few guidelines should be laid down for the "numinous woman."  I suggested that she be

1.  beautiful
2.  elusive
3.  ubiquitous
4.  a "real presence" (G. Steiner).

Other qualities welcomed.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 6, 2007 7:01 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>
>She gets mentioned in passing.  So does his 'daughter', but no mother 
>is mentioned -- again, a man on an island with an unexplained little 
>girl.  He is far more forthcoming about the hermaphrodites.
>
>:Michael
>
>
>On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:55  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>> Is M. M. Drake in the story?  Numinous women outside the narrative 
>> don't count.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>> Sent: Jul 6, 2007 6:33 AM
>>> To: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>>>
>>> But Marie Millington Drake was not a Cypriot.  All Cypriot women are
>>> ugly, we are told.  And the island is infested with hermaphrodites,
>>> which I do not think Marie was either.
>>>
>>> :Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 09:15  am, Richard Pine wrote:
>>>
>>>> Marie Millington Drake was, apparently, very beautiful. She was also
>>>> the
>>>> author of at least 2 (unpublished) novels which are now in the LD
>>>> collection
>>>> at Carbondale - and she was the deceased muse who prompted his trip 
>>>> to
>>>> Sicily - with disastrous literary results, as at least one member of
>>>> this
>>>> group will agree. RP
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 5:01 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Well, Michael, my comments aren't welcomed, but that won't stop me.
>>>>> But
>>>>> yes, I think you're identified a major trope in Durrellian studies:
>>>>> the
>>>>> feminine role in political activism.  It's now plain that Durrell is
>>>>> an
>>>>> unmitigated sexist:  women who abandon their traditional roles also
>>>>> abandon their feminine allure.  Look what happened to Justine after
>>>>> she
>>>>> went off to that kibbutz in Palestine.  She became what?  Some
>>>>> ill-groomed, grubby chicken plucker.  She cut her hair, butch style.
>>>>> She
>>>>> also probably stopped shaving her legs and painting her nails.  She
>>>>> became
>>>>> so disgusting that LD couldn't bear to describe her in his main
>>>>> narrative.
>>>>> That's what activism does to women.  Because of EOKA, Aphrodite of
>>>>> Amathus
>>>>> has fled Cyprus, her birthplace, and left it to the herms, harpies,
>>>>> and
>>>>> maenads (they're lurking under the flowers).  A prize to anyone who
>>>>> finds
>>>>> the numinous woman on Cyprus, circa 1953.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Jul 5, 2007 8:00 PM
>>>>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>>> Subject: [ilds] ugly women
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are told in these opening pages of Bitter Lemons of 'the 
>>>>>> unfolding
>>>>>> of the Cyprus tragedy' (page 11) and, perhaps not unconnectedly, 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> the women are 'Very ugly ... Very ugly indeed' (page 17).  Later we
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> told (page 103) about 'Sir Harry meditating on the double-sexed
>>>>>> Aphrodite whose priests wore beards and whose worshippers inverted
>>>>>> their dress -- and wondering whether the extraordinary number of
>>>>>> hermaphrodites on Cyprus did not betoken some forgotten race, bred
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> the service of the temple'.  Perhaps this explains much.  No 
>>>>>> numinous
>>>>>> women for a start, only bearded EOKA terrorists.  The ugliness of
>>>>>> Cypriot women, and the prevalence of hermaphroditism on the island,
>>>>>> seem to be key themes in the Cyprus tragedy and deserving our
>>>>>> discussion on this list.  Contributions by hermaphrodites and those
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> forgotten race would be especially welcome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :Michael
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Jul  6 07:20:57 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:20:57 -0400
Subject: [ilds] bob montgomery's photos of cyprus
In-Reply-To: <be0.173b81c3.33bf92cf@aol.com>
References: <be0.173b81c3.33bf92cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <468E4FC9.3020901@wfu.edu>

On 7/6/2007 8:42 AM, Smithchamberlin at aol.com wrote:

> Thanks, Charles. some of the images are marvelously evocative of the 
> time. If one had the time one might download the appropriate images, 
> print 'em and insert them in the appropriate places in Bitter Lemons.
>         Brewster

My pleasure, Brewster.

I have not been back to read /Bitter Lemons/ in many years.  So far I am 
enjoying the moments of remembrance and surprise.  And then Bob 
Montgomery springs up and shows us these wonderful black & white 
glimpses of a world now gone a great while. 

On that same site Bob has plenty of other interesting accounts and 
pictures of his service years--being called up, taking a holiday in 
1950s Turkey, &c.  Readers experience something uncanny while reading 
all of this extensive, detailed reminisce written by someone about whom 
they know nothing else.

I had written about things "exploding."  Note Bob's pictures of 
buildings post-explosion.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Jul  6 07:27:25 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:27:25 -0400
Subject: [ilds] A CHRONOLOGY OF THE LIFE AND TIMES OF LAWRENCE DURRELL
In-Reply-To: <12177861.1183730941141.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <12177861.1183730941141.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <468E514D.6040704@wfu.edu>

THE DURRELL SCHOOL OF CORFU

is pleased to announce the publication of

*A CHRONOLOGY OF THE LIFE AND TIMES OF LAWRENCE DURRELL
Homme de Lettres

by

BREWSTER CHAMBERLIN*

Advance comments on this valuable and entertaining book:

Dr Chamberlin has written a superb time line and literary history. It 
contains a careful and marvelously complete charting, not only of 
Lawrence Durrell's place within 20th Century literature but of the 20th 
Century itself. The listing of biographical, literary, social, and 
historical correspondences is both imaginative and insightful and 
produces a volume both convenient for the casual reader and essential 
for the serious scholar.

James R. Nichols, Emeritus Professor and English Department             
           
Chair Georgia Southern University, Chairman of the                        
Durrell School of Corfu Board of Directors, and published author.
 


"This Chronology of Lawrence Durrell will not only be of great 
assistance to scholars of the writer, in charting his day-to-day or 
month-to-month activities, but will also enlighten them - and the less 
specialised reader - as to the moods, preoccupations and anxieties of a 
writer's life. Brewster Chamberlin has an extensive knowledge and 
appreciation of the arts in Europe and America, and brings this special 
insight to his account of Durrell's wide-ranging interests in painting, 
philosophy, politics as well as his bonhomie and general characteristic 
ability to cope with (most of) the triumphs and tribulations of an 
artist's life. The links to the lives of his mother, siblings, wives and 
children, and to the international context of literature, are especially 
valuable in placing Durrell within that context, while giving us a 
unique scenario for the work of creativity that was the centre of his life."
           
Richard Pine, Director Emeritus, Durrell School of Corfu and author of 
Lawrence Durrell: The Mindscape (2005)



"Chamberlin's LD Chronology is a fascinating chronicle of times 
Durrellian and times macrocosmic.  If you know anything about Brewster 
you know that part of his genius is the ability to truffle out the 
hidden morsel of fact and to present it in an engaging manner.  He has 
made an impressive compilation of both the essential events and many of 
the small but significant way-posts of Durrell's life, and has set them 
in juxtaposition with the world personalities and happenings of the 
twentieth century.  This book is at once an engaging read and an 
essential companion for the serious Durrell scholar."
           
Ian MacNiven, author of Lawrence Durrell. A Biography (1998)



*To order:
   
In North America send a check payable to Lynn-Marie Smith in the amount 
of US$15.00 (includes postage and handling) at PO Box 490, Key West FL 
33041.

In the rest of the world send a check payable to the Durrell School of 
Corfu in the amount of EUR12.00 (includes postage and handling) to the 
Durrell School of Corfu, PO Box 94, 49100 Corfu, Greece.*


-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Fri Jul  6 07:38:42 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:38:42 +0100
Subject: [ilds] ugly women
In-Reply-To: <12177861.1183730941141.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <97A6D5E4-2BCE-11DC-A281-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

The hermaphrodites of Cyprus meet three out of four of those points.  I 
am excluding number one, ie beautiful, but then I do not know that; 
Durrell does not specifically say whether the hermaphrodites of Cyprus 
are beautiful or not.  I suppose it is a matter of taste, of which the 
Cypriots themselves are the best judges.

:Michael


On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 03:09  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:

> Well, "in passing" doesn't count either.  M. M. Drake can't qualify as 
> a numinous woman.  A few guidelines should be laid down for the 
> "numinous woman."  I suggested that she be
>
> 1.  beautiful
> 2.  elusive
> 3.  ubiquitous
> 4.  a "real presence" (G. Steiner).
>
> Other qualities welcomed.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>> Sent: Jul 6, 2007 7:01 AM
>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>>
>> She gets mentioned in passing.  So does his 'daughter', but no mother
>> is mentioned -- again, a man on an island with an unexplained little
>> girl.  He is far more forthcoming about the hermaphrodites.
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>> On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:55  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>
>>> Is M. M. Drake in the story?  Numinous women outside the narrative
>>> don't count.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>>> Sent: Jul 6, 2007 6:33 AM
>>>> To: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>>>>
>>>> But Marie Millington Drake was not a Cypriot.  All Cypriot women are
>>>> ugly, we are told.  And the island is infested with hermaphrodites,
>>>> which I do not think Marie was either.
>>>>
>>>> :Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 09:15  am, Richard Pine wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Marie Millington Drake was, apparently, very beautiful. She was 
>>>>> also
>>>>> the
>>>>> author of at least 2 (unpublished) novels which are now in the LD
>>>>> collection
>>>>> at Carbondale - and she was the deceased muse who prompted his trip
>>>>> to
>>>>> Sicily - with disastrous literary results, as at least one member 
>>>>> of
>>>>> this
>>>>> group will agree. RP
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>>> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 5:01 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, Michael, my comments aren't welcomed, but that won't stop 
>>>>>> me.
>>>>>> But
>>>>>> yes, I think you're identified a major trope in Durrellian 
>>>>>> studies:
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> feminine role in political activism.  It's now plain that Durrell 
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> unmitigated sexist:  women who abandon their traditional roles 
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> abandon their feminine allure.  Look what happened to Justine 
>>>>>> after
>>>>>> she
>>>>>> went off to that kibbutz in Palestine.  She became what?  Some
>>>>>> ill-groomed, grubby chicken plucker.  She cut her hair, butch 
>>>>>> style.
>>>>>> She
>>>>>> also probably stopped shaving her legs and painting her nails.  
>>>>>> She
>>>>>> became
>>>>>> so disgusting that LD couldn't bear to describe her in his main
>>>>>> narrative.
>>>>>> That's what activism does to women.  Because of EOKA, Aphrodite of
>>>>>> Amathus
>>>>>> has fled Cyprus, her birthplace, and left it to the herms, 
>>>>>> harpies,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> maenads (they're lurking under the flowers).  A prize to anyone 
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> finds
>>>>>> the numinous woman on Cyprus, circa 1953.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Jul 5, 2007 8:00 PM
>>>>>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>>>> Subject: [ilds] ugly women
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We are told in these opening pages of Bitter Lemons of 'the
>>>>>>> unfolding
>>>>>>> of the Cyprus tragedy' (page 11) and, perhaps not unconnectedly,
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> the women are 'Very ugly ... Very ugly indeed' (page 17).  Later 
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> told (page 103) about 'Sir Harry meditating on the double-sexed
>>>>>>> Aphrodite whose priests wore beards and whose worshippers 
>>>>>>> inverted
>>>>>>> their dress -- and wondering whether the extraordinary number of
>>>>>>> hermaphrodites on Cyprus did not betoken some forgotten race, 
>>>>>>> bred
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> the service of the temple'.  Perhaps this explains much.  No
>>>>>>> numinous
>>>>>>> women for a start, only bearded EOKA terrorists.  The ugliness of
>>>>>>> Cypriot women, and the prevalence of hermaphroditism on the 
>>>>>>> island,
>>>>>>> seem to be key themes in the Cyprus tragedy and deserving our
>>>>>>> discussion on this list.  Contributions by hermaphrodites and 
>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> forgotten race would be especially welcome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> :Michael
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From gifford at uvic.ca  Fri Jul  6 08:29:45 2007
From: gifford at uvic.ca (James Gifford)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:29:45 -0600
Subject: [ilds] ugly women
In-Reply-To: <12177861.1183730941141.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <12177861.1183730941141.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <2bfc74100707060829l77c08c0bs32dc2ccf399bb0e0@mail.gmail.com>

I've been counting the days for how long it would take for _Bitter
Lemons_ to take us back to Darley on his Greek island with the
child...  The combination of Durrell's "study of bisexuality" for
_Justine_ and the hermaphroditism in _Bitter Lemons_ is also striking.
 While we would consider the association a misnomber by our
contemporary standards, let's not forget that with his psychoanalytic
materials (some good and some just plain silly, but usually adopted to
good effect for the plot), Durrell would have seen hermaphrodites and
bisexuals as plausibly related, at least notionally.

I'm curious, though, if anyone has been itching to go back to those
epigrams?  How do we reconcile:

"This is not a political book..."
"A race advancing on the east must begin with Cyprus..."
  and
"Towards an Eastern Landfall"

Has Durrell not, in effect, placed himself as the invader through this
juxtaposition when he quotes Hepworth Dixon?  Moreover, that epigram
ends with a mention of the Suez Canal, which again brought Cyprus back
to the fore as a site of strategic military control.  I'm sure that
the Suez Crisis of 1956 would not have been noticed by Durrell or any
contemporary readers...  (yes, that's ironic).

I know Michael disagrees with my reading of "Oil for the Saint," but
I've always been drawn to Durrell political sensibilities, which he
often denied but seems to have always had -- on the surface, Durrell
may be keen to suggest Bitter Lemons "is not a political book," but
running through every stage of the narrative, those politics are poked
and prodded in odd word choices, epigrams, juxtapositions, and
unlikely word repetitions.  I see that happening quite a bit in the
unlikely places, such as cute little short stories for tourist
magazines.

Next to those things, I think the gender issues in _Bitter Lemons_
start to adopt a broader and more figurative context.  That comment
isn't meant to dismiss the problems with gender in Durrell's works (or
in his letters, and our Aussie friends have pointed out), but just to
note that within a carefully reworked piece the descriptions are more
likely to take on literary qualities than the likely quickly written
comments in a letter, which might also reflect frustrations of the
moment for a specific situation but expressed in more general terms.
I suspect that tension is behind many of the unsavoury comments in
Durrell's letters -- it's likely not the case in his comments to
Miller about women, but I've also often seen a letter's meaning change
radically once I read the text that sat parallel to it on Old D's
desk.

At any rate, the new Faber edition has restored the title to _Bitter
Lemons of Cyprus_, so the namesake is again emphasized.  I know the
lemons are indigenous, but there are some odd transplantations in this
text as well...  I think we'll have much to talk about for that a
little later on.

But, back to work...

Best,
James

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  6 10:07:58 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 10:07:58 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- tall & well-made,
	fond of ease & pleasure
Message-ID: <18567376.1183741678458.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Charles, tastes have changed since the days of Rossetti and his crowd.  I think the assessment of the cabin-steward from Bolgona still holds.  Italians know about these matters.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Jul 6, 2007 8:11 AM
>To: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>, bredwine1968 at earthlink.net
>Subject: RG Bitter Lemons -- tall & well-made, fond of ease & pleasure
>
>Counter-evidence from a secret source.
>
>Rossetti died in 1882. 
>
>Lord Leighton was President of the Royal Academy. 
>
>Thus we see a certain post-Pre-Raphaelite, Aesthetic imagining of 
>Cypriot beauty.
>
>    http://www.cypruscollector.net/ency32.html
>
>
>*Engravings: Cyprus Page 32*
>
>*32. A Princess of Cyprus. 1882. 23.5x32 cms. Das Buch fur Ulle. German 
>text on verso." The Cypriotes are tall and well made; the women being 
>considered very handsome and graceful, though somewhat inclined to 
>corpulency (means paxoules) .They make free use of cosmetics, dye their 
>hair and eyebrows with 'henna', and wear dresses of the most brilliant 
>colours, with a profusion of gold coins, chains and trinkets..... They 
>are said to be extremely indolent and voluptuous, and to retain their 
>youthful appearance until forty and fifty years old; and they very 
>frequently remarry after they become grandmothers (ediavases to touto 
>kori?). Both sexes are fond of ease and pleasure ; this is possibly in 
>part due to the enervating climate, and in part to the oppression to 
>which they have been so long subject to" The Graphic, August 10th. 1878. *
>
>
>
>>
>>  
>>
>
>-- 
>**********************
>Charles L. Sligh
>Department of English
>Wake Forest University
>slighcl at wfu.edu
>**********************
>


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jul  6 10:13:31 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:13:31 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Males priggish
In-Reply-To: <4726853.1183696509637.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.e
	arthlink.net>
References: <4726853.1183696509637.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070706171332.CDNG3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  6 10:14:14 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 10:14:14 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] ugly women
Message-ID: <10338070.1183742055187.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Interesting.  Not to get too technical, but is a hermaphrodite a woman?  The job description require a "numinous woman," not half a woman.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 6, 2007 7:38 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>
>The hermaphrodites of Cyprus meet three out of four of those points.  I 
>am excluding number one, ie beautiful, but then I do not know that; 
>Durrell does not specifically say whether the hermaphrodites of Cyprus 
>are beautiful or not.  I suppose it is a matter of taste, of which the 
>Cypriots themselves are the best judges.
>
>:Michael
>
>
>On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 03:09  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>> Well, "in passing" doesn't count either.  M. M. Drake can't qualify as 
>> a numinous woman.  A few guidelines should be laid down for the 
>> "numinous woman."  I suggested that she be
>>
>> 1.  beautiful
>> 2.  elusive
>> 3.  ubiquitous
>> 4.  a "real presence" (G. Steiner).
>>
>> Other qualities welcomed.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>> Sent: Jul 6, 2007 7:01 AM
>>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>>>
>>> She gets mentioned in passing.  So does his 'daughter', but no mother
>>> is mentioned -- again, a man on an island with an unexplained little
>>> girl.  He is far more forthcoming about the hermaphrodites.
>>>
>>> :Michael
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:55  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is M. M. Drake in the story?  Numinous women outside the narrative
>>>> don't count.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>>>> Sent: Jul 6, 2007 6:33 AM
>>>>> To: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>>>>>
>>>>> But Marie Millington Drake was not a Cypriot.  All Cypriot women are
>>>>> ugly, we are told.  And the island is infested with hermaphrodites,
>>>>> which I do not think Marie was either.
>>>>>
>>>>> :Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 09:15  am, Richard Pine wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Marie Millington Drake was, apparently, very beautiful. She was 
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> author of at least 2 (unpublished) novels which are now in the LD
>>>>>> collection
>>>>>> at Carbondale - and she was the deceased muse who prompted his trip
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> Sicily - with disastrous literary results, as at least one member 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> group will agree. RP
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>>>> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 5:01 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, Michael, my comments aren't welcomed, but that won't stop 
>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>> yes, I think you're identified a major trope in Durrellian 
>>>>>>> studies:
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> feminine role in political activism.  It's now plain that Durrell 
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> unmitigated sexist:  women who abandon their traditional roles 
>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>> abandon their feminine allure.  Look what happened to Justine 
>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>> went off to that kibbutz in Palestine.  She became what?  Some
>>>>>>> ill-groomed, grubby chicken plucker.  She cut her hair, butch 
>>>>>>> style.
>>>>>>> She
>>>>>>> also probably stopped shaving her legs and painting her nails.  
>>>>>>> She
>>>>>>> became
>>>>>>> so disgusting that LD couldn't bear to describe her in his main
>>>>>>> narrative.
>>>>>>> That's what activism does to women.  Because of EOKA, Aphrodite of
>>>>>>> Amathus
>>>>>>> has fled Cyprus, her birthplace, and left it to the herms, 
>>>>>>> harpies,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> maenads (they're lurking under the flowers).  A prize to anyone 
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> finds
>>>>>>> the numinous woman on Cyprus, circa 1953.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Jul 5, 2007 8:00 PM
>>>>>>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>>>>> Subject: [ilds] ugly women
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We are told in these opening pages of Bitter Lemons of 'the
>>>>>>>> unfolding
>>>>>>>> of the Cyprus tragedy' (page 11) and, perhaps not unconnectedly,
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> the women are 'Very ugly ... Very ugly indeed' (page 17).  Later 
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> told (page 103) about 'Sir Harry meditating on the double-sexed
>>>>>>>> Aphrodite whose priests wore beards and whose worshippers 
>>>>>>>> inverted
>>>>>>>> their dress -- and wondering whether the extraordinary number of
>>>>>>>> hermaphrodites on Cyprus did not betoken some forgotten race, 
>>>>>>>> bred
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> the service of the temple'.  Perhaps this explains much.  No
>>>>>>>> numinous
>>>>>>>> women for a start, only bearded EOKA terrorists.  The ugliness of
>>>>>>>> Cypriot women, and the prevalence of hermaphroditism on the 
>>>>>>>> island,
>>>>>>>> seem to be key themes in the Cyprus tragedy and deserving our
>>>>>>>> discussion on this list.  Contributions by hermaphrodites and 
>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> forgotten race would be especially welcome.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> :Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ILDS mailing list
>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jul  6 10:20:26 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:20:26 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons - Symons
In-Reply-To: <00b801c7bfa5$22f99700$708ce9d5@rpinelaptop>
References: <6910016.1183686642116.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<54C0D71E-2B64-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<20070706020117.FLUS15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<00b801c7bfa5$22f99700$708ce9d5@rpinelaptop>
Message-ID: <20070706172037.CEOE3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  6 10:21:46 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 10:21:46 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Stendhal and Wyndham Lewis
Message-ID: <13474247.1183742506997.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Can someone answer Sumantra's question about Stendhal?  Long time ago, he also asked about Durrell basing Pursewarden's characterization on Wyndham Lewis, which I also heard somewhere.  No one answered that question either.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com>
>Sent: Jul 6, 2007 12:08 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 8
>
>On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:50  am, Bruce Redwine wrote
>
>"...Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both ..."
>
>Stendhal has been mentioned somewhere as a "master" for Lawrence Durrell and 
>references to the influence of Stendhal on Durrell have cropped up in 
>writings whose references I cannot now recall. In particular there is a 
>suggestion that Lawrence Durrell valued the practice of "writing fast" as 
>Stendhal was reputed to have done.
>
>Any illumination please, on the link between Durrell and Stendhal?
>
>Sumantra
>

From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jul  6 10:29:05 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:29:05 -0400
Subject: [ilds] ugly women
In-Reply-To: <97A6D5E4-2BCE-11DC-A281-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <12177861.1183730941141.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<97A6D5E4-2BCE-11DC-A281-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070706172907.GRWC7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jul  6 10:33:23 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:33:23 -0400
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 8
In-Reply-To: <000f01c7bf9c$8125ccd0$0201a8c0@intel>
References: <mailman.2327.1183694608.643130.ilds@lists.uvic.ca>
	<000f01c7bf9c$8125ccd0$0201a8c0@intel>
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  6 10:37:03 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 10:37:03 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Males priggish
Message-ID: <28475077.1183743424035.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Jay Gatsby's obsession with that flapper Daisy and a distant green light -- why do those traits make him more appealing than Darley and his Justine and the mirage of Alexandria?  Seems to me we need a woman's point of view re Darley and his problems.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jul 6, 2007 10:13 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's Males priggish 
>
>Isn't this a rather priggishcriticism of Darley as narrator?  
>Priggish criticism of a priggish narrator? There is a grab of melancholyover Darley which always makes a man a prig.
>
>Bill 
>
>***************************************
>W. L.Godshalk          *
>Department ofEnglish         *
>University ofCincinnati           Stellar disorder  *
>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>513-281-5927
>***************************************


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Fri Jul  6 10:40:50 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 18:40:50 +0100
Subject: [ilds] ugly women
In-Reply-To: <2bfc74100707060829l77c08c0bs32dc2ccf399bb0e0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <096CFD09-2BE8-11DC-947F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Durrell certainly had his politics, as for example one can see from 
Bitter Lemons, but they are not the politics suggested by James' 
interpretation of Oil for the Saint.

And of course Durrell's interest in hermaphrodites relates to his 
hermaphroditic Justine, and the hermaphroditic Nessim, those creatures 
with both male and female characteristics, and who form a common beast 
as described in Plato's Symposium.  Durrell was writing Justine on 
Cyprus, and so the issue of hermaphroditism is germane.  His letters at 
the time were full of this matter too.

:Michael



On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 04:29  pm, James Gifford wrote:

> I've been counting the days for how long it would take for _Bitter
> Lemons_ to take us back to Darley on his Greek island with the
> child...  The combination of Durrell's "study of bisexuality" for
> _Justine_ and the hermaphroditism in _Bitter Lemons_ is also striking.
>  While we would consider the association a misnomber by our
> contemporary standards, let's not forget that with his psychoanalytic
> materials (some good and some just plain silly, but usually adopted to
> good effect for the plot), Durrell would have seen hermaphrodites and
> bisexuals as plausibly related, at least notionally.
>
> I'm curious, though, if anyone has been itching to go back to those
> epigrams?  How do we reconcile:
>
> "This is not a political book..."
> "A race advancing on the east must begin with Cyprus..."
>   and
> "Towards an Eastern Landfall"
>
> Has Durrell not, in effect, placed himself as the invader through this
> juxtaposition when he quotes Hepworth Dixon?  Moreover, that epigram
> ends with a mention of the Suez Canal, which again brought Cyprus back
> to the fore as a site of strategic military control.  I'm sure that
> the Suez Crisis of 1956 would not have been noticed by Durrell or any
> contemporary readers...  (yes, that's ironic).
>
> I know Michael disagrees with my reading of "Oil for the Saint," but
> I've always been drawn to Durrell political sensibilities, which he
> often denied but seems to have always had -- on the surface, Durrell
> may be keen to suggest Bitter Lemons "is not a political book," but
> running through every stage of the narrative, those politics are poked
> and prodded in odd word choices, epigrams, juxtapositions, and
> unlikely word repetitions.  I see that happening quite a bit in the
> unlikely places, such as cute little short stories for tourist
> magazines.
>
> Next to those things, I think the gender issues in _Bitter Lemons_
> start to adopt a broader and more figurative context.  That comment
> isn't meant to dismiss the problems with gender in Durrell's works (or
> in his letters, and our Aussie friends have pointed out), but just to
> note that within a carefully reworked piece the descriptions are more
> likely to take on literary qualities than the likely quickly written
> comments in a letter, which might also reflect frustrations of the
> moment for a specific situation but expressed in more general terms.
> I suspect that tension is behind many of the unsavoury comments in
> Durrell's letters -- it's likely not the case in his comments to
> Miller about women, but I've also often seen a letter's meaning change
> radically once I read the text that sat parallel to it on Old D's
> desk.
>
> At any rate, the new Faber edition has restored the title to _Bitter
> Lemons of Cyprus_, so the namesake is again emphasized.  I know the
> lemons are indigenous, but there are some odd transplantations in this
> text as well...  I think we'll have much to talk about for that a
> little later on.
>
> But, back to work...
>
> Best,
> James
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Fri Jul  6 10:42:11 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 18:42:11 +0100
Subject: [ilds] ugly women
In-Reply-To: <10338070.1183742055187.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <39F9D352-2BE8-11DC-947F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

As I mentioned earlier, Justine was a hermaphrodite.  If she counts as 
numinous, what the hell.

:Michael



On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 06:14  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:

> Interesting.  Not to get too technical, but is a hermaphrodite a 
> woman?  The job description require a "numinous woman," not half a 
> woman.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>> Sent: Jul 6, 2007 7:38 AM
>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>>
>> The hermaphrodites of Cyprus meet three out of four of those points.  
>> I
>> am excluding number one, ie beautiful, but then I do not know that;
>> Durrell does not specifically say whether the hermaphrodites of Cyprus
>> are beautiful or not.  I suppose it is a matter of taste, of which the
>> Cypriots themselves are the best judges.
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>> On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 03:09  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>
>>> Well, "in passing" doesn't count either.  M. M. Drake can't qualify 
>>> as
>>> a numinous woman.  A few guidelines should be laid down for the
>>> "numinous woman."  I suggested that she be
>>>
>>> 1.  beautiful
>>> 2.  elusive
>>> 3.  ubiquitous
>>> 4.  a "real presence" (G. Steiner).
>>>
>>> Other qualities welcomed.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>>> Sent: Jul 6, 2007 7:01 AM
>>>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>>>>
>>>> She gets mentioned in passing.  So does his 'daughter', but no 
>>>> mother
>>>> is mentioned -- again, a man on an island with an unexplained little
>>>> girl.  He is far more forthcoming about the hermaphrodites.
>>>>
>>>> :Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:55  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is M. M. Drake in the story?  Numinous women outside the narrative
>>>>> don't count.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Jul 6, 2007 6:33 AM
>>>>>> To: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>>> Cc: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But Marie Millington Drake was not a Cypriot.  All Cypriot women 
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> ugly, we are told.  And the island is infested with 
>>>>>> hermaphrodites,
>>>>>> which I do not think Marie was either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 09:15  am, Richard Pine wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marie Millington Drake was, apparently, very beautiful. She was
>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> author of at least 2 (unpublished) novels which are now in the LD
>>>>>>> collection
>>>>>>> at Carbondale - and she was the deceased muse who prompted his 
>>>>>>> trip
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> Sicily - with disastrous literary results, as at least one member
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> group will agree. RP
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 5:01 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, Michael, my comments aren't welcomed, but that won't stop
>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>> yes, I think you're identified a major trope in Durrellian
>>>>>>>> studies:
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> feminine role in political activism.  It's now plain that 
>>>>>>>> Durrell
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> unmitigated sexist:  women who abandon their traditional roles
>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>> abandon their feminine allure.  Look what happened to Justine
>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>> went off to that kibbutz in Palestine.  She became what?  Some
>>>>>>>> ill-groomed, grubby chicken plucker.  She cut her hair, butch
>>>>>>>> style.
>>>>>>>> She
>>>>>>>> also probably stopped shaving her legs and painting her nails.
>>>>>>>> She
>>>>>>>> became
>>>>>>>> so disgusting that LD couldn't bear to describe her in his main
>>>>>>>> narrative.
>>>>>>>> That's what activism does to women.  Because of EOKA, Aphrodite 
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> Amathus
>>>>>>>> has fled Cyprus, her birthplace, and left it to the herms,
>>>>>>>> harpies,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> maenads (they're lurking under the flowers).  A prize to anyone
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> finds
>>>>>>>> the numinous woman on Cyprus, circa 1953.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Jul 5, 2007 8:00 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [ilds] ugly women
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We are told in these opening pages of Bitter Lemons of 'the
>>>>>>>>> unfolding
>>>>>>>>> of the Cyprus tragedy' (page 11) and, perhaps not 
>>>>>>>>> unconnectedly,
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> the women are 'Very ugly ... Very ugly indeed' (page 17).  
>>>>>>>>> Later
>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> told (page 103) about 'Sir Harry meditating on the double-sexed
>>>>>>>>> Aphrodite whose priests wore beards and whose worshippers
>>>>>>>>> inverted
>>>>>>>>> their dress -- and wondering whether the extraordinary number 
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> hermaphrodites on Cyprus did not betoken some forgotten race,
>>>>>>>>> bred
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> the service of the temple'.  Perhaps this explains much.  No
>>>>>>>>> numinous
>>>>>>>>> women for a start, only bearded EOKA terrorists.  The ugliness 
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> Cypriot women, and the prevalence of hermaphroditism on the
>>>>>>>>> island,
>>>>>>>>> seem to be key themes in the Cyprus tragedy and deserving our
>>>>>>>>> discussion on this list.  Contributions by hermaphrodites and
>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> forgotten race would be especially welcome.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> :Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> ILDS mailing list
>>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ILDS mailing list
>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From albigensian at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  6 10:35:25 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:35:25 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Stendhal and Wyndham Lewis
In-Reply-To: <13474247.1183742506997.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY108-F1463F9DD0376A1DB572C54B0010@phx.gbl>

I too would be very interested in the Wyndham Lewis connection--and does 
anyone know if Lewis ever traveled to Egypt?  quite curious--Pamela Francis 
(who is slightly--and only slightly, given the contexts and participants--to 
the long discussion on Ugly Women.  One would think that the listserve is 
trying to compose country and western songs....


>From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Stendhal and Wyndham Lewis
>Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 10:21:46 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
>
>Can someone answer Sumantra's question about Stendhal?  Long time ago, he 
>also asked about Durrell basing Pursewarden's characterization on Wyndham 
>Lewis, which I also heard somewhere.  No one answered that question either.
>
>Bruce
>
>-----Original Message-----
> >From: Sumantra Nag <sumantranag at gmail.com>
> >Sent: Jul 6, 2007 12:08 AM
> >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 8
> >
> >On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:50  am, Bruce Redwine wrote
> >
> >"...Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both ..."
> >
> >Stendhal has been mentioned somewhere as a "master" for Lawrence Durrell 
>and
> >references to the influence of Stendhal on Durrell have cropped up in
> >writings whose references I cannot now recall. In particular there is a
> >suggestion that Lawrence Durrell valued the practice of "writing fast" as
> >Stendhal was reputed to have done.
> >
> >Any illumination please, on the link between Durrell and Stendhal?
> >
> >Sumantra
> >
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  6 10:49:43 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 10:49:43 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- more corvo
Message-ID: <281591.1183744184030.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Thanks, Charles.  Now I know a lot about Corvo and can't imagine how the guy escaped my notice.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 7:33 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- more corvo
>
>On 7/5/2007 9:56 PM, william godshalk wrote:
>
>>Bruce, it's a literary allusion which Charlie will explain -- because 
>>he knows more than I do about Corvo. 
>>
>http://www.bouquinerie.com/catalogue/R/images/corvo.jpg
>
>Well, where to begin?  Rolfe/Corvo might be best defined in Durrell's 
>words:  he was one of those "/deeply wounded in his sex/."   If he had 
>lived beyond his Venice years I can imagine him showing up in 
>Alexandria.  He left a broken trail behind him and there was no 
>returning.  Alexandria was the perfect climate for a "bankrupt" like him.
>
>I suppose that Durrell is citing Corvo and having the bat-lark because 
>Rolfe lived in Venice for a while by mooching and died there 
>impoverished and bitterly paranoid after writing /The Desire and Pursuit 
>of the Whol/e and his /Venice Letters/.   If you enjoy reading /fin de 
>siecle/, Yellow-Bookish prose limning homosexual themes and 
>crypto-catholic imagery--and who does not?--then these books might be 
>for you. 
>
>>     In August 1908 Rolfe left for Venice and never returned, living
>>     out a kind of degenerate and vituperative envoi to his earlier
>>     years. His squabbles with publishers and his vicious exploitation
>>     of those who befriended him continued as before. He began to
>>     compose detailed fantasies about mystic cults signed 'Frederick of
>>     Venice', and embarked upon a series of sexual relationships with
>>     adolescent boys. Don Renato appeared in 1909, but was immediately
>>     suppressed. The Weird of the Wanderer, the last novel published in
>>     his lifetime, was brought out in 1912 in collaboration with Harry
>>     Pirie-Gordon. Rolfe then established residence at the Albergo
>>     Cavaletto, where he died of a stroke on 26 October 1913. He was
>>     unmarried, and his Venetian will left his estate to his brother,
>>     Alfred, a schoolteacher in Australia, who was unable to claim it
>>     for fear of creditors. The estate, consisting mostly of
>>     'incriminating' letters, photos, and manuscripts, was confiscated
>>     by the British consul, and most of it was destroyed. Rolfe was
>>     buried on 30 October 1913 in a pauper's grave in San Michele
>>     cemetery, Venice, where he was re-interred in 1924. His last
>>     novel, a homoerotic fantasy, The Desire and the Pursuit of the
>>     Whole, was published in 1934 to critical acclaim.
>>
>>     David Bradshaw [DNB]
>
>Rolfe also claimed to have been adopted by the Duchess of 
>Sforza-Cesarini--Durrell would have liked that name.  So would Pynchon.
>
>/Hadrian the Seventh/ is a marvelous little fantasy novel--fantasy in 
>the sense that it is Rolfe's own projection of how the priest he never 
>could be finds himself suddenly tapped by the College of Cardinals and 
>rising from obscurity to the Papacy.  Hilarious and moving, perhaps both 
>at times, especially when Rolfe did not intend. 
>
>Corvo's /Chronicles of the House of Borgias/ is something that I imagine 
>Durrell reading.  That would be fit since Corvo himself was a magpie who 
>liked taking up and making off with other folks' shiny prose and shiny 
>coins.
>
>    http://books.google.com/books?id=p7gNAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=inauthor:frederick+inauthor:rolfe&as_brr=1#PPR3,M1
>
>
>And Symons's /Quest/, as Michael and Bill have said, is simply 
>unavoidable for anyone interested in twentieth-century biography as a 
>prose art.
>
>http://www.studiocleo.com/librarie/rolfe/corvorolfe.html
>http://www.studiocleo.com/librarie/rolfe/bibliography.html
>http://www.giovannidallorto.com/saggistoria/rolfe/rolfe.html
>
>-- 
>**********************
>Charles L. Sligh
>Department of English
>Wake Forest University
>slighcl at wfu.edu
>**********************
>


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jul  6 10:50:29 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:50:29 -0400
Subject: [ilds] hermaphrodites
In-Reply-To: <39F9D352-2BE8-11DC-947F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <10338070.1183742055187.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<39F9D352-2BE8-11DC-947F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070706175040.GVEY7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jul  6 10:54:26 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:54:26 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Stendhal and Wyndham Lewis
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F1463F9DD0376A1DB572C54B0010@phx.gbl>
References: <13474247.1183742506997.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<BAY108-F1463F9DD0376A1DB572C54B0010@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070706175447.CKAQ3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jul  6 11:06:00 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 14:06:00 -0400
Subject: [ilds] hermaphrodites
In-Reply-To: <20070706175040.GVEY7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email
	.uc.edu>
References: <10338070.1183742055187.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<39F9D352-2BE8-11DC-947F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<20070706175040.GVEY7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  6 11:39:17 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 11:39:17 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- maps
Message-ID: <17600873.1183747158137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

We need to get our bearings, as Pamela Francis suggests, with a touch of exasperation, the sigh of "boys will be boys," I think.  Right.  Well, back to my question about maps, why doesn't Durrell insist on any, by and large, for his travel books?  Wouldn't this be a selling point?  The only one I can think of is the one in Sicilian Carousel.  (I suspect Faber made him do it.)  I offer this proposition -- he doesn't want any.  Being a good Romantic, Durrell knows that once you map a territory, it's no longer Romantic.  Maps kill Romanticism.  He wants terra incognita, where he can do as he pleases.  His islands are mythic landscapes, full of exotic names and strange creatures (Aphrodite's hermaphrodites), which he tosses around, notes in the marginalia of his story (like medieval MSS -- palimpsests), and makes little or no attempt to be realistic or modern.  So, the illustrations are also antique, 19th century or earlier.   They're what was called "picturesque" in the late 18th century.  When we do see contemporary photographs, it's something forced on him, or they're so full of ruins that you think you're accompanying a David Roberts on his journeys through Egypt and the Holy Land.  Anyone see the beautiful picture book, Paul Hogarth's The Mediterranean Shore:  Travels in Lawrence Durrell Country, intro. by LD (1988)?  That's another kind of imaginative recreation of Durrell's world, which he obviously endorsed.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 9:18 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- cyprus collector
>
>I rather like the woodcuts in Bitter Lemons.  A nice Crusader air.  But why didn't Durrell provide a map of the island?  One is much needed.  For example, when he lands at Limassol, the southern side of the island, I have no sense that the taxi drive traverses the fat part of the island to reach Kyrenia in the north, a journey of perhaps 100 miles.  I guess you could argue that all the ouzo shortens time and distance.
>
>Bruce
>



From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Jul  6 11:55:02 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 14:55:02 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- maps
In-Reply-To: <17600873.1183747158137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <17600873.1183747158137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <468E9006.7090208@wfu.edu>



On 7/6/2007 2:39 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:

>Well, back to my question about maps, why doesn't Durrell insist on any, by and large, for his travel books?  Wouldn't this be a selling point?  
>
Try the original printings of /Prospero's Cell/ and /Reflections on a 
Marine Venus/, Bruce.  Those maps were there originally.  Then pick up 
your phone and ask Faber & Faber, where did the maps go?

But then note how your 'Romantic' point might hold.  Durrell does not 
favor Survey maps.  He likes the antiquarian look.

Good luck!

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Jul  6 11:56:20 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 14:56:20 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- hermaphrodites (the double blossom of
 two fruitless flowers)
In-Reply-To: <20070706180632.CLYR3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <10338070.1183742055187.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<39F9D352-2BE8-11DC-947F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>	<20070706175040.GVEY7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<20070706180632.CLYR3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <468E9054.5030808@wfu.edu>

So what authorities to cite on Hermaphrodites?  Why fool around?  I will 
go to the top in order to get to the bottom of this.


1)  From the Book of El Skob:

        His letters were full of fantastic animadversions against Jews
        (who were always referred to jeeringly as "snipcocks') and,
        surprisingly enough, to passive pederasts (whom he labeled
        "Herms", i.e. Hermaphrodites.  (/Justine /4.2)


2) From Swinburne:

                    *Hermaphroditus (/Poems and Ballads/, 1866)*

                        I.

            LIFT UP thy lips, turn round, look back for love,
                Blind love that comes by night and casts out rest;
                Of all things tired thy lips look weariest,
            Save the long smile that they are wearied of.
            Ah sweet, albeit no love be sweet enough,
                Choose of two loves and cleave unto the best;
                Two loves at either blossom of thy breast
            Strive until one be under and one above.
            Their breath is fire upon the amorous air,
                Fire in thine eyes and where thy lips suspire:
            And whosoever hath seen thee, being so fair,
                Two things turn all his life and blood to fire;
            A strong desire begot on great despair,
                A great despair cast out by strong desire.

                        II.

            Where between sleep and life some brief space is,
                With love like gold bound round about the head,
                Sex to sweet sex with lips and limbs is wed,
            Turning the fruitful feud of hers and his
            To the waste wedlock of a sterile kiss;
                Yet from them something like as fire is shed
                That shall not be assuaged till death be dead,
            Though neither life nor sleep can find out this.
            Love made himself of flesh that perisheth
                A pleasure-house for all the loves his kin;
            But on the one side sat a man like death,
                And on the other a woman sat like sin.
            So with veiled eyes and sobs between his breath
                Love turned himself and would not enter in.

                        III.

            Love, is it love or sleep or shadow or light
                That lies between thine eyelids and thine eyes?
                Like a flower laid upon a flower it lies,
            Or like the night's dew laid upon the night.
            Love stands upon thy left hand and thy right,
                Yet by no sunset and by no moonrise
                Shall make thee man and ease a woman's sighs,
            Or make thee woman for a man's delight.
            To what strange end hath some strange god made fair
                The double blossom of two fruitless flowers?
            Hid love in all the folds of all thy hair,
                Fed thee on summers, watered thee with showers,
            Given all the gold that all the seasons wear
                To thee that art a thing of barren hours?

                        IV.

            Yea, love, I see; it is not love but fear.
                Nay, sweet, it is not fear but love, I know;
                Or wherefore should thy body's blossom blow
            So sweetly, or thine eyelids leave so clear
            Thy gracious eyes that never made a tear--
                Though for their love our tears like blood should flow,
                Though love and life and death should come and go,
            So dreadful, so desirable, so dear?
            Yea, sweet, I know; I saw in what swift wise
                Beneath the woman's and the water's kiss
            Thy moist limbs melted into Salmacis,
                And the large light turned tender in thine eyes,
            And all thy boy's breath softened into sighs;
                But Love being blind, how should he know of this?

                        Au Mus?e du Louvre, Mars 1863.


-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Fri Jul  6 12:04:32 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 21:04:32 +0200
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- maps
In-Reply-To: <468E9006.7090208@wfu.edu>
References: <17600873.1183747158137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<468E9006.7090208@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <468E9240.90604@interdesign.fr>

The maps were already gone in the first paperback 
editions.
Marc

slighcl wrote:
> 
> 
> On 7/6/2007 2:39 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
> 
>>Well, back to my question about maps, why doesn't Durrell insist on any, by and large, for his travel books?  Wouldn't this be a selling point?  
>>
> Try the original printings of Prospero's Cell and Reflections on a 
> Marine Venus, Bruce.  Those maps were there originally.  Then pick up 
> your phone and ask Faber & Faber, where did the maps go?
> 
> But then note how your 'Romantic' point might hold.  Durrell does not 
> favor Survey maps.  He likes the antiquarian look.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Charles
> 
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Jul  6 12:06:12 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 15:06:12 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Maps
Message-ID: <468E92A4.9090808@wfu.edu>

Fold these into your text--


The A.Ortelius/ P.Querini Atlas. 1667
 Cyprus Insula. A map of the Island of Cyprus. Title within decorative 
cartouche , two sailing ships and a sea monster. 


The image


*/Gerard & Cornelis de Jode in Antwerp. 1593/*

The image



-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From gifford at uvic.ca  Fri Jul  6 12:16:32 2007
From: gifford at uvic.ca (James Gifford)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:16:32 -0600
Subject: [ilds] ugly women
In-Reply-To: <39F9D352-2BE8-11DC-947F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <10338070.1183742055187.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<39F9D352-2BE8-11DC-947F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <2bfc74100707061216l27d45aefs45a1877e2d240047@mail.gmail.com>

I might add, Durrell elucidates his political views on Cyprus fairly
explicitly in his article "This Magnetic Island," which he wrote
coinciding with the Turkish invasion.  He seems to be neither liberal
nor conservative, merely practical with an island and people he
clearly loved.

I can dig up my copy, should it be useful.

--James

On 06/07/07, Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com> wrote:
> Durrell certainly had his politics, as for example one
> can see from Bitter Lemons, but they are not the
> politics suggested by James' interpretation of Oil
> for the Saint.

From gifford at uvic.ca  Fri Jul  6 12:18:57 2007
From: gifford at uvic.ca (James Gifford)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:18:57 -0600
Subject: [ilds] Stendhal and Wyndham Lewis
In-Reply-To: <20070706175447.CKAQ3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <13474247.1183742506997.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<BAY108-F1463F9DD0376A1DB572C54B0010@phx.gbl>
	<20070706175447.CKAQ3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <2bfc74100707061218p1ef578e3p8196d551bcaa272@mail.gmail.com>

Let's not forget that Durrell wrote an introduction for the French
edition of Lewis' _Tarr_.  Again, I can post, if anyone is interested
-- I've done my own translation as well.

Cheers,
James

On 06/07/07, william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu> wrote:
> "Death and the Counterlife of Heresy in Wyndham Lewis and Lawrence Durrell."
> Deus Loci: The Lawrence Durrell Quarterly 4.1 (1980): 3-16
>
> Does this help?
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> At 01:35 PM 7/6/2007, you wrote:
> I too would be very interested in the Wyndham Lewis connection--and does
> anyone know if Lewis ever traveled to Egypt?  quite curious--Pamela Francis
> (who is slightly--and only slightly, given the contexts and participants--to
> the long discussion on Ugly Women.  One would think that the listserve is
> trying to compose country and western songs....

From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Fri Jul  6 12:12:40 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 21:12:40 +0200
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- hermaphrodites (the double blossom
 of two fruitless flowers)
In-Reply-To: <468E9054.5030808@wfu.edu>
References: <10338070.1183742055187.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<39F9D352-2BE8-11DC-947F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>	<20070706175040.GVEY7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>	<20070706180632.CLYR3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<468E9054.5030808@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <468E9428.308@interdesign.fr>

Thank you Charles!
Marc

slighcl wrote:

> So what authorities to cite on Hermaphrodites?  Why fool around?  I will 
> go to the top in order to get to the bottom of this.
> 
> 
> 1)  From the Book of El Skob:
> 
>         His letters were full of fantastic animadversions against Jews
>         (who were always referred to jeeringly as "snipcocks') and,
>         surprisingly enough, to passive pederasts (whom he labeled
>         "Herms", i.e. Hermaphrodites.  (Justine 4.2)
> 
> 
> 2) From Swinburne:
> 
>                     Hermaphroditus (Poems and Ballads, 1866)
> 
>                         I.
> 
>             LIFT UP thy lips, turn round, look back for love,
>                 Blind love that comes by night and casts out rest;
>                 Of all things tired thy lips look weariest,
>             Save the long smile that they are wearied of.
>             Ah sweet, albeit no love be sweet enough,
>                 Choose of two loves and cleave unto the best;
>                 Two loves at either blossom of thy breast
>             Strive until one be under and one above.
>             Their breath is fire upon the amorous air,
>                 Fire in thine eyes and where thy lips suspire:
>             And whosoever hath seen thee, being so fair,
>                 Two things turn all his life and blood to fire;
>             A strong desire begot on great despair,
>                 A great despair cast out by strong desire.
> 
>                         II.
> 
>             Where between sleep and life some brief space is,
>                 With love like gold bound round about the head,
>                 Sex to sweet sex with lips and limbs is wed,
>             Turning the fruitful feud of hers and his
>             To the waste wedlock of a sterile kiss;
>                 Yet from them something like as fire is shed
>                 That shall not be assuaged till death be dead,
>             Though neither life nor sleep can find out this.
>             Love made himself of flesh that perisheth
>                 A pleasure-house for all the loves his kin;
>             But on the one side sat a man like death,
>                 And on the other a woman sat like sin.
>             So with veiled eyes and sobs between his breath
>                 Love turned himself and would not enter in.
> 
>                         III.
> 
>             Love, is it love or sleep or shadow or light
>                 That lies between thine eyelids and thine eyes?
>                 Like a flower laid upon a flower it lies,
>             Or like the night?s dew laid upon the night.
>             Love stands upon thy left hand and thy right,
>                 Yet by no sunset and by no moonrise
>                 Shall make thee man and ease a woman?s sighs,
>             Or make thee woman for a man?s delight.
>             To what strange end hath some strange god made fair
>                 The double blossom of two fruitless flowers?
>             Hid love in all the folds of all thy hair,
>                 Fed thee on summers, watered thee with showers,
>             Given all the gold that all the seasons wear
>                 To thee that art a thing of barren hours?
> 
>                         IV.
> 
>             Yea, love, I see; it is not love but fear.
>                 Nay, sweet, it is not fear but love, I know;
>                 Or wherefore should thy body?s blossom blow
>             So sweetly, or thine eyelids leave so clear
>             Thy gracious eyes that never made a tear?
>                 Though for their love our tears like blood should flow,
>                 Though love and life and death should come and go,
>             So dreadful, so desirable, so dear?
>             Yea, sweet, I know; I saw in what swift wise
>                 Beneath the woman?s and the water?s kiss
>             Thy moist limbs melted into Salmacis,
>                 And the large light turned tender in thine eyes,
>             And all thy boy?s breath softened into sighs;
>                 But Love being blind, how should he know of this?
> 
>                         Au Mus?e du Louvre, Mars 1863.
> 
> 
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From richardpin at eircom.net  Fri Jul  6 12:18:25 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 20:18:25 +0100
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 8
References: <mailman.2327.1183694608.643130.ilds@lists.uvic.ca><000f01c7bf9c$8125ccd0$0201a8c0@intel>
	<20070706173325.IWCC15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <023101c7c002$6f285410$708ce9d5@rpinelaptop>

SUMANTRA NAG, stop sending messages that are 29 pages long!!!!!!!!!
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: william godshalk 
  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 6:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 8


  Here's one reference:

  "Lawrence Durrell, Travel Writer, Heir of Stendhal." In-Between: Essays and Studies in Literary Criticism 11.2 (2002): 263-76




    Stendhal has been mentioned somewhere as a "master" for Lawrence Durrell and 
    references to the influence of Stendhal on Durrell have cropped up in 
    writings whose references I cannot now recall. In particular there is a 
    suggestion that Lawrence Durrell valued the practice of "writing fast" as 
    Stendhal was reputed to have done.

    Any illumination please, on the link between Durrell and Stendhal?

    Sumantra

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: <ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca>
    To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
    Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 9:33 AM
    Subject: ILDS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 8


    > Send ILDS mailing list submissions to
    > ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    >
    > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
    > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
    > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
    > ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca
    >
    > You can reach the person managing the list at
    > ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca
    >
    > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
    > than "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..."
    >
    >
    > Today's Topics:
    >
    >   1. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge (william godshalk)
    >   2. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes (slighcl)
    >   3. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes (Michael Haag)
    >   4. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of Elizabeth Alicia Maria
    >      Lewis (slighcl)
    >   5. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of Elizabeth Alicia Maria
    >      Lewis (Michael Haag)
    >   6. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes (slighcl)
    >   7. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes (william godshalk)
    >   8. sexism (Michael Haag)
    >   9. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- cyprus collector (slighcl)
    >  10. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge (Bruce Redwine)
    >  11. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge (Michael Haag)
    >  12. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge (william godshalk)
    >  13. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- Corvo (slighcl)
    >  14. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- no women? (Bruce Redwine)
    >  15. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge (william godshalk)
    >  16. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge (Bruce Redwine)
    >  17. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- more corvo (slighcl)
    >  18. ugly women (Michael Haag)
    >  19. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE (slighcl)
    >  20. Re: ugly women (william godshalk)
    >  21. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE (Michael Haag)
    >  22. Re: Durrell's Women (william godshalk)
    >  23. Re: Durrell's Women (Michael Haag)
    >  24. Re: DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE (slighcl)
    >  25. Re: ugly women (Bruce Redwine)
    >  26. RG Bitter Lemons -- Meet Bob Montgomery (slighcl)
    >
    >
    > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 1
    > Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:11:40 -0400
    > From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID:
    > <20070706011212.FGKA15819.gx6.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
    >
    > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
    > URL: 
    > http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070705/cc016cdd/attachment-0001.html 
    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 2
    > Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:18:32 -0400
    > From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID: <468D9868.6050800 at wfu.edu>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
    >
    >
    >
    > On 7/5/2007 8:59 PM, slighcl wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>
    >>     Lewis, Agnes Smith (1843-1926), Arabic and Syriac scholar and
    >>     novelist, was born Agnes Smith on 16 April 1843 in Irvine,
    >>     Ayrshire[. . . .]
    >>
    > Could someone more expert on Anglo-Cypriot relations confirm for me that
    > this is "Mrs. Lewis"?
    >
    > Like Bill, I am looking at a bookdealer's description that tells me
    >
    >        A Lady's Impressions of Cyprus.
    >        Lewis, Mrs. [Agnes, formerly Agnes Smith]
    >        Bookseller: Bay Laurel Books
    >        (Kent, LON, United Kingdom)     Price: US$ 1869.61
    >
    >
    >        Book Description: Remington & Company, Limited., 1894.
    >        Hardcover. Book Condition: Very Good. 1st Edition. First
    >        edition. 8vo. pp. ix, 346; extending map frontis., 3 plates from
    >        sketches; embrowning to endpapers, slight spotting to frontis.
    >        and title, occasional pencil annotations, else a very good copy
    >        in the original cloth, gilt, a little rubbed. Bookseller
    >        Inventory # 000653
    >
    >
    > But given that "Smith" and "Lewis" are not the most distinctive names to
    > search out--too many!--I am worried we are at crossed-signals.
    >
    > Thanks!
    >
    > Charles
    >
    > -- 
    > **********************
    > Charles L. Sligh
    > Department of English
    > Wake Forest University
    > slighcl at wfu.edu
    > **********************
    >
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    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 3
    > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 02:27:16 +0100
    > From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID: <081EEBAD-2B60-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
    >
    > Not the same woman.  The author of A Lady's First etc was Elizabeth A M
    > Lewis.
    >
    > :Michael
    >
    >
    > On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:18  am, slighcl wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>
    >> On 7/5/2007 8:59 PM, slighcl wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Lewis, Agnes Smith (1843?1926), Arabic and Syriac scholar and
    >> novelist, was born Agnes Smith on 16 April 1843 in Irvine, Ayrshire[.
    >> . . .]
    >>
    >> Could someone more expert on Anglo-Cypriot relations confirm for me
    >> that this is "Mrs. Lewis"?
    >>
    >> Like Bill, I am looking at a bookdealer's description that tells me
    >>
    >> A Lady's Impressions of Cyprus.
    >> Lewis, Mrs. [Agnes, formerly Agnes Smith]
    >> Bookseller: Bay Laurel Books
    >> (Kent, LON, United Kingdom) ??? Price: US$ 1869.61
    >>
    >>
    >> Book Description: Remington & Company, Limited., 1894. Hardcover. Book
    >> Condition: Very Good. 1st Edition. First edition. 8vo. pp. ix, 346;
    >> extending map frontis., 3 plates from sketches; embrowning to
    >> endpapers, slight spotting to frontis. and title, occasional pencil
    >> annotations, else a very good copy in the original cloth, gilt, a
    >> little rubbed. Bookseller Inventory # 000653
    >>
    >>
    >> But given that "Smith" and "Lewis" are not the most distinctive names
    >> to search out--too many!--I am worried we are at crossed-signals.
    >>
    >> Thanks!
    >>
    >> Charles
    >>
    >> -- 
    >> **********************
    >> Charles L. Sligh
    >> Department of English
    >> Wake Forest University
    >> slighcl at wfu.edu
    >> **********************
    >>
    >> _______________________________________________
    >> ILDS mailing list
    >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
    >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 4
    > Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:24:55 -0400
    > From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of Elizabeth Alicia
    > Maria Lewis
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID: <468D99E7.80800 at wfu.edu>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
    >
    > No.  Wrong Lewis.  In WorldCat I find the following identification:
    >
    >    Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis
    >
    >
    > And there I went trying to make into Mrs. Lewis an Orientalist scholar
    > and founder of schools!
    >
    > But our Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis really did like Cyprus:
    >
    >    /The Templars in Cyprus :
    >    a dramatic poem/ /
    >
    >    Friedrich Ludwig Zacharias Werner;  Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis
    >    1886
    >    English Book Book 262 p. ; 19 cm.
    >    London : G. Bell and Sons.
    >
    >
    > Self-correcting,
    >
    > Charles
    >
    > -- 
    > **********************
    > Charles L. Sligh
    > Department of English
    > Wake Forest University
    > slighcl at wfu.edu
    > **********************
    >
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    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 5
    > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 02:32:10 +0100
    > From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of Elizabeth Alicia
    > Maria Lewis
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID: <B755059A-2B60-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
    >
    > Probably the source of Durrell's misinformation about the Templars on
    > Cyprus.
    >
    > By the way, Elizabeth David's copy of A Lady's etc recently sold for
    > ?460.  A snip.
    >
    > :Michael
    >
    >
    >
    > On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:24  am, slighcl wrote:
    >
    >> No.? Wrong Lewis.? In WorldCat I find the following identification:
    >>
    >> Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis
    >>
    >>
    >> And there I went trying to make into Mrs. Lewis an Orientalist scholar
    >> and founder of schools!
    >>
    >> But our Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis really did like Cyprus:
    >>
    >> The Templars in Cyprus :
    >> a dramatic poem /
    >>
    >> Friedrich Ludwig Zacharias Werner;? Elizabeth Alicia Maria Lewis
    >> 1886
    >> English Book Book 262 p. ; 19 cm.
    >> London : G. Bell and Sons.
    >>
    >>
    >> Self-correcting,
    >>
    >> Charles
    >>
    >> -- 
    >> **********************
    >> Charles L. Sligh
    >> Department of English
    >> Wake Forest University
    >> slighcl at wfu.edu
    >> **********************
    >>
    >> _______________________________________________
    >> ILDS mailing list
    >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
    >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 6
    > Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:34:12 -0400
    > From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID: <468D9C14.8070606 at wfu.edu>
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    >
    >
    >
    > On 7/5/2007 9:27 PM, Michael Haag wrote:
    >
    >> Not the same woman. The author of A Lady's First etc was Elizabeth A M
    >> Lewis.
    >
    > Thanks, Michael.
    >
    > An interesting instance of how one wrong record could have set me on to
    > a false trail.  And that bookshop still is asking for US $2000 after
    > misidentifying the author.
    >
    > Carefully, carefully.
    >
    > Charles
    >
    > -- 
    > **********************
    > Charles L. Sligh
    > Department of English
    > Wake Forest University
    > slighcl at wfu.edu
    > **********************
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 7
    > Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:38:50 -0400
    > From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- in praise of agnes
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID:
    > <20070706013912.YSVP3027.gx5.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
    >
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    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 8
    > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 02:48:03 +0100
    > From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
    > Subject: [ilds] sexism
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID: <EF35F296-2B62-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
    >
    > A.  Why are so many men interested in Durrell studies, i.e. most of the
    > respondents in the discussion group are male?  Is it because they are
    > fascinated by Durrell's fantasy women and the world he creates around
    > them?   - Anna Lillios
    >
    >> B.    As a member of the Durrell Society, the intent behind my
    >> questioning of male readers' attraction to LD's femme fatales is to
    >> figure out, in general, how to expand interest in Durrell studies--by
    >> gender, race, age, etc--so that his works will survive through the
    >> 21st century.  Every time I travel, I go to bookstores and always look
    >> to see if his works are on the shelves.  I was recently in the Midwest
    >> and didn't find his books, even at the U. of Iowa Bookstore.  I like
    >> Bill's term, "diversity in the marketplace of ideas," but the big
    >> question is how to create it.  I think we're beyond feeling "tant
    >> pis."  - Anna Lillios
    >
    > Statement A is a sexist leading question.  Statement B seems to bare no
    > relationship to statement A.  The proper answer, as I said before, is
    > for women to make a greater contribution.
    >
    > :Michael
    >
    >
    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 9
    > Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:50:06 -0400
    > From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- cyprus collector
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Cc: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>, Bill Godshalk
    > <godshawl at EMAIL.UC.EDU>
    > Message-ID: <468D9FCE.7030802 at wfu.edu>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
    >
    > The Cyprus Collector site has many scans of Cyprus-related woodcuts,
    > engravings, and maps that might entertain anyone taking up /Bitter 
    > Lemons/.
    >
    > Try this series for some moments after the arrival of the British:
    >
    >    http://www.cypruscollector.net/ency1.html
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Nice mustaches:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > And here is a bit of that "Gothic" landscape:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > And then visit the site itself:
    >
    >    http://www.cypruscollector.net/
    >
    >
    > Charles
    >
    > -- 
    > **********************
    > Charles L. Sligh
    > Department of English
    > Wake Forest University
    > slighcl at wfu.edu
    > **********************
    >
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    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 10
    > Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 18:50:41 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
    > From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID:
    > <6910016.1183686642116.JavaMail.root at elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
    >
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
    >
    > "Kubla Khan," l. 1:  "In Xanadu did Kubla Khan / A stately pleasure dome 
    > decree."  The allusion doesn't work for me, unless taken ironically, i.e., 
    > the final outcome being anything but.
    >
    > Another hard nut:  "or on that of a Corvo, flitting like some huge 
    > fruit-bat down these light-bewitched alleys. . . . "  What's going on 
    > here?  Italian "corvo" = crow, raven.  Why the capital C?  Is it a place 
    > name?  Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both on the back of a crow flitting 
    > through the back alleys of Venice, prefiguring the Lord of the Rings?
    >
    > Bruce
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    >>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
    >>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 5:37 PM
    >>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    >>Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
    >>
    >>"Apparently the hotel was to be an echo of Coleridge" (last page of
    >>"Towards an Eastern Landfall.")
    >>
    >>I assume it's the word "Dome" that sets off the echo. But why does
    >>Durrell mention it?
    >>
    >>Bill
    >>***************************************
    >>W. L. Godshalk *
    >>Department of English         *
    >>University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
    >>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
    >>513-281-5927
    >>***************************************
    >>
    >>
    >>_______________________________________________
    >>ILDS mailing list
    >>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
    >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
    >
    >
    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 11
    > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 02:58:03 +0100
    > From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
    > To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID: <54C0D71E-2B64-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
    >
    > Frederick Rolfe, Baron Corvo, The Quest for Corvo.
    >
    > :Michael
    >
    >
    > On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:50  am, Bruce Redwine wrote:
    >
    >> "Kubla Khan," l. 1:  "In Xanadu did Kubla Khan / A stately pleasure
    >> dome decree."  The allusion doesn't work for me, unless taken
    >> ironically, i.e., the final outcome being anything but.
    >>
    >> Another hard nut:  "or on that of a Corvo, flitting like some huge
    >> fruit-bat down these light-bewitched alleys. . . . "  What's going on
    >> here?  Italian "corvo" = crow, raven.  Why the capital C?  Is it a
    >> place name?  Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both on the back of a crow
    >> flitting through the back alleys of Venice, prefiguring the Lord of
    >> the Rings?
    >>
    >> Bruce
    >>
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >>> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
    >>> Sent: Jul 5, 2007 5:37 PM
    >>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    >>> Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
    >>>
    >>> "Apparently the hotel was to be an echo of Coleridge" (last page of
    >>> "Towards an Eastern Landfall.")
    >>>
    >>> I assume it's the word "Dome" that sets off the echo. But why does
    >>> Durrell mention it?
    >>>
    >>> Bill
    >>> ***************************************
    >>> W. L. Godshalk *
    >>> Department of English         *
    >>> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
    >>> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
    >>> 513-281-5927
    >>> ***************************************
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> _______________________________________________
    >>> ILDS mailing list
    >>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
    >>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
    >>
    >> _______________________________________________
    >> ILDS mailing list
    >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
    >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
    >>
    >
    >
    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 12
    > Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:56:16 -0400
    > From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
    > To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID:
    > <20070706015708.FLHQ15819.gx6.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
    >
    > Bruce, it's a literary allusion which Charlie will explain -- because
    > he knows more than I do about Corvo. The New York Review of Books
    > Editions will provide you with hardcopy.
    >
    > Bill
    >
    >
    > At 09:50 PM 7/5/2007, you wrote:
    >>"Kubla Khan," l. 1:  "In Xanadu did Kubla Khan / A stately pleasure
    >>dome decree."  The allusion doesn't work for me, unless taken
    >>ironically, i.e., the final outcome being anything but.
    >>
    >>Another hard nut:  "or on that of a Corvo, flitting like some huge
    >>fruit-bat down these light-bewitched alleys. . . . "  What's going
    >>on here?  Italian "corvo" = crow, raven.  Why the capital C?  Is it
    >>a place name?  Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both on the back of a
    >>crow flitting through the back alleys of Venice, prefiguring the
    >>Lord of the Rings?
    >>
    >>Bruce
    >>
    >>-----Original Message-----
    >> >From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
    >> >Sent: Jul 5, 2007 5:37 PM
    >> >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    >> >Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
    >> >
    >> >"Apparently the hotel was to be an echo of Coleridge" (last page of
    >> >"Towards an Eastern Landfall.")
    >> >
    >> >I assume it's the word "Dome" that sets off the echo. But why does
    >> >Durrell mention it?
    >> >
    >> >Bill
    >> >***************************************
    >> >W. L. Godshalk         *
    >> >Department of English         *
    >> >University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
    >> >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
    >> >513-281-5927
    >> >***************************************
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >_______________________________________________
    >> >ILDS mailing list
    >> >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
    >> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
    >>
    >>_______________________________________________
    >>ILDS mailing list
    >>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
    >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
    >
    > ***************************************
    > W. L. Godshalk *
    > Department of English         *
    > University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
    > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
    > 513-281-5927
    > ***************************************
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 13
    > Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:59:18 -0400
    > From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Corvo
    > To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID: <468DA1F6.5050806 at wfu.edu>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
    >
    > On 7/5/2007 9:50 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>Another hard nut:  "or on that of a Corvo, flitting like some huge 
    >>fruit-bat down these light-bewitched alleys. . . . "  What's going on 
    >>here?  Italian "corvo" = crow, raven.  Why the capital C?  Is it a place 
    >>name?  Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both on the back of a crow flitting 
    >>through the back alleys of Venice, prefiguring the Lord of the Rings?
    >>
    > Durrell is invoking Baron Corvo/Frederick Rolfe, Bruce.
    >
    > Read as much about and by Corvo as you can.
    >
    >    http://www.nybooks.com/nyrb/authors/7424
    >
    >    http://www.nybooks.com/nyrb/book-search?q=symons
    >
    >    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Rolfe
    >
    >
    > The simile, which recalls Hunter Thompson's /Fear and Loathing/ for me,
    > is in every way appropriate.  Bats for the batty!
    >
    > Enjoy!
    >
    > Charles
    >
    > -- 
    > **********************
    > Charles L. Sligh
    > Department of English
    > Wake Forest University
    > slighcl at wfu.edu
    > **********************
    >
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    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 14
    > Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 18:59:53 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
    > From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- no women?
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID:
    > <16496829.1183687193343.JavaMail.root at elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
    >
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
    >
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    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 15
    > Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:00:14 -0400
    > From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID:
    > <20070706020117.FLUS15819.gx6.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
    >
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    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 16
    > Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 19:02:59 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
    > From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
    > To: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>, Durrell list
    > <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
    > Message-ID:
    > <11213799.1183687380125.JavaMail.root at elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
    >
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
    >
    > I prefer flying on the back of a corvo.
    >
    > Bruce
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    >>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
    >>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 6:58 PM
    >>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    >>Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
    >>
    >>Frederick Rolfe, Baron Corvo, The Quest for Corvo.
    >>
    >>:Michael
    >>
    >>
    >>On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 02:50  am, Bruce Redwine wrote:
    >>
    >>> "Kubla Khan," l. 1:  "In Xanadu did Kubla Khan / A stately pleasure
    >>> dome decree."  The allusion doesn't work for me, unless taken
    >>> ironically, i.e., the final outcome being anything but.
    >>>
    >>> Another hard nut:  "or on that of a Corvo, flitting like some huge
    >>> fruit-bat down these light-bewitched alleys. . . . "  What's going on
    >>> here?  Italian "corvo" = crow, raven.  Why the capital C?  Is it a
    >>> place name?  Or is Durrell or Stendhal or both on the back of a crow
    >>> flitting through the back alleys of Venice, prefiguring the Lord of
    >>> the Rings?
    >>>
    >>> Bruce
    >>>
    >>> -----Original Message-----
    >>>> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
    >>>> Sent: Jul 5, 2007 5:37 PM
    >>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    >>>> Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- Coleridge
    >>>>
    >>>> "Apparently the hotel was to be an echo of Coleridge" (last page of
    >>>> "Towards an Eastern Landfall.")
    >>>>
    >>>> I assume it's the word "Dome" that sets off the echo. But why does
    >>>> Durrell mention it?
    >>>>
    >>>> Bill
    >>>> ***************************************
    >>>> W. L. Godshalk *
    >>>> Department of English         *
    >>>> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
    >>>> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
    >>>> 513-281-5927
    >>>> ***************************************
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> _______________________________________________
    >>>> ILDS mailing list
    >>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
    >>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
    >>>
    >>> _______________________________________________
    >>> ILDS mailing list
    >>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
    >>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
    >>>
    >>
    >
    >
    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 17
    > Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:33:53 -0400
    > From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- more corvo
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID: <468DAA11.60702 at wfu.edu>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
    >
    > On 7/5/2007 9:56 PM, william godshalk wrote:
    >
    >>Bruce, it's a literary allusion which Charlie will explain -- because
    >>he knows more than I do about Corvo.
    >>
    > http://www.bouquinerie.com/catalogue/R/images/corvo.jpg
    >
    > Well, where to begin?  Rolfe/Corvo might be best defined in Durrell's
    > words:  he was one of those "/deeply wounded in his sex/."   If he had
    > lived beyond his Venice years I can imagine him showing up in
    > Alexandria.  He left a broken trail behind him and there was no
    > returning.  Alexandria was the perfect climate for a "bankrupt" like him.
    >
    > I suppose that Durrell is citing Corvo and having the bat-lark because
    > Rolfe lived in Venice for a while by mooching and died there
    > impoverished and bitterly paranoid after writing /The Desire and Pursuit
    > of the Whol/e and his /Venice Letters/.   If you enjoy reading /fin de
    > siecle/, Yellow-Bookish prose limning homosexual themes and
    > crypto-catholic imagery--and who does not?--then these books might be
    > for you.
    >
    >>     In August 1908 Rolfe left for Venice and never returned, living
    >>     out a kind of degenerate and vituperative envoi to his earlier
    >>     years. His squabbles with publishers and his vicious exploitation
    >>     of those who befriended him continued as before. He began to
    >>     compose detailed fantasies about mystic cults signed 'Frederick of
    >>     Venice', and embarked upon a series of sexual relationships with
    >>     adolescent boys. Don Renato appeared in 1909, but was immediately
    >>     suppressed. The Weird of the Wanderer, the last novel published in
    >>     his lifetime, was brought out in 1912 in collaboration with Harry
    >>     Pirie-Gordon. Rolfe then established residence at the Albergo
    >>     Cavaletto, where he died of a stroke on 26 October 1913. He was
    >>     unmarried, and his Venetian will left his estate to his brother,
    >>     Alfred, a schoolteacher in Australia, who was unable to claim it
    >>     for fear of creditors. The estate, consisting mostly of
    >>     'incriminating' letters, photos, and manuscripts, was confiscated
    >>     by the British consul, and most of it was destroyed. Rolfe was
    >>     buried on 30 October 1913 in a pauper's grave in San Michele
    >>     cemetery, Venice, where he was re-interred in 1924. His last
    >>     novel, a homoerotic fantasy, The Desire and the Pursuit of the
    >>     Whole, was published in 1934 to critical acclaim.
    >>
    >>     David Bradshaw [DNB]
    >
    > Rolfe also claimed to have been adopted by the Duchess of
    > Sforza-Cesarini--Durrell would have liked that name.  So would Pynchon.
    >
    > /Hadrian the Seventh/ is a marvelous little fantasy novel--fantasy in
    > the sense that it is Rolfe's own projection of how the priest he never
    > could be finds himself suddenly tapped by the College of Cardinals and
    > rising from obscurity to the Papacy.  Hilarious and moving, perhaps both
    > at times, especially when Rolfe did not intend.
    >
    > Corvo's /Chronicles of the House of Borgias/ is something that I imagine
    > Durrell reading.  That would be fit since Corvo himself was a magpie who
    > liked taking up and making off with other folks' shiny prose and shiny
    > coins.
    >
    > 
    > http://books.google.com/books?id=p7gNAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=inauthor:frederick+inauthor:rolfe&as_brr=1#PPR3,M1 
    >
    >
    > And Symons's /Quest/, as Michael and Bill have said, is simply
    > unavoidable for anyone interested in twentieth-century biography as a
    > prose art.
    >
    > http://www.studiocleo.com/librarie/rolfe/corvorolfe.html
    > http://www.studiocleo.com/librarie/rolfe/bibliography.html
    > http://www.giovannidallorto.com/saggistoria/rolfe/rolfe.html
    >
    > -- 
    > **********************
    > Charles L. Sligh
    > Department of English
    > Wake Forest University
    > slighcl at wfu.edu
    > **********************
    >
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    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 18
    > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 04:00:12 +0100
    > From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
    > Subject: [ilds] ugly women
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID: <03A562B4-2B6D-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
    >
    > We are told in these opening pages of Bitter Lemons of 'the unfolding
    > of the Cyprus tragedy' (page 11) and, perhaps not unconnectedly, that
    > the women are 'Very ugly ... Very ugly indeed' (page 17).  Later we are
    > told (page 103) about 'Sir Harry meditating on the double-sexed
    > Aphrodite whose priests wore beards and whose worshippers inverted
    > their dress -- and wondering whether the extraordinary number of
    > hermaphrodites on Cyprus did not betoken some forgotten race, bred for
    > the service of the temple'.  Perhaps this explains much.  No numinous
    > women for a start, only bearded EOKA terrorists.  The ugliness of
    > Cypriot women, and the prevalence of hermaphroditism on the island,
    > seem to be key themes in the Cyprus tragedy and deserving our
    > discussion on this list.  Contributions by hermaphrodites and those of
    > forgotten race would be especially welcome.
    >
    > :Michael
    >
    >
    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 19
    > Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:14:15 -0400
    > From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID: <468DB387.7090305 at wfu.edu>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
    >
    > Has anyone ever put forward a claim that Durrell's poetry from the
    > 1950s--/The Tree of Idleness/ &c.--is his strongest verse?
    >
    > ***
    >
    >            Durrell, Lawrence:  A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE [from Collected
    >            Poems: 1931-1974 (1985), Faber and Faber]
    >
    >            Zarian was saying: Florence is youth,
    >            And after it Ravenna, age,
    >            Then Venice, second-childhood.
    >
    >            The pools of burning stone where time
    >            And water, the old siege-masters,
    >            Have run their saps beneath
    >            A thousand saddle-bridges,
    >            Puffed up by marble griffins drinking,
    >
    >            [Page 214 ]
    >
    >            And all set free to float on loops
    >            Of her canals like great intestines
    >            Now snapped off like a berg to float,
    >            Where now, like others, you have come alone,
    >            To trap your sunset in a yellow glass,
    >            And watch the silversmith at work
    >            Chasing the famous salver of the bay ...
    >
    >            Here sense dissolves, combines to print only
    >            These bitten choirs of stone on water,
    >            To the rumble of old cloth bells,
    >            The cadging of confetti pigeons,
    >            A boatman singing from his long black coffin ...
    >
    >            To all that has been said before
    >            You can add nothing, only that here,
    >            Thick as a brushstroke sleep has laid
    >            Its fleecy unconcern on every visage,
    >
    >            At the bottom of every soul a spoonful of sleep.
    >
    >            1955/1950
    >
    >
    >
    > -- 
    > **********************
    > Charles L. Sligh
    > Department of English
    > Wake Forest University
    > slighcl at wfu.edu
    > **********************
    >
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    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 20
    > Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:18:45 -0400
    > From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID:
    > <20070706031958.FTJU15819.gx6.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
    >
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    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 21
    > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 04:29:59 +0100
    > From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID: <2CF0C446-2B71-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
    >
    > Yes, you.
    >
    > :Michael
    >
    >
    > On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 04:14  am, slighcl wrote:
    >
    >> Has anyone ever put forward a claim that Durrell's poetry from the
    >> 1950s--The Tree of Idleness &c.--is his strongest verse?
    >>
    >> ***
    >>
    >> Durrell, Lawrence:? A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE [from Collected Poems:
    >> 1931-1974 (1985), Faber and Faber]
    >>
    >> Zarian was saying: Florence is youth,
    >> And after it Ravenna, age,
    >> Then Venice, second-childhood.
    >>
    >> The pools of burning stone where time
    >> And water, the old siege-masters,
    >> Have run their saps beneath
    >> A thousand saddle-bridges,
    >> Puffed up by marble griffins drinking,
    >>
    >> [Page 214 ]
    >>
    >> And all set free to float on loops
    >> Of her canals like great intestines
    >> Now snapped off like a berg to float,
    >> Where now, like others, you have come alone,
    >> To trap your sunset in a yellow glass,
    >> And watch the silversmith at work
    >> Chasing the famous salver of the bay ...
    >>
    >> Here sense dissolves, combines to print only
    >> These bitten choirs of stone on water,
    >> To the rumble of old cloth bells,
    >> The cadging of confetti pigeons,
    >> A boatman singing from his long black coffin ...
    >>
    >> To all that has been said before
    >> You can add nothing, only that here,
    >> Thick as a brushstroke sleep has laid
    >> Its fleecy unconcern on every visage,
    >>
    >> At the bottom of every soul a spoonful of sleep.
    >>
    >> 1955/1950
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> -- 
    >> **********************
    >> Charles L. Sligh
    >> Department of English
    >> Wake Forest University
    >> slighcl at wfu.edu
    >> **********************
    >>
    >> _______________________________________________
    >> ILDS mailing list
    >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
    >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 22
    > Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:36:23 -0400
    > From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's Women
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID:
    > <20070706033745.FUQO15819.gx6.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
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    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 23
    > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 04:46:32 +0100
    > From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's Women
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID: <7C73BF4A-2B73-11DC-A33D-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
    >
    >>
    >
    > As though SHE has had Darley and done with him.  Nothing left to do but
    > chase her immortal scent off across the plains of Asia in the next
    > book.  Durrell and Miller adored SHE.  And so did Siggy Freud.
    >
    > :Michael
    >
    >>
    >> Yes, Darley is not a strong narrator, nor is he a strong character
    >> within his own narrative. He tells us that he used to write and
    >> publish. He does give lectures. He likes to read in Nessim and
    >> Justine's library. Melissa comes to him, rather than he to her.
    >> Justine like a hunting dog drags him home to Nessim. Now, he sits on
    >> his island and writes about the past -- like a character in H. Ryder
    >> Haggard.
    >>
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    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 24
    > Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:44:55 -0400
    > From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID: <468DBAB7.9030306 at wfu.edu>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
    >
    >
    >
    > On 7/5/2007 11:29 PM, Michael Haag wrote:
    >
    >> Yes, you.
    >>
    >> :Michael
    >>
    >>
    >> On Friday, July 6, 2007, at 04:14 am, slighcl wrote:
    >>
    >>     Has anyone ever put forward a claim that Durrell's poetry from the
    >>     1950s--The Tree of Idleness &c.--is his strongest verse?
    >>
    > Okay.  Well I would be of course interested to hear from others.
    > Perhaps I am assuming quite a bit--assuming, that is, that anyone out
    > there reads the poetry as it was set into its original published
    > presentations?
    >
    >
    >
    > Collected and Selected editions are fine and have a certain purpose.
    > But give me /The Tree of Idleness/ late in the afternoon, and I "hear"
    > Durrell there.  Again, perhaps that volume is stronger for me because it
    > presents Durrell at a key conjunction, a special combination of
    > bio-geographical moments (places and people lived and loved) and
    > literary ambition.   But perhaps also because its poems are little
    > staging grounds for the works that would follow post-1955.
    >
    > Charles
    >
    > -- 
    > **********************
    > Charles L. Sligh
    > Department of English
    > Wake Forest University
    > slighcl at wfu.edu
    > **********************
    >
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    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 25
    > Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 21:01:50 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
    > From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
    > Subject: Re: [ilds] ugly women
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID:
    > <27879228.1183694510808.JavaMail.root at elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
    >
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
    >
    > Well, Michael, my comments aren't welcomed, but that won't stop me.  But 
    > yes, I think you're identified a major trope in Durrellian studies:  the 
    > feminine role in political activism.  It's now plain that Durrell is an 
    > unmitigated sexist:  women who abandon their traditional roles also 
    > abandon their feminine allure.  Look what happened to Justine after she 
    > went off to that kibbutz in Palestine.  She became what?  Some 
    > ill-groomed, grubby chicken plucker.  She cut her hair, butch style.  She 
    > also probably stopped shaving her legs and painting her nails.  She became 
    > so disgusting that LD couldn't bear to describe her in his main narrative. 
    > That's what activism does to women.  Because of EOKA, Aphrodite of Amathus 
    > has fled Cyprus, her birthplace, and left it to the herms, harpies, and 
    > maenads (they're lurking under the flowers).  A prize to anyone who finds 
    > the numinous woman on Cyprus, circa 1953.
    >
    > Bruce
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    >>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
    >>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 8:00 PM
    >>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    >>Subject: [ilds] ugly women
    >>
    >>We are told in these opening pages of Bitter Lemons of 'the unfolding
    >>of the Cyprus tragedy' (page 11) and, perhaps not unconnectedly, that
    >>the women are 'Very ugly ... Very ugly indeed' (page 17).  Later we are
    >>told (page 103) about 'Sir Harry meditating on the double-sexed
    >>Aphrodite whose priests wore beards and whose worshippers inverted
    >>their dress -- and wondering whether the extraordinary number of
    >>hermaphrodites on Cyprus did not betoken some forgotten race, bred for
    >>the service of the temple'.  Perhaps this explains much.  No numinous
    >>women for a start, only bearded EOKA terrorists.  The ugliness of
    >>Cypriot women, and the prevalence of hermaphroditism on the island,
    >>seem to be key themes in the Cyprus tragedy and deserving our
    >>discussion on this list.  Contributions by hermaphrodites and those of
    >>forgotten race would be especially welcome.
    >>
    >>:Michael
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > Message: 26
    > Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 00:01:33 -0400
    > From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
    > Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Meet Bob Montgomery
    > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
    > Message-ID: <468DBE9D.8040101 at wfu.edu>
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
    >
    > Meet Bob Montgomery.  He lived on Cyprus in the 1950s.  I rather like
    > his old photos of all of these Durrellian locales in the
    > 1950s--especially since Bob took these shots right before or in the
    > moment that Durrell was writing them up for /Bitter Lemons/ and making
    > them "Durrellian."
    >
    >        http://home.clara.net/bobmonty/index.html
    >
    >
    > Go read Bob's "A different time, a different place" essay and see all of
    > his old photos.
    >
    > Here is something Bob meant as a prose disclaimer but which reads as a
    > little poem.
    >
    >>             This final part contains the remainder of my pictures.
    >>             Thus the answer to the question "Do I have any more ? "
    >>             is  No.
    >>             Some of these seem more interesting than others.
    >>             There are pictures I do not remember taking.
    >>             Some I can only guess what they show.
    >>             And there are others I have absolutely no idea about.
    >>
    >
    > I say thank you, Bob.
    >
    > Charles
    >
    > ***
    >
    >        http://home.clara.net/bobmonty/cyprus55/cyprus55/cyprus55.HTM
    >
    >
    > Kyrenia Harbour
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > The Morris Minor
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Kyrenia Mountains
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Dome Hotel (back)
    >
    >
    >
    > Bellapais
    >
    >
    >
    > -- 
    > **********************
    > Charles L. Sligh
    > Department of English
    > Wake Forest University
    > slighcl at wfu.edu
    > **********************
    >
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    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > ILDS mailing list
    > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
    > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
    >
    >
    > End of ILDS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 8
    > ********************************** 

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  ***************************************
  W. L. Godshalk           *
  Department of English         *
  University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
  Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
  513-281-5927
  *************************************** 


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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Jul  6 12:32:21 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 15:32:21 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- "This Magnetic Island" & "Cyprus After
	Durrell"
In-Reply-To: <2bfc74100707061216l27d45aefs45a1877e2d240047@mail.gmail.com>
References: <10338070.1183742055187.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<39F9D352-2BE8-11DC-947F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<2bfc74100707061216l27d45aefs45a1877e2d240047@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <468E98C5.9050004@wfu.edu>

On 7/6/2007 3:16 PM, James Gifford wrote:

>I might add, Durrell elucidates his political views on Cyprus fairly
>explicitly in his article "This Magnetic Island," which he wrote
>coinciding with the Turkish invasion.  He seems to be neither liberal
>nor conservative, merely practical with an island and people he
>clearly loved.
>
>I can dig up my copy, should it be useful.
>
Dig & send, Jamie.  We should fit out this archive as fully as possible.

Here is one link and article for the listserv.  Test it carefully, as 
you will.  Once upon the Saudis quoted Durrell, opportunistically.

        *Cyprus After Durrell*
        Written by Isobel Fistere
        Photographed by Penny Williams-Yaqub
        http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/197202/cyprus.after.durrell.htm

Saudi Aramco World in 1972 is an interesting historical document.  I 
will leave it to others to analyze the striking "angles"--some of which 
they will be certain to note.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Jul  6 12:33:34 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 15:33:34 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Stendhal and Wyndham Lewis
In-Reply-To: <2bfc74100707061218p1ef578e3p8196d551bcaa272@mail.gmail.com>
References: <13474247.1183742506997.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<BAY108-F1463F9DD0376A1DB572C54B0010@phx.gbl>	<20070706175447.CKAQ3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<2bfc74100707061218p1ef578e3p8196d551bcaa272@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <468E990E.6070407@wfu.edu>

On 7/6/2007 3:18 PM, James Gifford wrote:

>Let's not forget that Durrell wrote an introduction for the French
>edition of Lewis' _Tarr_.  Again, I can post, if anyone is interested
>-- I've done my own translation as well.
>
Post it, Jamie.  Unless you are holding it against the day.  CLS

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************



From richardpin at eircom.net  Fri Jul  6 12:24:01 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 20:24:01 +0100
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- maps
References: <17600873.1183747158137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <026101c7c003$37ad07f0$708ce9d5@rpinelaptop>

When I visited LD in 1988, he had just received the advance copy of The 
Mediterranean Shore . 'I've been analysed by Hogarth!' - he loved the 
recurrence of names (this one of course from Dark Labyrinth). 'I can lend it 
to you overnight, but you must bring it back - this copy - it's for Gerry'. 
And the next day he had had a seizure and I had difficulty gaining access to 
the house and to return the book (which I did).
RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- maps


> We need to get our bearings, as Pamela Francis suggests, with a touch of 
> exasperation, the sigh of "boys will be boys," I think.  Right.  Well, 
> back to my question about maps, why doesn't Durrell insist on any, by and 
> large, for his travel books?  Wouldn't this be a selling point?  The only 
> one I can think of is the one in Sicilian Carousel.  (I suspect Faber made 
> him do it.)  I offer this proposition -- he doesn't want any.  Being a 
> good Romantic, Durrell knows that once you map a territory, it's no longer 
> Romantic.  Maps kill Romanticism.  He wants terra incognita, where he can 
> do as he pleases.  His islands are mythic landscapes, full of exotic names 
> and strange creatures (Aphrodite's hermaphrodites), which he tosses 
> around, notes in the marginalia of his story (like medieval MSS --  
> palimpsests), and makes little or no attempt to be realistic or modern. 
> So, the illustrations are also antique, 19th century or earlier.   They're 
> what was called "picturesque" in the late 18!
> th century.  When we do see contemporary photographs, it's something 
> forced on him, or they're so full of ruins that you think you're 
> accompanying a David Roberts on his journeys through Egypt and the Holy 
> Land.  Anyone see the beautiful picture book, Paul Hogarth's The 
> Mediterranean Shore:  Travels in Lawrence Durrell Country, intro. by LD 
> (1988)?  That's another kind of imaginative recreation of Durrell's world, 
> which he obviously endorsed.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 9:18 PM
>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- cyprus collector
>>
>>I rather like the woodcuts in Bitter Lemons.  A nice Crusader air.  But 
>>why didn't Durrell provide a map of the island?  One is much needed.  For 
>>example, when he lands at Limassol, the southern side of the island, I 
>>have no sense that the taxi drive traverses the fat part of the island to 
>>reach Kyrenia in the north, a journey of perhaps 100 miles.  I guess you 
>>could argue that all the ouzo shortens time and distance.
>>
>>Bruce
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Fri Jul  6 12:44:45 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 21:44:45 +0200
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- "This Magnetic Island" & "Cyprus
 After Durrell"
In-Reply-To: <468E98C5.9050004@wfu.edu>
References: <10338070.1183742055187.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<39F9D352-2BE8-11DC-947F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>	<2bfc74100707061216l27d45aefs45a1877e2d240047@mail.gmail.com>
	<468E98C5.9050004@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <468E9BAD.2050406@interdesign.fr>

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=travel&res=9E03E5D71F3DF936A25757C0A96E958260

slighcl wrote:

> On 7/6/2007 3:16 PM, James Gifford wrote:
> 
>>I might add, Durrell elucidates his political views on Cyprus fairly
>>explicitly in his article "This Magnetic Island," which he wrote
>>coinciding with the Turkish invasion.  He seems to be neither liberal
>>nor conservative, merely practical with an island and people he
>>clearly loved.
>>
>>I can dig up my copy, should it be useful.
>>
> Dig & send, Jamie.  We should fit out this archive as fully as possible.
> 
> Here is one link and article for the listserv.  Test it carefully, as 
> you will.  Once upon the Saudis quoted Durrell, opportunistically.
> 
>         Cyprus After Durrell
>         Written by Isobel Fistere
>         Photographed by Penny Williams-Yaqub
>         http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/197202/cyprus.after.durrell.htm
> 
> Saudi Aramco World in 1972 is an interesting historical document.  I 
> will leave it to others to analyze the striking "angles"--some of which 
> they will be certain to note.
> 
> Charles
> 
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  6 13:18:27 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:18:27 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- maps
Message-ID: <8501226.1183753107972.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Good story.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>Sent: Jul 6, 2007 12:24 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- maps
>
>When I visited LD in 1988, he had just received the advance copy of The 
>Mediterranean Shore . 'I've been analysed by Hogarth!' - he loved the 
>recurrence of names (this one of course from Dark Labyrinth). 'I can lend it 
>to you overnight, but you must bring it back - this copy - it's for Gerry'. 
>And the next day he had had a seizure and I had difficulty gaining access to 
>the house and to return the book (which I did).
>RP
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 7:39 PM
>Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- maps
>
>
>> We need to get our bearings, as Pamela Francis suggests, with a touch of 
>> exasperation, the sigh of "boys will be boys," I think.  Right.  Well, 
>> back to my question about maps, why doesn't Durrell insist on any, by and 
>> large, for his travel books?  Wouldn't this be a selling point?  The only 
>> one I can think of is the one in Sicilian Carousel.  (I suspect Faber made 
>> him do it.)  I offer this proposition -- he doesn't want any.  Being a 
>> good Romantic, Durrell knows that once you map a territory, it's no longer 
>> Romantic.  Maps kill Romanticism.  He wants terra incognita, where he can 
>> do as he pleases.  His islands are mythic landscapes, full of exotic names 
>> and strange creatures (Aphrodite's hermaphrodites), which he tosses 
>> around, notes in the marginalia of his story (like medieval MSS --  
>> palimpsests), and makes little or no attempt to be realistic or modern. 
>> So, the illustrations are also antique, 19th century or earlier.   They're 
>> what was called "picturesque" in the late 18!
>> th century.  When we do see contemporary photographs, it's something 
>> forced on him, or they're so full of ruins that you think you're 
>> accompanying a David Roberts on his journeys through Egypt and the Holy 
>> Land.  Anyone see the beautiful picture book, Paul Hogarth's The 
>> Mediterranean Shore:  Travels in Lawrence Durrell Country, intro. by LD 
>> (1988)?  That's another kind of imaginative recreation of Durrell's world, 
>> which he obviously endorsed.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>>>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 9:18 PM
>>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- cyprus collector
>>>
>>>I rather like the woodcuts in Bitter Lemons.  A nice Crusader air.  But 
>>>why didn't Durrell provide a map of the island?  One is much needed.  For 
>>>example, when he lands at Limassol, the southern side of the island, I 
>>>have no sense that the taxi drive traverses the fat part of the island to 
>>>reach Kyrenia in the north, a journey of perhaps 100 miles.  I guess you 
>>>could argue that all the ouzo shortens time and distance.
>>>
>>>Bruce



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jul  6 13:33:04 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:33:04 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- maps
In-Reply-To: <17600873.1183747158137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa
	.earthlink.net>
References: <17600873.1183747158137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070706203305.JYWI15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  6 13:40:14 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:40:14 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE
Message-ID: <18364667.1183754414634.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Charles, perhaps you could expand on that claim.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 8:14 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE
>
>Has anyone ever put forward a claim that Durrell's poetry from the 
>1950s--/The Tree of Idleness/ &c.--is his strongest verse?
>
>***
>
>            Durrell, Lawrence:  A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE [from Collected
>            Poems: 1931-1974 (1985), Faber and Faber]
>
>            Zarian was saying: Florence is youth,
>            And after it Ravenna, age,
>            Then Venice, second-childhood.
>
>            The pools of burning stone where time
>            And water, the old siege-masters,
>            Have run their saps beneath
>            A thousand saddle-bridges,
>            Puffed up by marble griffins drinking,
>
>            [Page 214 ]
>
>            And all set free to float on loops
>            Of her canals like great intestines
>            Now snapped off like a berg to float,
>            Where now, like others, you have come alone,
>            To trap your sunset in a yellow glass,
>            And watch the silversmith at work
>            Chasing the famous salver of the bay ...
>
>            Here sense dissolves, combines to print only
>            These bitten choirs of stone on water,
>            To the rumble of old cloth bells,
>            The cadging of confetti pigeons,
>            A boatman singing from his long black coffin ...
>
>            To all that has been said before
>            You can add nothing, only that here,
>            Thick as a brushstroke sleep has laid
>            Its fleecy unconcern on every visage,
>
>            At the bottom of every soul a spoonful of sleep.
>
>            1955/1950
>



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jul  6 13:43:16 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:43:16 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Stendhal and Wyndham Lewis
In-Reply-To: <2bfc74100707061218p1ef578e3p8196d551bcaa272@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <13474247.1183742506997.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<BAY108-F1463F9DD0376A1DB572C54B0010@phx.gbl>
	<20070706175447.CKAQ3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<2bfc74100707061218p1ef578e3p8196d551bcaa272@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070706204327.HVUL7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

I'd love to read your translation of Durrell's introduction to the 
Wyndam Lewis novel -- if it is available.

Bill
***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  6 14:51:59 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 14:51:59 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- maps
Message-ID: <4459816.1183758720238.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


Bill, I looked at all of Montgomery's pictures of Cyprus.  I'd rather see the island through Durrell's eyes.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jul 6, 2007 1:33 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- maps
>
>Yeah, Bruce, Bob Montgomery's photo of the Dome really puts stop to theverbal magic. To think of the photo in terms of Kubla Khan's pleasuredome is indeed bombastic, as Charlie has said.
>
>Bill 
>
>Being a good Romantic, Durrell knows that once you map a territory,it's no longer Romantic.  Maps kill Romanticism, writesBruce.
>
>***************************************
>W. L.Godshalk          *
>Department ofEnglish         *
>University ofCincinnati           Stellar disorder  *
>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>513-281-5927
>***************************************


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Jul  6 15:11:25 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 18:11:25 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- "This Magnetic Island" & "Cyprus
 After Durrell"
In-Reply-To: <468E9BAD.2050406@interdesign.fr>
References: <10338070.1183742055187.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<39F9D352-2BE8-11DC-947F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>	<2bfc74100707061216l27d45aefs45a1877e2d240047@mail.gmail.com>	<468E98C5.9050004@wfu.edu>
	<468E9BAD.2050406@interdesign.fr>
Message-ID: <468EBE0D.8020303@wfu.edu>

On 7/6/2007 3:44 PM, Marc Piel wrote:

>http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=travel&res=9E03E5D71F3DF936A25757C0A96E958260
>
Thanks, Marc.  I had read that NYTIMES piece some time ago, but you have 
helped to bring it out.

We are creating something of a dossier with our documents.  All of these 
are notes towards a Durrellian Archive.  What do they tell us?

Whereas Durrell has slipped badly in academic accounts of 
twentieth-century literary history, I find that in treatments of place 
and travel--especially journalistic accounts of place and 
travel--Durrell is still a strong reference point.  If a newspaper 
article in the Guardian or the New York Times treats Corfu or Cyprus or 
Alexandria, then Durrell is still invoked as having something to say.  
That heartens me.

I encourage anyone with Durrellian news or articles to submit here on 
the ILDS listserv and to submit often.  This ILDS listserv, sponsored 
and facilitated by people in the academy and read and built by a larger 
general audience, can do its part to undo the past neglect.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From albigensian at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  6 15:06:15 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 17:06:15 -0500
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE
In-Reply-To: <18364667.1183754414634.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY108-F36B131FAED70B40756FE4AB0010@phx.gbl>

I will be willing to back Charles' claim--and I hope others will take the 
time to explore LD's poetry in more detail.  I also hope that we have a few 
sessions--ok, at least one, on the poetry at the next OMG.  My personal fav 
from this era is Sarajevo, and my as yet unwritten book on English writers 
in the Balkans will be title "a peace harmless with nightingales."  I just 
love that image.  I'm also fond of "Episode", apparently originally titled 
"Nicosia".

But I always wonder, why doesn't anyone read/teach his poetry anymore?  Is 
it overshadowed by LD's fame as a novelist?  Or is it a reflection of a 
general lack of interest in English poetry in mid-century (other 
poet/novelists have suffered the same fate: Robert Graves, Graham 
Greene--yes, Greene wrote poetry--, etc.)  The Norton's entries for the era 
are all decidedly poets--Auden, Dylan Thomas, Philip Larkin.  Do we 
necessarily think of a writer as one or the other (poet or novelist) but 
never both?  Is this sort of ambidexterity seen as sign of inferior talent, 
or maybe wishy-washiness?  In any case, it's a shame, b/c I find LD's poetry 
much more visual than even the Quartet.  In the novels, the characters are 
the thing--in the poetry, the word's the thing.  From "Lesbos":

The Pleiades are sinking calm as paint
And earth's huge camber follows out
Turning in sleep, the oceanic curve,

Defined in concave like a human eye
Or cheek pressed warm on the dark's cheek,
Like dancers to a music they deserve...

I hope that everyone will pick up their Collected Poems and spend an 
afternoon with it. If you've never done this before, it will be like the 
first time you read the first few pages of Justine; if you're familiar with 
the poetry, it will be like the visit of an old friend, celebrated with a 
bottle of the local vintage...

>From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE
>Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:40:14 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
>
>Charles, perhaps you could expand on that claim.
>
>Bruce
>
>-----Original Message-----
> >From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> >Sent: Jul 5, 2007 8:14 PM
> >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE
> >
> >Has anyone ever put forward a claim that Durrell's poetry from the
> >1950s--/The Tree of Idleness/ &c.--is his strongest verse?
> >
> >***
> >
> >            Durrell, Lawrence:  A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE [from Collected
> >            Poems: 1931-1974 (1985), Faber and Faber]
> >
> >            Zarian was saying: Florence is youth,
> >            And after it Ravenna, age,
> >            Then Venice, second-childhood.
> >
> >            The pools of burning stone where time
> >            And water, the old siege-masters,
> >            Have run their saps beneath
> >            A thousand saddle-bridges,
> >            Puffed up by marble griffins drinking,
> >
> >            [Page 214 ]
> >
> >            And all set free to float on loops
> >            Of her canals like great intestines
> >            Now snapped off like a berg to float,
> >            Where now, like others, you have come alone,
> >            To trap your sunset in a yellow glass,
> >            And watch the silversmith at work
> >            Chasing the famous salver of the bay ...
> >
> >            Here sense dissolves, combines to print only
> >            These bitten choirs of stone on water,
> >            To the rumble of old cloth bells,
> >            The cadging of confetti pigeons,
> >            A boatman singing from his long black coffin ...
> >
> >            To all that has been said before
> >            You can add nothing, only that here,
> >            Thick as a brushstroke sleep has laid
> >            Its fleecy unconcern on every visage,
> >
> >            At the bottom of every soul a spoonful of sleep.
> >
> >            1955/1950
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From albigensian at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  6 15:07:44 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 17:07:44 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Stendhal and Wyndham Lewis
In-Reply-To: <20070706204327.HVUL7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY108-F1319F2B623961A05B8FBD4B0010@phx.gbl>

Same here.  I'm just now getting to Lewis--it seems to me he is a lot like 
Ford Madox Ford--more admired among other writers than readers.


>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Stendhal and Wyndham Lewis
>Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:43:16 -0400
>
>I'd love to read your translation of Durrell's introduction to the
>Wyndam Lewis novel -- if it is available.
>
>Bill
>***************************************
>W. L. Godshalk		*
>Department of English         *
>University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>513-281-5927
>***************************************
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  6 15:36:42 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:36:42 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Sexuality
Message-ID: <26987518.1183761402801.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Charles, here's one.  "The Omphalos and the Oracle," L. Durrell, Archaeology Odyssey, Sep/Oct 2001.  The article is a reprint of Durrell's earlier "Delphi" piece (no idea how the editor, Hershel Shanks got the rights to print).  Durrell is used as a lead to the main article on "Eros in Egypt," which is excellent, written by a famous Egyptologist, David O'Connor, who analyzes the representation of sexuality in Ancient Egyptian art.  (Fascinating topic, indeed.)  The blurb on Durrell has a short bio of him, including the egregious error that he fled Cyprus during the 1974 Turkish invasion.  Myth making in progress.  Anyway, Durrell was clearly chosen as a locus classicus, the starting point for a discussion of sex in the Eastern Mediterranean and Ancient Egypt.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Jul 6, 2007 3:11 PM
>To: marcpiel at interdesign.fr, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- "This Magnetic Island" & "Cyprus After Durrell"
>
>On 7/6/2007 3:44 PM, Marc Piel wrote:
>
>>http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=travel&res=9E03E5D71F3DF936A25757C0A96E958260
>>
>Thanks, Marc.  I had read that NYTIMES piece some time ago, but you have 
>helped to bring it out.
>
>We are creating something of a dossier with our documents.  All of these 
>are notes towards a Durrellian Archive.  What do they tell us?
>
>Whereas Durrell has slipped badly in academic accounts of 
>twentieth-century literary history, I find that in treatments of place 
>and travel--especially journalistic accounts of place and 
>travel--Durrell is still a strong reference point.  If a newspaper 
>article in the Guardian or the New York Times treats Corfu or Cyprus or 
>Alexandria, then Durrell is still invoked as having something to say.  
>That heartens me.
>
>I encourage anyone with Durrellian news or articles to submit here on 
>the ILDS listserv and to submit often.  This ILDS listserv, sponsored 
>and facilitated by people in the academy and read and built by a larger 
>general audience, can do its part to undo the past neglect.
>
>Charles



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  6 16:06:56 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 16:06:56 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE
Message-ID: <18311812.1183763216385.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

A good reminder.  Think I'll read a couple this evening before going to sleep.  A note on "Lesbos" and the Pleiades, which Durrell probably based on or was inspired by Sappho's Fragment 168B:  "Moon has set / and Pleiades:  middle / night, the hour goes by, / alone I lie" (If Not Winter:  Fragments of Sappho, Anne Carson, trans., 2002).  Well, that poem, which was very tentatively attributed to Sappho, is now considered hers.  Wilamowitz's, the great German classicist, denied its authenticity, his argument being that the poem was too personal to be Sappho's.  Well, that claim has been overturned with the discovery of a new poem of Sappho's, which is indeed highly personal, fragment 58.  As the world turns, and so much for dogmatic claims of scholarship.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Pamela Francis <albigensian at hotmail.com>
>Sent: Jul 6, 2007 3:06 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- A WATER-COLOUR OF VENICE
>
>I will be willing to back Charles' claim--and I hope others will take the 
>time to explore LD's poetry in more detail.  I also hope that we have a few 
>sessions--ok, at least one, on the poetry at the next OMG.  My personal fav 
>from this era is Sarajevo, and my as yet unwritten book on English writers 
>in the Balkans will be title "a peace harmless with nightingales."  I just 
>love that image.  I'm also fond of "Episode", apparently originally titled 
>"Nicosia".
>
>But I always wonder, why doesn't anyone read/teach his poetry anymore?  Is 
>it overshadowed by LD's fame as a novelist?  Or is it a reflection of a 
>general lack of interest in English poetry in mid-century (other 
>poet/novelists have suffered the same fate: Robert Graves, Graham 
>Greene--yes, Greene wrote poetry--, etc.)  The Norton's entries for the era 
>are all decidedly poets--Auden, Dylan Thomas, Philip Larkin.  Do we 
>necessarily think of a writer as one or the other (poet or novelist) but 
>never both?  Is this sort of ambidexterity seen as sign of inferior talent, 
>or maybe wishy-washiness?  In any case, it's a shame, b/c I find LD's poetry 
>much more visual than even the Quartet.  In the novels, the characters are 
>the thing--in the poetry, the word's the thing.  From "Lesbos":
>
>The Pleiades are sinking calm as paint
>And earth's huge camber follows out
>Turning in sleep, the oceanic curve,
>
>Defined in concave like a human eye
>Or cheek pressed warm on the dark's cheek,
>Like dancers to a music they deserve...
>
>I hope that everyone will pick up their Collected Poems and spend an 
>afternoon with it. If you've never done this before, it will be like the 
>first time you read the first few pages of Justine; if you're familiar with 
>the poetry, it will be like the visit of an old friend, celebrated with a 
>bottle of the local vintage...
>


From bf779 at freenet.carleton.ca  Fri Jul  6 16:24:15 2007
From: bf779 at freenet.carleton.ca (Philip Walsh)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:24:15 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Revolt
In-Reply-To: <2bfc74100707051011m5e824e29mb3d8c2a530f3d643@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C2AD8247.D888%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>
	<468D0F5A.9080703@freenet.carleton.ca>
	<2bfc74100707051011m5e824e29mb3d8c2a530f3d643@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <468ECF1F.4000807@freenet.carleton.ca>

James Gifford wrote:
> It sounds like you have the North American Penguin edition, which
> comes with the list of characters.  I got Durrell's notes for the
> intended revisions out of a Dutton edition (the larger hardcovers with
> the stylized "easter" covers).
>   

No, it's the 1970 Dutton hardcover "First Edition" with a blue dust 
jacket. (Library of Congress number 70-87181)

> Are you at work on Tunc & Nunquam?  
No, I'm retired from teaching and happily my reading (mostly re-reading) 
is mainly for pleasure.

Philip Walsh
Ottawa, Canada


From bf779 at freenet.carleton.ca  Fri Jul  6 16:24:46 2007
From: bf779 at freenet.carleton.ca (Philip Walsh)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:24:46 -0400
Subject: [ilds] DG Bitter Lemons -- more corvo
In-Reply-To: <468DAA11.60702@wfu.edu>
References: <6910016.1183686642116.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<20070706015708.FLHQ15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<468DAA11.60702@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <468ECF3E.6050007@freenet.carleton.ca>

People interested in Corvo/Rolfe might enjoy Pamela Hansford-Johnson's 
novel "The Unspeakable Skipton", which treats this semi-mythological 
character fictionally.

Philip Walsh
Ottawa, Canada


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Jul  6 16:51:06 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:51:06 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Sexuality
In-Reply-To: <26987518.1183761402801.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <26987518.1183761402801.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <468ED56A.90509@wfu.edu>

On 7/6/2007 6:36 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:

>Charles, here's one.  "The Omphalos and the Oracle," L. Durrell, Archaeology Odyssey, Sep/Oct 2001.  The article is a reprint of Durrell's earlier "Delphi" piece (no idea how the editor, Hershel Shanks got the rights to print).  Durrell is used as a lead to the main article on "Eros in Egypt," which is excellent, written by a famous Egyptologist, David O'Connor, who analyzes the representation of sexuality in Ancient Egyptian art.  (Fascinating topic, indeed.)  The blurb on Durrell has a short bio of him, including the egregious error that he fled Cyprus during the 1974 Turkish invasion.  Myth making in progress.  Anyway, Durrell was clearly chosen as a locus classicus, the starting point for a discussion of sex in the Eastern Mediterranean and Ancient Egypt.
>
Thanks, Bruce.  I will pull that from our library. 

Where did that 1974 flight from Cyprus story start?  Why would that make 
sense?  I note that even the village locals will repeat the misguided claim:

>         'All we know is that this guy never liked us,'' said Ozkan
>         Tatlisulu, a local grocer. ''After we arrived in 1974 he
>         immediately sold his house and moved away. Probably he didn't
>         want to live with us.''
>
>         That is not true, because by 1974 Durrell had long since
>         settled in southern France, where he died in 1990. His house
>         has had several owners since he departed, and whoever was
>         inside this month wisely declined to answer the door when
>         curious tourists came knocking.
>
>         http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E03E5D71F3DF936A25757C0A96E958260&sec=travel

Credit to the NYTIMES reporter for clipping wing'd rumor.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Jul  6 17:14:34 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:14:34 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Eastern Landfall & Bursting
	Colour-Boxes
In-Reply-To: <468D5EE4.2040909@wfu.edu>
References: <008301c7bddb$073fd5e0$0202a8c0@MumandDad>
	<468D0E5A.8070704@wfu.edu> <468D5EE4.2040909@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <468EDAEA.5050908@wfu.edu>

I believe that I misdirected this note.  CLS

On 7/5/2007 5:13 PM, slighcl wrote:

> In the beginning there were the words:
>
>         It was as if some great master, stricken by dementia, had
>         burst his whole colour-box against the sky to deafen the inner
>         eye of the world.  Cloud and water mixed into each other,
>         dripping with colours, merging, overlapping, liquefying, with
>         steeples and balconies and roofs floating in space, like the
>         fragments of some stained glass window seen through a dozen
>         veils of rice-paper.  Fragments of history touched with the
>         colours of wine, tar, ochre, blood, fire-opal and ripening
>         grain.  The whole at the same time being rinsed softly back at
>         the edges into a dawn sky as softly as circumspectly blue as a
>         pigeon's egg. ("Towards an Eastern Landfall")
>
> I will try hard not to violate enjoyment of that language as language, 
> that image as an image.   To open a chapter thus in Venice and close 
> it later on Cyprus--with Coleridge's "Kubla Khan," comically 
> gesticulated into the air by a taxi driver as he discards an (emptied) 
> bottle of /ouzo/--well, that is something indeed.
>
> I do note that, if I read /Bitter Lemons/ as a series of 
> "impressions," I cannot help the "impression" that this spectacularly 
> exploding paint-box works well within an impressive chapter in which 
> other things explode, often with great beauty.  Cf. Durrell's 
> discovery of Mrs. Lewis during "a riot after a bomb-throwing": 
>
>         /A Lady's Impressions of Cyprus/ stared up at me from a jumble
>         of fruits and books, a whole drift of smashed second-hand
>         discs[. . . .]  The gutters were running mournfully with wine
>         which on the black tarmac looked like blood.  The whole
>         contents of a toy-shop had been blown into the street, giving
>         it all a carnival air. ("Towards an Eastern Landfall")
>
> So violence and beauty can indeed compliment each other.  I hope 
> others will speak to this.
>
> Finally, I offer up for its own sake some of Ruskin's Venice to set 
> against Durrell's.  (This passage comes right after Ruskin has invoked 
> Tyre as an earlier sea empire, precursor to Venice.):
>
>>Her successor, like her in perfection of beauty, though less in
>>endurance of dominion, is still left for our beholding in the final
>>period of her decline: a ghost upon the sands of the sea, so weak--so
>>quiet,--so bereft of all but her loveliness, that we might well doubt,
>>as we watched her faint reflection in the mirage of the lagoon, which
>>was the City, and which the Shadow.
>>
>>I would endeavor to trace the lines of this image before it be for ever
>>lost, and to record, as far as I may, the warning which seems to me to
>>be uttered by every one of the fast-gaining waves, that beat, like
>>passing bells, against the STONES OF VENICE.
>>
> Robert Byron's /Road to Oxiana/ (1937) also makes a memorable start in 
> Venice and then stops a bit in Cyprus.  

> I like Byron's observation that "the Doge's Palace looked more 
> beautiful from a speed-boat than it ever had from a gondola." 

> Charles
>
>-- 
>**********************
>Charles L. Sligh
>Department of English
>Wake Forest University
>slighcl at wfu.edu
>**********************
>

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Jul  6 17:15:29 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:15:29 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Eastern Landfal, Geography Lesson,
 & The Tavern Door
In-Reply-To: <468D5EE4.2040909@wfu.edu>
References: <008301c7bddb$073fd5e0$0202a8c0@MumandDad>
	<468D0E5A.8070704@wfu.edu> <468D5EE4.2040909@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <468EDB21.2090904@wfu.edu>

Let's extend our range in /Bitter Lemons/.

As we work our way through

        Chapter 2: A Geography Lesson

                -- and --

        Chapter 3: Voices at the Tavern Door

perhaps we can glance back every once and a while at Chapter 1: Towards 
an Eastern Landfall.

Our itinerary includes:

        Panos, Michael, & Philip
        Manoli the Chemist
        General Envy
        Frangos
        Clito, his wife, his daughter, and his mother-in-law (!)
        Clito's Victorian Print

/Kopiaste/

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jul  6 17:47:52 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:47:52 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Wyndham Lewis
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F1319F2B623961A05B8FBD4B0010@phx.gbl>
References: <20070706204327.HVUL7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<BAY108-F1319F2B623961A05B8FBD4B0010@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070707004754.EFKD3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Jul  6 18:13:22 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 21:13:22 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Corfu without the crowds
In-Reply-To: <468EDB21.2090904@wfu.edu>
References: <008301c7bddb$073fd5e0$0202a8c0@MumandDad>	<468D0E5A.8070704@wfu.edu>
	<468D5EE4.2040909@wfu.edu> <468EDB21.2090904@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <468EE8B2.9040502@wfu.edu>

*Corfu without the crowds*
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 07/07/2007
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/main.jhtml?xml=/travel/2007/07/07/et-corfu-107.xml
Put away your prejudices about the island and visit its north-eastern 
coastline.
Fred Mawer offers a guide.

>         The two other main villagey resorts south of Agios Stefanos
>         are not as appealing as bases as those described above. Kalami
>         - location of the White House, the former home of the author
>         Lawrence Durrell, and now a taverna and house for rent
>         (through CV Travel) - is, by the high standards of this part
>         of Corfu, overdeveloped, with apartment blocks dominating the
>         hillside. Nissaki has a cluster of beautifully sited
>         waterfront tavernas, but it lacks a focal point, and too much
>         of it is by the main road.

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Fri Jul  6 19:05:53 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 03:05:53 +0100
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
Message-ID: <9758E4A8-2C2E-11DC-930B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

 From the Questions Answered column in The Times, 6 July 2007:


Can anyone define what postmodern thought is?

Postmodernists believe there is no knowledge or truth, only 
?discourse?. However, they also tend to hold that modish left-wing 
views are absolutely true and that anyone who opposes these should be 
persecuted.

Andrew M. Chisholm, Thames Ditton, Surrey

I was recently told that Modernism was the age of reason, in which any 
religious beliefs were decried as being irrational. Postmodern thought, 
however, takes things to the opposite extreme, in that it regards all 
values as being equally valid. In other words Christianity is placed on 
a par with those who think there is a man in the moon, which is made of 
green cheese.

Tim Mickleburgh, Grimsby, Lincolnshire 
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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Fri Jul  6 19:06:20 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:06:20 -0600
Subject: [ilds] Wyndham Lewis
In-Reply-To: <20070707004754.EFKD3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <20070706204327.HVUL7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>	<BAY108-F1319F2B623961A05B8FBD4B0010@phx.gbl>
	<20070707004754.EFKD3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <468EF51C.4030109@gmail.com>

Alas, I can't find my translation at the moment -- nonetheless, the 
French here is very simple. I always enjoy reading French written by an 
Anglophone...

I transcribed this courtesy of the University of Victoria's new Wyndham 
Lewis collection, which is not yet catalogued. It's something on the 
order of two 7' x 7' shelving units of Lewis print materials.

Cheers,
James

--------------------

Lewis, Wyndham. Tarr. Trans. Bernard Lafourcade. Paris: Christian 
Bourgois Editeur, 1970.



A PROPOS DE TARR

Par Lawrence Durrell

Quand il apprit la mort de Lewis, T.S. Eliot
D?clara dans un interview donn? au London Times :
? Un grand ?crivain anglais vient de mouriri. ?
la post?rit? ne contredira pas ce jugement, car
les dons de Lewis le rangent, sans conteste, en
compagnie d?artistes tels que Joyce et Lawrence.
Sis a reputation est rest?e obscurie par une sorte
de nuage, il n?est pas difficile d?en trouver les rai-
sons. Ce n?est pas seulment d? ? la brochure mal
avis?e qu?il ?crivit ? la gloire d?Hitler (c??tait tout
au commencement, avant qu?on ne s?t grand-
chose des Nazis et de leurs intentions). N?anmoins,
comme Pound et C?line, il ?tait ennemi de la gau-
che et, comme eux, il poussait l?anticommunisme
jusqu?? l?absurdit?. Je ne veux pas dire qu?il soit
possible d?imaginer le philosophe et romancier
Lewis professant des opinions sans g?n?rosit?.
Mais la gauche ressentait n?anmoins le fouet
de ses satires.
L?autre raison ?tait que Lewis ?tait ? multidis-

567

ciplinaire ?, un genre d?animal tr?s redout? des
?diteurs. Ses trios importants essays philosophi-
ques ont eu grand success, en particulier Time
and the Western Man (Le Temps et l?Homme
occidental). C??tait un peintre de talent. Ses
romans, satiriques et mordants, ?taient pleins de
p?n?tration, ?crits avec vivacit?, sans temps morts.
Sa prose a un caract?re tr?s personnel et fourmille
d?images frappantes. Mais il dispersait son ?ner-
gie et gaspillait ses dons, pr?f?rant la plupart du
temps s?adonner ? la satire.
Tarr est son premier roman et, ? mon avis, le
Meilleur qu?il ait ?crit. Compos? pendant le guerre
de 1914 et r?cit juste apr?s, il supporte ? son
avantage la comparaison avec les meilleures ?u-
vres de Graves, Aldington et Lawrence.
Il serait heureux de conna?tre la renaissance ?
Paris de ce roman, le premier enfant de son cer-
veau. Il aimant la langue fran?aise et la connais-
sait bien ? des passages entiers de Snooty Baro-
net ont ?t? ?crits directement en fran?ais.
Je veux croire que ce grand roman trouvera
un public parmi tous les amoureux de la bonne
literature.
L.D.


568



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jul  6 19:31:54 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 22:31:54 -0400
Subject: [ilds] what is truth?
In-Reply-To: <9758E4A8-2C2E-11DC-930B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <9758E4A8-2C2E-11DC-930B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070707023156.IXUO7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Fri Jul  6 19:43:59 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 03:43:59 +0100
Subject: [ilds] sincerity
Message-ID: <E9C43E9C-2C33-11DC-930B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

'... these Marxists, like Terry Eagleton at Oxford. Do you know what he 
makes? Do you know the salary that man makes? Oh, it just disgusts me. 
This is why he has to wear blue jeans, to show, "Oh, no, I don't have 
the money." These people are hypocrites! They really are. It's all a 
literary game.'  -- Camille Paglia
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Fri Jul  6 19:48:50 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 03:48:50 +0100
Subject: [ilds] archaeology
Message-ID: <9749B31A-2C34-11DC-930B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

  I wanted to be an archaeologist early on. I think that is one of the 
things that separates me from others in literary studies today. My 
sense of time-frame is so vast compared to that of people in English 
departments. When I think about sex, when I think about anything in 
culture, I'm thinking about a 10,000-year time span, you see, and this 
is what causes a communication problem with feminists, because most of 
them, as far as I can see, tend to have their specialties in the late 
eighteenth century or following. There are a few who have training 
earlier, but they tend to be very narrowly focused even in that one 
area. I think my broad expanse of learning and my already 
world-consciousness--coming from my early passion, when I was, like, 
four practically, to be an Egyptologist--I was just fascinated with 
Egypt and began studying it very early on--I think that huge time-frame 
that I have has been enormously advantageous. And it's one of the 
reasons, again, why I'm not understood by feminists, though I am 
understood by historians. The fan letters--I mean, it's absurd--the fan 
letters that I get from historians, from political scientists, from 
philosophers, from art historians, and so on and so forth. The bunkers 
are just the literature departments and the feminists--they're all in 
league with each other: "Oh, no, she's horrible! She's horrible!" Why? 
Because I'm challenging the scholarship of everything. I'm challenging 
their scholarship, which I think is absolutely amateurish. It will not 
serve women to base a sex theory on shoddy scholarship. We cannot have 
this. We cannot have this second-rateness. It's epidemic everywhere.
-- Camille Paglia
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Fri Jul  6 20:08:44 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:08:44 +0100
Subject: [ilds] history
Message-ID: <5EE5EB62-2C37-11DC-930B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

I feel that learning has to be brought back to the center of the 
humanities curriculum. I can see what happened. What happened was that 
the old bibliographical style of literary scholarship had become 
totally enervated and dead, and then New Criticism rose up in the 
Twenties, Thirties, Forties--and then it really started dying in the 
Fifties--as a way to talk about the literary and artistic qualities of 
a text. And then unfortunately that detached itself entirely from any 
historical context, and you got a whole generation of critics who came 
through who have absolutely no historical sense whatever--they haven't 
been trained to think in historical terms.  -- Camille Paglia
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jul  6 20:25:21 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 23:25:21 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Camille and history
In-Reply-To: <5EE5EB62-2C37-11DC-930B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <5EE5EB62-2C37-11DC-930B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070707032603.LGGE15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From albigensian at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  6 19:46:01 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 21:46:01 -0500
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <9758E4A8-2C2E-11DC-930B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <BAY108-F407D818E33AD3AEF9D1D1BB0000@phx.gbl>

Though I can't completely disagree with Lincolnshire's equating of Xnty with 
those who believe in the man in the moon, he and Surrey have illustrated the 
common misconception of postmodern thought--and not without some reason, as 
that is how it is quite often presented to the Great Unread Public.  But the 
case of David Irving (Holocaust Denier par excellence) demonstrated--to 
those that were paying attention--that postmodernist thought must be based 
on REASONABLE debate.  Even though, as postmodernists, we may question who 
has written history and from what location--in other words, we must question 
metanarratives--we also must question the questioning.  In this case, it is 
clear that questioning the metanarrative--with all its repercussions for 
current prejudices and acts of ethnic cleansing--cannot be questioned for 
any other reason than hatred, that is, the continued perpetuation of 
violence against certain ethnic and/or cultural identities.  If the 
questioning of Holocaust metanarratives cannot bring about anything other 
than more hatred, it is an unreasonable debate, one which brings justice to 
absolutely NO ONE.

On the surface, this tends to support the politically liberal point of view, 
which many of the Great Unread Public equate with 
nambypambyloveandpeaceforeveryoneness.  But I find considerable logic in the 
argument that the "questioning", i.e., the denial of the Holocaust cannot 
bring about any hidden injustices to those who (I, and I think most of you 
as well) believe perpetuated the mass murder of Jews, Poles, homosexuals, 
and gypsies (to name only a few of Hitler's victims).  In other words, this 
denial redeems no one.  In that sense, then, it is not reasonable, and 
therefore is not an example of postmodern theory in praxis.

Having said all that, it is sometimes very tempting to tell confused 
undergraduates that postmodernism is the idea that all ideas are valid.  
It's just so much easier than being, well, reasonable...


>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] baboonism
>Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 03:05:53 +0100
>
>From the Questions Answered column in The Times, 6 July 2007:
>
>
>Can anyone define what postmodern thought is?
>
>Postmodernists believe there is no knowledge or truth, only ?discourse?. 
>However, they also tend to hold that modish left-wing views are absolutely 
>true and that anyone who opposes these should be persecuted.
>
>Andrew M. Chisholm, Thames Ditton, Surrey
>
>I was recently told that Modernism was the age of reason, in which any 
>religious beliefs were decried as being irrational. Postmodern thought, 
>however, takes things to the opposite extreme, in that it regards all 
>values as being equally valid. In other words Christianity is placed on a 
>par with those who think there is a man in the moon, which is made of green 
>cheese.
>
>Tim Mickleburgh, Grimsby, Lincolnshire


>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Fri Jul  6 20:46:37 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:46:37 +0100
Subject: [ilds] underwear and postmodernism
Message-ID: <A9EB3AFA-2C3C-11DC-B709-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

The underwear theory of history

Does history have a meaning? If you're of a postmodernist turn of mind 
you may like to stop reading right here. But it's possible. History 
could have a meaning in the way that Liverpool's failure to win the 
premiership year after year has a meaning. I don't intend, here, that 
that failure has its place within an organized system of significations 
commonly shared within a community of language-users, the community, 
namely, of Manchester United supporters - though it does. I mean, 
rather, that Liverpool's repeated failure is not just a haphazard 
number of occurrences thrown together by the onward rush of football 
seasons. No, it exhibits an intelligible pattern with underlying causes.

Anyway, I stray from my main purpose. This is to point out the number 
of stories in the news at the moment which centre upon underwear. First 
we have that Joseph Corre, of the global lingerie brand Agent 
Provocateur, has turned down an MBE because, he says, Tony Blair is 
morally corrupt. Next, I see that...
La Scala opera house said Wednesday it had changed course and will 
premiere a production of Candide that it had cancelled after criticism 
of a scene in which actors danced in underwear while wearing masks of 
U.S. President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair.
As the report goes on to inform us, director Robert Carsen said that ' 
the underwear scene would remain '. And a road in County Durham has 
collapsed after a sewer pipe beneath it burst. Some underwear was 
blocking the pipe :
"If the underwear had not been flushed down the toilet, this would not 
have happened. It was very irresponsible behaviour," said a spokesman...
And then this :
Women MPs in Israel's Knesset have criticised the foreign ministry for 
resorting to "pornography" to promote Israel abroad after a feature 
appeared in the men's magazine Maxim featuring four former soldiers 
photographed in their underwear.

The magazine carried the article, The Women of the Israel Defence 
Force...
It's hard not to see the hidden pattern. Not only Blair (twice) and 
Bush; not only a sewer, hinting at both the submerged character of the 
pattern and the unseemliness of its content; not only the Zionist 
entity - but all strangely linked by underwear . If you reflect that 
underwear is usually worn in a hidden sort of way, you will not be able 
to back away from the conclusion that has forced itself on me: that 
mysterious subterranean causes now threaten us with an earthquake, or a 
tidal wave, of... underwear, probably. 
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From vcel at ix.netcom.com  Fri Jul  6 21:32:19 2007
From: vcel at ix.netcom.com (Vittorio Celentano)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 00:32:19 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
References: <BAY108-F407D818E33AD3AEF9D1D1BB0000@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <001201c7c04f$cf375d90$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>

Pamela and others:

Lawrence Durrell is listed as a postmodern author in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_literature

Vittorio
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pamela Francis" <albigensian at hotmail.com>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism


> Though I can't completely disagree with Lincolnshire's equating of Xnty
with
> those who believe in the man in the moon, he and Surrey have illustrated
the
> common misconception of postmodern thought--and not without some reason,
as
> that is how it is quite often presented to the Great Unread Public.  But
the
> case of David Irving (Holocaust Denier par excellence) demonstrated--to
> those that were paying attention--that postmodernist thought must be based
> on REASONABLE debate.  Even though, as postmodernists, we may question who
> has written history and from what location--in other words, we must
question
> metanarratives--we also must question the questioning.  In this case, it
is
> clear that questioning the metanarrative--with all its repercussions for
> current prejudices and acts of ethnic cleansing--cannot be questioned for
> any other reason than hatred, that is, the continued perpetuation of
> violence against certain ethnic and/or cultural identities.  If the
> questioning of Holocaust metanarratives cannot bring about anything other
> than more hatred, it is an unreasonable debate, one which brings justice
to
> absolutely NO ONE.
>
> On the surface, this tends to support the politically liberal point of
view,
> which many of the Great Unread Public equate with
> nambypambyloveandpeaceforeveryoneness.  But I find considerable logic in
the
> argument that the "questioning", i.e., the denial of the Holocaust cannot
> bring about any hidden injustices to those who (I, and I think most of you
> as well) believe perpetuated the mass murder of Jews, Poles, homosexuals,
> and gypsies (to name only a few of Hitler's victims).  In other words, thi
s
> denial redeems no one.  In that sense, then, it is not reasonable, and
> therefore is not an example of postmodern theory in praxis.
>
> Having said all that, it is sometimes very tempting to tell confused
> undergraduates that postmodernism is the idea that all ideas are valid.
> It's just so much easier than being, well, reasonable...
>
>
> >From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> >Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >Subject: [ilds] baboonism
> >Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 03:05:53 +0100
> >
> >From the Questions Answered column in The Times, 6 July 2007:
> >
> >
> >Can anyone define what postmodern thought is?
> >
> >Postmodernists believe there is no knowledge or truth, only "discourse".
> >However, they also tend to hold that modish left-wing views are
absolutely
> >true and that anyone who opposes these should be persecuted.
> >
> >Andrew M. Chisholm, Thames Ditton, Surrey
> >
> >I was recently told that Modernism was the age of reason, in which any
> >religious beliefs were decried as being irrational. Postmodern thought,
> >however, takes things to the opposite extreme, in that it regards all
> >values as being equally valid. In other words Christianity is placed on a
> >par with those who think there is a man in the moon, which is made of
green
> >cheese.
> >
> >Tim Mickleburgh, Grimsby, Lincolnshire
>
>
> >_______________________________________________
> >ILDS mailing list
> >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----


> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jul  6 21:53:02 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 00:53:02 -0400
Subject: [ilds] underwear and drinking men
In-Reply-To: <A9EB3AFA-2C3C-11DC-B709-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <A9EB3AFA-2C3C-11DC-B709-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070707045328.LKEA15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jul  6 22:06:14 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 01:06:14 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F407D818E33AD3AEF9D1D1BB0000@phx.gbl>
References: <9758E4A8-2C2E-11DC-930B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<BAY108-F407D818E33AD3AEF9D1D1BB0000@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070707050615.JFTK7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From albigensian at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  6 23:49:23 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 01:49:23 -0500
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <001201c7c04f$cf375d90$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>
Message-ID: <BAY108-F3084C41CBA3CCA0A7571F9B0000@phx.gbl>

The wikipedia list of postmodern authors demonstrates that the border 
between modernism and postmodernism is leaky at best and sometimes 
completely disolved; William Faulkner, Saul Bellow, Flannery o'Connor--John 
Updike?  as postmodernists?  i can see the case for each (if I look 
hard)--and I certainly read the Quintet as postmodern.  So what does really 
distinguish the mod from the postmod?  And do we really have to have the 
distinction? What purpose can such labels--esp.since they are only 
nominal---serve?
Just wondering--Pamela


>From: "Vittorio Celentano" <vcel at ix.netcom.com>
>Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 00:32:19 -0400
>
>Pamela and others:
>
>Lawrence Durrell is listed as a postmodern author in
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_literature
>
>Vittorio
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Pamela Francis" <albigensian at hotmail.com>
>To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:46 PM
>Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>
>
> > Though I can't completely disagree with Lincolnshire's equating of Xnty
>with
> > those who believe in the man in the moon, he and Surrey have illustrated
>the
> > common misconception of postmodern thought--and not without some reason,
>as
> > that is how it is quite often presented to the Great Unread Public.  But
>the
> > case of David Irving (Holocaust Denier par excellence) demonstrated--to
> > those that were paying attention--that postmodernist thought must be 
>based
> > on REASONABLE debate.  Even though, as postmodernists, we may question 
>who
> > has written history and from what location--in other words, we must
>question
> > metanarratives--we also must question the questioning.  In this case, it
>is
> > clear that questioning the metanarrative--with all its repercussions for
> > current prejudices and acts of ethnic cleansing--cannot be questioned 
>for
> > any other reason than hatred, that is, the continued perpetuation of
> > violence against certain ethnic and/or cultural identities.  If the
> > questioning of Holocaust metanarratives cannot bring about anything 
>other
> > than more hatred, it is an unreasonable debate, one which brings justice
>to
> > absolutely NO ONE.
> >
> > On the surface, this tends to support the politically liberal point of
>view,
> > which many of the Great Unread Public equate with
> > nambypambyloveandpeaceforeveryoneness.  But I find considerable logic in
>the
> > argument that the "questioning", i.e., the denial of the Holocaust 
>cannot
> > bring about any hidden injustices to those who (I, and I think most of 
>you
> > as well) believe perpetuated the mass murder of Jews, Poles, 
>homosexuals,
> > and gypsies (to name only a few of Hitler's victims).  In other words, 
>thi
>s
> > denial redeems no one.  In that sense, then, it is not reasonable, and
> > therefore is not an example of postmodern theory in praxis.
> >
> > Having said all that, it is sometimes very tempting to tell confused
> > undergraduates that postmodernism is the idea that all ideas are valid.
> > It's just so much easier than being, well, reasonable...
> >
> >
> > >From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> > >Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> > >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> > >Subject: [ilds] baboonism
> > >Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 03:05:53 +0100
> > >
> > >From the Questions Answered column in The Times, 6 July 2007:
> > >
> > >
> > >Can anyone define what postmodern thought is?
> > >
> > >Postmodernists believe there is no knowledge or truth, only 
>"discourse".
> > >However, they also tend to hold that modish left-wing views are
>absolutely
> > >true and that anyone who opposes these should be persecuted.
> > >
> > >Andrew M. Chisholm, Thames Ditton, Surrey
> > >
> > >I was recently told that Modernism was the age of reason, in which any
> > >religious beliefs were decried as being irrational. Postmodern thought,
> > >however, takes things to the opposite extreme, in that it regards all
> > >values as being equally valid. In other words Christianity is placed on 
>a
> > >par with those who think there is a man in the moon, which is made of
>green
> > >cheese.
> > >
> > >Tim Mickleburgh, Grimsby, Lincolnshire
> >
> >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >ILDS mailing list
> > >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>----
>
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > ILDS mailing list
> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 04:44:09 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 12:44:09 +0100
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F3084C41CBA3CCA0A7571F9B0000@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5FE9D01A-2C7F-11DC-AC5A-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

I would have thought that a postmodernist would reject labels of any  
sort whatsoever.  Labels are like definitions and standards, and how  
can you have definitions and standards when there is nothing but  
'discourse' or, as James explained Durrell once, 'whim'.  How indeed  
can you have reasonableness?  Who decides, and how, whether one whim is  
more reasonable than another?  And under such circumstances what does  
reasonable mean anyway.  More whimable, perhaps.  Durrell strikes me as  
having had standards, a definite point of view.

:Michael



On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 07:49  am, Pamela Francis wrote:

> The wikipedia list of postmodern authors demonstrates that the border
> between modernism and postmodernism is leaky at best and sometimes
> completely disolved; William Faulkner, Saul Bellow, Flannery  
> o'Connor--John
> Updike?  as postmodernists?  i can see the case for each (if I look
> hard)--and I certainly read the Quintet as postmodern.  So what does  
> really
> distinguish the mod from the postmod?  And do we really have to have  
> the
> distinction? What purpose can such labels--esp.since they are only
> nominal---serve?
> Just wondering--Pamela
>
>
>> From: "Vittorio Celentano" <vcel at ix.netcom.com>
>> Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>> Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 00:32:19 -0400
>>
>> Pamela and others:
>>
>> Lawrence Durrell is listed as a postmodern author in
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_literature
>>
>> Vittorio
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Pamela Francis" <albigensian at hotmail.com>
>> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>>
>>
>>> Though I can't completely disagree with Lincolnshire's equating of  
>>> Xnty
>> with
>>> those who believe in the man in the moon, he and Surrey have  
>>> illustrated
>> the
>>> common misconception of postmodern thought--and not without some  
>>> reason,
>> as
>>> that is how it is quite often presented to the Great Unread Public.   
>>> But
>> the
>>> case of David Irving (Holocaust Denier par excellence)  
>>> demonstrated--to
>>> those that were paying attention--that postmodernist thought must be
>> based
>>> on REASONABLE debate.  Even though, as postmodernists, we may  
>>> question
>> who
>>> has written history and from what location--in other words, we must
>> question
>>> metanarratives--we also must question the questioning.  In this  
>>> case, it
>> is
>>> clear that questioning the metanarrative--with all its repercussions  
>>> for
>>> current prejudices and acts of ethnic cleansing--cannot be questioned
>> for
>>> any other reason than hatred, that is, the continued perpetuation of
>>> violence against certain ethnic and/or cultural identities.  If the
>>> questioning of Holocaust metanarratives cannot bring about anything
>> other
>>> than more hatred, it is an unreasonable debate, one which brings  
>>> justice
>> to
>>> absolutely NO ONE.
>>>
>>> On the surface, this tends to support the politically liberal point  
>>> of
>> view,
>>> which many of the Great Unread Public equate with
>>> nambypambyloveandpeaceforeveryoneness.  But I find considerable  
>>> logic in
>> the
>>> argument that the "questioning", i.e., the denial of the Holocaust
>> cannot
>>> bring about any hidden injustices to those who (I, and I think most  
>>> of
>> you
>>> as well) believe perpetuated the mass murder of Jews, Poles,
>> homosexuals,
>>> and gypsies (to name only a few of Hitler's victims).  In other  
>>> words,
>> thi
>> s
>>> denial redeems no one.  In that sense, then, it is not reasonable,  
>>> and
>>> therefore is not an example of postmodern theory in praxis.
>>>
>>> Having said all that, it is sometimes very tempting to tell confused
>>> undergraduates that postmodernism is the idea that all ideas are  
>>> valid.
>>> It's just so much easier than being, well, reasonable...
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>>> Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> Subject: [ilds] baboonism
>>>> Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 03:05:53 +0100
>>>>
>>>> From the Questions Answered column in The Times, 6 July 2007:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone define what postmodern thought is?
>>>>
>>>> Postmodernists believe there is no knowledge or truth, only
>> "discourse".
>>>> However, they also tend to hold that modish left-wing views are
>> absolutely
>>>> true and that anyone who opposes these should be persecuted.
>>>>
>>>> Andrew M. Chisholm, Thames Ditton, Surrey
>>>>
>>>> I was recently told that Modernism was the age of reason, in which  
>>>> any
>>>> religious beliefs were decried as being irrational. Postmodern  
>>>> thought,
>>>> however, takes things to the opposite extreme, in that it regards  
>>>> all
>>>> values as being equally valid. In other words Christianity is  
>>>> placed on
>> a
>>>> par with those who think there is a man in the moon, which is made  
>>>> of
>> green
>>>> cheese.
>>>>
>>>> Tim Mickleburgh, Grimsby, Lincolnshire
>>>
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ILDS mailing list
>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> ------
>> ----
>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 05:38:33 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 13:38:33 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Bitter Lemons pp 21 and 35
Message-ID: <F95B0B51-2C86-11DC-A513-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

A couple of things that have caught my eye in these opening pages of 
Bitter Lemons (page numbers refer to the earlier hardback and paperback 
editions, not the newest small format mass paperback):

1) p21, Towards an Eastern Landfall: 'I picked Mrs Lewis off an 
overturned bookstall in Trieste.  There had been a riot after a 
bomb-throwing, and I was hurrying back to my hotel from the 
observation-ward of the hospital'.

A remarkably packed sentence, full of biographical hintings about which 
one could write a book.  Madness past and future, and the sensible Mrs 
Lewis.

2) p35, Voices at the Tavern Door: 'But are these choking suburbanisms 
with which we seem infused when we are abroad any worse than the 
tireless dissimulation and insincerity of the Mediterranean way of 
life?  I doubt it'.

Again Durrell not quite repudiating the very type of Englishness he 
usually so loathes.  No doubt, he says, a few lines above this, Malta 
and Gibraltar have similar colonies; though it is also the suburbanism 
of South London where Durrell grew up, and the suburbanism of much of 
British Indian life.  Here Durrell is being tender enough towards it, 
and towards his British readers, as we face the outrages and madness 
and the bitter lemons that lie ahead.

:Michael


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sat Jul  7 05:37:06 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 08:37:06 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <001201c7c04f$cf375d90$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>
References: <BAY108-F407D818E33AD3AEF9D1D1BB0000@phx.gbl>
	<001201c7c04f$cf375d90$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>
Message-ID: <468F88F2.6080002@wfu.edu>

On 7/7/2007 12:32 AM, Vittorio Celentano wrote:

>Pamela and others:
>
>Lawrence Durrell is listed as a postmodern author in
>      
>
>             http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_literature
>
Yet Durrell has been rejected (quite soundly and at length) as not 
having been sufficiently postmodern.  There are those who would police 
membership in this (now-dated) late twentieth century club:

        Postmodernist theory rejects the nostalgic longing for unity and
        welcomes radical plurality as a challenge, an opening towards
        the future, not as a loss but a gain in perspective. . . .  It
        is this plural notion of alterity and difference which Durrell's
        writings and their gnostic world view ultimately foreclose.  In
        Durrell, the freedom 'promised' within the process of
        pluralization is always taken back.  Instead, it invokes a
        notion of the entirely Other as the mystical 'one' which negates
        the difference (Herbrechter--_Lawrence Durrell, Postmodernism,
        and the Ethics of Alterity_ 164)

When criticism follows that sort of political program and 
rigidly-defined pattern, the whole business becomes quite easy, doesn't 
it? 

I will translate what is written above, some of which may be 
untranslatable:   This is _____.  Durrell is not _______.  Durrell 
"forecloses."  Durrell "takes back."  Durrell "negates."    The pm 
critics expose Durrell as a crypto-modernist, and all good pm critics 
know that the modernists were fascists.  That is why pm critics use 
police language to disguise their own policing.

These days I think it safer and smarter to leave those old terms behind, 
back in the 1990s.  Look more closely.  Then look again.   
Discrimination, in the Paterian sense, is needed.  And then more laughter.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 05:46:28 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 13:46:28 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Fwd:  baboonism
Message-ID: <144C2D52-2C88-11DC-A513-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Fixed stars, I should have added.

:Michael

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007  12:44:09  pm Europe/London
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>
> I would have thought that a postmodernist would reject labels of any 
> sort whatsoever.  Labels are like definitions and standards, and how 
> can you have definitions and standards when there is nothing but 
> 'discourse' or, as James explained Durrell once, 'whim'.  How indeed 
> can you have reasonableness?  Who decides, and how, whether one whim 
> is more reasonable than another?  And under such circumstances what 
> does reasonable mean anyway.  More whimable, perhaps.  Durrell strikes 
> me as having had standards, a definite point of view.
>
> :Michael
>


From richardpin at eircom.net  Sat Jul  7 02:02:41 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 10:02:41 +0100
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- "This Magnetic Island" & "Cyprus
	After Durrell"
References: <10338070.1183742055187.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<39F9D352-2BE8-11DC-947F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>	<2bfc74100707061216l27d45aefs45a1877e2d240047@mail.gmail.com>	<468E98C5.9050004@wfu.edu><468E9BAD.2050406@interdesign.fr>
	<468EBE0D.8020303@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <006401c7c075$966c1200$f5461359@rpinelaptop>

The Durrell School of Corfu has an ever-growing hard-copy archive of everything we can acquire either electronically or at affordable prices. This includes a very large number of Masters and PhD theses, conference papers, learned journal articles etc.
Anyone wishing to contribute their own, or anyone else's writings on either Lawrence or Gerald Durrell, please send to: durrells at otenet.gr, with 'Donation to Durrell Library' as the subject.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: slighcl 
  To: marcpiel at interdesign.fr ; ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 11:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- "This Magnetic Island" & "Cyprus After Durrell"


  On 7/6/2007 3:44 PM, Marc Piel wrote: 
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=travel&res=9E03E5D71F3DF936A25757C0A96E958260Thanks, Marc.  I had read that NYTIMES piece some time ago, but you have helped to bring it out.

  We are creating something of a dossier with our documents.  All of these are notes towards a Durrellian Archive.  What do they tell us?

  Whereas Durrell has slipped badly in academic accounts of twentieth-century literary history, I find that in treatments of place and travel--especially journalistic accounts of place and travel--Durrell is still a strong reference point.  If a newspaper article in the Guardian or the New York Times treats Corfu or Cyprus or Alexandria, then Durrell is still invoked as having something to say.  That heartens me.

  I encourage anyone with Durrellian news or articles to submit here on the ILDS listserv and to submit often.  This ILDS listserv, sponsored and facilitated by people in the academy and read and built by a larger general audience, can do its part to undo the past neglect.

  Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  ILDS mailing list
  ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
  https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From richardpin at eircom.net  Sat Jul  7 02:10:31 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 10:10:31 +0100
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
References: <BAY108-F3084C41CBA3CCA0A7571F9B0000@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <011b01c7c076$afca8eb0$f5461359@rpinelaptop>

The labels serve the purpose of allowing the critics and their gullible 
students to talk about the -isms. Otherwise they would have to talk about 
the literature. RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pamela Francis" <albigensian at hotmail.com>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism


> The wikipedia list of postmodern authors demonstrates that the border
> between modernism and postmodernism is leaky at best and sometimes
> completely disolved; William Faulkner, Saul Bellow, Flannery 
> o'Connor--John
> Updike?  as postmodernists?  i can see the case for each (if I look
> hard)--and I certainly read the Quintet as postmodern.  So what does 
> really
> distinguish the mod from the postmod?  And do we really have to have the
> distinction? What purpose can such labels--esp.since they are only
> nominal---serve?
> Just wondering--Pamela
>
>
>>From: "Vittorio Celentano" <vcel at ix.netcom.com>
>>Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>>Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 00:32:19 -0400
>>
>>Pamela and others:
>>
>>Lawrence Durrell is listed as a postmodern author in
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_literature
>>
>>Vittorio
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Pamela Francis" <albigensian at hotmail.com>
>>To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>>Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:46 PM
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>>
>>
>> > Though I can't completely disagree with Lincolnshire's equating of Xnty
>>with
>> > those who believe in the man in the moon, he and Surrey have 
>> > illustrated
>>the
>> > common misconception of postmodern thought--and not without some 
>> > reason,
>>as
>> > that is how it is quite often presented to the Great Unread Public. 
>> > But
>>the
>> > case of David Irving (Holocaust Denier par excellence) demonstrated--to
>> > those that were paying attention--that postmodernist thought must be
>>based
>> > on REASONABLE debate.  Even though, as postmodernists, we may question
>>who
>> > has written history and from what location--in other words, we must
>>question
>> > metanarratives--we also must question the questioning.  In this case, 
>> > it
>>is
>> > clear that questioning the metanarrative--with all its repercussions 
>> > for
>> > current prejudices and acts of ethnic cleansing--cannot be questioned
>>for
>> > any other reason than hatred, that is, the continued perpetuation of
>> > violence against certain ethnic and/or cultural identities.  If the
>> > questioning of Holocaust metanarratives cannot bring about anything
>>other
>> > than more hatred, it is an unreasonable debate, one which brings 
>> > justice
>>to
>> > absolutely NO ONE.
>> >
>> > On the surface, this tends to support the politically liberal point of
>>view,
>> > which many of the Great Unread Public equate with
>> > nambypambyloveandpeaceforeveryoneness.  But I find considerable logic 
>> > in
>>the
>> > argument that the "questioning", i.e., the denial of the Holocaust
>>cannot
>> > bring about any hidden injustices to those who (I, and I think most of
>>you
>> > as well) believe perpetuated the mass murder of Jews, Poles,
>>homosexuals,
>> > and gypsies (to name only a few of Hitler's victims).  In other words,
>>thi
>>s
>> > denial redeems no one.  In that sense, then, it is not reasonable, and
>> > therefore is not an example of postmodern theory in praxis.
>> >
>> > Having said all that, it is sometimes very tempting to tell confused
>> > undergraduates that postmodernism is the idea that all ideas are valid.
>> > It's just so much easier than being, well, reasonable...
>> >
>> >
>> > >From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>> > >Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> > >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> > >Subject: [ilds] baboonism
>> > >Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 03:05:53 +0100
>> > >
>> > >From the Questions Answered column in The Times, 6 July 2007:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Can anyone define what postmodern thought is?
>> > >
>> > >Postmodernists believe there is no knowledge or truth, only
>>"discourse".
>> > >However, they also tend to hold that modish left-wing views are
>>absolutely
>> > >true and that anyone who opposes these should be persecuted.
>> > >
>> > >Andrew M. Chisholm, Thames Ditton, Surrey
>> > >
>> > >I was recently told that Modernism was the age of reason, in which any
>> > >religious beliefs were decried as being irrational. Postmodern 
>> > >thought,
>> > >however, takes things to the opposite extreme, in that it regards all
>> > >values as being equally valid. In other words Christianity is placed 
>> > >on
>>a
>> > >par with those who think there is a man in the moon, which is made of
>>green
>> > >cheese.
>> > >
>> > >Tim Mickleburgh, Grimsby, Lincolnshire
>> >
>> >
>> > >_______________________________________________
>> > >ILDS mailing list
>> > >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> > >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>----
>>
>>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > ILDS mailing list
>> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>> >
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ILDS mailing list
>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Jul  7 08:21:08 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 08:21:08 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] archaeology
Message-ID: <20191878.1183821668486.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I wanted to be an archaeologist too.  It's hard work.  You get up early and get dirty.  Long hours in the field in remote places.  It easier to be an academic.  By the way, what's the source of Paghlia's comments?  Sounds like an interview.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 6, 2007 7:48 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] archaeology
>
>  I wanted to be an archaeologist early on. I think that is one of the 
>things that separates me from others in literary studies today. My 
>sense of time-frame is so vast compared to that of people in English 
>departments. When I think about sex, when I think about anything in 
>culture, I'm thinking about a 10,000-year time span, you see, and this 
>is what causes a communication problem with feminists, because most of 
>them, as far as I can see, tend to have their specialties in the late 
>eighteenth century or following. There are a few who have training 
>earlier, but they tend to be very narrowly focused even in that one 
>area. I think my broad expanse of learning and my already 
>world-consciousness--coming from my early passion, when I was, like, 
>four practically, to be an Egyptologist--I was just fascinated with 
>Egypt and began studying it very early on--I think that huge time-frame 
>that I have has been enormously advantageous. And it's one of the 
>reasons, again, why I'm not understood by feminists, though I am 
>understood by historians. The fan letters--I mean, it's absurd--the fan 
>letters that I get from historians, from political scientists, from 
>philosophers, from art historians, and so on and so forth. The bunkers 
>are just the literature departments and the feminists--they're all in 
>league with each other: "Oh, no, she's horrible! She's horrible!" Why? 
>Because I'm challenging the scholarship of everything. I'm challenging 
>their scholarship, which I think is absolutely amateurish. It will not 
>serve women to base a sex theory on shoddy scholarship. We cannot have 
>this. We cannot have this second-rateness. It's epidemic everywhere.
>-- Camille Paglia


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 08:27:32 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 11:27:32 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <5FE9D01A-2C7F-11DC-AC5A-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <BAY108-F3084C41CBA3CCA0A7571F9B0000@phx.gbl>
	<5FE9D01A-2C7F-11DC-AC5A-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070707152733.MPQK15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Jul  7 08:35:50 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 08:35:50 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
Message-ID: <5862586.1183822550425.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I'm curious -- are primary texts still taught in the universities these days?  Or are they on the supplemental, not-required reading list?  Not a silly question.  Read the big academic journals these days and you note that primary texts are simply used to support whims and theories.  Presumably, writing those kinds of articles will advance your academic career.  You never have to touch ground.  Didn't Swift write about such airheads living in the sky?

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Pine <richardpin at eircom.net>
>Sent: Jul 7, 2007 2:10 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>
>The labels serve the purpose of allowing the critics and their gullible 
>students to talk about the -isms. Otherwise they would have to talk about 
>the literature. RP


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 08:36:59 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 11:36:59 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <468F88F2.6080002@wfu.edu>
References: <BAY108-F407D818E33AD3AEF9D1D1BB0000@phx.gbl>
	<001201c7c04f$cf375d90$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>
	<468F88F2.6080002@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <20070707153700.FZOD3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Jul  7 08:54:05 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 08:54:05 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
Message-ID: <19138341.1183823645977.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 09:00:01 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 17:00:01 +0100
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <20070707152733.MPQK15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <1E46402C-2CA3-11DC-8376-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Bitter Lemons is informed by a considerable depth and breadth of 
history, also by Durrell's personal experience of the Levant.  His 
treatment of the situation is comprehensive.  Which is not to say that 
it is 'multiple', 'shifting', 'relative', or a matter of idiotic 
'discourse'.  Durrell makes his views on extremism and terrorism and 
lunacy and folly very clear, and is standards and moral values are 
evident from these views.

:Michael


On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 04:27  pm, william godshalk wrote:

> Michael writes:
>
> Durrell strikes me as? having had standards, a definite point of view.
>
>
>
> Which standards? What point of view? Some readers feel that Durrell 
> had too many points of view.
>
> Bill_______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 09:02:47 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:02:47 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <5862586.1183822550425.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.
	earthlink.net>
References: <5862586.1183822550425.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070707160258.GBWP3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From richardpin at eircom.net  Sat Jul  7 08:39:25 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 16:39:25 +0100
Subject: [ilds] Writing
Message-ID: <01eb01c7c0ad$01f272d0$f5461359@rpinelaptop>

-ISMS, THEORY and LANGUAGE: Paper 1. Time allowed, 2 hours.
Question 1:
Don DeLillo to David Foster Wallace (1997) 'At some point in my writing life I realized that precision can be a kind of poetry, and the more precise you try to be, or I try to be, the more simply and correctly responsive to what the world looks like - then the better my chances of creating a deeper and more beautiful language'. Wallace to DeLillo: 'I found your comments on the physical architecture of clauses and words and letters real interesting and yet identified with them not one whit. I think I'm maybe 100% aural. My eyesight's really bad anyway'.
Comment on this exchange in not more than 500 words, mentioning Lawrence Durrell not more than once.
50 % of the marks for this paper will depend on your answer to this question.
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From vcel at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jul  7 08:48:21 2007
From: vcel at ix.netcom.com (Vittorio Celentano)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 11:48:21 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
References: <BAY108-F3084C41CBA3CCA0A7571F9B0000@phx.gbl><5FE9D01A-2C7F-11DC-AC5A-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<20070707152733.MPQK15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <002301c7c0ae$402fb7a0$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>

Perhaps a few Lawrence Durrell quotations might help as listed in: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/l/lawrence_durrell.html

Vittorio
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: william godshalk 
  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 11:27 AM
  Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism


  Michael writes:


    Durrell strikes me as  having had standards, a definite point of view.



  Which standards? What point of view? Some readers feel that Durrell had too many points of view.

  Bill 

  ***************************************
  W. L. Godshalk           *
  Department of English         *
  University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
  Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
  513-281-5927
  *************************************** 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  ILDS mailing list
  ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
  https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sat Jul  7 09:07:32 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 10:07:32 -0600
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <20070707152733.MPQK15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <BAY108-F3084C41CBA3CCA0A7571F9B0000@phx.gbl>	<5FE9D01A-2C7F-11DC-AC5A-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<20070707152733.MPQK15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <468FBA44.3070709@gmail.com>

Which point of view is Durrell?  Or is he the one using the point of 
view...  I'm not sure where to spot his fixed and unchanging identity.

william godshalk wrote:
> Michael writes:
>
>> *Durrell strikes me as  having had standards, a definite point of view.
>> *
>
>
> Which standards? What point of view? Some readers feel that Durrell 
> had too many points of view.
>
> Bill
> ***************************************
> W. L. Godshalk           *
> Department of English         *
> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> 513-281-5927
> ***************************************
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>   

From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 09:18:26 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:18:26 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <19138341.1183823645977.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.
	earthlink.net>
References: <19138341.1183823645977.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070707161836.MUMC15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 09:29:28 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:29:28 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <002301c7c0ae$402fb7a0$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>
References: <BAY108-F3084C41CBA3CCA0A7571F9B0000@phx.gbl>
	<5FE9D01A-2C7F-11DC-AC5A-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<20070707152733.MPQK15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<002301c7c0ae$402fb7a0$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 09:38:35 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 17:38:35 +0100
Subject: [ilds] reality
Message-ID: <8172E86C-2CA8-11DC-8376-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>


Once upon a time, a visiting scholar presented a lecture on the topic: 
?How many philosophical positions are there in principle?? ?In 
principle,? he began, ?there are exactly 12 philosophical positions.? A 
voice called from the audience: ?Thirteen.? ?There are,? the lecturer 
repeated, ?exactly 12 possible philosophical positions; not one less 
and not one more.? ?Thirteen,? the voice from the audience called 
again. ?Very well, then,? said the lecturer, now perceptibly irked, ?I 
shall proceed to enumerate the 12 possible philosophical positions. The 
first is sometimes called ?naive realism?. It is the view according to 
which things are, by and large, very much the way that they seem to 
be.? ?Oh,? said the voice from the audience. ?Fourteen!?

For source, see (and scroll to bottom):
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n18/fodo01_.html

:Michael
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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sat Jul  7 09:35:57 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 10:35:57 -0600
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F407D818E33AD3AEF9D1D1BB0000@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-F407D818E33AD3AEF9D1D1BB0000@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <468FC0ED.4060502@gmail.com>

I once heard a creationist say that dinosaur bones were planted by the 
Devil -- that makes me think that palaeontologists must be a crazy 
bunch. It's best to disregard what they say... (tongue in my cheek). 
Isn't that form of reasoning precisely what Bruce and Michael are 
offering us right now though? They find one thing problematic, so it's 
therefore best to disregard everything that doesn't fit their view -- I 
know both of them have minds with more queries than that, so let's avoid 
those grand dismissive gestures. They credit neither the discussion nor 
the author who pens them.

-- case in point; when we take the responses to the Times to define our 
notions of postmodernism, we may be confusing apples and oranges.

Andrew M. Chisholm (his last name nicely coincides with a theorist in 
the department I completed my PhD through...) defines postmodernism 
using a similar slippage (a messy word if I ever heard one). For 
instance, by using the quotation posted by Michael (provocatively 
without his censure or tacit acceptance -- did you mean to erase the 
author there Michael, which is still you through the traditionally 
author-killing technique of pastiche and/or Burroughs-ish cutting?), we 
find it "folds in on itself" (that's an allusion to some postmodern 
stuff I don't buy into). Is my last sentence postmodern enough in it 
syntactic convolutions?

Mr Chisholm makes the seemingly reasonable comment:

Postmodernists believe there is no knowledge or truth, only ?discourse?. 
However, they also tend to hold that modish left-wing views are 
absolutely true and that anyone who opposes these should be persecuted.

We've moved from the universal to a tendency here: implicitly (all) 
postmodernists believe X yet they *tend* to believe Y, which is 
contradictory, so we should disregard X. In other words, I make a 
universal claim and then reject it as utterly wrong because of a 
tendency -- I'm not even saying his universal claim is right, but his 
reasons seem awkward.

Pamela then rebuts this in a classically pragmatist manner (a modernist 
philosophical move, I might add...), which I'll admit I'm drawn to. I 
like pragmatism in many respects. In other words, we should focus on 
useful discussions as well as our uses for a text or a particular 
reading. Just what postmodernism *is* matters little in comparison to 
how it functions and is used by many critics.

And besides, academic skepticism (the skeptical view that there is no 
knowledge, which is itself a statement from a position of knowing) is 
not a postmodern idea, so the "no knowledge" claim is off. The focus on 
"discourse," however, is spot on for historicism. By moving away from 
TRUTH to competing narratives or discourses, we open up many ways of 
approaching historical documents, even those for which there are no 
competing narratives (hence, they *must* be true, right? Irony again). 
To leap from that to leftism (and which leftism, pray tell), is a jump 
indeed. My hunch is that Mr. Chisholm isn't particularly fond of notions 
of discourse but he's dead set against leftism (I wonder, would that 
include libertarian anarchists, who I should think actually have a 
tremendous amount in common with die hard capitalists, who would 
typically be called modish right-wing values).

That said, many "postmodern" authors are notoriously difficult to read 
or to pin down to a single meaning. That's partly the point, partly the 
problem of translations, and partly just plain poor writing. I typically 
focus on the ideas and try to steer my classroom discussions away from 
'definitional excursions' into the meaning of words like "modernism" or 
"postmodernism," for which there are so many variant meanings and 
interpretations for them to be almost useless apart from popular slang 
to identify that thing we all know about but just can't describe... I'd 
rather focus on the traits of the specific thing being discussed or the 
specific meaning in a specific context rather than how I define it 
within a poorly defined movement.

But, what does this have to do with Durrell?

Perhaps more than we think. In the opening of _Bitter Lemons_, he openly 
directs our attention to his "characters" (do you call real people 
that?) and his desire to write a book that doesn't focus on historical 
TRUTHS but rather an "impressionistic" approach to multiple 
perspectives. Does that mean he wants a blurry landscape or one that 
only becomes intelligible as we allow ourselves to lose track of the 
particulars. Doesn't this also remind us of the _Quartet_ in unexpected 
ways? First the hermaphrodites, then multiple perspectives and a world 
peopled only by characters...

Well, that's sounds pretty close to postmodernism to me, at least in a 
slang sense. It could also be described within some notions of 
modernism, but perhaps it's best to split the difference and just say 
some funny ideas were circulating by that point in the century, and 
Durrell seemed to dig the flow on some level. After all, would you want 
to call _Bitter Lemons_ "history" or "discourse"? I'd prefer the 
tentativeness of the latter, 'cause I don't think I'd want to rely on an 
impressionist painting and characters for a grand historical TRUTH.

As for the "Underwear theory of History," isn't this precisely what 
postmodernism typically attacks? By creating associations between 
disparate things, we often reveal our own motivations more than any 
underlying TRUTH. If we stop talking about truth so much as those other 
factors, we might just get somewhere. After all, before we can even 
consider the pragmatic value of a discussion of wishy-washy words like 
"TRUE," I'd like to know better how we use them and talk about them. 
What purposes, and whose, do those words (let alone the ideas) serve? 
Think of the endings of _The Name of the Rose_ and _Foucault's Pendulum_ 
by Eco with regard to false patterns. I've often wondered how much 
Durrell's false pattern in his Quintet (overtly so, I think) influenced 
Eco in the latter book.

And then, Michael gives us Camille Paglia's comments (a female voice, 
Michael, or are you ventriloquising? -- another postmodern thing to 
discuss):

"What happened was that the old bibliographical style of literary 
scholarship had become totally enervated and dead, and then New 
Criticism rose up in the Twenties, Thirties, Forties--and then it really 
started dying in the Fifties--as a way to talk about the literary and 
artistic qualities of a text. And then unfortunately that detached 
itself entirely from any historical context, and you got a whole 
generation of critics who came through who have absolutely no historical 
sense whatever--they haven't been trained to think in historical terms."

This is again slippery. Bibliography is loosing ground, and I lament 
that. I feel the paucity of my own bibliographical training on many 
occasions, despite my ongoing work in it. Yet, do we blame that on New 
Criticism (which is also out of fashion just now)? The notion of close 
reading does not lead to the death of the author, but rather it creates 
elbow room for the reader. Also, I don't know why New Criticism without 
History is the problem here -- it isn't a theory about anything, let 
alone a theory of history or truth. It's a reading practice, and it 
works wonders with poetry. It makes for a wonderfully enjoyable reading 
experience for the reader and an enriched text as well. Think about how 
many ways you could read the last 2 lines of Keats' "When I have fears" 
or how long it takes him to reach that "then." Those are the practices 
of New Criticism, and I think they enrich the text.

That said, even New Criticism is not cohesive, with many saying it 
anticipates the Death of the Author phenomenon (in line with T.S. 
Eliot's "Tradition and the Individual Talent"), yet this is contradicted 
overtly by William Empson, a founding father of New Criticism. His 
*style* in _Seven Types of Ambiguity_ is meant to augment 
author-oriented and bibliographic scholarship, not replace it.

Perhaps we had best admit that our terminology for these movements is 
generalized at best, so staying close to what is at hand may be more 
productive. The pragmatist in me suggests it may be more useful. As per 
Bill's comments, wouldn't it be interesting if we could explain what we 
mean, how we mean it, and why we mean it for words like "truth," 
"postmodern," "real," or "good."

Best,
Jamie

Pamela Francis wrote:
> Though I can't completely disagree with Lincolnshire's equating of 
> Xnty with those who believe in the man in the moon, he and Surrey have 
> illustrated the common misconception of postmodern thought--and not 
> without some reason, as that is how it is quite often presented to the 
> Great Unread Public. But the case of David Irving (Holocaust Denier 
> par excellence) demonstrated--to those that were paying 
> attention--that postmodernist thought must be based on REASONABLE 
> debate. Even though, as postmodernists, we may question who has 
> written history and from what location--in other words, we must 
> question metanarratives--we also must question the questioning. In 
> this case, it is clear that questioning the metanarrative--with all 
> its repercussions for current prejudices and acts of ethnic 
> cleansing--cannot be questioned for any other reason than hatred, that 
> is, the continued perpetuation of violence against certain ethnic 
> and/or cultural identities. If the questioning of Holocaust 
> metanarratives cannot bring about anything other than more hatred, it 
> is an unreasonable debate, one which brings justice to absolutely NO ONE.
>
> On the surface, this tends to support the politically liberal point of 
> view, which many of the Great Unread Public equate with 
> nambypambyloveandpeaceforeveryoneness. But I find considerable logic 
> in the argument that the "questioning", i.e., the denial of the 
> Holocaust cannot bring about any hidden injustices to those who (I, 
> and I think most of you as well) believe perpetuated the mass murder 
> of Jews, Poles, homosexuals, and gypsies (to name only a few of 
> Hitler's victims). In other words, this denial redeems no one. In that 
> sense, then, it is not reasonable, and therefore is not an example of 
> postmodern theory in praxis.
>
> Having said all that, it is sometimes very tempting to tell confused 
> undergraduates that postmodernism is the idea that all ideas are 
> valid. It's just so much easier than being, well, reasonable...

From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 09:36:53 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:36:53 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <1E46402C-2CA3-11DC-8376-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <20070707152733.MPQK15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<1E46402C-2CA3-11DC-8376-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 09:41:04 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:41:04 -0400
Subject: [ilds] reality and sexual positions
In-Reply-To: <8172E86C-2CA8-11DC-8376-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <8172E86C-2CA8-11DC-8376-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 09:53:53 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 17:53:53 +0100
Subject: [ilds] reality and sexual positions
In-Reply-To: <20070707164124.MWLS15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <A49F4082-2CAA-11DC-8376-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

I wonder if the joke travelled down the spinal cord or up.

:Michael


On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 05:41  pm, william godshalk wrote:

> I heard this joke many years ago from Bill Hussey -- when the topic 
> was sexual positions. Position fourteen was the missionary position.
>
> At 12:38 PM 7/7/2007, you wrote:
>
> Once upon a time, a visiting scholar presented a lecture on the topic: 
> ?How many philosophical positions are there in principle?? ?In 
> principle,? he began, ?there are exactly 12 philosophical positions.? 
> A voice called from the audience: ?Thirteen.? ?There are,? the 
> lecturer repeated, ?exactly 12 possible philosophical positions; not 
> one less and not one more.? ?Thirteen,? the voice from the audience 
> called again. ?Very well, then,? said the lecturer, now perceptibly 
> irked, ?I shall proceed to enumerate the 12 possible philosophical 
> positions. The first is sometimes called ?naive realism?. It is the 
> view according to which things are, by and large, very much the way 
> that they seem to be.? ?Oh,? said the voice from the audience. 
> ?Fourteen!?
>
> For source, see (and scroll to bottom):
> http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n18/fodo01_.html
>
> :Michael
> <br>
> <div>_______________________________________________</div>
> <div>ILDS mailing list</div>
> <div>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca</div>
> <div><a href="https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds" 
> EUDORA=AUTOURL> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds</a></div>
> </blockquote></x-html>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 10:00:48 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 13:00:48 -0400
Subject: [ilds] reality and sexual positions
In-Reply-To: <A49F4082-2CAA-11DC-8376-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <20070707164124.MWLS15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<A49F4082-2CAA-11DC-8376-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 10:15:00 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 18:15:00 +0100
Subject: [ilds] reality and sexual positions
In-Reply-To: <20070707170118.GGXW3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <97E41738-2CAD-11DC-8376-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

So what is the postmodernist take on sexual intercourse?  Uncertain, 
never happened, open to discourse, or what?

:Michael


On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 06:00  pm, william godshalk wrote:

> I wonder if the joke travelled down the spinal cord or up.
>
> :Michael
>
>
> Traditionally in Indian thought, the energy moves up.
>
> Bill_______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 13:56:54 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 16:56:54 -0400
Subject: [ilds] postmodern positions
In-Reply-To: <97E41738-2CAD-11DC-8376-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <20070707170118.GGXW3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<97E41738-2CAD-11DC-8376-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
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From albigensian at hotmail.com  Sat Jul  7 10:43:55 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:43:55 -0500
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <20070707160258.GBWP3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY108-F12666A3DAF5B0014A3ACB3B0000@phx.gbl>

Yes, Virginia, literary texts ARE still read in universities...and I feel a 
real return of the close reading, at least in some areas.  And one still has 
to have an "area" or "period" in which the academic is well-read; I, for 
instance, am a "modernist"--however, I read modernist texts using what Bill 
has called the "necessary category" of postcolonial theory.  This means i 
use that category to help get at the text, but it still requires careful 
close reading of the primary text.  Some academics, however, make "theory" 
their "area" and their "period".  I don't know about other universities, but 
the English dept (graduate level) at Rice is very primary-text oriented, but 
even undergraduates are expected to be familiar with the variety of 
theoretical categories--or lenses--to aid their reading of the text.  I find 
it very constructive--close reading alone, without any sort of structure, 
too often winds up being "what this novel means to me"--in short, it does 
nothing.  Some people, of course, don't want their reading to "do anything" 
and that's fine.  But in order to compete with other departments, such as 
the sciences or business, which produce a "product", we have to be able to 
say we're doing something.  This is a big bone of contention in English 
departments everywhere--Stanley Fish, for instance, thinks we're just 
kidding ourselves and should just admit that the study of literature has no 
use-value, and sit around on our elitist butts and read books just for the 
fun of it.  Which, of course, he is doing, at a six-figure salary that could 
pay for two or three positions for instructors who actually teach classes.  
Others of us want students to know that literature does mean something--that 
it came out of a particular context and makes certain points, undermines 
certain metanarratives, subverts this cultural assumption, bolsters that 
ideology.  But that New Criticism slouching toward the MLA never really went 
away; it's just been exploited by categories with sexier names.


>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:02:47 -0400
>
>
>
>Bruce asks some questions:
>
>
>I'm curious -- are primary
>texts still taught in the universities these days?? Or are they on
>the supplemental, not-required reading list?? Not a silly
>question.? Read the big academic journals these days and you note
>that primary texts are simply used to support whims and theories.?
>Presumably, writing those kinds of articles will advance your academic
>career.? You never have to touch ground.? Didn't Swift write
>about such airheads living in the sky?
>
>Yes, some of us teach literary texts, e.g. Shakespeare, Milton,
>Woolf. I leave philosophy (i.e. theory) to the philosophers who have
>their bastion down the hall from English.
>
>
>Yes, in your description of the pretentious world of the MLA, I think you
>may be correct -- for the moment. Theory seems to be more prominent than
>literature, postcolonial theory more prominent than, say, Haggard's
>She or John Masters's wonderful Indian novels.
>
>
>But the text will return -- the return of the repressed! The New Critics
>took us back to the text. Some where a New New Criticism is slouching
>toward MLA Headquarters.
>
>
>Gulliver's Travels, Part 3.
>
>
>Bill
>
>
>***************************************
>W. L.
>Godshalk??
>????????*
>Department of
>English???????? *
>University of
>Cincinnati???????????
>Stellar disorder? *
>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069????? *
>513-281-5927
>***************************************
>
>


>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From vcel at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jul  7 11:10:22 2007
From: vcel at ix.netcom.com (Vittorio Celentano)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 14:10:22 -0400
Subject: [ilds] reality and sexual positions
References: <A49F4082-2CAA-11DC-8376-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c7c0c2$17369530$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>

Michael:

>From "Recollections of a Durrell collector" by Alan G. Thomas:  

"The recent emancipation of Anglo-Saxon publishing has resulted in numerous reprints of erotic classics. One American asked Durrell (as the greatest authority on love) to write a preface to the Kamasutra. In refusing, Durrell replied : ."the Kama Sutra is primarily a religious book, and I cannot help suspecting that you are reprinting it for pornographic reasons. And anyway, of the hundred-and-eighty positions I've only tried about twelve - and some of those didn't work."



Vittorio

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael Haag 
  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 12:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [ilds] reality and sexual positions


  I wonder if the joke travelled down the spinal cord or up.

  :Michael


  On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 05:41 pm, william godshalk wrote:


    I heard this joke many years ago from Bill Hussey -- when the topic was sexual positions. Position fourteen was the missionary position.

    At 12:38 PM 7/7/2007, you wrote:

    Once upon a time, a visiting scholar presented a lecture on the topic: ?How many philosophical positions are there in principle?? ?In principle,? he began, ?there are exactly 12 philosophical positions.? A voice called from the audience: ?Thirteen.? ?There are,? the lecturer repeated, ?exactly 12 possible philosophical positions; not one less and not one more.? ?Thirteen,? the voice from the audience called again. ?Very well, then,? said the lecturer, now perceptibly irked, ?I shall proceed to enumerate the 12 possible philosophical positions. The first is sometimes called ?naive realism?. It is the view according to which things are, by and large, very much the way that they seem to be.? ?Oh,? said the voice from the audience. ?Fourteen!?

    For source, see (and scroll to bottom):
    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n18/fodo01_.html

    :Michael
    <br>
    <div>_______________________________________________</div>
    <div>ILDS mailing list</div>
    <div>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca</div>
    <div><a href="https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds" EUDORA=AUTOURL> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds</a></div>
    </blockquote></x-html>

    _______________________________________________
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    ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
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From vcel at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jul  7 11:55:43 2007
From: vcel at ix.netcom.com (Vittorio Celentano)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 14:55:43 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Camille and history
References: <5EE5EB62-2C37-11DC-930B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<20070707032603.LGGE15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <001301c7c0c8$6d57eee0$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>

Bill:

Perhaps the Camille Paglia quotes might help as listed in: http://womenshistory.about.com/od/quotes/a/camille_paglia.htm

Vittorio
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: william godshalk 
  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 11:25 PM
  Subject: [ilds] Camille and history


  In what century did Camille (I assume it is she) write this? The Old Historicism is making a comeback. 


    I feel that learning has to be brought back to the center of the humanities curriculum. I can see what happened. What happened was that the old bibliographical style of literary scholarship had become totally enervated and dead, and then New Criticism rose up in the Twenties, Thirties, Forties--and then it really started dying in the Fifties--as a way to talk about the literary and artistic qualities of a text. And then unfortunately that detached itself entirely from any historical context, and you got a whole generation of critics who came through who have absolutely no historical sense whatever--they haven't been trained to think in historical terms.  -- Camille Paglia 


  Bill 

  ***************************************
  W. L. Godshalk           *
  Department of English         *
  University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
  Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
  513-281-5927
  *************************************** 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  ILDS mailing list
  ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
  https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 14:31:54 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:31:54 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F12666A3DAF5B0014A3ACB3B0000@phx.gbl>
References: <20070707160258.GBWP3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<BAY108-F12666A3DAF5B0014A3ACB3B0000@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070707213154.LKKG7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 14:37:25 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 22:37:25 +0100
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F12666A3DAF5B0014A3ACB3B0000@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <408BC377-2CD2-11DC-97A4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Which particular colonialism are you post?  Ottoman?  Arab?  or 
something else?

:Michael




On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 06:43  pm, Pamela Francis wrote:

> Yes, Virginia, literary texts ARE still read in universities...and I 
> feel a real return of the close reading, at least in some areas.  And 
> one still has to have an "area" or "period" in which the academic is 
> well-read; I, for instance, am a "modernist"--however, I read 
> modernist texts using what Bill has called the "necessary category" of 
> postcolonial theory.  This means i use that category to help get at 
> the text, but it still requires careful close reading of the primary 
> text.  Some academics, however, make "theory" their "area" and their 
> "period".  I don't know about other universities, but the English dept 
> (graduate level) at Rice is very primary-text oriented, but even 
> undergraduates are expected to be familiar with the variety of 
> theoretical categories--or lenses--to aid their reading of the text.  
> I find it very constructive--close reading alone, without any sort of 
> structure, too often winds up being "what this novel means to me"--in 
> short, it does nothing.  Some people, of course, don't want their 
> reading to "do anything" and that's fine.  But in order to compete 
> with other departments, such as the sciences or business, which 
> produce a "product", we have to be able to say we're doing something.  
> This is a big bone of contention in English departments 
> everywhere--Stanley Fish, for instance, thinks we're just kidding 
> ourselves and should just admit that the study of literature has no 
> use-value, and sit around on our elitist butts and read books just for 
> the fun of it.  Which, of course, he is doing, at a six-figure salary 
> that could pay for two or three positions for instructors who actually 
> teach classes.  Others of us want students to know that literature 
> does mean something--that it came out of a particular context and 
> makes certain points, undermines certain metanarratives, subverts this 
> cultural assumption, bolsters that ideology.  But that New Criticism 
> slouching toward the MLA never really went away; it's just been 
> exploited by categories with sexier names.
>
>
>> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>> Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:02:47 -0400
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce asks some questions:
>>
>>
>> I'm curious -- are primary
>> texts still taught in the universities these days?? Or are they on
>> the supplemental, not-required reading list?? Not a silly
>> question.? Read the big academic journals these days and you note
>> that primary texts are simply used to support whims and theories.?
>> Presumably, writing those kinds of articles will advance your academic
>> career.? You never have to touch ground.? Didn't Swift write
>> about such airheads living in the sky?
>>
>> Yes, some of us teach literary texts, e.g. Shakespeare, Milton,
>> Woolf. I leave philosophy (i.e. theory) to the philosophers who have
>> their bastion down the hall from English.
>>
>>
>> Yes, in your description of the pretentious world of the MLA, I think 
>> you
>> may be correct -- for the moment. Theory seems to be more prominent 
>> than
>> literature, postcolonial theory more prominent than, say, Haggard's
>> She or John Masters's wonderful Indian novels.
>>
>>
>> But the text will return -- the return of the repressed! The New 
>> Critics
>> took us back to the text. Some where a New New Criticism is slouching
>> toward MLA Headquarters.
>>
>>
>> Gulliver's Travels, Part 3.
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> ***************************************
>> W. L.
>> Godshalk??
>> ????????*
>> Department of
>> English???????? *
>> University of
>> Cincinnati???????????
>> Stellar disorder? *
>> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069????? *
>> 513-281-5927
>> ***************************************
>>
>>
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 14:41:37 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 22:41:37 +0100
Subject: [ilds] postmodern positions
In-Reply-To: <20070707205655.HCMF3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <D71E7BE1-2CD2-11DC-97A4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Spoken like a true philosopher!

:Michael



On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 09:56  pm, william godshalk wrote:

> So what is the postmodernist take on sexual intercourse?? Uncertain, 
> never happened, open to discourse, or what?
>
>
> Michael, 'I'm not a postmodernist. So anything I say about sexual 
> intercourse is colored by my eight marriages. You will point out that 
> just a few weeks ago, I said that I had been married only seven times. 
> But last weekend my third wife insisted that we had been married 
> twice. You can do the math.
>
>
> About the above, I think a postmodernist would begin his discourse 
> with "or what." That clearly puts the ball into the opponent's court. 
> Should the opponent respond in force, the postmodernist would open up 
> a larger discourse. If the discourse proved inadequate to the 
> response, the next fall back position would be uncertainty -- as 
> Heisenberg has shown us. And, finally, if all else fails, the 
> postmodernist can claim that it never happened. Should your female 
> lover give birth to your child, you may have to fall back from this 
> position.
>
> Bill
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 14:39:50 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:39:50 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Camille and history
In-Reply-To: <001301c7c0c8$6d57eee0$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>
References: <5EE5EB62-2C37-11DC-930B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<20070707032603.LGGE15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<001301c7c0c8$6d57eee0$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>
Message-ID: <20070707214000.LKVK7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 14:42:13 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:42:13 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <408BC377-2CD2-11DC-97A4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <BAY108-F12666A3DAF5B0014A3ACB3B0000@phx.gbl>
	<408BC377-2CD2-11DC-97A4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070707214213.NTVO15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

Michael,

A literary theory is about literature, not about Turks and Arabs.

Bill

At 05:37 PM 7/7/2007, you wrote:
>Which particular colonialism are you post?  Ottoman?  Arab?  or
>something else?
>
>:Michael
>
>
>
>
>On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 06:43  pm, Pamela Francis wrote:
>
> > Yes, Virginia, literary texts ARE still read in universities...and I
> > feel a real return of the close reading, at least in some areas.  And
> > one still has to have an "area" or "period" in which the academic is
> > well-read; I, for instance, am a "modernist"--however, I read
> > modernist texts using what Bill has called the "necessary category" of
> > postcolonial theory.  This means i use that category to help get at
> > the text, but it still requires careful close reading of the primary
> > text.  Some academics, however, make "theory" their "area" and their
> > "period".  I don't know about other universities, but the English dept
> > (graduate level) at Rice is very primary-text oriented, but even
> > undergraduates are expected to be familiar with the variety of
> > theoretical categories--or lenses--to aid their reading of the text.
> > I find it very constructive--close reading alone, without any sort of
> > structure, too often winds up being "what this novel means to me"--in
> > short, it does nothing.  Some people, of course, don't want their
> > reading to "do anything" and that's fine.  But in order to compete
> > with other departments, such as the sciences or business, which
> > produce a "product", we have to be able to say we're doing something.
> > This is a big bone of contention in English departments
> > everywhere--Stanley Fish, for instance, thinks we're just kidding
> > ourselves and should just admit that the study of literature has no
> > use-value, and sit around on our elitist butts and read books just for
> > the fun of it.  Which, of course, he is doing, at a six-figure salary
> > that could pay for two or three positions for instructors who actually
> > teach classes.  Others of us want students to know that literature
> > does mean something--that it came out of a particular context and
> > makes certain points, undermines certain metanarratives, subverts this
> > cultural assumption, bolsters that ideology.  But that New Criticism
> > slouching toward the MLA never really went away; it's just been
> > exploited by categories with sexier names.
> >
> >
> >> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> >> Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >> Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
> >> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:02:47 -0400
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Bruce asks some questions:
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm curious -- are primary
> >> texts still taught in the universities these days?  Or are they on
> >> the supplemental, not-required reading list?  Not a silly
> >> question.  Read the big academic journals these days and you note
> >> that primary texts are simply used to support whims and theories.
> >> Presumably, writing those kinds of articles will advance your academic
> >> career.  You never have to touch ground.  Didn't Swift write
> >> about such airheads living in the sky?
> >>
> >> Yes, some of us teach literary texts, e.g. Shakespeare, Milton,
> >> Woolf. I leave philosophy (i.e. theory) to the philosophers who have
> >> their bastion down the hall from English.
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, in your description of the pretentious world of the MLA, I think
> >> you
> >> may be correct -- for the moment. Theory seems to be more prominent
> >> than
> >> literature, postcolonial theory more prominent than, say, Haggard's
> >> She or John Masters's wonderful Indian novels.
> >>
> >>
> >> But the text will return -- the return of the repressed! The New
> >> Critics
> >> took us back to the text. Some where a New New Criticism is slouching
> >> toward MLA Headquarters.
> >>
> >>
> >> Gulliver's Travels, Part 3.
> >>
> >>
> >> Bill
> >>
> >>
> >> ***************************************
> >> W. L.
> >> Godshalk
> >>         *
> >> Department of
> >> English         *
> >> University of
> >> Cincinnati
> >> Stellar disorder  *
> >> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> >> 513-281-5927
> >> ***************************************
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> ILDS mailing list
> >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ILDS mailing list
> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 14:46:08 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:46:08 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Touchstone
In-Reply-To: <D71E7BE1-2CD2-11DC-97A4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <20070707205655.HCMF3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<D71E7BE1-2CD2-11DC-97A4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070707214628.LLFD7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Jul  7 14:52:01 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 14:52:01 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
Message-ID: <31658601.1183845121823.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Well, Bill, then let's read Bitter Lemons and infer what those standards are.   The first paragraph of BL tells me that the author likes words, he has a vision, an inquiring mind, an artistic temperament; he looks for ways to develop that outlook; possibly he even wants to reconcile his inward nature with the outside world.  This guy is a Humanist in the making.  Will he turn out to be a Montaigne?  Let's read on and see.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jul 7, 2007 9:18 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>
>Bruce wrote:
>
>Bill, that argument can beturned on Shakespeare, who is often said not to have any philosophy or,by extension, "point of view."  But who believesthat?  If Durrell didn't have standards and a point of view wewouldn't be reading him.
>In the USA Shakespeare is claimed by the political left asone of their own. In the UK he is more generally seen as a conservative.Which is correct -- if either? If S has a definite point of view -- aposition from which he interprets the world -- tell us what it is.Shakespeare scholars don't really have a clue. Or perhaps they have toomany clues. 
>
>Which standards? What point of view?
>
>This is what I asked. I did not claim that he had none. I justwonder what they are or were.
>
>Bill 


From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Sat Jul  7 14:46:28 2007
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (dtart at bigpond.net.au)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 7:46:28 +1000
Subject: [ilds] six O'Clock swill
Message-ID: <24806287.1183844788527.JavaMail.root@web04ps>


---- Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote: 
> A special dispensation will have to be granted the Greens, who are under 50.  Otherwise, they qualify.  I shall consult my medium in touch with LD's spirit -- but no problems, I'm sure.  By the way, is the "six o'clock swill" still a phenomenon in Australia.  An Australian once described it to me, and I think he was serious -- but you never know with Australians.
> 
> Bruce
> 

The Six O'Clock swill WAS a phenomenon in Australia. It was an attempt by the WOWSERs (we only want social evils remedied) to curb the drinking habits of Australian Males (we could not come at total prohibition as you Americans tried). it failed spectacularly. The working classes drank so much beer between knock off time at 3.30pm and closing time at 6.00pm - the swill- that they came home (if they could walk at all) to their families in such an appalling condition that they were fit for nothing but a night in the dog house or the outdoor dunny (toilet). There was also a huge illegal trade in out of hours drinking (sound familiiar). The policy was abandoned, i think during the 1940s, but hours were still restricted to 10am to 10pm monday to saturday with total closure on Sunday.

Now you can get pissed at all hours like in Europe and like in Europe there is now, interestingly, far less drunkeness. The desires of the WOWSERS were in fact achieved by extending drinking hours. If, like Durrell, you like 4 - 5 pints of wine a day, it is better to drink this over a whole day than in 2 or 3 hours.

In Vino Veritas

David (whitewine)
Currently in New Zealand enjoying some fine vintages from the land of the Long White Cloud.
> 

From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 14:58:51 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 22:58:51 +0100
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <20070707214213.NTVO15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <3F30C63A-2CD5-11DC-8121-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

No, Bill, you do not understand.  Postcolonial theory is about 
colonialism and what follows.  So they tell me.  How can you read a 
book without knowing whether the writer is oppressed?  But it is such a 
big field.  If reading Durrell, for example, one would want to know 
about post-Ottoman colonial theory, and also post-Byzantine colonial 
theory, and that is just for reading Bitter Lemons.  Post-Arab colonial 
theory would not go amiss for catching the wider frame of reference.  
These are after all the great imperiums that have shaped and continue 
to shape the Middle East and the Mediterranean to this day -- culture, 
language, thought, religion, even landscape.  So I would like to know 
from Pamela which of these relevant postcolonialisms she deals with 
when turning out her product.

:Michael



On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 10:42  pm, william godshalk wrote:

> Michael,
>
> A literary theory is about literature, not about Turks and Arabs.
>
> Bill
>
> At 05:37 PM 7/7/2007, you wrote:
>> Which particular colonialism are you post?  Ottoman?  Arab?  or
>> something else?
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 06:43  pm, Pamela Francis wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, Virginia, literary texts ARE still read in universities...and I
>>> feel a real return of the close reading, at least in some areas.  And
>>> one still has to have an "area" or "period" in which the academic is
>>> well-read; I, for instance, am a "modernist"--however, I read
>>> modernist texts using what Bill has called the "necessary category" 
>>> of
>>> postcolonial theory.  This means i use that category to help get at
>>> the text, but it still requires careful close reading of the primary
>>> text.  Some academics, however, make "theory" their "area" and their
>>> "period".  I don't know about other universities, but the English 
>>> dept
>>> (graduate level) at Rice is very primary-text oriented, but even
>>> undergraduates are expected to be familiar with the variety of
>>> theoretical categories--or lenses--to aid their reading of the text.
>>> I find it very constructive--close reading alone, without any sort of
>>> structure, too often winds up being "what this novel means to me"--in
>>> short, it does nothing.  Some people, of course, don't want their
>>> reading to "do anything" and that's fine.  But in order to compete
>>> with other departments, such as the sciences or business, which
>>> produce a "product", we have to be able to say we're doing something.
>>> This is a big bone of contention in English departments
>>> everywhere--Stanley Fish, for instance, thinks we're just kidding
>>> ourselves and should just admit that the study of literature has no
>>> use-value, and sit around on our elitist butts and read books just 
>>> for
>>> the fun of it.  Which, of course, he is doing, at a six-figure salary
>>> that could pay for two or three positions for instructors who 
>>> actually
>>> teach classes.  Others of us want students to know that literature
>>> does mean something--that it came out of a particular context and
>>> makes certain points, undermines certain metanarratives, subverts 
>>> this
>>> cultural assumption, bolsters that ideology.  But that New Criticism
>>> slouching toward the MLA never really went away; it's just been
>>> exploited by categories with sexier names.
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>>>> Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>>>> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:02:47 -0400
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bruce asks some questions:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm curious -- are primary
>>>> texts still taught in the universities these days?  Or are they on
>>>> the supplemental, not-required reading list?  Not a silly
>>>> question.  Read the big academic journals these days and you note
>>>> that primary texts are simply used to support whims and theories.
>>>> Presumably, writing those kinds of articles will advance your 
>>>> academic
>>>> career.  You never have to touch ground.  Didn't Swift write
>>>> about such airheads living in the sky?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, some of us teach literary texts, e.g. Shakespeare, Milton,
>>>> Woolf. I leave philosophy (i.e. theory) to the philosophers who have
>>>> their bastion down the hall from English.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, in your description of the pretentious world of the MLA, I 
>>>> think
>>>> you
>>>> may be correct -- for the moment. Theory seems to be more prominent
>>>> than
>>>> literature, postcolonial theory more prominent than, say, Haggard's
>>>> She or John Masters's wonderful Indian novels.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But the text will return -- the return of the repressed! The New
>>>> Critics
>>>> took us back to the text. Some where a New New Criticism is 
>>>> slouching
>>>> toward MLA Headquarters.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gulliver's Travels, Part 3.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ***************************************
>>>> W. L.
>>>> Godshalk
>>>>         *
>>>> Department of
>>>> English         *
>>>> University of
>>>> Cincinnati
>>>> Stellar disorder  *
>>>> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>>>> 513-281-5927
>>>> ***************************************
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ILDS mailing list
>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> ***************************************
> W. L. Godshalk		*
> Department of English         *
> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> 513-281-5927
> ***************************************
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Jul  7 15:44:57 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 15:44:57 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
Message-ID: <3112030.1183848297583.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Bill, I guess I'm just too naive and trusting.  I don't worry about ontology and finding the real LD.  I don't much worry about authorial masks and personae (the old New Criticism concern), particularly when dealing with non-fiction.  These kinds of intricate games I leave to the academy, which makes a profession out of such things.  I take the "me" of paragraph two pretty much at face value.  I hear and see Lawrence Durrell speaking.  He will, of course, occasionally invent, transpose, tell a fib, even plagiarize, but I like to think he's usually doing it in good faith, for whatever personal reason or just in the interest of telling a good story.  Don't we all do that?  Why not give the guy the same break?

As to Montaigne, I'm thinking of his skepticism and the agility of his mind.  Also his use of history and classical sources.  Although Montaigne doesn't travel, his mind and imagination ranges through time and history and view the present through that lens.  Which Durrell also does.  Do we ask what Montaigne's standards are, aside from such broad categories as skepticism?  I think not.  I put him in the same category as Shakespeare (in fact, that's how I got introduced to him -- in a Shakespeare course!).  I owe much to you academics.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jul 7, 2007 3:01 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>
>
>Well, Bill, then let's readBitter Lemons and infer what those standards are.   The firstparagraph of BL tells me that the author likes words, he has a vision, aninquiring mind, an artistic temperament; he looks for ways to developthat outlook; possibly he even wants to reconcile his inward nature withthe outside world.  This guy is a Humanist in the making.  Willhe turn out to be a Montaigne?  Let's read on and see.
>Bruce
>But, Bruce, what if this is a mask? Does D create a persona that hewishes to project, but which may not be strongly linked to theontological Durrell.
>
>Nice summation of paragraph one.
>
>Montaigne in what sense? In fact, Montaigne does write like Durrell!!!!He uses the cento form. He or his secretary copies from his notebooksinto his essays. Wow.
>
>Bill



From vcel at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jul  7 15:18:06 2007
From: vcel at ix.netcom.com (Vittorio Celentano)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 18:18:06 -0400
Subject: [ilds] sincerity
References: <E9C43E9C-2C33-11DC-930B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c7c0e4$b29f4f90$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>

Michael:

Allow me to post Camille Paglia's full text in: http://gos.sbc.edu/p/paglia.html

Vittorio
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael Haag 
  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:43 PM
  Subject: [ilds] sincerity


  '... these Marxists, like Terry Eagleton at Oxford. Do you know what he makes? Do you know the salary that man makes? Oh, it just disgusts me. This is why he has to wear blue jeans, to show, "Oh, no, I don't have the money." These people are hypocrites! They really are. It's all a literary game.' -- Camille Paglia


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
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From albigensian at hotmail.com  Sat Jul  7 15:38:14 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:38:14 -0500
Subject: [ilds] postmodern positions
In-Reply-To: <D71E7BE1-2CD2-11DC-97A4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <BAY108-F206A8FF9CEDEA542F92016B0000@phx.gbl>

Actually post-Ottoman, and post-British, god bless our queen...


>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] postmodern positions
>Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 22:41:37 +0100
>
>Spoken like a true philosopher!
>
>:Michael
>
>
>
>On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 09:56  pm, william godshalk wrote:
>
>>So what is the postmodernist take on sexual intercourse?? Uncertain, never 
>>happened, open to discourse, or what?
>>
>>
>>Michael, 'I'm not a postmodernist. So anything I say about sexual 
>>intercourse is colored by my eight marriages. You will point out that just 
>>a few weeks ago, I said that I had been married only seven times. But last 
>>weekend my third wife insisted that we had been married twice. You can do 
>>the math.
>>
>>
>>About the above, I think a postmodernist would begin his discourse with 
>>"or what." That clearly puts the ball into the opponent's court. Should 
>>the opponent respond in force, the postmodernist would open up a larger 
>>discourse. If the discourse proved inadequate to the response, the next 
>>fall back position would be uncertainty -- as Heisenberg has shown us. 
>>And, finally, if all else fails, the postmodernist can claim that it never 
>>happened. Should your female lover give birth to your child, you may have 
>>to fall back from this position.
>>
>>Bill
>>_______________________________________________
>>ILDS mailing list
>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From albigensian at hotmail.com  Sat Jul  7 15:47:01 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:47:01 -0500
Subject: [ilds] Camille and history
In-Reply-To: <20070707214000.LKVK7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY108-F241087E94E71D5BFD7354EB0000@phx.gbl>


? If civilization had been left in female hands, we would still be living
>in grass huts.


Perhaps...but my grass hut would have running water, a large and diverse 
library, and would feature the best-set table and vintages in the whole 
village.


>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Camille and history
>Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:39:50 -0400
>
>
>
>Vittorio,
>
>
>I wonder how serious Paglia is. But she's certainly funny. Here're two of
>her aphorisms taken from the site you point out.
>
>
>
>
>? The trauma of the Sixties persuaded me that my generation's
>egalitarianism was a sentimental error. I now see the hierarchical as
>both beautiful and necessary. Efficiency liberates; egalitarianism
>tangles, delays, blocks, deadens.
>
>
>? If civilization had been left in female hands, we would still be living
>in grass huts.
>
>
>Bill
>
>
>
>
>***************************************
>W. L.
>Godshalk??
>????????*
>Department of
>English???????? *
>University of
>Cincinnati???????????
>Stellar disorder? *
>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069????? *
>513-281-5927
>***************************************
>
>


>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sat Jul  7 16:13:17 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:13:17 -0600
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <3112030.1183848297583.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <3112030.1183848297583.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <46901E0D.7010903@gmail.com>

Bruce,

It may be a 'postmodern move' (whatever that means), but the Durrell of 
his autobiographical travel narratives is certainly a character, often 
with very little in common with what the biographical author actually 
got up to.  Case in point -- the journal of _Prospero's Cell_ is a 
created artifact.  The characters of _Bitter Lemons_ are explicitly 
called characters, which is a tip off for me...  The shorter works are 
largely invented as well.

I don't trust Durrell for 'truth' when I read him -- I enjoy the ride 
instead.  Fiction is, by its very nature, a lie.  It took me a while to 
get over my frustrations with Durrell for that, but I think it was 
struggle that was useful, at least for me and my development as a reader.

Best,
James

Bruce Redwine wrote:
> Bill, I guess I'm just too naive and trusting.  I don't worry about ontology and finding the real LD.  I don't much worry about authorial masks and personae (the old New Criticism concern), particularly when dealing with non-fiction.  These kinds of intricate games I leave to the academy, which makes a profession out of such things.  I take the "me" of paragraph two pretty much at face value.  I hear and see Lawrence Durrell speaking.  He will, of course, occasionally invent, transpose, tell a fib, even plagiarize, but I like to think he's usually doing it in good faith, for whatever personal reason or just in the interest of telling a good story.  Don't we all do that?  Why not give the guy the same break?
> 
> As to Montaigne, I'm thinking of his skepticism and the agility of his mind.  Also his use of history and classical sources.  Although Montaigne doesn't travel, his mind and imagination ranges through time and history and view the present through that lens.  Which Durrell also does.  Do we ask what Montaigne's standards are, aside from such broad categories as skepticism?  I think not.  I put him in the same category as Shakespeare (in fact, that's how I got introduced to him -- in a Shakespeare course!).  I owe much to you academics.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>> Sent: Jul 7, 2007 3:01 PM
>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>>
>>
>> Well, Bill, then let's readBitter Lemons and infer what those standards are.   The firstparagraph of BL tells me that the author likes words, he has a vision, aninquiring mind, an artistic temperament; he looks for ways to developthat outlook; possibly he even wants to reconcile his inward nature withthe outside world.  This guy is a Humanist in the making.  Willhe turn out to be a Montaigne?  Let's read on and see.
>> Bruce
>> But, Bruce, what if this is a mask? Does D create a persona that hewishes to project, but which may not be strongly linked to theontological Durrell.
>>
>> Nice summation of paragraph one.
>>
>> Montaigne in what sense? In fact, Montaigne does write like Durrell!!!!He uses the cento form. He or his secretary copies from his notebooksinto his essays. Wow.
>>
>> Bill
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 

From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sat Jul  7 16:29:17 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 19:29:17 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <20070707153700.FZOD3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <BAY108-F407D818E33AD3AEF9D1D1BB0000@phx.gbl>	<001201c7c04f$cf375d90$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>	<468F88F2.6080002@wfu.edu>
	<20070707153700.FZOD3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <469021CD.9080201@wfu.edu>



On 7/7/2007 11:36 AM, william godshalk wrote:

>> These days I think it safer and smarter to leave those old terms 
>> behind, back in the 1990s.  Look more closely.  Then look again.   
>> Discrimination, in the Paterian sense, is needed.  And then more 
>> laughter.
>> writes Charles.
>
>
>         Well, yes, but still and at the same time, we need categories
>         to organize our thinking. We need terms in order to
>         discriminate. Without categories we could not discriminate
>         between "literature" and "trees." See Women, Fire, and
>         Dangerous Things.
>

Yes, Bill.  Of course.  Categories that actually work and that are 
clearly defined serve a purpose.  I do not deny that I am in the Western 
tradition. 

Note that I declared that I feel comfortable with what I call Paterian 
discrimination.  I have a sound idea of what kind of process that 
involves--as Pater sets out his program in the 'Preface' to /The 
Renaissance/, the reader/viewer avoids abstraction and generalization, 
turning instead to the object and his own experience of it, asking: 
'What is this work to me?  Why?  What particular features make it 
effective for me?  How do those features relate to its time, it history, 
and the longer tradition?"   

When I say I shrug off pm as a useful term I am specifically talking 
about the hazy buzz of pm.  I worked all the way through that in those 
old quaint days of the 1990s.  I found one best critic for me who could 
use primary texts (re Bruce's note) as well as all of the strong 
statements about what was being called pm.  Brian McHale.  Tel Aviv 
University.  McHale knows his literature first.  He rarely makes a 
declaration without strong evidence at hand.  Most critics however fail 
to discriminate between the many pretend pms--what is called pm in 
France does not work so well in the US; what is called pm in Mixed Media 
does not work so well with literary works; &c.  Too many slapdash 
applications of the word.

Thus the need to discriminate, to look more closely, which for me and 
for an increasing number of critics means leaving that old term behind.  
It does smell of Routledge overstock and remainder bins, eh?

C&c.

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sat Jul  7 16:37:21 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 19:37:21 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <20070707160258.GBWP3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <5862586.1183822550425.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<20070707160258.GBWP3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <469023B1.7060009@wfu.edu>



On 7/7/2007 12:02 PM, william godshalk wrote:

>
>
> But the text will return -- the return of the repressed! The New 
> Critics took us back to the text. Some where a New New Criticism is 
> slouching toward MLA Headquarters. 

This is already happening in nineteenth century studies, where strong 
calls for a strategic formalism are regular.

Twentieth-century studies in a bit more divided in its desires and its 
pursuit of self-knowledge these days.  (Some practitioners have even 
started saying that they study 'literature after 1900.') 

CLS

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************



From albigensian at hotmail.com  Sat Jul  7 16:26:19 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 18:26:19 -0500
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <3F30C63A-2CD5-11DC-8121-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <BAY108-F364D757CEF3ADBFDA6A447B0000@phx.gbl>


Michael said:
>No, Bill, you do not understand.  Postcolonial theory is about
>colonialism and what follows.  So they tell me.  How can you read a
>book without knowing whether the writer is oppressed?  But it is such a
>big field.

I would like to venture that both Bill and Michael are more rigid in their 
use of "theory" than the issue warrants.  i think now that my use of Bill's 
"categories" unintentionally enforced that rigidity. The only non-leaky 
commonality of postcolonial theories, readings, etc., is that they deal with 
areas once ruling or once ruled by empires--I actually prefer to think of 
the general field as Empire Studies, rather than postcolonial.  In any case, 
Empire (in Egypt, for instance, Ptolemaic, Ottoman, French, British, etc.) 
absolutely affected the political and cultural permutations of the region, a 
point made by Michael:

If reading Durrell, for example, one would want to know
>about post-Ottoman colonial theory, and also post-Byzantine colonial
>theory, and that is just for reading Bitter Lemons.  Post-Arab colonial
>theory would not go amiss for catching the wider frame of reference.
>These are after all the great imperiums that have shaped and continue
>to shape the Middle East and the Mediterranean to this day -- culture,
>language, thought, religion, even landscape.

Michael's summary is fairly straight on, though I will take exception to his 
earlier comment that one can't read a book without knowing if the author is 
oppressed.  That is exactly what youdon't assume; close reading will elicit 
power structures or their subversion--think of LD's description of 
Mountolive's dealings with Memlik Pasha or Nessim's gift of the Qu'ran. 
Postcolonial reading just keeps an eye open to the relationships of a 
work--race, gender, power relationships.  No, it doesn't save the world.  
But this discourse is especially productive, I think, for critical thinking, 
as the parallels of past empires and present international politics are 
evident, even for the untrained undergraduate.

So I would like to know
>from Pamela which of these relevant postcolonialisms she deals with
>when turning out her product.

I hope that I answered the question.  peace, all--Pamela

>
>:Michael
>
>
>
>On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 10:42  pm, william godshalk wrote:
>
> > Michael,
> >
> > A literary theory is about literature, not about Turks and Arabs.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > At 05:37 PM 7/7/2007, you wrote:
> >> Which particular colonialism are you post?  Ottoman?  Arab?  or
> >> something else?
> >>
> >> :Michael
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 06:43  pm, Pamela Francis wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yes, Virginia, literary texts ARE still read in universities...and I
> >>> feel a real return of the close reading, at least in some areas.  And
> >>> one still has to have an "area" or "period" in which the academic is
> >>> well-read; I, for instance, am a "modernist"--however, I read
> >>> modernist texts using what Bill has called the "necessary category"
> >>> of
> >>> postcolonial theory.  This means i use that category to help get at
> >>> the text, but it still requires careful close reading of the primary
> >>> text.  Some academics, however, make "theory" their "area" and their
> >>> "period".  I don't know about other universities, but the English
> >>> dept
> >>> (graduate level) at Rice is very primary-text oriented, but even
> >>> undergraduates are expected to be familiar with the variety of
> >>> theoretical categories--or lenses--to aid their reading of the text.
> >>> I find it very constructive--close reading alone, without any sort of
> >>> structure, too often winds up being "what this novel means to me"--in
> >>> short, it does nothing.  Some people, of course, don't want their
> >>> reading to "do anything" and that's fine.  But in order to compete
> >>> with other departments, such as the sciences or business, which
> >>> produce a "product", we have to be able to say we're doing something.
> >>> This is a big bone of contention in English departments
> >>> everywhere--Stanley Fish, for instance, thinks we're just kidding
> >>> ourselves and should just admit that the study of literature has no
> >>> use-value, and sit around on our elitist butts and read books just
> >>> for
> >>> the fun of it.  Which, of course, he is doing, at a six-figure salary
> >>> that could pay for two or three positions for instructors who
> >>> actually
> >>> teach classes.  Others of us want students to know that literature
> >>> does mean something--that it came out of a particular context and
> >>> makes certain points, undermines certain metanarratives, subverts
> >>> this
> >>> cultural assumption, bolsters that ideology.  But that New Criticism
> >>> slouching toward the MLA never really went away; it's just been
> >>> exploited by categories with sexier names.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> >>>> Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >>>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
> >>>> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:02:47 -0400
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Bruce asks some questions:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm curious -- are primary
> >>>> texts still taught in the universities these days?  Or are they on
> >>>> the supplemental, not-required reading list?  Not a silly
> >>>> question.  Read the big academic journals these days and you note
> >>>> that primary texts are simply used to support whims and theories.
> >>>> Presumably, writing those kinds of articles will advance your
> >>>> academic
> >>>> career.  You never have to touch ground.  Didn't Swift write
> >>>> about such airheads living in the sky?
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, some of us teach literary texts, e.g. Shakespeare, Milton,
> >>>> Woolf. I leave philosophy (i.e. theory) to the philosophers who have
> >>>> their bastion down the hall from English.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, in your description of the pretentious world of the MLA, I
> >>>> think
> >>>> you
> >>>> may be correct -- for the moment. Theory seems to be more prominent
> >>>> than
> >>>> literature, postcolonial theory more prominent than, say, Haggard's
> >>>> She or John Masters's wonderful Indian novels.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> But the text will return -- the return of the repressed! The New
> >>>> Critics
> >>>> took us back to the text. Some where a New New Criticism is
> >>>> slouching
> >>>> toward MLA Headquarters.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Gulliver's Travels, Part 3.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Bill
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ***************************************
> >>>> W. L.
> >>>> Godshalk
> >>>>         *
> >>>> Department of
> >>>> English         *
> >>>> University of
> >>>> Cincinnati
> >>>> Stellar disorder  *
> >>>> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> >>>> 513-281-5927
> >>>> ***************************************
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> ILDS mailing list
> >>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> >>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> ILDS mailing list
> >>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> >>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> ILDS mailing list
> >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> >
> > ***************************************
> > W. L. Godshalk		*
> > Department of English         *
> > University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> > 513-281-5927
> > ***************************************
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ILDS mailing list
> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 17:19:13 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 01:19:13 +0100
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <46901E0D.7010903@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DB09B71C-2CE8-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Whether or not one initially read Prospero's Cell as a journal, it 
would hardly come as a blow to discover that on 19 October 1937 Durrell 
did not actually enter into his notebook that observation about winter 
quarters for consuls during the wars between Macedon and Rome.  The 
journal is a device which serves Durrell's ruminations, his delivering 
up of history, folklore, weather conditions, philosophy, his enjoyment 
and feeling for the place, for those years, for his youth, and to 
contrast that with impinging events, events that in fact have already 
come to pass by the time he completes his book.  It achieves that 
beautifully and rings true.

Bitter Lemons also rings true, and indeed here Durrell has a much more 
critical audience as he is dealing with public events with which the 
original readers of the book were aware, sometimes participated in.  
Some may not like his point of view, but he is not just making things 
up.  It is remarkable how often the 'characters', including the unnamed 
characters, including some you would swear had been created for effect, 
are real and identifiable people, and who uttered the thoughts given 
them in the book.

In both cases, Prospero and Bitter Lemons, and in Marine Venus too, 
Lawrence Durrell is there.  Always the same man.  Moving through time 
and from place to place, reflecting on his experiences.  I trust 
Durrell in this, and through that I have learnt a few things.

:Michael


On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 12:13  am, James Gifford wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> It may be a 'postmodern move' (whatever that means), but the Durrell of
> his autobiographical travel narratives is certainly a character, often
> with very little in common with what the biographical author actually
> got up to.  Case in point -- the journal of _Prospero's Cell_ is a
> created artifact.  The characters of _Bitter Lemons_ are explicitly
> called characters, which is a tip off for me...  The shorter works are
> largely invented as well.
>
> I don't trust Durrell for 'truth' when I read him -- I enjoy the ride
> instead.  Fiction is, by its very nature, a lie.  It took me a while to
> get over my frustrations with Durrell for that, but I think it was
> struggle that was useful, at least for me and my development as a 
> reader.
>
> Best,
> James
>
> Bruce Redwine wrote:
>> Bill, I guess I'm just too naive and trusting.  I don't worry about 
>> ontology and finding the real LD.  I don't much worry about authorial 
>> masks and personae (the old New Criticism concern), particularly when 
>> dealing with non-fiction.  These kinds of intricate games I leave to 
>> the academy, which makes a profession out of such things.  I take the 
>> "me" of paragraph two pretty much at face value.  I hear and see 
>> Lawrence Durrell speaking.  He will, of course, occasionally invent, 
>> transpose, tell a fib, even plagiarize, but I like to think he's 
>> usually doing it in good faith, for whatever personal reason or just 
>> in the interest of telling a good story.  Don't we all do that?  Why 
>> not give the guy the same break?
>>
>> As to Montaigne, I'm thinking of his skepticism and the agility of 
>> his mind.  Also his use of history and classical sources.  Although 
>> Montaigne doesn't travel, his mind and imagination ranges through 
>> time and history and view the present through that lens.  Which 
>> Durrell also does.  Do we ask what Montaigne's standards are, aside 
>> from such broad categories as skepticism?  I think not.  I put him in 
>> the same category as Shakespeare (in fact, that's how I got 
>> introduced to him -- in a Shakespeare course!).  I owe much to you 
>> academics.
>>
>> Bruce
>
>


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 17:29:08 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 01:29:08 +0100
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F364D757CEF3ADBFDA6A447B0000@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3DE7368F-2CEA-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Yes, but where did this term 'postcolonial' theory come from?  There is 
an angle to it, I suspect, and a boundary -- things it includes and 
excludes, and does so in certain ways to a certain purpose, and 
arranged by certain people with an agenda.  My suggestion is that the 
so-called theory is in fact a highly tendentious, ideological and in 
fact extremely narrow-minded, short-sighted and basically unlearned way 
of looking at history and culture, not to mention literature.

:Michael



On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 12:26  am, Pamela Francis wrote:

>
> Michael said:
>> No, Bill, you do not understand.  Postcolonial theory is about
>> colonialism and what follows.  So they tell me.  How can you read a
>> book without knowing whether the writer is oppressed?  But it is such 
>> a
>> big field.
>
> I would like to venture that both Bill and Michael are more rigid in 
> their
> use of "theory" than the issue warrants.  i think now that my use of 
> Bill's
> "categories" unintentionally enforced that rigidity. The only non-leaky
> commonality of postcolonial theories, readings, etc., is that they 
> deal with
> areas once ruling or once ruled by empires--I actually prefer to think 
> of
> the general field as Empire Studies, rather than postcolonial.  In any 
> case,
> Empire (in Egypt, for instance, Ptolemaic, Ottoman, French, British, 
> etc.)
> absolutely affected the political and cultural permutations of the 
> region, a
> point made by Michael:
>
> If reading Durrell, for example, one would want to know
>> about post-Ottoman colonial theory, and also post-Byzantine colonial
>> theory, and that is just for reading Bitter Lemons.  Post-Arab 
>> colonial
>> theory would not go amiss for catching the wider frame of reference.
>> These are after all the great imperiums that have shaped and continue
>> to shape the Middle East and the Mediterranean to this day -- culture,
>> language, thought, religion, even landscape.
>
> Michael's summary is fairly straight on, though I will take exception 
> to his
> earlier comment that one can't read a book without knowing if the 
> author is
> oppressed.  That is exactly what youdon't assume; close reading will 
> elicit
> power structures or their subversion--think of LD's description of
> Mountolive's dealings with Memlik Pasha or Nessim's gift of the Qu'ran.
> Postcolonial reading just keeps an eye open to the relationships of a
> work--race, gender, power relationships.  No, it doesn't save the 
> world.
> But this discourse is especially productive, I think, for critical 
> thinking,
> as the parallels of past empires and present international politics are
> evident, even for the untrained undergraduate.
>
> So I would like to know
>> from Pamela which of these relevant postcolonialisms she deals with
>> when turning out her product.
>
> I hope that I answered the question.  peace, all--Pamela
>
>>
>> :Michael
>>


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 17:32:47 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 20:32:47 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Roman imperialism and colonization
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F364D757CEF3ADBFDA6A447B0000@phx.gbl>
References: <3F30C63A-2CD5-11DC-8121-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<BAY108-F364D757CEF3ADBFDA6A447B0000@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070708003247.OGVF15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Jul  7 17:37:12 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 17:37:12 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
Message-ID: <21165626.1183855032400.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I question that, that Lawrence Durrell is his own created fiction, who invents and reinvents himself whenever he writes.  This implies he could be anything he wanted to be.  He isn't.  He is a single personality with a unique vision and a unique manner of expressing it.  That's what we read and respond to.  He is a self with a core identity, not a schizophrenic with multiple personalities.  The fact he alters the reality around him for the purposes of storytelling -- that I consider incidental.  Writers and artists like to propagate ideas about having multiple selves -- Keats most famously -- but I don't believe it.  I see Keats as one person who could project his imagination into different contexts.  The same with Durrell.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>Sent: Jul 7, 2007 4:13 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>
>Bruce,
>
>It may be a 'postmodern move' (whatever that means), but the Durrell of 
>his autobiographical travel narratives is certainly a character, often 
>with very little in common with what the biographical author actually 
>got up to.

From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 17:46:40 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 20:46:40 -0400
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <3DE7368F-2CEA-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <BAY108-F364D757CEF3ADBFDA6A447B0000@phx.gbl>
	<3DE7368F-2CEA-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070708004640.LUMP7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 17:51:46 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 01:51:46 +0100
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <20070708004640.LUMP7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <67031AE6-2CED-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Come again?

:Michael


On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 01:46  am, william godshalk wrote:

> Okay, after the coronation of Bush 2, I do believe in conspiracies. 
> Perhaps theory is a way of keeping us from close analysis of what is 
> actually happening. Is theory a way of intellectualizing the fact that 
> Iraq is a killing ground, a slaughter house? Theory is a way of 
> keeping a segment of the society off the streets and away from 
> revolution.
>
> Bill
>
> At 08:29 PM 7/7/2007, you wrote:
>
> Yes, but where did this term 'postcolonial' theory come from?? There is
> an angle to it, I suspect, and a boundary -- things it includes and
> excludes, and does so in certain ways to a certain purpose, and
> arranged by certain people with an agenda.? My suggestion is that the
> so-called theory is in fact a highly tendentious, ideological and in
> fact extremely narrow-minded, short-sighted and basically unlearned way
> of looking at history and culture, not to mention literature.
> :Michael
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 18:01:47 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 02:01:47 +0100
Subject: [ilds] waterloo
In-Reply-To: <20070708003247.OGVF15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <CD352386-2CEE-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Durrell shat.  Indeed he died on the loo.  His 'character' Sabri Tahir 
in Bitter Lemons was shot dead in January 1996.

:Michael


On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 01:32  am, william godshalk wrote:
>
> But I still worry that the proper distinction has not been made 
> between literary texts and historical texts. Marlow is a literary 
> character. He never shits -- that we know of. Conrad was a real 
> person, and as far as we know, defecated with some regularity.
>
> Bill
>
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 18:04:55 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 21:04:55 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <21165626.1183855032400.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.
	earthlink.net>
References: <21165626.1183855032400.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070708010455.HVGT3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 18:07:41 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 21:07:41 -0400
Subject: [ilds] the inadequacy of theory
In-Reply-To: <67031AE6-2CED-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <20070708004640.LUMP7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<67031AE6-2CED-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070708010751.LVOT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>


>Theory is a way of keeping intellectuals from actively engaging in politics.

***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 18:17:37 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 21:17:37 -0400
Subject: [ilds] waterloo
In-Reply-To: <CD352386-2CEE-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <20070708003247.OGVF15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<CD352386-2CEE-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070708011757.LWAH7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 18:20:57 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 02:20:57 +0100
Subject: [ilds] post-Ottoman theory
In-Reply-To: <20070708004640.LUMP7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <7ADC1862-2CF1-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

I do not know whether postcolonial theory as taught in American 
universities keeps the cleaning ladies off the streets, but some 
historical knowledge of the Ottoman Empire, whose western extremity was 
Serbia and whose eastern extremity was Iraq, goes a long way towards 
understanding why those two places continue to be serious problems in 
our day.  Durrell of course lived in Belgrade, also in Cyprus, another 
very recent object of Ottoman imperialism, and before that in Egypt, 
which likewise had been (technically until 1914) part of the Ottoman 
Empire.  In fact from 1935 when he went to Greece until 1956 when he 
went to France, the only places he lived that had not been part of the 
Ottoman Empire were Corfu and Argentina.

:Michael


On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 01:46  am, william godshalk wrote:

> Perhaps theory is a way of keeping us from close analysis of what is 
> actually happening. Is theory a way of intellectualizing the fact that 
> Iraq is a killing ground, a slaughter house? Theory is a way of 
> keeping a segment of the society off the streets and away from 
> revolution.
>
> Bill
>
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 18:22:54 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 02:22:54 +0100
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <20070708010455.HVGT3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <C06906D6-2CF1-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Maybe Durrell should have shat on the page.  That would have kept 
academics happy in their search for truth.

:Michael



On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 02:04  am, william godshalk wrote:

> Bruce, I agree that the idea of multiple personalities (which Durrell 
> recurrently writes about) is strained. But there is absolutely a 
> different between the words that Durrell puts on the page and the man 
> himself -- the man who lived and died. We find historical traces of 
> this Durrell. But words on a page will never (I believe) be the same 
> as this man who shits. See Ernest Becker's The Denial of Death and 
> Milan Kundera's The Unbearable Lightness of Being for starters. How 
> can words on a page have a copy identity?
>
> Bill
>
> I question that, that Lawrence Durrell is his own created fiction, who 
> invents and reinvents himself whenever he writes.? This implies he 
> could be anything he wanted to be.? He isn't.? He is a single 
> personality with a unique vision and a unique manner of expressing 
> it.? That's what we read and respond to.? He is a self with a core 
> identity, not a schizophrenic with multiple personalities.? The fact 
> he alters the reality around him for the purposes of storytelling -- 
> that I consider incidental.? Writers and artists like to propagate 
> ideas about having multiple selves -- Keats most famously -- but I 
> don't believe it.? I see Keats as one person who could project his 
> imagination into different contexts.? The same with Durrell.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
> >Sent: Jul 7, 2007 4:13 PM
> >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
> >
> >Bruce,
> >
> >It may be a 'postmodern move' (whatever that means), but the Durrell 
> of
> >his autobiographical travel narratives is certainly a character, often
> >with very little in common with what the biographical author actually
> >got up to.
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 18:26:07 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 21:26:07 -0400
Subject: [ilds] characters and real people?
In-Reply-To: <DB09B71C-2CE8-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <46901E0D.7010903@gmail.com>
	<DB09B71C-2CE8-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070708012617.OJON15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 18:31:51 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 02:31:51 +0100
Subject: [ilds] characters and real people?
In-Reply-To: <20070708012617.OJON15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <00C4AD51-2CF3-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

You're still there, Bill, though others might deny it.

:Michael


On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 02:26  am, william godshalk wrote:

> Michael writes:
>
>
> In both cases, Prospero and Bitter Lemons, and in Marine Venus too,
> Lawrence Durrell is there.? Always the same man.? Moving through time
> and from place to place, reflecting on his experiences.
>
>
> And what about the historical Napoleon? Is he still there, always the 
> same man, moving though time, reflecting on the Iron Duke, cursing his 
> mistake at Waterloo? Where the hell did those Germans come from, 
> anyway?
>
> Bill (caught in time)
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 18:30:28 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 21:30:28 -0400
Subject: [ilds] the god who shits
In-Reply-To: <C06906D6-2CF1-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <20070708010455.HVGT3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<C06906D6-2CF1-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 18:35:05 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 21:35:05 -0400
Subject: [ilds] characters and real people?
In-Reply-To: <00C4AD51-2CF3-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <20070708012617.OJON15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<00C4AD51-2CF3-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sat Jul  7 18:38:28 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 21:38:28 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Roman imperialism and colonization
In-Reply-To: <20070708003247.OGVF15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <3F30C63A-2CD5-11DC-8121-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>	<BAY108-F364D757CEF3ADBFDA6A447B0000@phx.gbl>
	<20070708003247.OGVF15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <46904014.9030407@wfu.edu>

On 7/7/2007 8:32 PM, william godshalk wrote:

> It seems that a close study of Roman colonization would be very 
> helpful. Recall Marlow's comments at the beginning of /The Heart of 
> Darkness/. 

Take all of Kipling as your text.  The poetry and /Puck of Pook's Hill/ 
dramatize the study you imagine.   Then Kim as the necessary cap.

C&c.

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sat Jul  7 19:02:15 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 20:02:15 -0600
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <3DE7368F-2CEA-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <3DE7368F-2CEA-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <469045A7.5090001@gmail.com>

You do realize that your analysis repeats the classic questions of 
discourse analysis: what does it include or exclude; for what purpose; 
by whom; how.  Not every scholar asks those questions well, without 
bias, or in agreement with our biases, but I hardly think dismissing the 
practice is a useful move.

 > My suggestion is that the
> so-called theory is in fact a highly tendentious,
 > ideological and in fact extremely narrow-minded,
 > short-sighted and basically unlearned way of
 > looking at history and culture, not to mention
 > literature.

Yes, but don't you say that for a reason, excluding or including certain 
approaches, from a particular social position, and with your own bias? 
This comment is true of bad theory, but should we throw out the good 
stuff too?  I'd rather we were more specific about what is not useful, 
where, and when.

Moreover, let's no forget that a book can have an effect independent of 
the author's intentions.  Analyzing those impacts is a viable as 
analyzing the author's intentions or contexts, though it certainly has 
a motivation.  Choosing to exclude those same things is equally driven 
by a motivation.

Best,
James

From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 19:44:39 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 03:44:39 +0100
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <469045A7.5090001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2C21490A-2CFD-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

I certainly have my biases.  Putting them out there is a way of testing 
them.  I am certainly not dismissing the classic procedure of asking 
questions and examining answers.  It is as old as the hills, and like 
most people I use it all the time.  But this postmodernism business 
advances by deceit.  It pretends it is dealing with the author or the 
book, when really it is promoting the critic into a figure of absolute 
authority, to the extent that neither the author nor the book are 
allowed anything to say, nothing, that is, that cannot be manipulated 
by the critic to say what the critic wants to say.

As for postcolonial theory it is not theory at all.  That too is part 
of the deceit.  It is a programme, previously devised, and produces the 
right answers on demand.

Of course a book can have effects independent of the author's 
intentions.  And there are books we read whose authors we do not know.  
But it is always right to set comment on a work within the context of 
an author's aims, his life, his times, and to use those conditions 
where one can as a test of one's argument and understanding.   But too 
often the author is stripped of his intentions, and the book is 
stripped of its author, for the self-aggrandising sake of the critic.  
The rationale behind these so-called theories and isms is to reduce the 
author and his book into something untrustworthy, unreliable, masked, 
unknown, the better to turn the critic into a divining high priest.  I 
find the whole thing a silly and dishonest enterprise.

:Michael




On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 03:02  am, James Gifford wrote:

> You do realize that your analysis repeats the classic questions of
> discourse analysis: what does it include or exclude; for what purpose;
> by whom; how.  Not every scholar asks those questions well, without
> bias, or in agreement with our biases, but I hardly think dismissing 
> the
> practice is a useful move.
>
>> My suggestion is that the
>> so-called theory is in fact a highly tendentious,
>> ideological and in fact extremely narrow-minded,
>> short-sighted and basically unlearned way of
>> looking at history and culture, not to mention
>> literature.
>
> Yes, but don't you say that for a reason, excluding or including 
> certain
> approaches, from a particular social position, and with your own bias?
> This comment is true of bad theory, but should we throw out the good
> stuff too?  I'd rather we were more specific about what is not useful,
> where, and when.
>
> Moreover, let's no forget that a book can have an effect independent of
> the author's intentions.  Analyzing those impacts is a viable as
> analyzing the author's intentions or contexts, though it certainly has
> a motivation.  Choosing to exclude those same things is equally driven
> by a motivation.
>
> Best,
> James
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sat Jul  7 19:55:37 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 22:55:37 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <469045A7.5090001@gmail.com>
References: <3DE7368F-2CEA-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<469045A7.5090001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46905229.3080603@wfu.edu>

On 7/7/2007 10:02 PM, James Gifford wrote:

>I'd rather we were more specific about what is not useful, 
>where, and when.
>
"Being more specific"--that is what I support, enjoy, and learn from.  
Specific evidence.  Specific points of inquiry.

Here is an example--a question through which I hope to give some 
specific, self-aware tact to our chartless explorations:  I do not 
recall at all the specific origin of our subject header "/baboonism/."  
What was that? 

Is there some connection between "/baboonism/" and our reading of 
/Bitter Lemons/?   Are we recalling the /babus /who greet Durrell as he 
arrives in Cyprus ("Towards an Eastern Landfall")?  

I find /babus /fascinating figures.  One of my great heroes in all of 
literature is Hurree Chunder Mookherjee, from Kipling's /Kim/.  I would 
greatly like to grow up be Hurree Babu.  Perhaps I have already.  I 
fancy that all of this is self-revealing, as having something to do with 
my provincial origins and cosmopolitan aspirations.   Along the same 
lines, I think the provincial /wunderkind /Rudyard Kipling, despite his 
dreaming of being a Kim or a Colonel Creighton, understood that depp 
down he was really Hurree Babu.   Certainly Max Beerbohm drew him that way.

*From the OED:*

[Hindi b{amac}b{umac}.] 

    *a. orig. A Hindu title of respect, answering to our Mr. or Esquire; 
hence, a Hindu gentleman; also (in Anglo-Indian use), a native clerk or 
official who writes English; sometimes applied disparagingly to a Hindu 
or, more particularly, a Bengali, with a superficial English education.*
1782 India Gaz. 12 Oct. (Subscription-list), Cantoo Baboo..200 Sicca 
Rupees. 1823 HEBER Indian Jrnl. 11 Oct., Some of the more wealthy baboos 
(the name of the native Hindoo gentleman answering to our esquire). 1854 
STOCQUELER Brit. India 120 The sircar, baboo, purvoe, or whatever he may 
be called, is the chancellor of the exchequer, and it is not 
unseldom..that his master is his debtor. c1866 A. LYALL Old Pindaree I'd 
sooner be robbed by a tall man..Than be fleeced by a sneaking Baboo. 
1931 Times Lit. Suppl. 5 Mar. 174/3 Robin's babu clerk. 1934 H. G. WELLS 
Experiment in Autobiog. I. vi. 309 The prose was over-elaborate and with 
that same flavour of the Babu, to which I have called attention.

    *b. babu English, the ornate and somewhat unidiomatic English of an 
Indian who has learnt the language principally from books. So by 
extension, babu, attrib., excessively ornate.*
1878 GEO. ELIOT Let. 27 June (1956) VII. 33 Something more amusing{em}a 
bit of Baboo English from an Indian journal. 1889 BARR?RE & LELAND Dict. 
Slang I. 58/2 Baboo-English..applied to the peculiar English which is 
rather written than spoken by the natives in India. 1890 FARMER Slang I. 
86/1 Baboo-English... Its main peculiarity is its grandiloquence, a 
feature born of an attempt to adapt Western speech to Eastern imagery 
and hyperbole. 1925 Weekly Westminster 4 July 258 They irritate by their 
rather Babu familiarity with West End place-names. 1926 A. MAYHEW 
Education of India xii. 153 The [Indian] matriculate's mastery of 
English, despite all the ridicule unjustly bestowed on Babu English, is 
far more complete and practical than that shown by the normally 
intelligent and industrious English boy at the same stage. 1934 R. C. 
GOFFIN S.P.E. Tract XLI. 23 The perpetrations universally recognized as 
'babu English' with its preposterously learned pretensions. 1936 C. S. 
LEWIS Allegory of Love ii. 81 The fantastical 'babu' ornaments of the 
style [of the De Nuptiis] were admired.

    *Hence babudom, -ism.*
18.. Pall Mall Gaz. 18 July 11 Baboodom is making ready for its great 
protest against education or any other cess. c1879 G. ABERIGH-MACKAY 21 
Days in India 49 However much we may desire to diffuse Babooism over the 
Empire. 1907 Westm. Gaz. 18 Dec. 1/3 The partition of Bengal supplied 
the simmering discontent of Babudom with a definite grievance.

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 20:32:42 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 04:32:42 +0100
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <46905229.3080603@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <E2794020-2D03-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Baboons have bare arses and raise their hands to the sun in worship.  
In this they encompass the sublime and the ridiculous, though we do not 
yet know which end is which.

However, I would like to introduce another subject: Suburbaboonism.  Or 
rather reintroduce it, as I have mentioned this before, though less 
mysteriously as suburbanism, and how Durrell starts off Bitter Lemons 
with various remarks, not unsympathetic, about the suburbanising 
tendencies of the British abroad, as in Cyprus, Malta, Gibraltar -- to 
which I would add Durrell's own India, not to mention his experience of 
growing up in South London.  I wonder whether Durrell is not a great 
suburban writer, the Betjeman of the Med, the man who got to these 
sunny places just before the rest of us, and whose achievement has been 
to put these places into the suburbs of our imaginations.  Corfu, for 
example.  Why go to Corfu?  Because it was so suburban, and with flying 
boats coming in from England on the mail run.  Why go to Cyprus?  
Suburban too, though Durrell adds the quite proper excuse of it being 
within the sterling area.  But even so, and allowing for the fact that 
northern Cyprus is the most beautiful part of the country, Kyrenia was 
definitely the most suburban spot he could have chosen.  He even wanted 
to open a bookshop to sell to his fellow suburbanites.  Durrell never 
actually goes out into the wild and woolly.  In Greece, before he was 
kicked out by the Germans, he avoided the hard bare islands of the 
Cyclades (he was dragged there), and he hated the magnificent Mani 
peninsula just down the coast from twee Kalamata.  Domestication is 
primary.  Cyprus was a delicate balancing act between suburbanising 
English people and suburbanising Cypriots.  Bitter Lemons is the story 
of their suburban tragedy.

:Michael


On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 03:55  am, slighcl wrote:

> I do not recall at all the specific origin of our subject header 
> "baboonism."? What was that??
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 20:30:38 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:30:38 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <2C21490A-2CFD-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <469045A7.5090001@gmail.com>
	<2C21490A-2CFD-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070708033038.MEAL7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 20:40:05 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:40:05 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Durrell didn't go there
In-Reply-To: <E2794020-2D03-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <46905229.3080603@wfu.edu>
	<E2794020-2D03-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070708034006.ORPD15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jul  7 20:47:46 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:47:46 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Corvo and Forster -- what goes around
In-Reply-To: <E2794020-2D03-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <46905229.3080603@wfu.edu>
	<E2794020-2D03-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070708034756.ORXR15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Jul  7 21:01:06 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 21:01:06 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
Message-ID: <31209850.1183867266519.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

No, I disagree with this, absolutely disagree.  My reading of literature is not to consider equally any possible reading of a text.  I want to know what the author is doing and intending, not to understand and give equal weight to whatever may be occurring in the reader's mind.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>Sent: Jul 7, 2007 7:02 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>
>Moreover, let's no forget that a book can have an effect independent of 
>the author's intentions.  Analyzing those impacts is a viable as 
>analyzing the author's intentions or contexts, though it certainly has 
>a motivation.  Choosing to exclude those same things is equally driven 
>by a motivation.
>
>Best,
>James


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Jul  7 21:19:52 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 21:19:52 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Durrell didn't go there
Message-ID: <29023236.1183868392757.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Jul  7 21:23:56 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 21:23:56 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
Message-ID: <7821894.1183868636413.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From albigensian at hotmail.com  Sat Jul  7 21:06:04 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:06:04 -0500
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
Message-ID: <BAY108-F8A3357231CBB02E809511B0070@phx.gbl>


Bill said:
>Okay, after the coronation of Bush 2, I do believe in conspiracies.
>Perhaps theory is a way of keeping us from close analysis of what is
>actually happening. Is theory a way of intellectualizing the fact that
>Iraq is a killing ground, a slaughter house? Theory is a way of keeping a
>segment of the society off the streets and away from revolution.

I would say exactly the opposite--that "theory" (which both you and Michael 
are using much too rigidly) is a way to analyze what is happening--and I, at 
least, have never found that thinking about a situation automatically 
justifies it.  I'll admit, I am not likely to join any revolutionary 
organizations, though I do regularly send money to the Maryknoll sisters.  
At least i know why i do, and I want my students to know why they do or 
don't do things like this as well.

Bill is concerned that "theory" is yet another level of the power hierarchy, 
and Michael is convinced 'postcolonial theory' is a club of some sort 
regulated by the postcolonial police.

Michael says:
My suggestion is that the so-called theory is in fact a highly tendentious, 
ideological and in
fact extremely narrow-minded, short-sighted and basically unlearned way
of looking at history and culture, not to mention literature.

Both Bill and Michael continue to refer to theory as if it is a consolidated 
set of rules and concepts that must be followed religiously--some sort of a 
twelve-step program for reading a text.  But I must especially take 
exception to the "basically unlearned way" of looking at culture, etc.  
Postcolonial--or as i prefer to say, Empire studies, requires both broad 
knowledge (long-ranging histories of a region) and deep investigations 
(human migrations, minority religions, etc) in a vast array of fields.  
indeed, this is its appeal to me, and, I assure you, many other postcolonial 
scholars (I have no scare quotes on postcolonial this time--until there is a 
more accurate way to describe my-and many others' interests, I have to go 
with the admittedly problematic postclonial).

I can't --and wouldn't--try to "convert" either of you, even if there were 
some thing, some program to sign you up to.  I will defend my own position, 
however,my own approach to literature, as my way of making sense of the 
world, which I think is why many of us read at all. I will also defend the 
intellectual abilities of fellow "postcolonial" (quotes aqain!) scholars. 
---Pamela







>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
>Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 20:46:40 -0400
>
>
>
>Okay, after the coronation of Bush 2, I do believe in conspiracies.
>Perhaps theory is a way of keeping us from close analysis of what is
>actually happening. Is theory a way of intellectualizing the fact that
>Iraq is a killing ground, a slaughter house? Theory is a way of keeping a
>segment of the society off the streets and away from revolution.
>
>
>Bill
>
>
>At 08:29 PM 7/7/2007, you wrote:
>
>Yes, but where did this term
>'postcolonial' theory come from?? There is
>
>an angle to it, I suspect, and a boundary -- things it includes and
>
>excludes, and does so in certain ways to a certain purpose, and
>
>arranged by certain people with an agenda.? My suggestion is that
>the
>
>so-called theory is in fact a highly tendentious, ideological and in
>
>
>fact extremely narrow-minded, short-sighted and basically unlearned way
>
>
>of looking at history and culture, not to mention literature.
>
>:Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 12:26? am, Pamela Francis
>wrote:
>
>
> >
>
> > Michael said:
>
> >> No, Bill, you do not understand.? Postcolonial theory is
>about
>
> >> colonialism and what follows.? So they tell me.? How
>can you read a
>
> >> book without knowing whether the writer is oppressed?? But
>it is such
>
> >> a
>
> >> big field.
>
> >
>
> > I would like to venture that both Bill and Michael are more rigid in
>
>
> > their
>
> > use of "theory" than the issue warrants.? i think now
>that my use of
>
> > Bill's
>
> > "categories" unintentionally enforced that rigidity. The
>only non-leaky
>
> > commonality of postcolonial theories, readings, etc., is that they
>
>
> > deal with
>
> > areas once ruling or once ruled by empires--I actually prefer to
>think
>
> > of
>
> > the general field as Empire Studies, rather than postcolonial.?
>In any
>
> > case,
>
> > Empire (in Egypt, for instance, Ptolemaic, Ottoman, French, British,
>
>
> > etc.)
>
> > absolutely affected the political and cultural permutations of the
>
>
> > region, a
>
> > point made by Michael:
>
> >
>
> > If reading Durrell, for example, one would want to know
>
> >> about post-Ottoman colonial theory, and also post-Byzantine
>colonial
>
> >> theory, and that is just for reading Bitter Lemons.?
>Post-Arab
>
> >> colonial
>
> >> theory would not go amiss for catching the wider frame of
>reference.
>
> >> These are after all the great imperiums that have shaped and
>continue
>
> >> to shape the Middle East and the Mediterranean to this day --
>culture,
>
> >> language, thought, religion, even landscape.
>
> >
>
> > Michael's summary is fairly straight on, though I will take
>exception
>
> > to his
>
> > earlier comment that one can't read a book without knowing if the
>
>
> > author is
>
> > oppressed.? That is exactly what youdon't assume; close reading
>will
>
> > elicit
>
> > power structures or their subversion--think of LD's description
>of
>
> > Mountolive's dealings with Memlik Pasha or Nessim's gift of the
>Qu'ran.
>
> > Postcolonial reading just keeps an eye open to the relationships of
>a
>
> > work--race, gender, power relationships.? No, it doesn't save
>the
>
> > world.
>
> > But this discourse is especially productive, I think, for critical
>
>
> > thinking,
>
> > as the parallels of past empires and present international politics
>are
>
> > evident, even for the untrained undergraduate.
>
> >
>
> > So I would like to know
>
> >> from Pamela which of these relevant postcolonialisms she deals
>with
>
> >> when turning out her product.
>
> >
>
> > I hope that I answered the question.? peace, all--Pamela
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >> :Michael
>
> >>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>ILDS mailing list
>
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>
>
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>***************************************
>W. L.
>Godshalk??
>????????*
>Department of
>English???????? *
>University of
>Cincinnati???????????
>Stellar disorder? *
>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069????? *
>513-281-5927
>***************************************
>
>


>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sat Jul  7 21:50:04 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 22:50:04 -0600
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <31209850.1183867266519.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <31209850.1183867266519.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <46906CFC.9080501@gmail.com>

Bruce comments:

 > I disagree with this, absolutely disagree.  My reading
 > of literature is not to consider equally any possible
 > reading of a text.  I want to know what the author is
 > doing and intending, not to understand and give equal
 > weight to whatever may be occurring in the reader's mind.

So, Beethoven's main theme from his 5th Symphony was taken up in WWII as 
"V" for victory in morse code -- certainly this wasn't Beethoven's 
intention, but you'd rather not consider such a thing as ever having 
importance?  I know you'd find that interesting, which is why I don't 
really believe you right now...  Did Shakespeare intend Sonnet 18 in the 
'heteronormative' way most readers read it when we put it next to Sonnet 
20?  With those two side by side, we might speculate about Shakespeare's 
intentions and the truly remarkable (and exciting) prospect of teenage 
love expressed using those words.  Many, many readers take up an 
author's words and use them to self-express or self-describe -- that has 
little to do with the author, but I still think it's fascinating to see 
literature work in that manner, giving a reader a way of articulating 
his or her inner life.

Better still, and closer to Durrell, Henry Miller wrote _Tropic of 
Cancer_, which was banned and went through some of the most important 
legal trials for censorship in the 20th Century.  It's perfectly viable 
to ask if we'd have the California pornography industry today if it 
weren't for those trials (sigh) -- yet, that wasn't part of Miller's 
intentions, so we should ignore it.  Right?

Stravinsky's "The Rite of Spring" caused a riot in Paris, which also 
wasn't his intention.  We should disregard that as well?  We have no 
interest in the result of a work?

So, for Durrell, _Bitter Lemons_ went on to win the Duff Cooper Memorial 
Prize, which is pretty clearly political.  If that wasn't his intent, 
should we again say that Durrell's intentions differ from the social and 
cultural context of the book's reception, so we disregard the history of 
the book?  That denies bibliography, and I thought we'd agreed you like 
bibliography...

I'd rather keep that field wide, wide open.  I'm not going to dismiss an 
author's intentions (though I do understand why some people do), but I'm 
also not going to say my assumptions about those intentions are the only 
thing we have to talk about (and they will *always* be assumptions about 
intentions, even with good evidence, or very likely projections in the 
Freudian sense).

Besides, no one suggested we should "consider equally any possible 
reading of a text" -- to suggest such a project is what we're talking 
about is simply a way of shutting down the debate.  Surely we should 
give at least some merit to what readers actually do while reading a 
book...  Surely we should discuss the merits of an idea rather than 
dismissing it because we can loosely and vaguely associate it with an 
ill-defined "ism" we arbitrarily despise...  I have human failings, but 
I'd at least like to aspire to avoiding such things.

Perhaps we'll just have to disagree about this one and get back to the 
book.  I respect where you're coming from, Bruce, and I have sympathy 
for your position.  However, I disagree with you about this being an 
"either / or" problem -- I want "and," and I think that plurality comes 
closer to the complex way that the world is.

Best,
James

Bruce Redwine wrote:
> No, I disagree with this, absolutely disagree.  My reading of literature is not to consider equally any possible reading of a text.  I want to know what the author is doing and intending, not to understand and give equal weight to whatever may be occurring in the reader's mind.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Jul 7, 2007 7:02 PM
>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>> Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>>
>> Moreover, let's no forget that a book can have an effect independent of 
>> the author's intentions.  Analyzing those impacts is a viable as 
>> analyzing the author's intentions or contexts, though it certainly has 
>> a motivation.  Choosing to exclude those same things is equally driven 
>> by a motivation.
>>
>> Best,
>> James
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 

From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 21:55:12 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 05:55:12 +0100
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F8A3357231CBB02E809511B0070@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <68D3CB60-2D0F-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Just as I suspected!

:Michael


On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 05:06  am, Pamela Francis wrote:

>  I do regularly send money to the Maryknoll sisters.


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sat Jul  7 21:54:14 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 21:54:14 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
Message-ID: <32549657.1183870454945.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Bill, I take you seriously, but I don't see your concern.  I meet you in person, I shake your hand, I share a drink or two with you, we exchange stories and tall tales, I like you, maybe you like me -- will I ever truly know you?  No, of course not.  Will you ever truly know me?  No.  You may be playing games with me.  I may be playing games with you.  So what?  Does this really bother me?  No.  That's the uncertainty of life.  And that's the way I read Durrell's non-fiction.  Fiction is another matter -- that gets more complicated.  But non-fiction, Durrell's travel literature, I assume is like a face to face encounter.  The Durrell I hear, the voice I hear, is the same from Prospero's Cell all the way to Caesar's Vast Ghost.  It's the same guy I love, whose voice has aged and changed over time, but basically the same.  He's an old friend.  He's the prodigal son who strays and wanders but who returns because he's basically the same.  I don't see all this as very complicated.  (I haven't read the books you mentioned but will check them out.)

Bruce 

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jul 7, 2007 6:04 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>
>Bruce, I agree that the idea of multiple personalities (which Durrellrecurrently writes about) is strained. But there is absolutely adifferent between the words that Durrell puts on the page and the manhimself -- the man who lived and died. We find historical traces of thisDurrell. But words on a page will never (I believe) be the same as thisman who shits. See Ernest Becker's The Denial of Death and MilanKundera's The Unbearable Lightness of Being for starters. How canwords on a page have a copy identity? 
>
>Bill
>
>I question that, thatLawrence Durrell is his own created fiction, who invents and reinventshimself whenever he writes.  This implies he could be anything hewanted to be.  He isn't.  He is a single personality with aunique vision and a unique manner of expressing it.  That's what weread and respond to.  He is a self with a core identity, not aschizophrenic with multiple personalities.  The fact he alters thereality around him for the purposes of storytelling -- that I considerincidental.  Writers and artists like to propagate ideas abouthaving multiple selves -- Keats most famously -- but I don't believeit.  I see Keats as one person who could project his imaginationinto different contexts.  The same with Durrell.
>
>Bruce



From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sat Jul  7 22:02:02 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:02:02 -0600
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <21165626.1183855032400.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <21165626.1183855032400.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <46906FCA.3080403@gmail.com>

Bruce responds to me by writing:

 > [Durrell] is a single personality with a unique
 > vision and a unique manner of expressing it.
 > That's what we read and respond to.  He is a
 > self with a core identity

Michael says something akin, though there is an important distinction:

 > In both cases, Prospero and Bitter Lemons, and
 > in Marine Venus too, Lawrence Durrell is there.
 > Always the same man.  Moving through time and
 > from place to place, reflecting on his experiences.

The difference is that Michael hasn't said that the Durrell behind the 
text is the same as the narrator, though the "always the same man" seems 
to equate to Bruce's "core identity."

Again, I have strong sympathies for these approaches, but for the former 
in particular, I still can't accept it.  First, this notion of the 
discrete personality that does not change and admits no internal 
contradictions would seems to run entirely contrary to Durrell's 
authorial intentions.  By your own admissions, that means you can't 
accept it...

Besides, the worldview of the Durrell who wrote _The Black Book_ and 
wrote back against Herbert Read's expressions of Surrealism's political 
agenda is sure not the same worldview of the Durrell who wrote _The 
Revolt of Aphrodite_ or the _Avignon Quintet_.  Also, before we break 
this down into "left" or "right" for these worldviews, let's just admit 
that those are useless terms for anything specific.

As for core identities, perhaps the author himself should speak (not 
that any of us trust him, so we're just speculating about the author's 
intentions, filling in the silences according to our own needs and 
desires, as per the ending of _Justine_).  In the "Kneller Tape," 
Durrell says:

"Human character? A sort of rainbow I should say, which includes the 
whole range of the spectrum. I imagine that what we call personality may 
be an illusion, and in thinking of it as a stable thing we are trying to 
put a lid on a box with no sides."

I respect what you're saying Bruce, and I can appreciate the reasoning 
behind it, but I can't accept it in this context.  Again, perhaps we'll 
just have to disagree.

Best,
James

From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 22:14:40 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 06:14:40 +0100
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <46906FCA.3080403@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2162347A-2D12-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

I am certainly not saying that Durrell remains unchanged.  He does 
change; he has experiences, he reflects on them, he saddens, he grows, 
etc; but he is still recognisably Durrell.  And what Durrell may say 
about human character in an interview (or in a book) does not alter 
that continuity that we read in his work.

:Michael



On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 06:02  am, James Gifford wrote:

> Bruce responds to me by writing:
>
>> [Durrell] is a single personality with a unique
>> vision and a unique manner of expressing it.
>> That's what we read and respond to.  He is a
>> self with a core identity
>
> Michael says something akin, though there is an important distinction:
>
>> In both cases, Prospero and Bitter Lemons, and
>> in Marine Venus too, Lawrence Durrell is there.
>> Always the same man.  Moving through time and
>> from place to place, reflecting on his experiences.
>
> The difference is that Michael hasn't said that the Durrell behind the
> text is the same as the narrator, though the "always the same man" 
> seems
> to equate to Bruce's "core identity."
>
> Again, I have strong sympathies for these approaches, but for the 
> former
> in particular, I still can't accept it.  First, this notion of the
> discrete personality that does not change and admits no internal
> contradictions would seems to run entirely contrary to Durrell's
> authorial intentions.  By your own admissions, that means you can't
> accept it...
>
> Besides, the worldview of the Durrell who wrote _The Black Book_ and
> wrote back against Herbert Read's expressions of Surrealism's political
> agenda is sure not the same worldview of the Durrell who wrote _The
> Revolt of Aphrodite_ or the _Avignon Quintet_.  Also, before we break
> this down into "left" or "right" for these worldviews, let's just admit
> that those are useless terms for anything specific.
>
> As for core identities, perhaps the author himself should speak (not
> that any of us trust him, so we're just speculating about the author's
> intentions, filling in the silences according to our own needs and
> desires, as per the ending of _Justine_).  In the "Kneller Tape,"
> Durrell says:
>
> "Human character? A sort of rainbow I should say, which includes the
> whole range of the spectrum. I imagine that what we call personality 
> may
> be an illusion, and in thinking of it as a stable thing we are trying 
> to
> put a lid on a box with no sides."
>
> I respect what you're saying Bruce, and I can appreciate the reasoning
> behind it, but I can't accept it in this context.  Again, perhaps we'll
> just have to disagree.
>
> Best,
> James
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sat Jul  7 22:29:46 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:29:46 -0600
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <2162347A-2D12-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <2162347A-2D12-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <4690764A.4010704@gmail.com>

I think we're getting closer to articulating what we both really mean 
here, so it's been a useful (pragmatism again...) exercise.

You say Durrell changes but is still recongisable in his travel books (I 
won't say "non-fiction").  That's probably more useful for both of us 
than "always the same man" or "self with a core identity."  I doubt I 
can access that unchanging man or core identity in myself, let along an 
author I only know through words in a fiction book.  I'm certainly not 
the same man I was when my first academic article was published 
(actually, it was the first paper I wrote after I finished my undergrad, 
with all the flaws of such a thing going to press unedited...).  A 
changing yet recognisable cloud of potentially contradictory traits and 
affiliations (always plural too) would seem far closer to Durrell's view 
as well.

But, if we aren't to trust what he says in an interview, then why should 
we trust what we read in his books?  I think your answer will be that 
you recognise that continuity, which I will certainly grant you and 
admit I do as well, but isn't that something that's 'reader imminent' 
rather than an authorial intention?

I suppose I want to have my cake, on a plate, and eat it too -- I want 
the author, the text, and the reader.  I get cranky when one's missing, 
just like when my plate's empty or the cake is in my hands.  Worst of 
all is having the cake on a plate without me there...

Best,
James

Michael Haag wrote:
> I am certainly not saying that Durrell remains unchanged.  He does 
> change; he has experiences, he reflects on them, he saddens, he grows, 
> etc; but he is still recognisably Durrell.  And what Durrell may say 
> about human character in an interview (or in a book) does not alter 
> that continuity that we read in his work.
> 
> :Michael

From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jul  7 22:57:55 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 06:57:55 +0100
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <4690764A.4010704@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2BE66A7B-2D18-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Well, let's say (whatever the funny hats he may wear) that the man 
comes through.  But it is his doing, not my invention.

:Michael



On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 06:29  am, James Gifford wrote:

> I think we're getting closer to articulating what we both really mean
> here, so it's been a useful (pragmatism again...) exercise.
>
> You say Durrell changes but is still recongisable in his travel books 
> (I
> won't say "non-fiction").  That's probably more useful for both of us
> than "always the same man" or "self with a core identity."  I doubt I
> can access that unchanging man or core identity in myself, let along an
> author I only know through words in a fiction book.  I'm certainly not
> the same man I was when my first academic article was published
> (actually, it was the first paper I wrote after I finished my 
> undergrad,
> with all the flaws of such a thing going to press unedited...).  A
> changing yet recognisable cloud of potentially contradictory traits and
> affiliations (always plural too) would seem far closer to Durrell's 
> view
> as well.
>
> But, if we aren't to trust what he says in an interview, then why 
> should
> we trust what we read in his books?  I think your answer will be that
> you recognise that continuity, which I will certainly grant you and
> admit I do as well, but isn't that something that's 'reader imminent'
> rather than an authorial intention?
>
> I suppose I want to have my cake, on a plate, and eat it too -- I want
> the author, the text, and the reader.  I get cranky when one's missing,
> just like when my plate's empty or the cake is in my hands.  Worst of
> all is having the cake on a plate without me there...
>
> Best,
> James
>
> Michael Haag wrote:
>> I am certainly not saying that Durrell remains unchanged.  He does
>> change; he has experiences, he reflects on them, he saddens, he grows,
>> etc; but he is still recognisably Durrell.  And what Durrell may say
>> about human character in an interview (or in a book) does not alter
>> that continuity that we read in his work.
>>
>> :Michael
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sun Jul  8 04:16:50 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 07:16:50 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Voices at the Tavern Door
Message-ID: <4690C7A2.7050103@wfu.edu>

O, poor old eccentric old me.  Am I really so myopic?  Has the circle of 
my enthusiasm shrunk so small these days?   Here I am, dragging us back 
to Durrell's pages and Durrell's words after all of yesterday's 
tail-chasing.  

[And yesterday showed us that some of us are expert tail-chasers (!), 
with years of practice.]

But I really would prefer practical demonstrations of strong readers 
reading strongly.  Give me their striking enjoyments and their 
provocative hunches, intuitions, theories, or freedom from theory.   Let 
us start afresh, shall we?

***

So we have this little book sitting before us, /Bitter Lemons/. 

Here is a specific sentence to consider, a sentence that I have been 
concentrating upon while making yet another summer trip, this time into 
the wilds of the Cumberland Plateau:

        The truth is that both the British and the Cypriot world offered
        one a gallery of humours which could only be fully enjoyed by
        one who, like myself, had a stake in neither.  ("Voices at the
        Tavern Door")

Readers, whatever your affiliation, affection, or affectation, go to 
work on that sentence. 

"/The truth is/."  "/A gallery of humours/."  "/Fully enjoyed/."  
Durrell the chronicler of impressions, who "/had a stake in neither/."

I suggest reading the sentence

        1) within the context of this chapter, "Voices at the Tavern
        Door," which finds Durrell sitting in one corner and Frangos
        holding forth in another.  This really is an interesting little
        drama.  And a very old one, I suspect.  Frangos plays a funny
        sort of Polyphemus to Durrell's Nemo/Odysseus.  Here I am
        emphasizing Durrell the trickster telling his lies about his
        lost hero-brother, dead with the Greeks at Thermopylae.  That is
        the Odyssean stratagem /par excellence/.  And note that we are
        venturing into and nearly badly trapped "in the innermost
        recesses of Clito's cave").  All of this is at once real and
        mythic.;

        2) within the context of the chapters read so far, with a
        consideration of the ways in which Lawrence Durrell the
        chronicler has tried to define and depict himself as "one who .
        . . had a stake in neither";

        3) within the context of biographical and historical fact.

To paraphrase the beleaguered Governor of Judea, "'/the truth is/' . . . 
what is the truth here"?   Is Durrell free from "a stake"--either in his 
book ( a re-telling) or in life (sack-cloth reality)? 

I like Michael's notes on Durrell's suburban meditations in /Bitter 
Lemons/.  Durrell's glances at Brixton &c. had already made me recall 
Miller's observations about the encroachment of Coca-Cola and the 
motor-car in /The Colossus of Maroussi/.

I like Jamie's calling us to attention, reminding us that narrators of 
novels and of memoirs are masks, assumed voices.  That realization is 
very old, I think.  Anyone asking Odysseus to rehearse his travels 
should understand it.

I also enjoyed the overturning of my expectations in this chapter.  
"Voices at the Tavern Door":  That mysterious heading puts us in mind of 
intrigue and danger, does it not?  And we do get to overhear "a series 
of shattering disconnected observations in a roaring bass voice of such 
power that one could feel the sympathetic vibrations from a set of 
copper cauldrons."   Durrell has just finished confessing his 
dissatisfaction with the wearying middle-class Cypriots.  He has just 
been longing to meet the "real" people, the people connected to their 
soil.  That desire summons up Frangos.

But then we get the voice of Clito's wife, the voice of his daughter, 
and the dread aspect of his mother-in-law "voiced" at the Tavern Door, 
and we know the human truth in this "gallery of humours."

These words.  These voices at the door.  Humour me.

/Kopiaste/.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sun Jul  8 06:25:15 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 06:25:15 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
Message-ID: <32730106.1183901116179.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Yes. I don't agree with the position that the reader creates the text or the person.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 7, 2007 10:57 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>
>Well, let's say (whatever the funny hats he may wear) that the man 
>comes through.  But it is his doing, not my invention.
>
>:Michael
>
>
>
>On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 06:29  am, James Gifford wrote:
>
>> I think we're getting closer to articulating what we both really mean
>> here, so it's been a useful (pragmatism again...) exercise.
>>
>> You say Durrell changes but is still recongisable in his travel books 
>> (I
>> won't say "non-fiction").  That's probably more useful for both of us
>> than "always the same man" or "self with a core identity."  I doubt I
>> can access that unchanging man or core identity in myself, let along an
>> author I only know through words in a fiction book.  I'm certainly not
>> the same man I was when my first academic article was published
>> (actually, it was the first paper I wrote after I finished my 
>> undergrad,
>> with all the flaws of such a thing going to press unedited...).  A
>> changing yet recognisable cloud of potentially contradictory traits and
>> affiliations (always plural too) would seem far closer to Durrell's 
>> view
>> as well.
>>
>> But, if we aren't to trust what he says in an interview, then why 
>> should
>> we trust what we read in his books?  I think your answer will be that
>> you recognise that continuity, which I will certainly grant you and
>> admit I do as well, but isn't that something that's 'reader imminent'
>> rather than an authorial intention?
>>
>> I suppose I want to have my cake, on a plate, and eat it too -- I want
>> the author, the text, and the reader.  I get cranky when one's missing,
>> just like when my plate's empty or the cake is in my hands.  Worst of
>> all is having the cake on a plate without me there...
>>
>> Best,
>> James
>>
>> Michael Haag wrote:
>>> I am certainly not saying that Durrell remains unchanged.  He does
>>> change; he has experiences, he reflects on them, he saddens, he grows,
>>> etc; but he is still recognisably Durrell.  And what Durrell may say
>>> about human character in an interview (or in a book) does not alter
>>> that continuity that we read in his work.
>>>
>>> :Michael



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sun Jul  8 06:58:17 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 06:58:17 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
Message-ID: <15959931.1183903097743.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

This idea of a fluid self goes back to Nietzsche and D. H. Lawrence (whom Durrell cites in Key, ch. 3) and possibly earlier to Montaigne and further back.  Lawrence talked about breaking away from notions of "the old stable ego" (letter to E. Garnett, 5 June 1914).  It's a nice topic of discussion.  Durrell liked this idea too, but I doubt if any of these people really knew what they were talking about.  I think people who have "unstable egos" are unstable, psychotic, or just plain weird.  Durrell had his moments of instability, but by and large he seems pretty stable to me.  He played around in his fiction with multiple identities, but writers like to do that and that doesn't make him unstable.  He always called himself Lawrence Durrell, a recognizable LD, except during those early moments when he wanted to be known as Charles Norden.  He never put on disguises and impersonate doctors, high court judges, field marshals, and airline pilots.  Some people actually do that, but LD didn't, as far as I know.  He remained a discreet and whole personality.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>Sent: Jul 7, 2007 10:02 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism

>Again, I have strong sympathies for these approaches, but for the former 
>in particular, I still can't accept it.  First, this notion of the 
>discrete personality that does not change and admits no internal 
>contradictions would seems to run entirely contrary to Durrell's 
>authorial intentions.  By your own admissions, that means you can't 
>accept it...
>
>Besides, the worldview of the Durrell who wrote _The Black Book_ and 
>wrote back against Herbert Read's expressions of Surrealism's political 
>agenda is sure not the same worldview of the Durrell who wrote _The 
>Revolt of Aphrodite_ or the _Avignon Quintet_.  Also, before we break 
>this down into "left" or "right" for these worldviews, let's just admit 
>that those are useless terms for anything specific.
>
>As for core identities, perhaps the author himself should speak (not 
>that any of us trust him, so we're just speculating about the author's 
>intentions, filling in the silences according to our own needs and 
>desires, as per the ending of _Justine_).  In the "Kneller Tape," 
>Durrell says:
>
>"Human character? A sort of rainbow I should say, which includes the 
>whole range of the spectrum. I imagine that what we call personality may 
>be an illusion, and in thinking of it as a stable thing we are trying to 
>put a lid on a box with no sides."
>



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sun Jul  8 07:01:44 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 07:01:44 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
Message-ID: <21727909.1183903305090.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Jamie, you're opened up a new field of study.  But I wouldn't call it the study of literature, as I know it.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>Sent: Jul 7, 2007 9:50 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>
>Bruce comments:
>
> > I disagree with this, absolutely disagree.  My reading
> > of literature is not to consider equally any possible
> > reading of a text.  I want to know what the author is
> > doing and intending, not to understand and give equal
> > weight to whatever may be occurring in the reader's mind.
>
>So, Beethoven's main theme from his 5th Symphony was taken up in WWII as 
>"V" for victory in morse code -- certainly this wasn't Beethoven's 
>intention, but you'd rather not consider such a thing as ever having 
>importance?  I know you'd find that interesting, which is why I don't 
>really believe you right now...  Did Shakespeare intend Sonnet 18 in the 
>'heteronormative' way most readers read it when we put it next to Sonnet 
>20?  With those two side by side, we might speculate about Shakespeare's 
>intentions and the truly remarkable (and exciting) prospect of teenage 
>love expressed using those words.  Many, many readers take up an 
>author's words and use them to self-express or self-describe -- that has 
>little to do with the author, but I still think it's fascinating to see 
>literature work in that manner, giving a reader a way of articulating 
>his or her inner life.
>
>Better still, and closer to Durrell, Henry Miller wrote _Tropic of 
>Cancer_, which was banned and went through some of the most important 
>legal trials for censorship in the 20th Century.  It's perfectly viable 
>to ask if we'd have the California pornography industry today if it 
>weren't for those trials (sigh) -- yet, that wasn't part of Miller's 
>intentions, so we should ignore it.  Right?
>
>Stravinsky's "The Rite of Spring" caused a riot in Paris, which also 
>wasn't his intention.  We should disregard that as well?  We have no 
>interest in the result of a work?
>
>So, for Durrell, _Bitter Lemons_ went on to win the Duff Cooper Memorial 
>Prize, which is pretty clearly political.  If that wasn't his intent, 
>should we again say that Durrell's intentions differ from the social and 
>cultural context of the book's reception, so we disregard the history of 
>the book?  That denies bibliography, and I thought we'd agreed you like 
>bibliography...
>
>I'd rather keep that field wide, wide open.  I'm not going to dismiss an 
>author's intentions (though I do understand why some people do), but I'm 
>also not going to say my assumptions about those intentions are the only 
>thing we have to talk about (and they will *always* be assumptions about 
>intentions, even with good evidence, or very likely projections in the 
>Freudian sense).
>
>Besides, no one suggested we should "consider equally any possible 
>reading of a text" -- to suggest such a project is what we're talking 
>about is simply a way of shutting down the debate.  Surely we should 
>give at least some merit to what readers actually do while reading a 
>book...  Surely we should discuss the merits of an idea rather than 
>dismissing it because we can loosely and vaguely associate it with an 
>ill-defined "ism" we arbitrarily despise...  I have human failings, but 
>I'd at least like to aspire to avoiding such things.
>
>Perhaps we'll just have to disagree about this one and get back to the 
>book.  I respect where you're coming from, Bruce, and I have sympathy 
>for your position.  However, I disagree with you about this being an 
>"either / or" problem -- I want "and," and I think that plurality comes 
>closer to the complex way that the world is.
>
>Best,
>James
>
>Bruce Redwine wrote:
>> No, I disagree with this, absolutely disagree.  My reading of literature is not to consider equally any possible reading of a text.  I want to know what the author is doing and intending, not to understand and give equal weight to whatever may be occurring in the reader's mind.
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Jul 7, 2007 7:02 PM
>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>>>
>>> Moreover, let's no forget that a book can have an effect independent of 
>>> the author's intentions.  Analyzing those impacts is a viable as 
>>> analyzing the author's intentions or contexts, though it certainly has 
>>> a motivation.  Choosing to exclude those same things is equally driven 
>>> by a motivation.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> James



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sun Jul  8 07:14:18 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 07:14:18 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] six O'Clock swill
Message-ID: <23084642.1183904058901.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Well, I guess my Australian friend was pulling my leg (slightly).  He led me to believe that the six o'clock swill was still going on in Australia.  Or maybe I misunderstood him.  He were having beers at the time, and I wasn't up to his speed.  Enjoy New Zealand.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: dtart at bigpond.net.au
>Sent: Jul 7, 2007 2:46 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca, Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [ilds] six O'Clock swill
>
>
>---- Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote: 
>> A special dispensation will have to be granted the Greens, who are under 50.  Otherwise, they qualify.  I shall consult my medium in touch with LD's spirit -- but no problems, I'm sure.  By the way, is the "six o'clock swill" still a phenomenon in Australia.  An Australian once described it to me, and I think he was serious -- but you never know with Australians.
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>
>The Six O'Clock swill WAS a phenomenon in Australia. It was an attempt by the WOWSERs (we only want social evils remedied) to curb the drinking habits of Australian Males (we could not come at total prohibition as you Americans tried). it failed spectacularly. The working classes drank so much beer between knock off time at 3.30pm and closing time at 6.00pm - the swill- that they came home (if they could walk at all) to their families in such an appalling condition that they were fit for nothing but a night in the dog house or the outdoor dunny (toilet). There was also a huge illegal trade in out of hours drinking (sound familiiar). The policy was abandoned, i think during the 1940s, but hours were still restricted to 10am to 10pm monday to saturday with total closure on Sunday.
>
>Now you can get pissed at all hours like in Europe and like in Europe there is now, interestingly, far less drunkeness. The desires of the WOWSERS were in fact achieved by extending drinking hours. If, like Durrell, you like 4 - 5 pints of wine a day, it is better to drink this over a whole day than in 2 or 3 hours.
>
>In Vino Veritas
>
>David (whitewine)
>Currently in New Zealand enjoying some fine vintages from the land of the Long White Cloud.



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sun Jul  8 07:20:37 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 07:20:37 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
Message-ID: <18330931.1183904437362.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I'm a dinosaur all right.  Michael is the mammalian order, I think.  Saber-toothed tiger?

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>Sent: Jul 7, 2007 9:35 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>
>I once heard a creationist say that dinosaur bones were planted by the 
>Devil -- that makes me think that palaeontologists must be a crazy 
>bunch. It's best to disregard what they say... (tongue in my cheek). 
>Isn't that form of reasoning precisely what Bruce and Michael are 
>offering us right now though? They find one thing problematic, so it's 
>therefore best to disregard everything that doesn't fit their view -- I 
>know both of them have minds with more queries than that, so let's avoid 
>those grand dismissive gestures. They credit neither the discussion nor 
>the author who pens them.
>
>-- case in point; when we take the responses to the Times to define our 
>notions of postmodernism, we may be confusing apples and oranges.
>
>Andrew M. Chisholm (his last name nicely coincides with a theorist in 
>the department I completed my PhD through...) defines postmodernism 
>using a similar slippage (a messy word if I ever heard one). For 
>instance, by using the quotation posted by Michael (provocatively 
>without his censure or tacit acceptance -- did you mean to erase the 
>author there Michael, which is still you through the traditionally 
>author-killing technique of pastiche and/or Burroughs-ish cutting?), we 
>find it "folds in on itself" (that's an allusion to some postmodern 
>stuff I don't buy into). Is my last sentence postmodern enough in it 
>syntactic convolutions?
>
>Mr Chisholm makes the seemingly reasonable comment:
>
>Postmodernists believe there is no knowledge or truth, only ?discourse?. 
>However, they also tend to hold that modish left-wing views are 
>absolutely true and that anyone who opposes these should be persecuted.
>
>We've moved from the universal to a tendency here: implicitly (all) 
>postmodernists believe X yet they *tend* to believe Y, which is 
>contradictory, so we should disregard X. In other words, I make a 
>universal claim and then reject it as utterly wrong because of a 
>tendency -- I'm not even saying his universal claim is right, but his 
>reasons seem awkward.
>
>Pamela then rebuts this in a classically pragmatist manner (a modernist 
>philosophical move, I might add...), which I'll admit I'm drawn to. I 
>like pragmatism in many respects. In other words, we should focus on 
>useful discussions as well as our uses for a text or a particular 
>reading. Just what postmodernism *is* matters little in comparison to 
>how it functions and is used by many critics.
>
>And besides, academic skepticism (the skeptical view that there is no 
>knowledge, which is itself a statement from a position of knowing) is 
>not a postmodern idea, so the "no knowledge" claim is off. The focus on 
>"discourse," however, is spot on for historicism. By moving away from 
>TRUTH to competing narratives or discourses, we open up many ways of 
>approaching historical documents, even those for which there are no 
>competing narratives (hence, they *must* be true, right? Irony again). 
>To leap from that to leftism (and which leftism, pray tell), is a jump 
>indeed. My hunch is that Mr. Chisholm isn't particularly fond of notions 
>of discourse but he's dead set against leftism (I wonder, would that 
>include libertarian anarchists, who I should think actually have a 
>tremendous amount in common with die hard capitalists, who would 
>typically be called modish right-wing values).
>
>That said, many "postmodern" authors are notoriously difficult to read 
>or to pin down to a single meaning. That's partly the point, partly the 
>problem of translations, and partly just plain poor writing. I typically 
>focus on the ideas and try to steer my classroom discussions away from 
>'definitional excursions' into the meaning of words like "modernism" or 
>"postmodernism," for which there are so many variant meanings and 
>interpretations for them to be almost useless apart from popular slang 
>to identify that thing we all know about but just can't describe... I'd 
>rather focus on the traits of the specific thing being discussed or the 
>specific meaning in a specific context rather than how I define it 
>within a poorly defined movement.
>
>But, what does this have to do with Durrell?
>
>Perhaps more than we think. In the opening of _Bitter Lemons_, he openly 
>directs our attention to his "characters" (do you call real people 
>that?) and his desire to write a book that doesn't focus on historical 
>TRUTHS but rather an "impressionistic" approach to multiple 
>perspectives. Does that mean he wants a blurry landscape or one that 
>only becomes intelligible as we allow ourselves to lose track of the 
>particulars. Doesn't this also remind us of the _Quartet_ in unexpected 
>ways? First the hermaphrodites, then multiple perspectives and a world 
>peopled only by characters...
>
>Well, that's sounds pretty close to postmodernism to me, at least in a 
>slang sense. It could also be described within some notions of 
>modernism, but perhaps it's best to split the difference and just say 
>some funny ideas were circulating by that point in the century, and 
>Durrell seemed to dig the flow on some level. After all, would you want 
>to call _Bitter Lemons_ "history" or "discourse"? I'd prefer the 
>tentativeness of the latter, 'cause I don't think I'd want to rely on an 
>impressionist painting and characters for a grand historical TRUTH.
>
>As for the "Underwear theory of History," isn't this precisely what 
>postmodernism typically attacks? By creating associations between 
>disparate things, we often reveal our own motivations more than any 
>underlying TRUTH. If we stop talking about truth so much as those other 
>factors, we might just get somewhere. After all, before we can even 
>consider the pragmatic value of a discussion of wishy-washy words like 
>"TRUE," I'd like to know better how we use them and talk about them. 
>What purposes, and whose, do those words (let alone the ideas) serve? 
>Think of the endings of _The Name of the Rose_ and _Foucault's Pendulum_ 
>by Eco with regard to false patterns. I've often wondered how much 
>Durrell's false pattern in his Quintet (overtly so, I think) influenced 
>Eco in the latter book.
>
>And then, Michael gives us Camille Paglia's comments (a female voice, 
>Michael, or are you ventriloquising? -- another postmodern thing to 
>discuss):
>
>"What happened was that the old bibliographical style of literary 
>scholarship had become totally enervated and dead, and then New 
>Criticism rose up in the Twenties, Thirties, Forties--and then it really 
>started dying in the Fifties--as a way to talk about the literary and 
>artistic qualities of a text. And then unfortunately that detached 
>itself entirely from any historical context, and you got a whole 
>generation of critics who came through who have absolutely no historical 
>sense whatever--they haven't been trained to think in historical terms."
>
>This is again slippery. Bibliography is loosing ground, and I lament 
>that. I feel the paucity of my own bibliographical training on many 
>occasions, despite my ongoing work in it. Yet, do we blame that on New 
>Criticism (which is also out of fashion just now)? The notion of close 
>reading does not lead to the death of the author, but rather it creates 
>elbow room for the reader. Also, I don't know why New Criticism without 
>History is the problem here -- it isn't a theory about anything, let 
>alone a theory of history or truth. It's a reading practice, and it 
>works wonders with poetry. It makes for a wonderfully enjoyable reading 
>experience for the reader and an enriched text as well. Think about how 
>many ways you could read the last 2 lines of Keats' "When I have fears" 
>or how long it takes him to reach that "then." Those are the practices 
>of New Criticism, and I think they enrich the text.
>
>That said, even New Criticism is not cohesive, with many saying it 
>anticipates the Death of the Author phenomenon (in line with T.S. 
>Eliot's "Tradition and the Individual Talent"), yet this is contradicted 
>overtly by William Empson, a founding father of New Criticism. His 
>*style* in _Seven Types of Ambiguity_ is meant to augment 
>author-oriented and bibliographic scholarship, not replace it.
>
>Perhaps we had best admit that our terminology for these movements is 
>generalized at best, so staying close to what is at hand may be more 
>productive. The pragmatist in me suggests it may be more useful. As per 
>Bill's comments, wouldn't it be interesting if we could explain what we 
>mean, how we mean it, and why we mean it for words like "truth," 
>"postmodern," "real," or "good."
>
>Best,
>Jamie



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sun Jul  8 07:43:10 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 07:43:10 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Romantic Suburbanism
Message-ID: <19423179.1183905790417.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I would call this Romantic Suburbanism, a direct descendant of Romantic Classicism, which flourished during Byron's and Keats's time.  Byron in Venice liked to dream about such things, going to Greece and making revolution, then he went to Missolonghi, got a fever, and died, like Daisy Miller when she went to Rome and died.  Keats also went to Rome and died, but that can't be blamed on the Romans.  Durrell's Romantic Suburbanism is quite benign, not at all fatal, and I quite like it.  I shall take another cruise around the Mediterranean and dream about it while on my deck chair.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 7, 2007 8:32 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>
>Baboons have bare arses and raise their hands to the sun in worship.  
>In this they encompass the sublime and the ridiculous, though we do not 
>yet know which end is which.
>
>However, I would like to introduce another subject: Suburbaboonism.  Or 
>rather reintroduce it, as I have mentioned this before, though less 
>mysteriously as suburbanism, and how Durrell starts off Bitter Lemons 
>with various remarks, not unsympathetic, about the suburbanising 
>tendencies of the British abroad, as in Cyprus, Malta, Gibraltar -- to 
>which I would add Durrell's own India, not to mention his experience of 
>growing up in South London.  I wonder whether Durrell is not a great 
>suburban writer, the Betjeman of the Med, the man who got to these 
>sunny places just before the rest of us, and whose achievement has been 
>to put these places into the suburbs of our imaginations.  Corfu, for 
>example.  Why go to Corfu?  Because it was so suburban, and with flying 
>boats coming in from England on the mail run.  Why go to Cyprus?  
>Suburban too, though Durrell adds the quite proper excuse of it being 
>within the sterling area.  But even so, and allowing for the fact that 
>northern Cyprus is the most beautiful part of the country, Kyrenia was 
>definitely the most suburban spot he could have chosen.  He even wanted 
>to open a bookshop to sell to his fellow suburbanites.  Durrell never 
>actually goes out into the wild and woolly.  In Greece, before he was 
>kicked out by the Germans, he avoided the hard bare islands of the 
>Cyclades (he was dragged there), and he hated the magnificent Mani 
>peninsula just down the coast from twee Kalamata.  Domestication is 
>primary.  Cyprus was a delicate balancing act between suburbanising 
>English people and suburbanising Cypriots.  Bitter Lemons is the story 
>of their suburban tragedy.
>
>:Michael
>
>
>On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 03:55  am, slighcl wrote:
>
>> I do not recall at all the specific origin of our subject header 
>> "baboonism."  What was that? 


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sun Jul  8 07:56:08 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 15:56:08 +0100
Subject: [ilds] suburbia and hotels and death
In-Reply-To: <4690C7A2.7050103@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <5BF04992-2D63-11DC-B699-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>


It is not me but Durrell who brings us back to suburbia, as in the line 
quoted by Charles below.  This gallery of humours is the Dome Hotel in 
Kyrenia, 'like every forgotten Victorian pension between Folkestone and 
Scarborough'.  This hotel motif appears throughout Durrell.  It is the 
cosmos within which The Black Book operates, that is the Regina Hotel, 
based on the Queens Hotel in which the Durrell family lived for a while 
in suburban South London.  In Panic Spring there is another hotel from 
which the hero sets out on his journey; that one is at Brindisi and is 
called the Hotel Superbo.  And of course there is the Cecil Hotel at 
Alexandria, where people stay and people pass and people see one 
another in mirrors; for all its seeming exoticism, the Cecil is 
described as 'moribund': 'I had first seen her, in the gaunt vestibule 
of the Cecil, in a mirror. In the vestibule of this moribund hotel the 
palms splinter and refract their motionless fronds in the gilt-edged 
mirrors' (p65).  The Dome Hotel is the location at which Durrell 
chooses to tell us that he has a stake in neither the English nor the 
Cypriot world.  But he has already used this device to show us that he 
has no stake, or is trying hard to have no stake, in this tomblike 
world -- of which in fact he was so much a part throughout his younger 
life, including his very British experience of India.  But when he 
steps outside that world, the Cypriots will try to kill him.  Bitter 
Lemons.

:Michael


On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 12:16  pm, slighcl wrote:
>
>
> Here is a specific sentence to consider, a sentence that I have been 
> concentrating upon while making yet another summer trip, this time 
> into the wilds of the Cumberland Plateau:
>
> The truth is that both the British and the Cypriot world offered one a 
> gallery of humours which could only be fully enjoyed by one who, like 
> myself, had a stake in neither.? ("Voices at the Tavern Door")
>
> Readers, whatever your affiliation, affection, or affectation, go to 
> work on that sentence.?
>
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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sun Jul  8 07:54:02 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 10:54:02 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <15959931.1183903097743.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <15959931.1183903097743.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4690FA8A.109@wfu.edu>

On 7/8/2007 9:58 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote:

>He never put on disguises and impersonate doctors, high court judges, field marshals, and airline pilots.  Some people actually do that, but!
>
Cf. Scobie's Dolly Varden.  But El Skob is not weird.  He just cannot 
realize how /inspired /his tendencies are.

Now that I sit here in Tennessee looking back at /Justine/, it seems 
that Darley & co. return to Scobie and Scobie's room when they are 
seeking quiet amid the flux. 

As queer as all of Scobie's little eccentricities are, his episodes are 
among the more stable and locatable in the novel.  

I think that I will wear my "Scobie blouse" today.   What will the 
Volunteer State think?

C&c.

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From sumantranag at gmail.com  Sat Jul  7 23:55:39 2007
From: sumantranag at gmail.com (Sumantra Nag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 12:25:39 +0530
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 11
References: <mailman.1.1183834802.1757418.ilds@lists.uvic.ca>
Message-ID: <007301c7c12d$01206da0$0201a8c0@intel>

 Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 20:18:25 +0100
> From: "Richard Pine" <richardpin at eircom.net>

SUMANTRA NAG, stop sending messages that are 29 pages long!!!!!!!!!
------------
Sorry - again!! I am taking the Digest and omitted to erase the rest of the 
text. As you can see, I have taken the precaution this time.

Sumantra
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SOn 06/07/07, william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu> wrote:
>> "Death and the Counterlife of Heresy in Wyndham Lewis and Lawrence 
>> Durrell."
>> Deus Loci: The Lawrence Durrell Quarterly 4.1 (1980): 3-16

>> Does this help?

>> Bill
>> At 01:35 PM 7/6/2007, you wrote:

I too would be very interested in the Wyndham Lewis connection--and does
>> anyone know if Lewis ever traveled to Egypt?
--------
I had posted a query earlier about the character of Pursewarden in the AQ 
being based on Wyndham Lewis. Any comments?

Sumantra



From richardpin at eircom.net  Sun Jul  8 01:49:53 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 09:49:53 +0100
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
References: <20070707160258.GBWP3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><BAY108-F12666A3DAF5B0014A3ACB3B0000@phx.gbl>
	<20070707213154.LKKG7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <011301c7c13c$f847c4c0$84471359@rpinelaptop>

Bill's question - 'why not start with a basic theory, : this passage probably means something, what is it?' - hits the mark. But it's not a theory, Bill, it's the application of the reader's common sense and the context in which s/he has lived and is reading. If you can't read a particular book, half the time it's because the author's context and yours are incompatible (Wordsworth in the Tropics?). If you read a book through a (possibly) distorting lens of a particular theory, your teacher has no doubt done you a grave disservice and possibly blighted your reading life. RP
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: william godshalk 
  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 10:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism


  Pamela writes:


    Others of us want students to know that literature does mean something--that it came out of a particular context and makes certain points, undermines certain metanarratives, subverts this cultural assumption, bolsters that ideology.  

  Do you really think that George Bush -- either one -- feels threatened by literary theory and/or literary theorists? My classes seem to be confirmed in their "metanarratives" when I confront them with Darwin, Freud, Marx, Doctorow, Pynchon, Gould, Cabell, Krutch, Becker. Or even Shakespeare, god bless the mark! 

  And doesn't theory generate what meaning a student gets out of reading a passage? Theory provides a lens, surely, but one might also say that it distorts the student's reading. Why not start with a basic theory? I.e. this passage probably means something; what is it? As Norman Holland has argued cogently, each student brings his or her own personal theory to the reading of literature. Why not nurture their theories, use them to get at the multiplicity of possibility? The teacher's job, as defined by Plato, is to ask questions, not to produce reading machines for the pigs. 

  And what about John Masters? 

  Bill 

  ***************************************
  W. L. Godshalk           *
  Department of English         *
  University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
  Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
  513-281-5927
  *************************************** 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From richardpin at eircom.net  Sun Jul  8 01:52:00 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 09:52:00 +0100
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
References: <3F30C63A-2CD5-11DC-8121-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <013201c7c13d$41f32c90$84471359@rpinelaptop>

Yes, and sometimes it's explicit: the preface to Memmi's 'The Coloniser and 
the Colonised': 'I was Tunisian and THEREFORE colonised' - my caps. RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Haag" <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism


> No, Bill, you do not understand.  Postcolonial theory is about
> colonialism and what follows.  So they tell me.  How can you read a
> book without knowing whether the writer is oppressed?  But it is such a
> big field.  If reading Durrell, for example, one would want to know
> about post-Ottoman colonial theory, and also post-Byzantine colonial
> theory, and that is just for reading Bitter Lemons.  Post-Arab colonial
> theory would not go amiss for catching the wider frame of reference.
> These are after all the great imperiums that have shaped and continue
> to shape the Middle East and the Mediterranean to this day -- culture,
> language, thought, religion, even landscape.  So I would like to know
> from Pamela which of these relevant postcolonialisms she deals with
> when turning out her product.
>
> :Michael
>
>
>
> On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 10:42  pm, william godshalk wrote:
>
>> Michael,
>>
>> A literary theory is about literature, not about Turks and Arabs.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> At 05:37 PM 7/7/2007, you wrote:
>>> Which particular colonialism are you post?  Ottoman?  Arab?  or
>>> something else?
>>>
>>> :Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 06:43  pm, Pamela Francis wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, Virginia, literary texts ARE still read in universities...and I
>>>> feel a real return of the close reading, at least in some areas.  And
>>>> one still has to have an "area" or "period" in which the academic is
>>>> well-read; I, for instance, am a "modernist"--however, I read
>>>> modernist texts using what Bill has called the "necessary category"
>>>> of
>>>> postcolonial theory.  This means i use that category to help get at
>>>> the text, but it still requires careful close reading of the primary
>>>> text.  Some academics, however, make "theory" their "area" and their
>>>> "period".  I don't know about other universities, but the English
>>>> dept
>>>> (graduate level) at Rice is very primary-text oriented, but even
>>>> undergraduates are expected to be familiar with the variety of
>>>> theoretical categories--or lenses--to aid their reading of the text.
>>>> I find it very constructive--close reading alone, without any sort of
>>>> structure, too often winds up being "what this novel means to me"--in
>>>> short, it does nothing.  Some people, of course, don't want their
>>>> reading to "do anything" and that's fine.  But in order to compete
>>>> with other departments, such as the sciences or business, which
>>>> produce a "product", we have to be able to say we're doing something.
>>>> This is a big bone of contention in English departments
>>>> everywhere--Stanley Fish, for instance, thinks we're just kidding
>>>> ourselves and should just admit that the study of literature has no
>>>> use-value, and sit around on our elitist butts and read books just
>>>> for
>>>> the fun of it.  Which, of course, he is doing, at a six-figure salary
>>>> that could pay for two or three positions for instructors who
>>>> actually
>>>> teach classes.  Others of us want students to know that literature
>>>> does mean something--that it came out of a particular context and
>>>> makes certain points, undermines certain metanarratives, subverts
>>>> this
>>>> cultural assumption, bolsters that ideology.  But that New Criticism
>>>> slouching toward the MLA never really went away; it's just been
>>>> exploited by categories with sexier names.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>>>>> Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>>>>> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:02:47 -0400
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce asks some questions:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm curious -- are primary
>>>>> texts still taught in the universities these days?  Or are they on
>>>>> the supplemental, not-required reading list?  Not a silly
>>>>> question.  Read the big academic journals these days and you note
>>>>> that primary texts are simply used to support whims and theories.
>>>>> Presumably, writing those kinds of articles will advance your
>>>>> academic
>>>>> career.  You never have to touch ground.  Didn't Swift write
>>>>> about such airheads living in the sky?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, some of us teach literary texts, e.g. Shakespeare, Milton,
>>>>> Woolf. I leave philosophy (i.e. theory) to the philosophers who have
>>>>> their bastion down the hall from English.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, in your description of the pretentious world of the MLA, I
>>>>> think
>>>>> you
>>>>> may be correct -- for the moment. Theory seems to be more prominent
>>>>> than
>>>>> literature, postcolonial theory more prominent than, say, Haggard's
>>>>> She or John Masters's wonderful Indian novels.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But the text will return -- the return of the repressed! The New
>>>>> Critics
>>>>> took us back to the text. Some where a New New Criticism is
>>>>> slouching
>>>>> toward MLA Headquarters.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gulliver's Travels, Part 3.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ***************************************
>>>>> W. L.
>>>>> Godshalk
>>>>>         *
>>>>> Department of
>>>>> English         *
>>>>> University of
>>>>> Cincinnati
>>>>> Stellar disorder  *
>>>>> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>>>>> 513-281-5927
>>>>> ***************************************
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> ILDS mailing list
>>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ILDS mailing list
>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>> ***************************************
>> W. L. Godshalk *
>> Department of English         *
>> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
>> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>> 513-281-5927
>> ***************************************
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Sun Jul  8 05:24:55 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:24:55 +0200
Subject: [ilds] post-Ottoman theory
In-Reply-To: <7ADC1862-2CF1-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <7ADC1862-2CF1-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <4690D797.6090605@interdesign.fr>

If you read this text:

http://www.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lecture6.html

You will see that Corfu was indeed under Ottoman 
influence!

Marc

Michael Haag wrote:

> I do not know whether postcolonial theory as taught in American 
> universities keeps the cleaning ladies off the streets, but some 
> historical knowledge of the Ottoman Empire, whose western extremity was 
> Serbia and whose eastern extremity was Iraq, goes a long way towards 
> understanding why those two places continue to be serious problems in 
> our day. Durrell of course lived in Belgrade, also in Cyprus, another 
> very recent object of Ottoman imperialism, and before that in Egypt, 
> which likewise had been (technically until 1914) part of the Ottoman 
> Empire. In fact from 1935 when he went to Greece until 1956 when he went 
> to France, the only places he lived that had not been part of the 
> Ottoman Empire were Corfu and Argentina.
> 
> :Michael
> 
> 
> On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 01:46 am, william godshalk wrote:
> 
>     Perhaps theory is a way of keeping us from close analysis of what is
>     actually happening. Is theory a way of intellectualizing the fact
>     that Iraq is a killing ground, a slaughter house? Theory is a way of
>     keeping a segment of the society off the streets and away from
>     revolution.
> 
>     Bill
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From richardpin at eircom.net  Sun Jul  8 08:45:16 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 16:45:16 +0100
Subject: [ilds] post-Ottoman theory
References: <7ADC1862-2CF1-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<4690D797.6090605@interdesign.fr>
Message-ID: <035501c7c176$fda06f00$84471359@rpinelaptop>

Marc, I've glanced at this article, and as far as I can see it doesnt 
mention Corfu as being under Ottoman influence. If it does, then the author 
is completely wrong.
The whole point about the Ionian islands is that culturally they were quite 
disticnt from most of mainland and Aegean 'Greece', which ceased to exist 
politically from 1453 until 1830-32. Corfu, like the other Ionian islands, 
was under Ventian rule for 400 years until 1797 when Napoleon took Venice. 
The 'United States of the Ionian Islands', also known as the Heptanese or 
Septinsular Republic, existed under (mainly) British 'protection' (1815-64), 
thus pre-existing the modern state of Greece.
Hence the continuing sense of Corfiot superiority to Greece: everywhere 
else, Turkish culture and society permeated Greek ways of life. In the 
Ionian islands the Italian culture and language permeated society. The first 
'Greek' artists - composers, poets, playwrights - were educated at the 
universities of Padua and Genoa and so were the aristocrats and 
intellectuals, so that when the call for Greek independence from Turkish 
rule came in 1820, it was the Ionian islands which were able to supply the 
key players, including the Corfiot John Capodistrias who had been the Tsar's 
foreign minister and who became (for a short time, before his assassination) 
the first President of modern Greece.
The major event in modern times was the successful repulsion by the 
Venetians and Corfiots of the Turkish naval siege of Corfu in 1716, under 
the leadership of Austrian general Schulenberg, who then built the massive 
fortifications on the land side of Corfu town (which was an Italianate city 
when Athens was still a village) to ensure that the Turks couldnt invade on 
the west coast and march inland to the backside of Corfu. Some of those 
walls are still to be seen today, as of course are the original medieval 
fortress and the 'New Fortress' dating from the 16th century.
So where does Mr Soward detect 'Ottoman influence' where THERE WAS NONE 
WHATSOEVER?
Regards
RP
--- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marc Piel" <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] post-Ottoman theory


> If you read this text:
>
> http://www.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lecture6.html
>
> You will see that Corfu was indeed under Ottoman
> influence!
>
> Marc
>
> Michael Haag wrote:
>
>> I do not know whether postcolonial theory as taught in American
>> universities keeps the cleaning ladies off the streets, but some
>> historical knowledge of the Ottoman Empire, whose western extremity was
>> Serbia and whose eastern extremity was Iraq, goes a long way towards
>> understanding why those two places continue to be serious problems in
>> our day. Durrell of course lived in Belgrade, also in Cyprus, another
>> very recent object of Ottoman imperialism, and before that in Egypt,
>> which likewise had been (technically until 1914) part of the Ottoman
>> Empire. In fact from 1935 when he went to Greece until 1956 when he went
>> to France, the only places he lived that had not been part of the
>> Ottoman Empire were Corfu and Argentina.
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 01:46 am, william godshalk wrote:
>>
>>     Perhaps theory is a way of keeping us from close analysis of what is
>>     actually happening. Is theory a way of intellectualizing the fact
>>     that Iraq is a killing ground, a slaughter house? Theory is a way of
>>     keeping a segment of the society off the streets and away from
>>     revolution.
>>
>>     Bill
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> 


From vcel at ix.netcom.com  Sun Jul  8 10:06:38 2007
From: vcel at ix.netcom.com (Vittorio Celentano)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 13:06:38 -0400
Subject: [ilds] post-Ottoman theory
References: <7ADC1862-2CF1-11DC-9D57-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
	<4690D797.6090605@interdesign.fr>
Message-ID: <000701c7c182$5b8a7ba0$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>

Marc,

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish-Venetian_War_(1714-1718)

"After their success in the Morea, the Ottomans moved against the
venetian-held Ionian Islands. They occupied the island of Lefkada (Santa
Maura), which the Venetians had taken in 1684, and the fort of Bouthroton
(Butrinto) opposite the city of Corfu. On 8 July 1716, an Ottoman army of
33,000 men landed on Corfu, the most important of the Ionian islands. The
defence was led by Count Johann Matthias von der Schulenburg, who had
roughly 8,000 men at his command. Despite a Venetian naval victory on July
8, the Ottoman land army advanced to the city of Corfu, and on July, 19
after capturing the outlying forts of Mantouki, Garitsa, Avrami and of the
Saviour, the siege began. The extensive fortifications and the determination
of the defenders withstood several assaults, until finally the Ottomans
withdrew on 20 August."

Vittorio
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marc Piel" <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: [ilds] post-Ottoman theory


> If you read this text:
>
> http://www.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lecture6.html
>
> You will see that Corfu was indeed under Ottoman
> influence!
>
> Marc
>
> Michael Haag wrote:
>
> > I do not know whether postcolonial theory as taught in American
> > universities keeps the cleaning ladies off the streets, but some
> > historical knowledge of the Ottoman Empire, whose western extremity was
> > Serbia and whose eastern extremity was Iraq, goes a long way towards
> > understanding why those two places continue to be serious problems in
> > our day. Durrell of course lived in Belgrade, also in Cyprus, another
> > very recent object of Ottoman imperialism, and before that in Egypt,
> > which likewise had been (technically until 1914) part of the Ottoman
> > Empire. In fact from 1935 when he went to Greece until 1956 when he went
> > to France, the only places he lived that had not been part of the
> > Ottoman Empire were Corfu and Argentina.
> >
> > :Michael
> >
> >
> > On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 01:46 am, william godshalk wrote:
> >
> >     Perhaps theory is a way of keeping us from close analysis of what is
> >     actually happening. Is theory a way of intellectualizing the fact
> >     that Iraq is a killing ground, a slaughter house? Theory is a way of
> >     keeping a segment of the society off the streets and away from
> >     revolution.
> >
> >     Bill
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ILDS mailing list
> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jul  8 10:38:25 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 13:38:25 -0400
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F8A3357231CBB02E809511B0070@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-F8A3357231CBB02E809511B0070@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070708173824.NMWE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sun Jul  8 10:47:43 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 18:47:43 +0100
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <013201c7c13d$41f32c90$84471359@rpinelaptop>
Message-ID: <5470BBB4-2D7B-11DC-B38C-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

I wonder who the Tunisian was colonised by?  The Arabs, I suppose he 
means.

:Michael



On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 09:52  am, Richard Pine wrote:

> Yes, and sometimes it's explicit: the preface to Memmi's 'The 
> Coloniser and
> the Colonised': 'I was Tunisian and THEREFORE colonised' - my caps. RP
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Haag" <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 10:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>
>
>> No, Bill, you do not understand.  Postcolonial theory is about
>> colonialism and what follows.  So they tell me.  How can you read a
>> book without knowing whether the writer is oppressed?  But it is such 
>> a
>> big field.  If reading Durrell, for example, one would want to know
>> about post-Ottoman colonial theory, and also post-Byzantine colonial
>> theory, and that is just for reading Bitter Lemons.  Post-Arab 
>> colonial
>> theory would not go amiss for catching the wider frame of reference.
>> These are after all the great imperiums that have shaped and continue
>> to shape the Middle East and the Mediterranean to this day -- culture,
>> language, thought, religion, even landscape.  So I would like to know
>> from Pamela which of these relevant postcolonialisms she deals with
>> when turning out her product.
>>
>> :Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 10:42  pm, william godshalk wrote:
>>
>>> Michael,
>>>
>>> A literary theory is about literature, not about Turks and Arabs.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> At 05:37 PM 7/7/2007, you wrote:
>>>> Which particular colonialism are you post?  Ottoman?  Arab?  or
>>>> something else?
>>>>
>>>> :Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 06:43  pm, Pamela Francis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, Virginia, literary texts ARE still read in universities...and 
>>>>> I
>>>>> feel a real return of the close reading, at least in some areas.  
>>>>> And
>>>>> one still has to have an "area" or "period" in which the academic 
>>>>> is
>>>>> well-read; I, for instance, am a "modernist"--however, I read
>>>>> modernist texts using what Bill has called the "necessary category"
>>>>> of
>>>>> postcolonial theory.  This means i use that category to help get at
>>>>> the text, but it still requires careful close reading of the 
>>>>> primary
>>>>> text.  Some academics, however, make "theory" their "area" and 
>>>>> their
>>>>> "period".  I don't know about other universities, but the English
>>>>> dept
>>>>> (graduate level) at Rice is very primary-text oriented, but even
>>>>> undergraduates are expected to be familiar with the variety of
>>>>> theoretical categories--or lenses--to aid their reading of the 
>>>>> text.
>>>>> I find it very constructive--close reading alone, without any sort 
>>>>> of
>>>>> structure, too often winds up being "what this novel means to 
>>>>> me"--in
>>>>> short, it does nothing.  Some people, of course, don't want their
>>>>> reading to "do anything" and that's fine.  But in order to compete
>>>>> with other departments, such as the sciences or business, which
>>>>> produce a "product", we have to be able to say we're doing 
>>>>> something.
>>>>> This is a big bone of contention in English departments
>>>>> everywhere--Stanley Fish, for instance, thinks we're just kidding
>>>>> ourselves and should just admit that the study of literature has no
>>>>> use-value, and sit around on our elitist butts and read books just
>>>>> for
>>>>> the fun of it.  Which, of course, he is doing, at a six-figure 
>>>>> salary
>>>>> that could pay for two or three positions for instructors who
>>>>> actually
>>>>> teach classes.  Others of us want students to know that literature
>>>>> does mean something--that it came out of a particular context and
>>>>> makes certain points, undermines certain metanarratives, subverts
>>>>> this
>>>>> cultural assumption, bolsters that ideology.  But that New 
>>>>> Criticism
>>>>> slouching toward the MLA never really went away; it's just been
>>>>> exploited by categories with sexier names.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>>>>>> Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>>> To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] baboonism
>>>>>> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:02:47 -0400
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce asks some questions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm curious -- are primary
>>>>>> texts still taught in the universities these days?  Or are they on
>>>>>> the supplemental, not-required reading list?  Not a silly
>>>>>> question.  Read the big academic journals these days and you note
>>>>>> that primary texts are simply used to support whims and theories.
>>>>>> Presumably, writing those kinds of articles will advance your
>>>>>> academic
>>>>>> career.  You never have to touch ground.  Didn't Swift write
>>>>>> about such airheads living in the sky?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, some of us teach literary texts, e.g. Shakespeare, Milton,
>>>>>> Woolf. I leave philosophy (i.e. theory) to the philosophers who 
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> their bastion down the hall from English.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, in your description of the pretentious world of the MLA, I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> may be correct -- for the moment. Theory seems to be more 
>>>>>> prominent
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> literature, postcolonial theory more prominent than, say, 
>>>>>> Haggard's
>>>>>> She or John Masters's wonderful Indian novels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the text will return -- the return of the repressed! The New
>>>>>> Critics
>>>>>> took us back to the text. Some where a New New Criticism is
>>>>>> slouching
>>>>>> toward MLA Headquarters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gulliver's Travels, Part 3.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ***************************************
>>>>>> W. L.
>>>>>> Godshalk
>>>>>>         *
>>>>>> Department of
>>>>>> English         *
>>>>>> University of
>>>>>> Cincinnati
>>>>>> Stellar disorder  *
>>>>>> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>>>>>> 513-281-5927
>>>>>> ***************************************
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> ILDS mailing list
>>>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> ILDS mailing list
>>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ILDS mailing list
>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>> ***************************************
>>> W. L. Godshalk *
>>> Department of English         *
>>> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
>>> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>>> 513-281-5927
>>> ***************************************
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ILDS mailing list
>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jul  8 10:46:27 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 13:46:27 -0400
Subject: [ilds] baboonism
In-Reply-To: <31209850.1183867266519.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.
	earthlink.net>
References: <31209850.1183867266519.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070708174626.QAPR15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sun Jul  8 10:53:18 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 18:53:18 +0100
Subject: [ilds] post-Ottoman theory
In-Reply-To: <4690D797.6090605@interdesign.fr>
Message-ID: <1C5C0A28-2D7C-11DC-B38C-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

The Ottomans briefly held the Ionian islands from 1479 with the 
exception of Paxos and Corfu which they never occupied.

:Michael


On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 01:24  pm, Marc Piel wrote:

> If you read this text:
>
> http://www.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lecture6.html
>
> You will see that Corfu was indeed under Ottoman
> influence!
>
> Marc
>
>


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sun Jul  8 11:23:36 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:23:36 -0400
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <20070708173824.NMWE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <BAY108-F8A3357231CBB02E809511B0070@phx.gbl>
	<20070708173824.NMWE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <46912BA8.2040308@wfu.edu>

On 7/8/2007 1:38 PM, william godshalk wrote:

>> *I will defend my own position, however,my own approach to 
>> literature, as my way of making sense of the world, which I think is 
>> why many of us read at all. I will also defend the intellectual 
>> abilities of fellow "postcolonial" (quotes aqain!) scholars. ---Pamela*
>
>
> I read because the world makes no sense at all, but I don't expect 
> literature to give it any sense -- for me.

Yes, I think that there is the sticking point.  Literature perhaps 
(perhaps) does not offer us anything but the enjoyment of a 
highly-particularized form of attention.  Whatever else follows, to 
claim that it "makes the world sensible" or "makes the world better," 
that is something else.  

Following Swinburne's lead, I would be most surprised at a great work 
coming from any poet or novelist who set out save the world with his or 
her work.    Certainly Durrell would balk at any suggestion that he had 
done so, and that is why Eagleton is so pronounced in his suspicions of 
Durrell.  Durrell's allegiances are to an aesthetic--to his art and to 
his imagination--and not to the "uses of literature." 

(Let me not sound naive.  His foremost allegiance was to making a 
living.  Our writer was not ever someone working under the ideals of a 
"starving poet."  His romanticism is not like that.  He practiced a very 
particular kind of "exile," but perhaps in the end it was all more of 
the sort of "suburban ideal" that we have been discussing in regards to 
/Bitter Lemons/.)

Now let us be specific:  Milton was Great first because his mastery of 
poetic form could realize his amazing vision.  His religion and his 
politics come second, whether he "intended" them to do so or not.  Same 
for Shelley.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From richardpin at eircom.net  Sun Jul  8 11:16:01 2007
From: richardpin at eircom.net (Richard Pine)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 19:16:01 +0100
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
References: <BAY108-F8A3357231CBB02E809511B0070@phx.gbl>
	<20070708173824.NMWE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <03ad01c7c18c$0c5e5740$84471359@rpinelaptop>

NO NO NO! We do NOT have to have theories. Theories are like religions - they are for the weak-minded. You form a viewpoint using your own native intelligence. You do not accept anything from anyone unless it agrees with your own independently worked-out ideas. Bill, why do you read 'because the world makes no sense'? If you dont expect the books to give you any sense, then the 2 parts of your remark are non-sequiturs. We dont read for any reason other than curiosity. The victims of theory read because they have already adopted a 'sense' which they apply to what they read. They are not curious, they are already riddled with other people's opinions/theories/viewpoints and unable to formulate opinions of their own. RP
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: william godshalk 
  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 6:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [ilds] conspiracy


    I will defend my own position, however,my own approach to literature, as my way of making sense of the world, which I think is why many of us read at all. I will also defend the intellectual abilities of fellow "postcolonial" (quotes aqain!) scholars. ---Pamela

  I read because the world makes no sense at all, but I don't expect literature to give it any sense -- for me.

  As for theory, we all have our theories -- we have to have theories, as Norman Holland points out. But I have personal experience of theories controlling readings. A rigid theory limits the questions that are asked -- and thus answered. Ronald Crane many years ago said the best criticism is the one that asks the most questions. 

  Bill 

  ***************************************
  W. L. Godshalk           *
  Department of English         *
  University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
  Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
  513-281-5927
  *************************************** 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  ILDS mailing list
  ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
  https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From albigensian at hotmail.com  Sun Jul  8 11:44:45 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 13:44:45 -0500
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <20070708173824.NMWE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY108-F39CC36EECB2DC101718986B0070@phx.gbl>

Bill says:
As for theory, we all have our theories -- we have to have theories, as 
Norman Holland points out. But I have personal experience of theories 
controlling readings. A rigid theory limits the questions that are asked -- 
and thus answered. Ronald Crane many years ago said the best criticism is 
the one that asks the most questions.

My point exactly--any theoretical approach asks certain kinds of 
questions--a limitation that bothers you and Michael.  However, it is just 
one set of questions, and it's the set i like to ask of a text.  That 
doesn't mean i am limited to that set of questions.  As Jamie has said in 
his replies, circumstances of a text's reception, the publishing history, 
etc. and so forth, all add to the layers of a text.  Some people choose to 
focus their reading on one layer of the text--and i certainly demonstrate 
some particular reading strategies to my students.  But then, the next lit 
class they take will introduce them to other reading strategies.  The 
perception of the critic as a high priest is due to the ridiculous status 
and salaries accorded to some academics who really want to be "public 
intellectuals", whateve that may mean.  But those in the trenches do not 
require their students to sign oaths of dedication to postcolonial, 
deconstructive, historicist, phenomenological, etc. reading strategies.

But Charles is right. We should be discussing LD's works.  But just one more 
non-LD comment: i think my comment on my contributions to the Maryknoll 
Sisters was lost on Michael and probably most readers--the Maryknoll Sisters 
are associated with "liberation theology" in Latin America, and were 
considered a thorn in the side of JPII's early anti-communist/socialist 
stances (later much softened).  The CIA has also been extremely vexed by 
their presence.  Two of the four churchwomen killed by the El Salvador 
military in 1980 were Maryknoll sisters.  The order also runs Orbis Books, a 
publishing house focusing on social justice in the Christian tradition.

So, back to LD...


>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] conspiracy
>Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 13:38:25 -0400
>
>
>
>I will defend my own
>position, however,my own approach to literature, as my way of making
>sense of the world, which I think is why many of us read at all. I will
>also defend the intellectual abilities of fellow "postcolonial"
>(quotes aqain!) scholars. ---Pamela
>
>I read because the world makes no sense at all, but I don't expect
>literature to give it any sense -- for me.
>
>
>As for theory, we all have our theories -- we have to have theories, as
>Norman Holland points out. But I have personal experience of theories
>controlling readings. A rigid theory limits the questions that are asked
>-- and thus answered. Ronald Crane many years ago said the best criticism
>is the one that asks the most questions.
>
>
>Bill
>
>
>***************************************
>W. L.
>Godshalk??
>????????*
>Department of
>English???????? *
>University of
>Cincinnati???????????
>Stellar disorder? *
>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069????? *
>513-281-5927
>***************************************
>
>


>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From albigensian at hotmail.com  Sun Jul  8 11:50:05 2007
From: albigensian at hotmail.com (Pamela Francis)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 13:50:05 -0500
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <46912BA8.2040308@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY108-F33AD300819610FDAE328FEB0070@phx.gbl>

Charles says:
Following Swinburne's lead, I would be most surprised at a great
>work coming from any poet or novelist who set out save the world with his 
>or her work.

"Making sense of the world" is not "saving" the world and i never said it 
was.  I know that literature will never save us from George W. Bush or 
Ossama Bin Laden or Paris Hilton.  But I read to help me make sense of MY 
world, and I will stand by my claim that many others read for the same 
reason.  Pamela



From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sun Jul  8 12:11:24 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 20:11:24 +0100
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F39CC36EECB2DC101718986B0070@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <050AE212-2D87-11DC-A4C1-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Just as I suspected!

:Michael

On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 07:44  pm, Pamela Francis wrote:

> the Maryknoll Sisters are associated with "liberation theology"


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sun Jul  8 13:14:34 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 13:14:34 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
Message-ID: <22759013.1183925674435.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jul  8 13:17:18 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:17:18 -0400
Subject: [ilds] for the reading list
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F33AD300819610FDAE328FEB0070@phx.gbl>
References: <46912BA8.2040308@wfu.edu>
	<BAY108-F33AD300819610FDAE328FEB0070@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070708201718.NWZY7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sun Jul  8 13:21:20 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 13:21:20 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
Message-ID: <18734344.1183926080336.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jul  8 13:25:40 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:25:40 -0400
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <22759013.1183925674435.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa
	.earthlink.net>
References: <22759013.1183925674435.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070708202539.QKVO15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jul  8 13:36:36 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:36:36 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Durrell didn't go there
In-Reply-To: <29023236.1183868392757.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.
	earthlink.net>
References: <29023236.1183868392757.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070708203646.NYGH7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

At 12:19 AM 7/8/2007, you wrote:
>Bill, don't exaggerate.  Nine positions will do, and Bond used a 9mm 
>Beretta.  Anything more is overkill, in both contexts.

My .9 is a Sig.
***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sun Jul  8 13:47:16 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 13:47:16 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
Message-ID: <4621814.1183927636500.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Bill, are you teaching literature or are you teaching the psychodynamics of reading?  I think you teach literature.  If you give an exam on Bitter Lemons and ask for Durrell's views on British colonialism and then I come back and feed you a couple of blue books about my vacation on the island with my last girlfriend and how we partied with the British ex-pats in their suburban enclaves and how we all got drunk and went looking for Durrell's house in Bellapaix, using BL as a guidebook -- if that was the sole content of my essay, what would you do?  By the standards you've just advocated, I clearly deserve an A or A+.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jul 8, 2007 1:25 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] conspiracy
>
>R. S. Crane, an Aristotleanof the Chicago School, applied his questions to literature, the textitself.  He was a formalists,  like his colleagues Wayne Boothand  Sheldon Sacks, and they all took Aristotle's Poetics as amodel, which is interested in the effect of the text on the reader andnot the other way around.  Ralph Rader, another student of thatschool, also looked at biography, but not much beyond that.
>
>Bruce writes.
>Yes, all English majors back in those wonderful days were told to effacethe reader. The critical reader should come to the text with no ideas, nopreconceptions about anything. After fifty years of teaching, I assertthat this is impossible among the living. Each one of us has a uniqueposition in the universe. Even with the best good will, and the strongestwine, one cannot wash one's brain clean of prior experience. 
>
>Show me a text that reads itself, and I will make you a wealth person.
>
>Bill



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jul  8 14:00:21 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 17:00:21 -0400
Subject: [ilds] theories and histories
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F39CC36EECB2DC101718986B0070@phx.gbl>
References: <20070708173824.NMWE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<BAY108-F39CC36EECB2DC101718986B0070@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070708210041.QNES15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jul  8 14:08:44 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 17:08:44 -0400
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <4621814.1183927636500.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.
	earthlink.net>
References: <4621814.1183927636500.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070708210844.KAIS3027.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sun Jul  8 14:16:44 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 22:16:44 +0100
Subject: [ilds] theories and histories
In-Reply-To: <20070708210041.QNES15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <879181BB-2D98-11DC-95F7-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Try post-coital.

:Michael


On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 10:00  pm, william godshalk wrote:

> I live with an expostcolonial student who tells me that there is a 
> difference among "post-colonial," "post colonial," and "postcolonial." 
> Unfortunately she can't remember which is which. Can anyone help me 
> out?
>
> Bill_______________________________________________
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jul  8 14:19:00 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 17:19:00 -0400
Subject: [ilds] back to the text -- no more culture wars please
In-Reply-To: <4690C7A2.7050103@wfu.edu>
References: <4690C7A2.7050103@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <20070708211919.OBDI7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sun Jul  8 14:25:51 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 14:25:51 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] suburbia, bars, and topers
Message-ID: <369471.1183929952180.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

And when he steps away from his Dom Hotel, his Xanadu, he enters a Greek bar, Clito's cavern, where he meets "the people," the Cypriot people:  Greeks and a Turk.  He feels at home because he's among fellow "topers," one of whom is "gorgeously drunk."  He also experiences some hostility at being English, but Greek hospitality towards strangers prevails.  However, he takes advantage of that hospitality by telling a boldfaced lie about his brother dying at Thermopylae.  Thereby outwitting the clever Greeks, those masters of intrigue, and demonstrating his superiority as an Englishman, albeit a self-admitted "perfidious" one.

The scene is dramatic, funny, and perfectly timed.  Did it happen?  Could it have happened?  Does that make a difference?  Is it in character with Durrell's personality?  And what's this obsession with "topers?"  Why are they "privileged" and marked for special approval?  And what about the locals?  Do they find their characterization patronizing, another kind of colonization?

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Sent: Jul 8, 2007 7:56 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] suburbia and hotels and death
>
>
>It is not me but Durrell who brings us back to suburbia, as in the line 
>quoted by Charles below.  This gallery of humours is the Dome Hotel in 
>Kyrenia, 'like every forgotten Victorian pension between Folkestone and 
>Scarborough'.  This hotel motif appears throughout Durrell.  It is the 
>cosmos within which The Black Book operates, that is the Regina Hotel, 
>based on the Queens Hotel in which the Durrell family lived for a while 
>in suburban South London.  In Panic Spring there is another hotel from 
>which the hero sets out on his journey; that one is at Brindisi and is 
>called the Hotel Superbo.  And of course there is the Cecil Hotel at 
>Alexandria, where people stay and people pass and people see one 
>another in mirrors; for all its seeming exoticism, the Cecil is 
>described as 'moribund': 'I had first seen her, in the gaunt vestibule 
>of the Cecil, in a mirror. In the vestibule of this moribund hotel the 
>palms splinter and refract their motionless fronds in the gilt-edged 
>mirrors' (p65).  The Dome Hotel is the location at which Durrell 
>chooses to tell us that he has a stake in neither the English nor the 
>Cypriot world.  But he has already used this device to show us that he 
>has no stake, or is trying hard to have no stake, in this tomblike 
>world -- of which in fact he was so much a part throughout his younger 
>life, including his very British experience of India.  But when he 
>steps outside that world, the Cypriots will try to kill him.  Bitter 
>Lemons.
>
>:Michael
>
>
>On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 12:16  pm, slighcl wrote:
>>
>>
>> Here is a specific sentence to consider, a sentence that I have been 
>> concentrating upon while making yet another summer trip, this time 
>> into the wilds of the Cumberland Plateau:
>>
>> The truth is that both the British and the Cypriot world offered one a 
>> gallery of humours which could only be fully enjoyed by one who, like 
>> myself, had a stake in neither.  ("Voices at the Tavern Door")
>>
>> Readers, whatever your affiliation, affection, or affectation, go to 
>> work on that sentence. 
>>


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jul  8 14:26:19 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 17:26:19 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Voices at the Tavern Door -- ONE
 MORE TIME
In-Reply-To: <4690C7A2.7050103@wfu.edu>
References: <4690C7A2.7050103@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <20070708212649.QOYF15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sun Jul  8 14:30:24 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 14:30:24 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
Message-ID: <27844687.1183930225406.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

No, but this is all moot.  No English department would hire a dinosaur like me.  I feel for you, though.  If your students are that boring, you deserve a little fun.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jul 8, 2007 2:08 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] conspiracy
>
>Bill, are you teachingliterature or are you teaching the psychodynamics of reading?  Ithink you teach literature.  If you give an exam on Bitter Lemonsand ask for Durrell's views on British colonialism and then I come backand feed you a couple of blue books about my vacation on the island withmy last girlfriend and how we partied with the British ex-pats in theirsuburban enclaves and how we all got drunk and went looking for Durrell'shouse in Bellapaix, using BL as a guidebook -- if that was the solecontent of my essay, what would you do?  By the standards you'vejust advocated, I clearly deserve an A or A+.
>
>Bruce writes.
>If I got a paper that interesting I would absolutely give it a 100. Topmarks. You don't realize the boring -- "things" I have to read.
>
>But I have colleagues who (apparently) like reading these things.
>
>So, we are back to different strokes for different folks. Beauty is inthe eye of the beholder, as Dad used to like to quote. My brain isdifferent from yours. I gather you would not give that adventurousstudent an A. 
>
>Bill
>
>***************************************
>W. L.Godshalk          *
>Department ofEnglish         *
>University ofCincinnati           Stellar disorder  *
>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>513-281-5927
>***************************************


From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sun Jul  8 14:32:27 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 14:32:27 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] back to the text -- no more culture wars please
Message-ID: <21992731.1183930348173.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sun Jul  8 15:19:16 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 18:19:16 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- suburbia, bars, and topers
In-Reply-To: <369471.1183929952180.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <369471.1183929952180.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <469162E4.7090706@wfu.edu>

On 7/8/2007 5:25 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:

>He feels at home because he's among fellow "topers," one of whom is "gorgeously drunk."  
>
I will note that throughout the works Durrell finds his fellowship in 
drink.  Already in /Bitter Lemons/ we have seen ouzo, wine, &c. save the 
day, preventing conflict and cementing alliances. 

Norman Douglas uses drink in a similar way in his books. 

Too bad we have lost this ritualized form of relating.   Bu there is not 
much hope that our presidents and preachers will heed us.  We live in 
latter days of increased Puritanism, east and west.  They want to bring 
us closer to their pale routinized gods and to make us live so much 
longer, but in what sort of world, gone grey and badly blanched?  I am 
thinking more of Swinburne's Hymn than of Weber.

>He also experiences some hostility at being English, but Greek hospitality towards strangers prevails.  However, he takes advantage of that hospitality by telling a boldfaced lie about his brother dying at Thermopylae.  Thereby outwitting the clever Greeks, those masters of intrigue, and demonstrating his superiority as an Englishman, albeit a self-admitted "perfidious" one.
>  
>
As I drive, Isaac and I are listening to Ian McKellen read Fagles' 
translation of the /Odyssey/.  It is so good to revisit Odysseus again.  
He was my big hero in high school.  A role model.  Not to be the fastest 
or the most beautiful or even the smartest, but rather to excel by 
maximizing what resources you do have at hand.  And if to be like 
Odysseus defines Greek nature in the Western tradition, then wily 
Durrell "outwits" the Greeks by being more Greek.

>The scene is dramatic, funny, and perfectly timed.  Did it happen?  Could it have happened?  Does that make a difference?  
>
I will enjoy it either way.  What does Browning say about Troy in 
"Development"?  Ah, here we are--"no dream's worth waking."

Knowing Durrell, we are witnessing high story-telling at work here.  
Thus the perfect timing that you correctly note, Bruce.  This story 
about Clito's is all too like a drinking tale about drinking.

Now to it!

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From vcel at ix.netcom.com  Sun Jul  8 13:27:50 2007
From: vcel at ix.netcom.com (Vittorio Celentano)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 16:27:50 -0400
Subject: [ilds] conspiracy
References: <BAY108-F39CC36EECB2DC101718986B0070@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <001e01c7c19e$76012ad0$ed525645@vittoriohx7smy>

Pamela,

Perhaps the mission statement of the Maryknoll Sisters will clarify your
devotion: http://www.maryknoll.org/MARYKNOLL/SISTERS/ms_missn.htm

Vittorio
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pamela Francis" <albigensian at hotmail.com>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] conspiracy


> Bill says:
> As for theory, we all have our theories -- we have to have theories, as
> Norman Holland points out. But I have personal experience of theories
> controlling readings. A rigid theory limits the questions that are
asked -- 
> and thus answered. Ronald Crane many years ago said the best criticism is
> the one that asks the most questions.
>
> My point exactly--any theoretical approach asks certain kinds of
> questions--a limitation that bothers you and Michael.  However, it is just
> one set of questions, and it's the set i like to ask of a text.  That
> doesn't mean i am limited to that set of questions.  As Jamie has said in
> his replies, circumstances of a text's reception, the publishing history,
> etc. and so forth, all add to the layers of a text.  Some people choose to
> focus their reading on one layer of the text--and i certainly demonstrate
> some particular reading strategies to my students.  But then, the next lit
> class they take will introduce them to other reading strategies.  The
> perception of the critic as a high priest is due to the ridiculous status
> and salaries accorded to some academics who really want to be "public
> intellectuals", whateve that may mean.  But those in the trenches do not
> require their students to sign oaths of dedication to postcolonial,
> deconstructive, historicist, phenomenological, etc. reading strategies.
>
> But Charles is right. We should be discussing LD's works.  But just one
more
> non-LD comment: i think my comment on my contributions to the Maryknoll
> Sisters was lost on Michael and probably most readers--the Maryknoll
Sisters
> are associated with "liberation theology" in Latin America, and were
> considered a thorn in the side of JPII's early anti-communist/socialist
> stances (later much softened).  The CIA has also been extremely vexed by
> their presence.  Two of the four churchwomen killed by the El Salvador
> military in 1980 were Maryknoll sisters.  The order also runs Orbis Books,
a
> publishing house focusing on social justice in the Christian tradition.
>
> So, back to LD...
>
>
> >From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> >Reply-To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >Subject: Re: [ilds] conspiracy
> >Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 13:38:25 -0400
> >
> >
> >
> >I will defend my own
> >position, however,my own approach to literature, as my way of making
> >sense of the world, which I think is why many of us read at all. I will
> >also defend the intellectual abilities of fellow "postcolonial"
> >(quotes aqain!) scholars. ---Pamela
> >
> >I read because the world makes no sense at all, but I don't expect
> >literature to give it any sense -- for me.
> >
> >
> >As for theory, we all have our theories -- we have to have theories, as
> >Norman Holland points out. But I have personal experience of theories
> >controlling readings. A rigid theory limits the questions that are asked
> >-- and thus answered. Ronald Crane many years ago said the best criticism
> >is the one that asks the most questions.
> >
> >
> >Bill
> >
> >
> >***************************************
> >W. L.
> >Godshalk
> > *
> >Department of
> >English *
> >University of
> >Cincinnati
> >Stellar disorder *
> >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 *
> >513-281-5927
> >***************************************
> >
> >
>
>
> >_______________________________________________
> >ILDS mailing list
> >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>


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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jul  8 18:27:34 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:27:34 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- hotels
In-Reply-To: <469162E4.7090706@wfu.edu>
References: <369471.1183929952180.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<469162E4.7090706@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <20070709012745.RHLO15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

Michael's comment on Durrell and hotels seems right on target. Are 
hotels in Durrell liminal places? Durrell in a hotel has stopped 
traveling for the nonce, but has not checked in for the long haul. He 
belongs and he doesn't belong. In any case, he won't stay long.

Also Charlie's idea that Durrell in the cavern/tavern reflects 
Odysseus in the cave of Polyphemus is a stroke of genius. But is 
there much of a threat to our (mock) epic traveler?

Bill
***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sun Jul  8 18:47:23 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 02:47:23 +0100
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- hotels
In-Reply-To: <20070709012745.RHLO15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <56DDE12E-2DBE-11DC-861E-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

The tavern scene in Bitter Lemons reminds me of that other tavern scene 
in Prospero's Cell, which establishes Durrell's Olympian sense of 
history and promotes the eternal Greek:

Prospero, p59: 'Thus Ulysses can only be ratified as an historical 
figure with the help of the fishermen who to-day sit in the smoky 
tavern of "The Dragon" playing cards and waiting for the wind to 
change'.

As for hotels, they always seem to be claustrophobic places from which 
he must escape, though it is usually difficult to escape, as from the 
Superbo in Brindisi because there was no ship, or the Regina in South 
London, or Alexandria and the Cecil Hotel with its mirrors and 
misdirecting women.

:Michael



On Monday, July 9, 2007, at 02:27  am, william godshalk wrote:

> Michael's comment on Durrell and hotels seems right on target. Are
> hotels in Durrell liminal places? Durrell in a hotel has stopped
> traveling for the nonce, but has not checked in for the long haul. He
> belongs and he doesn't belong. In any case, he won't stay long.
>
> Also Charlie's idea that Durrell in the cavern/tavern reflects
> Odysseus in the cave of Polyphemus is a stroke of genius. But is
> there much of a threat to our (mock) epic traveler?
>
> Bill
> ***************************************
> W. L. Godshalk		*
> Department of English         *
> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> 513-281-5927
> ***************************************
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jul  8 18:59:39 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:59:39 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- hotels
In-Reply-To: <56DDE12E-2DBE-11DC-861E-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <20070709012745.RHLO15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<56DDE12E-2DBE-11DC-861E-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070709015939.OXCO7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sun Jul  8 19:19:48 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 03:19:48 +0100
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- hotels
In-Reply-To: <20070709015939.OXCO7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <DDD0C148-2DC2-11DC-861E-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

The world.

:Michael



On Monday, July 9, 2007, at 02:59  am, william godshalk wrote:

> Hotels -- claustrophobic places -- like jails and prisons? This would 
> take some thinking on. Would it fit into other patterns in Durrell -- 
> places of no escape?
>
> Prospero, p. 59: 'Thus Ulysses can only be ratified as an historical
> figure with the help of the fishermen who to-day sit in the smoky
> tavern of "The Dragon" playing cards and waiting for the wind to
> change'.
>
> This passage, of course, fits in with Charlie's reading of the 
> cavern/tavern in BL.
>
> Bill_______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sun Jul  8 19:40:54 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:40:54 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Frangos
In-Reply-To: <20070709012745.RHLO15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <369471.1183929952180.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<469162E4.7090706@wfu.edu>
	<20070709012745.RHLO15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <4691A036.7040301@wfu.edu>

On 7/8/2007 9:27 PM, william godshalk wrote:

>
>Also Charlie's idea that Durrell in the cavern/tavern reflects 
>Odysseus in the cave of Polyphemus is a stroke of genius. But is 
>there much of a threat to our (mock) epic traveler?
>  
>
/ /I think that answer depends upon what you make of Frangos.  How do we 
take him? 

Is this cyclops character just a laughable clown, more than half-blind 
with drink and his badly digested nationalist prejudices against the 
English?  Or could he embody an elemental, chthonic Cypriot spirit, 
ready to throw out the occupiers?

Either of those is possible.  Both may be there.  I tend to think that 
Frangos in this chapter is a blowhard expressive of the deep tensions 
welling up.  After Joyce's /Ulysses/, with its "Cyclops" episode filled 
with drink and anti-semitic slurs against the "half-and-half," we can be 
comfortable with mock-epic and absurd connections.  This need not parse 
clean.

Whatever the case, Durrell in /Bitter Lemons /is clearly making himself 
seem to be a wily hero passing crucial trials.  Most of these trials 
involve prejudice and what he refers to as lapses of "sentiment."

One last thought:  In 1953, 1878--the crucial year when the British came 
in--is still within a generation's memory for these "characters."

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
*********************

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jul  8 19:44:37 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:44:37 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- places of limitation
In-Reply-To: <DDD0C148-2DC2-11DC-861E-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
References: <20070709015939.OXCO7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<DDD0C148-2DC2-11DC-861E-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20070709024457.RORX15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

Michael, you'll never get out of here alive.

But I meant something more, shall we say, limited. Like Darley's 
island. Like islands in general. Like embassy compounds. Like a small 
town in southern France?

Okay, you can always leave a town or an island or a compound. But at 
the same time these are isolated places in some sense. Even Clito's 
wine shop is an enclosed place. He won't let his wife in (though 
later he is taken home by his daughter). Thank god for daughters, I say.

And doesn't this chapter move from the "big picture" of an island in 
change to the pictures on a wine shop wall. The wine shop in itself 
is a liminal place for Durrell. A special of male companionship, 
where all come together in  -- drink. As Charlie suggests.

Bill
***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sun Jul  8 19:48:51 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 03:48:51 +0100
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Frangos
In-Reply-To: <4691A036.7040301@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <ED02CF20-2DC6-11DC-861E-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

The relevance of 1878 is not that the British came in but that the 
British got the Turks out.  Hence the friendship between the Greeks and 
the English.  The problem became that now the Greeks wanted the place 
for themselves, regardless of the consequences.  And we have seen what 
those consequences were.

:Michael


On Monday, July 9, 2007, at 03:40  am, slighcl wrote:

> One last thought:? In 1953, 1878--the crucial year when the British 
> came in--is still within a generation's memory for these "characters."
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sun Jul  8 19:53:28 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 03:53:28 +0100
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- places of limitation
In-Reply-To: <20070709024457.RORX15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <91E637B0-2DC7-11DC-861E-000393B1149C@btinternet.com>

Durrell certainly liked constricted places, cut off places, places 
where his writ was cosmic.  World, as I say; one world or the other, 
and for Durrell the point was that this was not the real one.

:Michael


On Monday, July 9, 2007, at 03:44  am, william godshalk wrote:

> Michael, you'll never get out of here alive.
>
> But I meant something more, shall we say, limited. Like Darley's
> island. Like islands in general. Like embassy compounds. Like a small
> town in southern France?
>
> Okay, you can always leave a town or an island or a compound. But at
> the same time these are isolated places in some sense. Even Clito's
> wine shop is an enclosed place. He won't let his wife in (though
> later he is taken home by his daughter). Thank god for daughters, I 
> say.
>
> And doesn't this chapter move from the "big picture" of an island in
> change to the pictures on a wine shop wall. The wine shop in itself
> is a liminal place for Durrell. A special of male companionship,
> where all come together in  -- drink. As Charlie suggests.
>
> Bill
> ***************************************
> W. L. Godshalk		*
> Department of English         *
> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> 513-281-5927
> ***************************************
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jul  8 19:50:45 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:50:45 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Frangos
In-Reply-To: <4691A036.7040301@wfu.edu>
References: <369471.1183929952180.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<469162E4.7090706@wfu.edu>
	<20070709012745.RHLO15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<4691A036.7040301@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <20070709025055.PBND7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jul  8 19:55:38 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:55:38 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- no sailors eaten
In-Reply-To: <20070709025055.PBND7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email
	.uc.edu>
References: <369471.1183929952180.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<469162E4.7090706@wfu.edu>
	<20070709012745.RHLO15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<4691A036.7040301@wfu.edu>
	<20070709025055.PBND7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <20070709025607.RPOZ15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

Not eatin any sailors, that is.

Bill
***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sun Jul  8 20:00:47 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 23:00:47 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Bitter Lemons -- Frangos
In-Reply-To: <20070709025055.PBND7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <369471.1183929952180.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<469162E4.7090706@wfu.edu>	<20070709012745.RHLO15819.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>	<4691A036.7040301@wfu.edu>
	<20070709025055.PBND7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <4691A4DF.4080405@wfu.edu>



On 7/8/2007 10:50 PM, william godshalk wrote:*

*

> Well, Renos giggles at Frangos. That's one clue. The constabulary are 
> surrounding him. No one is fleeing as in /Shane/. And, of course, he's 
> dead drunk -- and he then gives in -- and rides home.
>
> This Polyphemus is going to be eatin any sailors. Probably.


Recall that in Homer the Cyclops Polyphemus is pretty silly with drink 
by the time he goes down.  I will recall that his fond concern for his 
sheep always touches me.

C&c.

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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