From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Jun 11 11:13:11 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 11:13:11 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] New, Conservative Alexandria
Message-ID: <13818376.1181585591536.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Alexandria still?

Bruce

-----Forwarded Message-----
>From: Glenn Meyer <glenn at glennmeyer.net>
>Sent: Jun 11, 2007 10:09 AM
>To: undisclosed-recipients at null, null at null
>Subject: [arcenc] New, conservative Alexandria - baltimoresun.com
>
>http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.alexandria10jun10,0,1637619.story?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines
>
>
>  New, conservative Alexandria
>
>An ancient center of enlightenment is under tight hand of Islamic religion
>Associated Press
>Originally published June 10, 2007
>
>ALEXANDRIA, Egypt // A white marble statue of a nude Aphrodite in a 
>playful pose is on display in the antiquities museum of the Library of 
>Alexandria. One story up, sociology major Dalia Mohammed, a devout 
>Muslim covered head to toe, is studying for a spring term paper.
>
>The ancient sculpture of the Greek goddess of beauty and the Egyptian 
>student represent contrasting Alexandrias.
>
>The statue, discovered at a spot close to the library, harks back to the 
>Mediterranean city's days as the center of enlightenment in the ancient 
>world - and its 19th and 20th century past as a place where Muslims, 
>Christians and Jews of different ethnic backgrounds lived in harmony.
>
>Mohammed is a child of today's Alexandria - a city that has divorced 
>itself from its liberal traditions and easygoing ways and instead 
>adopted religious conservatism, with Islamists holding sway.
>
>It is the way most Egypt has gone. But given Alexandria's fabled past, 
>there might not be another place in this nation of 77 million people - 
>mostly Muslim but with a significant Christian minority - where the 
>change is more pronounced.
>
>The only women in Alexandria who don't wear the Islamic veil are 
>Christians and a small minority of Muslims. Women have long stopped 
>wearing swimsuits on the city's popular beaches. Those who wish to take 
>a swim do so in the darkness before dawn.
>
>"Alexandrians have lost their traditional ties to the beach and sea," 
>lamented Mona Abdel-Salam, 42, an independent journalist who says she 
>would wear a swimsuit only on exclusive private beaches or at the pools 
>in luxury hotels.
>
>Most of the city's famous bars, restaurants and night spots are no 
>longer in business, their owners long ago returned to Europe. Only a few 
>- mostly elderly people - remain from the once prosperous and large 
>expatriate community of Greeks, Cypriots, Italians, French and Armenians 
>who once made Alexandria Egypt's most cosmopolitan city.
>
>The outlawed Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt's largest Islamist group, has 
>more lawmakers elected from Alexandria than from any other city. The 
>city of 5 million people also has a large Salafi movement, a brand of 
>Islam more extreme than the Brotherhood - its followers are recognized 
>by their long beards and shorter than usual robes.
>
>They preach a ban on contacts between Muslims and Christians, and 
>residents blame them for violent clashes with Christians in recent years.
>
>The city's move toward fundamentalism has driven away the wealthy and 
>secular middle-class Egyptians who once flocked to Alexandria in the 
>summer for its beaches and nightlife.
>
>It is a far cry from the Alexandria depicted in dozens of famous 
>Egyptian movies dating back to the 1940s, in which young men and women 
>found love while vacationing in the city. Endless popular songs from the 
>era laud the city's cool sea breeze, the beauty of its women and how 
>easily love flourishes.
>
>Mohammed is more the model for the new Alexandria.
>
>She says she avoids contact with men in her college, doesn't go to the 
>beach for reasons of modesty and has only Christian acquaintances, not 
>friends, in her mixed neighborhood of Muharram Bey, the scene of 
>Muslim-Christian clashes in late 2005 and early 2006 that killed six people.
>
>"We cannot be close friends with Christians, but we can be civil to each 
>other," she said.
>
>The older of two daughters born to a father working in the Persian Gulf 
>and a homemaker mother, Mohammed says she began wearing the veil out at 16.
>
>"I felt it was the right time for me," said the slender young woman, 
>though she wears the bright colors, tight top and loads of jewelry 
>popular among young women who strive to fuse Islamic modesty with being 
>trendy.
>
>"You cannot say that what I am wearing is strictly Islamic, but it will 
>do for now," she said with a smile. "I will wear loose clothes when I am 
>older."
>
>What has influenced a young woman like Mohammed to become so 
>conservative and insular is the story of Egypt, where authoritarian 
>rule, chronic economic woes and a culture of corruption have pushed 
>millions to find refuge in a strict interpretation of their faith.
>
>President Hosni Mubarak has shown zero tolerance for militant Islamic 
>groups, jailing thousands and endorsing the execution of dozens since 
>coming to office 25 years ago. At the same time, his government has 
>sought to match the appeal of Islamist groups such as the Brotherhood, 
>cracking down on public shows of irreverence to religion and dragging 
>its feet on granting women and Christians full rights.
>
>Combined, the spread of religious fundamentalism, economic hardship and 
>the political exclusion of most Egyptians have built an increasingly 
>intolerant society, resistant to change and suspicious of outsiders.
>
>"You are lonely in Alexandria if you're not religious," said Malek 
>Mustapha, a 29-year-old political blogger who makes a living designing 
>Internet sites.
>
>The departure of the city's large expatriate community in the 1950s and 
>1960s, when revolutionary leader Gamal Abdel Nasser pursued hard-line 
>nationalist policies, dealt the first blow to the city's cosmopolitan 
>atmosphere.
>
>Next came waves of migrants from Egypt's conservative countryside in the 
>1960s. Later, many left for the oil-rich Gulf region for better incomes.
>
>Tens of thousands returned to Alexandria, bringing back the Islamic 
>conservatism prevailing in much of the Gulf.
>
>"Everyone of them brought a satchel full of conservative and antiquated 
>patterns of behavior," said Hosni Abdel-Malak, a 58-year-old Egyptology 
>instructor.
>
>Islamists boast of their gains in the city.
>
>"There are no Muslim secularists in Alexandria. Only Christians," said 
>Osama al-Adawy, a microbiology professor at the University of Alexandria 
>and a local Muslim Brotherhood leader.
>
>In Muharram Bey, Mohammed's mixed neighborhood, the Islamist influence 
>is clear in the hundreds of leaflets plastered on homes, schools and 
>storefronts, reading: "Prayer is the backbone of your faith," "Thanks be 
>to God for he has shown me the way to the veil," and "Whoever quits 
>praying or drinks alcohol is a pagan."
>
>


From DKaczv at garts.latech.edu  Mon Jun 11 13:00:59 2007
From: DKaczv at garts.latech.edu (DKaczv at garts.latech.edu)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:00:59 -600
Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 3, Issue 13
Message-ID: <AE2B50565F0@Libarts.LaTech.edu>

I will be out of the office until June 29th. 
In case of an emergency, please contact Mr. Bill Willoughby,  Associate Dean of Liberal Arts,
at ext. 2660.
Thank you. 
Dr. Don Kaczvinsky

From dtart at bigpond.net.au  Mon Jun 11 13:36:41 2007
From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 06:36:41 +1000
Subject: [ilds] New, Conservative Alexandria
References: <13818376.1181585591536.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001201c7ac68$38038700$0302a8c0@MumandDad>

well, I guess that make me and most of my countrymen pagans - most Americans 
too I imagine (especially the ones in Boston)? and, as for the Brits, they 
are beyond redemption. LD would turn in his grave. No wonder he went to 
France. O blessed land that does beer and baguettes at 7am, Coffee and 
conjac at 10am and wine with lunch at 1pm!!

DG


Denise Tart & David Green
16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204

+61 2 9564 6165
0412 707 625
dtart at bigpond.net.au
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Redwine" <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
To: "Durrell list" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 4:13 AM
Subject: [ilds] New, Conservative Alexandria


> Alexandria still?
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Forwarded Message-----
>>From: Glenn Meyer <glenn at glennmeyer.net>
>>Sent: Jun 11, 2007 10:09 AM
>>To: undisclosed-recipients at null, null at null
>>Subject: [arcenc] New, conservative Alexandria - baltimoresun.com
>>
>>http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.alexandria10jun10,0,1637619.story?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines
>>
>>
>>  New, conservative Alexandria
>>
>>An ancient center of enlightenment is under tight hand of Islamic religion
>>Associated Press
>>Originally published June 10, 2007
>>
>>ALEXANDRIA, Egypt // A white marble statue of a nude Aphrodite in a
>>playful pose is on display in the antiquities museum of the Library of
>>Alexandria. One story up, sociology major Dalia Mohammed, a devout
>>Muslim covered head to toe, is studying for a spring term paper.
>>
>>The ancient sculpture of the Greek goddess of beauty and the Egyptian
>>student represent contrasting Alexandrias.
>>
>>The statue, discovered at a spot close to the library, harks back to the
>>Mediterranean city's days as the center of enlightenment in the ancient
>>world - and its 19th and 20th century past as a place where Muslims,
>>Christians and Jews of different ethnic backgrounds lived in harmony.
>>
>>Mohammed is a child of today's Alexandria - a city that has divorced
>>itself from its liberal traditions and easygoing ways and instead
>>adopted religious conservatism, with Islamists holding sway.
>>
>>It is the way most Egypt has gone. But given Alexandria's fabled past,
>>there might not be another place in this nation of 77 million people -
>>mostly Muslim but with a significant Christian minority - where the
>>change is more pronounced.
>>
>>The only women in Alexandria who don't wear the Islamic veil are
>>Christians and a small minority of Muslims. Women have long stopped
>>wearing swimsuits on the city's popular beaches. Those who wish to take
>>a swim do so in the darkness before dawn.
>>
>>"Alexandrians have lost their traditional ties to the beach and sea,"
>>lamented Mona Abdel-Salam, 42, an independent journalist who says she
>>would wear a swimsuit only on exclusive private beaches or at the pools
>>in luxury hotels.
>>
>>Most of the city's famous bars, restaurants and night spots are no
>>longer in business, their owners long ago returned to Europe. Only a few
>>- mostly elderly people - remain from the once prosperous and large
>>expatriate community of Greeks, Cypriots, Italians, French and Armenians
>>who once made Alexandria Egypt's most cosmopolitan city.
>>
>>The outlawed Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt's largest Islamist group, has
>>more lawmakers elected from Alexandria than from any other city. The
>>city of 5 million people also has a large Salafi movement, a brand of
>>Islam more extreme than the Brotherhood - its followers are recognized
>>by their long beards and shorter than usual robes.
>>
>>They preach a ban on contacts between Muslims and Christians, and
>>residents blame them for violent clashes with Christians in recent years.
>>
>>The city's move toward fundamentalism has driven away the wealthy and
>>secular middle-class Egyptians who once flocked to Alexandria in the
>>summer for its beaches and nightlife.
>>
>>It is a far cry from the Alexandria depicted in dozens of famous
>>Egyptian movies dating back to the 1940s, in which young men and women
>>found love while vacationing in the city. Endless popular songs from the
>>era laud the city's cool sea breeze, the beauty of its women and how
>>easily love flourishes.
>>
>>Mohammed is more the model for the new Alexandria.
>>
>>She says she avoids contact with men in her college, doesn't go to the
>>beach for reasons of modesty and has only Christian acquaintances, not
>>friends, in her mixed neighborhood of Muharram Bey, the scene of
>>Muslim-Christian clashes in late 2005 and early 2006 that killed six 
>>people.
>>
>>"We cannot be close friends with Christians, but we can be civil to each
>>other," she said.
>>
>>The older of two daughters born to a father working in the Persian Gulf
>>and a homemaker mother, Mohammed says she began wearing the veil out at 
>>16.
>>
>>"I felt it was the right time for me," said the slender young woman,
>>though she wears the bright colors, tight top and loads of jewelry
>>popular among young women who strive to fuse Islamic modesty with being
>>trendy.
>>
>>"You cannot say that what I am wearing is strictly Islamic, but it will
>>do for now," she said with a smile. "I will wear loose clothes when I am
>>older."
>>
>>What has influenced a young woman like Mohammed to become so
>>conservative and insular is the story of Egypt, where authoritarian
>>rule, chronic economic woes and a culture of corruption have pushed
>>millions to find refuge in a strict interpretation of their faith.
>>
>>President Hosni Mubarak has shown zero tolerance for militant Islamic
>>groups, jailing thousands and endorsing the execution of dozens since
>>coming to office 25 years ago. At the same time, his government has
>>sought to match the appeal of Islamist groups such as the Brotherhood,
>>cracking down on public shows of irreverence to religion and dragging
>>its feet on granting women and Christians full rights.
>>
>>Combined, the spread of religious fundamentalism, economic hardship and
>>the political exclusion of most Egyptians have built an increasingly
>>intolerant society, resistant to change and suspicious of outsiders.
>>
>>"You are lonely in Alexandria if you're not religious," said Malek
>>Mustapha, a 29-year-old political blogger who makes a living designing
>>Internet sites.
>>
>>The departure of the city's large expatriate community in the 1950s and
>>1960s, when revolutionary leader Gamal Abdel Nasser pursued hard-line
>>nationalist policies, dealt the first blow to the city's cosmopolitan
>>atmosphere.
>>
>>Next came waves of migrants from Egypt's conservative countryside in the
>>1960s. Later, many left for the oil-rich Gulf region for better incomes.
>>
>>Tens of thousands returned to Alexandria, bringing back the Islamic
>>conservatism prevailing in much of the Gulf.
>>
>>"Everyone of them brought a satchel full of conservative and antiquated
>>patterns of behavior," said Hosni Abdel-Malak, a 58-year-old Egyptology
>>instructor.
>>
>>Islamists boast of their gains in the city.
>>
>>"There are no Muslim secularists in Alexandria. Only Christians," said
>>Osama al-Adawy, a microbiology professor at the University of Alexandria
>>and a local Muslim Brotherhood leader.
>>
>>In Muharram Bey, Mohammed's mixed neighborhood, the Islamist influence
>>is clear in the hundreds of leaflets plastered on homes, schools and
>>storefronts, reading: "Prayer is the backbone of your faith," "Thanks be
>>to God for he has shown me the way to the veil," and "Whoever quits
>>praying or drinks alcohol is a pagan."
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Mon Jun 11 15:41:49 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 18:41:49 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Let's go for it!
In-Reply-To: <466DBAAA.4030604@wfu.edu>
References: <4f10d526a80840fc7bc170baed172676@charter.net>
	<466DBAAA.4030604@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <20070611224152.GKQP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Mon Jun 11 16:45:17 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 19:45:17 -0400
Subject: [ilds] cento, pastiche, palimpsest?
In-Reply-To: <20070611224152.GKQP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email
	.uc.edu>
References: <4f10d526a80840fc7bc170baed172676@charter.net>
	<466DBAAA.4030604@wfu.edu>
	<20070611224152.GKQP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <20070611234521.CQMT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Mon Jun 11 18:08:54 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 18:08:54 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] cento, pastiche, palimpsest?
Message-ID: <25826495.1181610534774.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Mon Jun 11 18:12:28 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:12:28 -0400
Subject: [ilds] durrell parodies
In-Reply-To: <20070611234521.CQMT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <4f10d526a80840fc7bc170baed172676@charter.net>	<466DBAAA.4030604@wfu.edu>	<20070611224152.GKQP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<20070611234521.CQMT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <466DF2FC.1010502@wfu.edu>

I have been reading about the parodies of Lawrence Durrell's style found 
in Roger Angell's /A Day in the Life of Roger Angell/ (1970) and Malcolm 
Bradbury's /Who Do You Think You Are/ (1976).  I have read neither of 
these books.  Has anyone on the list read one or the other?  Is the 
parody worthy of the subject?  That is, does it show us something that 
we did not know?

The original reference to Angell's and Bradbury's Durrell parodies was 
found in:

        "Impervious to Criticism": Contemporary Parody and Trash
        Terry Caesar
        /SubStance/, Vol. 20, No. 1, Issue 64. (1991), pp. 67-79.

Thanks!

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Mon Jun 11 19:52:54 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 22:52:54 -0400
Subject: [ilds] cento, pastiche, palimpsest?
In-Reply-To: <25826495.1181610534774.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.
	earthlink.net>
References: <25826495.1181610534774.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070612025323.DLWI7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From durrells at otenet.gr  Mon Jun 11 23:20:30 2007
From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:20:30 +0300
Subject: [ilds] durrell parodies
References: <4f10d526a80840fc7bc170baed172676@charter.net>	<466DBAAA.4030604@wfu.edu>	<20070611224152.GKQP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><20070611234521.CQMT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<466DF2FC.1010502@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <002801c7acb9$c6c90ae0$0100000a@DSC01>

I've read the Bradbury, and it is not only 3rd rate Durrell but also 2nd rate Bradbury. Most disappointing. RP
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: slighcl 
  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 4:12 AM
  Subject: [ilds] durrell parodies


  I have been reading about the parodies of Lawrence Durrell's style found in Roger Angell's A Day in the Life of Roger Angell (1970) and Malcolm Bradbury's Who Do You Think You Are (1976).  I have read neither of these books.  Has anyone on the list read one or the other?  Is the parody worthy of the subject?  That is, does it show us something that we did not know?

  The original reference to Angell's and Bradbury's Durrell parodies was found in:

      "Impervious to Criticism": Contemporary Parody and Trash
      Terry Caesar
      SubStance, Vol. 20, No. 1, Issue 64. (1991), pp. 67-79.

  Thanks!

  Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Jun 12 09:02:23 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:02:23 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] cento, pastiche, palimpsest?
Message-ID: <14199427.1181664144269.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Bill, ah, you asked a serious question about style.  I don't think of Durrell's style as a cento, a term which I'm not that familiar with and can't think of any examples.  In fact, I'm not too keen on the other terms either, pastiche or palimpsest.  Why?  Primarily because I'm not aware of the other writers when reading Durrell.  His voice and style predominate, which may only mean he's very good at absorbing other influences and making them his own.  His unique poetry and vision is what holds everything together and gives it a Durrellian color.  Palimpsest has some appeal (as it does for Gore Vidal), and I believe Durrell uses it in Balthazar in the context of the Interlinear.  Durrell likes layers of time and history; he sees the world in those terms, much like Cavafy.  He's not sentimental and does not indulge in nostalgia, but he always seems acutely conscious of history.  He looks at a landscape as though it were a palimpsest, where ruins are the partial erasures of time.

What's The Recognitions and who's Leeder?

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jun 11, 2007 7:52 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] cento, pastiche, palimpsest?
>
> I think"Durrellian" will do quite nicely.
>
>Bruce
>Well, could we refer to the Durrellian cento? From what we all have beenillustrating for the past few days, weeks, the rags of time, Durrell'sstyle ran to pastiche or cento. As a former medievalist, I see palimpsestas a piece of vellum that has been scraped to make way for new material.As a metaphor it will do. But obviously not really. Is any one elsethinking of The Recognitions? 
>
>Bill
>
>PS I got a copy of Leeder's Modern Sons of the Pharaohs in themail today. 
>


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Tue Jun 12 10:08:12 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:08:12 -0400
Subject: [ilds] cento, pastiche, palimpsest?
In-Reply-To: <14199427.1181664144269.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa
	.earthlink.net>
References: <14199427.1181664144269.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070612170825.WXGO23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Tue Jun 12 10:33:31 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:33:31 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Xenophon trans. by Starkie: "as thick as
 meal"
In-Reply-To: <007401c7ab04$29df2fe0$6501a8c0@D13W0611>
References: <20070610001756.TZIY9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<007401c7ab04$29df2fe0$6501a8c0@D13W0611>
Message-ID: <20070612173333.GYVP7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Tue Jun 12 10:51:47 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:51:47 -0400
Subject: [ilds] palimpsest
In-Reply-To: <14199427.1181664144269.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa
	.earthlink.net>
References: <14199427.1181664144269.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070612175210.XFXF23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From durrells at otenet.gr  Tue Jun 12 11:33:59 2007
From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:33:59 +0300
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Xenophon trans. by Starkie: "as thick as
	meal"
References: <20070610001756.TZIY9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><007401c7ab04$29df2fe0$6501a8c0@D13W0611>
	<20070612173333.GYVP7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <00c201c7ad20$3e553a00$0100000a@DSC01>

This WJM Starkie is presumably the same WJM Starkie who was (effectively) Minister for Education in Ireland until independence (1922) and father of Enid Starkie, biographer of Rimbaud and Baudelaire?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: william godshalk 
  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 8:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine -- Xenophon trans. by Starkie: "as thick as meal"


    David Holdsworth notes that the following passage from Justine is indebted to Aristophanes' The Clouds 960-965.


    Durrell, Justine:  "schoolboys in naked ranks marching two abreast at dawn to the school of the Harpmaster, through falling snow as thick as meal."
     
  W. J. M. Starkie's translation (1911): "[schoolboys] marched through the streets in orderly procession, without their cloaks, to the music-teacher's house, though it snowed as thick as meal."


     Starkie partially follows W. W. Merry's translation (1894), but Durrell's "through falling snow as thick as meal" and Starkie's "it snowed as thick as meal" seem closest. 

  Of course, Durrell could have found the phrasing elsewhere.

  Cf. the Loeb translation 960-965: "And then to the home of the Harpist would come decorous in action and word
  All the lads of one town, though the snow peppered down, in spite of all wind and all weather."

  Bill

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From durrells at otenet.gr  Tue Jun 12 11:37:14 2007
From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:37:14 +0300
Subject: [ilds] palimpsest
References: <14199427.1181664144269.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<20070612175210.XFXF23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <00d101c7ad20$b2224ea0$0100000a@DSC01>

I draw your attention to a not very well-written article b y Kim Verwaayen in (R Pine ed) Creativity, Madness and Civilisation (Cambridge SCholars Publishing, 2007) on Charlotte Gilman Perkins' 'The Yellow Wallpaper' in which the 'palimpsest' is discussed in terms of 'smooching' and scraping along the wallpaper - the story/novella is well-known, this treatment may not be.
RP
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: william godshalk 
  To: Bruce Redwine ; ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 8:51 PM
  Subject: [ilds] palimpsest


  Here are the two references in Balthazar. 

  Balthazar (Dutton 1st edition): 

  "palimpsest upon which each of us had left his or her individual traces, layer by layer (p. 22)

  "Pursewarden's idea of a series of novels with `sliding panels' as he called them. or else, perhaps, like some medieval palimpsest where different sorts of truth are thrown down one upon the other" (p.183)

  But is Balthazar a palimpsest? Only metaphorically, I suggest. Justine is not really erased by Balthazar. The novels sit side by side chatting with each other on my shelf. Justine says one thing, and Baltazar says, "Yes, but." They are distinct and competing pictures. 
   
  Bill 

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  ***************************************
  W. L. Godshalk           *
  Department of English         *
  University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
  Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
  513-281-5927
  *************************************** 


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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Tue Jun 12 11:58:06 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 14:58:06 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Xenophon trans. by Starkie: "as thick as
 meal"
In-Reply-To: <00c201c7ad20$3e553a00$0100000a@DSC01>
References: <20070610001756.TZIY9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<007401c7ab04$29df2fe0$6501a8c0@D13W0611>
	<20070612173333.GYVP7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<00c201c7ad20$3e553a00$0100000a@DSC01>
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Tue Jun 12 11:58:38 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 11:58:38 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] palimpsest
Message-ID: <10220749.1181674718795.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Bill, yes, you're right -- I think this is what Durrell intends, "distinct and competing pictures" of reality, not erasures in the literal sense of a palimpsest.  (Balthazar, by the way, has always been my favorite novel in the Quartet, perhaps for this very aspect, along with the introduction of Pursewarden's suicide.)  I might add, I don't think it profits much to examine Durrell's use of metaphor too closely or too logically.  If anything, he uses "fuzzy logic" and aims towards some other kind of reasoning, and says so to that effect in Key to Modern Poetry and elsewhere.  All this is part of his "style" and probably part of the reason that many English teachers and professors don't like him, i.e., his use of the language being sloppy, "over the top," and not the best example of "standard expository English."  And thank god for that.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jun 12, 2007 10:51 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: palimpsest
>
>Here are the two references in Balthazar. 
>
>Balthazar (Dutton 1st edition): 
>
>"palimpsest upon which each of us had left his or her individualtraces, layer by layer(p.22)
>
>"Pursewarden's idea of a series of novels with `sliding panels' ashe called them. or else, perhaps, like some medieval palimpsest wheredifferent sorts of truth are thrown down one upon the other"(p.183)
>
>But is Balthazar a palimpsest? Only metaphorically, I suggest.Justine is not really erased by Balthazar. The novels sitside by side chatting with each other on my shelf. Justine saysone thing, and Baltazar says, "Yes, but." They aredistinct and competing pictures. 
> 
>Bill


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Tue Jun 12 12:14:09 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:14:09 -0400
Subject: [ilds] the genuine Durrell voice, what is it?
In-Reply-To: <14199427.1181664144269.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa
	.earthlink.net>
References: <14199427.1181664144269.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Tue Jun 12 12:32:51 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:32:51 -0400
Subject: [ilds] only kidding
In-Reply-To: <20070612191421.HUZM7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email
	.uc.edu>
References: <14199427.1181664144269.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<20070612191421.HUZM7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 13:58:31 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 14:58:31 -0600
Subject: [ilds] palimpsest
In-Reply-To: <10220749.1181674718795.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <C2946517.D29E%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>

Two points for Bruce:

> (Balthazar, by the way, has always been my favorite
> novel in the Quartet, perhaps for this very aspect,
> along with the introduction of Pursewarden's suicide.)

Just as an aside, I'm editing Henry Miller & Herbert Read's correspondence
just now, and Read takes the opposite stance.  He describes the Quartet as
they only kind of fiction he can bear reading anymore, but thinks Durrell
made a mistake by revising Justine in Balthazar.  He clearly considered
Justine the superior novel.  I would have greatly disagreed with that the
first few times I read the Quartet, but now I wonder...

> I don't think it profits much to examine Durrell's use
> of metaphor too closely or too logically.  If anything,
> he uses "fuzzy logic" and aims towards some other kind
> of reasoning

In his letters to Miller, he describes it as mixing his adjective and nouns
hot and cold (I think this happens with the metaphors too, in the same way).
The example he gives, and I often use this in the classroom for discussions
of metaphorical fusion, is a "mathematical strawberry."  As a 'readerly'
moment, however one combines those two words and their traits or
associations, it will be unique to the individual reader, as is every
instance of metaphoric fusion.  Personally "The hills are alive with the
sound of music" has always made me think of earthquakes -- I first saw the
film in childhood proximity to the eruption of Mount St. Helens, which we
could both hear and feel.

Cheers,
James



From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 14:00:08 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:00:08 -0600
Subject: [ilds] palimpsest
In-Reply-To: <00d101c7ad20$b2224ea0$0100000a@DSC01>
Message-ID: <C2946578.D29F%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>

I've taught Durrell's "Zero & Asylum in the Snow" back to back with "The
Yellow Wallpaper," though I don't think Durrell used the previous text.  So
far as I know, the palimpsest equating to the wallpaper is a new reading.

--J


On 6/12/07 12:37 PM, "Durrell School of Corfu" <durrells at otenet.gr> wrote:

> I draw your attention to a not very well-written article b y Kim Verwaayen in
> (R Pine ed) Creativity, Madness and Civilisation (Cambridge SCholars
> Publishing, 2007) on Charlotte Gilman Perkins' 'The Yellow Wallpaper' in which
> the 'palimpsest' is discussed in terms of 'smooching' and scraping along the
> wallpaper - the story/novella is well-known, this treatment may not be.
> RP



From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 14:01:12 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:01:12 -0600
Subject: [ilds] Palimpsest versus Cento
In-Reply-To: <20070612175210.XFXF23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <C29465B8.D29F%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>

I like this topic of palimpsest vs. pastiche vs. cento.  Bill, I think
you're on to something with that third one...

Bruce notes:

> Durrell likes layers of time and history; he sees
> the world in those terms, much like Cavafy. ...
> He looks at a landscape as though it were a
> palimpsest, where ruins are the partial erasures
> of time.

I've argued something similar in a piece about his short story "Oil for the
Saint," in which the 'palimpsest' of Corfu Town receives some cheeky
treatment (in a nutshell, I think Durrell refers quite carefully to the
complex political history of the island while presenting a narrative that
superficially caters to the reader who is unaware of this history).  The
Cavafy connection is also particularly important, in my opinion, since a
large part of the connection exists through allusion and citation -- those
are traits that dominate the aesthetic of Durrell's modernist forebears, but
which I think differ slightly through his interest and ties to the Greek
modernists.

For instance, Eliot's reference to Smyrna in "The Waste Land" is certainly
not political in the same way that Cavafy's reference to ancient military
defeat is political in "Those Who Fought for the Achaean League" (1922).
Likewise, Joyce's invocation of Odysseus is not politicized in the same way
that Seferis' references to Homer are.

I'd argue Durrell plays that game as well, and 'allusion' isn't quite a
strong enough word to discuss the style.  Pastiche is the typically
politicized term from the three Bill offers, and Durrell certainly does
stitch things together.  Yet, I don't find it satisfying nor would I like to
lump Durrell together with other pastiche writers, even though he may have
influenced some of them.

"Cento" seems to capture the flavour of what I believe Carol was after in
that article.  (By the way, I regard this as a 'classic' piece of Durrell
scholarship).  I think Carol used "palimpsest" for specific reasons, and I
still see them as valid (not the least of which being Durrell's composition
methods, the fact that he uses the word, and that it captures the flavour of
writing overtop with an original still visible beneath).  That said, here's
what I glean from the OED for Cento, followed by why I like this term better
(no need to read it all if you're skimming):

> 2. ?A composition formed by joining scraps from other
> authors? (J.). 1605 CAMDEN Rem. (1614) 14 Quilted..out of
> shreds of diuers Poets, such as Schollers do call a Cento.
> 1646 JER. TAYLOR Apol. Liturgy Pref. ?16 A very Cento
> composed out of the Massbook, Pontifical, Breviaries,
> Manuals, and Portuises of the Roman Church. 1730 A.
> GORDON Maffei's Amphith. 95 They affected a kind of
> Medley or Cento. 1882 FARRAR Early Chr. I. 554 A cento of
> Scripture phrases.
>
> Hence {sm}centoism (also {sm}centonism); cen{sm}tonical a.,
> of the nature of a cento; {sm}centoize v., to make into a
> cento. c1618 E. BOLTON Hypercr. in Haslewood Anc. Crit.
> Ess. (1811) II. 237 The vast vulgar Tomes procured for the
> most part by the husbandry of Printers..in their
> tumultuary and centonical writings, do seem to resemble
> some huge disproportionable Temple. 1838-9 HALLAM Hist.
> Lit. I. I. iii. ?80 Not too ambitiously chosen, nor in the
> manner called centonism. Ibid. viii. ?2 Tassoni has
> ridiculed its centonism, or studious incorporation of
> lines from Petrarch. 1842 MRS. BROWNING Grk. Chr. Poets
> 24 The tragedy is..a specimen of centoism, which is the
> adaptation of the phraseology of one work to the
> construction of another. Ibid. 54 Eudocia..thought good
> to extend her sceptre..over Homer's poems, and cento-ize
> them into an epic on the Saviour's life. 1859 Sat. Rev.
> VIII. 257/1 Warton seems to have imagined the text of
> Comus, Lycidas, etc., to have been little more than a
> centonism of borrowed thoughts.

What I like here is the awareness that previous text pre-date the one being
read.  The borrowings or allusions are more or less meant to be found even
though they form a cohesive whole with Durrell's stylistic stamp on them.
Is that stamp partially his ability to find a turn of phrase he liked and
jot it down in his notebooks?  Many (most?) authors work this way, but
Durrell likes to take scenarios with that turn of phrase and find a way to
stitch them in.

The other element implicit in both the cento and Durrell is that the
borrowed materials function as an allusion.  While it's true that some
allusions exist for their own sake, they typically infuse a new context or
potential reading on the work, one that derives from the previous text.  As
with the Cavafy vs. Eliot example I gave above, Eliot refers to Smyrna, but
we know the allusion is likely for the sake of cleverness.  But, for Cavafy,
the allusion to ancient materials and the fall of independent Greece is
meant to make us aware that he's writing in 1922 after the catastrophe in
Asia Minor (Smyrna).  Because of that original text to which he alludes, we
revise our vision of his poem.  Even in Eliot's opening allusion to Chaucer
in "The Waste land," this is not the case -- knowing that Chaucer is
celebrating Spring conflicts with Eliot's "dead earth," but we do know
suddenly infuse "The Waste Land" with joyful spiritual pilgrimages.

Durrell's use of other materials strikes me as more like Cavafy's, or at
least akin (and likely why Cavafy is the city poet rather than Eliot was in
Liddell's novel of Alexandria, Unreal City, which should strike a chord for
our earlier discussion of the epigraphs to Justine).  The Cento does this as
well, as defined in the OED.

> Tassoni [is that you Bruce?] has ridiculed its centonism,
> or studious incorporation of lines from Petrarch.

That sounds Durrellian...  But, when we find the references to Xenophon and
Aristophanes, do they not infuse a different view on the text?  Much like
the OED's discussion of centos from the Massbook, which would presumably
carry the religious context forward into a new narrative.

I should probably also give a note on why I would read it in accord with
Bill's suggestion.  As I'm always so fond of mentioning, I started with the
Quintet and came to the Quartet only after reading several other Durrell
books.  The Quintet makes this style quite overt, both internally and for
the book in my own hands.  That shaped my first approach to the Quartet.
While I didn't trace out the references in the way we're doing right now, I
was very much aware it was going on.

So, that takes me back to Bruce's objection:

> I'm not too keen on the other terms either, pastiche or
> palimpsest.  Why?  Primarily because I'm not aware of the
> other writers when reading Durrell.  His voice and style
> predominate, which may only mean he's very good at
> absorbing other influences and making them his own.  His
> unique poetry and vision is what holds everything together
> and gives it a Durrellian color.

This makes sense, insofar as Durrell is very good at putting his own
stylistic stamp on the borrowed materials (or finding materials that are
highly akin to this idiolect).  Yet, we can't reject them simply because
they do not stand out.  If I wanted to read religious scripture (I'm
thinking about the OED's examples of centos), I might not spot just how
close Christian materials are to the cult of Mithras or Zoroastrianism, or
other religions prevalent at that time (or even in a more acceptable sense,
modern Christians needn't see the ties to Judaism) -- that doesn't erase the
fact that the texts involved could be read as centos of other texts.

So, are these elements of the palimpsest (metaphorically), pastiche,
allusion, and cento all a part of the Durrellian style?  I'd say so.  I'd
even suggest they are an infectious element from the composition methods
through to the final text.  I don't think that's what happening in _Caesar's
Vast Ghost_, and Isabelle Keller will need to get involved to tell us about
that, but for the other texts I'd argue it is very much a part of the style.

Bill asks:

> But is Balthazar a palimpsest? Only metaphorically, I
> suggest. Justine is not really erased by Balthazar. The
> novels sit side by side chatting with each other on my
> shelf. Justine says one thing, and Baltazar says, "Yes,
> but." They are distinct and competing pictures.

Yes, but...  In the narrative world, they are one book scrawled atop the
other, hence the interlinear, plus Darley's additions and subtractions.  I
think the notion of the palimpsest works to describe the situation inside
the narrative quite well, and hence Durrell used it.  _Justine_ isn't
literally scraped away, but if falls away under the pen in _Balthazar_
becoming both a false construction and a submerged layer of textual
discovery.  It is only in our non-fictional world that the two books sit
side by side on the shelf or side by side inside the omnibus...

But, now back to my own books.

Cheers,
James




From slighcl at wfu.edu  Tue Jun 12 14:42:55 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:42:55 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Palimpsest versus Cento
In-Reply-To: <C29465B8.D29F%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>
References: <C29465B8.D29F%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <466F135F.40201@wfu.edu>

On 6/12/2007 5:01 PM, James Gifford wrote:

>I like this topic of palimpsest vs. pastiche vs. cento.  Bill, I think
>you're on to something with that third one...
>
>         CENTO
>         from The New Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics.
>         Preminger, Alex; Brogan, T. V. F. (co-eds); Warnke, Frank J.;
>         Hardison Jr, O. B.; Miner, Earl (assoc. eds).
>         Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1993. xlvi,
>         1383 p.
>         Copyright ? 1993 by Princeton University Press.
>
>         (Lat. "patchwork"). A verse composition made up of lines
>         selected from the work or works of some great poet(s) of the
>         past. Homer largely served this purpose in Gr. lit., ranging
>         from the adaptations by Trygaeus of various lines in the Iliad
>         and Odyssey reported by Aristophanes (Peace 1090-94) to the
>         Homerokentrones of the Byzantine period. Similarly, Virgil was
>         the most popular source for centos in later Roman times. The
>         oldest of those extant is the tragedy Medea by Hosidius Geta
>         (2d c. A.D.), while the C. nuptialis of Ausonius and the C.
>         Vergilianus of Proba (4th c. A.D.) are among others drawn from
>         his work. Ren. and later works of this kind included the It.
>         Petrarca spirituale (1536) and the Eng. Cicero princeps
>         (1608), which was a treatise on government compiled from
>         Cicero. Centos are still occasionally published, e.g. in the
>         first issue of The Formalist (1990), and are now almost
>         invariably humorous, the humor arising from both the clever
>         juxtaposition of famous lines into a new semantic matrix and
>         also recognition of the diversity of their sources.
>
>         J. O. Delepierre, Tableau de la litt. du centon chez les
>         anciens et chez les modernes, 2 v. (1874-75)
>         R. Lamacchia, "Dall'arte allusiva al centone," Atene e Roma
>         n.s. 3 (1958)
>         "C.," Oxford Cl. Dict., 2d ed. (1972)
>         T. Augarde, Oxford Guide to Word Games (1984).
>
>         Robert J. Getty
>         T. V. F. Brogan 


Forgive the repetition if Bill has already posted the Princeton 
definition.  The /cento /is obviously not a new-coinage.  Aside from the 
classical and renaissance practice, the cento had a late eighteenth and 
nineteenth century boom--Chatterton, Browning, Pater, and Wilde 
variously claimed or have been cited as using the technique.  Just look 
into Wilde's "Pen, Pencil, & Poison," where most of Wilde's elaboration 
on the great forger is in itself "plagiarized."  Indeed, the stitching 
together of extant texts is one of the harbingers of 
"modernity"--wherever one hunts for the appearance of that snark.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Tue Jun 12 17:08:17 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:08:17 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- more questions
In-Reply-To: <466F135F.40201@wfu.edu>
References: <C29465B8.D29F%odos.fanourios@gmail.com> <466F135F.40201@wfu.edu>
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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Tue Jun 12 17:47:58 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:47:58 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- more questions
In-Reply-To: <20070613000829.OIXP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <C29465B8.D29F%odos.fanourios@gmail.com> <466F135F.40201@wfu.edu>
	<20070613000829.OIXP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <466F3EBE.8080309@wfu.edu>



On 6/12/2007 8:08 PM, william godshalk wrote:

> I will offer a challenge. In the past few weeks, we have found that 
> some of the material that Durrell uses on pages 177-179 is taken from 
> Rex Warner's translation of Xenophon.
>
> (1) Before learning this, did any of you find this passage in 
> /Justine/ different from the surrounding material? 

*Yes.  Always.  Without a doubt.  Some of my favorite prose in 
/Justine/.  And I enjoy your discovery of the Xenophon source because I 
was reading /Justine /and the /Anabasis /at the same early age.  
(Penguin gave me both!)  Just think, the hidden connections between 
those books were gestating all these twenty-something years, waiting for 
Bill Godshalk to midwife.*

> Did anyone think that Durrell was here appropriating material from 
> another writer?

*No.  I had at most thought that Durrell was adopting a tone, a style, a 
mask.*

> (2) I imagine that some members of this list didn't pay strict 
> attention to this find. If you didn't, could you read these pages and 
> distinguish between Durrell's prose and Warner's? In what ways are 
> they different in style?

*I paid strict attention to your find.  Even on a train passing through 
the Belgian countryside.  Glow-worm express.*

>
> (3) If you feel that Durrell integrated Warner's prose into his prose, 
> could you explain the integration process? What does Durrell add, 
> remove, or modify to make Warner into Durrell?

   1. *"Their enemies were of a breath-taking elegance"  -- That is pure
      Durrell and is a kind of acknowledgment of what he is up to. 
      Although much of the description of armour &c. comes from Warner's
      translation of Xenophon, Durrell begins by glossing Warner,
      copying down Warner's words and glossing them, critiquing them,
      and elevating them through his imaginative engagement.*
   2. *"With a column on the march memory becomes an industry,
      manufacturing dreams which common ills unite in a community of
      ideas based upon privation."  -- Durrell loves opening a paragraph
      with this sort of eighteenth-century period--pithy, confident
      statements of knowledge that he delivers to an audience expected
      to nod in agreement.  Think about /Prospero's Cell/:  "It is a
      sophism to imagine that there is any strict dividing line between
      the waking world and the world of dreams."  World-wisdom.*
   3. *"He opened memory to his consciousness royally, prodigally, as
      one might open a major artery." -- That would have to be Durrell. 
      In /Justine /and in the poetry arteries and veins abound,
      especially in conection with thoughts of impending suicide. 
      Antony, Cleo, the whole sick crew.*

> (4) Or would you argue that Durrell knew that Warner's style was like 
> his own, and D would have to change very little to integrate Warner's 
> prose?

*
I don't know.  I have been revisiting the Warner translation on Amazon, 
which offers a concordance, an index of unusual phrases and a searchable 
text.  I will tell you if Durrell's ghost confesses to my cast of the 
digital planchette.*

C&c.

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Tue Jun 12 18:15:36 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:15:36 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- some answers
In-Reply-To: <466F3EBE.8080309@wfu.edu>
References: <C29465B8.D29F%odos.fanourios@gmail.com> <466F135F.40201@wfu.edu>
	<20070613000829.OIXP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<466F3EBE.8080309@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <20070613011538.INO23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From slighcl at wfu.edu  Tue Jun 12 18:40:35 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:40:35 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- some answers
In-Reply-To: <20070613011538.INO23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <C29465B8.D29F%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>
	<466F135F.40201@wfu.edu>	<20070613000829.OIXP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>	<466F3EBE.8080309@wfu.edu>
	<20070613011538.INO23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <466F4B13.6070201@wfu.edu>

On 6/12/2007 9:15 PM, william godshalk wrote:

> Thank you, Charles. Very nice answers. Very good.
>
> Regarding "veins," Durrell changes Eliot's "blue nailed" to "Her 
> *blue*-*veined* phthisic hands, etc. (p. 18). However, as you well 
> know, "veins" are mentioned seven times and "arteries" three times in 
> /Justine/. That's ten all together. They don't exactly "abound" here.

 From the poetry written in the same vein:

MATAPAN  [from Collected Poems: 1931-1974 (1985), Faber and Faber]

...*opened in him like a vein*, Pushed clear on the tides...

LEECHES   [from Collected Poems: 1931-1974 (1985), Faber and Faber]

...on a thigh Or *temporal vein *will settle with a sigh...

ACROPOLIS [from Collected Poems: 1931-1974 (1985), Faber and Faber]

...fresh spring *empties like a vein*    no children spit on their...

SOLANGE  [from Collected Poems: 1931-1974 (1985), Faber and Faber]

...dustbins *Needles seeking the iron vein* Astrology's damp syringe    
a woman...

SIXTIES  [from Collected Poems: 1931-1974 (1985), Faber and Faber]

...out. *A power-cut in a vein *To abruptly caption stone, And...

FACES   [from Collected Poems: 1931-1974 (1985), Faber and Faber]

...The sliding gristle, coil of *artery*: All, all, delicate, nimble, 
wired,...



-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Tue Jun 12 18:43:20 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:43:20 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- in the vein
In-Reply-To: <466F4B13.6070201@wfu.edu>
References: <C29465B8.D29F%odos.fanourios@gmail.com> <466F135F.40201@wfu.edu>
	<20070613000829.OIXP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<466F3EBE.8080309@wfu.edu>
	<20070613011538.INO23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<466F4B13.6070201@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <20070613014402.JZPU7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Tue Jun 12 18:54:42 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:54:42 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Justine and Richard II
In-Reply-To: <466F4B13.6070201@wfu.edu>
References: <C29465B8.D29F%odos.fanourios@gmail.com> <466F135F.40201@wfu.edu>
	<20070613000829.OIXP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<466F3EBE.8080309@wfu.edu>
	<20070613011538.INO23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<466F4B13.6070201@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <20070613015534.KBDX7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Tue Jun 12 23:52:03 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:52:03 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- more questions
In-Reply-To: <466F3EBE.8080309@wfu.edu>
References: <C29465B8.D29F%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>
	<466F135F.40201@wfu.edu>	<20070613000829.OIXP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<466F3EBE.8080309@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <466F9413.9060602@interdesign.fr>

Hello everyone,
Some of you must have numeric versions of these 
texts to be able to so easily find "words", etc... 
It is very difficult for me to follow all of your 
posts; Quantity and contents an I don't have 
access to the same material.

Have you ever suddenly become aware of something 
that you had never taken any notice of before and 
suddenly everywhere you turned, everything you 
did, "it was there"? This can happen for an idea, 
a word, a colour, a phrase, a concept. We all live 
in a moveable environment - and it is moving 
faster and faster - some of us are more or less 
"sensitive" to it.

This inevitably happened to LD also (very, very, 
sensitive), and became part of his writing.

I recently told a woman (no lewd comments please) 
that I loved "her from the bottom of my heart".
I think I had never used that expression in my 
life and since, everywhere I turn it comes up.

Even our new french pr?sident used it in his 
inaugural speech and last sunday I was showing 
some visitors around; we were in a Paris cemetery; 
discovered Maupassant's grave, and there on an 
enamelled plate was that expression again.

Probably, I picked it up unconsciously and used 
it. Surely this is a natural thing to do and 
cannot be called "plagarism", or copying, or 
anything done on purpose. When I read a book, I 
often note phrases that impress me or that make me 
think; not sure what I do with them after that. I 
have piles of little cards and often I don't know 
what know anymore what their source was - and it 
doesn't really matter. By the way I am neither a 
teacher nor a writer; I am a designer - I draw, 
today on a computer: I'm just just someone 
interested in ideas, like many people!

Marc Piel

slighcl wrote:

> 
> 
> On 6/12/2007 8:08 PM, william godshalk wrote:
> 
>> I will offer a challenge. In the past few weeks, we have found that 
>> some of the material that Durrell uses on pages 177-179 is taken from 
>> Rex Warner's translation of Xenophon.
>>
>> (1) Before learning this, did any of you find this passage in Justine 
>> different from the surrounding material? 
> 
> Yes.  Always.  Without a doubt.  Some of my favorite prose in Justine.  
> And I enjoy your discovery of the Xenophon source because I was reading 
> Justine and the Anabasis at the same early age.  (Penguin gave me 
> both!)  Just think, the hidden connections between those books were 
> gestating all these twenty-something years, waiting for Bill Godshalk to 
> midwife.
> 
>> Did anyone think that Durrell was here appropriating material from 
>> another writer?
> 
> No.  I had at most thought that Durrell was adopting a tone, a style, a 
> mask.
> 
>> (2) I imagine that some members of this list didn't pay strict 
>> attention to this find. If you didn't, could you read these pages and 
>> distinguish between Durrell's prose and Warner's? In what ways are 
>> they different in style?
> 
> I paid strict attention to your find.  Even on a train passing through 
> the Belgian countryside.  Glow-worm express.
> 
>>
>> (3) If you feel that Durrell integrated Warner's prose into his prose, 
>> could you explain the integration process? What does Durrell add, 
>> remove, or modify to make Warner into Durrell?
> 
>    1. "Their enemies were of a breath-taking elegance"  -- That is pure
>       Durrell and is a kind of acknowledgment of what he is up to. 
>       Although much of the description of armour &c. comes from Warner's
>       translation of Xenophon, Durrell begins by glossing Warner,
>       copying down Warner's words and glossing them, critiquing them,
>       and elevating them through his imaginative engagement.
>    2. "With a column on the march memory becomes an industry,
>       manufacturing dreams which common ills unite in a community of
>       ideas based upon privation."  -- Durrell loves opening a paragraph
>       with this sort of eighteenth-century period--pithy, confident
>       statements of knowledge that he delivers to an audience expected
>       to nod in agreement.  Think about Prospero's Cell:  "It is a
>       sophism to imagine that there is any strict dividing line between
>       the waking world and the world of dreams."  World-wisdom.
>    3. "He opened memory to his consciousness royally, prodigally, as one
>       might open a major artery." -- That would have to be Durrell.  In
>       Justine and in the poetry arteries and veins abound, especially in
>       conection with thoughts of impending suicide.  Antony, Cleo, the
>       whole sick crew.
> 
>> (4) Or would you argue that Durrell knew that Warner's style was like 
>> his own, and D would have to change very little to integrate Warner's 
>> prose?
> 
> 
> I don't know.  I have been revisiting the Warner translation on Amazon, 
> which offers a concordance, an index of unusual phrases and a searchable 
> text.  I will tell you if Durrell's ghost confesses to my cast of the 
> digital planchette.
> 
> C&c.
> 
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From Smithchamberlin at aol.com  Wed Jun 13 07:04:26 2007
From: Smithchamberlin at aol.com (Smithchamberlin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:04:26 EDT
Subject: [ilds] The real behind the fictional people and situations
Message-ID: <d18.c797dbc.33a1536a@aol.com>

 
For those interested in such things I suggest a thorough reading of Guenter  
Grass's memoir "Beim Haeuten der Zwiebel" in which he notes dozens of examples 
 of people and events he experienced that he used in his various fictions.
        Brewster
 
In a message dated 5/20/2007 3:00:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca writes:

Message:  39
Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 18:40:12 +0100
From: Michael Haag  <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [ilds] Arnauti as  real
To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>,  ilds at lists.uvic.ca
Message-ID:  <2918C3D7-06F9-11DC-9409-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

My answer is that when I  first Durrell, which was in the form of The 
Alexandria Quartet, I felt  that behind many of the characters there 
were real people.  That was  probably just the effect of Durrell writing 
in the first person.   Nevertheless that sense stayed with me.  In time 
I discovered that a  great deal of Durrell's creations in the Quartet -- 
characters, settings,  events -- were based on or in some way owed their 
origin to real  characters, settings and events.  There is nothing 
surprising about  this.  Writers do it all the time.  And of course what 
writers  also do is base creations on themselves.  I do have the feeling 
that  Durrell is always writing about his world and himself, and that he 
is  desperately trying to escape both.  And  failing.

:Michael



On Sunday, May 20, 2007, at  05:11  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:

> On 5/20/07, Charles Sligh  asks,
>>
>> But I have a question for you, Sumantra:   How did you first realize 
>> that
>> Arnauti and Purswarden  were not "real"?  That question is serious, and
>> the answer  could get to the bottom of the "tricks" that Durrell is "up
>> to" in  his books.
>
>                * * * * *
>
> My answer.   At the time of my primal event with M. Durrell (not Dr. 
> Durrell), age  sixteen of my youth, I never thought any "person" in his 
> book was  real.  They were all fictional characters.  I naively assumed  
> then that fiction was by definition unreal.  Now, of course,  after 
> discussions on the List, I know that none of us is  real.
>
> Bruce
>
>  _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing  list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>  https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>



------------------------------

Message:  40
Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 11:15:20 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: Bruce Redwine  <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [ilds] Arnauti as real as  Durrell
To: Durrell list  <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Message-ID:
<31228166.1179684920729.JavaMail.root at elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 5/20/07, William  Godshalk writes:
>
>Only the City is real. But the distinction  between a fictive 
>character and a dead person is interesting to  consider over a glass 
>of choice wine. Neither is around to define  himself or herself. The 
>fictive character exists on paper, and the  dead person now only 
>exists on paper (give or take some ashes). Well,  paper or some other 
>recording material. Their parts can however be  acted by actors.
>
>So Durrell and Arnauti are equally  nonexistent.
>
>Bill (lookin for a fight)

* * * * *

I'll just swing a couple of wild punches and jump out  of the ring (today is 
afternoon High Tea with a bunch of lawyers, ugh).   This talk about real and 
not real is very deep water, and we probably need Dr.  Durrell to throw out a 
life preserver.  The "many fictions of ourselves,"  or some such (Jamie can 
provide the proper quotation and citation to the  poetry) -- that's my starting 
point.  And since we're playing in  Durrell's Universe, solipsistic or 
otherwise, we might as well play his game  and live in the "kingdom of your 
imagination" (Clea, end of "novel").   It's utterly futile, in my opinion, to argue, 
with Scholastic seriousness,  about what is real and not with respect to LD's 
fiction and his life.   Even as a pimply sixteen year old I knew that Durrell's 
"Alexandria" only  truly existed in his head.  I willingly entered that world 
and welcomed  the seduction.  Moreover, through our discussions, we are adding 
to the  Master's fictive world.  He always knew that.  This is not !
to  say that a biographer, like Michael Haag, can't do the great research  
involved, point out the many connections between fact and fiction, show all  the 
ramifications and permutations thereof, and then provide an explanation  for 
all those interconnections.  Yes, he can.  That's fascinating  and enjoyable 
-- an art in itself, a genre unto itself.  But it's always  going to be some 
kind of fiction.  M. Durrell will always remain elusive  and keep some part of 
himself to himself.  He will surely triumph in the  end.  End of story.

Bruce








************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jun 13 09:41:57 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 09:41:57 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- more questions
Message-ID: <28917293.1181752917786.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jun 13 09:48:09 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 09:48:09 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- more questions
Message-ID: <18055892.1181753290036.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Marc, I like your post.  Can you provide the French for "from bottom of my heart?"  And do you recall the French on Maupassant's grave?

Merci,

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Marc Piel <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
>Sent: Jun 12, 2007 11:52 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- more questions
>
>Hello everyone,
>Some of you must have numeric versions of these 
>texts to be able to so easily find "words", etc... 
>It is very difficult for me to follow all of your 
>posts; Quantity and contents an I don't have 
>access to the same material.
>
>Have you ever suddenly become aware of something 
>that you had never taken any notice of before and 
>suddenly everywhere you turned, everything you 
>did, "it was there"? This can happen for an idea, 
>a word, a colour, a phrase, a concept. We all live 
>in a moveable environment - and it is moving 
>faster and faster - some of us are more or less 
>"sensitive" to it.
>
>This inevitably happened to LD also (very, very, 
>sensitive), and became part of his writing.
>
>I recently told a woman (no lewd comments please) 
>that I loved "her from the bottom of my heart".
>I think I had never used that expression in my 
>life and since, everywhere I turn it comes up.
>
>Even our new french pr?sident used it in his 
>inaugural speech and last sunday I was showing 
>some visitors around; we were in a Paris cemetery; 
>discovered Maupassant's grave, and there on an 
>enamelled plate was that expression again.
>
>Probably, I picked it up unconsciously and used 
>it. Surely this is a natural thing to do and 
>cannot be called "plagarism", or copying, or 
>anything done on purpose. When I read a book, I 
>often note phrases that impress me or that make me 
>think; not sure what I do with them after that. I 
>have piles of little cards and often I don't know 
>what know anymore what their source was - and it 
>doesn't really matter. By the way I am neither a 
>teacher nor a writer; I am a designer - I draw, 
>today on a computer: I'm just just someone 
>interested in ideas, like many people!
>
>Marc Piel
>
>slighcl wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> On 6/12/2007 8:08 PM, william godshalk wrote:
>> 
>>> I will offer a challenge. In the past few weeks, we have found that 
>>> some of the material that Durrell uses on pages 177-179 is taken from 
>>> Rex Warner's translation of Xenophon.
>>>
>>> (1) Before learning this, did any of you find this passage in Justine 
>>> different from the surrounding material? 
>> 
>> Yes.  Always.  Without a doubt.  Some of my favorite prose in Justine.  
>> And I enjoy your discovery of the Xenophon source because I was reading 
>> Justine and the Anabasis at the same early age.  (Penguin gave me 
>> both!)  Just think, the hidden connections between those books were 
>> gestating all these twenty-something years, waiting for Bill Godshalk to 
>> midwife.
>> 
>>> Did anyone think that Durrell was here appropriating material from 
>>> another writer?
>> 
>> No.  I had at most thought that Durrell was adopting a tone, a style, a 
>> mask.
>> 
>>> (2) I imagine that some members of this list didn't pay strict 
>>> attention to this find. If you didn't, could you read these pages and 
>>> distinguish between Durrell's prose and Warner's? In what ways are 
>>> they different in style?
>> 
>> I paid strict attention to your find.  Even on a train passing through 
>> the Belgian countryside.  Glow-worm express.
>> 
>>>
>>> (3) If you feel that Durrell integrated Warner's prose into his prose, 
>>> could you explain the integration process? What does Durrell add, 
>>> remove, or modify to make Warner into Durrell?
>> 
>>    1. "Their enemies were of a breath-taking elegance"  -- That is pure
>>       Durrell and is a kind of acknowledgment of what he is up to. 
>>       Although much of the description of armour &c. comes from Warner's
>>       translation of Xenophon, Durrell begins by glossing Warner,
>>       copying down Warner's words and glossing them, critiquing them,
>>       and elevating them through his imaginative engagement.
>>    2. "With a column on the march memory becomes an industry,
>>       manufacturing dreams which common ills unite in a community of
>>       ideas based upon privation."  -- Durrell loves opening a paragraph
>>       with this sort of eighteenth-century period--pithy, confident
>>       statements of knowledge that he delivers to an audience expected
>>       to nod in agreement.  Think about Prospero's Cell:  "It is a
>>       sophism to imagine that there is any strict dividing line between
>>       the waking world and the world of dreams."  World-wisdom.
>>    3. "He opened memory to his consciousness royally, prodigally, as one
>>       might open a major artery." -- That would have to be Durrell.  In
>>       Justine and in the poetry arteries and veins abound, especially in
>>       conection with thoughts of impending suicide.  Antony, Cleo, the
>>       whole sick crew.
>> 
>>> (4) Or would you argue that Durrell knew that Warner's style was like 
>>> his own, and D would have to change very little to integrate Warner's 
>>> prose?
>> 
>> 
>> I don't know.  I have been revisiting the Warner translation on Amazon, 
>> which offers a concordance, an index of unusual phrases and a searchable 
>> text.  I will tell you if Durrell's ghost confesses to my cast of the 
>> digital planchette.
>> 
>> C&c.
>> 
>> -- 
>> **********************
>> Charles L. Sligh
>> Department of English
>> Wake Forest University
>> slighcl at wfu.edu
>> **********************
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Wed Jun 13 10:02:32 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:02:32 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- more questions
In-Reply-To: <466F9413.9060602@interdesign.fr>
References: <C29465B8.D29F%odos.fanourios@gmail.com> <466F135F.40201@wfu.edu>
	<20070613000829.OIXP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<466F3EBE.8080309@wfu.edu> <466F9413.9060602@interdesign.fr>
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jun 13 10:03:50 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:03:50 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] The real behind the fictional people and situations
Message-ID: <23610738.1181754231137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I guess at some point the List should make an attempt to define what is real and not real in fiction.  In my view, basing a character on a real person, the technique of a roman a clef, does not make that character "real."  My view, however, is probably extreme.  I tend to think anything mediated through an author's brain and which he labels fiction, no matter how factual in basis, is still fiction.  James Joyce took great pains to make the Dublin of Ulysses "real."  I still call it fiction.  Lawrence Durrell, as Michael Haag shows, also took similar pains with representing the people and places of Alexandria.  I still call that fiction.  This seems self-evident to me, but maybe not.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Smithchamberlin at aol.com
>Sent: Jun 13, 2007 7:04 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] The real behind the fictional people and situations
>
> 
>For those interested in such things I suggest a thorough reading of Guenter  
>Grass's memoir "Beim Haeuten der Zwiebel" in which he notes dozens of examples 
> of people and events he experienced that he used in his various fictions.
>        Brewster
> 
>In a message dated 5/20/2007 3:00:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
>ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca writes:
>
>Message:  39
>Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 18:40:12 +0100
>From: Michael Haag  <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Arnauti as  real
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>,  ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Message-ID:  <2918C3D7-06F9-11DC-9409-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
>Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>My answer is that when I  first Durrell, which was in the form of The 
>Alexandria Quartet, I felt  that behind many of the characters there 
>were real people.  That was  probably just the effect of Durrell writing 
>in the first person.   Nevertheless that sense stayed with me.  In time 
>I discovered that a  great deal of Durrell's creations in the Quartet -- 
>characters, settings,  events -- were based on or in some way owed their 
>origin to real  characters, settings and events.  There is nothing 
>surprising about  this.  Writers do it all the time.  And of course what 
>writers  also do is base creations on themselves.  I do have the feeling 
>that  Durrell is always writing about his world and himself, and that he 
>is  desperately trying to escape both.  And  failing.
>
>:Michael
>


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Wed Jun 13 10:17:56 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:17:56 -0400
Subject: [ilds] The real behind the fictional people and situations
In-Reply-To: <23610738.1181754231137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.
	sa.earthlink.net>
References: <23610738.1181754231137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070613171758.EUHO23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jun 13 10:37:56 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:37:56 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] the genuine Durrell voice, what is it?
Message-ID: <25404481.1181756276931.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Bill, I would not define authorial "voice" in this way.  Voice is word choice, diction, but much more than that.  It is the distinctive personality behind the diction.  Rather than list words such as phthisic, usufruct, desuetude, exiguous, palimpsest, uxorious, simulacrum, muniments, and the hundreds like these, usually Greek or Latinate, I would ask what kind of personality enjoys this kind of vocabulary?  What is he or she trying to achieve, aside from a love of exotic words, such as Poe also had?

Bruce


-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jun 12, 2007 12:14 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca, Durrell list <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>Subject: the genuine Durrell voice, what is it?
>
>His voice and stylepredominate, which may only mean he's very good at absorbing otherinfluences and making them his own.  His unique poetry and vision iswhat holds everything together and gives it a Durrellian color. 
>MacDonald P. Jackson in his book Defining Shakespeare (p. 5) notesthat some choices in language usage are national and regional, but"we all have purely personal preferences as well." Mac goes onto analyze Shakespeare's ideolect. 
>
>I imagine that "voice" in a novel is a matter of language use,e.g. words that are rarely used, words that are regularly used,constructions that are seldom used or regularly used or never used,adjective and adverb use. (Note that I do not use "etc." after"e.g." Many American do.) 
>
>So let's get down to business and determine what the Durrellian style is,as it were. It's easy to generalize ("his sentences flow" -- astudent favorite, but they use it for every author). How can you tell (onthe micro-level) what has been written by Durrell and what has beenwritten by Roger Angell? And why? 
>


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Wed Jun 13 10:40:53 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:40:53 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- more questions
In-Reply-To: <28917293.1181752917786.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.
	sa.earthlink.net>
References: <28917293.1181752917786.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jun 13 10:52:56 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:52:56 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Balthazar as palimpsest
Message-ID: <7375355.1181757176959.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Interesting.  I standby Balthazar.  With the second novel in the Quartet, I think Durrell realized he was onto something big and definitive and was then full of the energy necessary for that great project.  Would we like Justine as much if it weren't for the other three novels that followed?  I doubt it.  It's easy to like the first bloom of anything.  Many prefer Wordsworth's 1799 Prelude for that very reason.  I don't.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: James Gifford <odos.fanourios at gmail.com>
>Sent: Jun 12, 2007 1:58 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] palimpsest
>
>Two points for Bruce:
>
>> (Balthazar, by the way, has always been my favorite
>> novel in the Quartet, perhaps for this very aspect,
>> along with the introduction of Pursewarden's suicide.)
>
>Just as an aside, I'm editing Henry Miller & Herbert Read's correspondence
>just now, and Read takes the opposite stance.  He describes the Quartet as
>they only kind of fiction he can bear reading anymore, but thinks Durrell
>made a mistake by revising Justine in Balthazar.  He clearly considered
>Justine the superior novel.  I would have greatly disagreed with that the
>first few times I read the Quartet, but now I wonder...
>

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jun 13 11:03:08 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 11:03:08 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] the genuine Durrell voice, what is it?
Message-ID: <4810993.1181757788463.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Bill, yes, you're right, I want to put Durrell on the couch.  We're back to the old argument about authorial intentions, which I believe it's worthwhile and even possible, in some limited way, to understand.  This is what I find most interesting.  I see Michael Haag working in this direction, but I'll let him speak for himself.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jun 13, 2007 10:53 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: the genuine Durrell voice, what is it?
>
>At 01:37 PM 6/13/2007, you wrote:
>Bill, I would not defineauthorial "voice" in this way.  Voice is word choice,diction, but much more than that.  It is the distinctive personalitybehind the diction.  Rather than list words such as phthisic,usufruct, desuetude, exiguous, palimpsest, uxorious, simulacrum,muniments, and the hundreds like these, usually Greek or Latinate, Iwould ask what kind of personality enjoys this kind of vocabulary? What is he or she trying to achieve, aside from a love of exotic words,such as Poe also had?
>But as you amply point out, word usage is a good part of style or"voice." But when it comes to the kind of personality thatenjoys using this vocabulary [note that I'm appropriating your wordshere], how can we tell? D no longer exists, so we can't get him on thecouch for the fifty minute hour. Perhaps D was insecure and wanted toparade his vocabulary as a way of authenticating his writing. Look, Iuse words that you have to look up. 
>
>Of course, even if we got D on the couch, we would only get wordsfrom him. We would then have to interpret those words -- just as weinterpret words on the page or screen.
>
>Bill
>
>***************************************
>W. L.Godshalk          *
>Department ofEnglish         *
>University ofCincinnati           Stellar disorder  *
>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>513-281-5927
>***************************************


From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Wed Jun 13 10:56:51 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 19:56:51 +0200
Subject: [ilds] The real behind the fictional people and situations
In-Reply-To: <23610738.1181754231137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <23610738.1181754231137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <46702FE3.1050104@interdesign.fr>

Did he not have someone say in the AQ "that we all 
live selective fictions"???
Marc Piel

Bruce Redwine wrote:

> I guess at some point the List should make an attempt to define what is real and not real in fiction.  In my view, basing a character on a real person, the technique of a roman a clef, does not make that character "real."  My view, however, is probably extreme.  I tend to think anything mediated through an author's brain and which he labels fiction, no matter how factual in basis, is still fiction.  James Joyce took great pains to make the Dublin of Ulysses "real."  I still call it fiction.  Lawrence Durrell, as Michael Haag shows, also took similar pains with representing the people and places of Alexandria.  I still call that fiction.  This seems self-evident to me, but maybe not.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
>>From: Smithchamberlin at aol.com
>>Sent: Jun 13, 2007 7:04 AM
>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Subject: [ilds] The real behind the fictional people and situations
>>
>>
>>For those interested in such things I suggest a thorough reading of Guenter  
>>Grass's memoir "Beim Haeuten der Zwiebel" in which he notes dozens of examples 
>>of people and events he experienced that he used in his various fictions.
>>       Brewster
>>
>>In a message dated 5/20/2007 3:00:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
>>ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca writes:
>>
>>Message:  39
>>Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 18:40:12 +0100
>>From: Michael Haag  <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Arnauti as  real
>>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>,  ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>Message-ID:  <2918C3D7-06F9-11DC-9409-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
>>Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>>
>>My answer is that when I  first Durrell, which was in the form of The 
>>Alexandria Quartet, I felt  that behind many of the characters there 
>>were real people.  That was  probably just the effect of Durrell writing 
>>in the first person.   Nevertheless that sense stayed with me.  In time 
>>I discovered that a  great deal of Durrell's creations in the Quartet -- 
>>characters, settings,  events -- were based on or in some way owed their 
>>origin to real  characters, settings and events.  There is nothing 
>>surprising about  this.  Writers do it all the time.  And of course what 
>>writers  also do is base creations on themselves.  I do have the feeling 
>>that  Durrell is always writing about his world and himself, and that he 
>>is  desperately trying to escape both.  And  failing.
>>
>>:Michael
>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 

From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Wed Jun 13 11:01:17 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:01:17 +0200
Subject: [ilds] The real behind the fictional people and situations
In-Reply-To: <20070613171758.EUHO23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <23610738.1181754231137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<20070613171758.EUHO23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <467030ED.2090301@interdesign.fr>

I entirely agree with Michael. There are three 
components in the AQ, LD himself in different 
disguises, people he knew and met, and the other 
personality is the city; I even spent a week there 
walking in the footsteps of the AQ. It is LD 
sensitivity and his creativity that makes it all 
so real!
Marc Piel

william godshalk wrote:

>> I still call it fiction.  Lawrence Durrell, as Michael Haag shows, 
>> also took similar pains with representing the people and places of 
>> Alexandria.  I still call that fiction.  This seems self-evident to 
>> me, but maybe not.
>>
>> writes Bruce.
> 
> 
> Yes, no matter what, fictional characters are merely words on paper or 
> screen. I wrote the following some years ago:
> 
>      Literary characters are merely words (or, to be precise, certain 
> marks that some readers interpret as words) in a certain order on a page 
> or, nowadays, on a computer screen. Clearly, literary characters do not 
> have the same ontological status that we do. And yet we humans talk 
> about literary characters as if they were living creatures with 
> volition, agency, and a full complement of human attributes. Borges can 
> write, and we can understand: "Vanquished by reality, by Spain, Don 
> Quixote died in his native village in the year 1614. He was survived but 
> a short time by Miguel de Cervantes." We know that literary characters 
> do not exist as humans exist, and yet we write about them as if they do. 
> How do we account for this apparent double-think?
> 
> I realize that this paragraph does not exactly address Bruce's comment, 
> but it may add to the debate.
> 
> Bill
> ***************************************
> W. L. Godshalk           *
> Department of English         *
> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> 513-281-5927
> ***************************************
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Wed Jun 13 11:03:46 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:03:46 +0200
Subject: [ilds] The real behind the fictional people and situations
In-Reply-To: <d18.c797dbc.33a1536a@aol.com>
References: <d18.c797dbc.33a1536a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <46703182.2080508@interdesign.fr>

Very interesting. I like Gunter Grass very much 
also; I have always felt that a writer must have 
lived at least a part of what he wrote in order to 
write well!
Marc Piel

Smithchamberlin at aol.com wrote:

> For those interested in such things I suggest a thorough reading of 
> Guenter Grass's memoir "Beim Haeuten der Zwiebel" in which he notes 
> dozens of examples of people and events he experienced that he used in 
> his various fictions.
>         Brewster
>  
> In a message dated 5/20/2007 3:00:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca writes:
> 
>     Message: 39
>     Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 18:40:12 +0100
>     From: Michael Haag <michaelhaag at btinternet.com>
>     Subject: Re: [ilds] Arnauti as real
>     To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>     Message-ID: <2918C3D7-06F9-11DC-9409-000393B1149C at btinternet.com>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> 
>     My answer is that when I first Durrell, which was in the form of The
>     Alexandria Quartet, I felt that behind many of the characters there
>     were real people.  That was probably just the effect of Durrell writing
>     in the first person.  Nevertheless that sense stayed with me.  In time
>     I discovered that a great deal of Durrell's creations in the Quartet --
>     characters, settings, events -- were based on or in some way owed their
>     origin to real characters, settings and events.  There is nothing
>     surprising about this.  Writers do it all the time.  And of course what
>     writers also do is base creations on themselves.  I do have the feeling
>     that Durrell is always writing about his world and himself, and that he
>     is desperately trying to escape both.  And failing.
> 
>     :Michael
> 
> 
> 
>     On Sunday, May 20, 2007, at 05:11  pm, Bruce Redwine wrote:
> 
>      > On 5/20/07, Charles Sligh asks,
>      >>
>      >> But I have a question for you, Sumantra:  How did you first realize
>      >> that
>      >> Arnauti and Purswarden were not "real"?  That question is
>     serious, and
>      >> the answer could get to the bottom of the "tricks" that Durrell
>     is "up
>      >> to" in his books.
>      >
>      >                                              * * * * *
>      >
>      > My answer.  At the time of my primal event with M. Durrell (not Dr.
>      > Durrell), age sixteen of my youth, I never thought any "person"
>     in his
>      > book was real.  They were all fictional characters.  I naively
>     assumed
>      > then that fiction was by definition unreal.  Now, of course, after
>      > discussions on the List, I know that none of us is real.
>      >
>      > Bruce
>      >
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > ILDS mailing list
>      > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>      > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>      >
> 
> 
> 
>     ------------------------------
> 
>     Message: 40
>     Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 11:15:20 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
>     From: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>     Subject: Re: [ilds] Arnauti as real as Durrell
>     To: Durrell list <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
>     Message-ID:
>        
>     <31228166.1179684920729.JavaMail.root at elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>        
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
>     On 5/20/07, William Godshalk writes:
>      >
>      >Only the City is real. But the distinction between a fictive
>      >character and a dead person is interesting to consider over a glass
>      >of choice wine. Neither is around to define himself or herself. The
>      >fictive character exists on paper, and the dead person now only
>      >exists on paper (give or take some ashes). Well, paper or some other
>      >recording material. Their parts can however be acted by actors.
>      >
>      >So Durrell and Arnauti are equally nonexistent.
>      >
>      >Bill (lookin for a fight)
> 
>                                 * * * * *
> 
>     I'll just swing a couple of wild punches and jump out of the ring
>     (today is afternoon High Tea with a bunch of lawyers, ugh).  This
>     talk about real and not real is very deep water, and we probably
>     need Dr. Durrell to throw out a life preserver.  The "many fictions
>     of ourselves," or some such (Jamie can provide the proper quotation
>     and citation to the poetry) -- that's my starting point.  And since
>     we're playing in Durrell's Universe, solipsistic or otherwise, we
>     might as well play his game and live in the "kingdom of your
>     imagination" (Clea, end of "novel").  It's utterly futile, in my
>     opinion, to argue, with Scholastic seriousness, about what is real
>     and not with respect to LD's fiction and his life.  Even as a pimply
>     sixteen year old I knew that Durrell's "Alexandria" only truly
>     existed in his head.  I willingly entered that world and welcomed
>     the seduction.  Moreover, through our discussions, we are adding to
>     the Master's fictive world.  He always knew that.  This is not !
>     to say that a biographer, like Michael Haag, can't do the great
>     research involved, point out the many connections between fact and
>     fiction, show all the ramifications and permutations thereof, and
>     then provide an explanation for all those interconnections.  Yes, he
>     can.  That's fascinating and enjoyable -- an art in itself, a genre
>     unto itself.  But it's always going to be some kind of fiction.  M.
>     Durrell will always remain elusive and keep some part of himself to
>     himself.  He will surely triumph in the end.  End of story.
> 
>     Bruce
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jun 13 11:19:47 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 11:19:47 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- more questions
Message-ID: <27470.1181758788067.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Bill, I don't think any "ear is quite that good."  Why?  Writers are crafty bastards and are very good at changing disguises.  You teach Pynchon.  In The Crying of Lot 49, I think his imitation of Renaissance revenge tragedy very good.  Can you distinguish Pynchon from "Richard Wharfinger?"  I couldn't.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jun 13, 2007 10:40 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- more questions
>
>Bruce, thanks for taking my test! You get an A. 
>
>When I started using "appropriated," I was trying to move awayfrom the word "stole" or "stolen." Brian Vickers'sAppropriating Shakespeare is about using Shakespeare's text forone's own ends and designs. Thus we have the historical Shakespeare, thefeminist Shakespeare, the presentist Shakespeare, and so on and on . . ..  So I was trying to see Durrell as using other people's writingfor his own purposes. Not an outright theft exactly. 
>
>What I was getting at is: if any reader were given a passage from Durrell-- a passage that Durrell has at least partially appropriated -- wouldthe reader be able to separate the Durrellian style from, say, theXenophonian/Warnerian style? We have said that the Durrellian style isunique. If this is so, we should be able to tell when Warner'stranslation ends and Durrell begins in his own style. 
>
>Or is no ear quite that good? 
>
>Bill 
>

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jun 13 11:26:38 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 11:26:38 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] The real behind the fictional people and situations
Message-ID: <16959880.1181759198660.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Bill, great writers create fictional worlds in which we want to enter and share.  That doesn't make these worlds or characters real, and it's probably preferable that they're not.  That's why Durrell sat in his armchair in Sommieres, read books, and then wrote travel literature about travels in his imagination.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jun 13, 2007 10:17 AM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] The real behind the fictional people and situations
>
>I still call itfiction.  Lawrence Durrell, as Michael Haag shows, also took similarpains with representing the people and places of Alexandria.  Istill call that fiction.  This seems self-evident to me, but maybenot.
>
>writes Bruce.
>Yes, no matter what, fictional characters are merely words on paper orscreen. I wrote the following some years ago:
>
>     Literary characters aremerely words (or, to be precise, certain marks that some readersinterpret as words) in a certain order on a page or, nowadays, on acomputer screen. Clearly, literary characters do not have the sameontological status that we do. And yet we humans talk about literarycharacters as if they were living creatureswith volition, agency, and a full complement of human attributes.Borges can write, and we can understand:"Vanquished by reality, by Spain, Don Quixote died in his nativevillage in the year 1614. He was survived but a short time by Miguel deCervantes." We know that literary characters donot exist as humans exist, and yet we write about them as if they do. Howdo we account for this apparent double-think? 
>
>I realize that this paragraph does not exactly address Bruce'scomment, but it may add to the debate.
>
>Bill


From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Wed Jun 13 12:29:59 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:29:59 +0200
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- more questions
In-Reply-To: <20070613174104.TEBQ9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <28917293.1181752917786.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<20070613174104.TEBQ9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <467045B7.9080000@interdesign.fr>

Surely it is all "Durrellian"; a drunk is still 
himself even under the influence of makes him 
appear otherwise.
Marc Piel

william godshalk wrote:
> Bruce, thanks for taking my test! You get an A.
> 
> When I started using "appropriated," I was trying to move away from the 
> word "stole" or "stolen." Brian Vickers's Appropriating Shakespeare is 
> about using Shakespeare's text for one's own ends and designs. Thus we 
> have the historical Shakespeare, the feminist Shakespeare, the 
> presentist Shakespeare, and so on and on . . . .  So I was trying to see 
> Durrell as using other people's writing for his own purposes. Not an 
> outright theft exactly.
> 
> What I was getting at is: if any reader were given a passage from 
> Durrell -- a passage that Durrell has at least partially appropriated -- 
> would the reader be able to separate the Durrellian style from, say, the 
> Xenophonian/Warnerian style? We have said that the Durrellian style is 
> unique. If this is so, we should be able to tell when Warner's 
> translation ends and Durrell begins in his own style.
> 
> Or is no ear quite that good?
> 
> Bill
> ***************************************
> W. L. Godshalk           *
> Department of English         *
> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> 513-281-5927
> ***************************************
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jun 13 12:45:43 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:45:43 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] du fond de mon coeur
Message-ID: <28715507.1181763943654.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Marc, everything sounds better in French.  I'll have to try this one on my wife.

Merci,

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Marc Piel <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
>Sent: Jun 13, 2007 12:13 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- more questions
>
>Hello Bruce. Thank you!
>In french: "Je t'aime du fond de mon coeur"
>Not only do I recall the inscription; here is a 
>photo of it. Je revendique le copyright sur le 
>photo! Ha!.
>Regards
>Marc Piel
>
>Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>> Marc, I like your post.  Can you provide the French for "from bottom of my heart?"  And do you recall the French on Maupassant's grave?
>> 
>> Merci,
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> 
>>>From: Marc Piel <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
>>>Sent: Jun 12, 2007 11:52 PM
>>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- more questions
>>>
>>>Hello everyone,
>>>Some of you must have numeric versions of these 
>>>texts to be able to so easily find "words", etc... 
>>>It is very difficult for me to follow all of your 
>>>posts; Quantity and contents an I don't have 
>>>access to the same material.
>>>
>>>Have you ever suddenly become aware of something 
>>>that you had never taken any notice of before and 
>>>suddenly everywhere you turned, everything you 
>>>did, "it was there"? This can happen for an idea, 
>>>a word, a colour, a phrase, a concept. We all live 
>>>in a moveable environment - and it is moving 
>>>faster and faster - some of us are more or less 
>>>"sensitive" to it.
>>>
>>>This inevitably happened to LD also (very, very, 
>>>sensitive), and became part of his writing.
>>>
>>>I recently told a woman (no lewd comments please) 
>>>that I loved "her from the bottom of my heart".
>>>I think I had never used that expression in my 
>>>life and since, everywhere I turn it comes up.
>>>
>>>Even our new french pr?sident used it in his 
>>>inaugural speech and last sunday I was showing 
>>>some visitors around; we were in a Paris cemetery; 
>>>discovered Maupassant's grave, and there on an 
>>>enamelled plate was that expression again.
>>>
>>>Probably, I picked it up unconsciously and used 
>>>it. Surely this is a natural thing to do and 
>>>cannot be called "plagarism", or copying, or 
>>>anything done on purpose. When I read a book, I 
>>>often note phrases that impress me or that make me 
>>>think; not sure what I do with them after that. I 
>>>have piles of little cards and often I don't know 
>>>what know anymore what their source was - and it 
>>>doesn't really matter. By the way I am neither a 
>>>teacher nor a writer; I am a designer - I draw, 
>>>today on a computer: I'm just just someone 
>>>interested in ideas, like many people!
>>>
>>>Marc Piel
>
>> 



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jun 13 14:57:12 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:57:12 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Words
Message-ID: <15331287.1181771832993.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

You word me, Bill.

(Ant. & Cleo. 5.2.190)

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jun 13, 2007 2:08 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>
>Subject: shall I create a world? 
>
>Bill, great writers createfictional worlds in which we want to enter and share.  That doesn'tmake these worlds or characters real, and it's probably preferable thatthey're not.  That's why Durrell sat in his armchair in Sommieres,read books, and then wrote travel literature about travels in hisimagination.
>Bruce, verbal artists use words. "Shall I project aworld?" Driblette uses actors to embody the words of Wharfinger. Butwhat about those of us who do not have other voices (like readers ofaudiobooks) to read our words aloud? 
>
>I sit down in my easy chair among my books next to the fireplace (not onduring the summer), etc. It's very quiet -- once the books go to sleep. Iread alone. I like to read alone. But I read words on a page; I do notenter another world.
>
>Metaphor!  Of course all language is metaphoric. Jack Raper manyyears ago challenged me to say something that was not metaphoric. Icouldn't do it. 
>
>Anyway entering a fictional world is far more romantic than readingalone. 
>
>Bill


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Wed Jun 13 17:37:21 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (MICHAEL HAAG)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:37:21 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Xenophon's influence ends
In-Reply-To: <29950717.1181427182595.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <136024.90617.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Perhaps it would make an interesting project to identify those parts of Durrell's books that Durrell himself wrote.  
   
  :Michael
  

Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
    body{font-family: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color: #ffffff;color: black;}    Petronius's Satyricon?  The passage has a Felliniesque quality, which does suggest a cento.  Fellini's Satyricon appears in 1969, however.  I'd say Durrell has more than one source in mind.  The images are not particular, rather generic, so here I'd say, as Charles perhaps would, that he have a borrowing of "tone" or atmosphere.

Bruce


  -----Original Message----- 
From: william godshalk 
Sent: Jun 9, 2007 2:24 PM 
To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine -- Xenophon's influence ends 

Xenophon's influence on Justine -- or Warner's influence through Xenophon -- seems to begin near the bottom of page 177 and end after the first full paragraph on page 179. In other words, we are not talking about a great deal of material.

But the next paragraph  - - "With a column on the march memory becomes an industry . . . . . . . as one might open a major artery" (pp. 179-180) -- seems also to draw on Classical material, e.g. Games, Heracles, symposium, white doves with clipped wings, banqueting-table, Harpmaster, leather phallus. 

Of course this could be a Durrellian cento, but it may be from one source. 

What do you think?

Bill  
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Wed Jun 13 17:49:01 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:49:01 -0400
Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Xenophon's influence ends
In-Reply-To: <136024.90617.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <29950717.1181427182595.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<136024.90617.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070614004912.HJGM23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

At 08:37 PM 6/13/2007, you wrote:
>Perhaps it would make an interesting project to identify those parts 
>of Durrell's books that Durrell himself wrote.
>
>:Michael
Perfectly diabolic, Michael, perfectly. Did Durrell compose longhand 
rather than with a typewriter?

Bill
***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From slighcl at wfu.edu  Wed Jun 13 17:48:13 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:48:13 -0400
Subject: [ilds] The real behind the fictional people and situations
In-Reply-To: <23610738.1181754231137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <23610738.1181754231137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4670904D.3010904@wfu.edu>



On 6/13/2007 1:03 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:

>I tend to think anything mediated through an author's brain and which he labels fiction, no matter how factual in basis, is still fiction.  
>
I only ever work from that premise, Bruce, and I teach Victorian 
novels--from the highwater moment of "realism." 

In class, I continually remind my students  that these different visions 
of Victorian London and Victorian England are just that--visions--in 
which Dickens and Eliot and Stoker are borrowing and rejecting and 
distorting and integrating certain elements from the author's 
experience, but not presenting their fashioned worlds in a direct, 
one-to-one relation to the "real" world elsewhere.  Thus literature's 
difference from the phone book or the cook book, which must work through 
direct, accurate translation of information.  Thus the usefulness of 
science fiction and fantasy, genres which return us to the recognition 
that imagined worlds are never simply "our world."  (Read attentively, 
which of our novels are not properly seen as "speculative fiction"?)  

To understand this, imagine transferring characters among books, like 
interstellar explorers moving from one world to another.  Without a 
doubt, Pip could not exist, could not survive a transfer to Middlemarch 
or to Thornfield Hall or to Toad Hall, where the moral economy of the 
different writers' imagination would not permit Pip what Dickens allows 
him.  Likewise it is impossible to imagine Heathcliff outside of the 
special environment of Wuthering Heights--he is Bronte's special 
homunculus, not allowed to creep from his suspending fluid. . . .

Thus the perils of a too easy acceptance of mimesis. . . .

I suppose I am more a partisan of the Lamp, rather than the Mirror.

I have increasingly come to sense a kind of hiccup or slight trembling 
of the ontological veil  in /Justine /whenever Scobie appears in the 
text.  He really seems to be a character dropped in from another book, 
from another place and another time, and Darley, I fancy, writes in a 
very different way when he writes of his time with Scobie.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Wed Jun 13 18:27:26 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:27:26 -0400
Subject: [ilds] The real behind the fictional people and situations
In-Reply-To: <4670904D.3010904@wfu.edu>
References: <23610738.1181754231137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<4670904D.3010904@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <20070614012747.HNVQ23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Wed Jun 13 18:42:22 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:42:22 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] the Mirror and the Lamp
Message-ID: <14446887.1181785342709.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

We're partners here, Charles.  I too am a good Romantic and favor the lamp, although mine is closer to Aladdin's.  I'll probably regret the metaphor, once Bill reads this, but I rub the lamp and wait for the Durrellian genie to appear.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Jun 13, 2007 5:48 PM
>To: Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net>, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] The real behind the fictional people and situations
>

>On 6/13/2007 1:03 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:
>
>>I tend to think anything mediated through an author's brain and which he labels fiction, no matter how factual in basis, is still fiction.  
>>
>I only ever work from that premise, Bruce, and I teach Victorian 
>novels--from the highwater moment of "realism." 
>
>In class, I continually remind my students  that these different visions 
>of Victorian London and Victorian England are just that--visions--in 
>which Dickens and Eliot and Stoker are borrowing and rejecting and 
>distorting and integrating certain elements from the author's 
>experience, but not presenting their fashioned worlds in a direct, 
>one-to-one relation to the "real" world elsewhere.  Thus literature's 
>difference from the phone book or the cook book, which must work through 
>direct, accurate translation of information.  Thus the usefulness of 
>science fiction and fantasy, genres which return us to the recognition 
>that imagined worlds are never simply "our world."  (Read attentively, 
>which of our novels are not properly seen as "speculative fiction"?)  
>
>To understand this, imagine transferring characters among books, like 
>interstellar explorers moving from one world to another.  Without a 
>doubt, Pip could not exist, could not survive a transfer to Middlemarch 
>or to Thornfield Hall or to Toad Hall, where the moral economy of the 
>different writers' imagination would not permit Pip what Dickens allows 
>him.  Likewise it is impossible to imagine Heathcliff outside of the 
>special environment of Wuthering Heights--he is Bronte's special 
>homunculus, not allowed to creep from his suspending fluid. . . .
>
>Thus the perils of a too easy acceptance of mimesis. . . .
>
>I suppose I am more a partisan of the Lamp, rather than the Mirror.
>
>I have increasingly come to sense a kind of hiccup or slight trembling 
>of the ontological veil  in /Justine /whenever Scobie appears in the 
>text.  He really seems to be a character dropped in from another book, 
>from another place and another time, and Darley, I fancy, writes in a 
>very different way when he writes of his time with Scobie.
>
>Charles



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Wed Jun 13 18:54:31 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:54:31 -0400
Subject: [ilds] the Mirror and the Lamp
In-Reply-To: <14446887.1181785342709.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa
	.earthlink.net>
References: <14446887.1181785342709.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070614015512.HSGT23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Jun 14 09:16:15 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 12:16:15 -0400
Subject: [ilds] factoid: Durrell, Williams, Turkey
Message-ID: <20070614161627.ZULQ9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From durrells at otenet.gr  Thu Jun 14 14:48:19 2007
From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 00:48:19 +0300
Subject: [ilds] factoid: Durrell, Williams, Turkey
References: <20070614161627.ZULQ9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <002701c7aecd$b8c33cc0$0100000a@DSC01>

Bill, after your presentation at Avignon on Durrell's consultation with friends about Istanbul (which, I agree, he probably didnt visit, and hence his anxiety to get details correct) I gave you information, subsequently incorporated in my book (sorry Bruce Whitewine) which you were unaware of, your reaction being 'Why didnt S----- C-- tell me abou this when I was in Carbondale?' - the evidence is plentiful, and I will now add the Williams to that in the next edition - thanks. RP
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: william godshalk 
  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 7:16 PM
  Subject: [ilds] factoid: Durrell, Williams, Turkey


              To his friend Gwyn Williams, Durrell confided that a part of the narrative he was working on in 1965 (Tunc/Nunquam) was to be set in Turkey, and, since Williams was attached to the British Council in Istanbul and was himself writing a travel book about Turkey, Durrell applied to him for help. Williams responded by inviting Durrell for a visit. About a year later, Durrell had yet to appear, and Williams had sent him "two brochures on Istanbul" apparently accompanied by a map of the city (March 11, 1966). Although Williams reiterated his invitation to Durrell, as far as I can tell, Durrell never made the trip to Istanbul. 

  I now have a copy of Williams's Turkey: A Traveller's Guide and History. Faber first published it in 1967, and after a cursory examination, I find no reference to Durrell. However, it might be interesting to compare Williams's guide closely with The Revolt of Aphrodite. 

  Bill

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  ***************************************
  W. L. Godshalk           *
  Department of English         *
  University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
  Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
  513-281-5927
  *************************************** 


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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Jun 14 17:02:17 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:02:17 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Richard, Durrell, Williams, Turkey
In-Reply-To: <002701c7aecd$b8c33cc0$0100000a@DSC01>
References: <20070614161627.ZULQ9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<002701c7aecd$b8c33cc0$0100000a@DSC01>
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Thu Jun 14 17:25:06 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (MICHAEL HAAG)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 01:25:06 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ilds] factoid: Durrell, Williams, Turkey
In-Reply-To: <002701c7aecd$b8c33cc0$0100000a@DSC01>
Message-ID: <959323.93960.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Williams was not the source for Durrell's background scenery for Istanbul; that lies elsewhere.  Williams knew next to nothing about Istanbul.  I do not recall that his book on Turkey included Istanbul; but I do recall that his book on Turkey was pretty poor.  To anyone who knows Istanbul, it is obvious that Durrell never went there, or at any rate knew next to nothing about the city.
   
  :Michael

Durrell School of Corfu <durrells at otenet.gr> wrote:
          Bill, after your presentation at Avignon on Durrell's consultation with friends about Istanbul (which, I agree, he probably didnt visit, and hence his anxiety to get details correct) I gave you information, subsequently incorporated in my book (sorry Bruce Whitewine) which you were unaware of, your reaction being 'Why didnt S----- C-- tell me abou this when I was in Carbondale?' - the evidence is plentiful, and I will now add the Williams to that in the next edition - thanks. RP
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: william godshalk 
  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 7:16 PM
  Subject: [ilds] factoid: Durrell, Williams, Turkey
  

            To his friend Gwyn Williams, Durrell confided that a part of the narrative he was working on in 1965 (Tunc/Nunquam) was to be set in Turkey, and, since Williams was attached to the British Council in Istanbul and was himself writing a travel book about Turkey, Durrell applied to him for help. Williams responded by inviting Durrell for a visit. About a year later, Durrell had yet to appear, and Williams had sent him "two brochures on Istanbul" apparently accompanied by a map of the city (March 11, 1966). Although Williams reiterated his invitation to Durrell, as far as I can tell, Durrell never made the trip to Istanbul. 

I now have a copy of Williams's Turkey: A Traveller's Guide and History. Faber first published it in 1967, and after a cursory examination, I find no reference to Durrell. However, it might be interesting to compare Williams's guide closely with The Revolt of Aphrodite. 

Bill

__________ NOD32 2329 (20070614) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com

  ***************************************
  W. L. Godshalk           *
  Department of English         *
  University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
  Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
  513-281-5927
***************************************     
---------------------------------
    
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https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds



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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Thu Jun 14 18:09:46 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 21:09:46 -0400
Subject: [ilds] factoid: Durrell, Williams, Turkey
In-Reply-To: <959323.93960.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <002701c7aecd$b8c33cc0$0100000a@DSC01>
	<959323.93960.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070615010956.OFVD23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From durrells at otenet.gr  Thu Jun 14 20:57:50 2007
From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 06:57:50 +0300
Subject: [ilds] Richard, Durrell, Williams, Turkey
References: <20070614161627.ZULQ9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><002701c7aecd$b8c33cc0$0100000a@DSC01>
	<20070615000217.NWVQ23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <001001c7af01$57c3b420$0100000a@DSC01>

According to the index, the name Godshalk appears on page 426.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: william godshalk 
  To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca 
  Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 3:02 AM
  Subject: [ilds] Richard, Durrell, Williams, Turkey


  At 05:48 PM 6/14/2007, Richard Pine wrote:

    Bill, after your presentation at Avignon on Durrell's consultation with friends about Istanbul (which, I agree, he probably didnt visit, and hence his anxiety to get details correct) I gave you information, subsequently incorporated in my book (sorry Bruce Whitewine) which you were unaware of, your reaction being 'Why didnt S----- C-- tell me abou this when I was in Carbondale?' - the evidence is plentiful, and I will now add the Williams to that in the next edition - thanks. RP

  Richard, I should write things down. But then I would forget that I have written them down, or at least in what place I have written them down. 

  I have now plucked Lawrence Durrell: The Mindscape from my shelf (I did remember where I put it). Unfortunately it is not the second edition, but the first -- signed by the author I see. 

  Where precisely shall I look?

  Bill


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  ***************************************
  W. L. Godshalk           *
  Department of English         *
  University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
  Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
  513-281-5927
  *************************************** 


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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jun 15 10:21:33 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:21:33 -0400
Subject: [ilds] the great duck shoot
In-Reply-To: <959323.93960.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <002701c7aecd$b8c33cc0$0100000a@DSC01>
	<959323.93960.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070615172142.RSRT23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

We have mentioned the duck shoot briefly -- and then the ducks done 
disappeared. Am I wrong in believing that most Durrellians think the 
shoot is the climax of the novel? Or if not the climax, then one of 
the most important parts of the novel?

But why is it important? A duck shoot is fairly common in rural 
areas. Blinds, shotguns, dogs (no Egyptians) as retrievers, small 
boats. So what's so important about Nessim's event?

It turns out not to be a setup to kill his wife's lover (DaCapo or 
Darley). It is, apparently, a cover for DaCapo and Justine to flee 
the country. But the faked death of DaCapo is poorly managed: the 
body has been in the water too long, and the dead man has false teeth 
(which DaCapo does not). Bunglers? The gang that couldn't shoot straight?

And Justine could have left the country in various ways. King Farouk, 
undoubtedly, would have taken her to Palestine on his private cruiser 
-- at a price, of course. Wicked Farouk was big news back in my 
youth. "... It was well known that the King was a frequent guest at 
Nessim's table" (p. 172).
***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Jun 15 13:16:12 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:16:12 -0400
Subject: [ilds] the great duck shoot
In-Reply-To: <20070615172142.RSRT23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <002701c7aecd$b8c33cc0$0100000a@DSC01>	<959323.93960.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<20070615172142.RSRT23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <4672F38C.7000602@wfu.edu>

On 6/15/2007 1:21 PM, william godshalk wrote:

>We have mentioned the duck shoot briefly -- and then the ducks done 
>disappeared. Am I wrong in believing that most Durrellians think the 
>shoot is the climax of the novel? Or if not the climax, then one of 
>the most important parts of the novel?
>
>But why is it important? 
>
>  
>
I think that the Duck Shoot stands out on narrative and aesthetic 
merit.  I like the sudden sharpened focus of purpose in the narration of 
these murky dealings.  In the previous episodes the reader has had to 
navigate among the shifting floors of Nessim's paranoia and historical 
dreams; the interwoven, simultaneous narratives of Melissa's time with 
Nessim / Darley's moments with Justine (that stitching is finely done! 
sorry I am out at the Morgan Library in NYC and don't have my copy of 
/Justine /for episode #); and all of the Durrellian retrospect and mixed 
temporality that comes before those episodes.  Then, like a burden 
lifting and a reckoning made ready for, there comes the sudden release 
of the Duck Hunt.  

Nessim's narrative control is palpable for Darley.  It is "Nessim's Duck 
Shoot" because he has outlined and orchestrated it.  Darley's has signed 
himself over to Nessim's control when he sends back the card.  Nessim 
divides the hunters and separates the lovers.  From my memory I am 
recalling the allotment of the guns and the talk late in to the night.  
Especially fine is Nessim's touch upon Darley to wake him in the 
morning--what might be sinister in that touch is also gentle, even 
sympathetic and knowing, in that masculine way that used to characterize 
all of the little scrupulous acts of hunting back in the days.  If you 
come from an old hunting tradition I suppose that you will recognize 
what Durrell gets right here.  The care, the piety, and the gentleness 
of the hunter for the prey.  (Darley feels that he will shortly be 
sitting in Nessim's sights.  Nessim has placed him in a "blind.")  I am 
holding the Duck Shoot up to Hemingway's Nick stories and Faulkner's Big 
Woods cycle, and I do not find it wanting.

Have you ever fired a beautiful light twelve by Purdy, Bill?  Again, I 
know American shotguns--all of ours were manufactured between 1912 - 
1950--but do not know the pleasure of those British guns.  I assume the 
shorthand of make and model is important.  A custom.  Highest quality.  
Mark of taste.  Tell me what that gun tells us about its mistress.
http://www.800shotgun.com/usedguns/images/PurdyPair_rec_gif.jpg
I also think of Leslie Durrell, one time gun enthusiast, late time 
street sweeper (at least in Gerry's and Larry's characterization of the 
odd brother. who never got to tell his story.)

More when I reach Cambridge.

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jun 15 14:52:50 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:52:50 -0400
Subject: [ilds] the great duck shoot
In-Reply-To: <4672F38C.7000602@wfu.edu>
References: <002701c7aecd$b8c33cc0$0100000a@DSC01>
	<959323.93960.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<20070615172142.RSRT23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<4672F38C.7000602@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <20070615215248.BQKG7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>


Yes, Charlie, that Justine gives Darley a Purdy (one of the best 
shotguns made -- you can find more information online -- which see) 
is surely significant. But why does he need the best gun? Because 
he'll need enough gun to get him through the day? Or is this a 
goodbye present? Or a warning? If so, why this? He doesn't seem to 
hunt on the nameless island -- or does he? Does he give the gun back to Nessim?

Da Capo's touch may be a goodbye gesture. Or the kiss of death?

I come from a poor hunting family -- shotguns and rifles all around 
-- some handguns -- but we never went duck hunting. We were basically 
a rabbit/deer family. And we never really got started early in the morning.

Bill (for starters)
***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From slighcl at wfu.edu  Fri Jun 15 15:27:15 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:27:15 -0400
Subject: [ilds] the great duck shoot
In-Reply-To: <20070615215248.BQKG7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <002701c7aecd$b8c33cc0$0100000a@DSC01>	<959323.93960.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com>	<20070615172142.RSRT23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>	<4672F38C.7000602@wfu.edu>
	<20070615215248.BQKG7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <46731243.2020008@wfu.edu>

On 6/15/2007 5:52 PM, william godshalk wrote:

>Yes, Charlie, that Justine gives Darley a Purdy (one of the best 
>shotguns made -- you can find more information online -- which see) 
>is surely significant. But why does he need the best gun? 
>  
>
Could you do me a favor, Bill?  I am up here in New York, so I do not 
have all of my books and notes as I would like.  Could you collate the 
paragraph "Justine and I are moving through the spiderweb" in /Faber 
/1/1 Justine against the Faber 1962?  You will note, I think, that 
Durrell tidies up the shotgun's make--from "light" to "stout."  Durrell 
also makes several other changes throughout the Duck Shoot.  I apologize 
that I cannot offer more than memory, but I would prefer to be 
accurate.  Thanks!

>Da Capo's touch may be a goodbye gesture. Or the kiss of death?
>
>I come from a poor hunting family -- shotguns and rifles all around 
>-- some handguns -- but we never went duck hunting. We were basically 
>a rabbit/deer family. And we never really got started early in the morning.
>  
>
Yes, I have to admit that my reading of the Duck Shoot is inflected by 
my own experience.  Although we owned quite a bit of land and leased 
rights to several ranches, I would not have enjoyed such a large hunt as 
presented in /Justine/.  To this day I cannot easily contemplate hunting 
without the idea of stewardship and caretaking.  The land and the game 
must be watched and kept up year round for the hunt to count.  Yes, this 
is a bit elitist.  And now that I live a scholar's life on a scholar's 
means, I naturally do not wish to hunt.  

Charles

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jun 15 16:01:42 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:01:42 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] the Purdy
Message-ID: <19682773.1181948503074.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


Bill and Charles, if I may break into your dialogue with a little dissonance.  First, thanks to Charles for providing the image of a Purdy, which I've always wondered about.  Second, I don't go too deeply into character motivation here.  I took the Purdy to signify pretty much what "the great silver Rolls with the daffodil hub-caps" does -- that is, another touch of the exotic, or "adventitious," as Durrell might phrase it.  If you like skies of "hot nude pearl," you'll like a Purdy inlaid with a mother of pearl stock, which is sort of the way I imagined the high-end shotgun before seeing one "in the flesh."  Let's not forget that Alexandria and the Hosnani family represent, in part, wealth and extravagance.  I've lived in Hong Kong during the good old colonial days, and there I saw lots of Rolls-Royces and other symbols of conspicuous consumption.  Ken Seigneurie probably has something to say about all this and Edward Said, too, were he still around and deigned to comment.

Bruce


-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jun 15, 2007 2:52 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] the great duck shoot
>
>
>Yes, Charlie, that Justine gives Darley a Purdy (one of the best 
>shotguns made -- you can find more information online -- which see) 
>is surely significant. But why does he need the best gun? Because 
>he'll need enough gun to get him through the day? Or is this a 
>goodbye present? Or a warning? If so, why this? He doesn't seem to 
>hunt on the nameless island -- or does he? Does he give the gun back to Nessim?
>
>Da Capo's touch may be a goodbye gesture. Or the kiss of death?
>
>I come from a poor hunting family -- shotguns and rifles all around 
>-- some handguns -- but we never went duck hunting. We were basically 
>a rabbit/deer family. And we never really got started early in the morning.
>
>Bill (for starters)
>

From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Fri Jun 15 16:37:57 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (MICHAEL HAAG)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 00:37:57 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ilds] the great duck shoot
In-Reply-To: <46731243.2020008@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <857020.80816.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

One of the changes Durrell makes between his notes and the finished product is to alter something about the gun, or the sight, I forget exactly what, which makes Darley a TALLER man.  
   
  :Michael
   
   
  

slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu> wrote:
  On 6/15/2007 5:52 PM, william godshalk wrote:   
Yes, Charlie, that Justine gives Darley a Purdy (one of the best   shotguns made -- you can find more information online -- which see)   is surely significant. But why does he need the best gun?     
Could you do me a favor, Bill?  I am up here in New York, so I do not have all of my books and notes as I would like.  Could you collate the paragraph "Justine and I are moving through the spiderweb" in Faber 1/1 Justine against the Faber 1962?  You will note, I think, that Durrell tidies up the shotgun's make--from "light" to "stout."  Durrell also makes several other changes throughout the Duck Shoot.  I apologize that I cannot offer more than memory, but I would prefer to be accurate.  Thanks!

  
Da Capo's touch may be a goodbye gesture. Or the kiss of death?    I come from a poor hunting family -- shotguns and rifles all around   -- some handguns -- but we never went duck hunting. We were basically   a rabbit/deer family. And we never really got started early in the morning.    
Yes, I have to admit that my reading of the Duck Shoot is inflected by my own experience.  Although we owned quite a bit of land and leased rights to several ranches, I would not have enjoyed such a large hunt as presented in Justine.  To this day I cannot easily contemplate hunting without the idea of stewardship and caretaking.  The land and the game must be watched and kept up year round for the hunt to count.  Yes, this is a bit elitist.  And now that I live a scholar's life on a scholar's means, I naturally do not wish to hunt.   

Charles

--   **********************  Charles L. Sligh  Department of English  Wake Forest University  slighcl at wfu.edu  **********************
_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jun 15 16:38:54 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:38:54 -0400
Subject: [ilds] tout twelve by Purdey
In-Reply-To: <46731243.2020008@wfu.edu>
References: <002701c7aecd$b8c33cc0$0100000a@DSC01>
	<959323.93960.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<20070615172142.RSRT23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<4672F38C.7000602@wfu.edu>
	<20070615215248.BQKG7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<46731243.2020008@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <20070615233902.TUOB23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Fri Jun 15 16:48:16 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (MICHAEL HAAG)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 00:48:16 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- more questions
In-Reply-To: <18055892.1181753290036.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <361708.86080.qm@web86606.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Marc:
   
  Next time you meet that woman and find you are uttering to her verbatim not only what is on Maupassant's grave but his complete works and telling her they are your own, you will know the difference between casual assimilatation and something rather more industrious.
   
  :Michael
   
  

Bruce Redwine <bredwine1968 at earthlink.net> wrote:
  Marc, I like your post. Can you provide the French for "from bottom of my heart?" And do you recall the French on Maupassant's grave?

Merci,

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Marc Piel 
>Sent: Jun 12, 2007 11:52 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's verbal style -- more questions
>
>Hello everyone,
>Some of you must have numeric versions of these 
>texts to be able to so easily find "words", etc... 
>It is very difficult for me to follow all of your 
>posts; Quantity and contents an I don't have 
>access to the same material.
>
>Have you ever suddenly become aware of something 
>that you had never taken any notice of before and 
>suddenly everywhere you turned, everything you 
>did, "it was there"? This can happen for an idea, 
>a word, a colour, a phrase, a concept. We all live 
>in a moveable environment - and it is moving 
>faster and faster - some of us are more or less 
>"sensitive" to it.
>
>This inevitably happened to LD also (very, very, 
>sensitive), and became part of his writing.
>
>I recently told a woman (no lewd comments please) 
>that I loved "her from the bottom of my heart".
>I think I had never used that expression in my 
>life and since, everywhere I turn it comes up.
>
>Even our new french pr?sident used it in his 
>inaugural speech and last sunday I was showing 
>some visitors around; we were in a Paris cemetery; 
>discovered Maupassant's grave, and there on an 
>enamelled plate was that expression again.
>
>Probably, I picked it up unconsciously and used 
>it. Surely this is a natural thing to do and 
>cannot be called "plagarism", or copying, or 
>anything done on purpose. When I read a book, I 
>often note phrases that impress me or that make me 
>think; not sure what I do with them after that. I 
>have piles of little cards and often I don't know 
>what know anymore what their source was - and it 
>doesn't really matter. By the way I am neither a 
>teacher nor a writer; I am a designer - I draw, 
>today on a computer: I'm just just someone 
>interested in ideas, like many people!
>
>Marc Piel
>
>slighcl wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> On 6/12/2007 8:08 PM, william godshalk wrote:
>> 
>>> I will offer a challenge. In the past few weeks, we have found that 
>>> some of the material that Durrell uses on pages 177-179 is taken from 
>>> Rex Warner's translation of Xenophon.
>>>
>>> (1) Before learning this, did any of you find this passage in Justine 
>>> different from the surrounding material? 
>> 
>> Yes. Always. Without a doubt. Some of my favorite prose in Justine. 
>> And I enjoy your discovery of the Xenophon source because I was reading 
>> Justine and the Anabasis at the same early age. (Penguin gave me 
>> both!) Just think, the hidden connections between those books were 
>> gestating all these twenty-something years, waiting for Bill Godshalk to 
>> midwife.
>> 
>>> Did anyone think that Durrell was here appropriating material from 
>>> another writer?
>> 
>> No. I had at most thought that Durrell was adopting a tone, a style, a 
>> mask.
>> 
>>> (2) I imagine that some members of this list didn't pay strict 
>>> attention to this find. If you didn't, could you read these pages and 
>>> distinguish between Durrell's prose and Warner's? In what ways are 
>>> they different in style?
>> 
>> I paid strict attention to your find. Even on a train passing through 
>> the Belgian countryside. Glow-worm express.
>> 
>>>
>>> (3) If you feel that Durrell integrated Warner's prose into his prose, 
>>> could you explain the integration process? What does Durrell add, 
>>> remove, or modify to make Warner into Durrell?
>> 
>> 1. "Their enemies were of a breath-taking elegance" -- That is pure
>> Durrell and is a kind of acknowledgment of what he is up to. 
>> Although much of the description of armour &c. comes from Warner's
>> translation of Xenophon, Durrell begins by glossing Warner,
>> copying down Warner's words and glossing them, critiquing them,
>> and elevating them through his imaginative engagement.
>> 2. "With a column on the march memory becomes an industry,
>> manufacturing dreams which common ills unite in a community of
>> ideas based upon privation." -- Durrell loves opening a paragraph
>> with this sort of eighteenth-century period--pithy, confident
>> statements of knowledge that he delivers to an audience expected
>> to nod in agreement. Think about Prospero's Cell: "It is a
>> sophism to imagine that there is any strict dividing line between
>> the waking world and the world of dreams." World-wisdom.
>> 3. "He opened memory to his consciousness royally, prodigally, as one
>> might open a major artery." -- That would have to be Durrell. In
>> Justine and in the poetry arteries and veins abound, especially in
>> conection with thoughts of impending suicide. Antony, Cleo, the
>> whole sick crew.
>> 
>>> (4) Or would you argue that Durrell knew that Warner's style was like 
>>> his own, and D would have to change very little to integrate Warner's 
>>> prose?
>> 
>> 
>> I don't know. I have been revisiting the Warner translation on Amazon, 
>> which offers a concordance, an index of unusual phrases and a searchable 
>> text. I will tell you if Durrell's ghost confesses to my cast of the 
>> digital planchette.
>> 
>> C&c.
>> 
>> -- 
>> **********************
>> Charles L. Sligh
>> Department of English
>> Wake Forest University
>> slighcl at wfu.edu
>> **********************
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> ILDS mailing list
>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>_______________________________________________
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jun 15 16:54:45 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:54:45 -0400
Subject: [ilds] the great duck shoot
In-Reply-To: <857020.80816.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <46731243.2020008@wfu.edu>
	<857020.80816.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070615235504.TVMT23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jun 15 16:59:16 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:59:16 -0400
Subject: [ilds] the great duck shoot and Robert Ruark
In-Reply-To: <46731243.2020008@wfu.edu>
References: <002701c7aecd$b8c33cc0$0100000a@DSC01>
	<959323.93960.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<20070615172142.RSRT23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<4672F38C.7000602@wfu.edu>
	<20070615215248.BQKG7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<46731243.2020008@wfu.edu>
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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jun 15 18:23:51 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 21:23:51 -0400
Subject: [ilds] How is it
In-Reply-To: <20070615233902.TUOB23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.emai
	l.uc.edu>
References: <002701c7aecd$b8c33cc0$0100000a@DSC01>
	<959323.93960.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<20070615172142.RSRT23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<4672F38C.7000602@wfu.edu>
	<20070615215248.BQKG7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<46731243.2020008@wfu.edu>
	<20070615233902.TUOB23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <20070616012420.UAVY23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

"How is it that I have never yet recognized in Capodistria the author 
. . . the black patch" (210), has been cut.

And Darley is awakened by Nessim, not DaCapo as I earlier wrote.

Bill
***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Fri Jun 15 19:32:16 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 22:32:16 -0400
Subject: [ilds] the hydroplane?
In-Reply-To: <20070616012420.UAVY23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.emai
	l.uc.edu>
References: <002701c7aecd$b8c33cc0$0100000a@DSC01>
	<959323.93960.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<20070615172142.RSRT23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<4672F38C.7000602@wfu.edu>
	<20070615215248.BQKG7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<46731243.2020008@wfu.edu>
	<20070615233902.TUOB23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<20070616012420.UAVY23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <20070616023254.UGBI23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

One of the great mysteries of American literature is: what happened 
to Gatsby's hydroplane? Gatsby asks Nick Carraway over for trial run 
-- and then the hydroplane disappears.

But it reappears in the Duck Shoot episode, obviously appropriated by 
Durrell. In terms of dollars and cents this may be Durrell's most 
egregious appropriation to date. It has taken me years to trace what 
happened to Gatsby's hydroplane, and I shall be reporting this to 
Thursday Next for investigation.

Regarding my cursory collation of the Duck Shoot, it is now complete 
-- and I found an added "a" and a few commas that have been removed. 
Accidentals?

Have we discussed why the Duck Shoot is written in the present tense?

Bill
***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Fri Jun 15 20:42:12 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 20:42:12 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] the hydroplane?
Message-ID: <6897334.1181965332584.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Intertextuality meets the historical present.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
>Sent: Jun 15, 2007 7:32 PM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: [ilds] the hydroplane?

>One of the great mysteries of American literature is: what happened 
>to Gatsby's hydroplane? Gatsby asks Nick Carraway over for trial run 
>-- and then the hydroplane disappears.

>
>Regarding my cursory collation of the Duck Shoot, it is now complete 
>-- and I found an added "a" and a few commas that have been removed. 
>Accidentals?
>
>Have we discussed why the Duck Shoot is written in the present tense?
>
>Bill


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sat Jun 16 05:19:24 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 08:19:24 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Whiteley's Justine
Message-ID: <4673D54C.2090709@wfu.edu>


nudepainting%20copy.jpg


**

The hammer falls, a record tumbles ... for now 
<http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/the-hammer-falls-a-record-tumbles-8230-for-now/2007/06/14/1181414466907.html>
The Age - Melbourne,Victoria,Australia
The painting, titled Justine, depicts Whiteley's wife Wendy on Bondi 
Beach, reading the novel Justine by modernist writer *Lawrence Durrell*. 
*...*
See all stories on this topic 
<http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ncl=http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/the-hammer-falls-a-record-tumbles-8230-for-now/2007/06/14/1181414466907.html>



The Sydney Morning Herald Blogs: Stay in Touch
Hot on the heels of the record-breaking sale of Brett Whiteley's The 
Olgas for Ernest ... Goodman announced yesterday that the large oil 
painting Justine, ...
blogs.smh.com.au/sit/archives/2007/06/culture_whiteley_for_a_beach_h.html 
- Jun 14, 2007

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sat Jun 16 11:33:44 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 12:33:44 -0600
Subject: [ilds] [RG] Justine III.i to III.iv and into the Duck Shoot
In-Reply-To: <46731243.2020008@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <C2998928.D3AC%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>

Hello all,

If we're diving into Section III of Justine (all four sections), I can't
help but note that after all the Eliot references we've had before (and the
upcoming ending of Section IV with the same ending as Ezra Pound's "Canto
I"), that the season is Spring, the morbid season of "The Waste Land."
_Balthazar_ opens with a denial of Spring ("And spring? Ah! there is no
spring in the Delta.  No sense of refreshment and renewal of things."), yet
Justine's climax is in this absent season.

As may be cliched by now on this list, I think there's a coded wink at T.S.
Eliot.  After all, the narrator sees the bodies moving about the town
("Clouds of dried blood walk the streets like prophecies"), which is not a
far stretch from the corpses and crowds in Eliot's poem.

If any of that is viable, even just going back to the Real vs. the Unreal
city between Eliot and Durrell might suggest some readings (and I just
realized that Durrell was corresponding with Robert Liddell after WWII when
Liddell was in Athens after Cairo, just prior to Liddell publishing his
novel set in Alexandria _Unreal City_).  How do we, for instance, read
Nessim during that pointed scene in which he is known to be in Cairo yet
shows up outside Justine's bedroom while Darley is there?  That's III.i
paragraphs 4-8.  Is he a wounded fisherking with a bleeding groin?  He is
prematurely aged by the radio.  He's also the character who undergoes the
greatest change in section III and IV of the novel.

But another possibility...  Is Nessim really caught between two competing
tensions, between action and "the vertiginous uncertainty" of his jealousy?
That makes me think of Hamlet striding into Gertrude's bed chamber and doing
in Polonius.  That's not a flattering position for Darley, but given
Durrell's longstanding interest in Hamlet, I hardly think it's a stretch.
Moreover, they hear the disembodied voice of Nessim coming through the
radio, proving his presence is somewhere else, yet he still appears locally,
even though he can't be seen.  Again, I think of the ghost appearing in
Gertrude's bed chamber and her curious "I see him not, yet all there is I
see" (paraphrasing...).  That peculiar presence in absence, and Gertrude's
proof that her husband isn't present despite Hamlet's seeing him, doesn't
seem so far from Justine's knowledge that her husband is gone yet she and
Darley do see his presence.

On top of that, Nessim is repeatedly described as caught in a similar
emotional problem as Hamlet between knowing what he knows and wishing it
were not so.  The opportunity to discuss repression is ripe, and I'm sure
Durrell would have known of the psychoanalytic readings of Hamlet (he says
as much).  Yet, it's Justine who is described here as having the "Check"
that prevents her from acting, even though it prompts many actions that
Darley reads as her infidelity to Nessim.

These 'unreal' scenarios run through from the present/absent Nessim into the
multiple interpretive possibilities of Scobie's attempts to unravel the
boustrophedon, directly into Nessim's cycle of historical dreams, and then
finally the duck hunt and Capodistria's death.

I'd have to agree with Charles that this is the climax of the novel.
Section III as a whole connects the book together in each of its many
guises: the romantic triangle; failures to perceive amidst misdirection and
obfuscation; comedy of misinterpretation and story-telling gone awry in
Scobie; and the grand series of allusions.  Those lead into the Duck Hunt,
which would make a grand set piece if Durrell were anthologized.

The duck hunt (Justine III.iv) takes us back to the indecisive Hamlet when
"Nessim began to feel a great sense of relief.  He recognised at last that
what had to be decided would be decided at this time and at no other."  I
don't actually recall my first feelings when I read this, but I should think
that most readers are primed for tragedy.  The set-up is all there, but the
delivery takes us elsewhere...

But, what is this duck hunt after those preceding sections?  It is the
oldest part of the novel, with regard to its composition, but what else is
it?  We still have Nessim mis-reading the signs, literally the street signs
in his delusions, finding meaning in them that does not exist, yet the whole
section ends with a grand provocation to read more deeply to find the order
and coherence behind experience.  Is this a slap at the reader's
interpretive activities and responsibilities?  Better yet, is this a
borrowed detail from a psychoanalytic case study, with the street signs
speaking in code to the paranoid?  We know Durrell did that specific kind of
borrowing quite a bit, such as Semira's nose later in the Quartet, and it
often expands the scope of the problem he's discussing.  In the Quintet he
even points the reader to the original psychoanalytic case study (the only
time he does so in a vast array of plots lifted from this specific kind of
source), but in that instance I think going to the original only confuses
the matter.

Also, what do we make of Nessim finding his "father's grave in the Jewish
cemetery -- ... which echoed all the melancholy of European Jewry in exile"?
Nessim is a Copt not a Jew, yet his father appears to have been Jewish.  The
answer is clear: his Jewish father married a Coptic woman, Leila, though
again this is not really borne our later in the novel when we reach the
opening of Mountolive.  Do we, the readers, need to construct a lineage in
which Nessim's father was born of a Jewish mother yet remained Coptic,
married a Copt, and had Coptic sons?  Or, is this just a slip?  Is it
Nessim's madness, or is his father simply buried in a Jewish cemetery with
no suggestion of ethnicity?  Regardless, the tie to Jewishness seems
significant.

Michael has persuasively argued that Durrell had not planned to write the
Quartet as a whole when he published _Justine_, so for _Justine_ as a novel
on it's own, I'd read this as Nessim's Jewish father who married a Coptic
woman, but the general implication seems to include Nessim's support for the
creation of Israel from Palestine amidst the political turmoil of the time.
Moreover, this may show Durrell's sympathies for his third wife's family.
That suggests a range of political possibilities we don't see until
_Mountolive_ and _Clea_, and somehow it relates to the duck hunt.  Jewish
exile in Europe somehow relates to the hunt, Da Capo's death, and Justine's
flight from the city to Palestine -- I don't think including Israel's
creation (in the reader's and author's awarenesses) is a great leap for a
novel that appeared just after the Suez Crisis...

So, as na?ve readers who don't know the rest of the Quartet, how would
Nessim's political radio speeches, his secrecies, the boustrophedon and
Scobie's suspicions, and Nessim's Jewishness all contribute to our
anticipations as we enter the duck shoot?  I'd be inclined to regard it as
one of those literary moments that means in multiple ways, giving a range of
possibilities that can't be compressed down to one thing, with politics
included in that mix.

Yet, let's not forget that Nessim's madness takes the form of finding
structure amidst that which has no underlying pattern -- "reader beware"
even though we are called out to interpret!

This leads us into Nessim and Melissa's affair, the only one to create a
child, in which Durrell/Darley describes them as like brother and sister.

And finally, Darley then accepts the invitation to the shoot, noting "now
one might learn some important truths about human nature."  I suspect those
truths will lead us back to the conflicting epigraphs of the novel, but
that's also my imposition as a reader, perhaps forcing a pattern on to the
meaningless series of names in the street signs I cross during the day
(though of course there's a meaning: it's my day's narrative, is it not?).

That's our set-up for the scene that follows, and it strikes me as a complex
set-up for a complex series of confusing scenes in the climax, all of which
shifts complex interpretive responsibility onto the reader, warns against
the madness of over-interpretation, and yet reveals the complexity of a
pattern that cannot be grasped.  I can't seem to say that without over-using
the word "complex," which Freud might want to talk about...

So, we shift from Spring into Winter.  That Winter lasts only 11 pages, but
it is dense, and the snow falls like thick meal.

   * * *

The signs of conspicuous consumption are all there in the duck shoot
(III,iv), as Bill and Charles have noted, but I'm most struck by what
precedes Capodistria's 'departure' and Justine's later revelation of the
importance of D.C.  Da Capo starts to talk about interpreting a book...

I nearly always take such moments as guides for the reader, such as
Bradley's discussion of _Hamlet_ in Iris Murdoch's _The Black Prince_.  In
these readings of books within books, an author gets to speak as the critic,
but only as the critic guiding the reader with regard to what to watch for
and what to avoid.  Da Capo speaks of Pursewarden's last novel, and his
first observation strikes me as a prompt for the reader of _Justine_: "he
presents a series of spiritual problems as if they were commonplaces and
illustrates them with his characters."  Notably, Da Capo uses "us" to locate
both Darley and himself as unrepentant sensualists with no life beneath the
actions of the body.  Darley seems to leave this position by the end (or
beginning) of the novel, but others remain caught in the city this way.

Is this novel that Da Capo describes _Justine_?  It's overtly Pursewarden,
but figuratively I think the novel in hand fits the glove of that
description.  If so, what are the "spiritual problems" that we see only as
commonplaces?  Are they resumed in a flash as that conflict between Sade and
Freud in the epigraphs: the 'talk' versus the unexamined 'hunger'?  I think
so...

Yet, Freud is here in Da Capo as well when he notes "Every kiss is the
conquest of a repulsion."  I'm made to think of the opening of Freud's
_Three Essays on Sexuality_ in which the perversion and disgust of kissing
(the mucous membranes) stands out.  Desire and disgust are bedfellows here,
which makes one want to explore further, though Da Capo seems content with
his disgust and desire without further analysis.

But, after all this, we get the shoot, followed by the news of Capodistria's
death.  How does Darley greet that news?  "A thousand conventional
commonplaces, a thousand conventional questions spring to my mind" -- this
is not without its reminder of Capodistria's own comment on the spiritual
problems we find represented through commonplaces.  Those commonplaces stand
for a great deal.

So, is it safe to suggest what these spiritual problems may be, those which
we find in the commonplaces of sex and death?  I'd suggest self-knowledge,
desire, and instinct.  I see the loss of self-reflection in pursuing the
"beauty-hunger" of which Capodistria is the prime exemplar (the Sadean
epigraph); the problem of self-reflection that offers up only anxiety,
mortality, and disillusionment; and the instincts that don't cease with
understanding.  In other words, the desire that isn't "me" yet drives me,
the "me" that I don't know about, the "me" I think I know, and the liminal
body that negotiates between the two.

Yet, the first person to flee the city and these problems is Justine, whose
disappearance completes the duck shoot with her letter (another text we
don't get to read!!).  We are unsure if this is Melissa or Justine at first,
but it is clarified in section IV immediately.

And this leaves Darley as our last image, followed by the sagacious
murmurings of the narrator, behind which we might suppose sits the author:
"Somewhere in the heart of experience there is an order and a coherence
which we might surprise if we were attentive enough, loving enough, or
patient enough.  Will there be time?"  The Dutton pocketbook edition gives
us "purprise," but it's the only edition to do so.  How does one "surprise"
the underlying patter?  Can it only be seen awry, out of the corner of one's
eye?

I can only guess that in _Justine_ there will not be time, but by the time
we reach _Clea_, there will be.  The conditional tense seems important to me
too.  We go from "if we were," which places the potential in the
unrecoverable past, to "will there be," which gives us a future.  I've often
seen Durrell being very careful and going through multiple versions of such
carefully phrased comments -- I'd suspect that here as well.

Clearly, they "were" not attentive enough, loving enough, or patient enough.
Yet, there may still be time for the past to change in the future...  Is
that what the 'talk' and remembrance of things past is for?  Perhaps it
doesn't matter since after this talk of the "order and a coherence," Darley
tells us "the whole pattern of our relationship" changed between him and
Nessim.

Darley, in IV, moves ever closer to becoming the interpreter who talks of
his past experience, while Nessim clearly moves to Da Capo's position of
unreflective desire in the Sadean life of a voluptuary.  The contrast
between the two of them is striking, especially as Nessim presses the
prostitutes' hands to his wallet rather than anything else...  Darley's
interpretation seems implicit, and I think the reader's would be clear as
well.  Either way, Nessim is becoming Alexandrian (blind pursuit of desire)
while Darley is about to flee to his island (talking cure), and this spatial
shift only emphasizes the "spiritual problems" around which the novel
circles: the competing poles of desire and self-awareness, both of which
come with costs.

At any rate, that's what Charles and Bill prompt me toward...

I hope you're all enjoying a lazy Saturday morning.  Personally, I've
enjoyed going through the end of the novel over my morning coffee.

Best,
James




From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jun 16 12:13:34 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 15:13:34 -0400
Subject: [ilds] [RG] Justine III.i to III.iv and into the Duck Shoot
In-Reply-To: <C2998928.D3AC%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>
References: <46731243.2020008@wfu.edu> <C2998928.D3AC%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070616191331.LOWS9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jun 16 14:11:59 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:11:59 -0400
Subject: [ilds] T. S. Eliot and cento construction
In-Reply-To: <C2998928.D3AC%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>
References: <46731243.2020008@wfu.edu> <C2998928.D3AC%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070616211156.WGOW23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jun 16 15:35:26 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (MICHAEL HAAG)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:35:26 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ilds] who reads Justine these days?
In-Reply-To: <4673D54C.2090709@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <211376.53180.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

http://neglectedbooks.com/?p=163
   
  :Michael
   
  

slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu> wrote:
  
nudepainting%20copy.jpg


**

The hammer falls, a record tumbles ... for now 

The Age - Melbourne,Victoria,Australia
The painting, titled Justine, depicts Whiteley's wife Wendy on Bondi 
Beach, reading the novel Justine by modernist writer *Lawrence Durrell*. 
*...*
See all stories on this topic 




The Sydney Morning Herald Blogs: Stay in Touch
Hot on the heels of the record-breaking sale of Brett Whiteley's The 
Olgas for Ernest ... Goodman announced yesterday that the large oil 
painting Justine, ...
blogs.smh.com.au/sit/archives/2007/06/culture_whiteley_for_a_beach_h.html 
- Jun 14, 2007

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

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From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Sat Jun 16 14:33:36 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:33:36 +0200
Subject: [ilds] T. S. Eliot and cento construction
In-Reply-To: <20070616211156.WGOW23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
References: <46731243.2020008@wfu.edu> <C2998928.D3AC%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>
	<20070616211156.WGOW23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <46745730.4090408@interdesign.fr>

Can someone please give me an official definition 
of "cento"? You have all used it as a term but 
nobody has been specific as to what it means.
I have now, by your reactions, eperdemic or 
intellectual, I have been able to classisify you 
as you are tying to classify the tallent (or not)) 
of LD. Most interesting excercise.
@+
Marc Piel

william godshalk wrote:

>>
>> Jamie, just a word to push my idea that Durrell is a cento writer, and 
>> the cento appears at different levels and in different forms. Here the 
>> cento is not a matter of close copying, but a matter of allusion 
>> and/or influence. When I first read Durrell, I too was taken by the 
>> allusiveness of the prose. 
> 
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
>> If we're diving into Section III of Justine (all four sections), I can't
>> help but note that after all the Eliot references we've had before 
>> (and the
>> upcoming ending of Section IV with the same ending as Ezra Pound's "Canto
>> I"), that the season is Spring, the morbid season of "The Waste Land."
>> _Balthazar_ opens with a denial of Spring ("And spring? Ah! there is no
>> spring in the Delta.  No sense of refreshment and renewal of 
>> things."), yet
>> Justine's climax is in this absent season.
>>
>> As may be cliched by now on this list, I think there's a coded wink at 
>> T.S.
>> Eliot.  After all, the narrator sees the bodies moving about the town
>> ("Clouds of dried blood walk the streets like prophecies"), which is not a
>> far stretch from the corpses and crowds in Eliot's poem
> 
> 
> ***************************************
> W. L. Godshalk           *
> Department of English         *
> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> 513-281-5927
> ***************************************
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds

From bskordil at otenet.gr  Sat Jun 16 15:26:13 2007
From: bskordil at otenet.gr (Beatrice Skordili)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 01:26:13 +0300
Subject: [ilds] the hydroplane?
References: <002701c7aecd$b8c33cc0$0100000a@DSC01><959323.93960.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com><20070615172142.RSRT23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><4672F38C.7000602@wfu.edu><20070615215248.BQKG7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><46731243.2020008@wfu.edu><20070615233902.TUOB23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><20070616012420.UAVY23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<20070616023254.UGBI23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <007301c7b065$59bccf40$caaecb57@lacan>

I think Bill that maybe Durrell wasn't thinking of Gatsby, but his own 
experience. The place where Durrell probably saw hydroplanes was Corfu. I 
have no documented reference by him, but in Corfu airport there are pictures 
of the first airplane service to the island which was by hydroplane in the 
late 30s I believe--and I think, but I am not sure, that the planes landed 
somewhere up north not near Corfu town (maybe Richard knows something more 
about this!).

Beatrice
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "william godshalk" <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 5:32 AM
Subject: [ilds] the hydroplane?


One of the great mysteries of American literature is: what happened
to Gatsby's hydroplane? Gatsby asks Nick Carraway over for trial run
-- and then the hydroplane disappears.

But it reappears in the Duck Shoot episode, obviously appropriated by
Durrell. In terms of dollars and cents this may be Durrell's most
egregious appropriation to date. It has taken me years to trace what
happened to Gatsby's hydroplane, and I shall be reporting this to
Thursday Next for investigation.

Regarding my cursory collation of the Duck Shoot, it is now complete
-- and I found an added "a" and a few commas that have been removed.
Accidentals?

Have we discussed why the Duck Shoot is written in the present tense?

Bill
***************************************
W. L. Godshalk *
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************


_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds


From slighcl at wfu.edu  Sat Jun 16 18:36:34 2007
From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 21:36:34 -0400
Subject: [ilds] T. S. Eliot and cento construction
In-Reply-To: <46745730.4090408@interdesign.fr>
References: <46731243.2020008@wfu.edu>
	<C2998928.D3AC%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>	<20070616211156.WGOW23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<46745730.4090408@interdesign.fr>
Message-ID: <46749022.2030908@wfu.edu>

> On 6/16/2007 5:33 PM, Marc Piel wrote:
>
>Can someone please give me an official definition 
>of "cento"? You have all used it as a term but 
>nobody has been specific as to what it means.
>


Look back in the posts, Marc.  I submitted the Princeton definition a 
week or so ago.

> CENTO
> from The New Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics.
> Preminger, Alex; Brogan, T. V. F. (co-eds); Warnke, Frank J.; Hardison 
> Jr, O. B.; Miner, Earl (assoc. eds).
> Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1993. xlvi, 1383 p.
> Copyright ? 1993 by Princeton University Press.
>
> (Lat. "patchwork"). A verse composition made up of lines selected from 
> the work or works of some great poet(s) of the past. Homer largely 
> served this purpose in Gr. lit., ranging from the adaptations by 
> Trygaeus of various lines in the Iliad and Odyssey reported by 
> Aristophanes (Peace 1090-94) to the Homerokentrones of the Byzantine 
> period. Similarly, Virgil was the most popular source for centos in 
> later Roman times. The oldest of those extant is the tragedy Medea by 
> Hosidius Geta (2d c. A.D.), while the C. nuptialis of Ausonius and the 
> C. Vergilianus of Proba (4th c. A.D.) are among others drawn from his 
> work. Ren. and later works of this kind included the It. Petrarca 
> spirituale (1536) and the Eng. Cicero princeps (1608), which was a 
> treatise on government compiled from Cicero. Centos are still 
> occasionally published, e.g. in the first issue of The Formalist 
> (1990), and are now almost invariably humorous, the humor arising from 
> both the clever juxtaposition of famous lines into a new semantic 
> matrix and also recognition of the diversity of their sources.
>
> J. O. Delepierre, Tableau de la litt. du centon chez les anciens et 
> chez les modernes, 2 v. (1874-75)
> R. Lamacchia, "Dall'arte allusiva al centone," Atene e Roma n.s. 3 (1958)
> "C.," Oxford Cl. Dict., 2d ed. (1972)
> T. Augarde, Oxford Guide to Word Games (1984).
>
> Robert J. Getty
> T. V. F. Brogan




On 6/16/2007 5:33 PM, Marc Piel wrote:

>Can someone please give me an official definition 
>of "cento"? You have all used it as a term but 
>nobody has been specific as to what it means.
>I have now, by your reactions, eperdemic or 
>intellectual, I have been able to classisify you 
>as you are tying to classify the tallent (or not)) 
>of LD. Most interesting excercise.
>@+
>Marc Piel
>
>william godshalk wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>Jamie, just a word to push my idea that Durrell is a cento writer, and 
>>>the cento appears at different levels and in different forms. Here the 
>>>cento is not a matter of close copying, but a matter of allusion 
>>>and/or influence. When I first read Durrell, I too was taken by the 
>>>allusiveness of the prose. 
>>>      
>>>
>>Bill
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>If we're diving into Section III of Justine (all four sections), I can't
>>>help but note that after all the Eliot references we've had before 
>>>(and the
>>>upcoming ending of Section IV with the same ending as Ezra Pound's "Canto
>>>I"), that the season is Spring, the morbid season of "The Waste Land."
>>>_Balthazar_ opens with a denial of Spring ("And spring? Ah! there is no
>>>spring in the Delta.  No sense of refreshment and renewal of 
>>>things."), yet
>>>Justine's climax is in this absent season.
>>>
>>>As may be cliched by now on this list, I think there's a coded wink at 
>>>T.S.
>>>Eliot.  After all, the narrator sees the bodies moving about the town
>>>("Clouds of dried blood walk the streets like prophecies"), which is not a
>>>far stretch from the corpses and crowds in Eliot's poem
>>>      
>>>
>>***************************************
>>W. L. Godshalk           *
>>Department of English         *
>>University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
>>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
>>513-281-5927
>>***************************************
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ILDS mailing list
>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
>ILDS mailing list
>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
>  
>

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

-------------- next part --------------
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From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jun 16 19:11:27 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (MICHAEL HAAG)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 03:11:27 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ilds] the hydroplane?
In-Reply-To: <007301c7b065$59bccf40$caaecb57@lacan>
Message-ID: <944137.16485.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com>


In this case, the duck shoot, and hunting on Lake
Mariut (Mareotis) generally, hydroplanes refers to
shallow draught boats with a propeller mounted at the
rear.  The lake was and is shallow, indeed large parts
of it evaporate during summer so that you can walk
across its bed.  Maybe I will include a photograph
taken in the 1930s-40s of such a hydroplane on Mariut
in my forthcoming Vintage Alexandria photograph book.

:Michael





--- Beatrice Skordili <bskordil at otenet.gr> wrote:

> I think Bill that maybe Durrell wasn't thinking of
> Gatsby, but his own 
> experience. The place where Durrell probably saw
> hydroplanes was Corfu. I 
> have no documented reference by him, but in Corfu
> airport there are pictures 
> of the first airplane service to the island which
> was by hydroplane in the 
> late 30s I believe--and I think, but I am not sure,
> that the planes landed 
> somewhere up north not near Corfu town (maybe
> Richard knows something more 
> about this!).
> 
> Beatrice
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "william godshalk" <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 5:32 AM
> Subject: [ilds] the hydroplane?
> 
> 
> One of the great mysteries of American literature
> is: what happened
> to Gatsby's hydroplane? Gatsby asks Nick Carraway
> over for trial run
> -- and then the hydroplane disappears.
> 
> But it reappears in the Duck Shoot episode,
> obviously appropriated by
> Durrell. In terms of dollars and cents this may be
> Durrell's most
> egregious appropriation to date. It has taken me
> years to trace what
> happened to Gatsby's hydroplane, and I shall be
> reporting this to
> Thursday Next for investigation.
> 
> Regarding my cursory collation of the Duck Shoot, it
> is now complete
> -- and I found an added "a" and a few commas that
> have been removed.
> Accidentals?
> 
> Have we discussed why the Duck Shoot is written in
> the present tense?
> 
> Bill
> ***************************************
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English         *
> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder
>  *
> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> 513-281-5927
> ***************************************
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 


From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sat Jun 16 19:33:34 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (MICHAEL HAAG)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 03:33:34 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ilds] Jewish cemetery
Message-ID: <769501.93646.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Coming across his father's grave in the Jewish
cemetery -- Nessim, of course, has come across the
grave of Balthazar's father.  Nessim is a Copt and his
father would not be buried in the Jewish cemetery.  

:Michael

From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jun 16 21:16:10 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:16:10 -0400
Subject: [ilds] the hydroplane?
In-Reply-To: <944137.16485.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <007301c7b065$59bccf40$caaecb57@lacan>
	<944137.16485.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070617041608.MPNC9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sat Jun 16 21:27:01 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:27:01 -0600
Subject: [ilds] Jewish cemetery
In-Reply-To: <769501.93646.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C29A1435.D3CD%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>

> Coming across his father's grave in the Jewish
> cemetery -- Nessim, of course, has come across the
> grave of Balthazar's father.  Nessim is a Copt and his
> father would not be buried in the Jewish cemetery.

This is the oddity, and my first inclination when I puzzled at it was to
assume it was Balthazar's father -- I assume Michael is right in his
surmise, but the language still troubles me in this section.  I wonder if
the indeterminacy is deliberate given Nessim's unclear state or if this
might reflect a previous potentiality in the drafts of the text.

Here's what I mean.  Durrell is discussing Nessim seeing Balthazar's
treatise in that moment in the text (a book I'd like to hear more about).
Yet, the "he" and "himself" in that paragraph refer to Nessim...  If we
didn't know what we do of Nessim from the later books, how would we read
that fourth pronoun?  The three preceding pronouns have Nessim as the
antecedent, as do the three proceeding pronouns.  I think almost any
unfamiliar reader would make the reasonable assumption that this "his" for
the grave refers to Nessim.  Only this middle pronoun could be problematic,
based on our knowledge that Nessim is Coptic, which makes me wonder...  Was
Nessim ever Jewish in the drafts?

At any rate, this *does* leave us with Nessim wandering around a Jewish
graveyard looking at the names on the headstones and obscured by pronoun use
-- this odd behaviour might be explained by his state of mind, but it is
still striking.  I suspect some element of the Menasce family has crept in
here, no matter which way we take the scene, and that's a topic Michael
would be far better able to discuss than I am.  We may, however,
___________________________
James Gifford
Department of English
University of Victoria
Victoria, B.C., Canada
http://web.uvic.ca/~gifford
 need to wait for the book to address that topic...

Cheers,
James



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sat Jun 16 21:28:07 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:28:07 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Jewish cemetery -- other considerations
In-Reply-To: <769501.93646.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <769501.93646.qm@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070617042814.MPVE9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From odos.fanourios at gmail.com  Sat Jun 16 21:56:25 2007
From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:56:25 -0600
Subject: [ilds] the hydroplane?
In-Reply-To: <20070616023254.UGBI23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <C29A1B19.D3D5%odos.fanourios@gmail.com>

Bill asks:
 
> Have we discussed why the Duck Shoot is written in the present tense?

It's really an odd mixture of verb tenses.  There are some fairly convoluted
conditional past tenses, some peculiar present tenses, and even some future
thrown in to keep the pot warm.  That suggests to me that this had several
trips through the mill, as it were, likely with several variants with
different tenses tried on for size.

Yet, present tense is the norm, and it's not for the rest of the novel, and
certainly not from Darley's island vantage point.  I don't think it carries
any particular narrative or interpretive complexity -- like Samuel
Richardson realised with Pamela's letters (all tucked into various hidden
alcoves on her person), the book's more exciting in the present tense, even
if it doesn't make sense to write it that way...  I suspect Balthazar's
treatise is in the present tense too, just like my students' papers.

The gist -- I think it's in the present in order to promote it as the
climax.  Part IV switches back to past tense in the first sentence and the
preceding III.iii is in past tense too.  That makes the duck shoot the
moment of excitement, both for plot and style.

Cheers,
Jamie



From michaelhaag at btinternet.com  Sun Jun 17 02:02:43 2007
From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (MICHAEL HAAG)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:02:43 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ilds] Balthazar's father
Message-ID: <105380.65931.qm@web86606.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

I do not think that there is any indeterminancy or
ambiguity in this matter as long as one appreciates
that Jews are Jews and Copts are Copts.  The
construction of the sentence is entirely clear.  On
the same day Nessim sees a treatise or whatever by
Balthazar in a shop window and chances to see
Balthazar's father's grave -- that is the significant
set of circumstances.  Nor is Leila Jewish.  

I do not think that Durrell is hinting at anything
here.

:Michael

  

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sun Jun 17 07:03:37 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 07:03:37 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] Cento construction
Message-ID: <1505575.1182089018010.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I have the same problem Marc Piel has.  The term "cento" has been thrown around, defined, and applied to Justine, but I too don't really understand either the genre, if such, and the connection.  To call Justine a cento, seems to me, rather inappropriate, especially as Princeton Univ. Press would have it.  "Patchwork" is the key term, and Justine is not a patchwork, as I visualize one.  Patchwork means you see the patches and focus on them and their relationships.  I occasionally see some patches in J, but that's incidental to the main image.  Bill called Joyce's Finnegans Wake a cento, FW being perhaps the most bizarre work in English literature and beyond classification.  That comparison I don't understand either.  I guess I don't understand a lot of things.  I would like, however, to know more about Marc's classification system of definers of "cento."  That should prove an interesting cento of ILDS participants.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
>Sent: Jun 16, 2007 6:36 PM
>To: marcpiel at interdesign.fr, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] T. S. Eliot and cento construction
>
>> On 6/16/2007 5:33 PM, Marc Piel wrote:

>>>Can someone please give me an official definition 
>>of "cento"? You have all used it as a term but 
>>nobody has been specific as to what it means.
>>I have now, by your reactions, eperdemic or 
>>intellectual, I have been able to classisify you 
>>as you are tying to classify the tallent (or not)) 
>>of LD. Most interesting excercise.>
>
>Look back in the posts, Marc.  I submitted the Princeton definition a 
>week or so ago.
>
>> CENTO
>> from The New Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics.
>> Preminger, Alex; Brogan, T. V. F. (co-eds); Warnke, Frank J.; Hardison 
>> Jr, O. B.; Miner, Earl (assoc. eds).
>> Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1993. xlvi, 1383 p.
>> Copyright ? 1993 by Princeton University Press.
>>
>> (Lat. "patchwork"). A verse composition made up of lines selected from 
>> the work or works of some great poet(s) of the past. Homer largely 
>> served this purpose in Gr. lit., ranging from the adaptations by 
>> Trygaeus of various lines in the Iliad and Odyssey reported by 
>> Aristophanes (Peace 1090-94) to the Homerokentrones of the Byzantine 
>> period. Similarly, Virgil was the most popular source for centos in 
>> later Roman times. The oldest of those extant is the tragedy Medea by 
>> Hosidius Geta (2d c. A.D.), while the C. nuptialis of Ausonius and the 
>> C. Vergilianus of Proba (4th c. A.D.) are among others drawn from his 
>> work. Ren. and later works of this kind included the It. Petrarca 
>> spirituale (1536) and the Eng. Cicero princeps (1608), which was a 
>> treatise on government compiled from Cicero. Centos are still 
>> occasionally published, e.g. in the first issue of The Formalist 
>> (1990), and are now almost invariably humorous, the humor arising from 
>> both the clever juxtaposition of famous lines into a new semantic 
>> matrix and also recognition of the diversity of their sources.
>>
>> J. O. Delepierre, Tableau de la litt. du centon chez les anciens et 
>> chez les modernes, 2 v. (1874-75)
>> R. Lamacchia, "Dall'arte allusiva al centone," Atene e Roma n.s. 3 (1958)
>> "C.," Oxford Cl. Dict., 2d ed. (1972)
>> T. Augarde, Oxford Guide to Word Games (1984).
>>
>> Robert J. Getty
>> T. V. F. Brogan
>



From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sun Jun 17 07:16:07 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 07:16:07 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] the hydroplane?
Message-ID: <4963201.1182089768222.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From durrells at otenet.gr  Sat Jun 16 23:50:59 2007
From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:50:59 +0300
Subject: [ilds] the hydroplane?
References: <002701c7aecd$b8c33cc0$0100000a@DSC01><959323.93960.qm@web86607.mail.ird.yahoo.com><20070615172142.RSRT23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><4672F38C.7000602@wfu.edu><20070615215248.BQKG7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><46731243.2020008@wfu.edu><20070615233902.TUOB23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><20070616012420.UAVY23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><20070616023254.UGBI23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<007301c7b065$59bccf40$caaecb57@lacan>
Message-ID: <000701c7b0ab$dd4a2ab0$0100000a@DSC01>

The hydroplane depot was at Gouvia, just north of Corfu town, and I think 
was operated by Air France. Today, the hydroplane service once more leaves 
from Gouvia, to Patras, Paxos and Cephallonia. RP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beatrice Skordili" <bskordil at otenet.gr>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ilds] the hydroplane?


>I think Bill that maybe Durrell wasn't thinking of Gatsby, but his own
> experience. The place where Durrell probably saw hydroplanes was Corfu. I
> have no documented reference by him, but in Corfu airport there are 
> pictures
> of the first airplane service to the island which was by hydroplane in the
> late 30s I believe--and I think, but I am not sure, that the planes landed
> somewhere up north not near Corfu town (maybe Richard knows something more
> about this!).
>
> Beatrice
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "william godshalk" <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 5:32 AM
> Subject: [ilds] the hydroplane?
>
>
> One of the great mysteries of American literature is: what happened
> to Gatsby's hydroplane? Gatsby asks Nick Carraway over for trial run
> -- and then the hydroplane disappears.
>
> But it reappears in the Duck Shoot episode, obviously appropriated by
> Durrell. In terms of dollars and cents this may be Durrell's most
> egregious appropriation to date. It has taken me years to trace what
> happened to Gatsby's hydroplane, and I shall be reporting this to
> Thursday Next for investigation.
>
> Regarding my cursory collation of the Duck Shoot, it is now complete
> -- and I found an added "a" and a few commas that have been removed.
> Accidentals?
>
> Have we discussed why the Duck Shoot is written in the present tense?
>
> Bill
> ***************************************
> W. L. Godshalk *
> Department of English         *
> University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> 513-281-5927
> ***************************************
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2335 (20070616) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
> 


From lillios at mail.ucf.edu  Sun Jun 17 08:18:12 2007
From: lillios at mail.ucf.edu (Anna Lillios)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:18:12 -0400
Subject: [ilds] who reads Justine these days?
Message-ID: <467518740200004D0001D14F@mail.ucf.edu>

When I was a student at Bennington College, I took a course on the novel from Alan Cheuse.  I didn't trust his judgment then--and I don't now.  He's not the type of person to appreciate Durrell.  Who's read THE GRANDMOTHER'S CLUB and THE LIGHT POSSESSED (Cheuse's novels)?  Just because he has a job at NPR doesn't mean he is the nation's arbiter of literature that will last the test of time.  His novels surely haven't.

                                                                                                            --AL

Dr. Anna Lillios
Associate Professor of English
Department of English
University of Central Florida
P.O. Box 161346
Orlando, Florida 32816-1346

Phone: (407) 823-5161
FAX: (407) 823-6582
>>> MICHAEL HAAG <michaelhaag at btinternet.com> 06/16/07 6:35 PM >>>
http://neglectedbooks.com/?p=163
   
  :Michael
   
  

slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu> wrote:
  
nudepainting%20copy.jpg


**

The hammer falls, a record tumbles ... for now 

The Age - Melbourne,Victoria,Australia
The painting, titled Justine, depicts Whiteley's wife Wendy on Bondi 
Beach, reading the novel Justine by modernist writer *Lawrence Durrell*. 
*...*
See all stories on this topic 




The Sydney Morning Herald Blogs: Stay in Touch
Hot on the heels of the record-breaking sale of Brett Whiteley's The 
Olgas for Ernest ... Goodman announced yesterday that the large oil 
painting Justine, ...
blogs.smh.com.au/sit/archives/2007/06/culture_whiteley_for_a_beach_h.html 
- Jun 14, 2007

-- 
**********************
Charles L. Sligh
Department of English
Wake Forest University
slighcl at wfu.edu
**********************

_______________________________________________
ILDS mailing list
ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds




From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Sun Jun 17 10:55:37 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:55:37 +0200
Subject: [ilds] who reads Justine these days?
In-Reply-To: <467518740200004D0001D14F@mail.ucf.edu>
References: <467518740200004D0001D14F@mail.ucf.edu>
Message-ID: <46757599.1000405@interdesign.fr>

Fro what it is worth I asked at "la Frac" ( I 
think, french equivalent to Barnes & Noble in NY) 
and the answer was that LD still sells regularly!
Marc Piel

Anna Lillios wrote:

> When I was a student at Bennington College, I took a course on the novel from Alan Cheuse.  I didn't trust his judgment then--and I don't now.  He's not the type of person to appreciate Durrell.  Who's read THE GRANDMOTHER'S CLUB and THE LIGHT POSSESSED (Cheuse's novels)?  Just because he has a job at NPR doesn't mean he is the nation's arbiter of literature that will last the test of time.  His novels surely haven't.
> 
>                                                                                                             --AL
> 
> Dr. Anna Lillios
> Associate Professor of English
> Department of English
> University of Central Florida
> P.O. Box 161346
> Orlando, Florida 32816-1346
> 
> Phone: (407) 823-5161
> FAX: (407) 823-6582
> 
>>>>MICHAEL HAAG <michaelhaag at btinternet.com> 06/16/07 6:35 PM >>>
> 
> http://neglectedbooks.com/?p=163
>    
>   :Michael
>    
>   
> 
> slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu> wrote:
>   
> nudepainting%20copy.jpg
> 
> 
> **
> 
> The hammer falls, a record tumbles ... for now 
> 
> The Age - Melbourne,Victoria,Australia
> The painting, titled Justine, depicts Whiteley's wife Wendy on Bondi 
> Beach, reading the novel Justine by modernist writer *Lawrence Durrell*. 
> *...*
> See all stories on this topic 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Sydney Morning Herald Blogs: Stay in Touch
> Hot on the heels of the record-breaking sale of Brett Whiteley's The 
> Olgas for Ernest ... Goodman announced yesterday that the large oil 
> painting Justine, ...
> blogs.smh.com.au/sit/archives/2007/06/culture_whiteley_for_a_beach_h.html 
> - Jun 14, 2007
> 

From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net  Sun Jun 17 12:31:45 2007
From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 12:31:45 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ilds] who reads Justine these days?
Message-ID: <21064535.1182108706173.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I agree.  Just look at a couple of his perennial choices:  Salter and Didion.  Good writers but not in the same league as Durrell.  Lightweights in comparison.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Anna Lillios <lillios at mail.ucf.edu>
>Sent: Jun 17, 2007 8:18 AM
>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
>Subject: Re: [ilds] who reads Justine these days?
>
>When I was a student at Bennington College, I took a course on the novel from Alan Cheuse.  I didn't trust his judgment then--and I don't now.  He's not the type of person to appreciate Durrell.  Who's read THE GRANDMOTHER'S CLUB and THE LIGHT POSSESSED (Cheuse's novels)?  Just because he has a job at NPR doesn't mean he is the nation's arbiter of literature that will last the test of time.  His novels surely haven't.
>
>                                                                                                            --AL
>
>Dr. Anna Lillios
>Associate Professor of English
>Department of English
>University of Central Florida
>P.O. Box 161346
>Orlando, Florida 32816-1346
>
>Phone: (407) 823-5161
>FAX: (407) 823-6582
>>>> MICHAEL HAAG <michaelhaag at btinternet.com> 06/16/07 6:35 PM >>>
>http://neglectedbooks.com/?p=163
>   
>  :Michael
>   



From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jun 17 16:04:53 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:04:53 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Thursday Next
In-Reply-To: <00c901c7b0d1$202641a0$caaecb57@lacan>
References: <20070617043203.MPYA9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
	<00c901c7b0d1$202641a0$caaecb57@lacan>
Message-ID: <20070617230459.OTSS9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

Beatrice,

Do you know who Thursday Next is? Only in the mind of Thursday and 
her elk could there be a literary theft here.

There is connection between the two hydroplanes -- in the real world. 
But in the world of books -- which is a world of imagination -- I can 
imagine that the two hydroplanes are connected, that Durrell has 
appropriated Gatsby's hydroplane. I was playing off of Chris 
Bachelder's forthcoming short story on Gatsby's disappearing 
hydroplane. You see the world of books really does transcend the 
world we live in.

Bill

***************************************
W. L. Godshalk		*
Department of English         *
University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
513-281-5927
***************************************



From vcel at ix.netcom.com  Sun Jun 17 13:23:23 2007
From: vcel at ix.netcom.com (Vittorio Celentano)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 16:23:23 -0400
Subject: [ilds] who reads Justine these days?
References: <467518740200004D0001D14F@mail.ucf.edu>
	<46757599.1000405@interdesign.fr>
Message-ID: <000701c7b11d$5d225ed0$e3d278d0@vittoriohx7smy>

Did you mean " FNAC" ?

Vittorio Celentano

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marc Piel" <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [ilds] who reads Justine these days?


> Fro what it is worth I asked at "la Frac" ( I
> think, french equivalent to Barnes & Noble in NY)
> and the answer was that LD still sells regularly!
> Marc Piel
>
> Anna Lillios wrote:
>
> > When I was a student at Bennington College, I took a course on the novel
from Alan Cheuse.  I didn't trust his judgment then--and I don't now.  He's
not the type of person to appreciate Durrell.  Who's read THE GRANDMOTHER'S
CLUB and THE LIGHT POSSESSED (Cheuse's novels)?  Just because he has a job
at NPR doesn't mean he is the nation's arbiter of literature that will last
the test of time.  His novels surely haven't.
> >
>
  --AL
> >
> > Dr. Anna Lillios
> > Associate Professor of English
> > Department of English
> > University of Central Florida
> > P.O. Box 161346
> > Orlando, Florida 32816-1346
> >
> > Phone: (407) 823-5161
> > FAX: (407) 823-6582
> >
> >>>>MICHAEL HAAG <michaelhaag at btinternet.com> 06/16/07 6:35 PM >>>
> >
> > http://neglectedbooks.com/?p=163
> >
> >   :Michael
> >
> >
> >
> > slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > nudepainting%20copy.jpg
> >
> >
> > **
> >
> > The hammer falls, a record tumbles ... for now
> >
> > The Age - Melbourne,Victoria,Australia
> > The painting, titled Justine, depicts Whiteley's wife Wendy on Bondi
> > Beach, reading the novel Justine by modernist writer *Lawrence Durrell*.
> > *...*
> > See all stories on this topic
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The Sydney Morning Herald Blogs: Stay in Touch
> > Hot on the heels of the record-breaking sale of Brett Whiteley's The
> > Olgas for Ernest ... Goodman announced yesterday that the large oil
> > painting Justine, ...
> >
blogs.smh.com.au/sit/archives/2007/06/culture_whiteley_for_a_beach_h.html
> > - Jun 14, 2007
> >
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>


From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jun 17 16:14:05 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:14:05 -0400
Subject: [ilds] Alan Cheuse
In-Reply-To: <467518740200004D0001D14F@mail.ucf.edu>
References: <467518740200004D0001D14F@mail.ucf.edu>
Message-ID: <20070617231410.ZAYO23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jun 17 16:39:54 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:39:54 -0400
Subject: [ilds] missing email and a cento
Message-ID: <20070617233959.GYKR7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From godshawl at email.uc.edu  Sun Jun 17 18:35:51 2007
From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 21:35:51 -0400
Subject: [ilds] present tense in the Duck Shoot
In-Reply-To: <20070617233959.GYKR7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email
	.uc.edu>
References: <20070617233959.GYKR7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
Message-ID: <20070618013646.HIBX7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>

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From marcpiel at interdesign.fr  Sun Jun 17 19:46:07 2007
From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 04:46:07 +0200
Subject: [ilds] who reads Justine these days?
In-Reply-To: <000701c7b11d$5d225ed0$e3d278d0@vittoriohx7smy>
References: <467518740200004D0001D14F@mail.ucf.edu>	<46757599.1000405@interdesign.fr>
	<000701c7b11d$5d225ed0$e3d278d0@vittoriohx7smy>
Message-ID: <4675F1EF.2040305@interdesign.fr>

Sorry, yes it is "La Fnac".

Vittorio Celentano wrote:

> Did you mean " FNAC" ?
> 
> Vittorio Celentano
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marc Piel" <marcpiel at interdesign.fr>
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 1:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [ilds] who reads Justine these days?
> 
> 
> 
>>Fro what it is worth I asked at "la Frac" ( I
>>think, french equivalent to Barnes & Noble in NY)
>>and the answer was that LD still sells regularly!
>>Marc Piel
>>
>>Anna Lillios wrote:
>>
>>
>>>When I was a student at Bennington College, I took a course on the novel
> 
> from Alan Cheuse.  I didn't trust his judgment then--and I don't now.  He's
> not the type of person to appreciate Durrell.  Who's read THE GRANDMOTHER'S
> CLUB and THE LIGHT POSSESSED (Cheuse's novels)?  Just because he has a job
> at NPR doesn't mean he is the nation's arbiter of literature that will last
> the test of time.  His novels surely haven't.
> 
>   --AL
> 
>>>Dr. Anna Lillios
>>>Associate Professor of English
>>>Department of English
>>>University of Central Florida
>>>P.O. Box 161346
>>>Orlando, Florida 32816-1346
>>>
>>>Phone: (407) 823-5161
>>>FAX: (407) 823-6582
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>MICHAEL HAAG <michaelhaag at btinternet.com> 06/16/07 6:35 PM >>>
>>>
>>>http://neglectedbooks.com/?p=163
>>>
>>>  :Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>nudepainting%20copy.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>>**
>>>
>>>The hammer falls, a record tumbles ... for now
>>>
>>>The Age - Melbourne,Victoria,Australia
>>>The painting, titled Justine, depicts Whiteley's wife Wendy on Bondi
>>>Beach, reading the novel Justine by modernist writer *Lawrence Durrell*.
>>>*...*
>>>See all stories on this topic
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The Sydney Morning Herald Blogs: Stay in Touch
>>>Hot on the heels of the record-breaking sale of Brett Whiteley's The
>>>Olgas for Ernest ... Goodman announced yesterday that the large oil
>>>painting Justine, ...
>>>
> 
> blogs.smh.com.au/sit/archives/2007/06/culture_whiteley_for_a_beach_h.html
> 
>>>- Jun 14, 2007
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ILDS mailing list
>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> 
> 

From eahunger at charter.net  Sun Jun 17 21:44:07 2007
From: eahunger at charter.net (Edward Hungerford)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 21:44:07 -0700
Subject: [ilds] Justine, before the Duck Shoot
Message-ID: <415f5c3f4bcd984e45872a8fb84267fe@charter.net>

I am submitting a rather long-ish discussion of some of the pages that 
precede the duck shoot in Justine.   ---See below.   Ed Hungerford.
=================
On 6/15/2007 1:21 PM, william godshalk wrote:

We have mentioned the duck shoot briefly -- and then the ducks done
disappeared. Am I wrong in believing that most Durrellians think the
shoot is the climax of the novel? Or if not the climax, then one of
the most important parts of the novel?

   My  Response    (EAH)  The duck shoot is perhaps the climax of the 
novel if it is perceived as an action novel.   But this is really not 
my understanding of the type of fiction that Durrell  was writing.   
Yes, the duck shoot brings everything together in a sense, and allows 
the reader to feel that  'something has happened.'


But why is it important?
---------------------------------------------------- In the discussion 
group,   we arrived at the duck shoot before I knew there had been a 
discussion of the previous 50 pages, --   Was there such as discussion?

In my Dutton pb edition of Justine (1961) from the 1957 impression, 
(presumably a reprint),  Part III starts on  p. 147.   Darley is 
beginning to convince himself that Justine is in love with him,  etc.)  
  The more frequent and intense their love making, the text seems to 
indicate,  the more it is leading us to learn of Nessim?s temporary 
madness.  (see pp. 185-6.)
   There should have been logically, a series of asterisks at page 192, 
beginning with  the paragraph : ?When the time for the great yearly 
shoot on Lake Mareotis came round Nessim began to experience a magical 
sense of relief. ?

 From here, a quite interesting cross-cutting of scenes [episodes, or 
whatever, that last until page 208]--?interior monologues, some of 
them,  and remembered scenes?occurs between Darley and Justine?s love 
making, and their awareness of Nessim?s intense jealousy, which  may 
lead him to desperate acts, perhaps to the murder of Darley at the time 
of the Duck Shoot.  Such scenes more or less ?at the present time,?  
have been  interlarded, sometimes a few paragraphs at a time, with 
memories (and even Nessim?s Diary notes !!)  of the affair between 
Nessim and Melissa, which presumably results in the birth of Melissa?s 
child.
    It is especially this section of cross-cutting in Darley?s 
narration, pp. 185-207, prior to the actual day of the duck shoot, that 
I feel is one of the most important segments of the entire novel, and 
indeed a part of the story telling which makes cross reference to the 
same scene,---which is there much expanded, in Mountolive.  People on 
this list will probably recall that this series of scenes in Justine  
includes the very important ?[certainly  to Durrell, who repeated the 
exact words in both Justine and MO--]  exchange between Melissa and 
Pursewarden on the dance floor  of her workplace caf?.

	 The duck shoot narration, sometimes called a Set Piece by those 
writing about the AQ,  lends pace and considerable strong interest in 
the story, that is, the substitute for a plot, and entertains all of us 
as readers.  Nevertheless, are we not to consider the whole of the AQ 
as a form of psychological novel?   My point is of course that the 
playing off in these specific pages of Justine  keeps the reader on 
track of the interiority, the mental interchange among the four main 
characters Nessim, Justine, Melissa, and Darley.  To those of us who 
admit to a willing suspension of disbelief, we learn all this from the 
ingenious ability of the still unnamed Darley to use Arnauti?s Moeurs, 
Justine?s Diaries, even Nessim?s Diary, not to mention recollections of 
Balthazar and others, including  reports of conversations that would 
have been unknown to Darley if he had not had almost miraculous 
knowledge thru the various written texts that he brought to his Greek 
island, in order to piece his former life, and the lives of the several 
other characters involved in that period of Darley?s life,  together 
again.

	  When Melissa says the eight words to Nessim,  ?Your wife is no 
longer faithful to you,?  (p. 198) she sets in motion  much else that 
immediately follows.  (How did Darley obtain the knowledge of the exact 
words exchanged?  Did Melissa actually tell him?  Did Nessim?s Diary 
let him know this, or what are our other choices?)   Selim appears and 
invites Melissa for  a drive with Nessim,  pp. 199-200.

	?The glances he snatched at her enabled him to study her, and to study 
me in her.  Her loveliness must have disarmed and disturbed him as it 
had me, for her  afterwards described it as a beauty which filled one 
with the terrible premonition that it had been born to be a target for 
the forces of destruction.  It was with a shock that he remembered an 
anecdote of Pursewarden?s in which she figured, for the latter had 
found her as Nessim had done, in the same stale cabaret  ?? (200).

   Students of fictional method:  Doesn?t it seem remarkable that Darley 
can  know exactly what each of them, Nessim  and Melissa, secretly 
thought in the enclosed  space of the automobile?    CONTINUE ;   ? ? 
Pursewarden, who was gravely drunk, took her to the floor and, after a 
moment?s silence, addressed her in his sad yet masterful way: ?Comment 
vous defendez-vous contre la solitude?? he asked her.  Melissa  turned 
upon him an eye replete with all the candour of experience and replied 
softly:  ?Monsieur je suis devenue la solitude meme?.   ?   ( p. 201)

Compare  this to MOUNTOLIVE, NY, Dutton 1961 edition, chap. VIII,  
where the same scene is considerably expanded and placed in 
chronological order as in a realistic novel told by an omniscient 
narrator.   Cf.  Dutton, p. 167.   Pursewarden & Melissa begin on the 
dance floor;     ?You are en forme,? she said.   The whole scene is 
much more lengthy here, than in Justine,  but  lower on p. 167:  
?Dancing again he said to her, but with drunken irony: ?Melissa, 
comment vous defendez vous contre la solitude??  Her response, for some 
queer reason, cut him to the heart.  She turned upon him an eye replete 
with all the candour of experience and replied softly:  ?Monsieur, je 
suis devenue la solitude meme.?  ?
A human barrier dissolved now and they found that they could talk 
freely to each other? ?    (MO, 167-68.)  ---and in MO this scene is 
only the prelude to another 10 or 15 pages of Pursewarden and Melissa?s 
brief love affair.

	When any of you scholars are teaching the Quartet, do you emphasize 
these exchanges, or this dialogue?   I think that it can hardly be 
argued that Durrell just made a mistake in repeating the dialogue 
exactly as  it is said to have occurred, but   that LD undoubtedly 
meant for the reader to remember this scene, when reading the later 
novels in the Quartet,  and for us as readers to imagine the dialogue 
as a crucial , essential part of the Quartet?s psychological action.   
Ed  H

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