From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon Jun 4 06:18:29 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:18:29 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Shakespeare's intellectual property In-Reply-To: References: <3D4D6B93-0F9D-11DC-8785-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070604131815.NVJF3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070604/67e39aa1/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Mon Jun 4 07:01:15 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 10:01:15 -0400 Subject: [ilds] travel and romance In-Reply-To: <20070604002721.LFKX9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <7C06756A-1169-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070603011556.ILZS9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <007001c7a5ae$8a5de3d0$0100000a@DSC01> <20070603163002.HTWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070603164759.HVCF7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <466310FC.8050406@interdesign.fr> <20070603203131.KXGY3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <466329D5.5020002@wfu.edu> <20070604002721.LFKX9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <46641B2B.2040101@wfu.edu> On 6/3/2007 8:27 PM, william godshalk wrote: > > Fussell claims that Robert Byron's /The Road to Oxiana/ (1937) is the > /Ulysses/ or /The Waste Land /"of modern travel books" (p. 108). It > "juxtaposes into a sort of collage the widest variety of rhetorical > materials: news clippings, public signs and notices, letters . . . " > (108). Although /The Road to Oxiana/ has no bibliography, it does have > a thorough index. *Would you say that this is the one to compare to > Durrell's travel writing? * A brief "yes" from my foreign desk in Belsize Lane, London. I recall reading Fussell and then going into Byron. In both cases I found it recast my ideas of what Durrell was up to in /Prospero's Cell /and /Marine Venus/. And in a most curious way because, as Bill will remind me, I believe that for Fussell Durrell comes after the grand epoch of travel closes. And of course as too many have said and will say, we should discriminate books of residence versus books of travel. I do not have those books along or I could say more. But maybe a neighbor around here would loan me one? Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070604/f1eb40e8/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon Jun 4 07:28:40 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 10:28:40 -0400 Subject: [ilds] residence and romance? In-Reply-To: <46641B2B.2040101@wfu.edu> References: <7C06756A-1169-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070603011556.ILZS9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <007001c7a5ae$8a5de3d0$0100000a@DSC01> <20070603163002.HTWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070603164759.HVCF7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <466310FC.8050406@interdesign.fr> <20070603203131.KXGY3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <466329D5.5020002@wfu.edu> <20070604002721.LFKX9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <46641B2B.2040101@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070604142836.OGDP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070604/6d22c511/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon Jun 4 09:07:34 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:07:34 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Shakespeare's intellectual property revisited In-Reply-To: <20070604131815.NVJF3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <3D4D6B93-0F9D-11DC-8785-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070604131815.NVJF3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070604160741.PDZW9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070604/0a2e7b18/attachment.html From gifford at uvic.ca Mon Jun 4 09:57:46 2007 From: gifford at uvic.ca (James Gifford) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 10:57:46 -0600 Subject: [ilds] Shakespeare's intellectual property revisited In-Reply-To: <20070604160741.PDZW9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <3D4D6B93-0F9D-11DC-8785-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070604131815.NVJF3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070604160741.PDZW9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <2bfc74100706040957s6a714550x7ccc60c68029ad14@mail.gmail.com> Hey Bill, I'd always been under the impression that the "bad" quartos were considered pirated editions, possibly by someone attempting to transcribe prior to the invention of shorthand. I, however, am not a Shakespeare scholar beyond teaching half a dozen plays in survey courses, so I'll defer to you on that. I take it my thoughts are a little out of date with regard to the scholarship on the Quartos. It is, however, worth noting the degree to which LD was interested in the Shakespeare Quartos, and in particular those for Hamlet, during the earliest stages of his career. One of my contentions with regard to the textual issues in his works, the multiple revisions and editions, and perhaps even some element in the borrowings is that Old D had already been thinking about this with regard to Shax. Eliot's play on the plays in "The Waste Land," between Hamlet and the Spanish Tragedie, is only and inkling of what I think LD was considering, but I haven't thought it out in detail yet. And, LD's contention that the bad Quarto of Hamlet was a revised version intended for staging with a less complex audience in mind has apparently been taken up in the latest Cambridge edition of the Quartos. You'd have more to say than I would, but the topic is hardly exhausted, and I think it may prove significant -- LD's UNESCO lectures on Shax are fun and hint at how much he'd been thinking about it. They crib Wilde too, but with acknowledgement. Cheers, Jamie On 04/06/07, william godshalk wrote: > > In the Early Modern period, intellectual property rights were sold outright, > with no residuals. > Apologies to Jamie. > > Early Modern property rights much more complicated than my (above) > generalization indicates. Playscripts were sold outright to playhouses and > acting companies. Henslowe's Diary lists the purchase prices of the plays he > bought. > > But see Barbara Mowat, "The Theater and Literary Culture," A New History of > Early English Drama, who notes that Ben Jonson distinguishes between the > stage and the book. He may have sold the acting rights, but he felt that he > retained the printing rights. And so he issued his famous Workes in print. > Jonson's project led the way to Shakespeare's collected plays in 1623. > > More might be written, but this is the Durrell list, not Shaksper. > > Bill > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927*************************************** > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > -- __________________ James Gifford Department of English University of Victoria web.uvic.ca/~gifford From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 4 11:06:29 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 11:06:29 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] infringement: the law Message-ID: <14037352.1180980390020.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> What is the date of the law? When was it enacted? That may be a loophole for LD. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that under these guidelines, which may only apply to CVG, Lawrence Durrell is clearly in violation of U.S. copyright law -- and probably the U.K.'s too. The only question is one of "willfulness," or intent, that is, did he deliberately violate the law. It could be argued that he didn't compile the MS of CVG that Faber publish, in which case I forgive him but I doubt if a court would. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Haag >Sent: Jun 3, 2007 6:11 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] infringement: the law > >The equivocations of academics are a glory to behold; I am gaining a >new respect for lawyers. > >I am looking at The Writers' and Artists' Yearbook, published by A&C >Black, London, and this is what it tells me about US copyright law: > >Criminal proceedings in respect of copyright >* Anyone who infringes a copyright wilfully and for purposes of >commercial advantage and private financial gain shall be fined not more >than $10,000 or imprisoned for not more than 3 years, or both. >* Following a conviction for criminal infringement a court may in >addition to these penalties order the forfeiture and destruction of all >infringing copies and records, together with implements and equipment >used in their manufacture. >* It is also an offence knowingly and with fraudulent intent to place >on any article a notice of copyright or words of the same purport, or >to import or distribute such copies. A fine is provided for this >offence of not more than $2500. > >There are also civil remedies that copyright holders can pursue in the >courts. These include injunctions, impounding books, destroying books, >obtaining damages and a share of profits. > >Although I do not immediately see infringement defined in accordance >with American law, the yearbook does outline infringement as it might >be viewed by a British court, and I would guess that an American court >would not take so very different a view. 'Infringement may occur where >an existing work provides the inspiration for a later one, if copying >results, eg by including edited extracts from a history book in a >novel. ... Infringement will not necessarily be prevented merely by the >application of significant new skill and labour by the infringer.' > >:Michael > > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon Jun 4 11:21:00 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:21:00 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Shakespeare's intellectual property revisited In-Reply-To: <2bfc74100706040957s6a714550x7ccc60c68029ad14@mail.gmail.co m> References: <3D4D6B93-0F9D-11DC-8785-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070604131815.NVJF3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070604160741.PDZW9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <2bfc74100706040957s6a714550x7ccc60c68029ad14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070604182047.NRJQ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070604/eb4108fe/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 4 11:22:58 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 11:22:58 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] EMF Message-ID: <13558021.1180981378577.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Thanks for the reference. I've ordered it and will place it on my shelf alongside your Oxford book. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Haag >Sent: Jun 1, 2007 8:05 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] EMF > >Since then Forster's Egyptian writings have been turned out as an >Abinger edition under the general editorship of Frank Kermode. >Published as ALEXANDRIA: A HISTORY AND A GUIDE and PHAROS AND >PHARILLON, Andre Deutsch, London 2004, it was edited by Professor >Miriam Allott (widow of Kenneth Allott). It is an immense work of >scholarship by Miriam, who checked original papers, variant editions, >tracked down references, and who has produced a book of something like >130 pages of fascinating footnotes. P N Furbank and I gave some help, >and in fact I travelled with Miriam to Alexandria to show her around; >she was working on her Abinger as I was working on my Alexandria: City >of Memory, and we corresponded a lot during that time, trading >information, and visited one another a lot (and drank a lot of >champagne, of which Miriam keeps several cases in supply). I got The >American University in Cairo Press to publish it for the Middle East. > >:Michael > > > >> >> >> On 6/1/2007 10:30 PM, william godshalk wrote: >> >> Alexandria: A History and a Guide (ISBN: 019504066X) >> E. M. Forster >> Book Description: Oxford University Press, USA, 1986. >> >> Is this a coincidence, or did Oxford publish the revision? >> >> Bill >> From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Mon Jun 4 16:21:24 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 00:21:24 +0100 Subject: [ilds] infringement: the law In-Reply-To: <14037352.1180980390020.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4FB94B3A-12F2-11DC-88CC-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> If tomorrow I saw that someone had lifted two pages from my Alexandria: City of Memory for their own book, I would immediately require, at the very least, that an acknowledgement of the source be included in all future printings. And I would get it. That I did not do so with Caesar's Vast Ghost is my prerogative. In the case of Durrell my interest lies not in the infringement or its remedy but in why he does it, how it fits in with other things about him, what it tells us about him. But one can only begin that inquiry once the infringement is seen for what it is. Also I raised the issue because I was interested to hear how academics handle material which is not what it claims to be. It is all very well looking for meaning, significance and intention in a text, but it seems to me a purposeless activity, or a misdirected one, if it turns out that the 'author' has not written the thing in the first place. Anyway, I have found out my answer; academics ignore the problem; it is an inconvenience. :Michael On Monday, June 4, 2007, at 07:06 pm, Bruce Redwine wrote: > What is the date of the law? When was it enacted? That may be a > loophole for LD. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that under > these guidelines, which may only apply to CVG, Lawrence Durrell is > clearly in violation of U.S. copyright law -- and probably the U.K.'s > too. The only question is one of "willfulness," or intent, that is, > did he deliberately violate the law. It could be argued that he > didn't compile the MS of CVG that Faber publish, in which case I > forgive him but I doubt if a court would. > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Haag >> Sent: Jun 3, 2007 6:11 PM >> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> Subject: [ilds] infringement: the law >> >> The equivocations of academics are a glory to behold; I am gaining a >> new respect for lawyers. >> >> I am looking at The Writers' and Artists' Yearbook, published by A&C >> Black, London, and this is what it tells me about US copyright law: >> >> Criminal proceedings in respect of copyright >> * Anyone who infringes a copyright wilfully and for purposes of >> commercial advantage and private financial gain shall be fined not >> more >> than $10,000 or imprisoned for not more than 3 years, or both. >> * Following a conviction for criminal infringement a court may in >> addition to these penalties order the forfeiture and destruction of >> all >> infringing copies and records, together with implements and equipment >> used in their manufacture. >> * It is also an offence knowingly and with fraudulent intent to place >> on any article a notice of copyright or words of the same purport, or >> to import or distribute such copies. A fine is provided for this >> offence of not more than $2500. >> >> There are also civil remedies that copyright holders can pursue in the >> courts. These include injunctions, impounding books, destroying >> books, >> obtaining damages and a share of profits. >> >> Although I do not immediately see infringement defined in accordance >> with American law, the yearbook does outline infringement as it might >> be viewed by a British court, and I would guess that an American court >> would not take so very different a view. 'Infringement may occur >> where >> an existing work provides the inspiration for a later one, if copying >> results, eg by including edited extracts from a history book in a >> novel. ... Infringement will not necessarily be prevented merely by >> the >> application of significant new skill and labour by the infringer.' >> >> :Michael >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon Jun 4 18:40:06 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:40:06 -0400 Subject: [ilds] infringement: the law In-Reply-To: <4FB94B3A-12F2-11DC-88CC-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <14037352.1180980390020.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4FB94B3A-12F2-11DC-88CC-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070605014003.THGW3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070604/5588d83f/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon Jun 4 19:36:59 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 22:36:59 -0400 Subject: [ilds] democracy rather than punishment In-Reply-To: <20070605014003.THGW3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <14037352.1180980390020.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4FB94B3A-12F2-11DC-88CC-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070605014003.THGW3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070605023705.TOYM3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070604/437032db/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon Jun 4 19:45:53 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 22:45:53 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Historical dreams and the great duck shoot Message-ID: <20070605024550.QSLM7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Perhaps it's time to move on from the internecine battle over borrowing to a discussion of Nessim's historical dreams (if indeed they are his) and the duck hunt on Lake Mareotis. You know my recurrent question: why these rather than something else? Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 4 22:32:38 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 22:32:38 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] democracy rather than punishment Message-ID: <7924111.1181021558971.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070604/9f52fefc/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Tue Jun 5 00:10:36 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 08:10:36 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3 -- the great duck shoot In-Reply-To: <20070605024550.QSLM7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <20070605024550.QSLM7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <46650C6C.10501@wfu.edu> On 6/5/2007 3:45 AM, william godshalk wrote: >Perhaps it's time to move on from the internecine battle over >borrowing to a discussion of Nessim's historical dreams (if indeed >they are his) and the duck hunt on Lake Mareotis. You know my >recurrent question: why these rather than something else? > I am heading out to the coast this morning, but although I do not have my /Justine /with me I cannot pass this up. The duck shoot as we have said is different in many ways. It is one of the oldest parts of /Justine/, existing in some earlier state(s) before Durrell knew that he was writing a novel called /Justine/. But having admitted its textual difference from some of the surrounding materials, I am struck past and present by how the insertion of the duck shoot right here in Durrell's narrative provides a departure, a sense of difference in the storytelling style, as if all of that tension built up in all of Darley's endless, recursive retrospecting now comes free--like the clogged drain in his dirty little kitchen at Pombal's flat?--and the necessary movement occurs. When you test the duck shoot against any other episode in /Justine/, you find there is not another section of sustained, straight-forward (at least temporally!) narrative. And it is tremendously effective, both in its beautiful description of the masculine culture of hunting--falling to sleep to the drowsing sound of what Faulkner called "old tales and telling"; being woken gently by Nessim; the first stray ducks and the first snaps of shots in the distance; &c.--and in its canny use of an apparently straight-forward narrative style to couch Darley's anxieties about what Nessim is up to and to disguise the deeper plots. Now for Victoria Station. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070605/474d22bf/attachment.html From Fraser.Wilson at eht.nhs.uk Tue Jun 5 04:34:55 2007 From: Fraser.Wilson at eht.nhs.uk (Wilson, Fraser) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 12:34:55 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Heraldic Universe Message-ID: Dear Group, In the wake of recent discussions around LD and intellectual property, I would like to raise once more a possibility that I aired a couple of years ago; that Durrell's heraldic universe concept was derived to some degree from Christopher Kininmonth; author of 'The Children of Thetis', published in London by John Lehmann, 1949. In the conclusion to this book, he seems to make claim to the idea using deliberately proprietorial language. To quote: " But all the symbols of this truth exist alongside all the other valid creations of man's imagination. This climate - or territory, or plane - I call the Heraldic Universe. The Heraldic Universe contains every man's individual interpretation of all the figures placed there by others as well as those he himself creates; all the products of all the love, the hero-worship and the inspiration of others which any of us have experienced." (Page 216) The "truth" to which he refers is the "mother goddess" of Robert Graves, on whose (now) famous book he draws heavily as he cobbles together a metaphysical framework for his island experiences. Kininmonth was in Corfu by ( and no earlier than) 1937, although his book is otherwise limited in scope to the Aegean islands. It seems probable that he was involved with the 'Partridge group' to some degree. Credited in his acknowledgements are LD, Freya Stark, Walter Marsden, Rebecca West, Patrick Evans, Peter Gray, Theodore Stephanides, William Miller, Francis Turville-Petre, Robert Liddell, Matsie Andreou, Andreas Cambas, Michael Melas, George Katsimbalis, Nicholaos Baltazzis-Mavrocordatos, Philip Dragoumis, Stephanos Syriotis, Stelios Katsantonis, Marinos Caligas, Lia Caligas, R.W. Hutchinson, Alex Mermingas, Aleko Xydhis, Bill Barron, Alan Chalkley, Pierce Hubbard and Thanos Veloudios. We do not know when he first met Durrell, nor does he state unequivocally that he met him at all, as he is credited as being among those who 'helped him to an understanding of Greece'; a feat which one might argue does not necessarily require an acquaintance. The chronology is clearly problematic in that by 1936 Durrell was discussing this idea in correspondence with Miller. Jamie kindly pointed out to me that Durrell's conceptual work on his notion of the Heraldic Universe was already largely in place before the 1935 publication of Pied Piper of Lovers. The facts are that by 1949 a fledgling writer of travel books was apparently claiming some degree of ownership to an idea which by that time had become associated with another writer of similar interests. Both were obviously moving in similar social circles, and with some overlap involving key figures in Durrells life. They may have met on Corfu in 1937 as the likelihood of contact between English speaking residents was strong. Alternatively, it is possible, although less likely that Kininmonth was not acquainted till much later with Durrell, Stephanides, Katsimbalis or the others. We have 1949 as an upper bracket, so to speak. To argue convincingly for a flow of ideas from Kininmonth to Durrell, it would be necessary to show that they had met, or were in correspondence, at least by 1936. A dearth of biographical information on Kininmonth makes this difficult. To argue that Kininmonth derived the idea, consciously or otherwise from Durrell is somewhat easier, yet seemingly at odds with Kininmonths own view. He seems to think that it is his own idea. Could be have absorbed it subliminally from byegone conversation with Durrell or others ? The DJ mugshot reveals an overtly 'decent' looking chap (if a little geeky by modern standards). Consciously stealing an idea from Durrell would not have gone down well with the closely knit group of philhellenes and greek literati that he was presumably eager to impress. Kininmonth subsequently wrote a number of Mediterranean travel books. His wartime service offers some clues to literary associations. For example he was in Alexandria in 1943 from where he embarked for Leros, raising the possibility of contact there with a number of characters mentioned. He was on Samos in the same year, and I wonder if he ever chanced upon Maurice Cardiff, who was to become a friend of Durrell after the war. Cardiff's account of his time as an intelligence officer on the island, 'Achilles and the Tortoise' is published under the pseudonym of John Lincoln. Best wishes Fraser Wilson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070605/e36237f6/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue Jun 5 06:56:19 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 09:56:19 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Kininmonth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070605135604.VJOU9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070605/8a7cc7d8/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue Jun 5 07:01:15 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 10:01:15 -0400 Subject: [ilds] democracy rather than punishment In-Reply-To: <7924111.1181021558971.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.e arthlink.net> References: <7924111.1181021558971.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070605140100.SQPS7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Bruce, I was, of course, looking for a way to reconcile literary borrowing with literary plagiarism. If Durrell can do it, and be praised, why do we tell our students they can't do it, and if they do do it, we punish them? And my students are no where near maturity. Perhaps we just have to live with the fact that Durrell cheats -- big time. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 09:13:57 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 10:13:57 -0600 Subject: [ilds] Heraldic Universe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Fraser, I'm flipping through the duck shoot scene in _Justine_, and the question you pose would require some more lengthy textual digging than I can cover today, but if I were to shoot from the hip, my inclination would be that a potentially closely related circle of authors ended up with two people articulating very similar ideas in the same language... I wouldn't find that surprising at all. The Heraldic Universe is, I would conjecture, pure Durrell (Richard may be in the best position to say more) -- yet, that doesn't brand Kininmonth as a thief. How do you copyright ideas tossed around over drink in a beautiful locale among travel writers? > Durrell's heraldic universe concept was derived > to some degree from Christopher Kininmonth; > author of 'The Children of Thetis', published in > London by John Lehmann, 1949. The link seems clear, but I would strongly suspect the direction of influence was from Durrell to Kininmonth, though I rarely find influence flows in just one direction. It's reflected in the timeline and LD's correspondence, and I would suspect in his notebooks as well (if we can accurately date the entries). As for Robert Graves, that definitely dates Kininmonth later, but since I'm engaged in a project on Graves' correspondence during the period in which he revised that work, we should be clear that in 1949 he's talking about _The White Goddess_ in an edition we don't currently use. The Durrell / Graves links are still rich too, but I don't think any clear influence could or will be established in either direction. And, without returning to the issue of borrowings, that's why we have classical source analysis as a very well established field of study by academics. All of this strikes me as ripe for that kind of work, actually in great need of it. Thank-you for bringing Kininmonth back to the list. I've meant to go back to that for quite some time now, and I wouldn't worry about him being 'bad' by virtue of using an idea he likely chatted with LD about over fruit of the vine. If they did chat about it on Corfu, he may very well have helped LD talk through the idea further, giving them both a viable claim to discussing it. How far we would distinguish what part they each own, in that case, would seem impossible. It would be like trying to prove what part of a travel book belongs to the place and inhabitants rather than the author... Best, Jamie From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 5 10:11:15 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 10:11:15 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] the Quartet and its Genome Message-ID: <9196527.1181063476182.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Dr. Antony Durrell has an interesting question about Lawrence Durrell's method of characterization in the Quartet. Does this method represent an Einsteinian continuum? Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: "durrell at telstra.com" >Sent: Jun 4, 2007 10:38 PM >Subject: Re: the Quartet and its Genome > >So if one followed my suggestion that LD may have played with the >3 spatial dimensions intersected and enlivened by the 4th dimension of >time as a quaternary framework for his characters in the AQ then his >selective sculpting and shaping of the characters of C+B+M+J may reflect >this hypothesis.... thus I wonder if the 4 characters in the AQ could be >seen viewed as having a variable level of exposition....could one argue >that one character is explored least in just one dimension, so to speak, >then a second character being explored in a two dimensional fashion, >then the third character being more fully formed and solid with three >dimensions leaving the fourth character to represent a more >chronologically based and intersecting character representing the fourth >dimension of time who weaves the other three together? > >Those in the group with fuller perspective on the idiosyncrasies of the >AQ personalities may have some thoughts on whether LD may have encoded >and enmeshed the four AQ personas with an einsteinian imprint which >echoes the interdependency of the 4 space-time dimensions.....AD From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue Jun 5 11:21:14 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 14:21:14 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's art of pastiche In-Reply-To: <9196527.1181063476182.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.e arthlink.net> References: <9196527.1181063476182.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070605182123.YAJD9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> It seems at this point that we are not going to reach a consensus on Durrell's composition habits, i.e. not identifying material he has taken from others. Bruce finds all such borrowing reprehensible. Jamie and Charlie want to contextualize the borrowing and thus temper Bruce's judgment. I want to look at this "borrowing" from the student's point of view. On the one hand a student is told not to borrow without footnoting, on the other, the student is shown that professional writers steal with both hands -- and the hell with footnotes. Marc seems to wonder what the fuss is about, and Ilyas finds Jamie's position most balanced. Michael seems to be annoyed that the academics on the list are not standing firm on the issue of plagiarism. Can a major literary figure take paragraph after paragraph of other writers' work and scape judgment? Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 5 12:23:31 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 15:23:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] Durrell's art of pastiche Message-ID: <17389519.1181071411793.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Not mine, as I've previously defined it, ad nauseam. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: Jun 5, 2007 2:21 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Durrell's art of pastiche > >It seems at this point that we are not going to reach a consensus on >Durrell's composition habits, i.e. not identifying material he has >taken from others. Bruce finds all such borrowing reprehensible. >Jamie and Charlie want to contextualize the borrowing and thus temper >Bruce's judgment. I want to look at this "borrowing" from the >student's point of view. On the one hand a student is told not to >borrow without footnoting, on the other, the student is shown that >professional writers steal with both hands -- and the hell with >footnotes. Marc seems to wonder what the fuss is about, and Ilyas >finds Jamie's position most balanced. Michael seems to be annoyed >that the academics on the list are not standing firm on the issue of >plagiarism. > >Can a major literary figure take paragraph after paragraph of other >writers' work and scape judgment? > >Bill >*************************************** >W. L. Godshalk * >Department of English * >University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >513-281-5927 >*************************************** > > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 5 13:16:32 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 16:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] not mine and not his Message-ID: <9772382.1181074592824.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Bill, not my judgment. By the way, I believe you mentioned recently that Durrell didn't much care to travel around. Instead, he preferred to stay at home, read, and let his imagination soar. True? This is important, and I'm glad you brought that out. It's fundamental to his life and work. I'm surprised no one took up the topic and expanded on the implications. I mean, isn't it stupendously ironic that a great travel writer didn't like to travel? What does this say about the man. This reminds me of Frederic Prokosch's book, The Asiatics (1935), a fictional travel book with little or no first-hand experience of the places depicted in the story, a "geographical novel," as Camus calls it. This is the exact opposite of what Patrick Leigh Fermor does, whom Durrell knew. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: Jun 5, 2007 3:37 PM >To: Bruce Redwine >Subject: not mine > >Bruce, > >>"not mine" -- I obviously made a mistake in my paraphrase -- "not >>mine" what? I'll be glad to retract when I know what to retract. > >Bill > > > > > >>Not mine, as I've previously defined it, ad nauseam. >> >>Bruce >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >From: william godshalk >> >Sent: Jun 5, 2007 2:21 PM >> >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> >Subject: Durrell's art of pastiche >> > >> >It seems at this point that we are not going to reach a consensus on >> >Durrell's composition habits, i.e. not identifying material he has >> >taken from others. Bruce finds all such borrowing reprehensible. >> >Jamie and Charlie want to contextualize the borrowing and thus temper >> >Bruce's judgment. I want to look at this "borrowing" from the >> >student's point of view. On the one hand a student is told not to >> >borrow without footnoting, on the other, the student is shown that >> >professional writers steal with both hands -- and the hell with >> >footnotes. Marc seems to wonder what the fuss is about, and Ilyas >> >finds Jamie's position most balanced. Michael seems to be annoyed >> >that the academics on the list are not standing firm on the issue of >> >plagiarism. >> > >> >Can a major literary figure take paragraph after paragraph of other >> >writers' work and scape judgment? >> > >> >Bill >> >*************************************** >> >W. L. Godshalk * >> >Department of English * >> >University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >> >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >> >513-281-5927 >> >*************************************** >> > >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ >>ILDS mailing list >>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > >*************************************** >W. L. Godshalk * >Department of English * >University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >513-281-5927 >*************************************** > > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue Jun 5 13:30:35 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 16:30:35 -0400 Subject: [ilds] not mine and not his In-Reply-To: <9772382.1181074592824.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.e arthlink.net> References: <9772382.1181074592824.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070605203051.ZCKY9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070605/57aef3b0/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue Jun 5 13:40:39 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 16:40:39 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Gwyn Williams' Turkey In-Reply-To: <20070605203051.ZCKY9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <9772382.1181074592824.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070605203051.ZCKY9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070605204105.ZENL9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Williams' book on Turkey was published and is available. I wonder if D may have used it. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 5 13:44:29 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 16:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] not mine and not his Message-ID: <8895236.1181076269709.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Bill, interesting about Durrell but not true about Paul Theroux, even in jest. I met him in Singapore in 1973 or 1974 when he was about a third of the way through his great railway journey. He does have, however, a way of looking at people and things which is highly personal, possibly prejudiced. And people may say he's made up his mind before beginning his travels. But who doesn't have that problem? Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: Jun 5, 2007 4:30 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] not mine and not his > >I've heard it spoken in jest that Paul Thereux writes his travel booksbefore he goes. > >Michael noted: "While visiting Alexandria in 1977 Durrell admitted:'I am extremely incurious, and my real life seems to pass either in booksor in dreams'." Jean Franchette told me much the same about Larry. > >Here's something I wrote years ago: > > >Durrell: The Reader as Traveller > > > > To hisfriend Gwyn Williams, Durrell confided that a part of the narrative hewas working on in 1965 (Tunc/Nunquam) was to be set inTurkey, and, since Williams was attached to the British Council inIstanbul and was himself writing a travel book about Turkey, Durrellapplied to him for help. Williams responded by inviting Durrell for avisit. About a year later, Durrell had yet to appear, and Williams hadsent him "two brochures on Istanbul" apparently accompanied bya map of the city (March 11, 1966). Although Williams reiterated hisinvitation to Durrell, as far as I can tell, Durrell never made the tripto Istanbul. > > Instead, Durrell based his representation of Istanbul and Turkey onaccounts by other writers. > >.......................................... > >By the way, I believe youmentioned recently that Durrell didn't much care to travel around. Instead, he preferred to stay at home, read, and let his imaginationsoar. True? This is important, and I'm glad you brought thatout. It's fundamental to his life and work. I'm surprised noone took up the topic and expanded on the implications. I mean,isn't it stupendously ironic that a great travel writer didn't like totravel? What does this say about the man. This reminds me ofFrederic Prokosch's book, The Asiatics (1935), a fictional travel bookwith little or no first-hand experience of the places depicted in thestory, a "geographical novel," as Camus calls it. This isthe exact opposite of what Patrick Leigh Fermor does, whom Durrellknew. > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue Jun 5 13:57:06 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 16:57:06 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Theroux vindicated In-Reply-To: <8895236.1181076269709.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.e arthlink.net> References: <8895236.1181076269709.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070605205711.WDHN7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> >Bill, interesting about Durrell but not true about Paul Theroux, >even in jest. I met him in Singapore in 1973 or 1974 when he was >about a third of the way through his great railway journey. He does >have, however, a way of looking at people and things which is highly >personal, possibly prejudiced. And people may say he's made up his >mind before beginning his travels. But who doesn't have that problem? I have met him, and I think I recall "the look." Of course, I met him in Cincinnati. And I did like the book. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue Jun 5 14:03:59 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 17:03:59 -0400 Subject: [ilds] lost posting? In-Reply-To: <20070605205711.WDHN7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <8895236.1181076269709.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070605205711.WDHN7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070605210414.WENH7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> There seems to be a lost posting. If anyone notes that their submission has disappeared, please, please send it again. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue Jun 5 14:15:33 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 17:15:33 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Don's lost post Message-ID: <20070605211549.ZXFW3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> I will be out of the office until June 29th. In case of an emergency, please contact Mr. Bill Willoughby, Associate Dean of Liberal Arts, at ext. 2660. Thank you. Dr. Don Kaczvinsky *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Tue Jun 5 15:10:37 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 00:10:37 +0200 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's art of pastiche In-Reply-To: <20070605182123.YAJD9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <9196527.1181063476182.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070605182123.YAJD9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <4665DF5D.2090805@interdesign.fr> Hello everyone, I came across this by accident: on the European tv channel "Art?" tonight; "Jours tranquilles ? Corfu" (quite days in Corfu), an english dramatic comedy by Sheree (sic) Folkson with Eugene Simon, Imelda Staunton, Tamiz Merchant, Russelle Tovey, Mathew Goode... Dans les ann?es trente, une famille britanique fantasque prend ses quartiers d'?t? en Corfu. I only looked at the beginning... that was more than enough. After this monstrous mediocrity, I would accept any brilliant and clever borrowings from a tallented writer like LD. Surely we must put things into perspective. How can such a film be allowed????? This question is directed to the academics and to the people who make laws on intellectual property! In this case intellectual poverty! Marc Piel william godshalk wrote: > It seems at this point that we are not going to reach a consensus on > Durrell's composition habits, i.e. not identifying material he has > taken from others. Bruce finds all such borrowing reprehensible. > Jamie and Charlie want to contextualize the borrowing and thus temper > Bruce's judgment. I want to look at this "borrowing" from the > student's point of view. On the one hand a student is told not to > borrow without footnoting, on the other, the student is shown that > professional writers steal with both hands -- and the hell with > footnotes. Marc seems to wonder what the fuss is about, and Ilyas > finds Jamie's position most balanced. Michael seems to be annoyed > that the academics on the list are not standing firm on the issue of > plagiarism. > > Can a major literary figure take paragraph after paragraph of other > writers' work and scape judgment? > > Bill > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 5 16:57:00 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 19:57:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] Heraldic Universe Message-ID: <23141192.1181087823166.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Aside from sharing a common term, I don't see how Kininmonth can lay claim to Durrell's "Heraldic Universe." Here is how LD defines "heraldic" in A Smile in the Mind's Eye (New York, 1980), p. 95, n.8: "'Heraldic' is a personal word which I apply to art in its most intense expression when it become symbolic and bypasses logic. It doesn't 'explain', it manifests in a mysterious way -- becomes a sort of ideogram of reality. The intimate aesthetic core of a work, its quiddity. The point where prose liquefies into poetry, or sex into love." Or "Heraldic Universe" in a letter to Miller, "the ONENESS OF EVERYTHING, you are included in TIME. NOW FORMS MERGE . . . You cannot define these forms except by ideogram: this is 'non-assertive' form" (Durrell-Miller Correspondence, ed. Wickes, New York, 1963, p. 203). Durrell talks in terms of the Tao, another plane of reality, a spiritual experience, the All, where "[t]he world of definition is exploded" (Smile, p. 89). This is derived from Lao-tzu. "Ideograms" are symbols, which refer to Chinese characters. Durrell fully admits his indebtedness to Lao-tzu. From the description provided below, Kininmonth seems to have borrowed his idea from Plato's notion of forms, which is abstract but not spiritual, as I understand Plato. In fact, I don't see much of a distinction between Plato and Kininmonth, who has apparently plagiarized Plato, who I don't think much cares, wherever he is. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: "Wilson, Fraser" >Sent: Jun 5, 2007 4:34 AM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] Heraldic Universe > > >Dear Group, > >In the wake of recent discussions around LD and intellectual property, I would like to raise once more a possibility that I aired a couple of years ago; that Durrell's heraldic universe concept was derived to some degree from Christopher Kininmonth; author of 'The Children of Thetis', published in London by John Lehmann, 1949. > >In the conclusion to this book, he seems to make claim to the idea using deliberately proprietorial language. To quote: > >" But all the symbols of this truth exist alongside all the other valid creations of man's imagination. This climate - or territory, or plane - I call the Heraldic Universe. >The Heraldic Universe contains every man's individual interpretation of all the figures placed there by others as well as those he himself creates; all the products of all the love, the hero-worship and the inspiration of others which any of us have experienced." (Page 216) > >The "truth" to which he refers is the "mother goddess" of Robert Graves, on whose (now) famous book he draws heavily as he cobbles together a metaphysical framework for his island experiences. > >To argue convincingly for a flow of ideas from Kininmonth to Durrell, it would be necessary to show that they had met, or were in correspondence, at least by 1936. A dearth of biographical information on Kininmonth makes this difficult. > >To argue that Kininmonth derived the idea, consciously or otherwise from Durrell is somewhat easier, yet seemingly at odds with Kininmonths own view. He seems to think that it is his own idea. Could be have absorbed it subliminally from byegone conversation with Durrell or others ? The DJ mugshot reveals an overtly 'decent' looking chap (if a little geeky by modern standards). Consciously stealing an idea from Durrell would not have gone down well with the closely knit group of philhellenes and greek literati that he was presumably eager to impress. > > >Best wishes > >Fraser Wilson > > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 5 16:58:18 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 19:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] Heraldic Universe Message-ID: <25467186.1181087899053.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Aside from sharing a common term, I don't see how Kininmonth can lay claim to Durrell's "Heraldic Universe." Here is how LD defines "heraldic" in A Smile in the Mind's Eye (New York, 1980), p. 95, n.8: "'Heraldic' is a personal word which I apply to art in its most intense expression when it become symbolic and bypasses logic. It doesn't 'explain', it manifests in a mysterious way -- becomes a sort of ideogram of reality. The intimate aesthetic core of a work, its quiddity. The point where prose liquefies into poetry, or sex into love." Or "Heraldic Universe" in a letter to Miller, "the ONENESS OF EVERYTHING, you are included in TIME. NOW FORMS MERGE . . . You cannot define these forms except by ideogram: this is 'non-assertive' form" (Durrell-Miller Correspondence, ed. Wickes, New York, 1963, p. 203). Durrell talks in terms of the Tao, another plane of reality, a spiritual experience, the All, where "[t]he world of definition is exploded" (Smile, p. 89). This is derived from Lao-tzu. "Ideograms" are symbols, which refer to Chinese characters. Durrell fully admits his indebtedness to Lao-tzu. From the description provided below, Kininmonth seems to have borrowed his idea from Plato's notion of forms, which is abstract but not spiritual, as I understand Plato. In fact, I don't see much of a distinction between Plato and Kininmonth, who has apparently plagiarized Plato, who I don't think much cares, wherever he is. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: "Wilson, Fraser" >Sent: Jun 5, 2007 4:34 AM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] Heraldic Universe > > >Dear Group, > >In the wake of recent discussions around LD and intellectual property, I would like to raise once more a possibility that I aired a couple of years ago; that Durrell's heraldic universe concept was derived to some degree from Christopher Kininmonth; author of 'The Children of Thetis', published in London by John Lehmann, 1949. > >In the conclusion to this book, he seems to make claim to the idea using deliberately proprietorial language. To quote: > >" But all the symbols of this truth exist alongside all the other valid creations of man's imagination. This climate - or territory, or plane - I call the Heraldic Universe. >The Heraldic Universe contains every man's individual interpretation of all the figures placed there by others as well as those he himself creates; all the products of all the love, the hero-worship and the inspiration of others which any of us have experienced." (Page 216) > >The "truth" to which he refers is the "mother goddess" of Robert Graves, on whose (now) famous book he draws heavily as he cobbles together a metaphysical framework for his island experiences. > >To argue convincingly for a flow of ideas from Kininmonth to Durrell, it would be necessary to show that they had met, or were in correspondence, at least by 1936. A dearth of biographical information on Kininmonth makes this difficult. > >To argue that Kininmonth derived the idea, consciously or otherwise from Durrell is somewhat easier, yet seemingly at odds with Kininmonths own view. He seems to think that it is his own idea. Could be have absorbed it subliminally from byegone conversation with Durrell or others ? The DJ mugshot reveals an overtly 'decent' looking chap (if a little geeky by modern standards). Consciously stealing an idea from Durrell would not have gone down well with the closely knit group of philhellenes and greek literati that he was presumably eager to impress. > > >Best wishes > >Fraser Wilson > > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue Jun 5 18:01:12 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 21:01:12 -0400 Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- language of the great cycle of historical dreams In-Reply-To: <23141192.1181087823166.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa .earthlink.net> References: <23141192.1181087823166.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070606010127.XGRJ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070605/bcc1bbd0/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 5 19:22:37 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 22:22:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] Durrell's art of pastiche Message-ID: <18744758.1181096557433.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Is this the fairly recent British adaptation of My Family and Other Animals? If so, that was terrible. The only good thing about it being Corfu. If not, this is apparently a rip off of a rip off -- an example of the downhill path of unlicensed borrowings. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Marc Piel >Sent: Jun 5, 2007 3:10 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's art of pastiche > >Hello everyone, >I came across this by accident: on the European tv >channel "Art?" tonight; "Jours tranquilles ? >Corfu" (quite days in Corfu), an english dramatic >comedy by Sheree (sic) Folkson with Eugene Simon, >Imelda Staunton, Tamiz Merchant, Russelle Tovey, >Mathew Goode... Dans les ann?es trente, une >famille britanique fantasque prend ses quartiers >d'?t? en Corfu. >I only looked at the beginning... that was more >than enough. After this monstrous mediocrity, I >would accept any brilliant and clever borrowings >from a tallented writer like LD. Surely we must >put things into perspective. How can such a film >be allowed????? This question is directed to the >academics and to the people who make laws on >intellectual property! In this case intellectual >poverty! >Marc Piel > From slighcl at wfu.edu Wed Jun 6 03:00:59 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:00:59 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Times Online -- Durrell (English Song Weekend) Message-ID: <466685DB.1050902@wfu.edu> English Song Weekendhttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/live_reviews/article1888340.ece Times Online From The Times June 6, 2007 *English Song Weekend* Hilary Finch at the Assembly Rooms, Ludlow Potent cider, Shropshire lads, blue remembered hills: you could be forgiven for thinking that the English Song Weekend was a middle-aged Glastonbury. And everyone who wasn't celebrating Elgar's anniversary in Worcester seemed to have landed in Ludlow for what is one of the most imaginatively organised and adventurously programmed festivals on the English map. The English Song festival is triennial, so a lot goes on between each gathering. This year one of the most significant happenings was the premiere of an enticing new song cycle by Hugh Wood. Greek Songs, commissioned by the Finzi Friends, sets *poems by Lawrence Durrell*, Robert Graves, George Seferis and Demetrios Capetanakis. Distant bells ring through patterns of refracted light; a drumbeat pulses with a heartbeat; there's a tang of ouzo and bitter lemons in the harmonies. Each song reflects its different writer in distinctive accents. Yet the language is that of an English response, bending the poetic measure with great mobility. The singer was the baritone Roderick Williams. When he and his pianist Iain Burnside join forces, particularly in performing the songs of Gerald Finzi, something special happens. Williams's direct, subtle and totally unselfconscious way with the words he clearly loves to communicate carries forward the music itself with irresistible energy. It's almost as if Williams and Burnside were composing the music themselves. Their outstanding performances of Finzi's To a Poet and Earth and Air and Rain framed the new Wood songs and were nicely complemented by a revelatory group of Scottish songs by Francis George Scott. Then two Edward Lear settings by Victor Hely-Hutchinson, sung with deft and tender comic timing by Williams. This concert was the highlight, but I also particularly enjoyed a recital of Dreams and Fancies, given by the mezzo Diana Moore and pianist Christopher Gould: an artful programme of Jabberwockies, seal songs and lullabies from Britten, Gurney and Quilter, to young Quentin Thomas's nicely subversive Three Interludes for a Contemporary Spaceman. Contact our advertising team for advertising and sponsorship in Times Online, The Times and The Sunday Times. ? Copyright 2007 Times Newspapers Ltd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070606/d745e4a6/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 6 07:18:52 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 07:18:52 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] My Family and Other Animals, the Movie Message-ID: <15659659.1181139532538.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The production of My Family and Other Animals demonstrates the difficulties of transposing Gerald Durrell's wacky and poetic novel onto film. It's neither funny nor lyrical. The latter would require imaginative camera work, perhaps the kind the great Japanese director Akira Kurosawa was capable of or the great French director, Claire Denis. The former needs a script and actors that can do more than make the plot appear like a bunch of weirdos doing slapstick. The young actor portraying Larry was particularly bad. In Gerald's book, his older brother comes across as an ambitious writer on the make. In the film, he's simply a colossal jerk. The Corfu scenery was interesting, in a postcard kind of way, but largely wasted. I would like to see what Denis would do with it. (In fact, I would like to see Denis tackle the Avignon Quintet -- that's her kind of weird stuff.) Given a good script, actors, and director, period pieces set in the Mediterranean can be successful. Here, I cite the British adaptation of Olivia Manning's Balkan and Levant Trilogies (The Fortunes of War [1987]), shot on location, which featured the acting of the magnificent Emma Thompson. A tremendous film in all respects. That crew could have done something interesting with the Alexandria Quartet. They'd probably have failed, but it would have been provocative and memorable. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Durrell School of Corfu >Sent: Jun 5, 2007 10:06 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's art of pastiche > >In what sense was it 'terrible'? RP >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bruce Redwine" >To: ; >Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 5:22 AM >Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's art of pastiche > > >> Is this the fairly recent British adaptation of My Family and Other >> Animals? If so, that was terrible. The only good thing about it being >> Corfu. If not, this is apparently a rip off of a rip off -- an example of >> the downhill path of unlicensed borrowings. >> >> Bruce >> >> -----Original Message----- >>>From: Marc Piel >>>Sent: Jun 5, 2007 3:10 PM >>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's art of pastiche >>> >>>Hello everyone, >>>I came across this by accident: on the European tv >>>channel "Art?" tonight; "Jours tranquilles ? >>>Corfu" (quite days in Corfu), an english dramatic >>>comedy by Sheree (sic) Folkson with Eugene Simon, >>>Imelda Staunton, Tamiz Merchant, Russelle Tovey, >>>Mathew Goode... Dans les ann?es trente, une >>>famille britanique fantasque prend ses quartiers >>>d'?t? en Corfu. >>>I only looked at the beginning... that was more >>>than enough. After this monstrous mediocrity, I >>>would accept any brilliant and clever borrowings >>>from a tallented writer like LD. Surely we must >>>put things into perspective. How can such a film >>>be allowed????? This question is directed to the >>>academics and to the people who make laws on >>>intellectual property! In this case intellectual >>>poverty! >>>Marc Piel > From durrells at otenet.gr Tue Jun 5 22:06:19 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:06:19 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's art of pastiche References: <18744758.1181096557433.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002b01c7a7f8$6b5e7930$0100000a@DSC01> In what sense was it 'terrible'? RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Redwine" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 5:22 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's art of pastiche > Is this the fairly recent British adaptation of My Family and Other > Animals? If so, that was terrible. The only good thing about it being > Corfu. If not, this is apparently a rip off of a rip off -- an example of > the downhill path of unlicensed borrowings. > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Marc Piel >>Sent: Jun 5, 2007 3:10 PM >>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's art of pastiche >> >>Hello everyone, >>I came across this by accident: on the European tv >>channel "Art?" tonight; "Jours tranquilles ? >>Corfu" (quite days in Corfu), an english dramatic >>comedy by Sheree (sic) Folkson with Eugene Simon, >>Imelda Staunton, Tamiz Merchant, Russelle Tovey, >>Mathew Goode... Dans les ann?es trente, une >>famille britanique fantasque prend ses quartiers >>d'?t? en Corfu. >>I only looked at the beginning... that was more >>than enough. After this monstrous mediocrity, I >>would accept any brilliant and clever borrowings >>from a tallented writer like LD. Surely we must >>put things into perspective. How can such a film >>be allowed????? This question is directed to the >>academics and to the people who make laws on >>intellectual property! In this case intellectual >>poverty! >>Marc Piel >> > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > __________ NOD32 2311 (20070606) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed Jun 6 07:26:21 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:26:21 -0400 Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- language of the great cycle of historical dreams In-Reply-To: <20070606010127.XGRJ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <23141192.1181087823166.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070606010127.XGRJ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070606142605.ELDJ3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070606/711c5dba/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed Jun 6 10:58:51 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:58:51 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Jonathan Lethem on Plagiarism In-Reply-To: <466685DB.1050902@wfu.edu> References: <466685DB.1050902@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070606175835.FYEV9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070606/7c2c33c8/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 6 11:02:22 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 11:02:22 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- language of the great cycle of historical dreams Message-ID: <17650181.1181152943005.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070606/ebcf6a63/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed Jun 6 11:03:03 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 14:03:03 -0400 Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- language of the great cycle of historical dreams and Borges In-Reply-To: <4666F0A2.6050704@wfu.edu> References: <23141192.1181087823166.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070606010127.XGRJ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070606142605.ELDJ3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <4666F0A2.6050704@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070606180246.GHIJ3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070606/6628bab6/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 6 11:15:45 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:15:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- language of the great cycle of historical dreams and Borges Message-ID: <13732662.1181153746090.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070606/65572c3c/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed Jun 6 13:04:51 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 16:04:51 -0400 Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- language of the great cycle of historical dreams and Borges In-Reply-To: <20070606180246.GHIJ3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <23141192.1181087823166.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070606010127.XGRJ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070606142605.ELDJ3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <4666F0A2.6050704@wfu.edu> <20070606180246.GHIJ3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070606200545.HLJU3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070606/34850283/attachment.html From durrells at otenet.gr Wed Jun 6 14:19:44 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 00:19:44 +0300 Subject: [ilds] My Family and Other Animals, the Movie References: <15659659.1181139532538.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002b01c7a880$677b1bb0$0100000a@DSC01> In what way do you think the 2005 version of MFOA differs (better or worse) than the 1980s version? Many Corfiots would be interested in your answer. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Redwine" To: "Durrell School of Corfu" ; "Durrell list" Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 5:18 PM Subject: [ilds] My Family and Other Animals, the Movie > The production of My Family and Other Animals demonstrates the > difficulties of transposing Gerald Durrell's wacky and poetic novel onto > film. It's neither funny nor lyrical. The latter would require > imaginative camera work, perhaps the kind the great Japanese director > Akira Kurosawa was capable of or the great French director, Claire Denis. > The former needs a script and actors that can do more than make the plot > appear like a bunch of weirdos doing slapstick. The young actor > portraying Larry was particularly bad. In Gerald's book, his older > brother comes across as an ambitious writer on the make. In the film, > he's simply a colossal jerk. The Corfu scenery was interesting, in a > postcard kind of way, but largely wasted. I would like to see what Denis > would do with it. (In fact, I would like to see Denis tackle the Avignon > Quintet -- that's her kind of weird stuff.) Given a good script, actors, > and director, period pieces set in the Mediterranean can be successful. > Here, I cite the British adaptation of Olivia Manning's Balkan and Levant > Trilogies (The Fortunes of War [1987]), shot on location, which featured > the acting of the magnificent Emma Thompson. A tremendous film in all > respects. That crew could have done something interesting with the > Alexandria Quartet. They'd probably have failed, but it would have been > provocative and memorable. > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Durrell School of Corfu >>Sent: Jun 5, 2007 10:06 PM >>To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's art of pastiche >> >>In what sense was it 'terrible'? RP >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Bruce Redwine" >>To: ; >>Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 5:22 AM >>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's art of pastiche >> >> >>> Is this the fairly recent British adaptation of My Family and Other >>> Animals? If so, that was terrible. The only good thing about it being >>> Corfu. If not, this is apparently a rip off of a rip off -- an example >>> of >>> the downhill path of unlicensed borrowings. >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>>From: Marc Piel >>>>Sent: Jun 5, 2007 3:10 PM >>>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's art of pastiche >>>> >>>>Hello everyone, >>>>I came across this by accident: on the European tv >>>>channel "Art?" tonight; "Jours tranquilles ? >>>>Corfu" (quite days in Corfu), an english dramatic >>>>comedy by Sheree (sic) Folkson with Eugene Simon, >>>>Imelda Staunton, Tamiz Merchant, Russelle Tovey, >>>>Mathew Goode... Dans les ann?es trente, une >>>>famille britanique fantasque prend ses quartiers >>>>d'?t? en Corfu. >>>>I only looked at the beginning... that was more >>>>than enough. After this monstrous mediocrity, I >>>>would accept any brilliant and clever borrowings >>>>from a tallented writer like LD. Surely we must >>>>put things into perspective. How can such a film >>>>be allowed????? This question is directed to the >>>>academics and to the people who make laws on >>>>intellectual property! In this case intellectual >>>>poverty! >>>>Marc Piel > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > __________ NOD32 2313 (20070606) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From durrells at otenet.gr Wed Jun 6 14:20:48 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 00:20:48 +0300 Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- language of the great cycle of historical dreams References: <23141192.1181087823166.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net><20070606010127.XGRJ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070606142605.ELDJ3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <003c01c7a880$8d51ff70$0100000a@DSC01> I'm most interested in 'idioletc' - could we learn more? RP ----- Original Message ----- From: william godshalk To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Justine -- language of the great cycle of historical dreams Could it be that Durrell swiped this description from another author? That would account for the change in idioletc. Bill At 09:01 PM 6/5/2007, you wrote: I have just been briefly testing the language of Justine 3.3. And many of the words are nonce words for the novel. Strangely "sexless" is used only once in this novel (p. 178 Dutton 1st). "Farting" is used only here. "Goats" is used three times, twice in relation to Balthazar, and once here. "Marched" is used twice, once here. "Pickled dolphin," as we might expect, is used only here (p.179). "Fox-skins" is used only here. "Tunic" is used twice (pp. 178-179). "Javelin" is used only here. And so on. Some of you who have better ears than I will be able to pick up other differences of usage and syntax between the dream text and other passages of the novel. What is the purpose of this difference in language? __________ NOD32 2313 (20070606) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2313 (20070606) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070607/db609f09/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 6 14:42:10 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:42:10 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] My Family and Other Animals, the Movie Message-ID: <30724260.1181166131345.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Sorry, I haven't seen the 1980 version of My Family and Other Animals. This is the first I've heard of that film. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Durrell School of Corfu >Sent: Jun 6, 2007 2:19 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] My Family and Other Animals, the Movie > >In what way do you think the 2005 version of MFOA differs (better or worse) >than the 1980s version? Many Corfiots would be interested in your answer. RP >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bruce Redwine" >To: "Durrell School of Corfu" ; "Durrell list" > >Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 5:18 PM >Subject: [ilds] My Family and Other Animals, the Movie > > >> The production of My Family and Other Animals demonstrates the >> difficulties of transposing Gerald Durrell's wacky and poetic novel onto >> film. It's neither funny nor lyrical. The latter would require >> imaginative camera work, perhaps the kind the great Japanese director >> Akira Kurosawa was capable of or the great French director, Claire Denis. >> The former needs a script and actors that can do more than make the plot >> appear like a bunch of weirdos doing slapstick. The young actor >> portraying Larry was particularly bad. In Gerald's book, his older >> brother comes across as an ambitious writer on the make. In the film, >> he's simply a colossal jerk. The Corfu scenery was interesting, in a >> postcard kind of way, but largely wasted. I would like to see what Denis >> would do with it. (In fact, I would like to see Denis tackle the Avignon >> Quintet -- that's her kind of weird stuff.) Given a good script, actors, >> and director, period pieces set in the Mediterranean can be successful. >> Here, I cite the British adaptation of Olivia Manning's Balkan and Levant >> Trilogies (The Fortunes of War [1987]), shot on location, which featured >> the acting of the magnificent Emma Thompson. A tremendous film in all >> respects. That crew could have done something interesting with the >> Alexandria Quartet. They'd probably have failed, but it would have been >> provocative and memorable. >> >> Bruce >> >> -----Original Message----- >>>From: Durrell School of Corfu >>>Sent: Jun 5, 2007 10:06 PM >>>To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's art of pastiche >>> >>>In what sense was it 'terrible'? RP From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 6 17:03:01 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 17:03:01 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- language of the great cycle of historical dreams Message-ID: <1940942.1181174581713.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Bill, what's an "idioletc?" Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Durrell School of Corfu >Sent: Jun 6, 2007 2:20 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Justine -- language of the great cycle of historical dreams > >I'm most interested in 'idioletc' - could we learn more? RP > ----- Original Message ----- > From: william godshalk > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 5:26 PM > Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Justine -- language of the great cycle of historical dreams > > > Could it be that Durrell swiped this description from another author? That would account for the change in idioletc. > > Bill > > > At 09:01 PM 6/5/2007, you wrote: > > I have just been briefly testing the language of Justine 3.3. And many of the words are nonce words for the novel. Strangely "sexless" is used only once in this novel (p. 178 Dutton 1st). "Farting" is used only here. "Goats" is used three times, twice in relation to Balthazar, and once here. "Marched" is used twice, once here. "Pickled dolphin," as we might expect, is used only here (p.179). "Fox-skins" is used only here. "Tunic" is used twice (pp. 178-179). "Javelin" is used only here. And so on. > > Some of you who have better ears than I will be able to pick up other differences of usage and syntax between the dream text and other passages of the novel. What is the purpose of this difference in language? > > > __________ NOD32 2313 (20070606) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > __________ NOD32 2313 (20070606) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed Jun 6 16:47:25 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 19:47:25 -0400 Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- language of the great cycle of historical dreams In-Reply-To: <003c01c7a880$8d51ff70$0100000a@DSC01> References: <23141192.1181087823166.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070606010127.XGRJ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070606142605.ELDJ3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <003c01c7a880$8d51ff70$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070606234722.DWLQ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Okay, so I'm a poor speller. It is idiolect. *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed Jun 6 17:12:43 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:12:43 -0400 Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- language of the great cycle of historical dreams In-Reply-To: <1940942.1181174581713.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.s a.earthlink.net> References: <1940942.1181174581713.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070607001247.IXIR3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070606/59c97fb8/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 6 19:03:17 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 19:03:17 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] MFOA and youtube Message-ID: <19894723.1181181797772.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Here's a request from Dr. Anthony Durrell which sounds interesting and possibly feasible. He suggests the movie be made available for all in ILDS, I think. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: "durrell at telstra.com" >Sent: Jun 6, 2007 6:48 PM >To: Bruce Redwine >Subject: Re: [ilds] My Family and Other Animals, the Movie > >Bruce..............Surely yea jest and have in fact been to visit the >mainstream contemporary audiovisual port hole known as............... >www.youtube.com ....this is how our youth are exchanging images and >video around the globe......we need to have some able minded >computolectic in the ilds group to upload all LD interviews and images >onto the www.youtube.com site.....?(International LD Society)- ILDS is >this not the acronym for the gold standard international forums for LD >fans and critics??....DrD From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 7 06:49:42 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 06:49:42 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- Durrell and Borges Message-ID: <33484547.1181224183005.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070607/d11eba65/attachment.html From durrells at otenet.gr Wed Jun 6 21:58:20 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 07:58:20 +0300 Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- language of the great cycle of historical dreams References: <23141192.1181087823166.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net><20070606010127.XGRJ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><20070606142605.ELDJ3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><003c01c7a880$8d51ff70$0100000a@DSC01> <20070606234722.DWLQ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <001701c7a8c0$7860de70$0100000a@DSC01> I prefer idioletc. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "william godshalk" To: Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 2:47 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Justine -- language of the great cycle of historical dreams > Okay, so I'm a poor speller. It is idiolect. > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2314 (20070606) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Thu Jun 7 07:26:07 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 10:26:07 -0400 Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- Durrell and Borges In-Reply-To: <33484547.1181224183005.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa .earthlink.net> References: <33484547.1181224183005.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070607142550.MDQV3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Actually, Bruce, Charlie will have to take credit for suggesting Borges, so that sly Sligh was the slipper in. Innocently, Bill At 09:49 AM 6/7/2007, you wrote: >Bill, thanks for the tip about Borges's "The Immortal." I read >it. The day is "late." So, I don't think that's Durrell's source, >unless you want to say time runs backwards: a story published in >1962 influences a story written around 1955. Nor does the fantastic >tone of the Borges story match Durrell's, which sounds to me closer >to Arrian's factual account. But I must credit your >cleverness: for trying to slip in some evidence on the plagiarism >debate. Isn't that what the story is all about, demonstrating the >inevitability of plariarism? I.e., in the end, everyone's words >will get all mixed together, and there'll be no distinguishing >anyone from anyone else? > >Bruce > *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From slighcl at wfu.edu Thu Jun 7 08:31:19 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 16:31:19 +0100 Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- Durrell and Borges In-Reply-To: <33484547.1181224183005.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <33484547.1181224183005.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <466824C7.8080307@wfu.edu> On 6/7/2007 2:49 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > Bill, thanks for the tip about Borges's "The Immortal." I read it. > The day is "late." So, I don't think that's Durrell's source, unless > you want to say time runs backwards: a story published in 1962 > influences a story written around 1955. Nor does the fantastic tone > of the Borges story match Durrell's, which sounds to me closer to > Arrian's factual account. But I must credit your cleverness: for > trying to slip in some evidence on the plagiarism debate. Isn't that > what the story is all about, demonstrating the inevitability of > plariarism? I.e., in the end, everyone's words will get all mixed > together, and there'll be no distinguishing anyone from anyone else? Hi Bruce. Sorry for any confusion. Bill is handling my notes while I am on the run across Europe. Thanks, Bill! The story you want is "Los inmortales" -- /Los Anales de Buenos Aires/ vol 2, no. 12. Buenos Aires, February, 1947. 1962 is only one of the dates when the story appeared in English translation. I am less interested in influence, but not disinterested if something was there. Rather, I am asking about similarity, confluence--even what Bill calls shared or borrowed idiolect--and just noting that both men depict these "lost legions" (admittedly one group is hellenistic and the other roman) retold in an aprocyphal, dream-like tone. As a "lapsed Classicist," my interest has always been drawn by Durrell's use of tone and allusion in Nessim's dreams. I think that Michael may have written here that there is a deal of Forster's historical vision of Alex being channeled. There is indeed something mediumistic about the prose and that makes me always look forward to it. (While not "classical," some of Scobie's dreams about his brother falling to his death &c. also work in this tone.) I had also read Flaubert's /Salammbo /and /Trois Contes/ in highschool at about the same time as I read /Justine/. When I read Borges's tale several years after /Justine/, I thought to myself here is another little point of confluence for these two authors who shared some geography in Argentina and held contemporary notoriety. Borges and Durrell were in fact in the same room at a cocktail party while Durrell was lecturing in Argentina. I do not recall if Ian wrote about that or told me about the incident so many years ago. I seem to recall that there was some mutual suspcion. But then years later Durrell in one of those inspired moments of eclectic namedropping mentions that his real contemporaries are Borges and Kazantzikis. Again all from my memory as I am in Ghent right now and have no books. Rambling on to the "kuip." Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070607/5aad7b48/attachment.html From gifford at uvic.ca Thu Jun 7 09:33:03 2007 From: gifford at uvic.ca (James Gifford) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 10:33:03 -0600 Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- language of the great cycle of historical dreams and Borges In-Reply-To: <13732662.1181153746090.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <13732662.1181153746090.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <2bfc74100706070933i3e664cd9paebf582f441c100c@mail.gmail.com> > I did make the interesting > reading once, aligning Nessim's "cycle of historical > dreams" against Borges little story, "The Immortal." > ... What is behind their classical > dreams? I think of Flaubert. . . . I'd always assumed (without looking it up -- I hadn't given it great thought) that Nessim's series of historical dreams were inspired by Jung's premonitions of WWI, although now that I casually look it up, I don't think Jung discussed this until just prior to his death, which would put the first publication at 1962 in _Memories, Dreams, Reflections_. I may be wrong about that publication date and/or about this being the first appearance of his discussion of his series of Historical Dreams. Any Jung scholars have an answer? That said, it's a fascinating passage in the novel as a whole, and when I've discussed it in classes, I've used it to connect with the opening war scenes in _Clea_, against which it juxtaposes nicely. Moreover, the "palimpsestuous" overlaying of histories and places figures both with regard to the novels' multiple texts, the relationship between the books, and the potential 'premonition' of _Clea_ even though we know he wasn't necessarily envisioning it while writing _Justine_. Cheers, James From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 7 09:41:20 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 09:41:20 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- Durrell, Borges, and Herodotus Message-ID: <25060797.1181234481200.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I must say, following Charles's journey across Europe and getting his dispatches from the front, so to speak, are the most interesting thing on the ILDS these days. I go along with Charles's confluence of allusions and will throw something else into the stew: Herodotus's account of Cambyses's disastrous campaign in Ethiopia and the loss of another army in a sandstorm (3.25-26). Those descriptions seem closer to Durrell's. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: slighcl >Sent: Jun 7, 2007 8:31 AM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Justine -- Durrell and Borges > >On 6/7/2007 2:49 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > >> Bill, thanks for the tip about Borges's "The Immortal." I read it. >> The day is "late." So, I don't think that's Durrell's source, unless >> you want to say time runs backwards: a story published in 1962 >> influences a story written around 1955. Nor does the fantastic tone >> of the Borges story match Durrell's, which sounds to me closer to >> Arrian's factual account. But I must credit your cleverness: for >> trying to slip in some evidence on the plagiarism debate. Isn't that >> what the story is all about, demonstrating the inevitability of >> plariarism? I.e., in the end, everyone's words will get all mixed >> together, and there'll be no distinguishing anyone from anyone else? > >Hi Bruce. Sorry for any confusion. Bill is handling my notes while I >am on the run across Europe. Thanks, Bill! > >The story you want is "Los inmortales" -- /Los Anales de Buenos Aires/ >vol 2, no. 12. Buenos Aires, February, 1947. 1962 is only one of the >dates when the story appeared in English translation. > >I am less interested in influence, but not disinterested if something >was there. Rather, I am asking about similarity, confluence--even what >Bill calls shared or borrowed idiolect--and just noting that both men >depict these "lost legions" (admittedly one group is hellenistic and the >other roman) retold in an aprocyphal, dream-like tone. > >As a "lapsed Classicist," my interest has always been drawn by Durrell's >use of tone and allusion in Nessim's dreams. I think that Michael may >have written here that there is a deal of Forster's historical vision of >Alex being channeled. There is indeed something mediumistic about the >prose and that makes me always look forward to it. (While not >"classical," some of Scobie's dreams about his brother falling to his >death &c. also work in this tone.) I had also read Flaubert's /Salammbo >/and /Trois Contes/ in highschool at about the same time as I read >/Justine/. When I read Borges's tale several years after /Justine/, I >thought to myself here is another little point of confluence for these >two authors who shared some geography in Argentina and held contemporary >notoriety. > >Borges and Durrell were in fact in the same room at a cocktail party >while Durrell was lecturing in Argentina. I do not recall if Ian wrote >about that or told me about the incident so many years ago. I seem to >recall that there was some mutual suspcion. But then years later >Durrell in one of those inspired moments of eclectic namedropping >mentions that his real contemporaries are Borges and Kazantzikis. Again >all from my memory as I am in Ghent right now and have no books. > >Rambling on to the "kuip." > >Charles From godshawl at email.uc.edu Thu Jun 7 10:42:21 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 13:42:21 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Lethem on Plagiarism Message-ID: <20070607174216.NTXM3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070607/28a88be4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lethem plagiarism.doc Type: application/msword Size: 91648 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070607/28a88be4/attachment.doc -------------- next part -------------- *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Thu Jun 7 10:48:34 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 13:48:34 -0400 Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- Durrell, Borges, and Herodotus In-Reply-To: <25060797.1181234481200.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl. sa.earthlink.net> References: <25060797.1181234481200.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070607174827.NVBY3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070607/55fe1f23/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Thu Jun 7 13:42:15 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 21:42:15 +0100 Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- Durrell, Borges, and Herodotus In-Reply-To: <25060797.1181234481200.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <25060797.1181234481200.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <46686DA7.8090207@wfu.edu> On 6/7/2007 5:41 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >I must say, following Charles's journey across Europe and getting his dispatches from the front, so to speak, are the most interesting thing on the ILDS these days. I go along with Charles's confluence of allusions and will throw something else into the stew: Herodotus's account of Cambyses's disastrous campaign in Ethiopia and the loss of another army in a sandstorm (3.25-26). Those descriptions seem closer to Durrell's. > Just back from a delightful stew of young rabbit and greens down on the canal. HET WATERHUIS AAN DE BIERKANT suits me these days. Gavandum dry-hopping beer is the nice compliment to your rabbit and chips. Take as necessary in generous measure. Then take the walk back to the hotel just as the small rain begins, watching the ballerinas from the arts school look to the sky and scatter in their surprise. > http://www.waterhuisaandebierkant.be/e2.htm Bruce's cast of the planchette feels right. Herodotus predates any Alexandrian armies on the move, but H's intuitive notion of apocrypha as communicating "true" history gets at the vision here with Nessim's dreams. (Let us not question the "Father of Lies" as a possible source for our Old D.) Cambyses' campaign is indeed a nightmare. > When they reported all this, Cambyses was angry, and marched > at once against the Ethiopians, neither giving directions for > any provision of food nor considering that he was about to > lead his army to the ends of the earth; [3.25.2] being not in > his right mind but mad, however, he marched at once on hearing > from the Fish-eaters, ordering the Greeks who were with him to > await him where they were, and taking with him all his land > army. [3.25.3] When he came in his march to Thebes, he > detached about fifty thousand men from his army, and directed > them to enslave the Ammonians and burn the oracle of Zeus; and > he himself went on towards Ethiopia with the rest of his host. > [3.25.4] But before his army had accomplished the fifth part > of their journey they had come to an end of all there was in > the way of provision, and after the food was gone, they ate > the beasts of burden until there was none of these left > either. [3.25.5] Now had Cambyses, when he perceived this, > changed his mind and led his army back again, he would have > been a wise man at last after his first fault; but as it was, > he went ever forward, taking account of nothing. [3.25.6] > While his soldiers could get anything from the earth, they > kept themselves alive by eating grass; but when they came to > the sandy desert, some did a terrible thing, taking by lot one > man out of ten and eating him. [3.25.7] Hearing this, Cambyses > feared their becoming cannibals, and so gave up his expedition > against the Ethiopians and marched back to Thebes, with the > loss of many of his army; from Thebes he came down to Memphis, > and sent the Greeks to sail away. Now if we imagined Herodotus writing /after /Joseph Conrad, we might have the mix. (I am thinking of the fever-talk of Kurtz to Marlow.) Anne Zahlan has read a paper to us on Nessim's dreams that I hope will appear in some form in the future. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070607/ddf2dad1/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 8176 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070607/ddf2dad1/attachment.jpg From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 7 14:55:42 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 14:55:42 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- Durrell, Borges, and Herodotus Message-ID: <19836447.1181253343334.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Amazing guy, this guy Charles Sligh. Whenever he travels, he carries with him a complete set of the Loeb Classical Library (red and green). Either that, or he's memorized it all. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: slighcl >Sent: Jun 7, 2007 1:42 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Justine -- Durrell, Borges, and Herodotus > >On 6/7/2007 5:41 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > >>I must say, following Charles's journey across Europe and getting his dispatches from the front, so to speak, are the most interesting thing on the ILDS these days. I go along with Charles's confluence of allusions and will throw something else into the stew: Herodotus's account of Cambyses's disastrous campaign in Ethiopia and the loss of another army in a sandstorm (3.25-26). Those descriptions seem closer to Durrell's. >> >Just back from a delightful stew of young rabbit and greens down on the >canal. HET WATERHUIS AAN DE BIERKANT suits me these days. Gavandum >dry-hopping beer is the nice compliment to your rabbit and chips. Take >as necessary in generous measure. Then take the walk back to the hotel >just as the small rain begins, watching the ballerinas from the arts >school look to the sky and scatter in their surprise. > > >> http://www.waterhuisaandebierkant.be/e2.htm > >Bruce's cast of the planchette feels right. Herodotus predates any >Alexandrian armies on the move, but H's intuitive notion of apocrypha as >communicating "true" history gets at the vision here with Nessim's >dreams. (Let us not question the "Father of Lies" as a possible source >for our Old D.) Cambyses' campaign is indeed a nightmare. > >> When they reported all this, Cambyses was angry, and marched >> at once against the Ethiopians, neither giving directions for >> any provision of food nor considering that he was about to >> lead his army to the ends of the earth; [3.25.2] being not in >> his right mind but mad, however, he marched at once on hearing >> from the Fish-eaters, ordering the Greeks who were with him to >> await him where they were, and taking with him all his land >> army. [3.25.3] When he came in his march to Thebes, he >> detached about fifty thousand men from his army, and directed >> them to enslave the Ammonians and burn the oracle of Zeus; and >> he himself went on towards Ethiopia with the rest of his host. >> [3.25.4] But before his army had accomplished the fifth part >> of their journey they had come to an end of all there was in >> the way of provision, and after the food was gone, they ate >> the beasts of burden until there was none of these left >> either. [3.25.5] Now had Cambyses, when he perceived this, >> changed his mind and led his army back again, he would have >> been a wise man at last after his first fault; but as it was, >> he went ever forward, taking account of nothing. [3.25.6] >> While his soldiers could get anything from the earth, they >> kept themselves alive by eating grass; but when they came to >> the sandy desert, some did a terrible thing, taking by lot one >> man out of ten and eating him. [3.25.7] Hearing this, Cambyses >> feared their becoming cannibals, and so gave up his expedition >> against the Ethiopians and marched back to Thebes, with the >> loss of many of his army; from Thebes he came down to Memphis, >> and sent the Greeks to sail away. > >Now if we imagined Herodotus writing /after /Joseph Conrad, we might >have the mix. (I am thinking of the fever-talk of Kurtz to Marlow.) From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 7 15:19:50 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 15:19:50 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- Durrell, Borges, and Herodotus Message-ID: <11187151.1181254790840.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Picking up Herodotus's story where Charles left off, on his way to get more "Gavandum dry-hopping beer": "That is what happened to the expedition against the Ethiopians. Those of the army of Cambyses who were sent against the Ammonians started out from Thebes and marched along, with guides. People saw them reach the city of the Oasis, possessed by those of the Samians who are said to be of the Aeschrionian tribe. These people live some seven days' march from Thebes through the desert, and this place is called in Greek the Isle of the Blessed. To it, it is said, the army came; after that, no one is able to say anything at all about them except the Ammonians and such as have their information from them. They never came to the Ammonians, and they never came back again. What the Ammonians say about them is this: when they were on their road from the Oasis, while they were taking breakfast there blew upon them suddenly a violent southern wind, bringing with it piles of sand, which buried them; thus it was that they utterly disappeared. That is what the Ammonians tell as the story of the destruction of that army." (The History: Herodotus, trans. David Grene, Chicago, Univ. of Chicago, 1987, sec. 3.26) Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: Jun 7, 2007 10:48 AM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Justine -- Durrell, Borges, and Herodotus > >Bruce writes: I go along withCharles's confluence of allusions and will throw something else into thestew: Herodotus's account of Cambyses's disastrous campaign inEthiopia and the loss of another army in a sandstorm (3.25-26). Those descriptions seem closer to Durrell's. >This should be looked into, Bruce. Do you have Herodituslying (all travelers are) about? > >Bill From godshawl at email.uc.edu Thu Jun 7 15:21:40 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:21:40 -0400 Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- Durrell, Borges, and Herodotus In-Reply-To: <19836447.1181253343334.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa .earthlink.net> References: <19836447.1181253343334.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070607222153.IQRD9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070607/273cf022/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Thu Jun 7 16:38:57 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 19:38:57 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3 -- dreaming historically and the great duck shoot In-Reply-To: <46650C6C.10501@wfu.edu> References: <20070605024550.QSLM7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <46650C6C.10501@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070607233920.LXMP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070607/8a92555b/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Thu Jun 7 18:59:39 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 21:59:39 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Xenophon? In-Reply-To: <20070607222153.IQRD9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <19836447.1181253343334.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070607222153.IQRD9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070608020052.SCDS9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070607/4c87c460/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 8 06:23:21 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 06:23:21 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Xenophon? Message-ID: <31409245.1181309001787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070608/432d1d93/attachment.html From ilyas.khan at crosby.com Fri Jun 8 02:31:09 2007 From: ilyas.khan at crosby.com (Ilyas Khan) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 17:31:09 +0800 Subject: [ilds] DG Justine -- Durrell, Borges, and Herodotus In-Reply-To: <19836447.1181253343334.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I have lunch with Charles the other day - and he was carrying a lot of bags with him ! On 6/8/07 5:55 AM, "Bruce Redwine" wrote: > Amazing guy, this guy Charles Sligh. Whenever he travels, he carries with him > a complete set of the Loeb Classical Library (red and green). Either that, or > he's memorized it all. > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- >> From: slighcl >> Sent: Jun 7, 2007 1:42 PM >> To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> Subject: Re: [ilds] DG Justine -- Durrell, Borges, and Herodotus >> >> On 6/7/2007 5:41 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >> >>> I must say, following Charles's journey across Europe and getting his >>> dispatches from the front, so to speak, are the most interesting thing on >>> the ILDS these days. I go along with Charles's confluence of allusions and >>> will throw something else into the stew: Herodotus's account of Cambyses's >>> disastrous campaign in Ethiopia and the loss of another army in a sandstorm >>> (3.25-26). Those descriptions seem closer to Durrell's. >>> >> Just back from a delightful stew of young rabbit and greens down on the >> canal. HET WATERHUIS AAN DE BIERKANT suits me these days. Gavandum >> dry-hopping beer is the nice compliment to your rabbit and chips. Take >> as necessary in generous measure. Then take the walk back to the hotel >> just as the small rain begins, watching the ballerinas from the arts >> school look to the sky and scatter in their surprise. >> >> >>> http://www.waterhuisaandebierkant.be/e2.htm >> >> Bruce's cast of the planchette feels right. Herodotus predates any >> Alexandrian armies on the move, but H's intuitive notion of apocrypha as >> communicating "true" history gets at the vision here with Nessim's >> dreams. (Let us not question the "Father of Lies" as a possible source >> for our Old D.) Cambyses' campaign is indeed a nightmare. >> >>> When they reported all this, Cambyses was angry, and marched >>> at once against the Ethiopians, neither giving directions for >>> any provision of food nor considering that he was about to >>> lead his army to the ends of the earth; [3.25.2] being not in >>> his right mind but mad, however, he marched at once on hearing >>> from the Fish-eaters, ordering the Greeks who were with him to >>> await him where they were, and taking with him all his land >>> army. [3.25.3] When he came in his march to Thebes, he >>> detached about fifty thousand men from his army, and directed >>> them to enslave the Ammonians and burn the oracle of Zeus; and >>> he himself went on towards Ethiopia with the rest of his host. >>> [3.25.4] But before his army had accomplished the fifth part >>> of their journey they had come to an end of all there was in >>> the way of provision, and after the food was gone, they ate >>> the beasts of burden until there was none of these left >>> either. [3.25.5] Now had Cambyses, when he perceived this, >>> changed his mind and led his army back again, he would have >>> been a wise man at last after his first fault; but as it was, >>> he went ever forward, taking account of nothing. [3.25.6] >>> While his soldiers could get anything from the earth, they >>> kept themselves alive by eating grass; but when they came to >>> the sandy desert, some did a terrible thing, taking by lot one >>> man out of ten and eating him. [3.25.7] Hearing this, Cambyses >>> feared their becoming cannibals, and so gave up his expedition >>> against the Ethiopians and marched back to Thebes, with the >>> loss of many of his army; from Thebes he came down to Memphis, >>> and sent the Greeks to sail away. >> >> Now if we imagined Herodotus writing /after /Joseph Conrad, we might >> have the mix. (I am thinking of the fever-talk of Kurtz to Marlow.) > > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From durrells at otenet.gr Fri Jun 8 06:54:09 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 16:54:09 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Xenophon? References: <31409245.1181309001787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <005b01c7a9d4$7ce23970$0100000a@DSC01> Try close reading - in the Greek original. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Redwine To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 4:23 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] Xenophon? Another possibility. Since Joyce, why not Durrell? I'll take a look at the Anabasis, but I doubt if it has any farting goats. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: william godshalk Sent: Jun 7, 2007 6:59 PM To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Subject: [ilds] Xenophon? I wonder if D may have been reading Xenophon's Anabasis. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** __________ NOD32 2318 (20070608) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2318 (20070608) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070608/efb03d8d/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Fri Jun 8 07:26:35 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 10:26:35 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Xenophon in the Loeb edition? In-Reply-To: <005b01c7a9d4$7ce23970$0100000a@DSC01> References: <31409245.1181309001787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <005b01c7a9d4$7ce23970$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070608142617.NHYB7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070608/31a539ae/attachment.html From durrells at otenet.gr Fri Jun 8 08:59:02 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 18:59:02 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Xenophon in the Loeb edition? References: <31409245.1181309001787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net><005b01c7a9d4$7ce23970$0100000a@DSC01> <20070608142617.NHYB7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <007901c7a9e5$eecc9ba0$0100000a@DSC01> I like 'thang'. ----- Original Message ----- From: william godshalk To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] Xenophon in the Loeb edition? Try close reading - in the Greek original. RP Actually, RP, I'd check Rex Warner's translation. It appeared at the right date, and it's the kind of thang that the Old D would use -- I think. I figure that the reference to farting is a Durrellian addition. A touch of the old master. Bill __________ NOD32 2318 (20070608) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2318 (20070608) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070608/3a317af6/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Fri Jun 8 09:18:17 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:18:17 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Xenophon in the Loeb edition? In-Reply-To: <007901c7a9e5$eecc9ba0$0100000a@DSC01> References: <31409245.1181309001787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <005b01c7a9d4$7ce23970$0100000a@DSC01> <20070608142617.NHYB7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <007901c7a9e5$eecc9ba0$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070608161809.ODSI7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070608/0b0411ed/attachment.html From durrells at otenet.gr Fri Jun 8 14:11:38 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 00:11:38 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Xenophon in the Loeb edition? References: <31409245.1181309001787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net><005b01c7a9d4$7ce23970$0100000a@DSC01><20070608142617.NHYB7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><007901c7a9e5$eecc9ba0$0100000a@DSC01> <20070608161809.ODSI7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <001b01c7aa11$9a7d0900$0100000a@DSC01> The Kentucky border of what? ----- Original Message ----- From: william godshalk To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] Xenophon in the Loeb edition? I like 'thang'. That's the way we say it here on the Kentucky border. Bill __________ NOD32 2319 (20070608) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2319 (20070608) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070609/52ca8ed0/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Fri Jun 8 14:30:37 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 17:30:37 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG historical dreams and Rex Warner Message-ID: <20070608213059.FEJU23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070608/74499ff3/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 8 14:47:04 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 14:47:04 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] RG historical dreams and Rex Warner Message-ID: <28399913.1181339224682.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070608/a333d5f9/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Fri Jun 8 16:06:55 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 00:06:55 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3 -- dreaming historically and the great duck shoot In-Reply-To: <20070607233920.LXMP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <20070605024550.QSLM7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <46650C6C.10501@wfu.edu> <20070607233920.LXMP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <4669E10F.4010707@wfu.edu> On 6/8/2007 12:38 AM, william godshalk wrote: > * > > *So it appears that these two sequences (the historical dreams and the > duck hunt) are different in tone and/or mannerism. Let's accept these > observations for the sake of argument. What further observations can > we make about these two differently mannered passages? Why the dreams > and why the duck shoot? Could you make a case that they mirror each > other? A round of applause from Ghent, Bill. Nice tracking and trekking in the /Anabasis /connection. Would anybody speak up if Durrell's reading in Xenophon has been known before? Credit to Bill. Very nice. A coup. A good example of how at its best this list might accelerate the Durrellian conversation. The dusk shoot and the dreams are distinct, but not in a paired way. The duck shoot could be a set piece on its own--it does not rely on retrospect &c.--and I followed that theory when I suggested it for inclusion as one of the representative Durrell texts in the new Broadview anthology of British Literature. (I also selected Darley's opening impressions of Alex and Scobie's anecdotes from /Justine/.) But the editorial board stood hard against including /any /Durrell--this resistance came despite pronounced advocacy from the highest level--it seemed a matter of principle that Durrell was not worthy--so we still have no major text in an anthology. Thinking about all of this while away from my books, I also recall thinking that Durrell's flashing back and forth between Melissa/Nessim and Darley/ Justine is narrative of a high order. A sense of singularity, coalescence of the various strands of the possible, and that sense of a quickening is important arriving right before the duck shoot, where the situation is primed to explode. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070609/e654f433/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Fri Jun 8 17:50:55 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 20:50:55 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Xenophon in the Loeb edition? In-Reply-To: <001b01c7aa11$9a7d0900$0100000a@DSC01> References: <31409245.1181309001787.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <005b01c7a9d4$7ce23970$0100000a@DSC01> <20070608142617.NHYB7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <007901c7a9e5$eecc9ba0$0100000a@DSC01> <20070608161809.ODSI7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <001b01c7aa11$9a7d0900$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070609005046.QUWG7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070608/505ddaa0/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Fri Jun 8 18:53:01 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 21:53:01 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG historical dreams and Rex Warner In-Reply-To: <20070608213059.FEJU23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.emai l.uc.edu> References: <20070608213059.FEJU23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070609015243.GBME23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070608/33d8ac5b/attachment.html From dtart at bigpond.net.au Fri Jun 8 15:47:29 2007 From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 08:47:29 +1000 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Cut and Paste? Message-ID: <012101c7aa1e$fedf8230$0302a8c0@MumandDad> As well as all the other things Durrell was; drinker, thinker, eccentric civil servant etc, etc, he was a professional writer and, apart from the odd jobs he had from time to time, his income came from the stories he sold. Now, when I working freelance years ago, I was told (advised) by a couple of magazine editors to minimise the cost it takes to get a story. Use the phone not the car, don't re-invent the wheel, so to speak, avoid cliches and write stuff people want to read. I wrote a big story on the mushroom industry west of Sydney without leaving my office (not that you'd want to read that!) Durrell was well aware of the formula for 'pot boilers' and admitted to writing a couple, but what he does is add a uniquness to them (avoiding cliches) based in his own experience and reflections - on his time in Corfu and on his time in Rhodes and later Cyprus. he combines memories of the people and landscapes that he experienced in those places and intermingles them with ready to hand scholarship on the history and the cullture of the places he spent time in (as opposed to traveling to a location specifically to write about it). If you are a writer this saves time and effort. You write about the interesteing things you experienced while there, paint a poetic picture of the lanscape and read up on and present histories of the place and its culture for the reader. With his island books and perhaps with his novel cycles this style of writing enabled Durrell to write without moving beyond the comfort of home, library and tavern. Notoriously money conscious, this method saved time and money on the writing process. If his memories of, for example, the evening play of Karaghiosis in Prospero's Cell, or the Festival of Soroni in Reflections on a Marine Venus, were a little vague due to say an excess of wine, he could always read up on the festival and flesh out the experience from that. What make Durrell so good is the strength of his personality, his keen eye for an interesting angle, his deep, almost painterly eye for spirit of place and the skillful way he blends personal experience with history and cultural empathy. I always feel I am in Greece living as he did and that the count D and Gideon are my fiends also and that I too have drunk conjac under the tree of idleness. Denise Tart & David Green 16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070609/4d742a43/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Fri Jun 8 19:56:38 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 22:56:38 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3 -- dreaming historically and the great duck shoot In-Reply-To: <4669E10F.4010707@wfu.edu> References: <20070605024550.QSLM7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <46650C6C.10501@wfu.edu> <20070607233920.LXMP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <4669E10F.4010707@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070609025620.RHNY9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070608/e9ee50d3/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 8 20:52:39 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 20:52:39 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Cut and Paste? Message-ID: <7891120.1181361159976.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Yes to all this. Looking critically at his method of composition is not to dismiss his great accomplishments. His writings will live not because of the spirit of place but because of the spirit he imbues in a place. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Denise Tart & David Green >Sent: Jun 8, 2007 3:47 PM >To: Durrel >Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Cut and Paste? > >As well as all the other things Durrell was; drinker, thinker, eccentric civil servant etc, etc, he was a professional writer and, apart from the odd jobs he had from time to time, his income came from the stories he sold. Now, when I working freelance years ago, I was told (advised) by a couple of magazine editors to minimise the cost it takes to get a story. Use the phone not the car, don't re-invent the wheel, so to speak, avoid cliches and write stuff people want to read. I wrote a big story on the mushroom industry west of Sydney without leaving my office (not that you'd want to read that!) > >Durrell was well aware of the formula for 'pot boilers' and admitted to writing a couple, but what he does is add a uniquness to them (avoiding cliches) based in his own experience and reflections - on his time in Corfu and on his time in Rhodes and later Cyprus. he combines memories of the people and landscapes that he experienced in those places and intermingles them with ready to hand scholarship on the history and the cullture of the places he spent time in (as opposed to traveling to a location specifically to write about it). If you are a writer this saves time and effort. You write about the interesteing things you experienced while there, paint a poetic picture of the lanscape and read up on and present histories of the place and its culture for the reader. > >With his island books and perhaps with his novel cycles this style of writing enabled Durrell to write without moving beyond the comfort of home, library and tavern. Notoriously money conscious, this method saved time and money on the writing process. If his memories of, for example, the evening play of Karaghiosis in Prospero's Cell, or the Festival of Soroni in Reflections on a Marine Venus, were a little vague due to say an excess of wine, he could always read up on the festival and flesh out the experience from that. > >What make Durrell so good is the strength of his personality, his keen eye for an interesting angle, his deep, almost painterly eye for spirit of place and the skillful way he blends personal experience with history and cultural empathy. I always feel I am in Greece living as he did and that the count D and Gideon are my fiends also and that I too have drunk conjac under the tree of idleness. > >Denise Tart & David Green >16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 > >+61 2 9564 6165 >0412 707 625 >dtart at bigpond.net.au From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 8 21:26:45 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 21:26:45 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Xenophon and Thucydides Message-ID: <18514050.1181363206165.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070608/2b937c94/attachment.html From dtart at bigpond.net.au Sat Jun 9 00:14:15 2007 From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 17:14:15 +1000 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Cut and Paste? References: <7891120.1181361159976.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <015101c7aa65$ca61e2e0$0302a8c0@MumandDad> Bruce, Both! DG Denise Tart & David Green 16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Redwine" To: Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 1:52 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's Cut and Paste? > Yes to all this. Looking critically at his method of composition is not > to dismiss his great accomplishments. His writings will live not because > of the spirit of place but because of the spirit he imbues in a place. > > Bruce > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 9 12:38:21 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 15:38:21 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine In-Reply-To: <7891120.1181361159976.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa .earthlink.net> References: <7891120.1181361159976.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070609193802.IGFC23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Douglas Bush, my dissertation director (or he would have been, but we had "theses" rather than "dissertations") used to say that similarities were less interesting that differences. I think I've already made that comment, but it's still a good thought. The similarities between Warner and Durrell simply tell us that Durrell took material from Warner. But this is one of Durrell's additions to Warner: "Macedonian slingers-of-the-line farting like goats." Warner has no farting goats, nor no slingers-of-the-line. For some years after I first read this line, I had no idea what Durrell meant by "farting like goats." But in 1964-1965 I had the distinct pleasure of living next door to a herd of goats. A goat fart sounds like a .22 rifle shot. Rather disconcerting the first time you hear it from the adjoining field. But why do Durrell's slingers fart like goats? Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sat Jun 9 12:59:30 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 12:59:30 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] RG Justine Message-ID: <4172205.1181419171135.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Because they're smelly and like to cut a fart. If you've ever marched in formation, you know this happens all the time, and the description is apt, goats too being a herd animal. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: Jun 9, 2007 12:38 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] RG Justine > >Douglas Bush, my dissertation director (or he would have been, but we >had "theses" rather than "dissertations") used to say that >similarities were less interesting that differences. I think I've >already made that comment, but it's still a good thought. The >similarities between Warner and Durrell simply tell us that Durrell >took material from Warner. > >But this is one of Durrell's additions to Warner: "Macedonian >slingers-of-the-line farting like goats." Warner has no farting >goats, nor no slingers-of-the-line. > >For some years after I first read this line, I had no idea what >Durrell meant by "farting like goats." But in 1964-1965 I had the >distinct pleasure of living next door to a herd of goats. A goat fart >sounds like a .22 rifle shot. Rather disconcerting the first time you >hear it from the adjoining field. > >But why do Durrell's slingers fart like goats? > >Bill >*************************************** >W. L. Godshalk * >Department of English * >University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >513-281-5927 >*************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 9 13:42:52 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:42:52 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Terry Eagleton's The Meaning of Life In-Reply-To: <20070609193802.IGFC23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.emai l.uc.edu> References: <7891120.1181361159976.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070609193802.IGFC23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070609204243.IMKB23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070609/a9a78346/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sat Jun 9 14:21:57 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 14:21:57 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Terry Eagleton's The Meaning of Life Message-ID: <20903494.1181424117923.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070609/bd0b4b04/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 9 14:24:23 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 17:24:23 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Xenophon's influence ends In-Reply-To: <4172205.1181419171135.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa .earthlink.net> References: <4172205.1181419171135.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070609212403.TQOY9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070609/d9d8423c/attachment.html From ilyas.khan at crosby.com Sat Jun 9 14:15:01 2007 From: ilyas.khan at crosby.com (Ilyas Khan) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 05:15:01 +0800 Subject: [ilds] Terry Eagleton's The Meaning of Life In-Reply-To: <20070609204243.IMKB23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: Or, before you spend your shekels you can have a read of this review (not badly written) http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/politicsphilosophyandsociety/0,,2030253, 00.html On 6/10/07 4:42 AM, "william godshalk" wrote: > I don't think we mentioned that Terry Eagleton's latest book The Meaning of > Life (Oxford UP) is 187pp. long and sells for $19.95 American. For less than > 20 bucks and fewer than 200 pages, do you think you're going to find out? Step > right up, disentangle your wallet, peel off a coupla tens, and find out. No > doubt your local bookie will give you sterling odds. > > Bill > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070610/dbc8d8db/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sat Jun 9 15:13:02 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 15:13:02 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Xenophon's influence ends Message-ID: <29950717.1181427182595.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070609/ec3d2a7b/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 9 17:18:06 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 20:18:06 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Xenophon's influence ends -- who next? In-Reply-To: <29950717.1181427182595.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.s a.earthlink.net> References: <29950717.1181427182595.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070610001756.TZIY9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070609/422259fa/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 9 18:59:51 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 21:59:51 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- the rose in her bed In-Reply-To: <20070610001756.TZIY9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <29950717.1181427182595.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070610001756.TZIY9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070610015934.JDEG23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> "... knew that the quiet man there was thinking of the rose found in her bed on the day of the Games. ..." (p. 179 Dutton first). Even if we can't identify the source of this image, we can still consider what the image of the rose in her bed means. For me, it's a haunting image -- hardly one of happiness. Winners in the games where often given roses as a symbol of success. Is the quiet man grieving that his lover has slept with one of the winners? The rose was Sappho's flower. Is the rose a symbol of lesbian love? Is it a metaphor for blood? (If you think I'm thinking of Hardy, I'm not.) Later Nessim is "lost in the contemplation of a rose lying upon an empty plate before him" (p. 182). Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From holdsworth at rogers.com Sat Jun 9 19:07:56 2007 From: holdsworth at rogers.com (David Holdsworth) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 22:07:56 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Xenophon's influence ends -- who next? In-Reply-To: <20070610001756.TZIY9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <007401c7ab04$29df2fe0$6501a8c0@D13W0611> This paragraph in Justine "with a column on the march.. open a major artery" sounds to me more like references to ancient Greece than to Petronius. The only seemingly direct reference to a Greek text I can come up with is the following from Aristophanes' Clouds: Durrell: ...schoolboys in naked ranks marching two abreast at dawn to the school of the Harpmaster, through falling snow as thick as meal. Aristophanes (Loeb 960-965): To hear then prepare of the discipline rare which flourished in Athens of yore When Honour and Truth were in fashion with youth and Sobriety bloomed on our shore First of all the old rule was preserved in our school that "boys should be seen and not heard" And then to the home of the Harpist would come decorous in action and word All the lads of one town, though the snow peppered down, in spite of all wind and all weather This doesn't explain the full paragraph in Durrell, however, nor is it necessarily a direct Durrell quote from Aristophanes. The "man with a torn ear" seems a reference to something the reader is expected to recognize. Maybe Bruce is right and there are several sources here. Any more ideas? David Holdsworth *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070609/3a8b9be6/attachment.html From eahunger at charter.net Sat Jun 9 19:14:26 2007 From: eahunger at charter.net (Edward Hungerford) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 19:14:26 -0700 Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 3, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As to portions cut out of the MSS. version of Marine Venus : ---------------------------------------------------------------- On Jun 3, 2007, at 12:00 PM, ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca wrote: > > Message: 26 > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 01:29:26 +0100 > From: Michael Haag > Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson > To: gifford at uvic.ca, ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Message-ID: <7C06756A-1169-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C at btinternet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > Is the pre-cuts MS of Marine Venus lying around anywhere? Any idea, > James, of the precise nature of the cuts? > > :Michael ---------------------------- I have been away for ten days in Washington State, and am catching up on past ILDS messages. In the question of whether large chunks cut out of Marine Venus, I recall that David Roessell, (name sp?) had investigated this closely , and he had talked with --or had correspondence with --the woman who was an editor at Faber & Faber, Anne Ridler, who did the editorial work. I gathered that the MS. was shorted by considerable --30 or 40 % maybe, --(I'm guessing) and that, yes, no doubt these portions cut out would probably have survived somewhere in the archives. This all came out at one of the Durrell Society's meetings, ten or a dozen years ago. By checking the index to Ian MacNiven's biography, much of this story emerges quite plainly. See: MacNiven, 373 : "His [Durrell's] discontent was increased by his seemingly eternal need to revise Reflections on a Marine Venus, which the Faber editors had told him lacked shape and pace and must be cut by almost half. His staunch friend Anne Ridler, still Eliot's assistant at Faber, would eventually come to h is rescue ..." etc. etc. If I were doing any research on this issue, which I am not, I would talk to MacNiven and determine where the correspondence with Anne Ridler is located [no doubt at the Faber publishing offices?], and there does seem to be quite a job of research to be done on this whole subject. Anne Ridler may still be a living presence, too, for all that I know. If she is retired and living in London, why not talk to her? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2245 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070609/4f49007e/attachment.bin From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 9 19:37:17 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:37:17 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Aristophanes (Loeb 960-965) In-Reply-To: <007401c7ab04$29df2fe0$6501a8c0@D13W0611> References: <20070610001756.TZIY9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <007401c7ab04$29df2fe0$6501a8c0@D13W0611> Message-ID: <20070610023657.UIMN9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070609/00be19e1/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 9 19:41:04 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:41:04 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Ridler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070610024054.UISO9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> >Anne Ridler died in 2001. *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 9 19:43:11 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:43:11 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Aristophanes (Loeb 960-965) In-Reply-To: <20070610023657.UIMN9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <20070610001756.TZIY9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <007401c7ab04$29df2fe0$6501a8c0@D13W0611> <20070610023657.UIMN9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070610024251.TVWO7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070609/754d7b27/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sat Jun 9 20:28:17 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 20:28:17 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Aristophanes? Message-ID: <14796065.1181446097743.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I trust David's ear here, who is a Classicist. I agree. Durrell is probably dipping into the Greeks, probably Aristophanes, who, after all, is a soulmate of Durrell's -- one who one would enjoy slingers farting like goats. (The Greeks as a whole seems to enjoy a good fart -- I recall that the reconstruction of the arrangement of oarsmen on a Greek trireme was based on some classical reference to one line of rowers farting in another line's faces.) The "leather phallus," however, seems to me Roman, but maybe not. Plautus? Anyway, I'm probably under the influence of Fellini here. But David would know. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: David Holdsworth >Sent: Jun 9, 2007 7:07 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine -- Xenophon's influence ends -- who next? > >This paragraph in Justine "with a column on the march.. open a major artery" >sounds to me more like references to ancient Greece than to Petronius. >The only seemingly direct reference to a Greek text I can come up with is >the following from Aristophanes' Clouds: > >Durrell: > >...schoolboys in naked ranks marching two abreast at dawn to the school of >the Harpmaster, through falling snow as thick as meal. > >Aristophanes (Loeb 960-965): > >To hear then prepare of the discipline rare which flourished in Athens of >yore > >When Honour and Truth were in fashion with youth and Sobriety bloomed on our >shore > >First of all the old rule was preserved in our school that "boys should be >seen and not heard" > >And then to the home of the Harpist would come decorous in action and word > >All the lads of one town, though the snow peppered down, in spite of all >wind and all weather > >This doesn't explain the full paragraph in Durrell, however, nor is it >necessarily a direct Durrell quote from Aristophanes. > >The "man with a torn ear" seems a reference to something the reader is >expected to recognize. > >Maybe Bruce is right and there are several sources here. Any more ideas? > > >David Holdsworth From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 10 10:11:30 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:11:30 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- the rose in her bed Message-ID: <1284312.1181495491248.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Bill, or are you thinking of Faulkner's Gothic tale, "A Rose for Emily?" Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: Jun 9, 2007 6:59 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine -- the rose in her bed > >"... knew that the quiet man there was thinking of the rose found in >her bed on the day of the Games. ..." (p. 179 Dutton first). > >Even if we can't identify the source of this image, we can still >consider what the image of the rose in her bed means. For me, it's a >haunting image -- hardly one of happiness. > >Winners in the games where often given roses as a symbol of success. >Is the quiet man grieving that his lover has slept with one of the >winners? The rose was Sappho's flower. Is the rose a symbol of >lesbian love? Is it a metaphor for blood? (If you think I'm thinking >of Hardy, I'm not.) > >Later Nessim is "lost in the contemplation of a rose lying upon an >empty plate before him" (p. 182). > >Bill From durrells at otenet.gr Sun Jun 10 00:15:01 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:15:01 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine References: <7891120.1181361159976.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070609193802.IGFC23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <001801c7ab2f$0f8649a0$0100000a@DSC01> Too much wild horta. ----- Original Message ----- From: "william godshalk" To: Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 10:38 PM Subject: [ilds] RG Justine > Douglas Bush, my dissertation director (or he would have been, but we > had "theses" rather than "dissertations") used to say that > similarities were less interesting that differences. I think I've > already made that comment, but it's still a good thought. The > similarities between Warner and Durrell simply tell us that Durrell > took material from Warner. > > But this is one of Durrell's additions to Warner: "Macedonian > slingers-of-the-line farting like goats." Warner has no farting > goats, nor no slingers-of-the-line. > > For some years after I first read this line, I had no idea what > Durrell meant by "farting like goats." But in 1964-1965 I had the > distinct pleasure of living next door to a herd of goats. A goat fart > sounds like a .22 rifle shot. Rather disconcerting the first time you > hear it from the adjoining field. > > But why do Durrell's slingers fart like goats? > > Bill > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2320 (20070609) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From durrells at otenet.gr Sun Jun 10 00:16:47 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:16:47 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Xenophon's influence ends -- who next? References: <29950717.1181427182595.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070610001756.TZIY9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <004601c7ab2f$4ef4ff00$0100000a@DSC01> Except of course the titles of Tunc and Nunquam ----- Original Message ----- From: william godshalk To: Bruce Redwine ; ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 3:18 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine -- Xenophon's influence ends -- who next? Bruce, I tried the Satyricon as translated by William Arrowsmith and couldn't find any Durrellian parallels. But that could simply be the wrong choice of translator. Bill __________ NOD32 2320 (20070609) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2320 (20070609) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070610/efbb1c50/attachment.html From durrells at otenet.gr Sun Jun 10 00:18:36 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:18:36 +0300 Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 3, Issue 4 References: Message-ID: <005f01c7ab2f$8f7105b0$0100000a@DSC01> Ann Ridler died 2 (?) years ago ----- Original Message ----- From: Edward Hungerford To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 5:14 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 3, Issue 4 As to portions cut out of the MSS. version of Marine Venus : ---------------------------------------------------------------- On Jun 3, 2007, at 12:00 PM, ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca wrote: Message: 26 Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 01:29:26 +0100 From: Michael Haag Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson To: gifford at uvic.ca, ilds at lists.uvic.ca Message-ID: <7C06756A-1169-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C at btinternet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Is the pre-cuts MS of Marine Venus lying around anywhere? Any idea, James, of the precise nature of the cuts? :Michael ---------------------------- I have been away for ten days in Washington State, and am catching up on past ILDS messages. In the question of whether large chunks cut out of Marine Venus, I recall that David Roessell, (name sp?) had investigated this closely , and he had talked with --or had correspondence with --the woman who was an editor at Faber & Faber, Anne Ridler, who did the editorial work. I gathered that the MS. was shorted by considerable --30 or 40 % maybe, --(I'm guessing) and that, yes, no doubt these portions cut out would probably have survived somewhere in the archives. This all came out at one of the Durrell Society's meetings, ten or a dozen years ago. By checking the index to Ian MacNiven's biography, much of this story emerges quite plainly. See: MacNiven, 373 : "His [Durrell's] discontent was increased by his seemingly eternal need to revise Reflections on a Marine Venus, which the Faber editors had told him lacked shape and pace and must be cut by almost half. His staunch friend Anne Ridler, still Eliot's assistant at Faber, would eventually come to h is rescue ..." etc. etc. If I were doing any research on this issue, which I am not, I would talk to MacNiven and determine where the correspondence with Anne Ridler is located [no doubt at the Faber publishing offices?], and there does seem to be quite a job of research to be done on this whole subject. Anne Ridler may still be a living presence, too, for all that I know. If she is retired and living in London, why not talk to her? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2320 (20070609) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070610/7be9f489/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 10 11:24:58 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:24:58 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Xenophon's influence ends -- who next? In-Reply-To: <004601c7ab2f$4ef4ff00$0100000a@DSC01> References: <29950717.1181427182595.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070610001756.TZIY9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <004601c7ab2f$4ef4ff00$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070610182438.ZEED9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070610/ec23ea51/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 10 11:28:46 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:28:46 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Aristophanes? In-Reply-To: <14796065.1181446097743.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.s a.earthlink.net> References: <14796065.1181446097743.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070610182829.VJQY7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070610/d000f0ff/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 10 11:32:06 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:32:06 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- the rose in her bed In-Reply-To: <1284312.1181495491248.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.e arthlink.net> References: <1284312.1181495491248.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070610183155.VJWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> At 01:11 PM 6/10/2007, you wrote: >Bill, or are you thinking of Faulkner's Gothic tale, "A Rose for Emily?" > >Bruce Did Durrell read Faulkner? F is not listed in the catalog of LGD's library. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 10 12:24:57 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:24:57 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- the rose in her bed Message-ID: <31772268.1181503498034.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> No idea. But in Charles's world of nebulous influence, anything is possible. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: Jun 10, 2007 11:32 AM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine -- the rose in her bed > >At 01:11 PM 6/10/2007, you wrote: >>Bill, or are you thinking of Faulkner's Gothic tale, "A Rose for Emily?" >> >>Bruce > >Did Durrell read Faulkner? F is not listed in the catalog of LGD's library. > >Bill >*************************************** >W. L. Godshalk * >Department of English * >University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >513-281-5927 >*************************************** > > From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 12:32:34 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:32:34 -0600 Subject: [ilds] CFP: Coordinates of Comparison (Canada) (6/30/07; 8/29/07-8/31/07) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: CALL FOR PAPERS Coordinates of Comparison: Texts, Readers, Theories Comparative Literature Conference University of Alberta, Edmonton, AB, Canada August 29th-31st, 2007 http://www.ualberta.ca/~clc2007 CALL FOR PAPERS Comparative Literature has traditionally centered on the comparison of texts from diverse languages and cultures. Texts, however, are merely one coordinate where comparisons converge; more recent scholarship has taken comparative analysis to other regions of investigation, including readers themselves, and the theories which underpin literary research, allowing texts to be investigated not only as discreet entities, but also as manifestations of specific political and cultural assumptions. Exploring the territories that map the comparative field is the concern of this conference; we are accepting papers from any field concerned with the study of literature. More specific topics include, but are not limited to, the following: * The status of theory in contemporary literary studies * The relationship between a chosen approach to literature and pedagogy * Mind science and pseudoscience in literary scholarship * National boundaries and the possibility of world literature * The role of empirical research in the study of literature * The impact of multi-disciplinarity and inter-disciplinarity on literary scholarship * Local moments and global movements: Asian literatures, Indigenous literatures, and other local to global literary movements * The shifting borders of ?literature?: multiple media * Ethics and literature * The incomparable Abstracts of no more than 250 words should be submitted via email to clc2007 at ualberta.ca no later than June 30, 2007. Please include the author's name, telephone number, address, e-mail address, and institutional/departmental affiliation. Presentations will be limited to 15 minutes each. Consult the conference website (www.ualberta.ca/~clc2007) for registration information, as well as updates on keynote speakers, social functions, and accommodations. Decisions on the acceptance of papers will be provided by July 15, 2007. Coordinates of Comparison Organizing Committee Comparative Literature Program Office of Interdisciplinary Studies, Faculty of Arts 1-59 Humanities Centre, University of Alberta Edmonton, AB T6G 2G5 clc2007 at ualberta.ca http://www.ualberta.ca/~clc2007 From durrells at otenet.gr Sun Jun 10 12:32:21 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:32:21 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- the rose in her bed References: <1284312.1181495491248.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070610183155.VJWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <005701c7ab96$10e86be0$0100000a@DSC01> Which 'catalog of LGD's Library' are you consulting? ----- Original Message ----- From: "william godshalk" To: "Bruce Redwine" ; Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine -- the rose in her bed > At 01:11 PM 6/10/2007, you wrote: >>Bill, or are you thinking of Faulkner's Gothic tale, "A Rose for Emily?" >> >>Bruce > > Did Durrell read Faulkner? F is not listed in the catalog of LGD's > library. > > Bill > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2321 (20070610) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 10 13:08:26 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 16:08:26 -0400 Subject: [ilds] classified document In-Reply-To: <005701c7ab96$10e86be0$0100000a@DSC01> References: <1284312.1181495491248.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070610183155.VJWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <005701c7ab96$10e86be0$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070610200831.LCHO23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> >Which 'catalog of LGD's Library' are you consulting? Naughty, very naughty, Richard. Top secret. Classified. Can't tell until it's been declassified. Then you will know. CIA vetted. G *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From eahunger at charter.net Sun Jun 10 17:55:09 2007 From: eahunger at charter.net (Edward Hungerford) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 17:55:09 -0700 Subject: [ilds] your messages to DG-- Prospero's Cell 1.1 In-Reply-To: <005201c77c84$1aeff810$0202a8c0@MumandDad> References: <461CF081.2070909@wfu.edu> <005201c77c84$1aeff810$0202a8c0@MumandDad> Message-ID: <002fa77408eb49c6fc376346085fa275@charter.net> I was going back a long ways in my kept messages, in order to delete most of them. I could hardly believe that all this started in April -- it seems a long time ago. Just to give you, an idea of 'diversity' on our mailing list, i have to confess that yes, i am a sort of academic--I taught in colleges and universities for 35 years, but I have now been retired so long that I no longer much identify as an "academic person." Like you, I was as much taken by Durrell's travel books (books of foreign residence) as by the AQ. But unlike you, I was not only equally enchanted by the AQ as by Prospero and Marine Venice, but also -- I do consider the fictions in the AQ on as greater level of achievement than that of the travel books. On the other hand, I agree that the Avignon Quintet is taking Durrell's 'method' to extremes, and it is a really almost unreadable sequence. [Over ten years, I struggled through the Quintet twice, th e last tdime in 2000, when traveling to the Durrell conference on Corfu. At that time, I decided that the Quintet simply was a botched job, an example of Durrell's own poor judgment about what ordinary readers could put up with, to indulge a writer's own distorted taste in writing fiction.] In other words, a failure, however grand the design. I defend the Alexandria Quartet for all sorts of things -- lyrical style, wonderful creation of characters and variable types of anecdotal story-telling that don't just come by coincidence. The AQ is carefully designed, although I do think that D. should have taken more care with Clea, which he rushed to completion because he needed the money i guess. I have 'taught', that is, led discussions of the Quartet several times, although it is not in anyone's regular curriculum even for English majors. In this sense, the AQ has never been an academic exercise. Ordinary readers have kept it in print. Students usually do like and enjoy reading the AQ, after making a certain effort to get around, over and beyond their normal reading fare. And I have led discussions on the AQ for adults, senior citizens, in lifetime learning classes. These are lifelong readers, and most of them have enjoyed all sorts of novels, but they still must make an effort to get with the unusual style which D. presents to them . In this respect, the lyrical style came out of Durrell's own poetic imagery since he was first a poet, and then a novelist. **** I am enjoying your contributions to this list, and hope that you will be able to surmount the chaff, since there is so much repetition on this list, resulting from the way it is managed I guess. Ed Hungerford, Ashland, Oregon On Apr 11, 2007, at 2:55 PM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote: > Great to read of one of Durrell's island books being mentioned: > Prospero's Cell. My feeling is that this book, along with Portrait of > a Marine Venus and Bitter Lemons reveal Durrell's finest and most > enchanting writing - and that side of his personality which endeared > him to others; the champagne cork being popped. Durrell's Island books > and his Antrobus stories seem to me to be frequently overlooked in > favour of the heavy and mysterious Quartet and,?especially the?Quintet > which I ploughed through recently (mon dieu). I am afraid I concur > with Durrell's publisher who favoured him continuing with his island > type book rather than the ponderous Quintet. Durrell claimed to > dislike academics. Whether this is true or not, it appears he wrote > the Quartet and the Quintet to be taken seriously by them. For my > money he need not have bothered. I wonder if other Durrell fans agree? > > ? > Denise Tart & David Green > 16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 > ? > +61 2 9564 6165 > 0412 707 625 > dtart at bigpond.net.au >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> Of course before too long we must note another line of connection >> between Justine and LD's interest in "Prospero"--"I have escaped to >> this island with a few books and the child"--we have a replaying of >> the Prospero-Miranda story to talk about in different ways. . . . >> >> CLS >> -- >> ********************** >> Charles L. Sligh >> Department of English >> Wake Forest University >> slighcl at wfu.edu >> ********************** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 4769 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070610/adb90d27/attachment.bin From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 10 18:21:12 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:21:12 -0400 Subject: [ilds] the catalog In-Reply-To: <005701c7ab96$10e86be0$0100000a@DSC01> References: <1284312.1181495491248.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070610183155.VJWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <005701c7ab96$10e86be0$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070611012127.GTG9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> I have just heard from agent 009. The catalog remains hush-hush. W *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 10 19:09:34 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:09:34 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- one more thing -- sprinkling of lees/dregs In-Reply-To: <20070610200831.LCHO23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.emai l.uc.edu> References: <1284312.1181495491248.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070610183155.VJWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <005701c7ab96$10e86be0$0100000a@DSC01> <20070610200831.LCHO23820.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070611020939.WPYM7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070610/a675f565/attachment.html From dtart at bigpond.net.au Sun Jun 10 20:33:51 2007 From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 13:33:51 +1000 Subject: [ilds] your messages to DG-- Prospero's Cell 1.1 References: <461CF081.2070909@wfu.edu><005201c77c84$1aeff810$0202a8c0@MumandDad> <002fa77408eb49c6fc376346085fa275@charter.net> Message-ID: <00d101c7abd9$550da900$0302a8c0@MumandDad> Edward Hungerford wrote But unlike you, I was not only equally enchanted by the AQ as by Prospero and Marine Venice, but also -- I do consider the fictions in the AQ on as greater level of achievement than that of the travel books. On the other hand, I agree that the Avignon Quintet is taking Durrell's 'method' to extremes, and it is a really almost unreadable sequence. Edward, thinking back, I was being provocative when I bagged out the AQs. Justine is a great book and I like the way the style of Prosperos Cell runs into the beginning of it. Both books were on the go at the same time and there are obvious stylistic and thematic links. Of course in Justine the cast of odd characters is taken to an altogether higher plane than that attempted in Prospero's Cell, but the germ of it is there. In The Avignon cycle there is of course a familiar cast of eccentrics but the prose is more ponderous and the mental athleticism is lacking. Perhaps old age and too much vino were taking their toll? Someone once said of Wordsworth that he had brilliant lines but terrible poems. In a way, the Avignon books are similiar; some great passages but perhaps not the best books in western literature. As you say... At that time, I decided that the Quintet simply was a botched job, an example of Durrell's own poor judgment about what ordinary readers could put up with, to indulge a writer's own distorted taste in writing fiction.] In other words, a failure, however grand the design. it is however a truly fascinating universe that he creates in this book even if it takes plenty of fine Australian Chardonnay with which to drink it down. DG Denise Tart & David Green 16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070611/6a77f947/attachment.html