From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon May 28 08:07:05 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 08:07:05 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Said & Durrell Message-ID: <28095976.1180364825566.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I also don't see the linkage. How can you? In fact, I think Scruton is honoring Durrell by putting him in the same company as Joseph Conrad, whom the Brits revere (read F. R. Leavis and Ian Watt, both of Cambridge, on Conrad). The point of the paragraph is to make out Edward Said the Palestinian as a turncoat to his upbringing, education, and the great city-state of New York. No more. After all, as previously discussed, it's Said who calls Lawrence Durrell and his readers "poncy." (My thanks to RP for teaching me a new word.) Bruce PS I also miss the point about nightingales and vin rouge. Another poncy allusion? >On 5/27/2007 4:01 PM, Ilyas Khan wrote: >> Sorry, but the linkage is contrived, at best, or I am missing some >> nuance here. On 5/07, Scruton wrote: Only cultural decline can explain the eagerness with which Said?s argument has been accepted in our universities. Yet Said was born of Christian parents in Jerusalem before the war; he was educated in English-language private schools > in Egypt and America and at Harvard University; he was brought up to love > western music, western literature and western art. He was a cosmopolitan in > the mould of Conrad, Turgenev and Lawrence Durrell, and his attack on the > culture that formed him was an act of repudiation towards a legacy that he nevertheless gladly inherited and manifestly enjoyed. > On 7/28/07, Charles Sligh wrote: As you know, Ilyas, Scruton is making a special use of Durrell for an >end applicable to current cultural debates in Britain--debates to which >I will always be an outsider. Contrivance always must be reckoned in >political rhetoric. That said, as someone who is interested in >Durrell's changing place in literary and cultural history, I find I >would like to ask Scruton and his readers > > "Why /Lawrence Durrell/? Why now, why in this context? Is > /Lawrence Durrell/ still a name with which to be conjured in > 2007? If so, for what values and against what values does > Scruton expect /Lawrence Durrell/ to stand, to be understood to > stand by readers of the Sunday Times? Will we see a reply to > Scruton in the Guardian with a corresponding sinking of > /Lawrence Durrell/? Have /Edward Said /and /Lawrence Durrell > /become inextricably entwined in some sort of posthumous > Manichean polarity--cartoons of themselves, really--to be made > use of as necessary by the those politicos (liberal, jingoist, > what have you) involved in the British culture wars?" > >All of this bears tracking because it influences how people outside the >ILDS and this listserv hear our cases, our arguments for reading >Durrell. It really does shape a lot of expectations and >responses--"Oh. Lawrence Durrell. Hmmmm. A Durrellian, are you? >/That /lot. Well, from what I have heard. . . ." Believe me, my >experience with multiple colleagues who came through Cambridge shows >that sort of suspicion of Durrell as "lit for the poncy set" is prevalent. > >Charles > > From slighcl at wfu.edu Mon May 28 10:00:01 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 13:00:01 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Said & Durrell In-Reply-To: <28095976.1180364825566.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <28095976.1180364825566.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <465B0A91.3000400@wfu.edu> On 5/28/2007 11:07 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >I also don't see the linkage. How can you? > But is not the point, as in all reading of editorial or political rhetoric, not the "truth" of the linkage, but instead the fact and power and specificity of the linkage? That such a linkage happened it all in 2007 and that Scruton thought that invoking Lawrence Durrell (alongside Turgenev and Conrad; in a certain contrast to Said) would add a cache of some sort to his indictment of Said? As some will be aware, Elgar is enjoying a sort of cultural moment as Britain recognizes his 150th anniversary. http://arts.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/story/0,,2086978,00.html Obviously Elgar has an iconic presence far beyond what Durrell has enjoyed. But as I read Scruton invoking "Lawrence Durrell" for his needs and wondered about how his reference would be read, I also think about what might be called the cultural and political uses of "Edward Elgar." Anyone who lived and read and listened thoughtfully between 1979 and 1990 could not be unaware that Margaret Thatcher was making a special use of "Edward Elgar" that may or may not have had anything to do with "truth" about Elgar and his music. But no one studying or listening enthusiastically to Elgar during that time would be unaware that the composer's name became associated with a certain political view, a nostalgia for "Victorian" things that again had less to with reality than with ideas and politics and rhetoric. And these high Conservative commandeerings of Elgar did set back serious discussion of a key composer of significant merit. (I am not ignoring Elgar's own conservative bent. At the same time, his politics were his own to practice in his lifetime.) I have read Eagleton and Said invoking "Lawrence Durrell" in certain ways, and now I find Scruton calling up "Lawrence Durrell" to serve in other ways. Whatever the truth, we ignore what these usages at our peril--whether we are recommending books to friends and lovers, proposing syllabi and fielding book proposals, or announcing On Miracle Ground conferences or the next meetings at the Durrell School of Corfu. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070528/19d7ee5d/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon May 28 10:52:35 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 13:52:35 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 -- the Summer Palace Message-ID: <20070528175239.QDTL26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Who actually constructs the Summer Palace? Nessim has the initial concept, but who digs out the cistern? (161 Dutton). Who builds the L shaped Palace with store-rooms, small living-rooms, stables, an observatory, and so on? "The work went forward slowly" (161-62). Panayotis, the gardener, gets a dispensation to build a small chapel to St. Arsenius in the house, but he arrived after the main part of the house was built (163). After the project has been completed, or nearly so, Nessim thinks: "building something with my own hands will keep me stable and unreflective" (165). Does he hint that he built the Palace with his own hands? Or does it arise from the desert sands as though by magic? Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon May 28 11:49:06 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 11:49:06 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] On Ponce Message-ID: <9645866.1180378146444.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> You can call me a ponce all you like. No offense taken. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Durrell School of Corfu >Sent: May 27, 2007 10:44 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] Charlie a ponce? definitely NOT > >I said no such thing. And if anyone is offended by my use of slanguage, they >should know just how offensive the p---y c---p is - I've (and the DSC) >suffered from his character, you haven't. RP >----- Original Message ----- >From: "william godshalk" >To: >Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 2:49 AM >Subject: [ilds] Charlie a ponce? definitely NOT > > >> >>>Yes, but oysters are for poncy, upper-class tits. >> >> >> Richard, you should be ashamed for calling Charlie a ponce. He's a >> well-known straight arrow -- and as many people are aware, and oyster >> is female in implication. >> >> Bill From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon May 28 11:53:33 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 11:53:33 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Said & Durrell Message-ID: <14397404.1180378413579.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I guess I'm just dense (which others have pointed out). But I don't see any problem with putting Lawrence Durrell and Joseph Conrad together in the same boat. Anyone who wants to do that, no matter what their ulterior motive, offends me not in the least and raises no call to arms. I care not a whit about the "fact and power" of the literary Establishment, which, by the way, brings to mind Said and his reverence for Michel Foucault. Not only that, I liked Scruton's piece. > >Bruce > > >>On 5/28/2007 11:07 AM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >> >>>I also don't see the linkage. How can you? > >On 5/28/07, Charles Sligh responded: >>> >>But is not the point, as in all reading of editorial or political >>rhetoric, not the "truth" of the linkage, but instead the fact and power >>and specificity of the linkage? That such a linkage happened it all in >>2007 and that Scruton thought that invoking Lawrence Durrell (alongside >>Turgenev and Conrad; in a certain contrast to Said) would add a cache of >>some sort to his indictment of Said? >> >>I have read Eagleton and Said invoking "Lawrence Durrell" in certain >>ways, and now I find Scruton calling up "Lawrence Durrell" to serve in >>other ways. Whatever the truth, we ignore what these usages at our >>peril--whether we are recommending books to friends and lovers, >>proposing syllabi and fielding book proposals, or announcing On Miracle >>Ground conferences or the next meetings at the Durrell School of Corfu. >> >>Charles > From slighcl at wfu.edu Mon May 28 12:45:48 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 15:45:48 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Said & Durrell In-Reply-To: <14397404.1180378413579.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <14397404.1180378413579.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <465B316C.5020107@wfu.edu> On 5/28/2007 2:53 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >I care not a whit about the "fact and power" of the literary Establishment, which, by the way, brings to mind Said and his reverence for Michel Foucault. Not only that, I liked Scruton's piece. > Nothing has to be exclusive, I think. Readers can enjoy (?) or at least learn as they will from Scruton and Said and Eagleton as necessary. I "enjoy" putting the three of them all in a cage like my Yeatsian circus animals and letting them tussle like unfed monkeys and feed off of each other. But in my less cavalier moments I recognize that "caring not a whit" cannot be an option for anybody working earnestly (spot the Victorianist!) to bring a larger recognition to Durrell's work--whether that person is an executor of an estate, a literary agent, a publisher, a literary scholar, an editor, a biographer, a teacher, &c. All of those workers will have audiences to win and interests to cultivate alongside the other sort of "interests" (financial). Collectors also must monitor the cache of the author's writings. I really admire those Durrellians who work for Durrell out of loyalty to his person and out of appreciation for his art, while also out of real world, savvy recognition of how literature gets published and how reputations are sustained or compromised. I am especially recalling the rousing tone of Anthea Morton-Saner's voice when we discussed Eagleton's too easy dismissal of Durrell and interest in Durrell in his review of Ian MacNiven's biography. That was a personal connection with Lawrence Durrell. That was true spirit and loyalty, toughened and strengthened and clarified by real world experience and good business instinct. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon May 28 12:47:28 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 15:47:28 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Red Wine! and nightingales In-Reply-To: <28095976.1180364825566.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa. earthlink.net> References: <28095976.1180364825566.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070528194751.DUOD13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070528/d008f952/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon May 28 13:02:23 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 13:02:23 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Red Wine! and nightingales Message-ID: <11010700.1180382544063.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Ah, FitzGerald. And here I was hoping for Keats and his "Joy's grape." Was Keats a ponce? Probably. Bruce >From: william godshalk >Sent: May 28, 2007 12:47 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Red Wine! and nightingales > >And David's lips were lockt; but in divine / High-pipping Pehlevi, with"Wine! Wine! Wine! / Red Wine!" -- the Nightingale cries to theRose / That sallow cheek of hers 't incarnadine. > >The Rubaiyat -- written by a ponce. From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon May 28 13:13:42 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 13:13:42 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] On Ponce and Beyond Message-ID: <6617475.1180383222735.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> A request from Dr. Anthony Durrell, who is trying to locate Durrell's "esoteric" essays on the Internet or "emailable." I believe he has in mind essays on Groddeck, Gnosticism, and Taoism or anything of a psychoanalytic/mystical nature. Please send to "durrell at telstra.com." -----Original Message----- >From: "durrell at telstra.com" >Sent: May 28, 2007 12:56 PM >To: Bruce Redwine >Subject: Re: [ilds] On Ponce > >Bruce do you or other ilds members have any of the esoteric LD >essays in emailable form?..... best wishes AD From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon May 28 13:17:44 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 16:17:44 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's place in the pantheon In-Reply-To: <465B316C.5020107@wfu.edu> References: <14397404.1180378413579.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <465B316C.5020107@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070528201818.QODK26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Charlie, When Durrell is named either to praise him or to damn him, it suggests that he is big enough to demand his place in the story. He cannot be ignored. And that's good for Durrellians. That's at least part of what I'm hearing you say. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon May 28 13:34:40 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 13:34:40 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Durrell among the Fixed Stars Message-ID: <9954612.1180384480491.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Charles, sitting on the sidelines and having no stake in academia, I am a little amused by the concern about Durrell's reputation. I am reminded of a story. A geneticist, an old woman, whose name escapes me, pursued her lonely research on mutations in ears of corn. She worked in a remote lab on Long Island and was generally unrecognized, till near the end of her long career. Then she won an award and was hailed by her colleagues for brilliant work. A NYT reporter interviewed her and asked how she felt about those many years of being largely ignored. She too was amused. She shrugged and said, "It all washes out in the end." That's how I feel about Durrell's reputation and low status among his fellow greats. It'll all wash out in the end. Besides, who's going to talk about Terry Eagleton ten years hence, if that long? Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: slighcl >Sent: May 28, 2007 12:45 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] Said & Durrell > > > >On 5/28/2007 2:53 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > >>I care not a whit about the "fact and power" of the literary Establishment, which, by the way, brings to mind Said and his reverence for Michel Foucault. Not only that, I liked Scruton's piece. >> >Nothing has to be exclusive, I think. Readers can enjoy (?) or at least >learn as they will from Scruton and Said and Eagleton as necessary. I >"enjoy" putting the three of them all in a cage like my Yeatsian circus >animals and letting them tussle like unfed monkeys and feed off of each >other. > >But in my less cavalier moments I recognize that "caring not a whit" >cannot be an option for anybody working earnestly (spot the >Victorianist!) to bring a larger recognition to Durrell's work--whether >that person is an executor of an estate, a literary agent, a publisher, >a literary scholar, an editor, a biographer, a teacher, &c. All of >those workers will have audiences to win and interests to cultivate >alongside the other sort of "interests" (financial). Collectors also >must monitor the cache of the author's writings. > >I really admire those Durrellians who work for Durrell out of loyalty to >his person and out of appreciation for his art, while also out of real >world, savvy recognition of how literature gets published and how >reputations are sustained or compromised. I am especially recalling the >rousing tone of Anthea Morton-Saner's voice when we discussed Eagleton's >too easy dismissal of Durrell and interest in Durrell in his review of >Ian MacNiven's biography. That was a personal connection with Lawrence >Durrell. That was true spirit and loyalty, toughened and strengthened >and clarified by real world experience and good business instinct. > >Charles > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon May 28 13:37:55 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 16:37:55 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell among the Fixed Stars In-Reply-To: <9954612.1180384480491.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa. earthlink.net> References: <9954612.1180384480491.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070528203849.QPPY26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> > Besides, who's going to talk about Terry Eagleton ten years hence, > if that long? You got that right. *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From slighcl at wfu.edu Mon May 28 14:00:31 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 17:00:31 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell among the Fixed Stars In-Reply-To: <20070528203849.QPPY26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <9954612.1180384480491.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070528203849.QPPY26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <465B42EF.3020002@wfu.edu> On 5/28/2007 4:37 PM, william godshalk wrote: >> Besides, who's going to talk about Terry Eagleton ten years hence, >>if that long? >> >> > >You got that right. > No one will recall or need recall it--the context and the players have already washed--but I spoke some close approximation to that recognition of Eagletonian mutability on Corfu in 2000 during a plenary roundtable on "Teaching Durrell." Would any of you like something cold to drink? Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070528/b2c99aa2/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Mon May 28 14:07:47 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 17:07:47 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Red Wine! and nightingales In-Reply-To: <11010700.1180382544063.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <11010700.1180382544063.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <465B44A3.6030409@wfu.edu> On 5/28/2007 4:02 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >Was Keats a ponce? Probably. > One autumn I read all of Byron's marvelous correspondence. Based on that bit of indulgent scholarship, I can confirm for you, Bruce, that yes, Johnny Keats got himself called a ponce, or the nearest Regency term. Cf. the OED: *pissabed, n. and adj.* *2. derogatory. A bed-wetter. Also as a more general term of abuse.* * B. adj. derogatory. That wets the bed; (more generally) despicable, contemptible. Now rare.* 1643 in County Court Rec. Accomack-Northampton, Va. (1973) 292 Thou pissa bedd Jade. 1675 T. DUFFETT Mock-Tempest IV. ii. 37 She fibs, she fibs Father,..you spiteful pissabed Slut. *1820 BYRON Let. 12 Oct. (1977) VII. 200 Johnny Keats's p--ss a bed poetry.* 1983 M. O'DONOGHUE Jedder's Land (1984) 31 'Dirty-arsed hog! Filthy, wart-nosed trash! Pissabed varmint!' She screeched all the wickedest words she knew. No doubt I have just inititated a new sales spike on Amazon for /Jedder's Land/. CLS -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070528/812bcfe3/attachment.html From ilyas.khan at crosby.com Mon May 28 14:04:46 2007 From: ilyas.khan at crosby.com (Ilyas Khan) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 05:04:46 +0800 Subject: [ilds] "said was in the mould of durrell" In-Reply-To: <465A2769.5090505@wfu.edu> Message-ID: Charles, I think there are quite a few of us on this list who are ?brits?, though I suspect many of us are itinerant at best, and offshore for much of the time. Such is the way of the world. In that regard, at least, LD was our predecessor. I have little doubt that Durrell, and his memory (but not reverence thereof) remains strong in many circles. But that, my Durrellian friends, is clutching at straws. The truth, unpalatable as it might seem, is that Britain has constructed its own pantheon of British writers that are summoned up in the public conscious ? and LD is rarely evoked in this context. Woodehouse, Orwell, Amis (pater et fils), Auden and even Le Carre are the heavyweights. Rushdie and Naipaul, though distinctly sub-continental in my view, have become ?British? over the years, and occupy a place in the Guardian/TLS/LRB reading public?s high esteem. Conrad, Green and Maugham remain untouchable. They are (to borrow from Justine) our literary primates. There may well be howls of protest, but I have lost count of the times I have played the evangelist to a pagan audience who, if they have heard of Durrell, end up admitting they ?really meant Gerald?. Coming back to the Scruton article ? and the view, expressed by some, that any mention that confers ?it? status is not worth questioning. I am not hampered or invigorated by being a member of any academic group, but on this, I take the side of the professorial crowd. Scruton?s article, no matter how well written, leaves me guessing at the link. Lets hope we get to hear from the author. Charles, outside of Oxbridge, Durrellian might well be a mis-construed reference to Orwellian. They may as well be the same ! Ilyas On 5/28/07 8:50 AM, "slighcl" wrote: > On 5/27/2007 4:01 PM, Ilyas Khan wrote: >> >> Sorry, but the linkage is contrived, at best, or I am missing some nuance >> here. > As you know, Ilyas, Scruton is making a special use of Durrell for an end > applicable to current cultural debates in Britain--debates to which I will > always be an outsider.? Contrivance always must be reckoned in political > rhetoric.? That said, as someone who is interested in Durrell's changing place > in literary and cultural history, I find I would like to ask Scruton and his > readers >> >>> "Why Lawrence Durrell? Why now, why in this context? Is Lawrence Durrell >>> still a name with which to be conjured in 2007?? If so, for what values and >>> against what values does Scruton expect Lawrence Durrell to stand, to be >>> understood to stand by readers of the Sunday Times?? Will we see a reply to >>> Scruton in the Guardian with a corresponding sinking of Lawrence Durrell?? >>> Have Edward Said and Lawrence Durrell become inextricably entwined in some >>> sort of posthumous Manichean polarity--cartoons of themselves, really--to be >>> made use of as necessary by the those politicos (liberal, jingoist, what >>> have you) involved in the British culture wars?" >>> > All of this bears tracking because it influences how people outside the ILDS > and this listserv hear our cases, our arguments for reading Durrell.? It > really does shape a lot of expectations and responses--"Oh.? Lawrence > Durrell.? Hmmmm.? A Durrellian, are you?? That lot.? Well, from what I have > heard. . . ."? Believe me, my experience with multiple colleagues who came > through Cambridge shows that sort of suspicion of Durrell as "lit for the > poncy set" is prevalent.? > > Charles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070529/84e20882/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon May 28 14:10:53 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 17:10:53 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell among the Fixed Stars In-Reply-To: <465B42EF.3020002@wfu.edu> References: <9954612.1180384480491.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070528203849.QPPY26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <465B42EF.3020002@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070528211245.EAPH13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Well, okay, I find Eagleton's little book on Shakespeare indefensible -- and I did try to defend it at an academic meeting. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon May 28 14:23:09 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 14:23:09 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Poncy Keats Message-ID: <12877706.1180387389571.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Charles, many thanks. Pissabed -- another word for my impoverished vocabulary. QED. Keats was most definitely a ponce. Bruce On 5/28/07, Charles Slight responded: >>Was Keats a ponce? Probably. >> >One autumn I read all of Byron's marvelous correspondence. Based on >that bit of indulgent scholarship, I can confirm for you, Bruce, that >yes, Johnny Keats got himself called a ponce, or the nearest Regency >term. Cf. the OED: > > *pissabed, n. and adj.* > > *2. derogatory. A bed-wetter. Also as a more general term of abuse.* > > * B. adj. derogatory. That wets the bed; (more generally) > despicable, contemptible. Now rare.* > > 1643 in County Court Rec. Accomack-Northampton, Va. (1973) 292 > Thou pissa bedd Jade. 1675 T. DUFFETT Mock-Tempest IV. ii. 37 > She fibs, she fibs Father,..you spiteful pissabed Slut. *1820 > BYRON Let. 12 Oct. (1977) VII. 200 Johnny Keats's p--ss a bed > poetry.* 1983 M. O'DONOGHUE Jedder's Land (1984) 31 'Dirty-arsed > hog! Filthy, wart-nosed trash! Pissabed varmint!' She screeched > all the wickedest words she knew. > From slighcl at wfu.edu Mon May 28 14:27:11 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 17:27:11 -0400 Subject: [ilds] "said was in the mould of durrell" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465B492F.9040003@wfu.edu> On 5/28/2007 5:04 PM, Ilyas Khan wrote: > > > Charles, outside of Oxbridge, Durrellian might well be a mis-construed > reference to Orwellian. They may as well be the same ! I like that one, Ilyas. Back in the 1960s, when Cortazar's /Hopscotch /appeared in its English translation, one reviewer coined the perjorative "very poor sub-Durrell." And that was in 1966 or thereabouts. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070528/354ae2c0/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Mon May 28 14:29:32 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 17:29:32 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's place in the pantheon In-Reply-To: <20070528201818.QODK26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <14397404.1180378413579.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <465B316C.5020107@wfu.edu> <20070528201818.QODK26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <465B49BC.4000406@wfu.edu> On 5/28/2007 4:17 PM, william godshalk wrote: >Charlie, > >When Durrell is named either to praise him or to damn him, it >suggests that he is big enough to demand his place in the story. He >cannot be ignored. And that's good for Durrellians. > >That's at least part of what I'm hearing you say. > Yeah. Just think how strange it really is for any of these characters--Said or Eagleton or Scruton--to turn their attention to Durrell in these particular moments and situations. Durrell? Surprising, revealing, pleasing in a passing way, curious. Eagleton's anecdote in his review tells us what we should know about the target of his animosity: >My old Cambridge tutor, a deeply traditionalist scholar, used to have a copy of Lawrence Durrell's novel Justine lying with casual deliberateness on his desk. The book looked suspiciously unthumbed. It was there as testimony to his (entirely spurious) avantgardeness, for in the early 1960s Durrell was one of the last words in high-brow literary experiment. > >These days Durrell is probably even less of a remembered name than his zoologist brother Gerald, suggesting that aardvarks linger longer in the public mind than the avant-garde. Whatever happened to this audacious aesthete? > Well, well. But then Eagleton proves the power of what I have been calling "cache." With his name in ascendancy and Durrell's on the wane, Eagleton found that he could trounce Durrell's reconsideration while neglecting to read Ian MacNiven's biography or to reread Durrell's works. Dean Swift could have appreciated the hubris of Eagleton's arrival in Corfu. Bladders of peas gain you free admittance to his lectures. Here below my signature appears Eagleton's review. We will play fair in this court. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** Title: Supreme trickster., By: Eagleton, Terry, New Statesman, 13647431, 04/24/98, Vol. 127, Issue 4382 Database: Academic Search Premier Find More Like ThisSUPREME TRICKSTER LAWRENCE DURRELL: A BIOGRAPHY Ian MacNiven Faber & Faber, ?25 My old Cambridge tutor, a deeply traditionalist scholar, used to have a copy of Lawrence Durrell's novel Justine lying with casual deliberateness on his desk. The book looked suspiciously unthumbed. It was there as testimony to his (entirely spurious) avantgardeness, for in the early 1960s Durrell was one of the last words in high-brow literary experiment. These days Durrell is probably even less of a remembered name than his zoologist brother Gerald, suggesting that aardvarks linger longer in the public mind than the avant-garde. Whatever happened to this audacious aesthete? Justine is one of the volumes of Durrell's Alexandria Quartet, a monument of fake exoticism and pseudo-profundity which some of us at the time mistook for great literature. It was an adolescent taste, rather in the way only 18 year olds regard Albert Camus as a great philosopher. In those years in Cambridge some of us saw ourselves as existentialists, which just meant that as frightened youngsters away from home we weren't feeling too chirpy. Today it is known in some quarters as post-structuralism. The brittle, hot-house preciousness of the Quartet lent itself wonderfully to parody: "The city is languid tonight, its mood half-churlish, halfremorseful. The sea glints a jaded mauve, wrinkled and knotted like the veined neck of a Lebanese brothel-keeper. Sipping his sherbert, Pelagius says that love is the stale morsel we are left with when desire lapses into memory." The Durrell who carved himself a literary colony out of Alexandria was himself the son of a colonialist. Born in India in 1912, the child of an affluent engineer, he spent the rest of his life drifting like a literary playboy from one fancy European hotel to another. Part of the fag-end of cosmopolitan modernism, he shacked up in Corfu, Athens, Egypt, Rhodes, Buenos Aires, Cyprus and France, changing wives almost as often as he changed countries. Some of this placeshifting was an attempt to keep one step ahead of the second world war, which he did his aestheticist best to ignore. While Hitler was on the rampage, Durrell was in search of a spot more sunshine. He despised politics, thought Marxists "synonymous with pigs and fools", and set his thoughts instead on the eternal. As a textbook bohemian, Durrell knocked around Paris with Henry Miller and Anais Nin, and loafed about London with Dylan Thomas and a few stray surrealists, while describing his own artistic tendency as "Durrealist". Loftily contemptuous at first oft S Eliot, he changed his opinion of him overnight when Eliot, then editor at Faber, published one of his novels. He ended up as a bored, taxevading semi-recluse, dying in London in 1990 just as he was about to launch yet another marriage. Samuel Johnson's comment on such marital ventures - "the triumph of hope over experience" - has rarely been more apt. Ian MacNiven has chronicled the flittings of this literary flaneur --"Larry" to him - in 700 pages of painstaking research. The book is a model of tenacious scholarship, but as Uma Thurman remarks to John Travolta in Pulp Fiction when he announces his need to take a pee: "That's just a little more information than I needed." The trouble with biographers is the dead-levelling way in which every scrap of information about their subject becomes as important as every other. The book resounds with the sound of a gnat being blasted by a Howitzer. Durrell once described himself as a "supreme trickster", and this is surely one reason why his celebrity proved so shortlived. The glittering surface of his prose conceals an emotional anaesthesia, for which the portentously "profound" reflections of the Quartet are meant to compensate. Like many poets, his verbal sensitivity is in inverse proportion to real human sympathy, a sublimated selfishness evident in his life as much as his work. What was real was what he could exoticise, convert to mythological archetype or high-sounding platitude. His Alexandria is a country of the mind, attractive precisely because its cultural and ethnic mix makes it at once nowhere and everywhere. If he plundered Egypt for its symbolic capital, he also groused about its "stinking inhabitants". His combination of elitism and aestheticism was finally outstripped by Nabokov, another rootless emigre who happened to possess a finer literary talent. Unlike Nabokov, Joyce and D H Lawrence, Durrell was on permanent vacation rather than in artistic exile. Perhaps because he had been born outside England, his work lacks that tension between home and abroad, the pains of expatriation as well as its creative possibilities, which marks his great modernist forebears. Whereas Joyce and Lawrence spent their lives on the run from cultural traditions they knew from the inside, Durrell never experienced them in the first place. Like his life, the overbred, cosmopolitan range of the Quartet conceals a cultural shallowness. MacNiven's naively uncritical narrative seems blind to this thinness, perhaps because, like many a biographer, he forgets to stand back from the trees to give us a glimpse of the wood. "To understand Lawrence Durrell," he admonishes us, "one must go to India, physically if possible..."; but this volume is quite expensive enough. 48n1.jpg From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon May 28 16:02:23 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 19:02:23 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear In-Reply-To: <465B49BC.4000406@wfu.edu> References: <14397404.1180378413579.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <465B316C.5020107@wfu.edu> <20070528201818.QODK26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <465B49BC.4000406@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070528230216.RSTF9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070528/c7711cda/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Mon May 28 16:34:40 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 19:34:40 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear In-Reply-To: <20070528230216.RSTF9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <14397404.1180378413579.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <465B316C.5020107@wfu.edu> <20070528201818.QODK26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <465B49BC.4000406@wfu.edu> <20070528230216.RSTF9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <465B6710.2020902@wfu.edu> On 5/28/2007 7:02 PM, william godshalk wrote: > > Darley leaves his copy of /King Lear /on the dune -- and Nessim's > telescope is trained on the forgotten volume. Why does Durrell select > this play for Darley to read. Was he thinking that Shakespeare's > Edmund is in love with two different women -- one of them married? And > the whole affair ends in death for all three. Now I will sound very Blavatskian and altogether poncy. What if an answer could be deduced from a ghost? Would it help in making sense of the /Lear /reference/ /if you knew that Durrell had originally written /Macbeth /and then struck it out, Bill? He did. Would that stillborn possibility make Nessim's paranoia like Macbeth's? And would that flashback on to Darley? And what does the final choice of /Lear /mean then--gauged by a difference? Or would all of this "signify nothing"? Imagining the /Justine /that was never written--or, rather, the /Justine /that was written and rewritten. . . . /See the abating shadow of this my conscript dust. . . ./ Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070528/1c4e0a04/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon May 28 17:20:46 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 20:20:46 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 King Lear rather than Macbeth In-Reply-To: <465B6710.2020902@wfu.edu> References: <14397404.1180378413579.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <465B316C.5020107@wfu.edu> <20070528201818.QODK26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <465B49BC.4000406@wfu.edu> <20070528230216.RSTF9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <465B6710.2020902@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070529002039.RHMM26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070528/8484e3de/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Mon May 28 17:31:57 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 20:31:57 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 King Lear rather than Macbeth In-Reply-To: <20070529002039.RHMM26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <14397404.1180378413579.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <465B316C.5020107@wfu.edu> <20070528201818.QODK26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <465B49BC.4000406@wfu.edu> <20070528230216.RSTF9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <465B6710.2020902@wfu.edu> <20070529002039.RHMM26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <465B747D.4020306@wfu.edu> On 5/28/2007 8:20 PM, william godshalk wrote: > Well, that's worth thinking about? Why /Macbeth/? And why strike it > out and add /Lear/? Was he considering Justine as Lady Macbeth? And > was he thinking of the possibility that Macbeth would murder Duncan? > (Who will play Duncan?) That Justine would urge the murder? That the > apparently dynamic duo would break apart? > > Macbeth's paranoia is well-founded! They are out to get him -- and > they do. Okay, perhaps Darley is Macbeth in the sense that he > believes Nessim is out to get him. And will. > > Does the differance help here? To extend what you have said, Bill, I was reading back from Macbeth ^Lear and noting the portents, omens, "vertiginous uncertainty," and the "Beware" written in the sand in Greek--all of which I can see as making /Macbeth /a more obvious choice. But then what to do with the swerve to /Lear/? Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070528/6dc50113/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon May 28 18:05:13 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 21:05:13 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 King Lear rather than Macbeth In-Reply-To: <465B747D.4020306@wfu.edu> References: <14397404.1180378413579.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <465B316C.5020107@wfu.edu> <20070528201818.QODK26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <465B49BC.4000406@wfu.edu> <20070528230216.RSTF9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <465B6710.2020902@wfu.edu> <20070529002039.RHMM26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <465B747D.4020306@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070529010516.RLTY26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070528/2c214501/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon May 28 18:13:00 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 18:13:00 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Eagleton Message-ID: <19596460.1180401181105.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Charles, thanks for making available Terry Eagleton's highly negative review of MacNiven's biography, which Eagleton apparently never read, given the misinformation in it. But that's a minor detail. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Eagleton one of the principal speakers at the Durrell conference on Corfu a few years back? If so, why? In the interest of balance and diversity? Or just because he was a Big Fish happy to find a little pond. If an enemy of Durrell was honored, why not a non-academic such as Dr. Anthony Durrell? Bruce Eagleton on Durrell: >As a textbook bohemian, Durrell knocked around Paris with Henry Miller and Anais Nin, and loafed about London with Dylan Thomas and a few stray surrealists, while describing his own artistic tendency as "Durrealist". Loftily contemptuous at first oft S Eliot, he changed his opinion of him overnight when Eliot, then editor at Faber, published one of his novels. He ended up as a bored, taxevading semi-recluse, dying in London in 1990 just as he was about to launch yet another marriage. Samuel Johnson's comment on such marital ventures - "the triumph of hope over experience" - has rarely been more apt. > From slighcl at wfu.edu Mon May 28 19:51:12 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 22:51:12 -0400 Subject: [ilds] =?windows-1252?q?=93Lawrence_Durrell=92s_Neo/Anti-Colonial?= =?windows-1252?q?_Aesthetic=94?= In-Reply-To: <19596460.1180401181105.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <19596460.1180401181105.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <465B9520.50603@wfu.edu> Here is an opportunity: Read below for an abstract on the panels headed up by our own James Gifford for the upcoming ACLALS conference in August 2007. It seems to me that a number of our best and brightest, here presenting with Jamie on his panels, will be discussing some of the political-ethical questions we have been raising of late in our coverage of /Justine/, Scruton, and Eagleton. I have copied the website addresses below. Please give these ILDS presenters an audience if you are in the neighborhood. CLS *** *The Association for Commonwealth Literature and Language Studies (ACLALS) Literature For Our Times http://ocs.sfu.ca/aclals/index.php * The University of British Columbia (UBC) Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada August 17 - 22, 2007 *?Lawrence Durrell?s Neo/Anti-Colonial Aesthetic?* http://ocs.sfu.ca/aclals/viewabstract.php?id=375 James Gifford University of Victoria Last modified: April 17, 2007 *Abstract* Ranging from a ?force for reconciliation? and beyond ?an instrument for aesthetic pleasure of the privileged,? literature also has the sinister capacity for propaganda, division, exclusionary elitism, and inciting not only misinformation but even hate. Responses to the commonwealth author Lawrence Durrell (1912-90) have traversed this range. In 1962, Mahmoud Manzalaoui declared The Alexandria Quartet exhibited an ?essential falsity of description? and compared Durrell to ?Mediterranean fortune-seekers? [who] exploited, carved out their fortunes, and distorted facts to justify their position.? In stark contrast, M.G. Vassanji in 2002 located Durrell as a positive cosmopolitan influence, and Caryl Phillips notes Durrell?s ?expatriate status greatly influenced his work and he openly acknowledged a ?love-hate? relationship with Britain.? Such conflicts are continued in the 2006 proceedings of the Durrell Society?s conference in Egypt, Durrell in Alexandria. This scope reflects ongoing debate, especially as Durrell?s nationless status was revealed in 2002?born in India yet not Indian and never holding British citizenship despite working as a British civil servant. These panels re-examine Durrell?s place in Commonwealth literature, coinciding with the 50th anniversary of the publication of the first volume of his magnum opus, The Alexandria Quartet, a work that recalls the height of the British Empire on the cusp of World War II but from the perspective of a post Suez Crisis Egypt and an empire in retreat during ENOSIS on Cyprus. This panel also takes particular interest in his autobiographical first novel, Pied Piper of Lovers (1935), which recounts his childhood in pre-partition India and traumatic return ?home? to Britain. Biographically, this early tension in Durrell?s life between Mother India and Father England informs his continuously problematic position as a colonial and expatriate. At the 2004 session of the Durrell School of Corfu, Gayatri Spivak and Terry Eagleton illustrated the difficulties within Durrell?s works that have resulted in his relative exclusion from postcolonial studies of commonwealth literature: i.e. his ironic narrative voice in opposition to the kitsch exoticism of the 1950s and 60s. Drawing on the biographical complexity of his early position in Empire, these two panels discuss the conflicts between Durrell?s Orientalist exoticism, his longstanding Philhellenism, his works? ethical examination of alterity, irony in his neocolonialism, and his critiques of Imperialist power from within its privilege. Also under consideration is the impact of his various mid-life diplomatic postings to sites of hybridity and disjunction: Yugoslavia, Cyprus, Egypt, Argentina, and Greece. The aim of these panels is to enliven the question proposed by the conference: ?Is literature a force for reconciliation and cross-cultural understanding or only an instrument for aesthetic pleasure of the privileged?? Debate surrounding this question in Durrell?s oeuvre is pressing, and as such he offers a complex conduit through which to discuss ACLALS?s theme. Proposed panels: Panel 1?Fifty Years After The Alexandria Quartet: Ethics + Aesthetics o James Gifford, University of Victoria ?Silence and Speaking?Politicized Irony in Durrell?s Spirit of Place? o Isabelle Keller, Universit? Toulouse-le-Mirail ?The Discourse of/on Faith in Lawrence Durrell?s Alexandria Quartet? o Dianne Vipond, California State University Long Beach ?The Politics of Durrell?s Major Fiction? Panel 2?Durrell in Relation: Cyprus, India, Serbia, Egypt o John Bandler, McMaster University ?Durrell?s Cyprus?Tainted Observations on the Colonial and Postcolonial? o Nabil Abdel-Al, United Nations ?The Cave: A Hideout for Conciliation with the Self & the Elements in Durrell?s An Irish Faustus and White Eagles over Serbia vs. E. M. Forster?s A Passage to India? o Peter Midgley, University of Alberta ?Lawrence Durrell?s Mountolive and Andr? Brink?s The Ambassador: The Colonizer and the Colonized?s Dialogue? -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070528/f3c10265/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Mon May 28 20:09:00 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 04:09:00 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton Message-ID: I have just read Eagleton's review of MacNiven's Durrell biography. Clearly Eagleton never read the book, nor has he the remotest idea of what Durrell's life or writings were about. Eagleton is a jerk. Why is a jerk like this presented at the Durrell School of Corfu? I would like to hear Richard Pine explain that. :Michael From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon May 28 20:24:32 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 20:24:32 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton Message-ID: <14987956.1180409072627.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> My question too. But I doubt if RP will answer it. I assume Dr. Eagleton wore matching shoes and was properly color/colour coordinated. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Haag >Sent: May 28, 2007 8:09 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton > >I have just read Eagleton's review of MacNiven's Durrell biography. >Clearly Eagleton never read the book, nor has he the remotest idea of >what Durrell's life or writings were about. Eagleton is a jerk. Why >is a jerk like this presented at the Durrell School of Corfu? I would >like to hear Richard Pine explain that. > >:Michael > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon May 28 20:37:34 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 23:37:34 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Terry Eagleton and The God Delusion In-Reply-To: <14987956.1180409072627.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl. sa.earthlink.net> References: <14987956.1180409072627.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070529033737.SRCH9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070528/53700b41/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon May 28 20:58:02 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 20:58:02 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Terry Eagleton and The God Delusion Message-ID: <20756336.1180411082562.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Well, Bill, it's a good thing Dr. Eagleton wasn't around to review that book with the audacity to call itself, The Origin of the Species, by that upstart, Charles Darwin of Christ's College, Cambridge. If such were the case, we'd have to satisfy ourselves with Intelligent Design. Isn't Dr. Eagleton a cleric of some sort? In which case, he may have a special line of communication. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: May 28, 2007 8:37 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Terry Eagleton and The God Delusion > >Does Terry have a doctorate? Ah, yes, Trinity, Cambridge. Wikipediacomments: > >Eagleton produced a scathing and widelyquoted[1] review ofRichardDawkins's TheGod Delusion in theLondonReview of Books in which he stated: "Imagine someone holdingforth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book ofBritish Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to readRichard Dawkins ontheology."[2]Although many of his texts include philosophicalaspects and debates, Eagleton himself does not claim to be aphilosopher[3] > >Perhaps Dr. Eagleton needs to be informed that he is not god. > >Bill > >PS Clinton Richard Dawkins (bornMarch 26,1941) is aBritishethologist,evolutionarybiologist, andpopularscience writer who holds theCharlesSimonyi Chair for the Public Understanding of Science atOxfordUniversity. > >*************************************** >W. L.Godshalk * >Department ofEnglish * >University ofCincinnati Stellar disorder * >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >513-281-5927 >*************************************** From durrells at otenet.gr Mon May 28 20:57:18 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 06:57:18 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Durrell among the Fixed Stars References: <9954612.1180384480491.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070528203849.QPPY26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <002901c7a1a5$73c2f1e0$0100000a@DSC01> Possibly Terry Eagleton. Despite his distaste for Durrell, he did lecture at the DSC in 2004. Not great. Is he a ponce? It seems we all are. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "william godshalk" To: "Bruce Redwine" ; Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell among the Fixed Stars > >> Besides, who's going to talk about Terry Eagleton ten years hence, >> if that long? > > You got that right. > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2294 (20070528) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From durrells at otenet.gr Mon May 28 21:02:00 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 07:02:00 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 King Lear rather than Macbeth References: <14397404.1180378413579.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <465B316C.5020107@wfu.edu> <20070528201818.QODK26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <465B49BC.4000406@wfu.edu> <20070528230216.RSTF9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <465B6710.2020902@wfu.edu><20070529002039.RHMM26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <465B747D.4020306@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <006b01c7a1a6$1c0d3860$0100000a@DSC01> I like the fact that you've written 'differance'. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: slighcl To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 3:31 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 King Lear rather than Macbeth On 5/28/2007 8:20 PM, william godshalk wrote: Well, that's worth thinking about? Why Macbeth? And why strike it out and add Lear? Was he considering Justine as Lady Macbeth? And was he thinking of the possibility that Macbeth would murder Duncan? (Who will play Duncan?) That Justine would urge the murder? That the apparently dynamic duo would break apart? Macbeth's paranoia is well-founded! They are out to get him -- and they do. Okay, perhaps Darley is Macbeth in the sense that he believes Nessim is out to get him. And will. Does the differance help here? To extend what you have said, Bill, I was reading back from Macbeth Lear and noting the portents, omens, "vertiginous uncertainty," and the "Beware" written in the sand in Greek--all of which I can see as making Macbeth a more obvious choice. But then what to do with the swerve to Lear? Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** __________ NOD32 2294 (20070528) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2294 (20070528) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070529/e6e74886/attachment.html From durrells at otenet.gr Mon May 28 21:04:15 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 07:04:15 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Eagleton References: <19596460.1180401181105.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <007601c7a1a6$6c149600$0100000a@DSC01> 'Dr' Anthony Durrell does claim to be an academic - he stated when he was self-abusing himself here that he taught at Wollongong Univ. But he is not listed among the staff there. I've already dealt with Eagleton at DSC. BTW, we don't call them 'conferences' - seminars is what we do. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Redwine" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:13 AM Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Eagleton > Charles, thanks for making available Terry Eagleton's highly negative > review of MacNiven's biography, which Eagleton apparently never read, > given the misinformation in it. But that's a minor detail. If I'm not > mistaken, wasn't Eagleton one of the principal speakers at the Durrell > conference on Corfu a few years back? If so, why? In the interest of > balance and diversity? Or just because he was a Big Fish happy to find a > little pond. If an enemy of Durrell was honored, why not a non-academic > such as Dr. Anthony Durrell? > > Bruce > > > Eagleton on Durrell: > >>As a textbook bohemian, Durrell knocked around Paris with Henry Miller and >>Anais Nin, and loafed about London with Dylan Thomas and a few stray >>surrealists, while describing his own artistic tendency as "Durrealist". >>Loftily contemptuous at first oft S Eliot, he changed his opinion of him >>overnight when Eliot, then editor at Faber, published one of his novels. >>He ended up as a bored, taxevading semi-recluse, dying in London in 1990 >>just as he was about to launch yet another marriage. Samuel Johnson's >>comment on such marital ventures - "the triumph of hope over experience" - >>has rarely been more apt. >> > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2294 (20070528) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From durrells at otenet.gr Mon May 28 21:06:25 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 07:06:25 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton References: Message-ID: <008001c7a1a6$b976c440$0100000a@DSC01> We wanted a big name. You don't get an audience by billing the little people. And I did it in spite of his negative attitude to LD - and he came here in spite..... But as I said (or should that be Said?) it was a disappointment. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Haag" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:09 AM Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton >I have just read Eagleton's review of MacNiven's Durrell biography. > Clearly Eagleton never read the book, nor has he the remotest idea of > what Durrell's life or writings were about. Eagleton is a jerk. Why > is a jerk like this presented at the Durrell School of Corfu? I would > like to hear Richard Pine explain that. > > :Michael > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2294 (20070528) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From durrells at otenet.gr Mon May 28 21:06:52 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 07:06:52 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton References: <14987956.1180409072627.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <008501c7a1a6$c9ca2620$0100000a@DSC01> Well I just have done so. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Redwine" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:24 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton > > My question too. But I doubt if RP will answer it. I assume Dr. Eagleton > wore matching shoes and was properly color/colour coordinated. > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Michael Haag >>Sent: May 28, 2007 8:09 PM >>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton >> >>I have just read Eagleton's review of MacNiven's Durrell biography. >>Clearly Eagleton never read the book, nor has he the remotest idea of >>what Durrell's life or writings were about. Eagleton is a jerk. Why >>is a jerk like this presented at the Durrell School of Corfu? I would >>like to hear Richard Pine explain that. >> >>:Michael >> >>_______________________________________________ >>ILDS mailing list >>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2294 (20070528) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Mon May 28 21:19:13 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 05:19:13 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton In-Reply-To: <008001c7a1a6$b976c440$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: What is striking about Eagleton is his lack of integrity. It is dishonest to pretend to review a book one has not read. The man's knowledge of Durrell and his works is clearly nil, and yet he is happy to lie his head off, and to do so publicly in the press, and to take money for being a liar. Nothing wrong with listening to the views of those who are critical of Durrell, but to indulge a liar because one thinks he is a 'big name' is a shocking admission. :Michael On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 05:06 am, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > We wanted a big name. You don't get an audience by billing the little > people. And I did it in spite of his negative attitude to LD - and he > came > here in spite..... But as I said (or should that be Said?) it was a > disappointment. > RP > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Haag" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:09 AM > Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton > > >> I have just read Eagleton's review of MacNiven's Durrell biography. >> Clearly Eagleton never read the book, nor has he the remotest idea of >> what Durrell's life or writings were about. Eagleton is a jerk. Why >> is a jerk like this presented at the Durrell School of Corfu? I would >> like to hear Richard Pine explain that. >> >> :Michael >> Title: Supreme trickster., By: Eagleton, Terry, New Statesman, 13647431, 04/24/98, Vol. 127, Issue 4382 Database: Academic Search Premier Find More Like ThisSUPREME TRICKSTER LAWRENCE DURRELL: A BIOGRAPHY Ian MacNiven Faber & Faber, ?25 My old Cambridge tutor, a deeply traditionalist scholar, used to have a copy of Lawrence Durrell's novel Justine lying with casual deliberateness on his desk. The book looked suspiciously unthumbed. It was there as testimony to his (entirely spurious) avantgardeness, for in the early 1960s Durrell was one of the last words in high-brow literary experiment. These days Durrell is probably even less of a remembered name than his zoologist brother Gerald, suggesting that aardvarks linger longer in the public mind than the avant-garde. Whatever happened to this audacious aesthete? Justine is one of the volumes of Durrell's Alexandria Quartet, a monument of fake exoticism and pseudo-profundity which some of us at the time mistook for great literature. It was an adolescent taste, rather in the way only 18 year olds regard Albert Camus as a great philosopher. In those years in Cambridge some of us saw ourselves as existentialists, which just meant that as frightened youngsters away from home we weren't feeling too chirpy. Today it is known in some quarters as post-structuralism. The brittle, hot-house preciousness of the Quartet lent itself wonderfully to parody: "The city is languid tonight, its mood half-churlish, halfremorseful. The sea glints a jaded mauve, wrinkled and knotted like the veined neck of a Lebanese brothel-keeper. Sipping his sherbert, Pelagius says that love is the stale morsel we are left with when desire lapses into memory." The Durrell who carved himself a literary colony out of Alexandria was himself the son of a colonialist. Born in India in 1912, the child of an affluent engineer, he spent the rest of his life drifting like a literary playboy from one fancy European hotel to another. Part of the fag-end of cosmopolitan modernism, he shacked up in Corfu, Athens, Egypt, Rhodes, Buenos Aires, Cyprus and France, changing wives almost as often as he changed countries. Some of this placeshifting was an attempt to keep one step ahead of the second world war, which he did his aestheticist best to ignore. While Hitler was on the rampage, Durrell was in search of a spot more sunshine. He despised politics, thought Marxists "synonymous with pigs and fools", and set his thoughts instead on the eternal. As a textbook bohemian, Durrell knocked around Paris with Henry Miller and Anais Nin, and loafed about London with Dylan Thomas and a few stray surrealists, while describing his own artistic tendency as "Durrealist". Loftily contemptuous at first oft S Eliot, he changed his opinion of him overnight when Eliot, then editor at Faber, published one of his novels. He ended up as a bored, taxevading semi-recluse, dying in London in 1990 just as he was about to launch yet another marriage. Samuel Johnson's comment on such marital ventures - "the triumph of hope over experience" - has rarely been more apt. Ian MacNiven has chronicled the flittings of this literary flaneur --"Larry" to him - in 700 pages of painstaking research. The book is a model of tenacious scholarship, but as Uma Thurman remarks to John Travolta in Pulp Fiction when he announces his need to take a pee: "That's just a little more information than I needed." The trouble with biographers is the dead-levelling way in which every scrap of information about their subject becomes as important as every other. The book resounds with the sound of a gnat being blasted by a Howitzer. Durrell once described himself as a "supreme trickster", and this is surely one reason why his celebrity proved so shortlived. The glittering surface of his prose conceals an emotional anaesthesia, for which the portentously "profound" reflections of the Quartet are meant to compensate. Like many poets, his verbal sensitivity is in inverse proportion to real human sympathy, a sublimated selfishness evident in his life as much as his work. What was real was what he could exoticise, convert to mythological archetype or high-sounding platitude. His Alexandria is a country of the mind, attractive precisely because its cultural and ethnic mix makes it at once nowhere and everywhere. If he plundered Egypt for its symbolic capital, he also groused about its "stinking inhabitants". His combination of elitism and aestheticism was finally outstripped by Nabokov, another rootless emigre who happened to possess a finer literary talent. Unlike Nabokov, Joyce and D H Lawrence, Durrell was on permanent vacation rather than in artistic exile. Perhaps because he had been born outside England, his work lacks that tension between home and abroad, the pains of expatriation as well as its creative possibilities, which marks his great modernist forebears. Whereas Joyce and Lawrence spent their lives on the run from cultural traditions they knew from the inside, Durrell never experienced them in the first place. Like his life, the overbred, cosmopolitan range of the Quartet conceals a cultural shallowness. MacNiven's naively uncritical narrative seems blind to this thinness, perhaps because, like many a biographer, he forgets to stand back from the trees to give us a glimpse of the wood. "To understand Lawrence Durrell," he admonishes us, "one must go to India, physically if possible..."; but this volume is quite expensive enough. >> _______________________________________________ >> From durrells at otenet.gr Mon May 28 21:34:31 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 07:34:31 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton References: Message-ID: <00c301c7a1aa$a6a8a190$0100000a@DSC01> The DSC did not 'indulge a liar' - that is a shocking accusation. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Haag" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:19 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton > What is striking about Eagleton is his lack of integrity. It is > dishonest to pretend to review a book one has not read. The man's > knowledge of Durrell and his works is clearly nil, and yet he is happy > to lie his head off, and to do so publicly in the press, and to take > money for being a liar. Nothing wrong with listening to the views of > those who are critical of Durrell, but to indulge a liar because one > thinks he is a 'big name' is a shocking admission. > > :Michael > > > On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 05:06 am, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > >> We wanted a big name. You don't get an audience by billing the little >> people. And I did it in spite of his negative attitude to LD - and he >> came >> here in spite..... But as I said (or should that be Said?) it was a >> disappointment. >> RP >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael Haag" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:09 AM >> Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton >> >> >>> I have just read Eagleton's review of MacNiven's Durrell biography. >>> Clearly Eagleton never read the book, nor has he the remotest idea of >>> what Durrell's life or writings were about. Eagleton is a jerk. Why >>> is a jerk like this presented at the Durrell School of Corfu? I would >>> like to hear Richard Pine explain that. >>> >>> :Michael >>> > > Title: Supreme trickster., By: Eagleton, Terry, > > New Statesman, 13647431, 04/24/98, Vol. 127, Issue 4382 > Database: Academic Search Premier > > Find More Like ThisSUPREME TRICKSTER > > LAWRENCE DURRELL: A BIOGRAPHY > > Ian MacNiven Faber & Faber, ?25 > > My old Cambridge tutor, a deeply traditionalist scholar, used to have a > copy of Lawrence Durrell's novel Justine lying with casual > deliberateness on his desk. The book looked suspiciously unthumbed. It > was there as testimony to his (entirely spurious) avantgardeness, for > in the early 1960s Durrell was one of the last words in high-brow > literary experiment. > > These days Durrell is probably even less of a remembered name than his > zoologist brother Gerald, suggesting that aardvarks linger longer in > the public mind than the avant-garde. Whatever happened to this > audacious aesthete? > > Justine is one of the volumes of Durrell's Alexandria Quartet, a > monument of fake exoticism and pseudo-profundity which some of us at > the time mistook for great literature. It was an adolescent taste, > rather in the way only 18 year olds regard Albert Camus as a great > philosopher. In those years in Cambridge some of us saw ourselves as > existentialists, which just meant that as frightened youngsters away > from home we weren't feeling too chirpy. Today it is known in some > quarters as post-structuralism. The brittle, hot-house preciousness of > the Quartet lent itself wonderfully to parody: "The city is languid > tonight, its mood half-churlish, halfremorseful. The sea glints a jaded > mauve, wrinkled and knotted like the veined neck of a Lebanese > brothel-keeper. Sipping his sherbert, Pelagius says that love is the > stale morsel we are left with when desire lapses into memory." > > The Durrell who carved himself a literary colony out of Alexandria was > himself the son of a colonialist. Born in India in 1912, the child of > an affluent engineer, he spent the rest of his life drifting like a > literary playboy from one fancy European hotel to another. Part of the > fag-end of cosmopolitan modernism, he shacked up in Corfu, Athens, > Egypt, Rhodes, Buenos Aires, Cyprus and France, changing wives almost > as often as he changed countries. Some of this placeshifting was an > attempt to keep one step ahead of the second world war, which he did > his aestheticist best to ignore. While Hitler was on the rampage, > Durrell was in search of a spot more sunshine. He despised politics, > thought Marxists "synonymous with pigs and fools", and set his thoughts > instead on the eternal. > > As a textbook bohemian, Durrell knocked around Paris with Henry Miller > and Anais Nin, and loafed about London with Dylan Thomas and a few > stray surrealists, while describing his own artistic tendency as > "Durrealist". Loftily contemptuous at first oft S Eliot, he changed his > opinion of him overnight when Eliot, then editor at Faber, published > one of his novels. He ended up as a bored, taxevading semi-recluse, > dying in London in 1990 just as he was about to launch yet another > marriage. Samuel Johnson's comment on such marital ventures - "the > triumph of hope over experience" - has rarely been more apt. > > Ian MacNiven has chronicled the flittings of this literary flaneur > --"Larry" to him - in 700 pages of painstaking research. The book is a > model of tenacious scholarship, but as Uma Thurman remarks to John > Travolta in Pulp Fiction when he announces his need to take a pee: > "That's just a little more information than I needed." > > The trouble with biographers is the dead-levelling way in which every > scrap of information about their subject becomes as important as every > other. The book resounds with the sound of a gnat being blasted by a > Howitzer. > > Durrell once described himself as a "supreme trickster", and this is > surely one reason why his celebrity proved so shortlived. The > glittering surface of his prose conceals an emotional anaesthesia, for > which the portentously "profound" reflections of the Quartet are meant > to compensate. Like many poets, his verbal sensitivity is in inverse > proportion to real human sympathy, a sublimated selfishness evident in > his life as much as his work. What was real was what he could > exoticise, convert to mythological archetype or high-sounding > platitude. His Alexandria is a country of the mind, attractive > precisely because its cultural and ethnic mix makes it at once nowhere > and everywhere. If he plundered Egypt for its symbolic capital, he also > groused about its "stinking inhabitants". His combination of elitism > and aestheticism was finally outstripped by Nabokov, another rootless > emigre who happened to possess a finer literary talent. > > Unlike Nabokov, Joyce and D H Lawrence, Durrell was on permanent > vacation rather than in artistic exile. Perhaps because he had been > born outside England, his work lacks that tension between home and > abroad, the pains of expatriation as well as its creative > possibilities, which marks his great modernist forebears. Whereas Joyce > and Lawrence spent their lives on the run from cultural traditions they > knew from the inside, Durrell never experienced them in the first > place. Like his life, the overbred, cosmopolitan range of the Quartet > conceals a cultural shallowness. MacNiven's naively uncritical > narrative seems blind to this thinness, perhaps because, like many a > biographer, he forgets to stand back from the trees to give us a > glimpse of the wood. "To understand Lawrence Durrell," he admonishes > us, "one must go to India, physically if possible..."; but this volume > is quite expensive enough. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > __________ NOD32 2294 (20070528) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Tue May 29 04:53:07 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 12:53:07 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton In-Reply-To: <00c301c7a1aa$a6a8a190$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <2A46914D-0DDB-11DC-9664-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> So the Durrell School of Corfu stands by the integrity of Terry Eagleton and his remarks about Lawrence Durrell. Bravo. :Michael On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 05:34 am, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > The DSC did not 'indulge a liar' - that is a shocking accusation. > RP > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Haag" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:19 AM > Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton > > >> What is striking about Eagleton is his lack of integrity. It is >> dishonest to pretend to review a book one has not read. The man's >> knowledge of Durrell and his works is clearly nil, and yet he is happy >> to lie his head off, and to do so publicly in the press, and to take >> money for being a liar. Nothing wrong with listening to the views of >> those who are critical of Durrell, but to indulge a liar because one >> thinks he is a 'big name' is a shocking admission. >> >> :Michael >> >> >> On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 05:06 am, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: >> >>> We wanted a big name. You don't get an audience by billing the little >>> people. And I did it in spite of his negative attitude to LD - and he >>> came >>> here in spite..... But as I said (or should that be Said?) it was a >>> disappointment. >>> RP >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michael Haag" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:09 AM >>> Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton >>> >>> >>>> I have just read Eagleton's review of MacNiven's Durrell biography. >>>> Clearly Eagleton never read the book, nor has he the remotest idea >>>> of >>>> what Durrell's life or writings were about. Eagleton is a jerk. >>>> Why >>>> is a jerk like this presented at the Durrell School of Corfu? I >>>> would >>>> like to hear Richard Pine explain that. >>>> >>>> :Michael >>>> >> >> Title: Supreme trickster., By: Eagleton, Terry, >> >> New Statesman, 13647431, 04/24/98, Vol. 127, Issue 4382 >> Database: Academic Search Premier >> >> Find More Like ThisSUPREME TRICKSTER >> >> LAWRENCE DURRELL: A BIOGRAPHY >> >> Ian MacNiven Faber & Faber, ?25 >> >> My old Cambridge tutor, a deeply traditionalist scholar, used to have >> a >> copy of Lawrence Durrell's novel Justine lying with casual >> deliberateness on his desk. The book looked suspiciously unthumbed. It >> was there as testimony to his (entirely spurious) avantgardeness, for >> in the early 1960s Durrell was one of the last words in high-brow >> literary experiment. >> >> These days Durrell is probably even less of a remembered name than his >> zoologist brother Gerald, suggesting that aardvarks linger longer in >> the public mind than the avant-garde. Whatever happened to this >> audacious aesthete? >> >> Justine is one of the volumes of Durrell's Alexandria Quartet, a >> monument of fake exoticism and pseudo-profundity which some of us at >> the time mistook for great literature. It was an adolescent taste, >> rather in the way only 18 year olds regard Albert Camus as a great >> philosopher. In those years in Cambridge some of us saw ourselves as >> existentialists, which just meant that as frightened youngsters away >> from home we weren't feeling too chirpy. Today it is known in some >> quarters as post-structuralism. The brittle, hot-house preciousness of >> the Quartet lent itself wonderfully to parody: "The city is languid >> tonight, its mood half-churlish, halfremorseful. The sea glints a >> jaded >> mauve, wrinkled and knotted like the veined neck of a Lebanese >> brothel-keeper. Sipping his sherbert, Pelagius says that love is the >> stale morsel we are left with when desire lapses into memory." >> >> The Durrell who carved himself a literary colony out of Alexandria was >> himself the son of a colonialist. Born in India in 1912, the child of >> an affluent engineer, he spent the rest of his life drifting like a >> literary playboy from one fancy European hotel to another. Part of the >> fag-end of cosmopolitan modernism, he shacked up in Corfu, Athens, >> Egypt, Rhodes, Buenos Aires, Cyprus and France, changing wives almost >> as often as he changed countries. Some of this placeshifting was an >> attempt to keep one step ahead of the second world war, which he did >> his aestheticist best to ignore. While Hitler was on the rampage, >> Durrell was in search of a spot more sunshine. He despised politics, >> thought Marxists "synonymous with pigs and fools", and set his >> thoughts >> instead on the eternal. >> >> As a textbook bohemian, Durrell knocked around Paris with Henry Miller >> and Anais Nin, and loafed about London with Dylan Thomas and a few >> stray surrealists, while describing his own artistic tendency as >> "Durrealist". Loftily contemptuous at first oft S Eliot, he changed >> his >> opinion of him overnight when Eliot, then editor at Faber, published >> one of his novels. He ended up as a bored, taxevading semi-recluse, >> dying in London in 1990 just as he was about to launch yet another >> marriage. Samuel Johnson's comment on such marital ventures - "the >> triumph of hope over experience" - has rarely been more apt. >> >> Ian MacNiven has chronicled the flittings of this literary flaneur >> --"Larry" to him - in 700 pages of painstaking research. The book is a >> model of tenacious scholarship, but as Uma Thurman remarks to John >> Travolta in Pulp Fiction when he announces his need to take a pee: >> "That's just a little more information than I needed." >> >> The trouble with biographers is the dead-levelling way in which every >> scrap of information about their subject becomes as important as every >> other. The book resounds with the sound of a gnat being blasted by a >> Howitzer. >> >> Durrell once described himself as a "supreme trickster", and this is >> surely one reason why his celebrity proved so shortlived. The >> glittering surface of his prose conceals an emotional anaesthesia, for >> which the portentously "profound" reflections of the Quartet are meant >> to compensate. Like many poets, his verbal sensitivity is in inverse >> proportion to real human sympathy, a sublimated selfishness evident in >> his life as much as his work. What was real was what he could >> exoticise, convert to mythological archetype or high-sounding >> platitude. His Alexandria is a country of the mind, attractive >> precisely because its cultural and ethnic mix makes it at once nowhere >> and everywhere. If he plundered Egypt for its symbolic capital, he >> also >> groused about its "stinking inhabitants". His combination of elitism >> and aestheticism was finally outstripped by Nabokov, another rootless >> emigre who happened to possess a finer literary talent. >> >> Unlike Nabokov, Joyce and D H Lawrence, Durrell was on permanent >> vacation rather than in artistic exile. Perhaps because he had been >> born outside England, his work lacks that tension between home and >> abroad, the pains of expatriation as well as its creative >> possibilities, which marks his great modernist forebears. Whereas >> Joyce >> and Lawrence spent their lives on the run from cultural traditions >> they >> knew from the inside, Durrell never experienced them in the first >> place. Like his life, the overbred, cosmopolitan range of the Quartet >> conceals a cultural shallowness. MacNiven's naively uncritical >> narrative seems blind to this thinness, perhaps because, like many a >> biographer, he forgets to stand back from the trees to give us a >> glimpse of the wood. "To understand Lawrence Durrell," he admonishes >> us, "one must go to India, physically if possible..."; but this volume >> is quite expensive enough. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> >> >> __________ NOD32 2294 (20070528) Information __________ >> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >> http://www.eset.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From bskordil at otenet.gr Tue May 29 05:30:17 2007 From: bskordil at otenet.gr (Beatrice Skordili) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:30:17 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton References: <00c301c7a1aa$a6a8a190$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <00cd01c7a1ed$1e0629f0$c6634a55@lacan> The question is not so much whether Eagleton, DeMan, Said, Foucault (names mentioned recently) are good or bad scholars as such, or even whether (which concerns two of them) they have said "bad" things about Durrell based on cursory readings, or even plain reputation. These people found currency in academic discussions because of the relevance of their work to the issues that became prominent, both theoretical and political, at their time. The scholars working on Joyce or Conrad (for instance) have managed to keep them current in the academy by demonstrating their relevance to these very theoretical and political debates. Unlike them Durrell scholarship--along with that of other worthwhile authors--has persisted in maintaining a distance from these debates, from these issues, evincing instead a desire to keep the author very much alive and intentional. Only the kind of work that will be commensurate to Durrell's own awareness and investment in all the issues that the academy later came to call post-structuralist theory (understood in the broadest terms) and the ways in which his work intervenes meaningfully in this field will make Durrell relevant in these discussions. The burden is with Durrell scholars not with an academic public which is not exposed to or made aware of such aspects. (I am not minimizing here the effort of the DSC, but in the absence of sufficient critical work along these lines, it is bound to remain circumscribed by its circumstances.) The question therefore is one of relevance and how our (Durrell's, Said's, whoever's) work answers to it. Beatrice Skordili From durrells at otenet.gr Tue May 29 05:57:20 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:57:20 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton References: <2A46914D-0DDB-11DC-9664-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <01f201c7a1f0$e50dd360$0100000a@DSC01> No it does not and you are being mischievous. I am not aware that a) Eagleton had not read MacNiven's biography - what proof do you have of that, since there are numerous points in his review which indicate that he HAD read it? (And please remember that anyone who is a professional reviewer, i.e. who earns a significant part of his/her income from reviewing, as I myself have done, does not in fact read the whole book - how could they, if they reviewed 2-3 books per week and held down a 'day job'?) b) Eagleton was a 'liar', which is what you have branded him. I never suggested that the DSC 'stands by the integrity' of Eagleton. I am perfectly aware of instances in which Eagleton has been devious, but can you name anyone, including yourself, who is not devious/lacks integrity. Come off it Michael, you are a nervous nelly pretending to be a great big/grisly brown bear, and it isnt convincing. Eagleton's remarks about Durrell are pretty close to what this discussion group has been saying for the past few weeks - rather more incisively and viciously, perhaps, but nonetheless somewhat devastating to D's reputation - and I can't say more because I have to direct a seminar on 'The Writer's Reputation' in 3 days' time. Rp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Haag" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton > So the Durrell School of Corfu stands by the integrity of Terry > Eagleton and his remarks about Lawrence Durrell. Bravo. > > :Michael > > > > On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 05:34 am, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > >> The DSC did not 'indulge a liar' - that is a shocking accusation. >> RP >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael Haag" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:19 AM >> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton >> >> >>> What is striking about Eagleton is his lack of integrity. It is >>> dishonest to pretend to review a book one has not read. The man's >>> knowledge of Durrell and his works is clearly nil, and yet he is happy >>> to lie his head off, and to do so publicly in the press, and to take >>> money for being a liar. Nothing wrong with listening to the views of >>> those who are critical of Durrell, but to indulge a liar because one >>> thinks he is a 'big name' is a shocking admission. >>> >>> :Michael >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 05:06 am, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: >>> >>>> We wanted a big name. You don't get an audience by billing the little >>>> people. And I did it in spite of his negative attitude to LD - and he >>>> came >>>> here in spite..... But as I said (or should that be Said?) it was a >>>> disappointment. >>>> RP >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Michael Haag" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:09 AM >>>> Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton >>>> >>>> >>>>> I have just read Eagleton's review of MacNiven's Durrell biography. >>>>> Clearly Eagleton never read the book, nor has he the remotest idea >>>>> of >>>>> what Durrell's life or writings were about. Eagleton is a jerk. >>>>> Why >>>>> is a jerk like this presented at the Durrell School of Corfu? I >>>>> would >>>>> like to hear Richard Pine explain that. >>>>> >>>>> :Michael >>>>> >>> >>> Title: Supreme trickster., By: Eagleton, Terry, >>> >>> New Statesman, 13647431, 04/24/98, Vol. 127, Issue 4382 >>> Database: Academic Search Premier >>> >>> Find More Like ThisSUPREME TRICKSTER >>> >>> LAWRENCE DURRELL: A BIOGRAPHY >>> >>> Ian MacNiven Faber & Faber, ?25 >>> >>> My old Cambridge tutor, a deeply traditionalist scholar, used to have >>> a >>> copy of Lawrence Durrell's novel Justine lying with casual >>> deliberateness on his desk. The book looked suspiciously unthumbed. It >>> was there as testimony to his (entirely spurious) avantgardeness, for >>> in the early 1960s Durrell was one of the last words in high-brow >>> literary experiment. >>> >>> These days Durrell is probably even less of a remembered name than his >>> zoologist brother Gerald, suggesting that aardvarks linger longer in >>> the public mind than the avant-garde. Whatever happened to this >>> audacious aesthete? >>> >>> Justine is one of the volumes of Durrell's Alexandria Quartet, a >>> monument of fake exoticism and pseudo-profundity which some of us at >>> the time mistook for great literature. It was an adolescent taste, >>> rather in the way only 18 year olds regard Albert Camus as a great >>> philosopher. In those years in Cambridge some of us saw ourselves as >>> existentialists, which just meant that as frightened youngsters away >>> from home we weren't feeling too chirpy. Today it is known in some >>> quarters as post-structuralism. The brittle, hot-house preciousness of >>> the Quartet lent itself wonderfully to parody: "The city is languid >>> tonight, its mood half-churlish, halfremorseful. The sea glints a >>> jaded >>> mauve, wrinkled and knotted like the veined neck of a Lebanese >>> brothel-keeper. Sipping his sherbert, Pelagius says that love is the >>> stale morsel we are left with when desire lapses into memory." >>> >>> The Durrell who carved himself a literary colony out of Alexandria was >>> himself the son of a colonialist. Born in India in 1912, the child of >>> an affluent engineer, he spent the rest of his life drifting like a >>> literary playboy from one fancy European hotel to another. Part of the >>> fag-end of cosmopolitan modernism, he shacked up in Corfu, Athens, >>> Egypt, Rhodes, Buenos Aires, Cyprus and France, changing wives almost >>> as often as he changed countries. Some of this placeshifting was an >>> attempt to keep one step ahead of the second world war, which he did >>> his aestheticist best to ignore. While Hitler was on the rampage, >>> Durrell was in search of a spot more sunshine. He despised politics, >>> thought Marxists "synonymous with pigs and fools", and set his >>> thoughts >>> instead on the eternal. >>> >>> As a textbook bohemian, Durrell knocked around Paris with Henry Miller >>> and Anais Nin, and loafed about London with Dylan Thomas and a few >>> stray surrealists, while describing his own artistic tendency as >>> "Durrealist". Loftily contemptuous at first oft S Eliot, he changed >>> his >>> opinion of him overnight when Eliot, then editor at Faber, published >>> one of his novels. He ended up as a bored, taxevading semi-recluse, >>> dying in London in 1990 just as he was about to launch yet another >>> marriage. Samuel Johnson's comment on such marital ventures - "the >>> triumph of hope over experience" - has rarely been more apt. >>> >>> Ian MacNiven has chronicled the flittings of this literary flaneur >>> --"Larry" to him - in 700 pages of painstaking research. The book is a >>> model of tenacious scholarship, but as Uma Thurman remarks to John >>> Travolta in Pulp Fiction when he announces his need to take a pee: >>> "That's just a little more information than I needed." >>> >>> The trouble with biographers is the dead-levelling way in which every >>> scrap of information about their subject becomes as important as every >>> other. The book resounds with the sound of a gnat being blasted by a >>> Howitzer. >>> >>> Durrell once described himself as a "supreme trickster", and this is >>> surely one reason why his celebrity proved so shortlived. The >>> glittering surface of his prose conceals an emotional anaesthesia, for >>> which the portentously "profound" reflections of the Quartet are meant >>> to compensate. Like many poets, his verbal sensitivity is in inverse >>> proportion to real human sympathy, a sublimated selfishness evident in >>> his life as much as his work. What was real was what he could >>> exoticise, convert to mythological archetype or high-sounding >>> platitude. His Alexandria is a country of the mind, attractive >>> precisely because its cultural and ethnic mix makes it at once nowhere >>> and everywhere. If he plundered Egypt for its symbolic capital, he >>> also >>> groused about its "stinking inhabitants". His combination of elitism >>> and aestheticism was finally outstripped by Nabokov, another rootless >>> emigre who happened to possess a finer literary talent. >>> >>> Unlike Nabokov, Joyce and D H Lawrence, Durrell was on permanent >>> vacation rather than in artistic exile. Perhaps because he had been >>> born outside England, his work lacks that tension between home and >>> abroad, the pains of expatriation as well as its creative >>> possibilities, which marks his great modernist forebears. Whereas >>> Joyce >>> and Lawrence spent their lives on the run from cultural traditions >>> they >>> knew from the inside, Durrell never experienced them in the first >>> place. Like his life, the overbred, cosmopolitan range of the Quartet >>> conceals a cultural shallowness. MacNiven's naively uncritical >>> narrative seems blind to this thinness, perhaps because, like many a >>> biographer, he forgets to stand back from the trees to give us a >>> glimpse of the wood. "To understand Lawrence Durrell," he admonishes >>> us, "one must go to India, physically if possible..."; but this volume >>> is quite expensive enough. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ILDS mailing list >>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ NOD32 2294 (20070528) Information __________ >>> >>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Tue May 29 06:25:17 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 14:25:17 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes Message-ID: <0AB74779-0DE8-11DC-90FC-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Two points of interest. 1) Anthony Durrell is a senior lecturer at the medical faculty of the University of Wollongong, as he truthfully stated during his famous talk at the Durrell School of Corfu. 2) I attach a photograph of Dr Durrell wearing his non-colour matching shoes. Note furthermore that his trousers do not match his jacket, nor do either of these match his shoes. (If you click on the photograph you can enlarge it.) :Michael > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 5_5_2005 12_50 PM_0001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27844 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070529/48994183/attachment.jpg From durrells at otenet.gr Tue May 29 06:57:16 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:57:16 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes References: <0AB74779-0DE8-11DC-90FC-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <029601c7a1f9$44239620$0100000a@DSC01> Your statement conflicts with the fact that there is no person named Anthony Durrell on the list of staff at this university. In the picture, the students look a little young to be even in first year uni. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Haag" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:25 PM Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes > Two points of interest. > > 1) Anthony Durrell is a senior lecturer at the medical faculty of the > University of Wollongong, as he truthfully stated during his famous > talk at the Durrell School of Corfu. > > 2) I attach a photograph of Dr Durrell wearing his non-colour matching > shoes. Note furthermore that his trousers do not match his jacket, nor > do either of these match his shoes. (If you click on the photograph > you can enlarge it.) > > :Michael > >> > > > > __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Tue May 29 07:11:20 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:11:20 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes In-Reply-To: <029601c7a1f9$44239620$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <797052E6-0DEE-11DC-90FC-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Nevertheless it is true that Dr Durrell is on the medical faculty at the university. The photograph is not taken at the university. :Michael On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 02:57 pm, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > Your statement conflicts with the fact that there is no person named > Anthony > Durrell on the list of staff at this university. In the picture, the > students look a little young to be even in first year uni. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Haag" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:25 PM > Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes > > >> Two points of interest. >> >> 1) Anthony Durrell is a senior lecturer at the medical faculty of the >> University of Wollongong, as he truthfully stated during his famous >> talk at the Durrell School of Corfu. >> >> 2) I attach a photograph of Dr Durrell wearing his non-colour matching >> shoes. Note furthermore that his trousers do not match his jacket, >> nor >> do either of these match his shoes. (If you click on the photograph >> you can enlarge it.) >> >> :Michael >> >>> >> >> >> >> __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ >> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >> http://www.eset.com >> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> >> >> __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ >> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >> http://www.eset.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Tue May 29 07:11:56 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:11:56 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- book reviewing for fun and profit Message-ID: <8F14FD8E-0DEE-11DC-90FC-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> In his review of MacNiven's biography of Lawrence Durrell, Eagleton makes a number of broad remarks about Durrell's work, expressions of his views on the literary worth of Durrell's poetry and novels. Whatever one thinks of Eagleton's points of view, these remarks offer no indication that he read the biography. I have picked out from the review the statements of fact made by Eagleton. These offer the only indication that he may or may not have read the biography. In every case his statements are false and can readily be falsified by reference to the biography. If this is what people like Eagleton and Richard Pine practice in the name of book reviewing, it would be better if they grew turnips. :Michael >>> Born in India in 1912, the child of >>> an affluent engineer, he spent the rest of his life drifting like a >>> literary playboy from one fancy European hotel to another. -- Durrell was indeed born in India in 1912 to a successful self-made father. But it is untrue that Durrell spent the rest of his life drifting from one fancy European hotel to another. He lived in no hotels at all, except as a boy when his mother briefly lived at a residential hotel (which she did for economy) in south London, or during his first period in Corfu when looking for a home, or briefly when a refugee in Egypt. He worked the whole of his life, from before his majority until his dying day, entirely supporting himself through jobs and his writing -- the exceptions being the year 1934 when he lived in a cottage in Sussex and the years 1936-39 when he lived in Corfu, and of course during these exact years he wrote three novels and any number of poems. Not exactly drifting, not exactly a literary playboy; more like hard work. >>> Part of the >>> fag-end of cosmopolitan modernism, he shacked up in Corfu, Athens, >>> Egypt, Rhodes, Buenos Aires, Cyprus and France, changing wives almost >>> as often as he changed countries. Some of this placeshifting was an >>> attempt to keep one step ahead of the second world war. ... While >>> Hitler was on the rampage, >>> Durrell was in search of a spot more sunshine. -- As MacNiven's biography makes clear, this place-shifting was dictated by his work; furthermore Durrell attempted to join the armed forces while in Greece. His positions, which were valuable ones, in Greece and in Egypt put him directly in the path of the invading Germans. His position in Yugoslavia, not mentioned above, again put him in an extremely exposed position. Not the behaviour of a shirker. As for the wives, well, bad luck; one had a long history of instability, another died. >>> As a textbook bohemian, Durrell knocked around Paris with Henry >>> Miller >>> and Anais Nin, and loafed about London with Dylan Thomas and a few >>> stray surrealists. -- Durrell did not knock about Paris, nor did he loaf about London. In each case his visits had purpose and were directly linked to having his work published. Durrell specifically rejected bohemianism and surrealism. >>> Loftily contemptuous at first oft S Eliot, he changed >>> his >>> opinion of him overnight when Eliot, then editor at Faber, published >>> one of his novels. -- Durrell was not loftily contemptuous of Eliot; he did increasingly admire him as their acquaintance developed, most specifically when Eliot rejected the Black Book. >>> He ended up as a bored, taxevading semi-recluse, >>> dying in London in 1990. -- Durrell was not a tax evader. He did not live in France for any tax purpose. He paid all taxes that were due. He did not die in London. From durrells at otenet.gr Tue May 29 07:51:42 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:51:42 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- book reviewing for fun and profit References: <8F14FD8E-0DEE-11DC-90FC-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <02c601c7a200$df0f4c90$0100000a@DSC01> The aggressiveness which M Haag turns onto people who either disagree with him or, worse, contradict him, is disturbing. Bull in a china shop is nothing like this. It is perfectly clear that Eagleton had, at least, skimmed the book for essential facts. The fact that E dislikes D and says so is nothing to do with his reading of MacNiven (Ian, do you read these messages?). Any prejudiced reviewer (and all reviewers are prejudiced) will twist the book under review to display those prejudices. M Haag cannot prove that Eagleton did not read (at least) parts of MacNiven, and his statement that E is a 'liar' is absolutely unfounded. I hold no candle for E (or for MacN for that matter) but this snide attacking is quite uncalled for and out of place - if you have evidence, produce it. If you don't, stay silent (I think it was Wittgenstein who started that,...) Cmon Michael, finish the book you were supposed to deliver last autumn so that we can review it. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Haag" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 5:11 PM Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- book reviewing for fun and profit > In his review of MacNiven's biography of Lawrence Durrell, Eagleton > makes a number of broad remarks about Durrell's work, expressions of > his views on the literary worth of Durrell's poetry and novels. > Whatever one thinks of Eagleton's points of view, these remarks offer > no indication that he read the biography. > > I have picked out from the review the statements of fact made by > Eagleton. These offer the only indication that he may or may not have > read the biography. In every case his statements are false and can > readily be falsified by reference to the biography. If this is what > people like Eagleton and Richard Pine practice in the name of book > reviewing, it would be better if they grew turnips. > > :Michael > > > >>>> Born in India in 1912, the child of >>>> an affluent engineer, he spent the rest of his life drifting like a >>>> literary playboy from one fancy European hotel to another. > > -- Durrell was indeed born in India in 1912 to a successful self-made > father. But it is untrue that Durrell spent the rest of his life > drifting from one fancy European hotel to another. He lived in no > hotels at all, except as a boy when his mother briefly lived at a > residential hotel (which she did for economy) in south London, or > during his first period in Corfu when looking for a home, or briefly > when a refugee in Egypt. He worked the whole of his life, from before > his majority until his dying day, entirely supporting himself through > jobs and his writing -- the exceptions being the year 1934 when he > lived in a cottage in Sussex and the years 1936-39 when he lived in > Corfu, and of course during these exact years he wrote three novels and > any number of poems. Not exactly drifting, not exactly a literary > playboy; more like hard work. > > >>>> Part of the >>>> fag-end of cosmopolitan modernism, he shacked up in Corfu, Athens, >>>> Egypt, Rhodes, Buenos Aires, Cyprus and France, changing wives almost >>>> as often as he changed countries. Some of this placeshifting was an >>>> attempt to keep one step ahead of the second world war. ... While >>>> Hitler was on the rampage, >>>> Durrell was in search of a spot more sunshine. > > -- As MacNiven's biography makes clear, this place-shifting was > dictated by his work; furthermore Durrell attempted to join the armed > forces while in Greece. His positions, which were valuable ones, in > Greece and in Egypt put him directly in the path of the invading > Germans. His position in Yugoslavia, not mentioned above, again put > him in an extremely exposed position. Not the behaviour of a shirker. > As for the wives, well, bad luck; one had a long history of > instability, another died. > > > >>>> As a textbook bohemian, Durrell knocked around Paris with Henry >>>> Miller >>>> and Anais Nin, and loafed about London with Dylan Thomas and a few >>>> stray surrealists. > > -- Durrell did not knock about Paris, nor did he loaf about London. In > each case his visits had purpose and were directly linked to having his > work published. Durrell specifically rejected bohemianism and > surrealism. > > > >>>> Loftily contemptuous at first oft S Eliot, he changed >>>> his >>>> opinion of him overnight when Eliot, then editor at Faber, published >>>> one of his novels. > > -- Durrell was not loftily contemptuous of Eliot; he did increasingly > admire him as their acquaintance developed, most specifically when > Eliot rejected the Black Book. > > > >>>> He ended up as a bored, taxevading semi-recluse, >>>> dying in London in 1990. > > -- Durrell was not a tax evader. He did not live in France for any tax > purpose. He paid all taxes that were due. He did not die in London. > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From durrells at otenet.gr Tue May 29 07:52:23 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:52:23 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes References: <797052E6-0DEE-11DC-90FC-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <02cb01c7a200$f7169320$0100000a@DSC01> How do you know that it is 'true'? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Haag" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 5:11 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes > Nevertheless it is true that Dr Durrell is on the medical faculty at > the university. > > The photograph is not taken at the university. > > :Michael > > > > On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 02:57 pm, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > >> Your statement conflicts with the fact that there is no person named >> Anthony >> Durrell on the list of staff at this university. In the picture, the >> students look a little young to be even in first year uni. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael Haag" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:25 PM >> Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes >> >> >>> Two points of interest. >>> >>> 1) Anthony Durrell is a senior lecturer at the medical faculty of the >>> University of Wollongong, as he truthfully stated during his famous >>> talk at the Durrell School of Corfu. >>> >>> 2) I attach a photograph of Dr Durrell wearing his non-colour matching >>> shoes. Note furthermore that his trousers do not match his jacket, >>> nor >>> do either of these match his shoes. (If you click on the photograph >>> you can enlarge it.) >>> >>> :Michael >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ >>> >>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ILDS mailing list >>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ >>> >>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Tue May 29 08:19:52 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:19:52 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- book reviewing for fun and profit In-Reply-To: <02c601c7a200$df0f4c90$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <0C3DA5F1-0DF8-11DC-8FE5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> There is no evidence whatsoever that Eagleton skimmed the book for essential facts. A reviewer is meant to review the book in question; that requires some evidence that he has read it, some attention to it somewhere in his review. That care, that attention, that respect, that integrity is utterly lacking. The review is an outright disgrace. It is an offence to Durrell, an offence to MacNiven, and most of all it is an offence to the readers of the review. Why does the Durrell School have such people addressing it? :Michael On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 03:51 pm, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > The aggressiveness which M Haag turns onto people who either disagree > with > him or, worse, contradict him, is disturbing. Bull in a china shop is > nothing like this. It is perfectly clear that Eagleton had, at least, > skimmed the book for essential facts. The fact that E dislikes D and > says so > is nothing to do with his reading of MacNiven (Ian, do you read these > messages?). Any prejudiced reviewer (and all reviewers are prejudiced) > will > twist the book under review to display those prejudices. M Haag cannot > prove > that Eagleton did not read (at least) parts of MacNiven, and his > statement > that E is a 'liar' is absolutely unfounded. I hold no candle for E (or > for > MacN for that matter) but this snide attacking is quite uncalled for > and out > of place - if you have evidence, produce it. If you don't, stay silent > (I > think it was Wittgenstein who started that,...) > Cmon Michael, finish the book you were supposed to deliver last autumn > so > that we can review it. > RP > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Haag" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 5:11 PM > Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- book reviewing for fun and profit > > >> In his review of MacNiven's biography of Lawrence Durrell, Eagleton >> makes a number of broad remarks about Durrell's work, expressions of >> his views on the literary worth of Durrell's poetry and novels. >> Whatever one thinks of Eagleton's points of view, these remarks offer >> no indication that he read the biography. >> >> I have picked out from the review the statements of fact made by >> Eagleton. These offer the only indication that he may or may not have >> read the biography. In every case his statements are false and can >> readily be falsified by reference to the biography. If this is what >> people like Eagleton and Richard Pine practice in the name of book >> reviewing, it would be better if they grew turnips. >> >> :Michael >> >> >> >>>>> Born in India in 1912, the child of >>>>> an affluent engineer, he spent the rest of his life drifting like a >>>>> literary playboy from one fancy European hotel to another. >> >> -- Durrell was indeed born in India in 1912 to a successful self-made >> father. But it is untrue that Durrell spent the rest of his life >> drifting from one fancy European hotel to another. He lived in no >> hotels at all, except as a boy when his mother briefly lived at a >> residential hotel (which she did for economy) in south London, or >> during his first period in Corfu when looking for a home, or briefly >> when a refugee in Egypt. He worked the whole of his life, from before >> his majority until his dying day, entirely supporting himself through >> jobs and his writing -- the exceptions being the year 1934 when he >> lived in a cottage in Sussex and the years 1936-39 when he lived in >> Corfu, and of course during these exact years he wrote three novels >> and >> any number of poems. Not exactly drifting, not exactly a literary >> playboy; more like hard work. >> >> >>>>> Part of the >>>>> fag-end of cosmopolitan modernism, he shacked up in Corfu, Athens, >>>>> Egypt, Rhodes, Buenos Aires, Cyprus and France, changing wives >>>>> almost >>>>> as often as he changed countries. Some of this placeshifting was an >>>>> attempt to keep one step ahead of the second world war. ... While >>>>> Hitler was on the rampage, >>>>> Durrell was in search of a spot more sunshine. >> >> -- As MacNiven's biography makes clear, this place-shifting was >> dictated by his work; furthermore Durrell attempted to join the armed >> forces while in Greece. His positions, which were valuable ones, in >> Greece and in Egypt put him directly in the path of the invading >> Germans. His position in Yugoslavia, not mentioned above, again put >> him in an extremely exposed position. Not the behaviour of a shirker. >> As for the wives, well, bad luck; one had a long history of >> instability, another died. >> >> >> >>>>> As a textbook bohemian, Durrell knocked around Paris with Henry >>>>> Miller >>>>> and Anais Nin, and loafed about London with Dylan Thomas and a few >>>>> stray surrealists. >> >> -- Durrell did not knock about Paris, nor did he loaf about London. >> In >> each case his visits had purpose and were directly linked to having >> his >> work published. Durrell specifically rejected bohemianism and >> surrealism. >> >> >> >>>>> Loftily contemptuous at first oft S Eliot, he changed >>>>> his >>>>> opinion of him overnight when Eliot, then editor at Faber, >>>>> published >>>>> one of his novels. >> >> -- Durrell was not loftily contemptuous of Eliot; he did increasingly >> admire him as their acquaintance developed, most specifically when >> Eliot rejected the Black Book. >> >> >> >>>>> He ended up as a bored, taxevading semi-recluse, >>>>> dying in London in 1990. >> >> -- Durrell was not a tax evader. He did not live in France for any >> tax >> purpose. He paid all taxes that were due. He did not die in London. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> >> __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ >> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >> http://www.eset.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Tue May 29 08:20:32 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:20:32 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes In-Reply-To: <02cb01c7a200$f7169320$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <24110072-0DF8-11DC-8FE5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> How do you know it is not true? Try asking the university. :michael On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 03:52 pm, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > How do you know that it is 'true'? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Haag" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 5:11 PM > Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes > > >> Nevertheless it is true that Dr Durrell is on the medical faculty at >> the university. >> >> The photograph is not taken at the university. >> >> :Michael >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 02:57 pm, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: >> >>> Your statement conflicts with the fact that there is no person named >>> Anthony >>> Durrell on the list of staff at this university. In the picture, the >>> students look a little young to be even in first year uni. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michael Haag" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:25 PM >>> Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes >>> >>> >>>> Two points of interest. >>>> >>>> 1) Anthony Durrell is a senior lecturer at the medical faculty of >>>> the >>>> University of Wollongong, as he truthfully stated during his famous >>>> talk at the Durrell School of Corfu. >>>> >>>> 2) I attach a photograph of Dr Durrell wearing his non-colour >>>> matching >>>> shoes. Note furthermore that his trousers do not match his jacket, >>>> nor >>>> do either of these match his shoes. (If you click on the photograph >>>> you can enlarge it.) >>>> >>>> :Michael >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ >>>> >>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> --------- >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ILDS mailing list >>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ >>>> >>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ILDS mailing list >>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> >> __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ >> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >> http://www.eset.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Tue May 29 08:23:37 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:23:37 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes In-Reply-To: <02cb01c7a200$f7169320$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <92C0C2A0-0DF8-11DC-8FE5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Primary research. :Michael On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 03:52 pm, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > How do you know that it is 'true'? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Haag" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 5:11 PM > Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes > > >> Nevertheless it is true that Dr Durrell is on the medical faculty at >> the university. >> >> The photograph is not taken at the university. >> >> :Michael >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 02:57 pm, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: >> >>> Your statement conflicts with the fact that there is no person named >>> Anthony >>> Durrell on the list of staff at this university. In the picture, the >>> students look a little young to be even in first year uni. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michael Haag" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:25 PM >>> Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes >>> >>> >>>> Two points of interest. >>>> >>>> 1) Anthony Durrell is a senior lecturer at the medical faculty of >>>> the >>>> University of Wollongong, as he truthfully stated during his famous >>>> talk at the Durrell School of Corfu. >>>> >>>> 2) I attach a photograph of Dr Durrell wearing his non-colour >>>> matching >>>> shoes. Note furthermore that his trousers do not match his jacket, >>>> nor >>>> do either of these match his shoes. (If you click on the photograph >>>> you can enlarge it.) >>>> >>>> :Michael >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ >>>> >>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> --------- >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ILDS mailing list >>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ >>>> >>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ILDS mailing list >>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> >> __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ >> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >> http://www.eset.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From ilyas.khan at crosby.com Tue May 29 08:15:22 2007 From: ilyas.khan at crosby.com (Ilyas Khan) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 23:15:22 +0800 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- book reviewing for fun and profit In-Reply-To: <8F14FD8E-0DEE-11DC-90FC-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Michael, I am afraid that Eagleton follows right in the slipstream of a growing tradition of reviewers from the 80's onwards who don't realise that their lack of anything other than the most passing of acquaintances with a book will get picked up. I make no comment here with respect to RP - and will avoid any interpersonal stuff between the two of you, but I do add my voice to the increasing number of people who bemoan the standards of the English book reviewer. On 5/29/07 10:11 PM, "Michael Haag" wrote: > In his review of MacNiven's biography of Lawrence Durrell, Eagleton > makes a number of broad remarks about Durrell's work, expressions of > his views on the literary worth of Durrell's poetry and novels. > Whatever one thinks of Eagleton's points of view, these remarks offer > no indication that he read the biography. > > I have picked out from the review the statements of fact made by > Eagleton. These offer the only indication that he may or may not have > read the biography. In every case his statements are false and can > readily be falsified by reference to the biography. If this is what > people like Eagleton and Richard Pine practice in the name of book > reviewing, it would be better if they grew turnips. > > :Michael > > > >>>> Born in India in 1912, the child of >>>> an affluent engineer, he spent the rest of his life drifting like a >>>> literary playboy from one fancy European hotel to another. > > -- Durrell was indeed born in India in 1912 to a successful self-made > father. But it is untrue that Durrell spent the rest of his life > drifting from one fancy European hotel to another. He lived in no > hotels at all, except as a boy when his mother briefly lived at a > residential hotel (which she did for economy) in south London, or > during his first period in Corfu when looking for a home, or briefly > when a refugee in Egypt. He worked the whole of his life, from before > his majority until his dying day, entirely supporting himself through > jobs and his writing -- the exceptions being the year 1934 when he > lived in a cottage in Sussex and the years 1936-39 when he lived in > Corfu, and of course during these exact years he wrote three novels and > any number of poems. Not exactly drifting, not exactly a literary > playboy; more like hard work. > > >>>> Part of the >>>> fag-end of cosmopolitan modernism, he shacked up in Corfu, Athens, >>>> Egypt, Rhodes, Buenos Aires, Cyprus and France, changing wives almost >>>> as often as he changed countries. Some of this placeshifting was an >>>> attempt to keep one step ahead of the second world war. ... While >>>> Hitler was on the rampage, >>>> Durrell was in search of a spot more sunshine. > > -- As MacNiven's biography makes clear, this place-shifting was > dictated by his work; furthermore Durrell attempted to join the armed > forces while in Greece. His positions, which were valuable ones, in > Greece and in Egypt put him directly in the path of the invading > Germans. His position in Yugoslavia, not mentioned above, again put > him in an extremely exposed position. Not the behaviour of a shirker. > As for the wives, well, bad luck; one had a long history of > instability, another died. > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Tue May 29 08:37:16 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:37:16 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- book reviewing for fun and profit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7AE8B7F7-0DFA-11DC-8FE5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> I have only mentioned Richard Pine in the same breath because he himself did -- he said that reviewers like himself and Eagleton did not have the time to read entire books when reviewing them but he insisted that Eagleton did at least skim MacNiven's book. I can find no evidence of that in the review. If Pine equates his own efforts with those of Eagleton's, and if he finds that sort of thing excusable, then he is asking for the sort of reply I gave. I have also reviewed books, and I would be ashamed to turn in anything as shabby and dishonest as that. :Michael On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 04:15 pm, Ilyas Khan wrote: > Michael, I am afraid that Eagleton follows right in the slipstream of a > growing tradition of reviewers from the 80's onwards who don't realise > that > their lack of anything other than the most passing of acquaintances > with a > book will get picked up. > > I make no comment here with respect to RP - and will avoid any > interpersonal > stuff between the two of you, but I do add my voice to the increasing > number > of people who bemoan the standards of the English book reviewer. > > > On 5/29/07 10:11 PM, "Michael Haag" wrote: > >> In his review of MacNiven's biography of Lawrence Durrell, Eagleton >> makes a number of broad remarks about Durrell's work, expressions of >> his views on the literary worth of Durrell's poetry and novels. >> Whatever one thinks of Eagleton's points of view, these remarks offer >> no indication that he read the biography. >> >> I have picked out from the review the statements of fact made by >> Eagleton. These offer the only indication that he may or may not have >> read the biography. In every case his statements are false and can >> readily be falsified by reference to the biography. If this is what >> people like Eagleton and Richard Pine practice in the name of book >> reviewing, it would be better if they grew turnips. >> >> :Michael >> >> >> >>>>> Born in India in 1912, the child of >>>>> an affluent engineer, he spent the rest of his life drifting like a >>>>> literary playboy from one fancy European hotel to another. >> >> -- Durrell was indeed born in India in 1912 to a successful self-made >> father. But it is untrue that Durrell spent the rest of his life >> drifting from one fancy European hotel to another. He lived in no >> hotels at all, except as a boy when his mother briefly lived at a >> residential hotel (which she did for economy) in south London, or >> during his first period in Corfu when looking for a home, or briefly >> when a refugee in Egypt. He worked the whole of his life, from before >> his majority until his dying day, entirely supporting himself through >> jobs and his writing -- the exceptions being the year 1934 when he >> lived in a cottage in Sussex and the years 1936-39 when he lived in >> Corfu, and of course during these exact years he wrote three novels >> and >> any number of poems. Not exactly drifting, not exactly a literary >> playboy; more like hard work. >> >> >>>>> Part of the >>>>> fag-end of cosmopolitan modernism, he shacked up in Corfu, Athens, >>>>> Egypt, Rhodes, Buenos Aires, Cyprus and France, changing wives >>>>> almost >>>>> as often as he changed countries. Some of this placeshifting was an >>>>> attempt to keep one step ahead of the second world war. ... While >>>>> Hitler was on the rampage, >>>>> Durrell was in search of a spot more sunshine. >> >> -- As MacNiven's biography makes clear, this place-shifting was >> dictated by his work; furthermore Durrell attempted to join the armed >> forces while in Greece. His positions, which were valuable ones, in >> Greece and in Egypt put him directly in the path of the invading >> Germans. His position in Yugoslavia, not mentioned above, again put >> him in an extremely exposed position. Not the behaviour of a shirker. >> As for the wives, well, bad luck; one had a long history of >> instability, another died. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From holdsworth at rogers.com Tue May 29 09:05:20 2007 From: holdsworth at rogers.com (David Holdsworth) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 12:05:20 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton In-Reply-To: <00cd01c7a1ed$1e0629f0$c6634a55@lacan> Message-ID: <01d101c7a20b$2be052d0$6401a8c0@D13W0611> Beatrice Skordili wrote: The scholars working on Joyce or Conrad (for instance) have managed to keep them current in the academy by demonstrating their relevance to these very theoretical and political debates. Unlike them Durrell scholarship--along with that of other worthwhile authors--has persisted in maintaining a distance from these debates, from these issues, evincing instead a desire to keep the author very much alive and intentional. Only the kind of work that will be commensurate to Durrell's own awareness and investment in all the issues that the academy later came to call post-structuralist theory (understood in the broadest terms) and the ways in which his work intervenes meaningfully in this field will make Durrell relevant in these discussions. This is an interesting intervention - the role of the academy in shaping Durrell's reputation a generation after his death. Presumably all the professional scholars understand exactly its implications for criticism of Durrell and agree or disagree. But it would be helpful to those non-scholars among us if Beatrice could elaborate this point a bit. Can she provide any specific examples of critical approaches to Joyce and Conrad which in her view Durrell scholarship should be following? Any comments from the scholars? Thanks. David Holdsworth _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070529/b62bcd07/attachment.html From ilyas.khan at crosby.com Tue May 29 09:17:55 2007 From: ilyas.khan at crosby.com (Ilyas Khan) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 00:17:55 +0800 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton In-Reply-To: <01d101c7a20b$2be052d0$6401a8c0@D13W0611> Message-ID: David, I have quite a different view. Having lived with, known, and, on many occasions, supported ?scholars?, I think they have a rather quaint (when observed from afar) and disquieting (when seen up close) inclination towards affectation. This list see?s plenty of those examples. Using clunky sounding words, and showing off one?s awareness of the various texts is not a substitute for flying the flag (in my view). Conrad and Maugham, and actually also Woodehouse get widely read, widely acknowledged as great writers, and then fall into place as ?stars? when the middle ground of avid readers who do not get paid to be scholars are excited by the author in question. I don't mean to sound as authoritative as this little spiel sounds, but the scholars have only one of many roles to play. Right now Durrell is overlooked, in my view, ?cos too many ordinary people have still to read him. Publishers, literary journals, newspapers and even distributors have important roles to play. I don't have an answer to your question of Beatrice (and I look forward to her next posting), but your question is a very good one beyond the specifics of the ?role of the academy?. I would say, in closing, that I take great pleasure for this list, and all its participants, and am really encouraged by the scholar?s acceptance of the non-scholarly view. Maybe a sign that we are ?getting there ?? any more non scholars out there ? On 5/30/07 12:05 AM, "David Holdsworth" wrote: > > > Beatrice Skordili wrote: > > The scholars working on Joyce or Conrad (for instance) have managed to keep > them current in the academy by demonstrating their relevance to these very > theoretical and political debates. Unlike them Durrell scholarship--along with > that of other worthwhile authors--has persisted in maintaining a distance from > these debates, from these issues, evincing instead a desire to keep the author > very much alive and intentional. Only the kind of work that will be > commensurate to Durrell's own awareness and investment in all the issues that > the academy later came to call post-structuralist theory (understood in the > broadest terms) and the ways in which his work intervenes > meaningfully in this field will make Durrell relevant in these discussions. > > This is an interesting intervention ? the role of the academy in shaping > Durrell?s reputation a generation after his death. > > Presumably all the professional scholars understand exactly its implications > for criticism of Durrell and agree or disagree. But it would be helpful to > those non-scholars among us if Beatrice could elaborate this point a bit. Can > she provide any specific examples of critical approaches to Joyce and Conrad > which in her view Durrell scholarship should be following? Any comments from > the scholars? > > Thanks. > > David Holdsworth > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/50f4913a/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue May 29 10:16:26 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:16:26 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Sunspots and Literary Theory Message-ID: <32194466.1180458986748.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Academic fads and schools of scholarship are as fickle as sunspots. And here, I am not referring to the kind of close analysis admirably performed by Charles, Bill, Michael, and others. I'm referring to the likes of Eagleton, de Man, Said, Bhabha, Derrida, Foucault, and others -- those who are deemed theoretically "relevant" to whatever the current academic fashion may be. The Academy has never much cared for Durrell, as long as I can remember. So why pander to it? To get published in PMLA, ELH, Representations, or Critical Inquiry? Take the long view and do the work that is now being done here, on this List. Lawrence Durrell will survive, continue to be a great writer, continue to find new readers, and the Academy will go on its own way, occasionally creating mild static in the discourse of the day. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Beatrice Skordili >Sent: May 29, 2007 5:30 AM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton > >The question is not so much whether Eagleton, DeMan, Said, Foucault (names >mentioned recently) are good or bad scholars as such, or even whether (which >concerns two of them) they have said "bad" things about Durrell based on >cursory readings, or even plain reputation. These people found currency in >academic discussions because of the relevance of their work to the issues >that became prominent, both theoretical and political, at their time. The >scholars working on Joyce or Conrad (for instance) have managed to keep them >current in the academy by demonstrating their relevance to these very >theoretical and political debates. Unlike them Durrell scholarship--along >with that of other worthwhile authors--has persisted in maintaining a >distance from these debates, from these issues, evincing instead a desire to >keep the author very much alive and intentional. Only the kind of work that >will be commensurate to Durrell's own awareness and investment in all the >issues that the academy later came to call post-structuralist theory >(understood in the broadest terms) and the ways in which his work intervenes >meaningfully in this field will make Durrell relevant in these discussions. >The burden is with Durrell scholars not with an academic public which is not >exposed to or made aware of such aspects. (I am not minimizing here the >effort of the DSC, but in the absence of sufficient critical work along >these lines, it is bound to remain circumscribed by its circumstances.) > The question therefore is one of relevance and how our (Durrell's, >Said's, whoever's) work answers to it. > >Beatrice Skordili From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 29 10:18:20 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 13:18:20 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 King Lear rather than Macbeth In-Reply-To: <006b01c7a1a6$1c0d3860$0100000a@DSC01> References: <14397404.1180378413579.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <465B316C.5020107@wfu.edu> <20070528201818.QODK26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <465B49BC.4000406@wfu.edu> <20070528230216.RSTF9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <465B6710.2020902@wfu.edu> <20070529002039.RHMM26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <465B747D.4020306@wfu.edu> <006b01c7a1a6$1c0d3860$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070529171814.IXHT13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070529/146485e7/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 29 10:38:52 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 13:38:52 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes In-Reply-To: <029601c7a1f9$44239620$0100000a@DSC01> References: <0AB74779-0DE8-11DC-90FC-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <029601c7a1f9$44239620$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070529173855.WLVD9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> I did an advanced search, and got four hits. At 09:57 AM 5/29/2007, you wrote: >Your statement conflicts with the fact that there is no person named Anthony >Durrell on the list of staff at this university. In the picture, the >students look a little young to be even in first year uni. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Michael Haag" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:25 PM >Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes > > > > Two points of interest. > > > > 1) Anthony Durrell is a senior lecturer at the medical faculty of the > > University of Wollongong, as he truthfully stated during his famous > > talk at the Durrell School of Corfu. > > > > 2) I attach a photograph of Dr Durrell wearing his non-colour matching > > shoes. Note furthermore that his trousers do not match his jacket, nor > > do either of these match his shoes. (If you click on the photograph > > you can enlarge it.) > > > > :Michael > > > >> > > > > > > > > __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ > > > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ILDS mailing list > > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > > > > > __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ > > > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > > http://www.eset.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 29 10:59:52 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 13:59:52 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Presentism In-Reply-To: <00cd01c7a1ed$1e0629f0$c6634a55@lacan> References: <00c301c7a1aa$a6a8a190$0100000a@DSC01> <00cd01c7a1ed$1e0629f0$c6634a55@lacan> Message-ID: <20070529175945.VZFJ26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Beatrice, I think in Shakespeare studies your position would be labeled "presentist." Terry Hawkes has a recent book on the subject. In the case of Hawkes, he wants to see Shakespeare from the perspective of recent politics. I'm not sure that we still read Shakespeare because of his political and social positions (whatever they might be). Cultural Materialists would not agree. Bill >Eagleton, DeMan, Said, Foucault (names >mentioned recently) are good or bad scholars as such, or even whether (which >concerns two of them) they have said "bad" things about Durrell based on >cursory readings, or even plain reputation. These people found currency in >academic discussions because of the relevance of their work to the issues >that became prominent, both theoretical and political, at their time. The >scholars working on Joyce or Conrad (for instance) have managed to keep them >current in the academy by demonstrating their relevance to these very >theoretical and political debates. *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From durrells at otenet.gr Tue May 29 11:01:42 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 21:01:42 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes References: <92C0C2A0-0DF8-11DC-8FE5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <031401c7a21b$6991fba0$0100000a@DSC01> Explain ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Haag" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes > Primary research. > > :Michael > > > On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 03:52 pm, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > >> How do you know that it is 'true'? >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael Haag" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 5:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes >> >> >>> Nevertheless it is true that Dr Durrell is on the medical faculty at >>> the university. >>> >>> The photograph is not taken at the university. >>> >>> :Michael >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 02:57 pm, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: >>> >>>> Your statement conflicts with the fact that there is no person named >>>> Anthony >>>> Durrell on the list of staff at this university. In the picture, the >>>> students look a little young to be even in first year uni. >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Michael Haag" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:25 PM >>>> Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - The doctor and the shoes >>>> >>>> >>>>> Two points of interest. >>>>> >>>>> 1) Anthony Durrell is a senior lecturer at the medical faculty of >>>>> the >>>>> University of Wollongong, as he truthfully stated during his famous >>>>> talk at the Durrell School of Corfu. >>>>> >>>>> 2) I attach a photograph of Dr Durrell wearing his non-colour >>>>> matching >>>>> shoes. Note furthermore that his trousers do not match his jacket, >>>>> nor >>>>> do either of these match his shoes. (If you click on the photograph >>>>> you can enlarge it.) >>>>> >>>>> :Michael >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ >>>>> >>>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> -- >>>> --------- >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> ILDS mailing list >>>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ >>>>> >>>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ILDS mailing list >>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ILDS mailing list >>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>> >>> >>> __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ >>> >>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue May 29 11:16:20 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 11:16:20 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Bulls and Bullying Message-ID: <7275063.1180462580899.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I don't see why Richard Pine feels compelled to goad Michael Haag into rushing his latest book into publication. That kind of taunt, the second such as I recall, is another kind of bullying worthy of the playground or a review by Terry Eagleton. The gold standard that Haag set with Alexandria: City of Memory needs no further justification, in my view. I patiently wait for Haag's new book, but I'm certainly not waiting for any reviews by reviewers who like to skim their material. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Durrell School of Corfu >Sent: May 29, 2007 7:51 AM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine -- book reviewing for fun and profit > >The aggressiveness which M Haag turns onto people who either disagree with >him or, worse, contradict him, is disturbing. Bull in a china shop is >nothing like this. It is perfectly clear that Eagleton had, at least, >skimmed the book for essential facts. The fact that E dislikes D and says so >is nothing to do with his reading of MacNiven (Ian, do you read these >messages?). Any prejudiced reviewer (and all reviewers are prejudiced) will >twist the book under review to display those prejudices. M Haag cannot prove >that Eagleton did not read (at least) parts of MacNiven, and his statement >that E is a 'liar' is absolutely unfounded. I hold no candle for E (or for >MacN for that matter) but this snide attacking is quite uncalled for and out >of place - if you have evidence, produce it. If you don't, stay silent (I >think it was Wittgenstein who started that,...) >Cmon Michael, finish the book you were supposed to deliver last autumn so >that we can review it. >RP > From durrells at otenet.gr Tue May 29 11:08:00 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 21:08:00 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- book reviewing for fun and profit References: <7AE8B7F7-0DFA-11DC-8FE5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <031b01c7a21c$4b14b220$0100000a@DSC01> This is ridiculous. Professional reviewers (of which I was one in the 1970s-80s) must skim other than the most notable titles otherwise they can't do the work they are paid for (another topic we shall be addressing next week without any input from the ILDS). It is obvious that Eagleton couldnt possibly have acquired the minimal facts unlesss he had skimmed MacNiven. Eagleton (for whom, I repeat, I hold no candle) was not 'shabby and dishonest' - he just wrote what he felt about LD - is that so wrong? Opinions please,. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Haag" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine -- book reviewing for fun and profit > > I have only mentioned Richard Pine in the same breath because he > himself did -- he said that reviewers like himself and Eagleton did not > have the time to read entire books when reviewing them but he insisted > that Eagleton did at least skim MacNiven's book. I can find no > evidence of that in the review. If Pine equates his own efforts with > those of Eagleton's, and if he finds that sort of thing excusable, then > he is asking for the sort of reply I gave. I have also reviewed books, > and I would be ashamed to turn in anything as shabby and dishonest as > that. > > :Michael > > > On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 04:15 pm, Ilyas Khan wrote: > >> Michael, I am afraid that Eagleton follows right in the slipstream of a >> growing tradition of reviewers from the 80's onwards who don't realise >> that >> their lack of anything other than the most passing of acquaintances >> with a >> book will get picked up. >> >> I make no comment here with respect to RP - and will avoid any >> interpersonal >> stuff between the two of you, but I do add my voice to the increasing >> number >> of people who bemoan the standards of the English book reviewer. >> >> >> On 5/29/07 10:11 PM, "Michael Haag" wrote: >> >>> In his review of MacNiven's biography of Lawrence Durrell, Eagleton >>> makes a number of broad remarks about Durrell's work, expressions of >>> his views on the literary worth of Durrell's poetry and novels. >>> Whatever one thinks of Eagleton's points of view, these remarks offer >>> no indication that he read the biography. >>> >>> I have picked out from the review the statements of fact made by >>> Eagleton. These offer the only indication that he may or may not have >>> read the biography. In every case his statements are false and can >>> readily be falsified by reference to the biography. If this is what >>> people like Eagleton and Richard Pine practice in the name of book >>> reviewing, it would be better if they grew turnips. >>> >>> :Michael >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> Born in India in 1912, the child of >>>>>> an affluent engineer, he spent the rest of his life drifting like a >>>>>> literary playboy from one fancy European hotel to another. >>> >>> -- Durrell was indeed born in India in 1912 to a successful self-made >>> father. But it is untrue that Durrell spent the rest of his life >>> drifting from one fancy European hotel to another. He lived in no >>> hotels at all, except as a boy when his mother briefly lived at a >>> residential hotel (which she did for economy) in south London, or >>> during his first period in Corfu when looking for a home, or briefly >>> when a refugee in Egypt. He worked the whole of his life, from before >>> his majority until his dying day, entirely supporting himself through >>> jobs and his writing -- the exceptions being the year 1934 when he >>> lived in a cottage in Sussex and the years 1936-39 when he lived in >>> Corfu, and of course during these exact years he wrote three novels >>> and >>> any number of poems. Not exactly drifting, not exactly a literary >>> playboy; more like hard work. >>> >>> >>>>>> Part of the >>>>>> fag-end of cosmopolitan modernism, he shacked up in Corfu, Athens, >>>>>> Egypt, Rhodes, Buenos Aires, Cyprus and France, changing wives >>>>>> almost >>>>>> as often as he changed countries. Some of this placeshifting was an >>>>>> attempt to keep one step ahead of the second world war. ... While >>>>>> Hitler was on the rampage, >>>>>> Durrell was in search of a spot more sunshine. >>> >>> -- As MacNiven's biography makes clear, this place-shifting was >>> dictated by his work; furthermore Durrell attempted to join the armed >>> forces while in Greece. His positions, which were valuable ones, in >>> Greece and in Egypt put him directly in the path of the invading >>> Germans. His position in Yugoslavia, not mentioned above, again put >>> him in an extremely exposed position. Not the behaviour of a shirker. >>> As for the wives, well, bad luck; one had a long history of >>> instability, another died. >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From durrells at otenet.gr Tue May 29 11:10:38 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 21:10:38 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 King Lear rather than Macbeth References: <14397404.1180378413579.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net><465B316C.5020107@wfu.edu><20070528201818.QODK26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><465B49BC.4000406@wfu.edu><20070528230216.RSTF9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><465B6710.2020902@wfu.edu><20070529002039.RHMM26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><465B747D.4020306@wfu.edu> <006b01c7a1a6$1c0d3860$0100000a@DSC01> <20070529171814.IXHT13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <034601c7a21c$a975eb90$0100000a@DSC01> Oh Noh ----- Original Message ----- From: william godshalk To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 8:18 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 King Lear rather than Macbeth I like the fact that you've written 'differance'. RP Merely a French misspelling. __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070529/602b7e9b/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Tue May 29 11:30:42 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 19:30:42 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- book reviewing for fun and profit In-Reply-To: <031b01c7a21c$4b14b220$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: What minimum facts? Name the minimum facts that Eagleton gleaned from his reading of MacNiven's biography -- the minimum accurate facts. :Michael On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 07:08 pm, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > This is ridiculous. Professional reviewers (of which I was one in the > 1970s-80s) must skim other than the most notable titles otherwise they > can't > do the work they are paid for (another topic we shall be addressing > next > week without any input from the ILDS). It is obvious that Eagleton > couldnt > possibly have acquired the minimal facts unlesss he had skimmed > MacNiven. > Eagleton (for whom, I repeat, I hold no candle) was not 'shabby and > dishonest' - he just wrote what he felt about LD - is that so wrong? > Opinions please,. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Haag" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:37 PM > Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine -- book reviewing for fun and profit > > >> >> I have only mentioned Richard Pine in the same breath because he >> himself did -- he said that reviewers like himself and Eagleton did >> not >> have the time to read entire books when reviewing them but he insisted >> that Eagleton did at least skim MacNiven's book. I can find no >> evidence of that in the review. If Pine equates his own efforts with >> those of Eagleton's, and if he finds that sort of thing excusable, >> then >> he is asking for the sort of reply I gave. I have also reviewed >> books, >> and I would be ashamed to turn in anything as shabby and dishonest as >> that. >> >> :Michael >> >> >> On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 04:15 pm, Ilyas Khan wrote: >> >>> Michael, I am afraid that Eagleton follows right in the slipstream >>> of a >>> growing tradition of reviewers from the 80's onwards who don't >>> realise >>> that >>> their lack of anything other than the most passing of acquaintances >>> with a >>> book will get picked up. >>> >>> I make no comment here with respect to RP - and will avoid any >>> interpersonal >>> stuff between the two of you, but I do add my voice to the increasing >>> number >>> of people who bemoan the standards of the English book reviewer. >>> >>> >>> On 5/29/07 10:11 PM, "Michael Haag" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> In his review of MacNiven's biography of Lawrence Durrell, Eagleton >>>> makes a number of broad remarks about Durrell's work, expressions of >>>> his views on the literary worth of Durrell's poetry and novels. >>>> Whatever one thinks of Eagleton's points of view, these remarks >>>> offer >>>> no indication that he read the biography. >>>> >>>> I have picked out from the review the statements of fact made by >>>> Eagleton. These offer the only indication that he may or may not >>>> have >>>> read the biography. In every case his statements are false and can >>>> readily be falsified by reference to the biography. If this is what >>>> people like Eagleton and Richard Pine practice in the name of book >>>> reviewing, it would be better if they grew turnips. >>>> >>>> :Michael >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Born in India in 1912, the child of >>>>>>> an affluent engineer, he spent the rest of his life drifting >>>>>>> like a >>>>>>> literary playboy from one fancy European hotel to another. >>>> >>>> -- Durrell was indeed born in India in 1912 to a successful >>>> self-made >>>> father. But it is untrue that Durrell spent the rest of his life >>>> drifting from one fancy European hotel to another. He lived in no >>>> hotels at all, except as a boy when his mother briefly lived at a >>>> residential hotel (which she did for economy) in south London, or >>>> during his first period in Corfu when looking for a home, or briefly >>>> when a refugee in Egypt. He worked the whole of his life, from >>>> before >>>> his majority until his dying day, entirely supporting himself >>>> through >>>> jobs and his writing -- the exceptions being the year 1934 when he >>>> lived in a cottage in Sussex and the years 1936-39 when he lived in >>>> Corfu, and of course during these exact years he wrote three novels >>>> and >>>> any number of poems. Not exactly drifting, not exactly a literary >>>> playboy; more like hard work. >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Part of the >>>>>>> fag-end of cosmopolitan modernism, he shacked up in Corfu, >>>>>>> Athens, >>>>>>> Egypt, Rhodes, Buenos Aires, Cyprus and France, changing wives >>>>>>> almost >>>>>>> as often as he changed countries. Some of this placeshifting was >>>>>>> an >>>>>>> attempt to keep one step ahead of the second world war. ... While >>>>>>> Hitler was on the rampage, >>>>>>> Durrell was in search of a spot more sunshine. >>>> >>>> -- As MacNiven's biography makes clear, this place-shifting was >>>> dictated by his work; furthermore Durrell attempted to join the >>>> armed >>>> forces while in Greece. His positions, which were valuable ones, in >>>> Greece and in Egypt put him directly in the path of the invading >>>> Germans. His position in Yugoslavia, not mentioned above, again put >>>> him in an extremely exposed position. Not the behaviour of a >>>> shirker. >>>> As for the wives, well, bad luck; one had a long history of >>>> instability, another died. >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ILDS mailing list >>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> >> __________ NOD32 2295 (20070529) Information __________ >> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >> http://www.eset.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Tue May 29 11:34:50 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 19:34:50 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- book reviewing for fun and profit In-Reply-To: <031b01c7a21c$4b14b220$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <490DC783-0E13-11DC-B29F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> By way of being helpful I have included, below, Eagleton's review. This will make it very easy for Richard Pine to highlight all those facts, all those accurate facts gleaned from the book under review, which demonstrate how much attention Eagleton gave to Ian MacNiven's biography of Durrell. :Michael On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 07:08 pm, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > This is ridiculous. Professional reviewers (of which I was one in the > 1970s-80s) must skim other than the most notable titles otherwise they > can't > do the work they are paid for (another topic we shall be addressing > next > week without any input from the ILDS). It is obvious that Eagleton > couldnt > possibly have acquired the minimal facts unlesss he had skimmed > MacNiven. > Eagleton (for whom, I repeat, I hold no candle) was not 'shabby and > dishonest' - he just wrote what he felt about LD - is that so wrong? > Opinions please,. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Haag" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:37 PM > Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine -- book reviewing for fun and profit > Title: Supreme trickster., By: Eagleton, Terry, New Statesman, 13647431, 04/24/98, Vol. 127, Issue 4382 Database: Academic Search Premier Find More Like ThisSUPREME TRICKSTER LAWRENCE DURRELL: A BIOGRAPHY Ian MacNiven Faber & Faber, ?25 My old Cambridge tutor, a deeply traditionalist scholar, used to have a copy of Lawrence Durrell's novel Justine lying with casual deliberateness on his desk. The book looked suspiciously unthumbed. It was there as testimony to his (entirely spurious) avantgardeness, for in the early 1960s Durrell was one of the last words in high-brow literary experiment. These days Durrell is probably even less of a remembered name than his zoologist brother Gerald, suggesting that aardvarks linger longer in the public mind than the avant-garde. Whatever happened to this audacious aesthete? Justine is one of the volumes of Durrell's Alexandria Quartet, a monument of fake exoticism and pseudo-profundity which some of us at the time mistook for great literature. It was an adolescent taste, rather in the way only 18 year olds regard Albert Camus as a great philosopher. In those years in Cambridge some of us saw ourselves as existentialists, which just meant that as frightened youngsters away from home we weren't feeling too chirpy. Today it is known in some quarters as post-structuralism. The brittle, hot-house preciousness of the Quartet lent itself wonderfully to parody: "The city is languid tonight, its mood half-churlish, halfremorseful. The sea glints a jaded mauve, wrinkled and knotted like the veined neck of a Lebanese brothel-keeper. Sipping his sherbert, Pelagius says that love is the stale morsel we are left with when desire lapses into memory." The Durrell who carved himself a literary colony out of Alexandria was himself the son of a colonialist. Born in India in 1912, the child of an affluent engineer, he spent the rest of his life drifting like a literary playboy from one fancy European hotel to another. Part of the fag-end of cosmopolitan modernism, he shacked up in Corfu, Athens, Egypt, Rhodes, Buenos Aires, Cyprus and France, changing wives almost as often as he changed countries. Some of this placeshifting was an attempt to keep one step ahead of the second world war, which he did his aestheticist best to ignore. While Hitler was on the rampage, Durrell was in search of a spot more sunshine. He despised politics, thought Marxists "synonymous with pigs and fools", and set his thoughts instead on the eternal. As a textbook bohemian, Durrell knocked around Paris with Henry Miller and Anais Nin, and loafed about London with Dylan Thomas and a few stray surrealists, while describing his own artistic tendency as "Durrealist". Loftily contemptuous at first oft S Eliot, he changed his opinion of him overnight when Eliot, then editor at Faber, published one of his novels. He ended up as a bored, taxevading semi-recluse, dying in London in 1990 just as he was about to launch yet another marriage. Samuel Johnson's comment on such marital ventures - "the triumph of hope over experience" - has rarely been more apt. Ian MacNiven has chronicled the flittings of this literary flaneur --"Larry" to him - in 700 pages of painstaking research. The book is a model of tenacious scholarship, but as Uma Thurman remarks to John Travolta in Pulp Fiction when he announces his need to take a pee: "That's just a little more information than I needed." The trouble with biographers is the dead-levelling way in which every scrap of information about their subject becomes as important as every other. The book resounds with the sound of a gnat being blasted by a Howitzer. Durrell once described himself as a "supreme trickster", and this is surely one reason why his celebrity proved so shortlived. The glittering surface of his prose conceals an emotional anaesthesia, for which the portentously "profound" reflections of the Quartet are meant to compensate. Like many poets, his verbal sensitivity is in inverse proportion to real human sympathy, a sublimated selfishness evident in his life as much as his work. What was real was what he could exoticise, convert to mythological archetype or high-sounding platitude. His Alexandria is a country of the mind, attractive precisely because its cultural and ethnic mix makes it at once nowhere and everywhere. If he plundered Egypt for its symbolic capital, he also groused about its "stinking inhabitants". His combination of elitism and aestheticism was finally outstripped by Nabokov, another rootless emigre who happened to possess a finer literary talent. Unlike Nabokov, Joyce and D H Lawrence, Durrell was on permanent vacation rather than in artistic exile. Perhaps because he had been born outside England, his work lacks that tension between home and abroad, the pains of expatriation as well as its creative possibilities, which marks his great modernist forebears. Whereas Joyce and Lawrence spent their lives on the run from cultural traditions they knew from the inside, Durrell never experienced them in the first place. Like his life, the overbred, cosmopolitan range of the Quartet conceals a cultural shallowness. MacNiven's naively uncritical narrative seems blind to this thinness, perhaps because, like many a biographer, he forgets to stand back from the trees to give us a glimpse of the wood. "To understand Lawrence Durrell," he admonishes us, "one must go to India, physically if possible..."; but this volume is quite expensive enough. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 6748 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070529/eadeb092/attachment.bin From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue May 29 11:35:51 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 11:35:51 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Is that wrong? Message-ID: <10848055.1180463751884.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Yes. Because skimming implies that the reviewer is not reviewing, carefully judging the material on its own merits, rather he or she is simply confirming his or her prejudices. I.e., the reviewer is grandstanding, which apparently is what reviewing has become these days, according to RP. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Durrell School of Corfu >Sent: May 29, 2007 11:08 AM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine -- book reviewing for fun and profit > >This is ridiculous. Professional reviewers (of which I was one in the >1970s-80s) must skim other than the most notable titles otherwise they can't >do the work they are paid for (another topic we shall be addressing next >week without any input from the ILDS). It is obvious that Eagleton couldnt >possibly have acquired the minimal facts unlesss he had skimmed MacNiven. >Eagleton (for whom, I repeat, I hold no candle) was not 'shabby and >dishonest' - he just wrote what he felt about LD - is that so wrong? >Opinions please,. >----- Original Message ----- > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 29 11:49:43 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 14:49:43 -0400 Subject: [ilds] academic reviewers In-Reply-To: <7275063.1180462580899.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.e arthlink.net> References: <7275063.1180462580899.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070529184956.JRFB13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Just to make sure that everyone understands, professional reviewers are not academic reviewers. We academics may take months to read and analyze the book we are reviewing, and then carefully write a substantial essay that indeed has something to add to the book's major thesis. We rarely get paid for our labors -- beyond keeping the book that we've reviewed. If Eagleton writes as an academic, then he should follow our basic procedures of honest reviewing. If he writes as a hack, then he should not be held to academic standards -- should he? Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bskordil at otenet.gr Tue May 29 11:48:24 2007 From: bskordil at otenet.gr (Beatrice Skordili) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 21:48:24 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton References: <01d101c7a20b$2be052d0$6401a8c0@D13W0611> Message-ID: <015101c7a221$f19e1c80$c6634a55@lacan> David, I am happy to oblige and to pick up a couple of issues from others as I go along. Indicatively, I will give a couple of prominent examples of scholarship that have kept these Joyce and Conrad current: For Joyce, among many, Jacques Derrida's essay "Ulysses Gramophone" for instance is characteristic of the way in which seminal work in deconstruction maintains Joyce currency in these debates. Equally, Edward Said's dissertation-turned-book _Joseph Conrad and the Fiction of Autobiography_ and Said's constant references to Conrad are one of the ways which have kept the academy returning to Conrad for discussions of postcolonialism and race. I don't think the same exact theoretical trends necessarily apply to Durrell. However, A careful reading of the _Key to Modern British Poetry_ and Durrell's several interviews WITH his literary works reveals a great investment in and study of psychoanalysis: Freud, prominently, despite Durrell's random statements that may seem to dismiss Freud (which need to be read in context and not be taken as wholesale comments) as well as Jung, Groddeck, etc. But Durrell's Freud is very much Lacanian since it is concerned with the "writing of the unconscious" (I won't elaborate here since it will take us too far afield). Later Durrell talks also about reading Lacan; but his association with Denis DeRougemont, an author discussed extensively by Lacan, and the way it came about does it not bespeak Durrell's investment or familiarity in the same context of issues? Also, Maurice Girodias, son of Durrell's first publisher of the Black Book and Durrell's publisher in Paris in the late fifties, was also publishing Bataille in the forties and fifties (St. Jorre 50), making highly likely an early contact with Bataille's work. Durrell was certainly aware of the intellectual ferment that was going on in Paris at the time he was there: in fact, after the sixties, there are scattered mentions of Tel Quel, the major French theoretical journal of the time, and to most major theorists. For instance Durrell mentions Foucault, Barthes, Sartre, Leiris, and Lacan "in the Paris of [his] youth" in "Endpapers and Inklings." Unfortunately, both Durrell biographies do not seem to document French readings and contacts as well as the Anglo-American ones. Voracious reader that Durrell was, I think he kept up very well with what was going on in the Paris of his youth, filtering, understanding, misunderstanding, modifying and raising objections to things. None of this should be taken as mere dismissal, as his work shows traces of these influences. The same people who chose to ignore this are the ones who clamor to keep Durrell out of the discussions to which his work is relevant. Issues where Durrell would have been relevant: I will choose as an instance the much denigrated _Revolt of Aphrodite_: the issues of identity construction and free will, the issue of memory, the issue of culture as a text that is being constructed by its texts (see Abel), the cyborg (automaton) and most especially woman as cyborg. Although, Durrell's text was indirectly responsible for bringing about the whole cyborg issue (what did was _Do Androids dream of Electric Sheep_ or _Bladerunner_ the movie, which is clearly indebted to Durrell's _Revolt_). But Durrell's book would have put really interesting spins on this discussion, had it ever come up--which it didn't! I don't think that the academy is irrelevant to the ordinary reader--who is affected by academic trends, willy-nilly, by college curricula that keep books in print or not--and by the pervasive atmosphere of discussion. The academic fads--and I will agree to this term--reveal the issues that concern us at large, like it or not, however, problematically they might do so (and I am troubled about this very much). But, I will repeat that the issue is whether a work (an author, etc) is relevant at a particular moment. So to paraphrase Kennedy: Ask not what the academy can do for Durrell, but what Durrell can do for the academy. The ordinary reader is a fiction, anyway. A whole system of paratext (interviews, reviews, websites, movies, references) determines what makes it to the prominent displays of bookstores (and their various promotionals) and this in turn determines to a large extent what a lot of people will pick up to read (and this is to pick up only one strand of how ordinary readers are constructs as well; there are bookclubs, blogs, and many more such strands) or is anyone going to claim that readers are created in a vacuum? (Oh, I forgot: they are full-conscious, freely acting, intentional beings!!!) The "ordinary reader's Durrell" is construct promoted by a certain type of scholarship that chooses to read his work one way--and not the other--to discuss only particular issues--and not others--to recognize particular influences--and not others. I see I am getting again into the mode of a long response, which as I have said before, I don't consider appropriate for an email list. I hope I have made my position a bit clearer. Beatrice ----- Original Message ----- From: David Holdsworth To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine - Eagleton Beatrice Skordili wrote: The scholars working on Joyce or Conrad (for instance) have managed to keep them current in the academy by demonstrating their relevance to these very theoretical and political debates. Unlike them Durrell scholarship--along with that of other worthwhile authors--has persisted in maintaining a distance from these debates, from these issues, evincing instead a desire to keep the author very much alive and intentional. Only the kind of work that will be commensurate to Durrell's own awareness and investment in all the issues that the academy later came to call post-structuralist theory (understood in the broadest terms) and the ways in which his work intervenes meaningfully in this field will make Durrell relevant in these discussions. This is an interesting intervention - the role of the academy in shaping Durrell's reputation a generation after his death. Presumably all the professional scholars understand exactly its implications for criticism of Durrell and agree or disagree. But it would be helpful to those non-scholars among us if Beatrice could elaborate this point a bit. Can she provide any specific examples of critical approaches to Joyce and Conrad which in her view Durrell scholarship should be following? Any comments from the scholars? Thanks. David Holdsworth _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070529/4d4b4d80/attachment.html From bskordil at otenet.gr Tue May 29 11:50:51 2007 From: bskordil at otenet.gr (Beatrice Skordili) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 21:50:51 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Presentism References: <00c301c7a1aa$a6a8a190$0100000a@DSC01><00cd01c7a1ed$1e0629f0$c6634a55@lacan> <20070529175945.VZFJ26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <015e01c7a222$48518bc0$c6634a55@lacan> No, Bill, no connection whatsoever! I am only talking about the ways in which a text interfaces with the interests that relate to our lived experience. I am not inventing connections. And I have no real quarrels with cultural materialists, but they might have some with me. B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "william godshalk" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 8:59 PM Subject: [ilds] Presentism Beatrice, I think in Shakespeare studies your position would be labeled "presentist." Terry Hawkes has a recent book on the subject. In the case of Hawkes, he wants to see Shakespeare from the perspective of recent politics. I'm not sure that we still read Shakespeare because of his political and social positions (whatever they might be). Cultural Materialists would not agree. Bill >Eagleton, DeMan, Said, Foucault (names >mentioned recently) are good or bad scholars as such, or even whether >(which >concerns two of them) they have said "bad" things about Durrell based on >cursory readings, or even plain reputation. These people found currency in >academic discussions because of the relevance of their work to the issues >that became prominent, both theoretical and political, at their time. The >scholars working on Joyce or Conrad (for instance) have managed to keep >them >current in the academy by demonstrating their relevance to these very >theoretical and political debates. *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue May 29 11:58:29 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 11:58:29 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Should he? Message-ID: <1526937.1180465110100.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Yes, as a matter of personal integrity. I don't believe in multiple standards and personalities. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: May 29, 2007 11:49 AM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: academic reviewers >Just to make sure that everyone understands, professional reviewers >are not academic reviewers. We academics may take months to read and >analyze the book we are reviewing, and then carefully write a >substantial essay that indeed has something to add to the book's >major thesis. We rarely get paid for our labors -- beyond keeping the >book that we've reviewed. > >If Eagleton writes as an academic, then he should follow our basic >procedures of honest reviewing. If he writes as a hack, then he >should not be held to academic standards -- should he? > >Bill >*************************************** >W. L. Godshalk * >Department of English * >University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >513-281-5927 >*************************************** > > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 29 11:58:20 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 14:58:20 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Presentism In-Reply-To: <015e01c7a222$48518bc0$c6634a55@lacan> References: <00c301c7a1aa$a6a8a190$0100000a@DSC01> <00cd01c7a1ed$1e0629f0$c6634a55@lacan> <20070529175945.VZFJ26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <015e01c7a222$48518bc0$c6634a55@lacan> Message-ID: <20070529185833.WMLN26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> >No, Bill, no connection whatsoever! I am only talking about the ways in >which a text interfaces with the interests that relate to our lived >experience. Okay, now I think I understand. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue May 29 12:30:57 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 12:30:57 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Dr. Durrell, Senior Lecturer, and a Parking Permit Message-ID: <25715875.1180467058338.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Ah, for lack of a parking permit . . . read below. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: "durrell at telstra.com" >Sent: May 29, 2007 5:49 AM >To: Bruce Redwine , Michael Haag >Subject: uni wollongong staff > >Durrell School of Corfu wrote: >> 'Dr' Anthony Durrell does claim to be an academic - he stated when he was >> self-abusing himself here that he taught at Wollongong Univ. But he is not >> listed among the staff there. >> I've already dealt with Eagleton at DSC. BTW, we don't call them >> 'conferences' - seminars is what we do. >> RP >> >I have just checked the uni of wollongong website and can concur that my >name has not been included in the teaching staff list.....thankyou for >uncovering this omission which is not the fault of the university but my >own for not collecting my staff id card and parking permit.....this is a >valuable reminder....many thanks....dr anthony durrell senior lecturer >medical faculty uow From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue May 29 12:57:52 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 12:57:52 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Time and Justine Message-ID: <19054353.1180468672826.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Way back on 5/25/07, aeons of discourse ago, Ed Hungerford wrote a query about time in Justine. He found some difficulties or inconsistencies in Durrell's time scheme. Despite the Quartet being about "space and time," I'm beginning to think Durrell was just being careless, not in the negligent sense, but literally he "cared not" about the Fourth Dimension. Which is really my sense of time in the Quartet. It's really quite timeless, strangely timeless, which is not the right word, maybe something closer to atemporality in the midst of a particular spot in time. Anyone else feel this way? Bruce From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Tue May 29 13:13:21 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 21:13:21 +0100 Subject: [ilds] academic reviewers In-Reply-To: <20070529184956.JRFB13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <0C3654E8-0E21-11DC-8C10-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> He should be held to the basic standard of integrity that a reader of book reviews expects. Otherwise it is just toilet paper. :Michael On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 07:49 pm, william godshalk wrote: > Just to make sure that everyone understands, professional reviewers > are not academic reviewers. We academics may take months to read and > analyze the book we are reviewing, and then carefully write a > substantial essay that indeed has something to add to the book's > major thesis. We rarely get paid for our labors -- beyond keeping the > book that we've reviewed. > > If Eagleton writes as an academic, then he should follow our basic > procedures of honest reviewing. If he writes as a hack, then he > should not be held to academic standards -- should he? > > Bill > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From slighcl at wfu.edu Tue May 29 13:55:25 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:55:25 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Should he? In-Reply-To: <1526937.1180465110100.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1526937.1180465110100.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <465C933D.7050000@wfu.edu> >-----Original Message----- > > >>From: william godshalk >> >>If Eagleton writes as an academic, then he should follow our basic >>procedures of honest reviewing. If he writes as a hack, then he >>should not be held to academic standards -- should he? >> >>On 5/29/2007 2:58 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >> >Yes, as a matter of personal integrity. I don't believe in multiple standards and personalities. > > An interesting question. The answer would need to be "yes" if we recognize the clout that Eagleton's name still carries in Anglo-American academic circles and the prestige that he enjoys now, in his second career, as someone who has grown tired of the theory game. *Shelving culture. The effect of Terry Eagleton on two generations of English students has been disastrous, argues Bryan Appleyard. * *But now the old Marxist appears to be mellowing* *http://www.newstatesman.com/200004170049* *Bryan Appleyard* *17 April 2000* *The Idea of Culture* *Terry Eagleton Blackwell, 156pp, ?12.99* *ISBN 0631219668* When Eagleton reviews a biography of Lawrence Durrell, what he says will matter and will influence because first and foremost he is Terry Eagleton. Anyone who has passed through graduate programs in the last two decades knows that Eagleton has shaped a great deal of the conversation in literary studies. A selective list from his bibliography could easily be taken as required academic reading:, whatever the specialization *Marxism and Literary Criticism* Methuen, 1976 *Literary Theory: An Introduction* (revised 1996) Blackwell, 1983 *The Significance of Theory* Blackwell, 1989 *The Ideology of the Aesthetic* Blackwell, 1990 There is little doubt that Eagleton's failure to engage with Durrell's biography and writings and the dismissals that he delivers have a wide-ranging influence. So I give three "yes" answers. * * * *Yes*, it mattered that Eagleton assumed wrongly that he could rely on the clout of his name and his wits and his anecdotes from his university days to carry him through the review of Ian MacNiven's biography. He failed in that assumption. (I think that I can admit that I do "hold a candle" not only for Durrell but for Ian, who has given me much in friendship and in an education about Durrell. "My friends and other prejudices.") * *Yes*, I think that given Eagleton's stature in literary culture the Durrell School did well to invite Eagleton to speak. An open, honest engagement with an avowedly suspicious critic can teach us much. * And *yes*, I think it is a damned shame that Eagleton doubled his dishonor by giving less than his best attention to the writings of Lawrence Durrell after having been invited to Corfu. An opportunity missed./ Caveat emptor/. Surely some people who heard Eagleton speak on Corfu and who conversed with him should speak up? Richard has indicated that the performance was a disappointment--was it a total wash, Richard? Where can we learn more? Does anyone else have testimony? Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** *Shelving culture. The effect of Terry Eagleton on two generations of English students has been disastrous, argues Bryan Appleyard. But now the old Marxist appears to be mellowing Bryan Appleyard Published 17 April 2000 The Idea of Culture Terry Eagleton Blackwell, 156pp, ?12.99 ISBN 0631219668 * Culture, concludes Terry Eagleton, has grown "immodest and overweening" and so "it is time, while acknowledging its significance, to put it back in its place". What! After 131 dense pages of Eagletonism - brilliance and posturing in equal measure - I had expected a little more than this. But no, Oxford's Thomas Wharton Professor of English Literature just wants to put culture back in its place and, er, that's it. I should have known better. I am just the sort of person Eagleton exists to infuriate. Years ago, I read his book Literary Theory. At first, I took it to be a joke, but later decided that it was an attempt to explain to certain people why they hated reading. The effect of that work - and numerous others - on English teaching has been disastrous. The sensuous and intellectual grasp of writing has been replaced by various drab sociologies, and two generations of English students have emerged from universities unable to read but superbly placed to become bad journalists. And here he is, at it again. At one low point in his new book, The Idea of Culture, Eagleton suddenly refers to "those churls on the English department corridor who study line endings in Milton". Leaving aside the oddity of this firebrand of the academic left using a word that means "peasant" as a term of abuse, what, actually, is wrong with studying Milton's line endings? Would Eagleton object to the technical study of Mozart's music or Titian's painting? We do these things to understand and preserve certain forms of excellence and, indirectly, to keep professors of English in useful employment. But Eagleton's gaze is always focused on the big picture; actual art seldom gets a look-in. Well, it does occasionally. This book has some good, though arguable, stuff on King Lear, and it has a quotation from Seamus Heaney taken from an interview. Heaney says that justice, freedom, beauty and love are coterminous with our artistic and literary culture and, heaven be praised, Eagleton agrees. But he goes on to criticise Heaney for not mentioning the wicked underside of European civilisation and for giving "the impression that moral culture stops at St Petersburg". This was an interview, for God's sake, and Heaney's quotation neither denied the significance of European evil nor gave that St Petersburg impression. But there's nothing like a straw man to break the ice at parties. OK, one more moan and then I'll say why Eagleton is, in fact, rather good. "The concept of culture", he writes, "thus gains in specificity what it loses in critical capacity, rather as the constructivist rocking chair is a more sociable art form that the high modernist artwork, but only at the cost of its critical edge." Whenever an academic uses phrases such as "rather as", "it seems to me" or "a form of", it means he is about to show off. In this case, there's no "rather as" about it. The whole sentence is superfluous - the point had already been made - so that rocking chair stuff is doubly superfluous, as well as being a laughable example of culture-babble. Entire passages in this book - notably the claustrophobic, inwardly spiralling "Culture Wars" chapter - are rendered pointless by such smug elaborations. And yet, and yet. Eagleton can be superb. His assault on American culture, for example, is apposite and economical. "If people of truly surreal fatness", he writes, "complacently patrol its streets, it is partly because they have no idea that this is not happening everywhere else." This is the most profound line I've ever read - and there have been many - on the subject of American fatness. It precisely captures the way America has conquered the world by, in effect, ignoring it; by universalising its own eccentric domesticity. Eagleton even bemoans the collapse of private speech in the new American demotic. "Like he was all 'uh-uh' and I was like kinda 'hey!' but he was like 'no way' or 'whatever'" is the rather fine example he offers. In fact, editing out the posturing, the book as a whole is an important meditation on where we are now. Eagleton's history of the word "culture" identifies three phases: culture as romanticism's anti-capitalist critique, as anthropological description of a whole way of life and, finally and most narrowly, as shorthand for the arts in general. In the context of postmodernism, this third phase has, in effect, blossomed into a fourth - as an inflated but empty and incoherent totality. It is this phase that inspires Eagleton's lame conclusion: we need "an enlightened political context" and less culture. On the way, he elegantly undermines the confusions of multiculturalism. "It is those who fetishise cultural differences who are the reactionaries here. It was by belonging to their own cultural history, not by putting it temporarily on ice, that those societies were able to go beyond it. I do not understand you by ceasing to be myself, since there would be nobody to do the understanding." Exactly. And he is astute about the real world implications of academic, pragmatic, "sassy and streetwise" postmodernism. "Such pragmatism leaves the west disarmed in the face of those fundamentalisms, both within and without, which are not too perturbed by other people's anti-metaphysical eagerness to scupper their own foundations." I couldn't put it better myself. (I have often put it rather worse.) Both the above arguments, you may notice, have a distinctively conservative flavour. In truth, there is nothing about this book that really needs Eagleton's socialism. This was not true of much of his earlier work, which was structurally dependent on an extreme leftist position. So the big question is: are we seeing the mellowing of Tel? I hope so, because his politics have long distracted his agile and impressive mind from a task whose urgency, if I read this book correctly, he is coming round to accepting. That task is the defence of English literature, not as an imperial power play, but as a key constitutive element of our humanity. Eagleton is never better than when he is assaulting the destructive fundamentalisms - biological or cultural - of our time. And he could do nothing more valuable than demonstrating that the balance and complexity of art embody the possibility, if not the actuality, of our liberation from those dangerous illusions. Bryan Appleyard's most recent book is Brave New Worlds: genetics and the human experience (HarperCollins, ?8.99) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070529/a0cc4768/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 29 13:56:30 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:56:30 -0400 Subject: [ilds] academic reviewers In-Reply-To: <0C3654E8-0E21-11DC-8C10-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <20070529184956.JRFB13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <0C3654E8-0E21-11DC-8C10-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070529205704.KTJF13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> I meant that he's a "hack." At 04:13 PM 5/29/2007, you wrote: >He should be held to the basic standard of integrity that a reader of >book reviews expects. Otherwise it is just toilet paper. > >:Michael > > > > >On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 07:49 pm, william godshalk wrote: > > > Just to make sure that everyone understands, professional reviewers > > are not academic reviewers. We academics may take months to read and > > analyze the book we are reviewing, and then carefully write a > > substantial essay that indeed has something to add to the book's > > major thesis. We rarely get paid for our labors -- beyond keeping the > > book that we've reviewed. > > > > If Eagleton writes as an academic, then he should follow our basic > > procedures of honest reviewing. If he writes as a hack, then he > > should not be held to academic standards -- should he? > > > > Bill > > *************************************** > > W. L. Godshalk * > > Department of English * > > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > > 513-281-5927 > > *************************************** > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ILDS mailing list > > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From slighcl at wfu.edu Tue May 29 14:14:05 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:14:05 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Time and Justine In-Reply-To: <19054353.1180468672826.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <19054353.1180468672826.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <465C979D.5060009@wfu.edu> On 5/29/2007 3:57 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >Way back on 5/25/07, aeons of discourse ago, Ed Hungerford wrote a query about time in Justine. He found some difficulties or inconsistencies in Durrell's time scheme. Despite the Quartet being about "space and time," I'm beginning to think Durrell was just being careless, not in the negligent sense, but literally he "cared not" about the Fourth Dimension. Which is really my sense of time in the Quartet. It's really quite timeless, strangely timeless, which is not the right word, maybe something closer to atemporality in the midst of a particular spot in time. Anyone else feel this way? > I will agree that in the sense that at this later stage in my reading of /Justine /I tend to allow it all to be pretty impressionistic, to enjoy the novel as a tidelike wash of flux and reflux. I used to go in for sleuthing and mapping out the intricacies of narrative and time. That attracts me less these days. So when Justine and Darley pause at the Summer Palace in order to discuss Pursewarden's suicide as if we all already understood what had happened, I note the momentary trembling of my curiosity and unknowing but then go right back to the immediate moment. (The art of pretence: as if I had not been right there before.) Some of that preference comes from a surfeit of -ims--whether modernism, postmodernism, or what have you. I simply could not hear and enjoy /Justine /anymore. Some of that preference is an aesthetic sensibility shaped by my preference for poetry over narrative fiction. When I read for my own pleasure, I do not require that /Justine /has anything more than music for me. Sometimes I discover that a sound and shape washes up some surprising notion, carried into the text from Durrell's readings in history or philosophy or letters. If I pick up some line or phrase that catches my fancy in that way, a little piece of drift carried to me out from the "real world," I know that I can turn to a number of scholars, historians, and biographers who can help me understand as need be. There is much good work there, and I am pleased to know some of those workers. I know that you and others will recognize the following passage, Bruce, but what I am talking about in regard to how I read /Justine /today in 2007 (versus 1997 or 1987) stems from my interest in Durrell's Aesthetic, his (early) characteristic style and sensibility of words, and my attempt to forget a great deal of clutter that I have gone through. Does anyone else recall Durrell's best chapter opening? > > The sea's curious workmanship: bottle-green glass sucked > smooth and porous by the waves: vitreous shells: wood stripped > and cleaned, and bark swollen with salt: a bead: sea-charcoal, > brittle and sticky: fronds of bladder-wart with their greasy > marine skin and reptilian feel: rocks, gnawed and rubbed: > sponges, heavy with tears: amber: bone: the sea. > > ("Ionian Profiles," /Prospero's Cell/) > Again, that is what I value as pattern and craft and sensibility when I read /Justine /and /Prospero's Cell &c. /for pleasure in 2007. It is in a sense an extension of my current concentration on tracking and editing Durrell's composition process for the /Quartet /in notebook, typescript, and print. It is at present somewhat willfully myopic--my other teaching and writing centers on Victorian Poetry, not modernist texts--and it in no way precludes the other approaches to reading and discussing Durrell. For example, I am most interested at all times in what Jamie and Beatrice and Michael teach me when we meet and talk. None of them pursues Durrell in quite the same way. I think what I value is ardency and focus and whatever opens up the conversation, rather than closes it. I would be interested to hear how other readers of Durrell have found their reading experiences to change over time. My twenty-years is not so very long compared to most of you. Bruce has spoken of reading Durrell in a 1958 moment. Who else? Ed? Brewster? Ilyas? Anna? What is it all about for you now? Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070529/71843c09/attachment.html From ilyas.khan at crosby.com Tue May 29 15:24:09 2007 From: ilyas.khan at crosby.com (Ilyas Khan) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 06:24:09 +0800 Subject: [ilds] Should he? In-Reply-To: <465C933D.7050000@wfu.edu> Message-ID: I offer some support for my fellow lancastrian. Not, I hasten add, for his ?review?, but for his status and the likelihood that on this occasion he slipped. Eagleton has been around for a very long time ? and read and appreciated for most of that time. I have no idea what befell him to write the twaddle that was published as the review. Its clear that the man has a view on Durrell, and we must assume (I at least assume) that his opinion is based broadly on a reading or readings over a period of time that lack nothing in depth and perspective. The problem with the review is that it appears to have been written on the basis of a historic prejudice, but without actually doing the hard yards that are necessary. I?ve enjoyed Eagleton?s buccaneering style for the most part. This slip was grievous given my predilection for LD, but I think we should accept this as a human failing that was very unfortunate for the reasons that Charles articulates so well. On 5/30/07 4:55 AM, "slighcl" wrote: > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >>> >>> From: william godshalk >>> >>> >> >>> >>> If Eagleton writes as an academic, then he should follow our basic >>> procedures of honest reviewing. If he writes as a hack, then he >>> should not be held to academic standards -- should he? >>> > >> >>> >>> On 5/29/2007 2:58 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >>> >> >> Yes, as a matter of personal integrity. I don't believe in multiple >> standards and personalities. >> > An interesting question. The answer would need to be "yes" if we recognize > the clout that Eagleton's name still carries in Anglo-American academic > circles and the prestige that he enjoys now, in his second career, as someone > who has grown tired of the theory game. >> >>> Shelving culture. The effect of Terry Eagleton on two generations of English >>> students has been disastrous, argues Bryan Appleyard. >>> But now the old Marxist appears to be mellowing >>> http://www.newstatesman.com/200004170049 >>> Bryan Appleyard >>> >>> 17 April 2000 >>> >>> The Idea of Culture >>> Terry Eagleton Blackwell, 156pp, ?12.99 >>> ISBN 0631219668 >>> > When Eagleton reviews a biography of Lawrence Durrell, what he says will > matter and will influence because first and foremost he is Terry Eagleton. > Anyone who has passed through graduate programs in the last two decades knows > that Eagleton has shaped a great deal of the conversation in literary studies. > A selective list from his bibliography could easily be taken as required > academic reading:, whatever the specialization >> >>> Marxism and Literary Criticism Methuen, 1976 >>> Literary Theory: An Introduction (revised 1996) Blackwell, 1983 >>> The Significance of Theory Blackwell, 1989 >>> The Ideology of the Aesthetic Blackwell, 1990 >>> > There is little doubt that Eagleton's failure to engage with Durrell's > biography and writings and the dismissals that he delivers have a wide-ranging > influence. > > So I give three "yes" answers. > * Yes, it mattered that Eagleton assumed wrongly that he could rely on the > clout of his name and his wits and his anecdotes from his university days to > carry him through the review of Ian MacNiven's biography. He failed in that > assumption. (I think that I can admit that I do "hold a candle" not only for > Durrell but for Ian, who has given me much in friendship and in an education > about Durrell. "My friends and other prejudices.") > * Yes, I think that given Eagleton's stature in literary culture the Durrell > School did well to invite Eagleton to speak. An open, honest engagement with > an avowedly suspicious critic can teach us much. > * > * And yes, I think it is a damned shame that Eagleton doubled his dishonor by > giving less than his best attention to the writings of Lawrence Durrell after > having been invited to Corfu. An opportunity missed. Caveat emptor. > Surely some people who heard Eagleton speak on Corfu and who conversed with > him should speak up? Richard has indicated that the performance was a > disappointment--was it a total wash, Richard? Where can we learn more? Does > anyone else have testimony? > > Charles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/8e1fdda9/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 29 16:07:14 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 19:07:14 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Should he? In-Reply-To: References: <465C933D.7050000@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070529230707.YEFN26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> The novelist T. C. Boyle says that he never reads genre literature. He never reads it, he says, because all genre literature is BAD. In fact, he says this often in interviews. How would Boyle know about genre literature if he never read it? It seems to me that Eagleton may be like Boyle. He's never read Durrell, but he already knows that Durrell is BAD. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue May 29 16:10:01 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 19:10:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] Time and Justine Message-ID: <3256587.1180480202195.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hard questions, Michael. I'll tell you what I sense, not what I can prove. Atemporality, not in the dictionary and not in this world we normally live in -- that state, for Durrell, lies just beyond the membrane of everyday experience. He talks about distant Tibet and crossing the Himalayas to get there, but all that is just metaphor, a way to make it understandable. Jesus likes to talk in parables -- the same method. The place is actually quite close. It's the Kingdom of Heaven kind of thing. Dr. Anthony Durrell has his own description of it, not the words I would choose, but I can't improve on them. Something like that. I think LD thought he could occasionally reach it through poetry, much like Keats on his "wings of Poesy" strives to get there -- and does. (Here, I thank Ray Morrison for his explanation of "Deus Loci" at the last conference in Victoria -- the experience of that poem is something what I have in mind.) Why was it important to LD? He couldn't help himself. That was his nature, that was his calling. I think Durrell was a very religious guy, in his own way. He failed, though. He wasn't able to sustain what he was after. But if that's failure, then failure ain't so bad. Why is it important to us? That I can't explain. It simply is. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Haag >Sent: May 29, 2007 3:01 PM >To: "durrell at telstra.com" >Cc: Bruce Redwine >Subject: Re: [ilds] Time and Justine > >Do you think Durrell sees atemporality, or getting into atemporality, >as a mode, a way of doing things; or does he see atemporality as a >reality which is really there, waiting for us, and which we can enter? >And why do you think he -- or why would anyone -- be interested in >atemporality? Why would it be important for Durrell? > >:Michael > > >On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 10:47 pm, durrell at telstra.com wrote: > >> Atemporality....what a powerful word and an interesting concept that >> when sincerely pondered seems to strangely suspend ones mental tick >> tock for a fleeting moment.....perhaps a clue lies here in deciphering >> the AQ....without time our comfortable cerebral continuum flounders >> which for all but a few precipitates an overwhelming existential >> panic.... alas if one only could relax into this state of atemporality >> the disorientation soon passes.... if one has sufficient faith to >> stave of the habitual desire to return to the familiarity of >> temporality then time is no longer the master but the slave of >> man!...this is where LD seeks to take us....to a quaternary sphere >> beyond the confines of space and time to a vast timelessness....a >> satori of the soul!.....AD >> > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 29 16:10:33 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 19:10:33 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Time and Justine In-Reply-To: <465C979D.5060009@wfu.edu> References: <19054353.1180468672826.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <465C979D.5060009@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070529231026.YUOU9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Durrell's writing is like sex. Your appreciation of it changes over the years. Now I look back with nostalgia. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Tue May 29 16:17:02 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 00:17:02 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Should he? In-Reply-To: <20070529230707.YEFN26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: I have a suspicion that Bill might be right about this. It is suggested by Eagleton himself in the opening lines of his idiotic 'review': My old Cambridge tutor, a deeply traditionalist scholar, used to have a copy of Lawrence Durrell's novel Justine lying with casual deliberateness on his desk. The book looked suspiciously unthumbed. It was there as testimony to his (entirely spurious) avantgardeness, for in the early 1960s Durrell was one of the last words in high-brow literary experiment. Eagleton is telling us how clever and how revolutionary he, Eagleton, is. Old farts put Justine on their desks pretending to have read them. But not Eagleton. He REALLY has not read it. Avant-avant-garde! Where else has a brain dead Marxist to go than up his own clever arse? :Michael On Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 12:07 am, william godshalk wrote: > The novelist T. C. Boyle says that he never reads genre literature. > He never reads it, he says, because all genre literature is BAD. In > fact, he says this often in interviews. > > How would Boyle know about genre literature if he never read it? > > It seems to me that Eagleton may be like Boyle. He's never read > Durrell, but he already knows that Durrell is BAD. > > Bill > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1687 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/cbac62b3/attachment.bin From slighcl at wfu.edu Tue May 29 16:48:53 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 19:48:53 -0400 Subject: [ilds] satori? In-Reply-To: <3256587.1180480202195.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <3256587.1180480202195.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <465CBBE5.7090509@wfu.edu> Bruce smuggles through another bit of forbidden faerie fruit (apologies Hope Mirrlees): >>>a >>>satori of the soul!.....AD >>> >>> >>> Would somebody please be helpful and tell me how the notion of /satori /came into currency with Durrell and his contemporaries? I first encountered through Durrell and Cort?zar, who seem to start to mention at about the same 1960s moment. Thus in 1963 in /Rayuela /(part 61): > Final melanc?lico: Un satori es instant?neo y todo lo resuelve. Pero > para llegar > a ?l habr?a que desandar la historia de fuera y la de dentro. Trop > tard pour moi. > Crever en italien, voire en occidental, c'est tout ce qui me reste. > Mon petit caf? > cr?me le matin, si agr?able... And Durrell in an interview or two also mentions the concept. So who was popularizing the idea? Whence the trend? Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070529/901dc677/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 29 17:12:07 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 20:12:07 -0400 Subject: [ilds] teachings of mo Message-ID: <20070530001210.YLOZ26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070529/31500094/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue May 29 17:23:13 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:23:13 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] satori? Message-ID: <16217414.1180484593624.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Durrell mentions D. T. Suzuki, one of the popularizers of Zen Buddhism for an American audience, in note 4 of A Smile in the Mind's Eyes, and Miller talks about it in a 1939 letter. Durrell himself talks about Herrigel's famous Zen in the Art of Archery in a letter to Miller in 1957. That year is the time of the Beats in San Francisco, who spread the word about Zen through the literature of Kerouac and Snyder, et al. Zen and Satori were very much in the air in the 1950s. Durrell's fancy, however, is for Taoism, which is not the same as Zen but similar. I will not attempt to define either of them. Both "systems" oppose verbalization, which is maybe why Durrell likes to rest his case in Justine on "silence." Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: slighcl >Sent: May 29, 2007 4:48 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] satori? > >Bruce smuggles through another bit of forbidden faerie fruit (apologies >Hope Mirrlees): > >>>>a >>>>satori of the soul!.....AD >>>> >>>> >>>> >Would somebody please be helpful and tell me how the notion of /satori >/came into currency with Durrell and his contemporaries? > >I first encountered through Durrell and Cort?zar, who seem to start to >mention at about the same 1960s moment. Thus in 1963 in /Rayuela /(part 61): > >> Final melanc?lico: Un satori es instant?neo y todo lo resuelve. Pero >> para llegar >> a ?l habr?a que desandar la historia de fuera y la de dentro. Trop >> tard pour moi. >> Crever en italien, voire en occidental, c'est tout ce qui me reste. >> Mon petit caf? >> cr?me le matin, si agr?able... > >And Durrell in an interview or two also mentions the concept. So who >was popularizing the idea? Whence the trend? > >Charles > >-- >********************** >Charles L. Sligh >Department of English >Wake Forest University >slighcl at wfu.edu >********************** > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 29 17:37:47 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 20:37:47 -0400 Subject: [ilds] satori? In-Reply-To: <16217414.1180484593624.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.s a.earthlink.net> References: <16217414.1180484593624.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070530003750.LUSF13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070529/3fdaed1d/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 29 17:51:10 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 20:51:10 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- Justine horseback riding -- Message-ID: <20070530005122.LWKM13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070529/cc0f5f9e/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 29 18:00:30 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 21:00:30 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Chinese fox-women Message-ID: <20070530010053.LXOP13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070529/41eea7e8/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 29 18:33:25 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 21:33:25 -0400 Subject: [ilds] L shaped Message-ID: <20070530013348.ZOPC9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> In 3.1 (p. 163), Justine's Summer Palace is an "L-shaped block of buildings." I immediately thought of Conrad's famous L-shaped room. But the connection is tenuous or perhaps nonexistent. In any case, would an L-shaped compound be efficient in the desert? I would go for an inner courtyard surrounding the water supply with the buildings built around as shelter. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From durrells at otenet.gr Tue May 29 22:35:52 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 08:35:52 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Should he? References: <1526937.1180465110100.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <465C933D.7050000@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <006601c7a27c$63317ae0$0100000a@DSC01> It was a disappointment in the sense that it was a lecture I have heard him give previously, rather than tailored to the DSC event. And secondly, he did not show much interest in 'interfacing' with the students, which others that week - notably Spivak, who was desperately trying to finish her - as yet to appear - book Other Asias, did most generously. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: slighcl To: Bruce Redwine ; ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] Should he? -----Original Message----- From: william godshalk If Eagleton writes as an academic, then he should follow our basic procedures of honest reviewing. If he writes as a hack, then he should not be held to academic standards -- should he? On 5/29/2007 2:58 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote:Yes, as a matter of personal integrity. I don't believe in multiple standards and personalities. An interesting question. The answer would need to be "yes" if we recognize the clout that Eagleton's name still carries in Anglo-American academic circles and the prestige that he enjoys now, in his second career, as someone who has grown tired of the theory game. Shelving culture. The effect of Terry Eagleton on two generations of English students has been disastrous, argues Bryan Appleyard. But now the old Marxist appears to be mellowing http://www.newstatesman.com/200004170049 Bryan Appleyard 17 April 2000 The Idea of Culture Terry Eagleton Blackwell, 156pp, ?12.99 ISBN 0631219668 When Eagleton reviews a biography of Lawrence Durrell, what he says will matter and will influence because first and foremost he is Terry Eagleton. Anyone who has passed through graduate programs in the last two decades knows that Eagleton has shaped a great deal of the conversation in literary studies. A selective list from his bibliography could easily be taken as required academic reading:, whatever the specialization Marxism and Literary Criticism Methuen, 1976 Literary Theory: An Introduction (revised 1996) Blackwell, 1983 The Significance of Theory Blackwell, 1989 The Ideology of the Aesthetic Blackwell, 1990 There is little doubt that Eagleton's failure to engage with Durrell's biography and writings and the dismissals that he delivers have a wide-ranging influence. So I give three "yes" answers. a.. Yes, it mattered that Eagleton assumed wrongly that he could rely on the clout of his name and his wits and his anecdotes from his university days to carry him through the review of Ian MacNiven's biography. He failed in that assumption. (I think that I can admit that I do "hold a candle" not only for Durrell but for Ian, who has given me much in friendship and in an education about Durrell. "My friends and other prejudices.") b.. Yes, I think that given Eagleton's stature in literary culture the Durrell School did well to invite Eagleton to speak. An open, honest engagement with an avowedly suspicious critic can teach us much. c.. And yes, I think it is a damned shame that Eagleton doubled his dishonor by giving less than his best attention to the writings of Lawrence Durrell after having been invited to Corfu. An opportunity missed. Caveat emptor. Surely some people who heard Eagleton speak on Corfu and who conversed with him should speak up? Richard has indicated that the performance was a disappointment--was it a total wash, Richard? Where can we learn more? Does anyone else have testimony? Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** Shelving culture. The effect of Terry Eagleton on two generations of English students has been disastrous, argues Bryan Appleyard. But now the old Marxist appears to be mellowing Bryan Appleyard Published 17 April 2000 The Idea of Culture Terry Eagleton Blackwell, 156pp, ?12.99 ISBN 0631219668 Culture, concludes Terry Eagleton, has grown "immodest and overweening" and so "it is time, while acknowledging its significance, to put it back in its place". What! After 131 dense pages of Eagletonism - brilliance and posturing in equal measure - I had expected a little more than this. But no, Oxford's Thomas Wharton Professor of English Literature just wants to put culture back in its place and, er, that's it. I should have known better. I am just the sort of person Eagleton exists to infuriate. Years ago, I read his book Literary Theory. At first, I took it to be a joke, but later decided that it was an attempt to explain to certain people why they hated reading. The effect of that work - and numerous others - on English teaching has been disastrous. The sensuous and intellectual grasp of writing has been replaced by various drab sociologies, and two generations of English students have emerged from universities unable to read but superbly placed to become bad journalists. And here he is, at it again. At one low point in his new book, The Idea of Culture, Eagleton suddenly refers to "those churls on the English department corridor who study line endings in Milton". Leaving aside the oddity of this firebrand of the academic left using a word that means "peasant" as a term of abuse, what, actually, is wrong with studying Milton's line endings? Would Eagleton object to the technical study of Mozart's music or Titian's painting? We do these things to understand and preserve certain forms of excellence and, indirectly, to keep professors of English in useful employment. But Eagleton's gaze is always focused on the big picture; actual art seldom gets a look-in. Well, it does occasionally. This book has some good, though arguable, stuff on King Lear, and it has a quotation from Seamus Heaney taken from an interview. Heaney says that justice, freedom, beauty and love are coterminous with our artistic and literary culture and, heaven be praised, Eagleton agrees. But he goes on to criticise Heaney for not mentioning the wicked underside of European civilisation and for giving "the impression that moral culture stops at St Petersburg". This was an interview, for God's sake, and Heaney's quotation neither denied the significance of European evil nor gave that St Petersburg impression. But there's nothing like a straw man to break the ice at parties. OK, one more moan and then I'll say why Eagleton is, in fact, rather good. "The concept of culture", he writes, "thus gains in specificity what it loses in critical capacity, rather as the constructivist rocking chair is a more sociable art form that the high modernist artwork, but only at the cost of its critical edge." Whenever an academic uses phrases such as "rather as", "it seems to me" or "a form of", it means he is about to show off. In this case, there's no "rather as" about it. The whole sentence is superfluous - the point had already been made - so that rocking chair stuff is doubly superfluous, as well as being a laughable example of culture-babble. Entire passages in this book - notably the claustrophobic, inwardly spiralling "Culture Wars" chapter - are rendered pointless by such smug elaborations. And yet, and yet. Eagleton can be superb. His assault on American culture, for example, is apposite and economical. "If people of truly surreal fatness", he writes, "complacently patrol its streets, it is partly because they have no idea that this is not happening everywhere else." This is the most profound line I've ever read - and there have been many - on the subject of American fatness. It precisely captures the way America has conquered the world by, in effect, ignoring it; by universalising its own eccentric domesticity. Eagleton even bemoans the collapse of private speech in the new American demotic. "Like he was all 'uh-uh' and I was like kinda 'hey!' but he was like 'no way' or 'whatever'" is the rather fine example he offers. In fact, editing out the posturing, the book as a whole is an important meditation on where we are now. Eagleton's history of the word "culture" identifies three phases: culture as romanticism's anti-capitalist critique, as anthropological description of a whole way of life and, finally and most narrowly, as shorthand for the arts in general. In the context of postmodernism, this third phase has, in effect, blossomed into a fourth - as an inflated but empty and incoherent totality. It is this phase that inspires Eagleton's lame conclusion: we need "an enlightened political context" and less culture. On the way, he elegantly undermines the confusions of multiculturalism. "It is those who fetishise cultural differences who are the reactionaries here. It was by belonging to their own cultural history, not by putting it temporarily on ice, that those societies were able to go beyond it. I do not understand you by ceasing to be myself, since there would be nobody to do the understanding." Exactly. And he is astute about the real world implications of academic, pragmatic, "sassy and streetwise" postmodernism. "Such pragmatism leaves the west disarmed in the face of those fundamentalisms, both within and without, which are not too perturbed by other people's anti-metaphysical eagerness to scupper their own foundations." I couldn't put it better myself. (I have often put it rather worse.) Both the above arguments, you may notice, have a distinctively conservative flavour. In truth, there is nothing about this book that really needs Eagleton's socialism. This was not true of much of his earlier work, which was structurally dependent on an extreme leftist position. So the big question is: are we seeing the mellowing of Tel? I hope so, because his politics have long distracted his agile and impressive mind from a task whose urgency, if I read this book correctly, he is coming round to accepting. That task is the defence of English literature, not as an imperial power play, but as a key constitutive element of our humanity. Eagleton is never better than when he is assaulting the destructive fundamentalisms - biological or cultural - of our time. And he could do nothing more valuable than demonstrating that the balance and complexity of art embody the possibility, if not the actuality, of our liberation from those dangerous illusions. Bryan Appleyard's most recent book is Brave New Worlds: genetics and the human experience (HarperCollins, ?8.99) __________ NOD32 2296 (20070529) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2296 (20070529) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/4a1f47f6/attachment.html From durrells at otenet.gr Tue May 29 22:39:00 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 08:39:00 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Should he? References: <465C933D.7050000@wfu.edu> <20070529230707.YEFN26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <007701c7a27c$d3616b90$0100000a@DSC01> Sorry for asking, but what is 'genre literature'? Is literature a genre? RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "william godshalk" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 2:07 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] Should he? > The novelist T. C. Boyle says that he never reads genre literature. > He never reads it, he says, because all genre literature is BAD. In > fact, he says this often in interviews. > > How would Boyle know about genre literature if he never read it? > > It seems to me that Eagleton may be like Boyle. He's never read > Durrell, but he already knows that Durrell is BAD. > > Bill > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2296 (20070529) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From dtart at bigpond.net.au Wed May 30 00:43:34 2007 From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:43:34 +1000 Subject: [ilds] AUSSIE ETHER: DURRELL AND THE EMPIRE Message-ID: <00d801c7a28e$3a663120$0202a8c0@MumandDad> RP wrote recently of the Aussie ether. What he was refering to I have no notion of except that recent emails have mentioned Durrell's love hate relationship with with the mother country (not cuntry - as one of my students recently spelt it, though perhaps this is apt) which we in Australia, as a member of the British Commonwealth and as a former colony, feel very strongly. Like Durrell many of us born in the empire outside Britain to middle class parents were brought up to respect and imitate the values and conduct of the English Gentleman and yet, upon aquaintance with that country, even given our education, intellect and conduct we were (are) regarded as inferior and indeed condescended to. Durrell never felt accepted in England even though his accent was impeccably posh. His experience of pudding island I believe resonates with many 'colonials' possibly even with Americans although you guys fought off the British (with French help) and have become an empire yourselves leading to a huge sense of cultural importance. When I read Durrell I very much feel his sense of colonial misplacement. Successful Aussie writers go to London or increasingly to New York. Durrell stayed in the Mediterranean, moved around a lot, took comfort in the bottle and probably never felt truly at home in any country. Denise Tart & David Green 16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au Denise Tart & David Green 16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/e4bf6958/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Wed May 30 04:32:46 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 12:32:46 +0100 Subject: [ilds] AUSSIE ETHER: DURRELL AND THE EMPIRE In-Reply-To: <00d801c7a28e$3a663120$0202a8c0@MumandDad> Message-ID: <7D1F0E49-0EA1-11DC-8979-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> And yet there have been very many Britons born in India who have never felt that, among them Durrell's mother, father, sister and two brothers. :Michael On Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 08:43 am, Denise Tart & David Green wrote: > RP wrote recently of the Aussie ether. What he was refering to I have > no notion of except that recent emails have mentioned Durrell's love > hate relationship with with the mother country (not cuntry - as one of > my students recently spelt it, though perhaps?this is apt) which we in > Australia, as a member of the British Commonwealth and as a former > colony, feel very strongly. Like Durrell many of us born in the empire > outside Britain to middle class parents were brought up to respect?and > imitate the values and conduct of the English Gentleman and yet, upon > aquaintance with that country, even given?our education, intellect and > conduct we were (are)?regarded as inferior and indeed condescended to. > Durrell never felt accepted in England even though his accent was > impeccably posh.?His experience of pudding island?I believe resonates > with many 'colonials' possibly even with Americans although?you guys > fought off the British (with French help) and have become an empire > yourselves leading to a huge sense of cultural importance. When?I read > Durrell?I very much feel his?sense of colonial misplacement. > Successful Aussie writers go to London or increasingly to New York. > Durrell stayed in the Mediterranean, moved around a lot, took comfort > in the bottle?and probably never felt truly at home in any country. > ? > ? > Denise Tart & David Green > 16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 > ? > +61 2 9564 6165 > 0412 707 625 > dtart at bigpond.net.au > Denise Tart & David Green > 16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 > ? > +61 2 9564 6165 > 0412 707 625 > dtart at bigpond.net.au > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2285 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/791a8d24/attachment.bin From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Wed May 30 04:15:56 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 12:15:56 +0100 Subject: [ilds] L shaped In-Reply-To: <20070530013348.ZOPC9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <22E8A739-0E9F-11DC-8C5A-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Justine's Summer Palace at Burg el Arab is a real place -- or rather Burg el Arab is a real place which has given its name to the several houses built there in the 1920s and 1930s. Burg el Arab means Tower of the Arabs and refers to a tower built probably in the Roman period (though some have argued Ptolemaic) in the form of the Pharos but one-tenth its size. It has been thought to have been a lighthouse, like the Pharos in Alexandria, but there is also opinion that it was built as a very large funerary monument. The tower stands on a limestone ridge running along the coast west of Alexandria. Durrell went swimming near here with Eve and friends in 1944, a moment he describes in a letter to Miller in May that year. The photograph below shows the ancient tower. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ancient Burg el Arab (colour).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 244999 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/ccc54a1d/attachment-0003.jpg -------------- next part -------------- Inland from this ridge is a further limestone ridge on which Wilfred Jennings Bramly built his home in the 1920s. Bramly had been in charge of the Western Desert Frontier Administration until 1922. This was the 'crusader fort' Durrell described in his letter -- not crusader and not abandoned either; Bramly lived there until 1956. The house as it looks today is shown below; it has been taken over by the Egyptian state and serves as presidential rest house (hence the telecommunications tower); from here Anwar Sadat secretly prepared for the 1973 war against Israel. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Bramly house.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45728 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/ccc54a1d/attachment-0004.jpg -------------- next part -------------- Just beyond this second ridge lay a settlement, built by Bramly and in his friends in the 1930s, in the form of houses arranged in a circle like a miniature walled Tuscan town. The place was given the name Burg el Arab. To my knowledge Durrell never came here, but his friend Robin Fedden knew it well; he was often a guest at Dar el Qadi, the house at Burg built by Jasper Brinton, the American who was president of the Court of Appeal of the Mixed Courts, and so Durrell would have had an account of this new Burg el Arab from Fedden. The photograph below shows Dar el Qadi in about 1937 after building works were completed; in the foreground is a Bedouin tent. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Dar el Qadi with bedouin tent.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 334782 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/ccc54a1d/attachment-0005.jpg -------------- next part -------------- I have stayed in the house above, but I do not recall an L-shaped room, but I do not see why it should not have had one. I have somewhere a detailed description of Bramly's own house; possibly it mentions such a room. Then again the L-shaped room may have some subtle cosmic meaning or literary association known to Durrell. :Michael On Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 02:33 am, william godshalk wrote: > In 3.1 (p. 163), Justine's Summer Palace is an "L-shaped block of > buildings." I immediately thought of Conrad's famous L-shaped room. > But the connection is tenuous or perhaps nonexistent. In any case, > would an L-shaped compound be efficient in the desert? I would go for > an inner courtyard surrounding the water supply with the buildings > built around as shelter. > > Bill From durrells at otenet.gr Wed May 30 04:53:02 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 14:53:02 +0300 Subject: [ilds] AUSSIE ETHER: DURRELL AND THE EMPIRE References: <00d801c7a28e$3a663120$0202a8c0@MumandDad> Message-ID: <013901c7a2b1$13cc84b0$0100000a@DSC01> I agree with the below, but it wasn't me (RP) who wrote of the 'Aussie ether' - the only 'Aussie' I wrote about was the awful Anthiony Durrell. ----- Original Message ----- From: Denise Tart & David Green To: Durrel Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 10:43 AM Subject: [ilds] AUSSIE ETHER: DURRELL AND THE EMPIRE RP wrote recently of the Aussie ether. What he was refering to I have no notion of except that recent emails have mentioned Durrell's love hate relationship with with the mother country (not cuntry - as one of my students recently spelt it, though perhaps this is apt) which we in Australia, as a member of the British Commonwealth and as a former colony, feel very strongly. Like Durrell many of us born in the empire outside Britain to middle class parents were brought up to respect and imitate the values and conduct of the English Gentleman and yet, upon aquaintance with that country, even given our education, intellect and conduct we were (are) regarded as inferior and indeed condescended to. Durrell never felt accepted in England even though his accent was impeccably posh. His experience of pudding island I believe resonates with many 'colonials' possibly even with Americans although you guys fought off the British (with French help) and have become an empire yourselves leading to a huge sense of cultural importance. When I read Durrell I very much feel his sense of colonial misplacement. Successful Aussie writers go to London or increasingly to New York. Durrell stayed in the Mediterranean, moved around a lot, took comfort in the bottle and probably never felt truly at home in any country. Denise Tart & David Green 16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au Denise Tart & David Green 16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au __________ NOD32 2297 (20070530) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2297 (20070530) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/a2e70a10/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 30 07:01:14 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 07:01:14 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] AUSSIE ETHER Message-ID: <17084077.1180533675242.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I referred to the "Aussie ether" in an email sometime back, and my reference was to a person, not a country. It was a spiritual reference. The context was that of a disembodied voice, which spoke oracularly and was not in the habit of identifying itself. I agree with your characterization of Australians, whose relationship with the "mother country" is very different from that of we Americans (and perhaps Canadians too, but I can't speak for them). I don't think, however, that Durrell's problem of displacement and alienation had much to do with his colonial past. That too was a spiritual problem, in my opinion. So, like you, I too wonder if he would have ever been happy anywhere. On the other hand, the south of France seems like the best place to be, no matter what one's disposition. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Denise Tart & David Green >Sent: May 30, 2007 12:43 AM >To: Durrel >Subject: [ilds] AUSSIE ETHER: DURRELL AND THE EMPIRE > >RP wrote recently of the Aussie ether. What he was refering to I have no notion of except that recent emails have mentioned Durrell's love hate relationship with with the mother country (not cuntry - as one of my students recently spelt it, though perhaps this is apt) which we in Australia, as a member of the British Commonwealth and as a former colony, feel very strongly. Like Durrell many of us born in the empire outside Britain to middle class parents were brought up to respect and imitate the values and conduct of the English Gentleman and yet, upon aquaintance with that country, even given our education, intellect and conduct we were (are) regarded as inferior and indeed condescended to. Durrell never felt accepted in England even though his accent was impeccably posh. His experience of pudding island I believe resonates with many 'colonials' possibly even with Americans although you guys fought off the British (with French help) and have become an empire yourselves leading to a huge sense of cultural importance. When I read Durrell I very much feel his sense of colonial misplacement. Successful Aussie writers go to London or increasingly to New York. Durrell stayed in the Mediterranean, moved around a lot, took comfort in the bottle and probably never felt truly at home in any country. > > >Denise Tart & David Green >16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 30 07:11:02 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 07:11:02 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] L shaped Message-ID: <28537459.1180534262943.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Bill, the only "L-Shaped Room" I can think of is the Leslie Caron film of 1962 -- not what you have in mind, I'm sure. Which famous Conrad story are you referring to? I too think of houses in the desert as being built like small fortifications, caravansary-type structures. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: May 29, 2007 6:33 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] L shaped > >In 3.1 (p. 163), Justine's Summer Palace is an "L-shaped block of >buildings." I immediately thought of Conrad's famous L-shaped room. >But the connection is tenuous or perhaps nonexistent. In any case, >would an L-shaped compound be efficient in the desert? I would go for >an inner courtyard surrounding the water supply with the buildings >built around as shelter. > >Bill >*************************************** >W. L. Godshalk * >Department of English * >University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >513-281-5927 >*************************************** > > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Wed May 30 08:29:18 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 09:29:18 -0600 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear In-Reply-To: <465B6710.2020902@wfu.edu> Message-ID: Bill and Charles wrote (some time ago): >> Darley leaves his copy of King Lear on the dune -- and >> Nessim's telescope is trained on the forgotten volume. > > Would it help in making sense of the Lear reference if you > knew that Durrell had originally written Macbeth and then > struck it out, Bill? He did. I think this may be justifiably called a trend. The references to Blake in _Balthazar_ were initially to Keats, yet having a character by the same name was apparently too confusing to manage. My hunch, given Durrell's frequently plays on Shax (ahem...), is that the MacBeth reference was just too obvious, so some fiddling was necessary. I'd argue that any reference to Shakespeare (in particular) is a reference to the oeuvre in general, which may or may not specifically align with the play mentioned or alluded to. Of course, just what Shax meant for Durrell I can't say, but I can imagine far more than one erudite article on the topic... I'm dabbling on some things for _Prospero's Cell_, but nothing I plan to really get into any time soon. That said, this is going into my teaching notes for the Fall!! I was asked by a student about that scene this year, and I don't think I gave an adequate answer -- this helps a great deal. Best, James From slighcl at wfu.edu Wed May 30 08:48:45 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 11:48:45 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465D9CDD.30300@wfu.edu> On 5/30/2007 11:29 AM, James Gifford wrote: >I think this may be justifiably called a trend. The references to Blake in >_Balthazar_ were initially to Keats, yet having a character by the same name >was apparently too confusing to manage. My hunch, given Durrell's >frequently plays on Shax (ahem...), is that the MacBeth reference was just >too obvious, so some fiddling was necessary. I'd argue that any reference >to Shakespeare (in particular) is a reference to the oeuvre in general, >which may or may not specifically align with the play mentioned or alluded >to. Of course, just what Shax meant for Durrell I can't say, but I can >imagine far more than one erudite article on the topic... I'm dabbling on >some things for _Prospero's Cell_, but nothing I plan to really get into any >time soon. > Thanks, Jamie, and good to hear from you in your travels. Bill--Darley tells us that "a brilliant yellow patch on the dune showed up the cover of a pocket /King Lear/" (3.1). You are a bibliographer and a collector. Does that "yellow patch" spring from anything other than Durrell's imagination? What pocket edition in yellow boards or covers could Darley/Durrell be recalling? "Beloved Elizas"! Alan G. Thomas would tell us how much it cost to post this to LD if we could still catch him. I have just been listening to a wonderful interview that Durrell did with the CBC (1968) in which he declares that he is "a spare parts man"--taking bits and pieces from reality and remaking them as his own. (For a transcript, see Ingersoll 100.) Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/504cf034/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Wed May 30 09:00:58 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:00:58 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear In-Reply-To: <465D9CDD.30300@wfu.edu> Message-ID: I forget in which volume or when, but at one point Durrell gave an instruction to Faber that all references to Keats should be altered to Laforgue. So much for French symbolism. :Michael On Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 04:48 pm, slighcl wrote: > On 5/30/2007 11:29 AM, James Gifford wrote: > > > I think this may be justifiably called a trend. The references to > Blake in > _Balthazar_ were initially to Keats, yet having a character by the > same name > was apparently too confusing to manage. My hunch, given Durrell's > frequently plays on Shax (ahem...), is that the MacBeth reference was > just > too obvious, so some fiddling was necessary. I'd argue that any > reference > to Shakespeare (in particular) is a reference to the oeuvre in general, > which may or may not specifically align with the play mentioned or > alluded > to. Of course, just what Shax meant for Durrell I can't say, but I can > imagine far more than one erudite article on the topic... I'm > dabbling on > some things for _Prospero's Cell_, but nothing I plan to really get > into any > time soon. > > Thanks, Jamie, and good to hear from you in your travels.? > Bill--Darley tells us that "a brilliant yellow patch on the dune > showed up the cover of a pocket King Lear" (3.1).? You are a > bibliographer and a collector.? Does that "yellow patch" spring from > anything other than Durrell's imagination?? What pocket edition in > yellow boards or covers could Darley/Durrell be recalling?? > > "Beloved Elizas"!? Alan G. Thomas would tell us how much it cost to > post this to LD if we could still catch him. > > I have just been listening to a wonderful interview that Durrell did > with the CBC (1968) in which he declares that he is "a spare parts > man"--taking bits and pieces from reality and remaking them as his > own.? (For a transcript, see Ingersoll 100.)? > > Charles > > -- > ********************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > Wake Forest University > slighcl at wfu.edu > ********************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2424 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/29836cf6/attachment.bin From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 30 09:23:20 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 09:23:20 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Accent Message-ID: <19348252.1180542200386.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Denise Tart and David Green call Durrell's accent "impeccably posh." That's not my sense of it, but I'm not British. In 1961, I heard him reading his poetry on an LP, and my reaction then was that his accent was not "upper class." I associate that with the Oxbridge accent (having little exposure to the Queen). How would a Brit classify Durrell's accent? Accent tells a lot about a person and his or her persona. I assume that whatever accent he had that it was natural and not affected, as some people's can be. Brits speak of the upper class accent as being "clipped" -- a phonetic description I've never understood. Can someone also explain this? Bruce >>From: Denise Tart & David Green >>Sent: May 30, 2007 12:43 AM >>To: Durrel >>Subject: [ilds] AUSSIE ETHER: DURRELL AND THE EMPIRE >> >>RP wrote recently of the Aussie ether. What he was refering to I have no notion of except that recent emails have mentioned Durrell's love hate relationship with with the mother country (not cuntry - as one of my students recently spelt it, though perhaps this is apt) which we in Australia, as a member of the British Commonwealth and as a former colony, feel very strongly. Like Durrell many of us born in the empire outside Britain to middle class parents were brought up to respect and imitate the values and conduct of the English Gentleman and yet, upon aquaintance with that country, even given our education, intellect and conduct we were (are) regarded as inferior and indeed condescended to. Durrell never felt accepted in England even though his accent was impeccably posh. His experience of pudding island I believe resonates with many 'colonials' possibly even with Americans although you guys fought off the British (with French help) and have become an empire yourselves leading to a huge sense of cultural importance. When I read Durrell I very much feel his sense of colonial misplacement. Successful Aussie writers go to London or increasingly to New York. Durrell stayed in the Mediterranean, moved around a lot, took comfort in the bottle and probably never felt truly at home in any country. >> >> >>Denise Tart & David Green >>16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 >> From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Wed May 30 09:28:40 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 10:28:40 -0600 Subject: [ilds] Now books on disk In-Reply-To: <74AD6419-0586-11DC-BC83-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > At Alexandria they do not even have the books in storage. They do not > bother with books. They just like having a big empty library. That is > what culture is all about. Michael, I wonder if there's anything Durrell could add to this from that wonderful scene of publisher's dummies in _Revolt of Aphrodite_? For those who were in Victoria, this might recall Michael O'Driscoll's fine paper on Durrell and Pound looking at different libraries in _Guide to Kultur_ and _Tunc_. Best, Jamie From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 30 09:42:40 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 09:42:40 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Spares and Accidents Message-ID: <30014798.1180543361064.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Charles, wonderful culling. I wonder if this had anything to do with the mechanical problems Durrell seemed to have with his various cars -- they were often breaking down, accidentally or not, and he would go off in search of spares, as happens in A Smile in the Mind's Eye. That search then takes him out of the Tibetan monastery and eventually leads to the encounter with Vega or Chantal de Legume. Spares and accidents seem to be narrative devices for Durrell. They probably run or clunk through his entire work. Then again, as we all know, that's the way life or reality works. Bruce > >I have just been listening to a wonderful interview that Durrell did >with the CBC (1968) in which he declares that he is "a spare parts >man"--taking bits and pieces from reality and remaking them as his own. >(For a transcript, see Ingersoll 100.) > >Charles > >-- >********************** >Charles L. Sligh >Department of English >Wake Forest University >slighcl at wfu.edu >********************** > From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Wed May 30 09:56:53 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 10:56:53 -0600 Subject: [ilds] Durrell & the Book In-Reply-To: <20070519215820.TJVT26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: Bill notes: > My psychologist of thirteen years told me that I use my > book collecting as a wall against death. He suggested I > read Becker's The Denial of Death -- so I now have a > first edition of that book in a very nice dust jacket. Brilliant! I actually had the extremely good fortune to study under one of Becker's colleagues at Simon Fraser University (my alma mater). As some of you might know, I think there's an affinity to Durrell as well, mainly via Rank and so forth. Will your books make it into an archive some day, Bill? Milan Kundera recently described the archive as (I'm paraphrasing this) "The dream of equality in a vast collective grave." Given his tendency to proclaim his ownership over the text, even after the reader has bought and paid for it (and marginally marked it up), I find Kundera a compelling foil to Durrell, though I suspect Kundera is the one who gets foiled... I might add Kundera's other thoughts: "Against our real world, which, by its very nature, is fleeting and worthy of forgetting, works of art stand as a different world, a world that is ideal, solid, where every detail has its importance." There are a very great number of hesitating, qualifying commas in that statement. My suspicion is that Kundera's own 'death denying' tendencies may be on display here, since only in the "vast collective grave" of the archive can such a world continue to exist in contrast to the "fleeting and worthy of forgetting" real world of mortality, and we must be utterly fallacious in granting god-head to Milan in order to see providence in "every detail ha[ving] its importance." My suspicion is that an author such as LD would have none of that. Even in an untrustworthy interview he notes that once the book is out there in the world, it takes on a life of its own. I suspect Durrell knew he was going to die, and like Djuna Barnes, he knew that everything he did came back to the problem of having a button up his middle (not a comparison I make flippantly), but authors such as Kundera refuse to admit to it. Then again, my library's archives inform me that Kundera has been something of a revisionist in the truth of his inner worlds... Collective graves indeed. Best, James From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Wed May 30 10:25:45 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 11:25:45 -0600 Subject: [ilds] Arnauti as real In-Reply-To: <20570041.1179677503431.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Bruce wrote: > At the time of my primal event with M. Durrell (not Dr. > Durrell), age sixteen of my youth, I never thought any > "person" in his book was real. They were all fictional > characters. Does that include William Blake and Shakespeare? I'm not being aggressive, just trying to follow up on Charles' intentions (which I fallaciously assume I can know). Personally, just when I think I've learned how to spot Durrell's creation of a 'ghost,' I discover he's talking about someone 'real.' > The "many fictions of ourselves," or some such (Jamie > can provide the proper quotation and citation to the poetry) I think you mean the "Our view of reality is based on selected fictions" from the Quartet, or perhaps from "In Rhodes" (and that "in" must imply the city rather than the island, which appear below here, perhaps even on Odos Fanourios): Naturally one must smile to see him powerless Not in the face of these small fictions But in the greater one they nourished By exhaustion of the surfaces of life, Leaving the True Way, so that suddenly We no longer haunted the streets Of our native city, guilty as a popular singer, Clad in the fur of some wild animal. Strikes me that this is a wonderful way of implying the "fictions of ourselves" or other notions of identity while also responding to his own vision of Cavafy in the Quartet, although this poem came out at least in 1948. Charles, any idea when that first notebook translation of Cavafy's "The City" was penned? --Jamie From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Wed May 30 10:37:46 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 11:37:46 -0600 Subject: [ilds] Answering Lea Stogdale In-Reply-To: <01C79AE7.2F7973C0.leadale@mts.net> Message-ID: Hello all, You're getting your daily dose of me as I work through my email inbox... Delete me freely. Lea asks two good questions that I think merit responses to the list as a whole rather than in part. > Jamie, did you ever hear the interview conducted with LD > by the previous host of the CBC radio afternoon show > several years ago? It was out of Vancouver. Is this > interview available? Is it worthwhile? I have heard it, and I think you mean the CBC's "Durrell by Himself" interview. I suspect it was recorded in Montreal, the only Canadian city I believe Durrell visited, or at least the only one he commented on. I only have a poor quality recording of it, but let me know if you're sufficiently interested. Also see it in this incarnation: Markle, Fletcher. "Teaching Your Characters That They'Re More or Less Free." Lawrence Durrell: Conversations. Ed. Earl G. Ingersoll. Cranbury, NJ: Associated University Presses, 1998. 99-104. Notes: Transcription of "Telescope: Lawrence Durrell by Himself," directed by Rene Bonniere and moderated by Markle. Aired 7 November 1968 on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. -- Lea also asks: > Was LD an atheist? > He has Balthazar say: 'We are all hunting for rational > reasons for believing in the absurd.' I must admit that I don't think this necessarily implies atheism, and I don't know if I'd grant LD that nom de plume (nor do I think he took it up in the sense that you mean). We may all wish to believe in the absurd, and many of us achieve it. I think Durrell was on a quest for the absurd, and it's pretty hard to be on a quest without at least an inkling of belief if not the real thing... He may have been tired, or like Lancelot, some vast river may have blocked his passage, but if he was an atheist, I'd guess he was the kind that was hoping he might be proved wrong. As for being a Christian, certainly not... Best, Jamie From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Wed May 30 11:04:16 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 12:04:16 -0600 Subject: [ilds] pilfering & Sicilian Carousel In-Reply-To: <46532FA1.8020803@wfu.edu> Message-ID: For _Sicilian Carousel_, I'd always be wary of accepting Durrell's opinions on his own works, especially when he calls something lightweight or pot-boiling. _Pied Piper of Lovers_ is not a great book, but it's certainly a serviceable book and one that can be genuinely enjoyed and read in a literary manner -- Durrell's reasons for denegrating it lay elsewhere... That said, from _Sicilian Carousel_, I do like "Marble Steel, Syracuse." For plagiarism in general, and I've had the unsavoury experience of prosecuting roughly two dozen cases of plagiarism in my classes (or perhaps more -- roughly 5-10% of my class in each first year course I teach), I think Durrell is after something slightly different. I agree with Michael that there's a 'journeyman' quality to this. Bach, Handel, and Vivaldi were unrepentant plagiarists, stealing from themselves and others very, very freely indeed. That said, they often reset works slightly, made changes to orchestration, and so forth. That's of a different period and a different mindset. For Durrell, I think there's a combination. It's expedient in fiction to lift a set piece or historical background (the ethics of it aside), but given Durrell's extreme awareness of textuality, what textual scholars do, and his anticipations of being read that way (his UNESCO lectures on Shakespeare, to my mind, make that clear), I don't think he assumed his audience wouldn't find out. That's also part of the game. For instance, Michael, do you think Durrell knew you'd read _Caesar's Vast Ghost_? Given your interactions with him over Forster and the Durrell-Miller letters, I think he'd be reasonably sure of that. The two pages worked in a journeyman fashion, but they also send scholars to your footnotes to Forster, which leads to Durrell's "Introduction," which leads to Durrell's own borrowings from Forster for the Quartet, which leads to... I think that allusive function (though not strictly speaking an allusion) was a part of the very genuine aesthetic appeal. Durrell did not write books that exist apart from other books -- even _The Black Book_ is very heavily indebted to Oscar Wilde and Djuna Barnes, though Durrell only acknowledges Henry Miller, who I do not think was a particularly profound influence at all... Even in Miller's marginal notes, he marks passages that seem "Miller-esque" but are actually in relation to T.S. Eliot. Does that leave you more or less disappointed, Bruce? That's my two cents... Best, James From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Wed May 30 11:29:59 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 12:29:59 -0600 Subject: [ilds] Vedas v. Corfu In-Reply-To: <4654A677.7080206@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: Marc Piel comments: > Might I add that the > publication dates are not necessarily significant, > especially for the "Quintet", because I believe > that, perhaps different from the AQ, it was > planned form the outset. I can't get into details here, lest I let something slip that should be forthcoming in a nasty academic piece, but the Quintet was not planned as such from the outset... Durrell came into the form and the work as a whole while _Monsieur_ was in proofs and _Livia_ existed only as a first chapter... More to follow on that. As for the first publication of _A Smile in the Mind's Eye_, it was not 1994 after his death. It was first published in London by Wildwood House in 1980, and it includes a reprint of "The Tao and Its Glozes" from _The Aryan Path_ 10.12 (1939), pp. 585-587. If Durrell had found answers, he found them in 1939... I suspect he left those answers behind. Best, James From durrells at otenet.gr Wed May 30 10:56:03 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:56:03 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear References: Message-ID: <01da01c7a2e3$ca38bb60$0100000a@DSC01> Does this mean that in some editions of the Quartet there's a poet-soldier called Johnny Laforgue? RP ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Haag To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear I forget in which volume or when, but at one point Durrell gave an instruction to Faber that all references to Keats should be altered to Laforgue. So much for French symbolism. :Michael On Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 04:48 pm, slighcl wrote: On 5/30/2007 11:29 AM, James Gifford wrote: I think this may be justifiably called a trend. The references to Blake in _Balthazar_ were initially to Keats, yet having a character by the same name was apparently too confusing to manage. My hunch, given Durrell's frequently plays on Shax (ahem...), is that the MacBeth reference was just too obvious, so some fiddling was necessary. I'd argue that any reference to Shakespeare (in particular) is a reference to the oeuvre in general, which may or may not specifically align with the play mentioned or alluded to. Of course, just what Shax meant for Durrell I can't say, but I can imagine far more than one erudite article on the topic... I'm dabbling on some things for _Prospero's Cell_, but nothing I plan to really get into any time soon. Thanks, Jamie, and good to hear from you in your travels. Bill--Darley tells us that "a brilliant yellow patch on the dune showed up the cover of a pocket King Lear" (3.1). You are a bibliographer and a collector. Does that "yellow patch" spring from anything other than Durrell's imagination? What pocket edition in yellow boards or covers could Darley/Durrell be recalling? "Beloved Elizas"! Alan G. Thomas would tell us how much it cost to post this to LD if we could still catch him. I have just been listening to a wonderful interview that Durrell did with the CBC (1968) in which he declares that he is "a spare parts man"--taking bits and pieces from reality and remaking them as his own. (For a transcript, see Ingersoll 100.) Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2298 (20070530) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/573dc86b/attachment.html From durrells at otenet.gr Wed May 30 10:58:40 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:58:40 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Accent References: <19348252.1180542200386.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <01ea01c7a2e4$27c84cf0$0100000a@DSC01> 'Clipped' is exactly how I recall D's accent, especially when he referred to someone else being 'arch'. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Redwine" To: "Durrell list" Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:23 PM Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Accent > Denise Tart and David Green call Durrell's accent "impeccably posh." > That's not my sense of it, but I'm not British. In 1961, I heard him > reading his poetry on an LP, and my reaction then was that his accent was > not "upper class." I associate that with the Oxbridge accent (having > little exposure to the Queen). How would a Brit classify Durrell's > accent? Accent tells a lot about a person and his or her persona. I > assume that whatever accent he had that it was natural and not affected, > as some people's can be. Brits speak of the upper class accent as being > "clipped" -- a phonetic description I've never understood. Can someone > also explain this? > > Bruce > > >>>From: Denise Tart & David Green >>>Sent: May 30, 2007 12:43 AM >>>To: Durrel >>>Subject: [ilds] AUSSIE ETHER: DURRELL AND THE EMPIRE >>> >>>RP wrote recently of the Aussie ether. What he was refering to I have no >>>notion of except that recent emails have mentioned Durrell's love hate >>>relationship with with the mother country (not cuntry - as one of my >>>students recently spelt it, though perhaps this is apt) which we in >>>Australia, as a member of the British Commonwealth and as a former >>>colony, feel very strongly. Like Durrell many of us born in the empire >>>outside Britain to middle class parents were brought up to respect and >>>imitate the values and conduct of the English Gentleman and yet, upon >>>aquaintance with that country, even given our education, intellect and >>>conduct we were (are) regarded as inferior and indeed condescended to. >>>Durrell never felt accepted in England even though his accent was >>>impeccably posh. His experience of pudding island I believe resonates >>>with many 'colonials' possibly even with Americans although you guys >>>fought off the British (with French help) and have become an empire >>>yourselves l! > eading to a huge sense of cultural importance. When I read Durrell I very > much feel his sense of colonial misplacement. Successful Aussie writers go > to London or increasingly to New York. Durrell stayed in the > Mediterranean, moved around a lot, took comfort in the bottle and probably > never felt truly at home in any country. >>> >>> >>>Denise Tart & David Green >>>16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 >>> > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2298 (20070530) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Wed May 30 12:00:45 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 13:00:45 -0600 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 2.10 -- Justine's Skin In-Reply-To: <20070526200625.YCRB13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: For Justine's dark versus pale skin, in one scene she is clothed and in the other she is not -- the pale skin and the dark skin would seem to reflect those areas alternately exposed or protected from the sun... On a literal level, this gives Bill the sexiness he's been watching for, but more seriously, it draws our eyes as readers to the pattern of Darley's eyes as a lover, per se. We only get to see what we're wanted to see, making us ogle the text, so to speak. A typical trick in LD and many other authors (Hemingway is a master at this). I'll leave the original comments below in an abbreviate form. --j On 5/26/07 2:06 PM, "william godshalk" wrote: > I found a few more indications that Justine is of a brown complexion. All my > page references are to the Dutton first edition. > > "... I felt her strong mouth on my own and those worldly brown arms closing > upon mine" (p. 47). > > "... the brown harsh body of Justine naked. ..." (p. 85). > > "... stroking that dark head of beautiful hair ..." (p. 42). > > "... Justine--the dark, vehement creature" (p. 97). > > "... that dark beloved head" (132). > > There are other references to Justine's darkness -- but that's enough for now. > > > >> Charles writes: > >>> So I have a puzzle with which I would ask your help. >>> >>> During the visit to Justine's bedroom with Pursewarden, Darley tells us: >>> "In the warm bronze light her pa[l]e skin looks paler. . . ." (2.10). From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Wed May 30 12:32:53 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 13:32:53 -0600 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 2.21 -- the French sailor and the child prostitutes In-Reply-To: <4657458A.4010802@wfu.edu> Message-ID: Charles comments: > Bill you have already pointed out several times how > non-judgmentally Justine treats its world of rampant > infidelity, casual sex, inversion, prostitution, > molestation, pedarasty, solipsism, and fruitless love. and > The other way Durrell shifts what I am calling his > moral economy--his novel's particular system of moral > possibilities available to characters and the (lack > of) punishments meted out for crossing against those > possibilities--is to leave off the expected moral frame > that Bill is looking for above I don't think the frame is left off at all -- in fact, I'd argue that's the actual frame we're given in the opening epigraphs from Freud and Sade. We have Sade's "crime or the noose" versus Freud's "talk." When the characters leave the brothel, having rescued Justine but not rescuing the children, they do not 'talk.' We're still in the world of Sade. Later on the island, Darley recalls this event -- he remembers it and recites it. He may not have an analyst present, but this seems like the beginnings of 'talk.' The moral frame develops, and in order for it to do so, we need to start a goodly distance below the acceptable. I think the lack of care for those children is meant to catch us, or at least it catches me. By not passing judgement, Durrell starts us off in the Sadean end of things, but the Darley who ends the book seems to at least be pointing us in a different direction. Best, James From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Wed May 30 12:33:06 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 13:33:06 -0600 Subject: [ilds] unfortunately verging on the poetic In-Reply-To: <20070518184137.DEPR13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: Bill and Michael said: >> Things are getting bad in >> Britain, however; almost all British >> publishing companies have been >> taken over by American ones. > > In my ignorance I thought it was the other way around, > e.g. Penguin taking over the American market. Random House, the root of all evil... Who owns Penguin? When will Fabers sell their archives? The small publishing renaissance is not yet upon us, but I do wait for it patiently. A simple tactic I've seen played out over several years in the retail book trade is for large companies to dominate a market (harming smaller retails or specialty shops), ordering large quantities from very small publishers, not paying the invoices on time, then returning the stock unsold -- this often bankrupts the small publisher whose stock is then taken up and sold as remainders... We have more publishing diversity than ever before, provided you want your book in vanilla or chocolate. Doing something creative with the words rather than the flavour requires a lot more effort, or at the least, a willingness to engage with small publishers who often can't pay in any significant way. I'm longing for the day when the academy abandons its 20th century derogation of the so-called 'vanity press.' When an academic press pays no royalties to the author, aims exclusively at a library market, and relies on subsidies from the academy itself, do we not have a vanity press? Within academic publishing, I think this is particularly bad, and I say that as someone who admittedly publishes almost obsessively -- having a successful publication is almost anathema, as is anything that actually gets read... But, what else is a committee to judge one by? Def'n: Donkey: A horse designed by committee. Best, James From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Wed May 30 12:33:19 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 13:33:19 -0600 Subject: [ilds] Eagleton on Durrell & Corfu In-Reply-To: <465C933D.7050000@wfu.edu> Message-ID: Hello all, I?m now back from sunny Corfu and can rejoin this discussion (and dive into the prodigious material that has been flying about!). Eagleton co-taught two sessions of my seminar on Corfu that year, and he was both collegial and kind in deferring to me as the seminar leader in that situation. I take issue with his review (and took issue with it), but I also respect his intentions in academia and his generosity in my few interactions with him. The review's note on the unread copy of _Justine_ is very likely a copy of one of Said's comments on Durrell, and it recurs for Eagleton, as I've noted in a previous email. Suffice to say, when I asked him about the review, he said he couldn't possibly read everything he was asked to review, but they're eager to have his name attached to a review, whether positive or negative. Fair enough... I know this is sadly the case with far too many book reviews, and even recently I've begun to suspect it's the case with far too many books as well. The review is rich in factual errors, even including the number of pages in the book, so there's very little I can say about how much he may have actually read. Eagleton did, however, admit that he might be wrong in his estimation of Durrell, and he also recounted walking about with a copy of Justine in his pocket so that he could be seen to be reading the most daring (in other words sexually free) literature. He was, in other words, also in the same position as his tutor. When I suggested _Revolt of Aphrodite_ might actually appeal to his Marxist interests, he was very open to the possibility -- I don't know if he's yet read Durrell. The lecture, however, was poor. Beatrice might be able to comment on this more thoroughly than I can, or at least I don't feel like digging up my notebook from the day. He's a good speaker: witty and engaging. But, he gave us a a 'strong reading' of Freud in Bloom's sense, and I simply wasn't convinced that the misprision worked. Oddly, and I recall writing some marginal notes to Beatrice beside me on this point, at the moment I thought the recasting of Freud he sought in cultural terms might actually have been made easier had he read Durrell with that notion in mind... In general, my experience has been that when major (or just 'good') theoretical critics actually sit down and read some Durrell, they find he offers far more than expected. He's become a 'great unread,' but once read, his applicability to several current discussions seems to quickly become apparent. I've picked up and eventually set aside many authors whom I still admire and enjoy working on, but Durrell has become the odd fascination since I seem to spot 'durrelliana' no matter what new area I want to move into -- that's why he's become such a focus for my work. Thomas Hardy enchanted me more, and Blake still catches me ever time, but I don't spot them everywhere I turn in the same way... Cheers, James On 5/29/07 2:55 PM, "slighcl" wrote: > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >>> >>> From: william godshalk >>> >>> >> >>> >>> If Eagleton writes as an academic, then he should follow our basic >>> procedures of honest reviewing. If he writes as a hack, then he >>> should not be held to academic standards -- should he? >>> > >> >>> >>> On 5/29/2007 2:58 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >>> >> >> Yes, as a matter of personal integrity. I don't believe in multiple >> standards and personalities. >> > An interesting question. The answer would need to be "yes" if we recognize > the clout that Eagleton's name still carries in Anglo-American academic > circles and the prestige that he enjoys now, in his second career, as someone > who has grown tired of the theory game. >> >>> Shelving culture. The effect of Terry Eagleton on two generations of English >>> students has been disastrous, argues Bryan Appleyard. >>> But now the old Marxist appears to be mellowing >>> http://www.newstatesman.com/200004170049 >>> Bryan Appleyard >>> >>> 17 April 2000 >>> >>> The Idea of Culture >>> Terry Eagleton Blackwell, 156pp, ?12.99 >>> ISBN 0631219668 >>> > When Eagleton reviews a biography of Lawrence Durrell, what he says will > matter and will influence because first and foremost he is Terry Eagleton. > Anyone who has passed through graduate programs in the last two decades knows > that Eagleton has shaped a great deal of the conversation in literary studies. > A selective list from his bibliography could easily be taken as required > academic reading:, whatever the specialization >> >>> Marxism and Literary Criticism Methuen, 1976 >>> Literary Theory: An Introduction (revised 1996) Blackwell, 1983 >>> The Significance of Theory Blackwell, 1989 >>> The Ideology of the Aesthetic Blackwell, 1990 >>> > There is little doubt that Eagleton's failure to engage with Durrell's > biography and writings and the dismissals that he delivers have a wide-ranging > influence. > > So I give three "yes" answers. > * Yes, it mattered that Eagleton assumed wrongly that he could rely on the > clout of his name and his wits and his anecdotes from his university days to > carry him through the review of Ian MacNiven's biography. He failed in that > assumption. (I think that I can admit that I do "hold a candle" not only for > Durrell but for Ian, who has given me much in friendship and in an education > about Durrell. "My friends and other prejudices.") > * Yes, I think that given Eagleton's stature in literary culture the Durrell > School did well to invite Eagleton to speak. An open, honest engagement with > an avowedly suspicious critic can teach us much. > * > * And yes, I think it is a damned shame that Eagleton doubled his dishonor by > giving less than his best attention to the writings of Lawrence Durrell after > having been invited to Corfu. An opportunity missed. Caveat emptor. > Surely some people who heard Eagleton speak on Corfu and who conversed with > him should speak up? Richard has indicated that the performance was a > disappointment--was it a total wash, Richard? Where can we learn more? Does > anyone else have testimony? > > Charles ___________________________ James Gifford Department of English University of Victoria Victoria, B.C., Canada http://web.uvic.ca/~gifford From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Wed May 30 12:40:28 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 13:40:28 -0600 Subject: [ilds] Durrell, Lacan, Bladerunner, etc... In-Reply-To: <015101c7a221$f19e1c80$c6634a55@lacan> Message-ID: Beatrice makes a good point here: > But Durrell's Freud is very much Lacanian since it > is concerned with the "writing of the unconscious" > (I won't elaborate here since it will take us too > far afield). Later Durrell talks also about reading > Lacan; but his association with Denis DeRougemont, > an author discussed extensively by Lacan, and the > way it came about does it not bespeak Durrell's > investment or familiarity in the same context of > issues? Also, Maurice Girodias, son of Durrell?s > first publisher of the Black Book and Durrell?s > publisher in Paris in the late fifties, was also > publishing Bataille in the forties and fifties I suspect Beatrice and I differ slightly on how to read the psychoanalytic dimension in Durrell, but on the whole, I think we'd argue for virtually identical approaches. It's worth noting just how many small links there are between Durrell and the developments in French thought from the 1930s onward -- for instance, Durrell's close friend David Gascoyne makes a highly favourable mention on Lacan in his early book _Introduction to Surreallism_, which we know Durrell read. Whether or not Durrell followed up on that, I don't know, but it would certainly have been in character, and he was in contact with Gascoyne extensively at this time as well as during his time in Paris. > Unfortunately, both Durrell biographies do not seem > to document French readings and contacts as well as > the Anglo-American ones. Voracious reader that > Durrell was, I think he kept up very well with what > was going on in the Paris of his youth, filtering, > understanding, misunderstanding, modifying and raising > objections to things. As Charles, Bill, and I have been privately chatting about for a while, I catalogue of Durrell's known reading materials and his library (as well as marginalia) would be a very genuine boon. Also, the reverse may apply. Given Lacan's highly favourable references to Henry Miller, I would find it surprising if in his vast reading he never opened the pages of a French edition of Durrell... > The same people who chose to ignore this are the ones > who clamor to keep Durrell out of the discussions to > which his work is relevant. I've often bit my tongue from saying this so directly, but it is viable. Durrell has been very, very oddly absent from the discussions to which his contribution would be most valuable. Even his influence on the subsequent authors who are then taken up in several current theoretical modes of literary study remains largely muted. I suspect Beatrice will have something substantial to remedy this problem in the nearing future... I'm waiting and watching for it. And, Beatrice, you've been reading my mind. I recall in my notebooks jotting down several observations when I last (slightly drunkenly) watched _Bladerunner_ when I was considering using it in a class again: > Durrell's text was indirectly responsible for bringing > about the whole cyborg issue (what did was _Do Androids > dream of Electric Sheep_ or _Bladerunner_ the movie, > which is clearly indebted to Durrell's _Revolt_). This is yet another fertile field for discussion. I think the influence on Bladerunner is far stronger than has been noticed, both on the surface and in the execution. > Ask not what the academy can do for Durrell, but what > Durrell can do for the academy Huzzah! I think the academy is reluctant to let him... Personally, I've found some of the silences most palpable at the points where Durrell would trouble the necessary assumptions for key paradigms. Why doesn't Said mention Durrell? Why don't we find Durrell in pyschoanalytic readings of literature (what would Zizek do, for example?)? When not Durrell in studies of narratology? When will Durrell break into reader response? I suspect his absence speaks a great deal to his ability to disturb the accepted norms of these academic fields in ways that many critics simply do not want to deal with. Hence, even where he's ostensibly the ideal subject, he's oddly absent, as if he both wouldn't fit the mould and might even ask if the mould is flawed. Best, James ___________________________ James Gifford Department of English University of Victoria Victoria, B.C., Canada http://web.uvic.ca/~gifford From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 30 13:32:46 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 13:32:46 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Eagleton on Durrell & Corfu Message-ID: <9634639.1180557167198.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I guess enough has been said about Eagleton's review of NacNiven's biography of Durrell, but for Eagleton to say "he couldn't possibly read everything he was asked to review" -- I find that statement utterly despicable. The man has little integrity about book reviewing. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: James Gifford >Sent: May 30, 2007 12:33 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] Eagleton on Durrell & Corfu > >The review's note on the unread copy of _Justine_ is very likely a copy of >one of Said's comments on Durrell, and it recurs for Eagleton, as I've noted >in a previous email. Suffice to say, when I asked him about the review, he >said he couldn't possibly read everything he was asked to review, but >they're eager to have his name attached to a review, whether positive or >negative. Fair enough... I know this is sadly the case with far too many >book reviews, and even recently I've begun to suspect it's the case with far >too many books as well. The review is rich in factual errors, even >including the number of pages in the book, so there's very little I can say >about how much he may have actually read. From slighcl at wfu.edu Wed May 30 13:52:22 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 16:52:22 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 2.21 -- the French sailor and the child prostitutes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465DE406.9070705@wfu.edu> On 5/30/2007 3:32 PM, James Gifford wrote: > >The moral frame develops, and in order for it to do so, we need to start a >goodly distance below the acceptable. I think the lack of care for those >children is meant to catch us, or at least it catches me. By not passing >judgement, Durrell starts us off in the Sadean end of things, but the Darley >who ends the book seems to at least be pointing us in a different direction. > I like this reading, Jamie. I was writing my earlier email on the "moral economy" of /Justine /from the perspective of someone who over the years has drifted backward through literary periods and now teaches Victorian Poetry and Novels. For the Victorian Novels of Charlotte Bront?, Charles Dickens, George Eliot, &c. the (perhaps) dated terms of "moral economy" and "moral framework" &c. tend to be right there on view for the reader's education, which most often is meant to follow the education of the character whose pilgrimage gets rehearsed. I find that it is very helpful--very restorative--for me to assume the "character" of a Victorian reader who has through some /temporal anomaly/ just picked up /Justine: A Novel/ by Lawrence Durrell. (Think of someone training on a 'holodeck', and you will be following me.) Without a doubt, the "real" Charles in 2007 is an over-practiced reader who at one time hungrily devoured Conrad, Joyce, Woolf, Ford, Hemingway, Faulkner, &c. &c. If I only read in that character--as the Charles who has read /Justine /over and over again all of these years and who already knows the "turn ons" and "turn offs" of modernism and postmoderism backwards and forwards--then I find that I am only jaded old me. I am tired of tears and laughter, And men that laugh and weep; Of what may come hereafter For men that sow to reap: I am weary of days and hours, Blown buds of barren flowers, Desires and dreams and powers And everything but sleep. I can't hear my book anymore. Instead, in order to see again, I often start by pretending to be more naive, an imagined "Victorian" Charles in a highly stereotyped sense, stepping from the classroom in which I teach Victorian morals and manners over to Durrell's hothouse, Alexandria. Other times I can put a much different sort of Victorian character--imagine, say, Algernon Charles Swinburne or Walter Pater or Aubrey Beardsley sitting down to read Lawrence Durrell. That game of reading brings along much different returns. "'We are human beings not Bront? cartoons'" (3.1) Most of all these days I want to read like Sade's "Lovely Th?r?se." Like a naive first-timer. A bit masochistic, really. But I have learned to be very voyeuristic in designing my syllabi--jealous of first encounters with the books I select for my students to read--jealous of the surprise and tussle and (sometimes) the flash of first recognition--and I cannot shake the practice. Some of my best classroom discussions in Victorian Poetry courses come when the younger undergraduates from conservative or evangelical backgrounds walk in the room and ready themselves to deal with Arnold's "Dover Beach," or with Browning's "Bishop Blougram," or (especially) with Swinburne's "Anactoria," /Atalanta in Calydon/, or "Hertha." /There /is real readerly struggle and contest--call it "earnestness," if you must--/there /I get a sampling (in facsimile) of the original, distressing, challenging impact that those diverse Victorian poems had on their audiences, the real encounter with doubt and the diminishment of the old safe assurances. I want to remember, as Bruce has said, that Durrell is a surprising and sometimes "dangerous" author. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/138814df/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Wed May 30 14:52:06 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 22:52:06 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Eagleton on Durrell & Corfu In-Reply-To: <9634639.1180557167198.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <025F3E35-0EF8-11DC-9068-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> I agree with Bruce on that. And I am shocked at how easily 'the academy' makes excuses for that sort of dishonest behaviour. I'm all right, Jack, and to hell with integrity. :Michael On Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 09:32 pm, Bruce Redwine wrote: > I guess enough has been said about Eagleton's review of NacNiven's > biography of Durrell, but for Eagleton to say "he couldn't possibly > read everything he was asked to review" -- I find that statement > utterly despicable. The man has little integrity about book > reviewing. > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- >> From: James Gifford >> Sent: May 30, 2007 12:33 PM >> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> Subject: [ilds] Eagleton on Durrell & Corfu >> >> The review's note on the unread copy of _Justine_ is very likely a >> copy of >> one of Said's comments on Durrell, and it recurs for Eagleton, as >> I've noted >> in a previous email. Suffice to say, when I asked him about the >> review, he >> said he couldn't possibly read everything he was asked to review, but >> they're eager to have his name attached to a review, whether positive >> or >> negative. Fair enough... I know this is sadly the case with far too >> many >> book reviews, and even recently I've begun to suspect it's the case >> with far >> too many books as well. The review is rich in factual errors, even >> including the number of pages in the book, so there's very little I >> can say >> about how much he may have actually read. > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Wed May 30 14:43:02 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:43:02 +0200 Subject: [ilds] Vedas v. Corfu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465DEFE6.4000001@interdesign.fr> So "A Smile in the Mind's Eye" was published in 1982 and 1984. LD was 77 or 79 years old. What does that change in my remarK? How will you be at those ages???? Marc Piel James Gifford wrote: > Marc Piel comments: > > >>Might I add that the >>publication dates are not necessarily significant, >>especially for the "Quintet", because I believe >>that, perhaps different from the AQ, it was >>planned form the outset. > > > I can't get into details here, lest I let something slip that should be > forthcoming in a nasty academic piece, but the Quintet was not planned as > such from the outset... Durrell came into the form and the work as a whole > while _Monsieur_ was in proofs and _Livia_ existed only as a first > chapter... > > More to follow on that. > > As for the first publication of _A Smile in the Mind's Eye_, it was not 1994 > after his death. It was first published in London by Wildwood House in > 1980, and it includes a reprint of "The Tao and Its Glozes" from _The Aryan > Path_ 10.12 (1939), pp. 585-587. > > If Durrell had found answers, he found them in 1939... I suspect he left > those answers behind. > > Best, > James > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Wed May 30 14:49:56 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:49:56 +0200 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear In-Reply-To: <01da01c7a2e3$ca38bb60$0100000a@DSC01> References: <01da01c7a2e3$ca38bb60$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <465DF184.6090609@interdesign.fr> His name was never "johnny" but "Jules". This should be particularly important for the americans amongst you because one of his achievements was translating Walt Whitman. Great Poet and important figure of american literature. (Which cannot be said of some of these posts). Marc Piel Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > Does this mean that in some editions of the Quartet there's a > poet-soldier called Johnny Laforgue? > RP > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Haag > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:00 PM > Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear > > I forget in which volume or when, but at one point Durrell gave an > instruction to Faber that all references to Keats should be altered > to Laforgue. So much for French symbolism. > > :Michael > > > > On Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 04:48 pm, slighcl wrote: > > On 5/30/2007 11:29 AM, James Gifford wrote: > > > I think this may be justifiably called a trend. The references > to Blake in > _Balthazar_ were initially to Keats, yet having a character by > the same name > was apparently too confusing to manage. My hunch, given Durrell's > frequently plays on Shax (ahem...), is that the MacBeth > reference was just > too obvious, so some fiddling was necessary. I'd argue that any > reference > to Shakespeare (in particular) is a reference to the oeuvre in > general, > which may or may not specifically align with the play mentioned > or alluded > to. Of course, just what Shax meant for Durrell I can't say, but > I can > imagine far more than one erudite article on the topic... I'm > dabbling on > some things for _Prospero's Cell_, but nothing I plan to really > get into any > time soon. > > Thanks, Jamie, and good to hear from you in your travels. > Bill--Darley tells us that "a brilliant yellow patch on the dune > showed up the cover of a pocket King Lear" (3.1). You are a > bibliographer and a collector. Does that "yellow patch" spring > from anything other than Durrell's imagination? What pocket > edition in yellow boards or covers could Darley/Durrell be > recalling? > > "Beloved Elizas"! Alan G. Thomas would tell us how much it cost > to post this to LD if we could still catch him. > > I have just been listening to a wonderful interview that Durrell > did with the CBC (1968) in which he declares that he is "a spare > parts man"--taking bits and pieces from reality and remaking > them as his own. (For a transcript, see Ingersoll 100.) > > Charles > > -- > ********************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > Wake Forest University > slighcl at wfu.edu > ********************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > __________ NOD32 2298 (20070530) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Wed May 30 14:54:21 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:54:21 +0200 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 2.10 -- Justine's Skin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465DF28D.5070005@interdesign.fr> Let us not confuse "we only get to see what we're wanted to see" with "We only capable to see what we're wanted to see" Marc Piel James Gifford wrote: > For Justine's dark versus pale skin, in one scene she is clothed and in the > other she is not -- the pale skin and the dark skin would seem to reflect > those areas alternately exposed or protected from the sun... On a literal > level, this gives Bill the sexiness he's been watching for, but more > seriously, it draws our eyes as readers to the pattern of Darley's eyes as a > lover, per se. We only get to see what we're wanted to see, making us ogle > the text, so to speak. A typical trick in LD and many other authors > (Hemingway is a master at this). > > I'll leave the original comments below in an abbreviate form. > > --j > > On 5/26/07 2:06 PM, "william godshalk" wrote: > > >>I found a few more indications that Justine is of a brown complexion. All my >>page references are to the Dutton first edition. >> >>"... I felt her strong mouth on my own and those worldly brown arms closing >>upon mine" (p. 47). >> >>"... the brown harsh body of Justine naked. ..." (p. 85). >> >>"... stroking that dark head of beautiful hair ..." (p. 42). >> >>"... Justine--the dark, vehement creature" (p. 97). >> >>"... that dark beloved head" (132). >> >>There are other references to Justine's darkness -- but that's enough for now. >> >> >> >> >>>Charles writes: >> >>>>So I have a puzzle with which I would ask your help. >>>> >>>>During the visit to Justine's bedroom with Pursewarden, Darley tells us: >>>>"In the warm bronze light her pa[l]e skin looks paler. . . ." (2.10). > > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Wed May 30 15:04:03 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:04:03 +0200 Subject: [ilds] Answering Lea Stogdale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465DF4D3.1040805@interdesign.fr> Is someone going to put these "files" online for the non professionals on this list? Or are you just showing how knowledgeable you are? How do you expect "lay" people to understand and participate? Marc Piel James Gifford wrote: > Hello all, > > You're getting your daily dose of me as I work through my email inbox... > Delete me freely. > > Lea asks two good questions that I think merit responses to the list as a > whole rather than in part. > > >>Jamie, did you ever hear the interview conducted with LD >>by the previous host of the CBC radio afternoon show >>several years ago? It was out of Vancouver. Is this >>interview available? Is it worthwhile? > > > I have heard it, and I think you mean the CBC's "Durrell by Himself" > interview. I suspect it was recorded in Montreal, the only Canadian city I > believe Durrell visited, or at least the only one he commented on. I only > have a poor quality recording of it, but let me know if you're sufficiently > interested. Also see it in this incarnation: > > Markle, Fletcher. "Teaching Your Characters That They'Re More or Less Free." > Lawrence Durrell: Conversations. Ed. Earl G. Ingersoll. Cranbury, NJ: > Associated University Presses, 1998. 99-104. > > Notes: Transcription of "Telescope: Lawrence Durrell by Himself," directed > by Rene Bonniere and moderated by Markle. Aired 7 November 1968 on the > Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. > > -- > Lea also asks: > > >>Was LD an atheist? >>He has Balthazar say: 'We are all hunting for rational >>reasons for believing in the absurd.' > > > I must admit that I don't think this necessarily implies atheism, and I > don't know if I'd grant LD that nom de plume (nor do I think he took it up > in the sense that you mean). We may all wish to believe in the absurd, and > many of us achieve it. I think Durrell was on a quest for the absurd, and > it's pretty hard to be on a quest without at least an inkling of belief if > not the real thing... He may have been tired, or like Lancelot, some vast > river may have blocked his passage, but if he was an atheist, I'd guess he > was the kind that was hoping he might be proved wrong. > > As for being a Christian, certainly not... > > Best, > Jamie > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 30 15:27:49 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 15:27:49 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Eagleton on Durrell Message-ID: <27731581.1180564070003.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Moreover, the review itself is a trashing of Lawrence Durrell. It is a savage attack on the man and his life based on either willful misrepresentation or smug prejudice or both. For some, I guess, fame is both irresistible and a license to abandon fairness and decency. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Haag >Sent: May 30, 2007 2:52 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] Eagleton on Durrell & Corfu > >I agree with Bruce on that. And I am shocked at how easily 'the >academy' makes excuses for that sort of dishonest behaviour. I'm all >right, Jack, and to hell with integrity. > >:Michael > > >On Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 09:32 pm, Bruce Redwine wrote: > >> I guess enough has been said about Eagleton's review of NacNiven's >> biography of Durrell, but for Eagleton to say "he couldn't possibly >> read everything he was asked to review" -- I find that statement >> utterly despicable. The man has little integrity about book > reviewing. >> >> Bruce >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: James Gifford >>> Sent: May 30, 2007 12:33 PM >>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>> Subject: [ilds] Eagleton on Durrell & Corfu >>> >>> The review's note on the unread copy of _Justine_ is very likely a >>> copy of >>> one of Said's comments on Durrell, and it recurs for Eagleton, as >>> I've noted >>> in a previous email. Suffice to say, when I asked him about the >>> review, he >>> said he couldn't possibly read everything he was asked to review, but >>> they're eager to have his name attached to a review, whether positive >>> or >>> negative. Fair enough... From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 30 16:07:55 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 16:07:55 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] "many fictions"/"many negatives" Message-ID: <26819930.1180566475306.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Jamie, yes, that especially includes Blake and Shakespeare. I'm beginning to think all of Durrell's characters are fictional, even the ones based on "real" people. He did what Charles talked about earlier today -- he took "spare parts" of things and reassembled them to his own choosing. I include people here. Not at all surprising, most writers probably do this. That's a great quote Charles found from the Ingersoll book of collected conversations, where Durrell says, "I'm a spare parts man" (Lawrence Durrell: Conversations, 1998, p. 100). Thanks for trying to dig up my "many fictions of ourselves," but my memory failed me again. I actually had in mind, "I now move / Through the many negatives to what I am" ("Alexandria," ll. 8-9). "Negatives" could mean feminine "negative selves," maybe in the sense of Jungian animae, but I also take it to mean "photographic negatives," alternate selves. Interesting how the two meanings complement one another. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: James Gifford >Sent: May 30, 2007 10:25 AM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] Arnauti as real > >Bruce wrote: > >> At the time of my primal event with M. Durrell (not Dr. >> Durrell), age sixteen of my youth, I never thought any >> "person" in his book was real. They were all fictional >> characters. > >Does that include William Blake and Shakespeare? I'm not being aggressive, >just trying to follow up on Charles' intentions (which I fallaciously assume >I can know). Personally, just when I think I've learned how to spot >Durrell's creation of a 'ghost,' I discover he's talking about someone >'real.' > >> The "many fictions of ourselves," or some such (Jamie >> can provide the proper quotation and citation to the poetry) > >I think you mean the "Our view of reality is based on selected fictions" >from the Quartet, or perhaps from "In Rhodes" (and that "in" must imply the >city rather than the island, which appear below here, perhaps even on Odos >Fanourios): > > Naturally one must smile to see him powerless > Not in the face of these small fictions > But in the greater one they nourished > By exhaustion of the surfaces of life, > Leaving the True Way, so that suddenly > We no longer haunted the streets > Of our native city, guilty as a popular singer, > Clad in the fur of some wild animal. > >Strikes me that this is a wonderful way of implying the "fictions of >ourselves" or other notions of identity while also responding to his own >vision of Cavafy in the Quartet, although this poem came out at least in >1948. Charles, any idea when that first notebook translation of Cavafy's >"The City" was penned? > >--Jamie From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed May 30 16:10:17 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 19:10:17 -0400 Subject: [ilds] tunc and do androids In-Reply-To: References: <015101c7a221$f19e1c80$c6634a55@lacan> Message-ID: <20070530231016.SLYT13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/d2e1a7fb/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 30 16:21:52 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 16:21:52 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] tunc and do androids Message-ID: <19184121.1180567312531.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/20e5fe68/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed May 30 16:24:26 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 19:24:26 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear In-Reply-To: <465D9CDD.30300@wfu.edu> References: <465D9CDD.30300@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070530232428.FVQI26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/87fe5945/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Wed May 30 16:33:56 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 19:33:56 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Eagleton on Durrell In-Reply-To: <27731581.1180564070003.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <27731581.1180564070003.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <465E09E4.6000304@wfu.edu> On 5/30/2007 6:27 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >Moreover, the review itself is a trashing of Lawrence Durrell. It is a savage attack on the man and his life based on either willful misrepresentation or smug prejudice or both. For some, I guess, fame is both irresistible and a license to abandon fairness and decency. > Whatever the source of Eagleton's dark energy? I will put money on the zinc bar counter that the review was not about "Lawrence Durrell" nor about Ian MacNiven's biography. Mark me: there is a /tertium quid/. Hypothesis: Eagleton's nasty verve in taking down Durrell drew upon old memories, old anxieties. The "old Cambridge tutor" is the least of it. He was writing against someone else. Perhaps even against the Terry Eagleton who queened about with his copy of /Justine /and then regretted it? Still queening about with my copy-- CLS -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/8c6dd96a/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed May 30 16:37:56 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 19:37:56 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear In-Reply-To: <01da01c7a2e3$ca38bb60$0100000a@DSC01> References: <01da01c7a2e3$ca38bb60$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070530233748.GFDC9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Was Keats a soldier? Isn't he a reporter and photographer? Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Wed May 30 16:22:56 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 01:22:56 +0200 Subject: [ilds] "many fictions"/"many negatives" In-Reply-To: <26819930.1180566475306.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <26819930.1180566475306.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <465E0750.3070409@interdesign.fr> Durrell wrote "we live selective fictions" I retained that from my first reading in the 1960's. Marc Piel Bruce Redwine wrote: > Jamie, yes, that especially includes Blake and Shakespeare. I'm beginning to think all of Durrell's characters are fictional, even the ones based on "real" people. He did what Charles talked about earlier today -- he took "spare parts" of things and reassembled them to his own choosing. I include people here. Not at all surprising, most writers probably do this. That's a great quote Charles found from the Ingersoll book of collected conversations, where Durrell says, "I'm a spare parts man" (Lawrence Durrell: Conversations, 1998, p. 100). Thanks for trying to dig up my "many fictions of ourselves," but my memory failed me again. I actually had in mind, "I now move / Through the many negatives to what I am" ("Alexandria," ll. 8-9). "Negatives" could mean feminine "negative selves," maybe in the sense of Jungian animae, but I also take it to mean "photographic negatives," alternate selves. Interesting how the two meanings complement one another. > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- > >>From: James Gifford >>Sent: May 30, 2007 10:25 AM >>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>Subject: Re: [ilds] Arnauti as real >> >>Bruce wrote: >> >> >>>At the time of my primal event with M. Durrell (not Dr. >>>Durrell), age sixteen of my youth, I never thought any >>>"person" in his book was real. They were all fictional >>>characters. >> >>Does that include William Blake and Shakespeare? I'm not being aggressive, >>just trying to follow up on Charles' intentions (which I fallaciously assume >>I can know). Personally, just when I think I've learned how to spot >>Durrell's creation of a 'ghost,' I discover he's talking about someone >>'real.' >> >> >>>The "many fictions of ourselves," or some such (Jamie >>>can provide the proper quotation and citation to the poetry) >> >>I think you mean the "Our view of reality is based on selected fictions" > >>from the Quartet, or perhaps from "In Rhodes" (and that "in" must imply the > >>city rather than the island, which appear below here, perhaps even on Odos >>Fanourios): >> >> Naturally one must smile to see him powerless >> Not in the face of these small fictions >> But in the greater one they nourished >> By exhaustion of the surfaces of life, >> Leaving the True Way, so that suddenly >> We no longer haunted the streets >> Of our native city, guilty as a popular singer, >> Clad in the fur of some wild animal. >> >>Strikes me that this is a wonderful way of implying the "fictions of >>ourselves" or other notions of identity while also responding to his own >>vision of Cavafy in the Quartet, although this poem came out at least in >>1948. Charles, any idea when that first notebook translation of Cavafy's >>"The City" was penned? >> >>--Jamie > > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Wed May 30 16:32:44 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 01:32:44 +0200 Subject: [ilds] tunc and do androids In-Reply-To: <19184121.1180567312531.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <19184121.1180567312531.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <465E099C.6000209@interdesign.fr> Derrida was the "Deconstructionists", Kristeva more the psychoanalyst. I guess you know she was his "concubine"? A ripe pair! marc piel Bruce Redwine wrote: > Intertextuality! Julia Kristeva! Deconstructionists arise! Of which, > so says LD, "the mental self-indulgence of Paris with its tedious > mystagogues relentlessly complicating the obvious by giving it fancy > names" (A Smile in the Mind's Eye, p. 63). > > Bruce > > > -----Original Message----- > From: william godshalk > Sent: May 30, 2007 4:10 PM > To: gifford at uvic.ca, ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Subject: Re: [ilds] tunc and do androids > > Tunc was copyrighted in 1968 and Do Androids Dream of Electric > Sheep? was copyrighted in the same year. Using my library and the > Web, I can't tell which was published first. Dick's biographer > doesn't mention Durrell. > > Bill > > > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Wed May 30 16:44:12 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:44:12 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear In-Reply-To: <20070530233748.GFDC9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: He became a soldier. It was the making of him. Viz Keith Douglas and the photo of Melina I posted some years ago (little girls grow up in the most alarming ways). :Michael On Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 12:37 am, william godshalk wrote: > Was Keats a soldier? Isn't he a reporter and photographer? > > Bill > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 30 16:42:18 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 16:42:18 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] tunc and do androids Message-ID: <19400361.1180568538640.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Thanks again, Marc. I didn't know that. They were bedfellows, though, doing a little intertexting together, so I had part of it right. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Marc Piel >Sent: May 30, 2007 4:32 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] tunc and do androids > >Derrida was the "Deconstructionists", Kristeva >more the psychoanalyst. >I guess you know she was his "concubine"? A ripe pair! >marc piel > >Bruce Redwine wrote: > >> Intertextuality! Julia Kristeva! Deconstructionists arise! Of which, >> so says LD, "the mental self-indulgence of Paris with its tedious >> mystagogues relentlessly complicating the obvious by giving it fancy >> names" (A Smile in the Mind's Eye, p. 63). >> >> Bruce >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: william godshalk >> Sent: May 30, 2007 4:10 PM >> To: gifford at uvic.ca, ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> Subject: Re: [ilds] tunc and do androids >> >> Tunc was copyrighted in 1968 and Do Androids Dream of Electric >> Sheep? was copyrighted in the same year. Using my library and the >> Web, I can't tell which was published first. Dick's biographer >> doesn't mention Durrell. >> >> Bill >> >> >> *************************************** >> W. L. Godshalk * >> Department of English * >> University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >> 513-281-5927 >> *************************************** >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Wed May 30 16:46:29 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 00:46:29 +0100 Subject: [ilds] tunc and do androids In-Reply-To: <465E099C.6000209@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: When Adam deconstructed and Eve shrank, Who was then the ripest crank? :M On Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 12:32 am, Marc Piel wrote: > Derrida was the "Deconstructionists", Kristeva > more the psychoanalyst. > I guess you know she was his "concubine"? A ripe pair! > marc piel > > Bruce Redwine wrote: > >> Intertextuality! Julia Kristeva! Deconstructionists arise! Of >> which, >> so says LD, "the mental self-indulgence of Paris with its tedious >> mystagogues relentlessly complicating the obvious by giving it fancy >> names" (A Smile in the Mind's Eye, p. 63). >> >> Bruce >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: william godshalk >> Sent: May 30, 2007 4:10 PM >> To: gifford at uvic.ca, ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> Subject: Re: [ilds] tunc and do androids >> >> Tunc was copyrighted in 1968 and Do Androids Dream of Electric >> Sheep? was copyrighted in the same year. Using my library and the >> Web, I can't tell which was published first. Dick's biographer >> doesn't mention Durrell. >> >> Bill >> >> >> *************************************** >> W. L. Godshalk * >> Department of English * >> University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >> 513-281-5927 >> *************************************** >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed May 30 16:53:56 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 19:53:56 -0400 Subject: [ilds] the L-shaped room Message-ID: <20070530235358.GHOX9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Conrad's L shaped room is in "The Secret Sharer." A naval architect took me that L shaped rooms go from rare to nonexistent on ships. My first teacher of Conrad suggested that the L stands for Life. Does the Summer Palace stand for Life? Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed May 30 16:56:59 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 19:56:59 -0400 Subject: [ilds] John Keats In-Reply-To: References: <20070530233748.GFDC9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070530235929.GAOJ26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> >He became a soldier. It was the making of him. Viz Keith Douglas and >the photo of Melina I posted some years ago (little girls grow up in >the most alarming ways). Yes, I had forgotten his transformation and death. RIPJK. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 30 17:02:57 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:02:57 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] the L-shaped room Message-ID: <10367017.1180569777851.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Ah, "The Secret Sharer," of course -- and now we're back to doubles and doppelgangers. Le circle referme. Bring in the good doctor again! Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: May 30, 2007 4:53 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] the L-shaped room > >Conrad's L shaped room is in "The Secret Sharer." A naval architect >took me that L shaped rooms go from rare to nonexistent on ships. My >first teacher of Conrad suggested that the L stands for Life. Does >the Summer Palace stand for Life? > >Bill >*************************************** >W. L. Godshalk * >Department of English * >University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >513-281-5927 https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Wed May 30 17:10:54 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 01:10:54 +0100 Subject: [ilds] the L-shaped room In-Reply-To: <20070530235358.GHOX9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <65E79FF0-0F0B-11DC-9068-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> No. :M On Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 12:53 am, william godshalk wrote: > Conrad's L shaped room is in "The Secret Sharer." A naval architect > took me that L shaped rooms go from rare to nonexistent on ships. My > first teacher of Conrad suggested that the L stands for Life. Does > the Summer Palace stand for Life? > > Bill > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Wed May 30 17:14:33 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 01:14:33 +0100 Subject: [ilds] the L-shaped room In-Reply-To: <10367017.1180569777851.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I think the time has come to make public the generous offer of Dr Anthony Durrell to have his asymmetrically coloured shoes granted as an annual prize to the worthiest talk given at the Durrell School of Corfu. I would like to nominate Tony Eagleton. I look forward to Richard Pine seconding the nomination. :Michael On Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 01:02 am, Bruce Redwine wrote: > Ah, "The Secret Sharer," of course -- and now we're back to doubles > and doppelgangers. Le circle referme. Bring in the good doctor > again! > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- >> From: william godshalk >> Sent: May 30, 2007 4:53 PM >> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> Subject: [ilds] the L-shaped room >> >> Conrad's L shaped room is in "The Secret Sharer." A naval architect >> took me that L shaped rooms go from rare to nonexistent on ships. My >> first teacher of Conrad suggested that the L stands for Life. Does >> the Summer Palace stand for Life? >> >> Bill >> *************************************** >> W. L. Godshalk * >> Department of English * >> University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >> 513-281-5927 > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From slighcl at wfu.edu Wed May 30 17:13:55 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:13:55 -0400 Subject: [ilds] what do androids dream of doing with electric sheep? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465E1343.9030600@wfu.edu> On 5/30/2007 7:46 PM, Michael Haag wrote: >When Adam deconstructed and Eve shrank, >Who was then the ripest crank? > > The first Great Lord in our English land > To honour the Freudian command, > For a cast in the bush is worth two in the hand > Aboard the Victory, Victory O. As caroled /roundly /by James Gifford, Wednesday, 28 June 2006, 9:17 PM, McMorran's Beach House, Cordova Bay, BC. -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/7e122676/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 30 17:26:04 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:26:04 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] the L-shaped room Message-ID: <25128701.1180571164840.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Thirded. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Haag >Sent: May 30, 2007 5:14 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] the L-shaped room > >I think the time has come to make public the generous offer of Dr >Anthony Durrell to have his asymmetrically coloured shoes granted as an >annual prize to the worthiest talk given at the Durrell School of >Corfu. I would like to nominate Tony Eagleton. I look forward to >Richard Pine seconding the nomination. > >:Michael > > >On Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 01:02 am, Bruce Redwine wrote: > >> Ah, "The Secret Sharer," of course -- and now we're back to doubles >> and doppelgangers. Le circle referme. Bring in the good doctor > again! >> >> Bruce >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: william godshalk >>> Sent: May 30, 2007 4:53 PM >>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>> Subject: [ilds] the L-shaped room >>> >>> Conrad's L shaped room is in "The Secret Sharer." A naval architect >>> took me that L shaped rooms go from rare to nonexistent on ships. My >>> first teacher of Conrad suggested that the L stands for Life. Does >>> the Summer Palace stand for Life? >>> >>> Bill From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed May 30 17:26:20 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:26:20 -0400 Subject: [ilds] L shaped In-Reply-To: <22E8A739-0E9F-11DC-8C5A-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <20070530013348.ZOPC9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <22E8A739-0E9F-11DC-8C5A-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070531002632.GMHB9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Michael, Thanks for the information. I of course have seen a picture of Burg el Arab before, but I did not do the requisite mathematics. Bill At 07:15 AM 5/30/2007, you wrote: >Justine's Summer Palace at Burg el Arab is a real place -- or rather >Burg el Arab is a real place which has given its name to the several >houses built there in the 1920s and 1930s. > >Burg el Arab means Tower of the Arabs and refers to a tower built >probably in the Roman period (though some have argued Ptolemaic) in >the form of the Pharos but one-tenth its size. It has been thought >to have been a lighthouse, like the Pharos in Alexandria, but there >is also opinion that it was built as a very large funerary >monument. The tower stands on a limestone ridge running along the >coast west of Alexandria. Durrell went swimming near here with Eve >and friends in 1944, a moment he describes in a letter to Miller in >May that year. The photograph below shows the ancient tower. > > > > > > >Inland from this ridge is a further limestone ridge on which Wilfred >Jennings Bramly built his home in the 1920s. Bramly had been in >charge of the Western Desert Frontier Administration until >1922. This was the 'crusader fort' Durrell described in his letter >-- not crusader and not abandoned either; Bramly lived there until >1956. The house as it looks today is shown below; it has been taken >over by the Egyptian state and serves as presidential rest house >(hence the telecommunications tower); from here Anwar Sadat secretly >prepared for the 1973 war against Israel. > > > > > > >Just beyond this second ridge lay a settlement, built by Bramly and >in his friends in the 1930s, in the form of houses arranged in a >circle like a miniature walled Tuscan town. The place was given the >name Burg el Arab. To my knowledge Durrell never came here, but his >friend Robin Fedden knew it well; he was often a guest at Dar el >Qadi, the house at Burg built by Jasper Brinton, the American who >was president of the Court of Appeal of the Mixed Courts, and so >Durrell would have had an account of this new Burg el Arab from >Fedden. The photograph below shows Dar el Qadi in about 1937 after >building works were completed; in the foreground is a Bedouin tent. > > > > > > >I have stayed in the house above, but I do not recall an L-shaped >room, but I do not see why it should not have had one. I have >somewhere a detailed description of Bramly's own house; possibly it >mentions such a room. Then again the L-shaped room may have some >subtle cosmic meaning or literary association known to Durrell. > >:Michael > > > > >On Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 02:33 am, william godshalk wrote: > >>In 3.1 (p. 163), Justine's Summer Palace is an "L-shaped block of >>buildings." I immediately thought of Conrad's famous L-shaped room. >>But the connection is tenuous or perhaps nonexistent. In any case, >>would an L-shaped compound be efficient in the desert? I would go for >>an inner courtyard surrounding the water supply with the buildings >>built around as shelter. >> >>Bill > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 30 17:33:51 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:33:51 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Eagleton on Durrell Message-ID: <31268891.1180571631798.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> This is getting too Byzantine for me. Are we now improvising on Durrell's Monsieur? Is Eagleton actually one of Durrell's "spare parts" in the Avignon Quintet? Does that explain TE's animus? Bruce >-----Original Message----- >>From: slighcl >>Sent: May 30, 2007 4:33 PM >>To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>Subject: Re: [ilds] Eagleton on Durrell >> >> >> >>On 5/30/2007 6:27 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >> >>>Moreover, the review itself is a trashing of Lawrence Durrell. It is a savage attack on the man and his life based on either willful misrepresentation or smug prejudice or both. For some, I guess, fame is both irresistible and a license to abandon fairness and decency. >>> >>Whatever the source of Eagleton's dark energy? I will put money on the >>zinc bar counter that the review was not about "Lawrence Durrell" nor >>about Ian MacNiven's biography. Mark me: there is a /tertium quid/. >>Hypothesis: Eagleton's nasty verve in taking down Durrell drew upon old >>memories, old anxieties. The "old Cambridge tutor" is the least of >>it. He was writing against someone else. >> >>Perhaps even against the Terry Eagleton who queened about with his copy >>of /Justine /and then regretted it? >> >>Still queening about with my copy-- >> >>CLS > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Wed May 30 17:44:25 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 01:44:25 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine In-Reply-To: <465E152E.5010405@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <14B2F386-0F10-11DC-9068-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> My attention has been brought to the following device, invented and patented by Dr Durrell, which, it is suggested, can be worn with advantage while reviewing books one has not read and when accepting money for the service not provided. Apparently several have already been installed at the Durrell School of Corfu whence issued the pronouncement by its director that 'Professional reviewers must skim other than the most notable titles otherwise they can't do the work they are paid for' -- the implication being that the official biography of Lawrence Durrell is not, in the eyes of the director of the DSC, a 'notable title'. I trust the DSC has the appropriate software. :Michael > Psychometric instruments and methods for mood analysis, > psychoeducation, mood health promotion, mood health maintenance and > mood disorder therapy > http://www.freshpatents.com/Psychometric-instruments-and-methods-for- > mood-analysis-psychoeducation-mood-health-promotion-mood-health- > maintenance-and-mood-disorder-therapy-dt20060706ptan20060147884.php > > > A system and method that allows a person to comprehensively and > non-verbally express their present, past and anticipated future > emotional responses regarding all aspects of their life including > relationships, work, study, memories and experiences. The system > relies on a method wherein the person can graphically represent their > mood state by depicting the proportion that each of a number of > primary moods contributes to the mood state for any nominated aspect > of their life. The system provides some guidance regarding healthy and > unhealthy mixes of these primary moods thereby allowing early > identification of vulnerable mood states which without intervention > may progress to mood disorders. In a clinical setting, the invention > may be valuable in monitoring treatment response, sub-typing mood > related diagnoses, measuring therapist-patient empathy, establishing > treatment goals and as a therapeutic tool in emotionally focussed > psychotherapy. The method can be performed using and electronic > device, such as a computer, running appropriate software. > > Patent Agent: Hutchison Law Group PLLC - Raleigh, NC, US > Patent Inventor: Anthony Durrell > Applicaton #: 20060147884 Class: 434236000 (USPTO) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2548 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070531/678915f5/attachment.bin From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Wed May 30 17:48:16 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 01:48:16 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Fwd: the L-shaped room Message-ID: <9E44DFE6-0F10-11DC-9068-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Sorry: TERRY Eagleton; I nominate Terry. I confused him with Tony, my wife's hairdresser, who gets paid only when he does his job. :Michael Begin forwarded message: > From: Michael Haag > Date: Thu May 31, 2007 1:14:33 am Europe/London > To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Subject: Re: [ilds] the L-shaped room > > I think the time has come to make public the generous offer of Dr > Anthony Durrell to have his asymmetrically coloured shoes granted as > an annual prize to the worthiest talk given at the Durrell School of > Corfu. I would like to nominate Tony Eagleton. I look forward to > Richard Pine seconding the nomination. > > :Michael > > > On Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 01:02 am, Bruce Redwine wrote: > >> Ah, "The Secret Sharer," of course -- and now we're back to doubles >> and doppelgangers. Le circle referme. Bring in the good doctor > >> again! >> >> Bruce >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: william godshalk >>> Sent: May 30, 2007 4:53 PM >>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>> Subject: [ilds] the L-shaped room >>> >>> Conrad's L shaped room is in "The Secret Sharer." A naval architect >>> took me that L shaped rooms go from rare to nonexistent on ships. My >>> first teacher of Conrad suggested that the L stands for Life. Does >>> the Summer Palace stand for Life? >>> >>> Bill >>> *************************************** >>> W. L. Godshalk * >>> Department of English * >>> University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >>> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >>> 513-281-5927 >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed May 30 18:11:44 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 21:11:44 -0400 Subject: [ilds] duel at sunrise In-Reply-To: <14B2F386-0F10-11DC-9068-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <465E152E.5010405@wfu.edu> <14B2F386-0F10-11DC-9068-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070531011206.GJWY26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> >I suggest that the ILDS sponsor a duel with one-shot pistols in the >courtyard of the fort on Corfu. To profit the Society I suggest that >we sell tickets at the gate. I'm not sure how much we should ask for >each ticket. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Wed May 30 18:44:25 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 19:44:25 -0600 Subject: [ilds] tunc and do androids In-Reply-To: <20070530231016.SLYT13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: Bill mentions: > Tunc was copyrighted in 1968 and Do Androids Dream > of Electric Sheep? was copyrighted in the same year. > Using my library and the Web, I can't tell which > was published first. Dick's biographer doesn't > mention Durrell. There were actually 3 'android' books with very similar notions behind them published that year, 1968: _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_, _Tunc_, and Mordecai Richler's _Cocksure_. The confluence speaks to the cultural moment, I believe. Richard Pine had a talk on Iain Banks' _The Business: A Novel_ at a DSC session that pointed to the continued influence of _The Revolt of Aphrodite_, which I think was persuasive. But, more to the point, the film "Bladerunner" is a very loose interpretation of _Do Androids_, within which I think Beatrice (and my slightly soggy self a while ago) rightly detect Durrell's influence in the emphasis on a semi-gnostic theme in the dark ending. But, much of that I believe comes from the _Nunquam_ volume. It's not surprising given the film's overt influence from Milton and a variety of other literary sources, but I should also add that (much like Durrell) there are variants. The first film version and the later director's cut simply are not the same film, including differences as grand as profoundly different endings, cut scenes that alter the entire subtext of the film, and the deletion or inclusion of a running voice-over throughout the entire production... I used the film in conjunction with Frankenstein a couple of years ago, and immediately twigged to the potential Durrelliana. I wrote that in my notebooks, but not much. When I thought of repeating it for a course this year, and then watched it on a soggy night, the material seemed to press more urgently for a Durrell influence or at least a confluence. Beatrice makes me realize I'm no the only person who noticed this, and I doubt either of us was the first -- who's finally going to write about it? There's a large-ish body of work on "Bladerunner" in academic works on film... Also, Phillip K. Dick has mentioned Durrell in an interview, but I can't recall where. So has the script writer, although there's a great deal of debate over his influence on the film considering it was altered after he'd written it and a variety of now-famously nefarious things went on. If those comments are actually something anyone would hunt for or consider working on, I can look them up, but I suspect you can "google" it (I love that new verb). It's somewhere on my hard drive too, but I know now where... Best, James From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 30 19:13:42 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 19:13:42 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] RG Justine Message-ID: <15860015.1180577622435.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Michael: I think Dr. Anthony Durrell has a good idea and remedy for mood disorders, but I also see a problem with medical liability. I think the doctor needs to revise the warning label. He needs to revise the directions below, so that children, academics, and other professionals do not overdose on the product or use it for purposes other than those specifically recommended. One can never be too careful about adjusting altered states. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Haag >Sent: May 30, 2007 5:44 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] RG Justine > >My attention has been brought to the following device, invented and >patented by Dr Durrell, which, it is suggested, can be worn with >advantage while reviewing books one has not read and when accepting >money for the service not provided. Apparently several have already >been installed at the Durrell School of Corfu whence issued the >pronouncement by its director that 'Professional reviewers must skim >other than the most notable titles otherwise they can't do the work >they are paid for' -- the implication being that the official biography >of Lawrence Durrell is not, in the eyes of the director of the DSC, a >'notable title'. I trust the DSC has the appropriate software. > >:Michael > > > >> Psychometric instruments and methods for mood analysis, >> psychoeducation, mood health promotion, mood health maintenance and >> mood disorder therapy >> http://www.freshpatents.com/Psychometric-instruments-and-methods-for- >> mood-analysis-psychoeducation-mood-health-promotion-mood-health- >> maintenance-and-mood-disorder-therapy-dt20060706ptan20060147884.php >> >> >> A system and method that allows a person to comprehensively and >> non-verbally express their present, past and anticipated future >> emotional responses regarding all aspects of their life including >> relationships, work, study, memories and experiences. The system >> relies on a method wherein the person can graphically represent their >> mood state by depicting the proportion that each of a number of >> primary moods contributes to the mood state for any nominated aspect >> of their life. The system provides some guidance regarding healthy and >> unhealthy mixes of these primary moods thereby allowing early >> identification of vulnerable mood states which without intervention >> may progress to mood disorders. In a clinical setting, the invention >> may be valuable in monitoring treatment response, sub-typing mood >> related diagnoses, measuring therapist-patient empathy, establishing >> treatment goals and as a therapeutic tool in emotionally focussed >> psychotherapy. The method can be performed using and electronic >> device, such as a computer, running appropriate software. >> >> Patent Agent: Hutchison Law Group PLLC - Raleigh, NC, US >> Patent Inventor: Anthony Durrell >> Applicaton #: 20060147884 Class: 434236000 (USPTO) From slighcl at wfu.edu Wed May 30 19:50:52 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 22:50:52 -0400 Subject: [ilds] "durrellian" In-Reply-To: <15860015.1180577622435.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <15860015.1180577622435.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <465E380C.9020504@wfu.edu> I had been thinking about the adjective 'Durrellian.' Some writers--even native Alexandrians!--are able to call it up in a positive way: > > > She is a classic Durrellian beauty, mysterious, melancholic. > > > But in the end, I suspect, my Durrellian angst will follow > me wherever I go. > > http://www.hsje.org/other_within.htm Other writers quite clearly use "Durrellian" to denote fault--preciosity & pretense & the stuff of the "textbook bohemian" (Eagleton's phrase). And I did not realize that the OED had caught up with all of these usages. But there you have it. *Oxford English Dictionary * *Durrellian, a.* * * *Of or pertaining to the English writer Lawrence Durrell (born 1912), or his style. Also Durrellesque a.* *1961 New Statesman 21 July 92/3* In the background there is that damned baroque sea, going through its daily transformations in a spray of Durrellian metaphors. *1961 Spectator 22 Dec. 922* The Durrellesque fantasy of a Coptic-Zionist alliance. *1966 Economist 17 Sept. 1152/3 *One or two of the portraits, notably that of the old Imam Ahmad of the Yemen, are almost Durrell-ian gems. *1970 Guardian 26 Mar. 11/6 *The usual Durrellian whirligig of allusions and illusions, quotes and echoes. -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/4a63bf8a/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Wed May 30 19:59:23 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 22:59:23 -0400 Subject: [ilds] THE BIOGRAPHY OF PLACE In-Reply-To: <15860015.1180577622435.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <15860015.1180577622435.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <465E3A0B.5030705@wfu.edu> *ARTEMIS COOPER TALK (26th September 2001)* http://biographersclub.co.uk/talks/cooper.shtml *THE BIOGRAPHY OF PLACE* Ladies and Gentlemen, I was mad to choose this subject, better suited to a PHd thesis. There are flaws in my argument, and by the end you may well say it has gone completely off the rails -- so I beg your indulgence in advance. Now. Have you noticed, or is it just me? If you say 'a biography of Gladstone', you've merely defined a certain sort of book which could be good, bad or indifferent. If you say 'a biography of London', however, it immediately sounds rather intriguing: the 'bio' bit sounds instantly more alive, like those yogurts that are supposed to be so good for you. But why call it that? Why not call it a history, social history, a guide book or a travel book? I think the answer lies in the fact that anything that might be described as a biography of a place approaches things from a different angle. By putting the city centre stage, the author can examine how the people passing through it have been affected by that city, and how the city has affected them. These are the two questions at the heart of any biography of place. So the book will be part history, part descriptive, part guide, and something more besides - for what happens, when you begin to think about the interaction of people and place, is that place begins to take on personality. It's like putting together one of those mosaic images which, on inspection, turn out to be made of millions of tiny photographs. Peter Ackroyd's book 'The Biography of London' deserves the definite article. The very scale of his work - 700 pages - is titanic. Still, it's not the sort of book that demands consecutive reading, because the chapters are short and can be dipped into at random. This could be very bitty, but it isn't for at least three reasons. First is the author's voice, which is clear with the authority of one who not only lives and breathes London, but has read almost every book on it that was ever written. Second, the book has ( and I would say this is an essential to any biography of place) a grounded quality. He has walked every inch of the city, and knows it well enough to devote chapters to its light, its fog, its noise. There are also there arc innumerable vignettes of the individual lives of Londoners - the miniature photographs, as it were, that make up the portrait. Most interesting of all is his conviction that London carries it's past in its stones. It's a very different approach to that of Christopher Hibbert, whose Biography of London (the first of four city biographies he was to write, incidentally) came out in 1969. In the foreword, Hibbert says that his book is 'intended as an introduction to the development of London and of the social life of its people.' So his description of the slums of St Giles, which were known as The Rookeries, is what one might expect. He describes the hideous gin-alleys, where 'the bodies of the incapably drunk could be seen lying where they had fallen, by day as by night, in Bethnal Green and Spittalfields.. .and particularly in St Giles.. .which Hogarth chose for the scene of his admonitory picture.' He then goes on to say that the Rookery was cleared in the 19* century, by driving New Oxford St straight through the worst of it -just as Victoria Street cut through 'acres of slums west of the Abbey towards Victoria Station.' Contrast this with Ackroyd on the same subject: 'The area around St Giles was, in the language of the period, a sore or abscess that might poison the whole body politic, with the unspoken assumption that it must be in some way purged or cauterised. So.. .a great thoroughfare known as New Oxford Street was run through it, leading to wholesale demolition of the worst lanes and courts with an attendant exodus of the poor inhabitants - although most of them moved only a few streets further south.. .It was a damp, dismal and 'noisome' place, to which few new residents could be attracted. And so its stands today. New Oxford Street is one of the least interesting thoroughfares in London, with no character except the dubious one of being dominated by the high rise block of Centrepoint. The building towers above the site of the old cage and gallows, and may perhaps be considered a fitting successor to them. It is an area now without character or purpose, the home of computer suppliers, an Argos superstore, some undistinguished office buildings... There are still vagrants lingering in the recesses of the area as a token of its past, but where there was once life and suffering there is now only a dismal quiet from which St Giles himself can offer no deliverance.' That line about Centrepoint, towering above the site of the old cage and gallows: he never actually says that perhaps that's why it's such a gloomy place, but what's implicit is that the past, even when destroyed, still has a subtle ability to mould and influence the present. Each biography of place will create a relationship with the past, and each has to be created afresh in the mind of the author - because towns and landscapes, and the societies that created them, grow beyond the span of one human life. However the writer creates that sense of the past, with it goes a sense of impermanence and flux. Everything is constantly shifting, whether it's a landscape or a village or a city, is another hallmark of biographies of place. It's deep in the bones of Flora Thompson's Lark Rise, a description of village life in the depths of Oxfordshire at the turn of the century. 'There had been a time, it appeared, when lace making was a regular industry in the hamlet. Queenie, in her childhood, had been 'brought up to the pillow', sitting among the women at eight years old and learning to fling her bobbins with the best of them... Now, of course, things were different. She didn't know what the world was coming to. This nasty machine-made stuff had killed the lace-making; the dealer had not been to the Fair for the last ten years... said they liked the Nottingham stuff better; it was wider and had more pattern to it! She still did a bit to keep her hand in. One or two old ladies still used it to trim their shifts, and it was handy to give as presents..but, as for living by it, those days were over.' Flora Thompson was acutely aware that those days were over: Lark Rise described the rural world of her childhood, and by the time it was published in 1939, she was in her sixties. She was describing a world on the brink of unimaginable change and upheaval, but - as the passage I've just quoted shows - she was also recording what had already passed, liven in the passages where she describes things that have scarcely altered in centuries, you can hear Time's Wing'ed Charriot not far off. 'Next came the rectory, so buried in orchards and shrubberies that only the chimney stacks were visible from the road; then the old Tudor farmhouse, with its mullioned windows and reputed dungeon. These, with the school and about a dozen cottages, made up the village. Even these few r buildings were strung out across the roadside, so few and far between and so sunken in greenery that there seemed no village at ail.' So far, I've talked about some of the characteristics of writing biographies of place. Now, to some of the problems - and these are largely to do with structure. If you write the biography of a person, you have an instantly identifiable line to follow: a person is born, lives, and dies - and no matter how much the author deviates or rearranges this basic chronology, it can't be ignored. The biography of a place gives far greater freedom. If you are writing about, Cairo, you can go anywhere in the city that interests you: the palace, the red light district, the city of the dead, the barracks, the slums - places you might never visit if you were there in person. So the material you collect, from hundreds of different sources, is radial rather than linear. The obvious solution to the problem of structure is that the material must be organised thematically, but that's not the whole answer. To come back to the analogy of the image made up of photographs: If your structure was purely thematic, you wouldn't have an image just a set of patches sorted into different colours, which isn't good enough. Only a time-line or a story will give you the drive that every book needs, and even when you've found one, you still have to pull your mass of material into shape. Structure is, without a doubt, the thorniest problem for anyone attempting this sort of writing. On the plus side, you will be able to evade the language of conventional biography, that slips so easily into old ruts: you'll never find yourself writing sentences like 'The following summer found Smith back with the Fothergills in the Lake District,' or 'The publication of Smith's memoirs in October proved the ideal opportunity for settling old scores'. One of the curious things I've discovered in thinking about the biography of place, is how often the most successful examples of this genre have been written by novelists. I've talked about Peter Ackroyd; but think too of Elizabeth Bowen's book Bowen 's Court, about her family's house in Ireland; or Penelope Lively, who has just brought out a book called The House Unlocked, the still centre of which is her grandmother's house in Somerset. Or, one of the best biographies of place ever written, EM Forster's History and Guide to Alexandria. This was published in Alexandria in 1922, before biography of place had been thought about, and in fact he hardly describes the modern city at all: that is merely a grid, a map, through which the reader can put himself in touch with the past. Lawrence Durrell described it as 'a small work of art, for it contains some of Forster's best prose, as well as felicities of touch such as only a novelist of major talent could command.' Not many biographies of place include a history of the mind that produced it; but this is what Forster does, cutting through what must be volumes of the driest theology to come up with passages like this: 'That old dilemma, that God ought at the same time to be far away and close at hand...[can only occur] to those who require God to be loving as well as powerful; and it is the weakness and the strength of Alexandria to have solved it by the conception of a link. Her weakness: because she had always to be shifting the link up and down - if she got it too near God it was too far from man, and vice versa. Her strength: because she did cling to the idea of Love; and much philosophical absurdity, much theological aridity, must be pardoned to those who maintain that the best thing on earth is likely to be the best in heaven.' Forster's Guide is not an easy book to get into; but, as Durrell observes, 'once the first sense of estrangement is over, the mind finds its surcease in the discovery of the dream-city of Alexandria which underpins, underlays the rather commonplace little Mediterranean seaport which it seems, to the uninitiated, to be.' Forster's book, and the poems of Constantine Cavafy, were to become the sources for Durrell's novel, the Alexandria Quartet. This is, I think we would all agree, a novel. I hope you would also agree that it is also one of those novels in which the setting is so essential to the action that it takes on the importance of a central character. And this book has done what novels do sometimes do - especially very successful ones that reach a wide audience and become classics: The Alexandria Quartet has grafted itself onto Alexandria, and irrevocably changed the way people think about it. I began to realise this when 1 lived in Alexandria doing VSO in the mid-1970s. The people I met were very hospitable and enjoyed showing me round the beaches, cafes, restaurants and sports clubs which they took to be the highlights of their city. And on these jaunts one of them was bound to say 'You see, it's nothing like Durrell's books, is it?' I soon worked out that this was a way of saying, 'it's not all sexual depravity and child brothels', but there was something else, too: a resentment that Durrell's novel had somehow pickled them all in that crumbling city he created, with its ghosts, its secrets, its suffocating history and seedy glamour. You have only to read the local guide-books, especially the French ones, to see how much sub-Durrellian prose there is still sloshing about. This, I realise, has taken us rather a long way from the biography of place; but in so far as the biography of place is inevitably selective and subjective, novels like this do form part of the equation. Ackroyd describes 'Bleak House' as 'a symbolic restatement of London vision', and in the same manner, that novel has shaped the way we see London - particularly that opening sequence with the fog of London hanging low over the Thames, seeping into the crannies of the Inns of Chancery, and round the great mountains of paper that make up the case of Jarndyce v. Jarndyce. No biography of London would be complete without several references to Dickens in the index, nor would a biography of Alexandria be complete without mentioning Lawrence Durrell. So am I trying to say that biographies of place should be written by novelists? No, I would not dream of supporting such a heresy in this company. But I would suggest that this sort of biography requires some of the skills of a novelist. It requires a touch that is not too obsessed with accuracy, and not afraid to impose a creative imagination on the tangible and factual. As Plotinus once remarked, 'to any vision must be brought an eye adapted to what is to be seen.' the biographers club ? copyright 2005 -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070530/181e8128/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 30 20:34:54 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:34:54 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] THE BIOGRAPHY OF PLACE Message-ID: <1056736.1180582494717.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Charles, I can think of one recent book of Alexandria that fails to mentions Durrell -- Andre Aciman's Out of Egypt (1994). We have allusions to Proust and Cavafy, but no Durrell. I took the deletion as a deliberate slight. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: slighcl >Sent: May 30, 2007 7:59 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] THE BIOGRAPHY OF PLACE > > >No biography of London would be complete without several references to >Dickens in the index, nor would a biography of Alexandria be complete >without mentioning Lawrence Durrell. > >So am I trying to say that biographies of place should be written by >novelists? No, I would not dream of supporting such a heresy in this >company. But I would suggest that this sort of biography requires some >of the skills of a novelist. It requires a touch that is not too >obsessed with accuracy, and not afraid to impose a creative imagination >on the tangible and factual. As Plotinus once remarked, 'to any vision >must be brought an eye adapted to what is to be seen.' > >********************** >Charles L. Sligh >Department of English >Wake Forest University >slighcl at wfu.edu >********************** > From durrells at otenet.gr Wed May 30 22:59:29 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 08:59:29 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear References: <01da01c7a2e3$ca38bb60$0100000a@DSC01> <465DF184.6090609@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: <001801c7a348$da8301a0$0100000a@DSC01> Jokes obviously miss fire on this group.RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Piel" To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 12:49 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear > His name was never "johnny" but "Jules". This > should be particularly important for the americans > amongst you because one of his achievements was > translating Walt Whitman. Great Poet and important > figure of american literature. (Which cannot be > said of some of these posts). > Marc Piel > > Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > >> Does this mean that in some editions of the Quartet there's a >> poet-soldier called Johnny Laforgue? >> RP >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Michael Haag >> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:00 PM >> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear >> >> I forget in which volume or when, but at one point Durrell gave an >> instruction to Faber that all references to Keats should be altered >> to Laforgue. So much for French symbolism. >> >> :Michael >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 04:48 pm, slighcl wrote: >> >> On 5/30/2007 11:29 AM, James Gifford wrote: >> >> >> I think this may be justifiably called a trend. The references >> to Blake in >> _Balthazar_ were initially to Keats, yet having a character by >> the same name >> was apparently too confusing to manage. My hunch, given Durrell's >> frequently plays on Shax (ahem...), is that the MacBeth >> reference was just >> too obvious, so some fiddling was necessary. I'd argue that any >> reference >> to Shakespeare (in particular) is a reference to the oeuvre in >> general, >> which may or may not specifically align with the play mentioned >> or alluded >> to. Of course, just what Shax meant for Durrell I can't say, but >> I can >> imagine far more than one erudite article on the topic... I'm >> dabbling on >> some things for _Prospero's Cell_, but nothing I plan to really >> get into any >> time soon. >> >> Thanks, Jamie, and good to hear from you in your travels. >> Bill--Darley tells us that "a brilliant yellow patch on the dune >> showed up the cover of a pocket King Lear" (3.1). You are a >> bibliographer and a collector. Does that "yellow patch" spring >> from anything other than Durrell's imagination? What pocket >> edition in yellow boards or covers could Darley/Durrell be >> recalling? >> >> "Beloved Elizas"! Alan G. Thomas would tell us how much it cost >> to post this to LD if we could still catch him. >> >> I have just been listening to a wonderful interview that Durrell >> did with the CBC (1968) in which he declares that he is "a spare >> parts man"--taking bits and pieces from reality and remaking >> them as his own. (For a transcript, see Ingersoll 100.) >> >> Charles >> >> -- >> ********************** >> Charles L. Sligh >> Department of English >> Wake Forest University >> slighcl at wfu.edu >> ********************** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> >> >> __________ NOD32 2298 (20070530) Information __________ >> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2300 (20070531) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From durrells at otenet.gr Wed May 30 23:05:09 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:05:09 +0300 Subject: [ilds] "many fictions"/"many negatives" References: <26819930.1180566475306.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002301c7a349$a4bf9eb0$0100000a@DSC01> "It must be made clear that these are not 'characters': a character is an integer in a temporal series: whereas these are personalities embodied by reminiscence: the biological structure of a continuum. Space is my concern, not matter: so these men and women are not substance but the figment of substance seen in a mirror: I judge them not as man but as part of the scenery". LD, Corfu, 1938, in a notebook for 'The English Book of the Dead'. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Redwine" To: ; Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:07 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] "many fictions"/"many negatives" > Jamie, yes, that especially includes Blake and Shakespeare. I'm beginning > to think all of Durrell's characters are fictional, even the ones based on > "real" people. He did what Charles talked about earlier today -- he took > "spare parts" of things and reassembled them to his own choosing. I > include people here. Not at all surprising, most writers probably do > this. That's a great quote Charles found from the Ingersoll book of > collected conversations, where Durrell says, "I'm a spare parts man" > (Lawrence Durrell: Conversations, 1998, p. 100). Thanks for trying to > dig up my "many fictions of ourselves," but my memory failed me again. I > actually had in mind, "I now move / Through the many negatives to what I > am" ("Alexandria," ll. 8-9). "Negatives" could mean feminine "negative > selves," maybe in the sense of Jungian animae, but I also take it to mean > "photographic negatives," alternate selves. Interesting how the two > meanings complement one another. > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- >>From: James Gifford >>Sent: May 30, 2007 10:25 AM >>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>Subject: Re: [ilds] Arnauti as real >> >>Bruce wrote: >> >>> At the time of my primal event with M. Durrell (not Dr. >>> Durrell), age sixteen of my youth, I never thought any >>> "person" in his book was real. They were all fictional >>> characters. >> >>Does that include William Blake and Shakespeare? I'm not being >>aggressive, >>just trying to follow up on Charles' intentions (which I fallaciously >>assume >>I can know). Personally, just when I think I've learned how to spot >>Durrell's creation of a 'ghost,' I discover he's talking about someone >>'real.' >> >>> The "many fictions of ourselves," or some such (Jamie >>> can provide the proper quotation and citation to the poetry) >> >>I think you mean the "Our view of reality is based on selected fictions" >>from the Quartet, or perhaps from "In Rhodes" (and that "in" must imply >>the >>city rather than the island, which appear below here, perhaps even on Odos >>Fanourios): >> >> Naturally one must smile to see him powerless >> Not in the face of these small fictions >> But in the greater one they nourished >> By exhaustion of the surfaces of life, >> Leaving the True Way, so that suddenly >> We no longer haunted the streets >> Of our native city, guilty as a popular singer, >> Clad in the fur of some wild animal. >> >>Strikes me that this is a wonderful way of implying the "fictions of >>ourselves" or other notions of identity while also responding to his own >>vision of Cavafy in the Quartet, although this poem came out at least in >>1948. Charles, any idea when that first notebook translation of Cavafy's >>"The City" was penned? >> >>--Jamie > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2300 (20070531) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From durrells at otenet.gr Wed May 30 23:07:41 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:07:41 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear References: <01da01c7a2e3$ca38bb60$0100000a@DSC01> <20070530233748.GFDC9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <003f01c7a349$ff3ebbf0$0100000a@DSC01> Someone said he was a ponce, and it wasn't me. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "william godshalk" To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:37 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear > Was Keats a soldier? Isn't he a reporter and photographer? > > Bill > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2300 (20070531) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From durrells at otenet.gr Wed May 30 23:09:33 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:09:33 +0300 Subject: [ilds] the L-shaped room References: Message-ID: <005601c7a34a$41f4ad10$0100000a@DSC01> Who is this Tony Eagleton? Is he a ponce? RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Haag" To: "Bruce Redwine" ; Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:14 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] the L-shaped room >I think the time has come to make public the generous offer of Dr > Anthony Durrell to have his asymmetrically coloured shoes granted as an > annual prize to the worthiest talk given at the Durrell School of > Corfu. I would like to nominate Tony Eagleton. I look forward to > Richard Pine seconding the nomination. > > :Michael > > > On Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 01:02 am, Bruce Redwine wrote: > >> Ah, "The Secret Sharer," of course -- and now we're back to doubles >> and doppelgangers. Le circle referme. Bring in the good doctor > again! >> >> Bruce >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: william godshalk >>> Sent: May 30, 2007 4:53 PM >>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>> Subject: [ilds] the L-shaped room >>> >>> Conrad's L shaped room is in "The Secret Sharer." A naval architect >>> took me that L shaped rooms go from rare to nonexistent on ships. My >>> first teacher of Conrad suggested that the L stands for Life. Does >>> the Summer Palace stand for Life? >>> >>> Bill >>> *************************************** >>> W. L. Godshalk * >>> Department of English * >>> University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >>> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >>> 513-281-5927 >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2300 (20070531) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From durrells at otenet.gr Wed May 30 23:10:43 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:10:43 +0300 Subject: [ilds] what do androids dream of doing with electric sheep? References: <465E1343.9030600@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <006501c7a34a$6bc330d0$0100000a@DSC01> Harold Bloom told me that the ' Ballad of the Good Lord Nelson' was one of his favourite poems , to be recited in depression. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: slighcl To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:13 AM Subject: [ilds] what do androids dream of doing with electric sheep? On 5/30/2007 7:46 PM, Michael Haag wrote: When Adam deconstructed and Eve shrank, Who was then the ripest crank?The first Great Lord in our English land To honour the Freudian command, For a cast in the bush is worth two in the hand Aboard the Victory, Victory O. As caroled roundly by James Gifford, Wednesday, 28 June 2006, 9:17 PM, McMorran's Beach House, Cordova Bay, BC. -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** __________ NOD32 2300 (20070531) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2300 (20070531) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070531/d38fc1d0/attachment.html From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Thu May 31 06:24:29 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:24:29 +0200 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear In-Reply-To: <001801c7a348$da8301a0$0100000a@DSC01> References: <01da01c7a2e3$ca38bb60$0100000a@DSC01> <465DF184.6090609@interdesign.fr> <001801c7a348$da8301a0$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <465ECC8D.3040008@interdesign.fr> Yes I guess it was a "joke" when you said LD stole considerably (a lot) but refused to quantify your accusation!? Marc Piel Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > Jokes obviously miss fire on this group.RP > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marc Piel" > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 12:49 AM > Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear > > > >>His name was never "johnny" but "Jules". This >>should be particularly important for the americans >>amongst you because one of his achievements was >>translating Walt Whitman. Great Poet and important >>figure of american literature. (Which cannot be >>said of some of these posts). >>Marc Piel >> >>Durrell School of Corfu wrote: >> >> >>>Does this mean that in some editions of the Quartet there's a >>>poet-soldier called Johnny Laforgue? >>>RP >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Michael Haag >>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:00 PM >>> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear >>> >>> I forget in which volume or when, but at one point Durrell gave an >>> instruction to Faber that all references to Keats should be altered >>> to Laforgue. So much for French symbolism. >>> >>> :Michael >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 04:48 pm, slighcl wrote: >>> >>> On 5/30/2007 11:29 AM, James Gifford wrote: >>> >>> >>> I think this may be justifiably called a trend. The references >>> to Blake in >>> _Balthazar_ were initially to Keats, yet having a character by >>> the same name >>> was apparently too confusing to manage. My hunch, given Durrell's >>> frequently plays on Shax (ahem...), is that the MacBeth >>> reference was just >>> too obvious, so some fiddling was necessary. I'd argue that any >>> reference >>> to Shakespeare (in particular) is a reference to the oeuvre in >>> general, >>> which may or may not specifically align with the play mentioned >>> or alluded >>> to. Of course, just what Shax meant for Durrell I can't say, but >>> I can >>> imagine far more than one erudite article on the topic... I'm >>> dabbling on >>> some things for _Prospero's Cell_, but nothing I plan to really >>> get into any >>> time soon. >>> >>> Thanks, Jamie, and good to hear from you in your travels. >>> Bill--Darley tells us that "a brilliant yellow patch on the dune >>> showed up the cover of a pocket King Lear" (3.1). You are a >>> bibliographer and a collector. Does that "yellow patch" spring >>> from anything other than Durrell's imagination? What pocket >>> edition in yellow boards or covers could Darley/Durrell be >>> recalling? >>> >>> "Beloved Elizas"! Alan G. Thomas would tell us how much it cost >>> to post this to LD if we could still catch him. >>> >>> I have just been listening to a wonderful interview that Durrell >>> did with the CBC (1968) in which he declares that he is "a spare >>> parts man"--taking bits and pieces from reality and remaking >>> them as his own. (For a transcript, see Ingersoll 100.) >>> >>> Charles >>> >>> -- >>> ********************** >>> Charles L. Sligh >>> Department of English >>> Wake Forest University >>> slighcl at wfu.edu >>> ********************** >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ILDS mailing list >>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ILDS mailing list >>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ NOD32 2298 (20070530) Information __________ >>> >>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>ILDS mailing list >>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >>_______________________________________________ >>ILDS mailing list >>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> >>__________ NOD32 2300 (20070531) Information __________ >> >>This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >>http://www.eset.com >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > From slighcl at wfu.edu Thu May 31 06:41:56 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:41:56 -0400 Subject: [ilds] BALLAD OF THE GOOD LORD NELSON In-Reply-To: <006501c7a34a$6bc330d0$0100000a@DSC01> References: <465E1343.9030600@wfu.edu> <006501c7a34a$6bc330d0$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <465ED0A4.8000802@wfu.edu> On 5/31/2007 2:10 AM, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > Harold Bloom told me that the ' Ballad of the Good Lord Nelson' was > one of his favourite poems , to be recited in depression. RP That is classic Bloom. A reading through /Falstaff /as much as /Freud/. And a good and merry rejoinder to Durrell's ballad. "Turning like the hour-glass in his lonely bunk" 1943. Is this a war poem? Perhaps it is rather more post-coital than post-colonial. The approach would tell us much. Back to my "various rigs." *** Durrell, Lawrence: A BALLAD OF THE GOOD LORD NELSON [from /Collected Poems: 1931-1974/ (1985), Faber and Faber] The Good Lord Nelson had a swollen gland, Little of the scripture did he understand Till a woman led him to the promised land Aboard the Victory, Victory O. Adam and Evil and a bushel of figs Meant nothing to Nelson who was keeping pigs, Till a woman showed him the various rigs Aboard the Victory, Victory O. His heart was softer than a new laid egg, Too poor for loving and ashamed to beg, Till Nelson was taken by the Dancing Leg Aboard the Victory, Victory O. Now he up and did up his little tin trunk And he took to the ocean on his English junk, Turning like the hour-glass in his lonely bunk Aboard the Victory, Victory O. The Frenchman saw him a-coming there With the one-piece eye and the valentine hair, With the safety-pin sleeve and occupied air Aboard the Victory, Victory O. Now you all remember the message he sent As an answer to Hamilton's discontent--- There were questions asked about it in Parliament Aboard the Victory, Victory O. Now the blacker the berry, the thicker comes the juice. Think of Good Lord Nelson and avoid self-abuse, For the empty sleeve was no mere excuse Aboard the Victory, Victory O. 'England Expects' was the motto he gave When he thought of little Emma out on Biscay's wave, And remembered working on her like a galley-slave Aboard the Victory, Victory O. [Page 114 ] The first Great Lord in our English land To honour the Freudian command, For a cast in the bush is worth two in the hand Aboard the Victory, Victory O. Now the Frenchman shot him there as he stood In the rage of battle in a silk-lined hood And he heard the whistle of his own hot blood Aboard the Victory, Victory O. Now stiff on a pillar with a phallic air Nelson stylites in Trafalgar Square Reminds the British what once they were Aboard the Victory, Victory O. If they'd treat their women in the Nelson way There'd be fewer frigid husbands every day And many more heroes on the Bay of Biscay Aboard the Victory, Victory O. 1943/1943 -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070531/6474e92a/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu May 31 06:52:19 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 06:52:19 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Harold Bloom Message-ID: <24277055.1180619540221.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Yes, Harold Bloom holds Durrell in high regard. He ranks the Quartet among the greats in his book, the Western Canon, and he opens his study of Gnosticism, Omens of the Millennium, with a quotation from Monsieur. So he's an example of one prestigious academic who appreciates LD. I like Bloom; he's a great critic. Now others can disagree. Bloom would be a great "catch" for Pine's Corfu seminars. Bruce From: Durrell School of Corfu >Sent: May 30, 2007 11:10 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] what do androids dream of doing with electric sheep? > >Harold Bloom told me that the ' Ballad of the Good Lord Nelson' was one of his favourite poems , to be recited in depression. RP > ----- Original Message ----- > From: slighcl > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:13 AM > Subject: [ilds] what do androids dream of doing with electric sheep? > > > On 5/30/2007 7:46 PM, Michael Haag wrote: >When Adam deconstructed and Eve shrank, >Who was then the ripest crank?The first Great Lord in our English land > To honour the Freudian command, > For a cast in the bush is worth two in the hand > Aboard the Victory, Victory O. > As caroled roundly by James Gifford, Wednesday, 28 June 2006, 9:17 PM, McMorran's Beach House, Cordova Bay, BC. > From durrells at otenet.gr Thu May 31 06:47:20 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 16:47:20 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear References: <01da01c7a2e3$ca38bb60$0100000a@DSC01> <465DF184.6090609@interdesign.fr><001801c7a348$da8301a0$0100000a@DSC01> <465ECC8D.3040008@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: <00b201c7a38a$3615c840$0100000a@DSC01> You are confusing me with someone else - I never said LD 'stole'. Several others in this group have said so, as I recall. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Piel" To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear > Yes I guess it was a "joke" when you said LD stole > considerably (a lot) but refused to quantify your > accusation!? > Marc Piel > > Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > >> Jokes obviously miss fire on this group.RP >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Marc Piel" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 12:49 AM >> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear >> >> >> >>>His name was never "johnny" but "Jules". This >>>should be particularly important for the americans >>>amongst you because one of his achievements was >>>translating Walt Whitman. Great Poet and important >>>figure of american literature. (Which cannot be >>>said of some of these posts). >>>Marc Piel >>> >>>Durrell School of Corfu wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Does this mean that in some editions of the Quartet there's a >>>>poet-soldier called Johnny Laforgue? >>>>RP >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Michael Haag >>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:00 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear >>>> >>>> I forget in which volume or when, but at one point Durrell gave an >>>> instruction to Faber that all references to Keats should be altered >>>> to Laforgue. So much for French symbolism. >>>> >>>> :Michael >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 04:48 pm, slighcl wrote: >>>> >>>> On 5/30/2007 11:29 AM, James Gifford wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> I think this may be justifiably called a trend. The references >>>> to Blake in >>>> _Balthazar_ were initially to Keats, yet having a character by >>>> the same name >>>> was apparently too confusing to manage. My hunch, given >>>> Durrell's >>>> frequently plays on Shax (ahem...), is that the MacBeth >>>> reference was just >>>> too obvious, so some fiddling was necessary. I'd argue that any >>>> reference >>>> to Shakespeare (in particular) is a reference to the oeuvre in >>>> general, >>>> which may or may not specifically align with the play mentioned >>>> or alluded >>>> to. Of course, just what Shax meant for Durrell I can't say, but >>>> I can >>>> imagine far more than one erudite article on the topic... I'm >>>> dabbling on >>>> some things for _Prospero's Cell_, but nothing I plan to really >>>> get into any >>>> time soon. >>>> >>>> Thanks, Jamie, and good to hear from you in your travels. >>>> Bill--Darley tells us that "a brilliant yellow patch on the dune >>>> showed up the cover of a pocket King Lear" (3.1). You are a >>>> bibliographer and a collector. Does that "yellow patch" spring >>>> from anything other than Durrell's imagination? What pocket >>>> edition in yellow boards or covers could Darley/Durrell be >>>> recalling? >>>> >>>> "Beloved Elizas"! Alan G. Thomas would tell us how much it cost >>>> to post this to LD if we could still catch him. >>>> >>>> I have just been listening to a wonderful interview that Durrell >>>> did with the CBC (1968) in which he declares that he is "a spare >>>> parts man"--taking bits and pieces from reality and remaking >>>> them as his own. (For a transcript, see Ingersoll 100.) >>>> >>>> Charles >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ********************** >>>> Charles L. Sligh >>>> Department of English >>>> Wake Forest University >>>> slighcl at wfu.edu >>>> ********************** >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ILDS mailing list >>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ILDS mailing list >>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ NOD32 2298 (20070530) Information __________ >>>> >>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>ILDS mailing list >>>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>ILDS mailing list >>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>> >>> >>>__________ NOD32 2300 (20070531) Information __________ >>> >>>This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >>>http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2301 (20070531) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu May 31 07:03:54 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 07:03:54 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear Message-ID: <14430625.1180620234967.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I said John Keats of Moorfields was a ponce and, with a little help from Charles, Lord Byron confirmed it. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Durrell School of Corfu >Sent: May 30, 2007 11:07 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear > >Someone said he was a ponce, and it wasn't me. RP >----- Original Message ----- >From: "william godshalk" >To: >Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:37 AM >Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear > > >> Was Keats a soldier? Isn't he a reporter and photographer? >> >> Bill >> From durrells at otenet.gr Thu May 31 07:11:38 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 17:11:38 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Harold Bloom References: <24277055.1180619540221.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00d801c7a38d$9ac90510$0100000a@DSC01> Bloom agreed to come to one of our earliest seminars, but ill-health that year caused him to cancel all engagements, and I believe that he still suffers from travelphobia. Tant pis! RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Redwine" To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] Harold Bloom > > Yes, Harold Bloom holds Durrell in high regard. He ranks the Quartet > among the greats in his book, the Western Canon, and he opens his study of > Gnosticism, Omens of the Millennium, with a quotation from Monsieur. So > he's an example of one prestigious academic who appreciates LD. I like > Bloom; he's a great critic. Now others can disagree. Bloom would be a > great "catch" for Pine's Corfu seminars. > > Bruce > > From: Durrell School of Corfu >>Sent: May 30, 2007 11:10 PM >>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>Subject: Re: [ilds] what do androids dream of doing with electric sheep? >> >>Harold Bloom told me that the ' Ballad of the Good Lord Nelson' was one of >>his favourite poems , to be recited in depression. RP >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: slighcl >> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:13 AM >> Subject: [ilds] what do androids dream of doing with electric sheep? >> >> >> On 5/30/2007 7:46 PM, Michael Haag wrote: >>When Adam deconstructed and Eve shrank, >>Who was then the ripest crank?The first Great Lord in our English land >> To honour the Freudian command, >> For a cast in the bush is worth two in the hand >> Aboard the Victory, Victory O. >> As caroled roundly by James Gifford, Wednesday, 28 June 2006, 9:17 PM, >> McMorran's Beach House, Cordova Bay, BC. >> > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2301 (20070531) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu May 31 07:17:25 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 07:17:25 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] God Is a Humourist Message-ID: <29149890.1180621045902.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Especially those that misfire. How many volumes are there in God Is a Humourist? the Hatter asks. Shall we have a tea party? Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Durrell School of Corfu >Sent: May 30, 2007 10:59 PM >To: marcpiel at interdesign.fr, ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear > >Jokes obviously miss fire on this group.RP >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Marc Piel" >To: >Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 12:49 AM >Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear > > >> His name was never "johnny" but "Jules". This >> should be particularly important for the americans >> amongst you because one of his achievements was >> translating Walt Whitman. Great Poet and important >> figure of american literature. (Which cannot be >> said of some of these posts). >> Marc Piel >> >> Durrell School of Corfu wrote: >> >>> Does this mean that in some editions of the Quartet there's a >>> poet-soldier called Johnny Laforgue? >>> RP From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu May 31 09:01:21 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:01:21 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Notebooks Message-ID: <16564615.1180627281608.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Does any scholar out there have plans to publish Durrell's many notebooks? That would seem a very worthy enterprise, although finding a publisher undoubtedly difficult. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Durrell School of Corfu >Sent: May 30, 2007 11:05 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] "many fictions"/"many negatives" > >"It must be made clear that these are not 'characters': a character is an >integer in a temporal series: whereas these are personalities embodied by >reminiscence: the biological structure of a continuum. Space is my concern, >not matter: so these men and women are not substance but the figment of >substance seen in a mirror: I judge them not as man but as part of the >scenery". LD, Corfu, 1938, in a notebook for 'The English Book of the Dead'. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bruce Redwine" >To: ; >Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:07 AM >Subject: Re: [ilds] "many fictions"/"many negatives" > > >> Jamie, yes, that especially includes Blake and Shakespeare. I'm beginning >> to think all of Durrell's characters are fictional, even the ones based on >> "real" people. He did what Charles talked about earlier today -- he took >> "spare parts" of things and reassembled them to his own choosing. I >> include people here. Not at all surprising, most writers probably do >> this. That's a great quote Charles found from the Ingersoll book of >> collected conversations, where Durrell says, "I'm a spare parts man" >> (Lawrence Durrell: Conversations, 1998, p. 100). Thanks for trying to >> dig up my "many fictions of ourselves," but my memory failed me again. I >> actually had in mind, "I now move / Through the many negatives to what I >> am" ("Alexandria," ll. 8-9). "Negatives" could mean feminine "negative >> selves," maybe in the sense of Jungian animae, but I also take it to mean >> "photographic negatives," alternate selves. Interesting how the two >> meanings complement one another. >> >> Bruce >> From slighcl at wfu.edu Thu May 31 09:16:46 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:16:46 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Notebooks In-Reply-To: <16564615.1180627281608.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <16564615.1180627281608.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <465EF4EE.4030702@wfu.edu> On 5/31/2007 12:01 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >Does any scholar out there have plans to publish Durrell's many notebooks? That would seem a very worthy enterprise, although finding a publisher undoubtedly difficult. > My work right now centers upon the notebooks and typescripts for the /Quartet/, Bruce. I am currently digitizing the whole span of the /Quartet /materials for my own research, and yes indeed--/D.E.V./ (/Durrell Estate Willing/)--someday I will want to bring out the notebooks in a facsimile edition. James Gifford has worked closely with the /Quintet /materials, and if I may speak for us both it is something a vision for us someday to bring out all of Durrell's working materials. As you say, a worthy enterprise. Print publishers will increasingly be dropping such projects--that is a definite trend, not a prediction. It simply costs too much, and libraries, as we have discussed here, are more and more unwilling to pay. In many ways digital editions offer more accessibility and better reproduction, but yes a book edition might also be undertaken with sufficient financial backing. I hope to have the good news for you one day, Bruce. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070531/d43c1ebc/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu May 31 10:02:27 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 10:02:27 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism Message-ID: <27808292.1180630947808.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> James, I've only seen one example of Durrell's plagiarism -- the one Michael Haag pointed out in Caesar's Vast Ghost. That I find blatant and inexcusable, and, if that is typical of Durrell's method in this regard, then I'm greatly saddened. It's simply wrong, and I don't buy any arguments about textuality and intertextuality and the like. I'm told there are other examples in other works, presumably the travel literature, and it would be interesting to see someone make a serious study of the evidence and draw some conclusions. Didn't someone say Bill was working on this? I'd like to see what he comes up with. I acknowledge that the problem is complicated, but I think if a writer is borrowing verbatim or almost so from another writer, then he ought to make the reader aware of that in some way. And there are many ways to do that. As I told Michael, Durrell could have brought in the real or a fictional "Michael Haag" and had him deliver his own lines. Gary Synder in "Myths & Texts" does something like that when he introduces the real John Muir, the naturalist and explorer, into his long poem and then quotes almost verbatim from one of Muir's books or notebooks -- without quotation marks. That bothers me, but at least Synder make an effort at attribution. Ezra Pound (whom I like) probably started this whole craze with his shenanigans. I don't think Durrell did any lifting in his poetry, though. And that is telling -- he found poetry too sacred to try and get away with any funny stuff. Bruce > >For Durrell, I think there's a combination. It's expedient in fiction to >lift a set piece or historical background (the ethics of it aside), but >given Durrell's extreme awareness of textuality, what textual scholars do, >and his anticipations of being read that way (his UNESCO lectures on >Shakespeare, to my mind, make that clear), I don't think he assumed his >audience wouldn't find out. That's also part of the game. > >For instance, Michael, do you think Durrell knew you'd read _Caesar's Vast >Ghost_? Given your interactions with him over Forster and the >Durrell-Miller letters, I think he'd be reasonably sure of that. The two >pages worked in a journeyman fashion, but they also send scholars to your >footnotes to Forster, which leads to Durrell's "Introduction," which leads >to Durrell's own borrowings from Forster for the Quartet, which leads to... > >I think that allusive function (though not strictly speaking an allusion) >was a part of the very genuine aesthetic appeal. Durrell did not write >books that exist apart from other books -- even _The Black Book_ is very >heavily indebted to Oscar Wilde and Djuna Barnes, though Durrell only >acknowledges Henry Miller, who I do not think was a particularly profound >influence at all... Even in Miller's marginal notes, he marks passages that >seem "Miller-esque" but are actually in relation to T.S. Eliot. > >Does that leave you more or less disappointed, Bruce? > >That's my two cents... > >Best, >James > > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From godshawl at email.uc.edu Thu May 31 10:09:31 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 13:09:31 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Notebooks In-Reply-To: <465EF4EE.4030702@wfu.edu> References: <16564615.1180627281608.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <465EF4EE.4030702@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070531170932.KNCE26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070531/6c1d9f71/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Thu May 31 10:23:05 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 13:23:05 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism In-Reply-To: <27808292.1180630947808.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa. earthlink.net> References: <27808292.1180630947808.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070531172316.KPRI26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070531/39570bb8/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Thu May 31 10:25:58 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 13:25:58 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Harold Bloom In-Reply-To: <00d801c7a38d$9ac90510$0100000a@DSC01> References: <24277055.1180619540221.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <00d801c7a38d$9ac90510$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070531172558.LEON9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> At 10:11 AM 5/31/2007, you wrote: >Bloom agreed to come to one of our earliest seminars, but ill-health that >year caused him to cancel all engagements, and I believe that he still >suffers from travelphobia. Tant pis! Lucky old you. *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Thu May 31 10:28:10 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 13:28:10 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 3.1 Pursewarden and King Lear In-Reply-To: <00b201c7a38a$3615c840$0100000a@DSC01> References: <01da01c7a2e3$ca38bb60$0100000a@DSC01> <465DF184.6090609@interdesign.fr> <001801c7a348$da8301a0$0100000a@DSC01> <465ECC8D.3040008@interdesign.fr> <00b201c7a38a$3615c840$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070531172821.LFAK9640.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070531/483f4f19/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Thu May 31 10:34:52 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 18:34:52 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism In-Reply-To: <27808292.1180630947808.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D4D6B93-0F9D-11DC-8785-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> I was not going to raise this because of my personal involvement, but James' defence of Durrell's plagiarism as outlined below is yet another example of 'the academy's' willingness to think up idiotic rationalisations instead of arriving at a principled position. The principle may be that it is OK to steal texts, in which case they can start by stealing each other's PhD dissertations, and allow their students to steal their term papers from the internet. Or they can say only 'great writers' are entitled to steal, in which case they had better start defining who those people are and how far their licence runs. That is not the law, however, which unlike the academy takes a firm and straightforward view on what is right and wrong. I could easily use James' argument below to explain that I had broken into his home, stolen his belongings, but that it was perfectly all right as he would have known, or at some point was likely to find out, that I had done so. As I have said before, I was flattered to have had two pages stolen by Durrell for use in his book, and so personally I have let it pass. But it is not a practice that is defensible. I would not get very far if I stole two pages of Justine and published it as my own work. Durrell has done this quite a lot. I had not known about the Prospero's Cell plagiarism until Richard Pine brought it to our attention. I will be looking into that thoroughly now. I have spotted quite a bit of close lifting if not outright plagiarism in Justine and other volumes of the Quartet, taken from sources like Robin Fedden's contributions to the Personal Landscape anthology, and from Leeder's study of the Copts, Modern Sons of the Pharaohs. In fact it is pretty funny, because Manzaloui in his 'Curate's Egg: An Alexandrian Opinion of Durrell's Quartet' attacked Durrell for his supposedly faulty understanding of this and that, and it turns out that the fault lies largely in the material Durrell lifted from supposedly reputable sources -- this is what Bill demonstrated in his article 'Some Sources of Durrell's AQ' (these and others can be found in Critical Essays on Lawrence Durrell, ed Alan Warren Friedman, Boston 1987). It is astounding how little 'the academy' troubles to examine source material in the case of Durrell, how its theorising is based almost entirely on principles of careless free association, self indulgence, or ideological mongering, unrestrained by reference to evidence, context, biography or the other usual constraints. There is plenty of work to be done. :Michael On Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 06:02 pm, Bruce Redwine wrote: > James, I've only seen one example of Durrell's plagiarism -- the one > Michael Haag pointed out in Caesar's Vast Ghost. That I find blatant > and inexcusable, and, if that is typical of Durrell's method in this > regard, then I'm greatly saddened. It's simply wrong, and I don't buy > any arguments about textuality and intertextuality and the like. I'm > told there are other examples in other works, presumably the travel > literature, and it would be interesting to see someone make a serious > study of the evidence and draw some conclusions. Didn't someone say > Bill was working on this? I'd like to see what he comes up with. I > acknowledge that the problem is complicated, but I think if a writer > is borrowing verbatim or almost so from another writer, then he ought > to make the reader aware of that in some way. And there are many ways > to do that. As I told Michael, Durrell could have brought in the real > or a fictional "Michael Haag" and had him deliver his own lines. Gary > Synder in "M! > yths & Texts" does something like that when he introduces the real > John Muir, the naturalist and explorer, into his long poem and then > quotes almost verbatim from one of Muir's books or notebooks -- > without quotation marks. That bothers me, but at least Synder make an > effort at attribution. Ezra Pound (whom I like) probably started this > whole craze with his shenanigans. I don't think Durrell did any > lifting in his poetry, though. And that is telling -- he found poetry > too sacred to try and get away with any funny stuff. > > Bruce > > >> >> For Durrell, I think there's a combination. It's expedient in >> fiction to >> lift a set piece or historical background (the ethics of it aside), >> but >> given Durrell's extreme awareness of textuality, what textual >> scholars do, >> and his anticipations of being read that way (his UNESCO lectures on >> Shakespeare, to my mind, make that clear), I don't think he assumed >> his >> audience wouldn't find out. That's also part of the game. >> >> For instance, Michael, do you think Durrell knew you'd read _Caesar's >> Vast >> Ghost_? Given your interactions with him over Forster and the >> Durrell-Miller letters, I think he'd be reasonably sure of that. The >> two >> pages worked in a journeyman fashion, but they also send scholars to >> your >> footnotes to Forster, which leads to Durrell's "Introduction," which >> leads >> to Durrell's own borrowings from Forster for the Quartet, which leads >> to... >> >> I think that allusive function (though not strictly speaking an >> allusion) >> was a part of the very genuine aesthetic appeal. Durrell did not >> write >> books that exist apart from other books -- even _The Black Book_ is >> very >> heavily indebted to Oscar Wilde and Djuna Barnes, though Durrell only >> acknowledges Henry Miller, who I do not think was a particularly >> profound >> influence at all... Even in Miller's marginal notes, he marks >> passages that >> seem "Miller-esque" but are actually in relation to T.S. Eliot. >> >> Does that leave you more or less disappointed, Bruce? >> >> That's my two cents... >> >> Best, >> James >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 29 17:11:16 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 20:11:16 -0400 Subject: [ilds] satori? In-Reply-To: <465CBBE5.7090509@wfu.edu> References: <3256587.1180480202195.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <465CBBE5.7090509@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070531173354.KRRA26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> See the Zen Teachings of Mu. We hippies zenned out in various ways. Yoga was seen as an entrance discipline. It's hard to see who was the main teacher. Ancient Zen teaching goes back more than 1,500 years. However, as recently as the 1960s an international Zen boom burst onto the scene with American hippies taking an active part. Now it is common in the Western media to hear of "Zen style." It's often made into an adjective to describe something quiet and calming, or to describe a state of emptiness. *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Thu May 31 10:39:22 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 18:39:22 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism In-Reply-To: <20070531172316.KPRI26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: No, Bill, I was referring to Fedden's introduction to the Personal Landscape Anthology, not to his Egypt. There is also that string of bus and tram stops in Alexandria, see Justine 1.23 and 1.26, lifted from something Liddle contributed to PL or the Flyting. :Michael On Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 06:23 pm, william godshalk wrote: > Didn't someone say Bill was working on this?? > > > > Bill's work was done 45 years ago at least, though I still look for > things now and again. The Durrell library at Carbondale is > enlightening -- or discouraging in terms of Durrell's cobbling > material together. I do have some notes around here that I may be able > to relocate. One book Durrell used liberally was an embalming manual. > > Anyway my early article may be found in Modern Fiction Studies 13 > (1967), 361-74. Michael points out to me that I missed something in > Robin Fedden's Egypt (1939). I have been haphazardly looking for a > Durrell borrowing in that book -- without success. > > Bill (from the past)_______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1163 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070531/1640c54e/attachment.bin From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu May 31 16:32:24 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 16:32:24 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Time and Justine Message-ID: <28749396.1180654345243.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Charles, we must have the same disease. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: slighcl >Sent: May 29, 2007 2:14 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] Time and Justine > > When I read for my own pleasure, I do not require that /Justine /has anything more >than music for me. From godshawl at email.uc.edu Thu May 31 18:15:40 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 21:15:40 -0400 Subject: [ilds] fessin up In-Reply-To: <3D4D6B93-0F9D-11DC-8785-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <27808292.1180630947808.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <3D4D6B93-0F9D-11DC-8785-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070601011540.ZVMZ13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070531/0077a760/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Thu May 31 18:24:21 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 21:24:21 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism In-Reply-To: References: <20070531172316.KPRI26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070601012431.WIMP26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070531/0ee5095f/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Thu May 31 18:32:00 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 02:32:00 +0100 Subject: [ilds] fessin up In-Reply-To: <20070601011540.ZVMZ13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: Nothing comes out of thin air, and we all build on the work of others. But breaking and entering is not generally considered kosher. :Michael On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 02:15 am, william godshalk wrote: > Michael, > > Since we've been bringing up the topic of thieving, I've been thinking > about the ways in which academics do construct essays. We tend to > quote or paraphrase (not to mention simply "take") a great deal in the > course of writing as essay. Look at my own essay on Durrell's > borrowing. In itself it's filled with borrowing. I may use footnotes, > but still my essay is a pastiche. > > ?I have an essay on Shakespeare's characters on the Web, and if you > should look at it, you will notice very soon that the essay is an > "anthology" of writings about literary character. I do however tell > the reader that I'm borrowing from others. > > I also have an essay on Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida on the Web. > It begins with an epigram attributed to Meyer,? a fictional character, > though I do not point that out as my editor wished. I hope you will > not pillory me, but the passage is stolen from John D. MacDonald. > > Dishonesty yours, Bill > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1169 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070601/6528089a/attachment.bin From durrells at otenet.gr Thu May 31 13:18:47 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:18:47 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's Notebooks References: <16564615.1180627281608.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <011c01c7a3c0$e57978a0$0100000a@DSC01> Yes we do, in the Durrell School of Corfu ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Redwine" To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 7:01 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's Notebooks > Does any scholar out there have plans to publish Durrell's many notebooks? > That would seem a very worthy enterprise, although finding a publisher > undoubtedly difficult. > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Durrell School of Corfu >>Sent: May 30, 2007 11:05 PM >>To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>Subject: Re: [ilds] "many fictions"/"many negatives" >> >>"It must be made clear that these are not 'characters': a character is an >>integer in a temporal series: whereas these are personalities embodied by >>reminiscence: the biological structure of a continuum. Space is my >>concern, >>not matter: so these men and women are not substance but the figment of >>substance seen in a mirror: I judge them not as man but as part of the >>scenery". LD, Corfu, 1938, in a notebook for 'The English Book of the >>Dead'. >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Bruce Redwine" >>To: ; >>Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:07 AM >>Subject: Re: [ilds] "many fictions"/"many negatives" >> >> >>> Jamie, yes, that especially includes Blake and Shakespeare. I'm >>> beginning >>> to think all of Durrell's characters are fictional, even the ones based >>> on >>> "real" people. He did what Charles talked about earlier today -- he >>> took >>> "spare parts" of things and reassembled them to his own choosing. I >>> include people here. Not at all surprising, most writers probably do >>> this. That's a great quote Charles found from the Ingersoll book of >>> collected conversations, where Durrell says, "I'm a spare parts man" >>> (Lawrence Durrell: Conversations, 1998, p. 100). Thanks for trying to >>> dig up my "many fictions of ourselves," but my memory failed me again. >>> I >>> actually had in mind, "I now move / Through the many negatives to what I >>> am" ("Alexandria," ll. 8-9). "Negatives" could mean feminine "negative >>> selves," maybe in the sense of Jungian animae, but I also take it to >>> mean >>> "photographic negatives," alternate selves. Interesting how the two >>> meanings complement one another. >>> >>> Bruce >>> > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2301 (20070531) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From dtart at bigpond.net.au Thu May 31 13:46:38 2007 From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 06:46:38 +1000 Subject: [ilds] The South of France Message-ID: <003501c7a3c4$c9731b30$0202a8c0@MumandDad> Bruce, Having spent a few years in pudding island and having visited the south of France while there, I must agree with you about the south of France. Having gone there after the long dark of a Yorkshire Winter I felt as if a great burden had been lifted off me. My six year old son said of pudding island "England is a sad country dad, it rains all the time. it's like the sky is crying". I think I could live somewhere around Nime or Avignon or St. Marie sur la Mare (a favourite of LDs) As to Canadians, I met one years ago in a bar in, strangely enough, Corfu and we discussed the relationship with the mother country. Whether Canada's proximity to the USA make a difference or not, I don't know, but there is less antagonism toward Britain than is felt by many Australians - of course much of this is fuelled by sporting rivalry on the rugby and cricket pitch and by nationalist movies like Gallipoli that depict the English as incompetent snobs who got thousands of Aussie boys killed in Turkey for no good reason. In point of fact, the Aussies were perfectly capable of their own incompetence and proved remarkable adept at useless heroics which saw hundreds of them killed. David Green Denise Tart & David Green 16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070601/891ea7a3/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Thu May 31 19:05:55 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:05:55 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Borrowers In-Reply-To: <20070601012431.WIMP26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.emai l.uc.edu> References: <20070531172316.KPRI26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070601012431.WIMP26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070601020616.BVE13769.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> I seem to remember reading, many, many, years ago, that some writers tend to be borrowers. Obviously Durrell is a borrower -- or if you insist a thief -- a literary thief. Are there essays and books on this subject? I mean on writers who borrow. I ask because I'm too busy to work on this myself until I finish my final papers next week. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu May 31 19:11:05 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 19:11:05 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] fessin up Message-ID: <3587800.1180663865293.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Bill, if Durrell had done what you did, this discussion about plagiarism would have ended long ago. He didn't. What I see he did was wrong on at least two counts. One, he committed an offense to the person he stole the material from. Two, he posed as someone he wasn't, which is an offense to his audience and to himself. Now, some may argue that Durrell's game was to assume multiple identities or some such literary activity, and for those, I guess, no offense was done. I find that argument unconvincing. Some writers like to strike poses, Lord Byron for one, but when they do it you know they're doing it, because they make sure you know it -- that's Romantic irony. Not so with LD, in the instance or instances under discussion. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Haag >Sent: May 31, 2007 6:32 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] fessin up > >Nothing comes out of thin air, and we all build on the work of others. >But breaking and entering is not generally considered kosher. > >:Michael > > >On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 02:15 am, william godshalk wrote: > >> Michael, >> >> Since we've been bringing up the topic of thieving, I've been thinking >> about the ways in which academics do construct essays. We tend to >> quote or paraphrase (not to mention simply "take") a great deal in the >> course of writing as essay. Look at my own essay on Durrell's >> borrowing. In itself it's filled with borrowing. I may use footnotes, >> but still my essay is a pastiche. >> >> I have an essay on Shakespeare's characters on the Web, and if you >> should look at it, you will notice very soon that the essay is an >> "anthology" of writings about literary character. I do however tell >> the reader that I'm borrowing from others. >> >> I also have an essay on Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida on the Web. >> It begins with an epigram attributed to Meyer, a fictional character, >> though I do not point that out as my editor wished. I hope you will >> not pillory me, but the passage is stolen from John D. MacDonald. >> >> Dishonesty yours, Bill >> From leadale at mts.net Thu May 31 21:00:39 2007 From: leadale at mts.net (Lea Stogdale) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:00:39 -0500 Subject: [ilds] Stateless Message-ID: <01C7A3D7.8282BA10.leadale@mts.net> Durrell's nationless status was revealed in 2002-born in India yet not Indian and never holding British citizenship despite working as a British civil servant. What passport did he hold? Lea No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.4/825 - Release Date: 5/30/07 3:03 PM From durrells at otenet.gr Thu May 31 22:25:47 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 08:25:47 +0300 Subject: [ilds] The South of France References: <003501c7a3c4$c9731b30$0202a8c0@MumandDad> Message-ID: <003701c7a40d$4f884810$0100000a@DSC01> Gerald Durrell said that 'England' was an Amerindian word meaning 'Land of perpetual rain'. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: Denise Tart & David Green To: Durrel Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:46 PM Subject: [ilds] The South of France Bruce, Having spent a few years in pudding island and having visited the south of France while there, I must agree with you about the south of France. Having gone there after the long dark of a Yorkshire Winter I felt as if a great burden had been lifted off me. My six year old son said of pudding island "England is a sad country dad, it rains all the time. it's like the sky is crying". I think I could live somewhere around Nime or Avignon or St. Marie sur la Mare (a favourite of LDs) As to Canadians, I met one years ago in a bar in, strangely enough, Corfu and we discussed the relationship with the mother country. Whether Canada's proximity to the USA make a difference or not, I don't know, but there is less antagonism toward Britain than is felt by many Australians - of course much of this is fuelled by sporting rivalry on the rugby and cricket pitch and by nationalist movies like Gallipoli that depict the English as incompetent snobs who got thousands of Aussie boys killed in Turkey for no good reason. In point of fact, the Aussies were perfectly capable of their own incompetence and proved remarkable adept at useless heroics which saw hundreds of them killed. David Green Denise Tart & David Green 16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au __________ NOD32 2303 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2303 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070601/d4e7cb1c/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 1 06:50:33 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 09:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] Stateless Message-ID: <26358318.1180705835410.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Yes, can someone clear up this matter about LD's passport? I think it's false. Born of British parents in a British colony and not British? Sounds absurd. Moreover, as Lea asks, how could he have worked all those years in the British Foreign Office and not have been a UK citizen? I know that in Hong Kong, before 1997, people born in the Crown Colony were issued a special British passport, which looked like a regular passport but was actually a "travel document." It enabled the holder to travel as a UK citizen, but it did not give the bearer all the rights of one. I.e., the bearer could not claim residence in the UK. Is something like this the basis of the rumor? Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Lea Stogdale >Sent: May 31, 2007 9:00 PM >To: "'ilds at lists.uvic.ca'" >Subject: [ilds] Stateless > >Durrell's nationless status was revealed in 2002-born in India yet not >Indian and never holding British citizenship despite working as a British >civil servant. > >What passport did he hold? >Lea > >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG. >Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.4/825 - Release Date: 5/30/07 3:03 >PM > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From slighcl at wfu.edu Fri Jun 1 07:24:29 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (Charles Sligh) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 10:24:29 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell fell foul of migrant law Message-ID: <1180707869.46602c1dc5f9f@squirrel.wfu.edu> Here is the source of the story as I saw it way back when. I will look forward to hearing more. Charles *** Durrell fell foul of migrant law http://books.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,4403368-99819,00.html John Ezard Monday April 29, 2002 Guardian Lawrence Durrell - one of the best selling, most celebrated English novelists of the late 20th century - was refused British citizenship at the height of his fame, it emerged yesterday. Durrell, author of the Alexandria Quartet, found himself caught in 1966 by a parliamentary act introduced with the covert aim of reducing immigration to Britain from India, Pakistan and the West Indies. In a move which alarmed and angered diplomats because of its threatened repercussions for the country's image, the writer, who held a British passport, was forced to apply for entry permits every time he wanted to visit his homeland. Papers just released by the public record office show that Sir Patrick Reilly, the ambassador in Paris, was so incensed that he wrote to his Foreign Office superiors: "I venture to suggest it might be wise to ensure that ministers, both in the Foreign Office and the Home Office, are aware that one of our greatest living writers in the English language is being debarred from the citizenship of the United Kingdom to which he is entitled. "It would surely make a very curious impression if it became generally known that he is not accepted as a citizen of the UK and that his passport carries an endorsement which suggests that there is something filthy about him. "I wonder if it is conceivable that any country in the world could allow such a thing to happen to a writer of worldwide reputation. Suppose one day he gets a Nobel prize and this story comes out. What sort of fools will we look?" Durrell - himself a former diplomat - was born in India to an English father and Anglo-Irish mother. From 1939-1945 he worked for embassies in the Mediterranean and for the British Council. By 1966 he had lived at Nimes, southern France, for eight years. At his peak The Alexandria Quartet led him to be praised in the US as a literary giant. He was paid $2,500 a week, now worth $15,000, as a Hollywood script writer. But he had not been notified that he needed to register as a British citizen under the 1962 Commonwealth Immigration Act, introduced by Harold Macmillan's Conservative government. He was told the Labour home secretary in 1966, Roy (now Lord) Jenkins, had no power to override his exclusion. Durrell was a lifelong satirist of British bureaucracy and sexual puritanism. Untypically, he decided not to embarrass the government and obediently applied for entry visas whenever he visited Britain. Guardian Unlimited ? Guardian News and Media Limited 2007 From richardpin at eircom.net Fri Jun 1 07:00:29 2007 From: richardpin at eircom.net (richardpin at eircom.net) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:00:29 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Stateless Message-ID: <200706011400.l51E0URN1548484@cascara.comp.uvic.ca> I think Michael H can illuminate this - the 'revelation' in 2002 was, I think, in the Guardian newspaper (UK) and explained why LD did not, in fact, hold a full British passport. RP Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca wrote: < < Yes, can someone clear up this matter about LD's passport? I think it's false. Born of British parents in a British colony and not British? Sounds absurd. Moreover, as Lea asks, how could he have worked all those years in the British Foreign Office and not have been a UK citizen? I know that in Hong Kong, before 1997, people born in the Crown Colony were issued a special British passport, which looked like a regular passport but was actually a "travel document." It enabled the holder to travel as a UK citizen, but it did not give the bearer all the rights of one. I.e., the bearer could not claim residence in the UK. Is something like this the basis of the rumor? < < Bruce < < -----Original Message----- < >From: Lea Stogdale < >Sent: May 31, 2007 9:00 PM < >To: "'ilds at lists.uvic.ca'" < >Subject: [ilds] Stateless < > < >Durrell's nationless status was revealed in 2002-born in India yet not < >Indian and never holding British citizenship despite working as a British < >civil servant. < > < >What passport did he hold? < >Lea < > < >No virus found in this outgoing message. < >Checked by AVG. < >Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.4/825 - Release Date: 5/30/07 3:03 < >PM < > < >_______________________________________________ < >ILDS mailing list < >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca < >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds < < _______________________________________________ < ILDS mailing list < ILDS at lists.uvic.ca < https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds < ----------------------------------------------------------------- Find the home of your dreams with eircom net property Sign up for email alerts now http://www.eircom.net/propertyalerts From holdsworth at rogers.com Fri Jun 1 07:59:51 2007 From: holdsworth at rogers.com (David Holdsworth) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 10:59:51 -0400 Subject: [ilds] The South of France In-Reply-To: <003501c7a3c4$c9731b30$0202a8c0@MumandDad> Message-ID: <004101c7a45d$85a16850$6501a8c0@D13W0611> David Green wrote: As to Canadians, I met one years ago in a bar in, strangely enough, Corfu and we discussed the relationship with the mother country. Whether Canada's proximity to the USA make a difference or not, I don't know, but there is less antagonism toward Britain than is felt by many Australians . The bar as centre of learning! Wonderful! LD would have approved. It is true there is little antagonism by English-speaking Canadians toward Britain; if anything, there is a lingering affection because of historical ties. (Quebec is another matter though, again because of history). It is also true that Britain is currently not seen by the majority of Canadians as particularly relevant to their lives. May 24 (Queen Victoria's birthday) is still celebrated here but a poll this year showed only one Canadian in five saw any historical significance in the event. Polls generally show Canadians are split evenly on abolishing the monarchy but it is not a significant political issue. Our changing demographics in the past 30 years (Chinese is now our third language, I believe), economic links to the USA and a general perception that Britain's future is with Europe may explain it. Because of shared historical and linguistic ties, Britain still remains important culturally to English-speaking Canadians. However, I can't think off-hand of any major young Canadian writers these days who display the love-hate relationship which LD had with pudding island. David Holdsworth Ottawa, Canada -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070601/dcde950d/attachment.html From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 08:49:26 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 09:49:26 -0600 Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism In-Reply-To: <3D4D6B93-0F9D-11DC-8785-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Hello all, If I were to articulate my thoughts on Durrell's borrowings or plagiarisms more thoroughly, it would take the following form, though I should hasten to add that we do not currently have all the instances catalogued, so everything all of us says is at least subject to some shift as patterns or trends may emerge. First, let me also belabour a point that I know has frustrated several list members, and that's the tone of our interactions. Let me point out that I know Michael Haag, who with his lovely wife very kindly had my wife and I to dinner less than a week ago at an absolutely delicious Turkish restaurant. I know tone over email is often not what it is in a personal conversation -- we all take different approaches, and Michael's is fairly direct. Fair enough -- he takes direct responses as well, with no harm. We have a few people on the list who 'shoot from the hip,' and I just want to point out that disagreement doesn't mean we fail to use each other's work (and cite it) or continue to enjoy friendly discussions. This may be belabouring the obvious, but as a moderator, I've heard a few worried comments about these exchanges, so I wanted to make sure my thoughts on it were at least clear. So, as for plagiarism, I should respond in detail. Michael notes: > James' defence of Durrell's plagiarism as outlined > below is yet another example of 'the academy's' > willingness to think up idiotic rationalisations > instead of arriving at a principled position. I'd disagree with this, and the dozens of students who have been given a permanent mark of academic misconduct, failure on a course, and academic probation (and in a few cases permanent expulsion) from the schools I've taught at would disagree as well. I do not condone plagiarism, but an author is in a different situation from that of a student writing papers. For the record, every paper I've received over the past 4 years has been required to pass an electronic plagiarism detector -- the result has been (on average) a 10% rate of plagiarism (and filed cases) regardless of how I stress this point to my students. Fine. We don't need those students. And by the way, the quality of the school and admission standards has very little to do with it -- one of the worst schools I've taught at with the lowest admissions standards is the only one I haven't yet had a plagiarism case for (though I had one borderline). > The principle may be that it is OK to steal texts, > in which case they can start by stealing each other's > PhD dissertations, and allow their students to steal > their term papers from the internet. I think I've shown this is patently false and also a different matter. Plagiarism is *not* on the rise in the academy -- the plagiarists are just stupid enough to steal from something that is a searchable database... Moreover, having worked in a few different industries, I can very confidently state that the rate of intellectual theft or theft of non-physical materials is much, much higher outside of the academy. I see it in the news media *constantly*. In construction it is an absolutely standard practice to quote a lower price if you have someone else's quote for a contract in hand, and then to submit the verbatim quote form the competitor with the lower price. Many industries would simply cease to exist if they academy's standards were applied to intellectual property. But, Durrell is hardly in the same boat as students, reporters, or construction crews, and I think the authorship of _Caesar's Vast Ghost_ is perhaps disputable as well... > That is not the law, however, which unlike the > academy takes a firm and straightforward view on > what is right and wrong. I could easily use > James' argument below to explain that I had broken > into his home, stolen his belongings, but that it > was perfectly all right as he would have known, or > at some point was likely to find out, that I had > done so. Again, while I appreciate Michael's thoughts here, these are on a different order. Rather than breaking into my home by forced entry and stealing unique properties that I could not replace, wouldn't this be more akin to my inviting you in (next time you're in Edmonton!) only to find you liked my decorating so much you copied it back in London? Perhaps neither of our analogies here is apt... In the case under discussion, Durrell stole 2 pages from a book written by a man who had already published his letters and introduction to an E.M. Forster volume. This is not to say it's excusable, but if I were to include 2 pages from one of Charles' articles in one of my own, then ask him to review it... I would think it's at least cloudy. And, I would hasten to add that our academic research that makes finding these issues easier is greatly supported by a loose network that perpetuates copyright violations by distributing materials that are not permitted reproduction by anyone other than the copyright holder. Is this an anarchist listserv? However, there are two other issues at work here as well: pastiche and the notebook composition method (apart from whether or not Durrell even wrote that book). Also, Peter Christensen refers to the interview in which Durrell calls himself a burglar, and he makes much use of it in his article "The Hazards of Intellectual Burglary," which I've cited at the end, and which I've disagreed with strongly in print even though I still get along well with Peter quite well and respect his work. Durrell's earlier texts contain a different kind of borrowing, which I would agree with Bill is far closer to pastiche, and I think he got the habit from none other than T.S. Eliot. After all, how many lines of "The Waste Land" are original? Even the title is borrowed, but that is it's point. Moreover, how do we read the scene in _Mountolive_ near the beginning, in which Mountolive and Leila look at each other in love, and she recites Ruskin's "Imperial Order"? It's a stolen bit from Ruskin, but I think that's actually the point... Such things appear throughout the Quartet, Revolt, and Quintet (as well as the Black Book and the other stand alone volumes). To a degree, I'm inclined to see these as instances of pastiche, especially given the political and aesthetic dimension that develops if they are read as akin to allusions. How do we change as readers when we not only recognize an instance of 'borrowing' but also recognize the source? I read some of these as functioning very much like Henry Miller's stolen paragraph from Joyce in _Tropic of Cancer_. It fits like Eliot's notion of Tradition, which prompted so many of "The Waste Land" thefts. That element is a viable artistic method with established purposes and reasons, put into motion by none other than Durrell's senior mentor. The other element is his notebook composition style. He jotted just about anything and everything into the notebooks. For instance, the famous Gnostic suicide cult in the Quintet derives very simply from excerpts from Serge Hutin's _Les Gnostiques_ combined with a momentarily famous teen suicide club in Slovenia (not really, just a sudden spike in the suicide rate that made people suspect some kind of club). Durrell just merged the newspaper article with his jottings from Hutin's book to come up with a brand new plot. It worked, and it worked well. In using his notebooks as 'quarry books' (which Richard Pine has explored more thoroughly than anyone else), Durrell often both repeated himself (internal allusion) and repeated materials he'd copied into his notebooks that he'd transcribed rather than actually written. That entails some risks, but it's a method that makes his works what they are... It's certainly not the same as a student or scholar copying pages and "forgetting" to cite. However, there's yet another problem to put into this puzzle, and that's the temporal sequence. This is both a saving grace and damning evidence. Durrell's first novel, _Pied Piper of Lovers_ contains materials taken from a family member, and while reworked, I don't think it qualifies as pastiche. Plagiarism is likely closer to the mark, though the materials take on a very specific context in their new framework. That problem doesn't strike me as being the case at all in the remaining materials until the very end of his career. From _Panic Spring_ to _Quinx_, I am inclined to read borrowings as pastiche, allusion, and a way of playing with Eliot's Tradition (as well as a risk of his notebook method, which I'm inclined to see as a failing in _Revolt_ and some points in the _Quartet_ but also as the greatest innovation and strength in the _Quintet_ and _Clea_). Did Durrell violate Freud's intellectual property rights? What about Groddeck, whom he frequently took from in order to create plots? Is "Clueless" or "Bridget Jones" in violation of Jane Austen's rights? That leaves the very end of the temporal stretch: _Caesar's Vast Ghost_. Someone who has worked more closely on that volume and the notebooks for it (Isabelle Keller, where are you??) can say more about this; however, I suspect that Durrell continued his lifelong habit of scribbling in the notebooks, but he had some very, very substantial help in cobbling those jottings together into the final volume. My understanding is that the draft he sent to Faber was a mess of loose papers, and I heard a rumour he had help patching it together. Given his last few years of hard drinking, ill health, and very likely a stroke (Ian is vague on this issue, but he does describe the impact it had on Durrell, and the late interview in "Une Amitie Parisienne" shows his slurring much to one side of his face -- Michael??), I find this neither surprising nor significant. _Caesar's Vast Ghost_ is not Durrell's finest work, and I suspect the stitches holding it together may not even be his own, though there are some absolutely lovely passages that strike me as typical of something I'd find in his later notebooks. That some of those sections were transcriptions from things he liked surprises me not at all -- I actually wonder if he was the one who consciously chose to include them, especially something so long as 2 pages. If he had used it, he must have known Michael would spot it immediately, perhaps even before it went to press. As for passing judgement, I try to avoid that. Percy Shelley enjoyed shooting song birds, Malcolm Lowry was a drunk, Elizabeth Smart would consume anything that might give her a buzz, Byron (ahem), and so forth... I still like their works, and use their biographies when appropriate, but I don't like to judge the author, per se. I'll judge a student for plagiarism in the classroom, but for an author who wrote a text I'm working on, it's not part of what I'm reading to do -- I'd like to know when it's happening, and it may change how I read, but to suggest I should stop reading an author based on his or her ethics really isn't a matter I can be bothered with. As I said, this notion is a 20th century invention -- as any musician can tell you, borrowing was the norm until the past 150 years, ranging from theme & variations to lifting entire movements. It was a trade, not a matter of private ownership. Thank gawd someone violated Shakespeare's intellectual property rights in the Quartos! I'm neither fully in favour of that nor fully against it, though out of courtesy I do think Michael should have his 1/100th of the royalties, even though those royalties likely exist due to Durrell's name and previous works rather than those 2 pages. And with regard to current court cases, things like _The Da Vinci Code_ (for which Michael is our resident expert), we have a very different matter. That book could not exist were it not for _Holy Blood Holy Grail_, and its plot is a loosely assembled wrapper for 'history' lessons almost exactly drawn from Baigent's book and its spawn (reminds me of children's cartoons where the protagonists need to stop every 2 minutes to solve a puzzle in order to continue...). Oh, and here's what Christopher Hitchens has to say about Eliot's "The Waste Land" and plagiarism: "Madison Cawein's poem 'Waste Land.' Cawein was as distant from Eliot, in poetic terms, as it was possible to be. He was a Kentucky blues man and a barroom versifier. However, like Eliot, he was fascinated by the Celtic twilight and the search for the Grail. And his verses, with their haunting title, did appear in the January 1913 edition of Poetry magazine. Since that very issue also contained an essay by Ezra Pound on the new poets writing in London, it seems more rather than less likely that Eliot would have read it.' Also, someone named "Delphi" posted to a discussion board: "Bevis Hillier compared Cawein's lines '...come and go/Around its ancient portico' with Eliot's '?come and go/talking of Michelangelo'." That's actually in "Prufrock" though... But, back to the issue at hand, Michael also notes: > Durrell has done this quite a lot. I had not known > about the Prospero's Cell plagiarism until Richard Pine > brought it to our attention. I will be looking into > that thoroughly now. I'd often thought I'd use this tidbit of information, but anyone who cares to give me a footnote is welcome to it -- Durrell sent a letter to the Gennadius Library in Athens asking for books to borrow (he knew it wasn't a lending library) in order to finish _Prospero's Cell_. He included the list. They never catalogued the letter... I found it glued inside the front board for the Gennadius' copy of _Prospero's Cell_. Have fun... > I have spotted quite a bit of close lifting if not > outright plagiarism in Justine and other volumes of > the Quartet This is not a surprise to me, and I wonder if it may be closer to pastiche? Given the close ties to Eliot, the notebook method, and the duration of the composition, isn't this more likely than "plagiarism" per se? Moreover, as with Eliot, does this material take on a very different appearance in its new context and position? But, there's more... > In fact it is pretty funny, because Manzaloui in his > 'Curate's Egg: An Alexandrian Opinion of Durrell's > Quartet' attacked Durrell for his supposedly faulty > understanding of this and that, and it turns out that > the fault lies largely in the material Durrell lifted > from supposedly reputable sources -- this is what Bill > demonstrated Manzalaoui (frequently mis-spelled in publications without the "a") is a fine scholar, and he's taken up Durrell elsewhere in different ways, but that is a funny article in general. One almost wonders if there would be a 'right' way to write for Manzalaoui's perspective there... It does, however, very notably precede Edward Said by a goodly stretch of time. > It is astounding how little 'the academy' troubles > to examine source material in the case of Durrell, > how its theorising is based almost entirely on > principles of careless free association, self > indulgence, or ideological mongering, unrestrained > by reference to evidence, context, biography or the > other usual constraints. There is plenty of work to > be done. I both agree and disagree with several of these points. I might point out first that tracking down source materials has actually been a large part of my own contribution... As for the middle part, there's been an equal share across the entire couple thousand critic works on Durrell -- some have been exceptionally good and some have been exceptionally bad. I could say the same for freelance authors, reviewers, or virtually anyone in any profession. The problem does not lay in the academy and who is in (or not in) it, but rather in the individuals doing the work. The "ideological mongering" has been remarkably mild in studies of Durrell, and I'd like to see more political studies, albeit better ones and more theoretically engaged with critical materials current in academic discourse. I would hardly call that self indulgence for most, and I think virtually all of it (well, perhaps 75%) has had at least a healthy dose of "reference to evidence, context, biography or the other usual constraints." Simply put, many of us just disagree, and that's fine with me. It's also very true that the biographical materials have been very shoddy until the past decade, and that has caused serious problems that continue even now. Each biography corrects the one that came before, and that's how scholarship accrues -- it's hardly fair to expect someone of 30 years ago to have done the work we do now... We just keep building, correctly, developing, and so on. I'm glad to contribute what I can to those who are making corrections and turning us in new directions. There are errors in my previous work, and I don't apologize for them -- I just correct them as I go along or hope the next person will show where I've been mistaken (or where we simply disagree), and I don't begrudge anyone for doing that. I hope that more carefully articulates a fast & rough idea of what I mean by the allusive function of some materials, the context it comes from, the importance of "when" in Durrell's writing career, and the host of other issues that surround 'plagiarism' in Durrell, not the least of which being the predominance of such things in 20th century writing. The pursuit of source materials is extremely important, as Richard Pine's _Mindscape_ has shown for Durrell (try to imagine Shakespeare or Classics without it!!), but apart from a few incidents, I don't find it bothersome. I'll wait for the evidence to prove me wrong... Michael, the next time we meet up, I owe you a pint! Cheers, James See: Christensen, Peter G. "The Hazards of Intellectual Burglary in Lawrence Durrell's The Revolt of Aphrodite." _Studies in the Literary Imagination_ 24.1 (1991): 41-56. Scott, Robert Ian. "T. S. Eliot and the Original Waste Land." _University of Windsor Review_ 19.2 (1986): 61-64. From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 1 08:54:09 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 08:54:09 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Durrell fell foul of migrant law Message-ID: <17750182.1180713249884.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Amazing. And here I thought the U.S. had the stupidest people working in its government. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Charles Sligh >Sent: Jun 1, 2007 7:24 AM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] Durrell fell foul of migrant law > >Here is the source of the story as I saw it way back when. I will look forward >to hearing more. > >Charles > >*** > >Durrell fell foul of migrant law >http://books.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,4403368-99819,00.html >John Ezard >Monday April 29, 2002 > >Guardian > >Lawrence Durrell - one of the best selling, most celebrated English novelists of >the late 20th century - was refused British citizenship at the height of his >fame, it emerged yesterday. >Durrell, author of the Alexandria Quartet, found himself caught in 1966 by a >parliamentary act introduced with the covert aim of reducing immigration to >Britain from India, Pakistan and the West Indies. > >In a move which alarmed and angered diplomats because of its threatened >repercussions for the country's image, the writer, who held a British passport, >was forced to apply for entry permits every time he wanted to visit his >homeland. > >Papers just released by the public record office show that Sir Patrick Reilly, >the ambassador in Paris, was so incensed that he wrote to his Foreign Office >superiors: "I venture to suggest it might be wise to ensure that ministers, >both in the Foreign Office and the Home Office, are aware that one of our >greatest living writers in the English language is being debarred from the >citizenship of the United Kingdom to which he is entitled. > >"It would surely make a very curious impression if it became generally known >that he is not accepted as a citizen of the UK and that his passport carries an >endorsement which suggests that there is something filthy about him. > >"I wonder if it is conceivable that any country in the world could allow such a >thing to happen to a writer of worldwide reputation. Suppose one day he gets a >Nobel prize and this story comes out. What sort of fools will we look?" > >Durrell - himself a former diplomat - was born in India to an English father and >Anglo-Irish mother. From 1939-1945 he worked for embassies in the Mediterranean >and for the British Council. By 1966 he had lived at Nimes, southern France, >for eight years. > >At his peak The Alexandria Quartet led him to be praised in the US as a literary >giant. He was paid $2,500 a week, now worth $15,000, as a Hollywood script >writer. > >But he had not been notified that he needed to register as a British citizen >under the 1962 Commonwealth Immigration Act, introduced by Harold Macmillan's >Conservative government. He was told the Labour home secretary in 1966, Roy >(now Lord) Jenkins, had no power to override his exclusion. > >Durrell was a lifelong satirist of British bureaucracy and sexual puritanism. >Untypically, he decided not to embarrass the government and obediently applied >for entry visas whenever he visited Britain. > >Guardian Unlimited ? Guardian News and Media Limited 2007 >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Fri Jun 1 08:56:58 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 16:56:58 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's British citizenship In-Reply-To: <200706011400.l51E0URN1548484@cascara.comp.uvic.ca> Message-ID: Durrell was British and held a British passport; at no point in his life was he stateless. However, in the 1960s the British woke up to the fact that if everyone who had been born in the British Empire chose to travel at once, and in particular chose to come to Britain, something like a billion people could show up on an afternoon. And so a limitation was placed on freedom of entry to Britain based on ancestry (father's birth in Britain, I think -- sorry, I do not have the exact details to hand) or established residence in Britain. Durrell's family -- his mother, sister and brothers -- were all resident in Britain and were therefore British under those previous arrangements and needed to do nothing; in fact they were probably entirely unaware of the change in law. But Durrell was living abroad, and he would have needed to register -- simply by going to his nearest British consulate. But he was unaware of the new conditions. He only discovered the situation some years later when he went to get his passport renewed at the consulate at Nice (I think it was), and they explained that they could not give him a British passport with free right of entry to Britain; instead he would have to obtain a visa. His situation was something like that which Bruce describes below. Durrell knew the British ambassador to Paris at the time and raised the matter with him, who in turn raised it with the Foreign Office and the Home Office. I have looked at these papers. Everyone bent over backwards to remedy the situation, but the law had been passed, Durrell had missed the boat, and it was decided at the highest level that an exception could not be made for one man. What the authorities did do, however, was to offer to put Durrell on the British consular payroll (again at Nice, I think) -- I am writing this off the top of my head without looking at my notes so I am not giving you the precise legalities and justifications for all this -- which some how would have got round the problem; I think it was because it could then be argued that this was an extension of Durrell's foreign service employment which would have entitled him to automatic continuation as a British citizen with a British passport with full privileges. All Durrell had to do was to show up at the consulate very occasionally, once or twice a month or whatever, probably have a drink, and then go home again. But he chose not to accept that; quite simply he was too busy. He was content enough to enter Britain as a British citizen with a British passport but also with the need to carry a visa. Durrell was always British; at no time was he stateless. In short, changing times and changing laws. Until the 1960s Durrell was British and enjoyed the full benefits of British citizenship. Afterwards Durrell was still British and still a British passport holder but with the qualification that he would need a visa to enter Britain. The British government did everything in its reasonable powers to make good the situation. Durrell himself felt unable to avail himself of their solution. There were no bad feelings. Incidentally, had Durrell been Irish this problem would not have arisen. The definition of Irish nationality is that one parent or grandparent was born in Ireland. Anyone satisfying that condition is Irish at birth (whether they know it or not) and is entitled to an Irish passport. Moreover under British law anyone of Irish nationality is entitled to live, work and vote in Britain. No visa is required. I believe that the same applies in reverse. :Michael On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 03:00 pm, wrote: > I think Michael H can illuminate this - the 'revelation' in 2002 was, > I think, in the Guardian newspaper (UK) and explained why LD did not, > in fact, hold a full British passport. > RP > > Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca wrote: > > < > < Yes, can someone clear up this matter about LD's passport? I think > it's false. Born of British parents in a British colony and not > British? Sounds absurd. Moreover, as Lea asks, how could he have > worked all those years in the British Foreign Office and not have been > a UK citizen? I know that in Hong Kong, before 1997, people born in > the Crown Colony were issued a special British passport, which looked > like a regular passport but was actually a "travel document." It > enabled the holder to travel as a UK citizen, but it did not give the > bearer all the rights of one. I.e., the bearer could not claim > residence in the UK. Is something like this the basis of the rumor? > < > < Bruce > < > < -----Original Message----- > < >From: Lea Stogdale > < >Sent: May 31, 2007 9:00 PM > < >To: "'ilds at lists.uvic.ca'" > < >Subject: [ilds] Stateless > < > > < >Durrell's nationless status was revealed in 2002-born in India yet > not > < >Indian and never holding British citizenship despite working as a > British > < >civil servant. > < > > < >What passport did he hold? > < >Lea > < > > < > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 1 09:21:39 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 09:21:39 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Durrell's British citizenship Message-ID: <3410363.1180714899592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Thanks, Michael for the thorough explanation. I'm still puzzled by British law. Having recognized there was a problem with the Act of 1966, why didn't Parliament correct it? Such as extend the time to register as a British citizen? Surely Lawrence Durrell wasn't the only UK "citizen" suddenly finding himself a foreigner in his own country, because of some arcane provision in the act. I guess the answer is obvious. Parliament did not consider that a "problem." This sounds a little like the current debate in the U.S. over immigration policy. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Haag >Sent: Jun 1, 2007 8:56 AM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's British citizenship > >Durrell was British and held a British passport; at no point in his >life was he stateless. > >However, in the 1960s the British woke up to the fact that if everyone >who had been born in the British Empire chose to travel at once, and in >particular chose to come to Britain, something like a billion people >could show up on an afternoon. And so a limitation was placed on >freedom of entry to Britain based on ancestry (father's birth in >Britain, I think -- sorry, I do not have the exact details to hand) or >established residence in Britain. Durrell's family -- his mother, >sister and brothers -- were all resident in Britain and were therefore >British under those previous arrangements and needed to do nothing; in >fact they were probably entirely unaware of the change in law. But >Durrell was living abroad, and he would have needed to register -- >simply by going to his nearest British consulate. But he was unaware >of the new conditions. He only discovered the situation some years >later when he went to get his passport renewed at the consulate at Nice >(I think it was), and they explained that they could not give him a >British passport with free right of entry to Britain; instead he would >have to obtain a visa. His situation was something like that which >Bruce describes below. > >Durrell knew the British ambassador to Paris at the time and raised the >matter with him, who in turn raised it with the Foreign Office and the >Home Office. I have looked at these papers. Everyone bent over >backwards to remedy the situation, but the law had been passed, Durrell >had missed the boat, and it was decided at the highest level that an >exception could not be made for one man. What the authorities did do, >however, was to offer to put Durrell on the British consular payroll >(again at Nice, I think) -- I am writing this off the top of my head >without looking at my notes so I am not giving you the precise >legalities and justifications for all this -- which some how would have >got round the problem; I think it was because it could then be argued >that this was an extension of Durrell's foreign service employment >which would have entitled him to automatic continuation as a British >citizen with a British passport with full privileges. All Durrell had >to do was to show up at the consulate very occasionally, once or twice >a month or whatever, probably have a drink, and then go home again. >But he chose not to accept that; quite simply he was too busy. He was >content enough to enter Britain as a British citizen with a British >passport but also with the need to carry a visa. Durrell was always >British; at no time was he stateless. > >In short, changing times and changing laws. Until the 1960s Durrell >was British and enjoyed the full benefits of British citizenship. >Afterwards Durrell was still British and still a British passport >holder but with the qualification that he would need a visa to enter >Britain. The British government did everything in its reasonable >powers to make good the situation. Durrell himself felt unable to >avail himself of their solution. There were no bad feelings. > >Incidentally, had Durrell been Irish this problem would not have >arisen. The definition of Irish nationality is that one parent or >grandparent was born in Ireland. Anyone satisfying that condition is >Irish at birth (whether they know it or not) and is entitled to an >Irish passport. Moreover under British law anyone of Irish nationality >is entitled to live, work and vote in Britain. No visa is required. I >believe that the same applies in reverse. > >:Michael > > > > > >On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 03:00 pm, wrote: > >> I think Michael H can illuminate this - the 'revelation' in 2002 was, >> I think, in the Guardian newspaper (UK) and explained why LD did not, >> in fact, hold a full British passport. >> RP >> >> Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca wrote: >> >> < >> < Yes, can someone clear up this matter about LD's passport? I think >> it's false. Born of British parents in a British colony and not >> British? Sounds absurd. Moreover, as Lea asks, how could he have >> worked all those years in the British Foreign Office and not have been >> a UK citizen? I know that in Hong Kong, before 1997, people born in >> the Crown Colony were issued a special British passport, which looked >> like a regular passport but was actually a "travel document." It >> enabled the holder to travel as a UK citizen, but it did not give the >> bearer all the rights of one. I.e., the bearer could not claim >> residence in the UK. Is something like this the basis of the rumor? >> < >> < Bruce >> < >> < -----Original Message----- >> < >From: Lea Stogdale >> < >Sent: May 31, 2007 9:00 PM >> < >To: "'ilds at lists.uvic.ca'" >> < >Subject: [ilds] Stateless >> < > >> < >Durrell's nationless status was revealed in 2002-born in India yet >> not >> < >Indian and never holding British citizenship despite working as a >> British >> < >civil servant. >> < > >> < >What passport did he hold? >> < >Lea >> < > >> < >> > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Fri Jun 1 10:13:23 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 18:13:23 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's British citizenship In-Reply-To: <3410363.1180714899592.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6781DFA0-1063-11DC-A9B5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> My guess is that it was a very minor problem. For those who had been born in what had British India (Pakistan, India and Burma) and were resident in the United Kingdom there was nothing they needed to know or do. How many British patrials there were resident outside the UK I do not know, nor do I know what efforts were made to alert them to the new law. I believe that citizens of any country who are living abroad are usually told to keep in touch with their embassy; that the responsibility for being informed lies with the individual. I suppose the safest way of framing that law would have been to ensure that it should not apply to British patrials resident abroad within a certain period of time, that time being the valid life of their British passports -- so that as one's passport expired, one was obliged to renew it at an embassy or consulate where one would have been told, in good time, that one needed to register under the new act. Had that been the case, and had Durrell or anyone in his position renewed his passport within that time, the problem would not have arisen. For all I know the law was framed in that way, and that Durrell failed to renew his passport when he should have -- one would have to look at his passport, the provisions of the law, etc, to know for sure. Had there been any significant number of people affected by this situation I would have thought that remedial action would have been taken by Parliament. Nothing I have read in the Foreign Office and Home Office files indicates that there was a wider problem. I would not be surprised if Durrell was the only one. :Michael On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 05:21 pm, Bruce Redwine wrote: > Thanks, Michael for the thorough explanation. I'm still puzzled by > British law. Having recognized there was a problem with the Act of > 1966, why didn't Parliament correct it? Such as extend the time to > register as a British citizen? Surely Lawrence Durrell wasn't the > only UK "citizen" suddenly finding himself a foreigner in his own > country, because of some arcane provision in the act. I guess the > answer is obvious. Parliament did not consider that a "problem." > This sounds a little like the current debate in the U.S. over > immigration policy. > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Haag >> Sent: Jun 1, 2007 8:56 AM >> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's British citizenship >> >> Durrell was British and held a British passport; at no point in his >> life was he stateless. >> >> However, in the 1960s the British woke up to the fact that if everyone >> who had been born in the British Empire chose to travel at once, and >> in >> particular chose to come to Britain, something like a billion people >> could show up on an afternoon. And so a limitation was placed on >> freedom of entry to Britain based on ancestry (father's birth in >> Britain, I think -- sorry, I do not have the exact details to hand) or >> established residence in Britain. Durrell's family -- his mother, >> sister and brothers -- were all resident in Britain and were therefore >> British under those previous arrangements and needed to do nothing; in >> fact they were probably entirely unaware of the change in law. But >> Durrell was living abroad, and he would have needed to register -- >> simply by going to his nearest British consulate. But he was unaware >> of the new conditions. He only discovered the situation some years >> later when he went to get his passport renewed at the consulate at >> Nice >> (I think it was), and they explained that they could not give him a >> British passport with free right of entry to Britain; instead he would >> have to obtain a visa. His situation was something like that which >> Bruce describes below. >> >> Durrell knew the British ambassador to Paris at the time and raised >> the >> matter with him, who in turn raised it with the Foreign Office and the >> Home Office. I have looked at these papers. Everyone bent over >> backwards to remedy the situation, but the law had been passed, >> Durrell >> had missed the boat, and it was decided at the highest level that an >> exception could not be made for one man. What the authorities did do, >> however, was to offer to put Durrell on the British consular payroll >> (again at Nice, I think) -- I am writing this off the top of my head >> without looking at my notes so I am not giving you the precise >> legalities and justifications for all this -- which some how would >> have >> got round the problem; I think it was because it could then be argued >> that this was an extension of Durrell's foreign service employment >> which would have entitled him to automatic continuation as a British >> citizen with a British passport with full privileges. All Durrell had >> to do was to show up at the consulate very occasionally, once or twice >> a month or whatever, probably have a drink, and then go home again. >> But he chose not to accept that; quite simply he was too busy. He was >> content enough to enter Britain as a British citizen with a British >> passport but also with the need to carry a visa. Durrell was always >> British; at no time was he stateless. >> >> In short, changing times and changing laws. Until the 1960s Durrell >> was British and enjoyed the full benefits of British citizenship. >> Afterwards Durrell was still British and still a British passport >> holder but with the qualification that he would need a visa to enter >> Britain. The British government did everything in its reasonable >> powers to make good the situation. Durrell himself felt unable to >> avail himself of their solution. There were no bad feelings. >> >> Incidentally, had Durrell been Irish this problem would not have >> arisen. The definition of Irish nationality is that one parent or >> grandparent was born in Ireland. Anyone satisfying that condition is >> Irish at birth (whether they know it or not) and is entitled to an >> Irish passport. Moreover under British law anyone of Irish >> nationality >> is entitled to live, work and vote in Britain. No visa is required. >> I >> believe that the same applies in reverse. >> >> :Michael >> >> >> >> >> >> On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 03:00 pm, wrote: >> >>> I think Michael H can illuminate this - the 'revelation' in 2002 was, >>> I think, in the Guardian newspaper (UK) and explained why LD did not, >>> in fact, hold a full British passport. >>> RP >>> >>> Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca wrote: >>> >>> < >>> < Yes, can someone clear up this matter about LD's passport? I >>> think >>> it's false. Born of British parents in a British colony and not >>> British? Sounds absurd. Moreover, as Lea asks, how could he have >>> worked all those years in the British Foreign Office and not have >>> been >>> a UK citizen? I know that in Hong Kong, before 1997, people born in >>> the Crown Colony were issued a special British passport, which looked >>> like a regular passport but was actually a "travel document." It >>> enabled the holder to travel as a UK citizen, but it did not give the >>> bearer all the rights of one. I.e., the bearer could not claim >>> residence in the UK. Is something like this the basis of the rumor? >>> < >>> < Bruce >>> < >>> < -----Original Message----- >>> < >From: Lea Stogdale >>> < >Sent: May 31, 2007 9:00 PM >>> < >To: "'ilds at lists.uvic.ca'" >>> < >Subject: [ilds] Stateless >>> < > >>> < >Durrell's nationless status was revealed in 2002-born in India >>> yet >>> not >>> < >Indian and never holding British citizenship despite working as a >>> British >>> < >civil servant. >>> < > >>> < >What passport did he hold? >>> < >Lea >>> < > >>> < >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 1 11:08:52 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:08:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism Message-ID: <20861574.1180721333029.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Here's a hypothetical. I write an article about Tibet, and I begin it by saying, "I know an old Tibetan saying, which goes, 'Mos gus yod na / Khyl so od tung,' which means, 'Where there is veneration, / Even a dog's tooth emits light.'" I then go on to elaborate that proverb in terms of Tibetan culture. I call the essay, "Tantric Veneration and the Canine." The essay gets published, and it's praised highly. I become famous and am considered an authority on Tibetan language and culture, although I know next to nothing about either. People say that guy BR has great learning and knows a difficult language, and he surely must have read deeply in Tibetan to pull out such an obscure quotation. None of which is true. In fact, I came across the proverb in a London Gents, where I found a book besides the loo or toilet, whichever you prefer. The scruffy black paperback was entitled The Black Book, by some guy called Lawrence Durrell, who happened to begin his story with that very proverb. But I say nothing about this and am quite content to let everyone think I am a scholar of Tibetan literature, who does his own research and finds his own material. Now, what did I do that was so wrong? Aren't Tibetan proverbs there for everyone to use? Is there a copyright on them? Of course not. Can't I do a little borrowing for literary purposes? Would M. Durrell mind? Surely not. No. I take the hard stand. I was wrong. I was not honest and did not attribute the actual source of my fame. I have deceived people. I have pretended to be someone I'm not. And something like this is what I see Lawrence Durrell doing with Michael Haag's material in Caesar's Vast Ghost. So, when talking about plagiarism, let us not hold the Master in too much veneration. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: James Gifford >Sent: Jun 1, 2007 8:49 AM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] Plagiarism > >Hello all, > >If I were to articulate my thoughts on Durrell's borrowings or plagiarisms >more thoroughly, it would take the following form, though I should hasten to >add that we do not currently have all the instances catalogued, so >everything all of us says is at least subject to some shift as patterns or >trends may emerge. > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Fri Jun 1 12:05:19 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 20:05:19 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism - and Caesar's Vast Ghost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0A89573D-1073-11DC-A9B5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> James has touched on a number of interesting points, but right now I will refer only to one -- the authorship of Caesar's Vast Ghost. In fact I raised the question of plagiarism (many moons ago, it seems now) because I was implicitly questioning how can one analyse and develop theories about a text when one does not know the origin and history of the text -- or how useful is such analysis and theorising without first establishing the authorship or authenticity of the text. Suppose there are parts of the Alexandria Quartet that were not written by Durrell at all? Suppose Durrell never wrote Caesar's Vast Ghost? Seeing two pages of my own writing in Caesar's Vast Ghost immediately alerted me to this problem and led me to ask questions. Was the inclusion of my text Durrell's own choice? Or, more radically, did Durrell write Caesar's Vast Ghost at all? And all the possibilities in between -- how much of it is his, how finished are those parts which may be his, who made the selection, who made the arrangement, etc. As it happens I have looked into this pretty thoroughly and have spoken to the suspects, starting with Durrell himself and working outwards, and I have also spoken with the relevant editors at Faber and Faber, and I have looked into Durrell's notebooks. And I have a pretty good idea of Durrell's state of health and his awareness at the time, of the contractual circumstances, and so on. In other words I have gone to original sources and have put the whole thing into context. Things written about Durrell which operate in a realm entirely detached from, indeed often contemptuous of, fundamental matters of authenticity are in my experience without interest or value. Having said that, I am also aware that there are people who are very much doing primary work and whose thoughts arise out of that; the interest of what they are doing immediately stands out. An awareness of very real contingencies affecting the creation of work, as for example James has set out below with regard to Caesar's Vast Ghost, is extremely important; it provides a touchstone for meaningful discussion of Durrell's work. :Michael On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 04:49 pm, James Gifford wrote: > I think the authorship of _Caesar's Vast Ghost_ is > perhaps disputable as well... I suspect ... [Durrell] had some very, > very substantial help in cobbling those > jottings together into the final volume. My understanding is that the > draft > he sent to Faber was a mess of loose papers, and I heard a rumour he > had > help patching it together. Given his last few years of hard drinking, > ill > health, and very likely a stroke ... I find this neither surprising > nor significant. > _Caesar's Vast Ghost_ is not > Durrell's finest work, and I suspect the stitches holding it together > may > not even be his own, though there are some absolutely lovely passages > that > strike me as typical of something I'd find in his later notebooks. > That > some of those sections were transcriptions from things he liked > surprises me > not at all -- I actually wonder if he was the one who consciously > chose to > include them. From holdsworth at rogers.com Fri Jun 1 11:50:09 2007 From: holdsworth at rogers.com (David Holdsworth) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:50:09 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's British citizenship In-Reply-To: <6781DFA0-1063-11DC-A9B5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <005601c7a47d$b187c200$6501a8c0@D13W0611> Michael Haag wrote: Had there been any significant number of people affected by this situation I would have thought that remedial action would have been taken by Parliament. Nothing I have read in the Foreign Office and Home Office files indicates that there was a wider problem. I would not be surprised if Durrell was the only one. I hope this is right but one should assume nothing in this field. An example. The Canadian Minister of Immigration announced in the last few days that the 1947 Citizenship Act will be revised. Why? Sixty years after its passage, it was discovered by the press and the Opposition that tens of thousands of people have been stripped of their citizenship since it was passed. They include the wives and children of Canadian soldiers who were born abroad, anyone born abroad whose parents failed to sign a Registration of Birth Abroad form, people considered to have been born out of wedlock to a non-Canadian mother and people who fall into several other categories. This came to light earlier this year when people assuming they were citizens applied for passports for the first time to meet toughened entry requirements for visitors to the United States. But...right up until last week, the Government claimed only a few hundred people had been affected and the problem was minor! David Holdsworth -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070601/c42781e4/attachment.html From ilyas.khan at crosby.com Fri Jun 1 10:49:04 2007 From: ilyas.khan at crosby.com (Ilyas Khan) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 01:49:04 +0800 Subject: [ilds] [BULK] Re: Plagiarism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: James, I want to voice the opinion of a lot of people on this email list and thank you for such a detailed, well written, reasonably balanced and comprehensive email. Your aside about exchanges with Michael is, in itself, enlightening, and I enjoyed the rest of the email. One of the few that I have decided to print and keep in my own notebook. Ilyas (in a wonderfully summery London - at least for now) On 6/1/07 11:49 PM, "James Gifford" wrote: > Hello all, > > If I were to articulate my thoughts on Durrell's borrowings or plagiarisms > more thoroughly, it would take the following form, though I should hasten to > add that we do not currently have all the instances catalogued, so > everything all of us says is at least subject to some shift as patterns or > trends may emerge. > > First, let me also belabour a point that I know has frustrated several list > members, and that's the tone of our interactions. Let me point out that I > know Michael Haag, who with his lovely wife very kindly had my wife and I to > dinner less than a week ago at an absolutely delicious Turkish restaurant. > I know tone over email is often not what it is in a personal conversation -- > we all take different approaches, and Michael's is fairly direct. Fair > enough -- he takes direct responses as well, with no harm. We have a few > people on the list who 'shoot from the hip,' and I just want to point out > that disagreement doesn't mean we fail to use each other's work (and cite > it) or continue to enjoy friendly discussions. This may be belabouring the > obvious, but as a moderator, I've heard a few worried comments about these > exchanges, so I wanted to make sure my thoughts on it were at least clear. > > So, as for plagiarism, I should respond in detail. Michael notes: > >> James' defence of Durrell's plagiarism as outlined >> below is yet another example of 'the academy's' >> willingness to think up idiotic rationalisations >> instead of arriving at a principled position. > > I'd disagree with this, and the dozens of students who have been given a > permanent mark of academic misconduct, failure on a course, and academic > probation (and in a few cases permanent expulsion) from the schools I've > taught at would disagree as well. I do not condone plagiarism, but an > author is in a different situation from that of a student writing papers. > For the record, every paper I've received over the past 4 years has been > required to pass an electronic plagiarism detector -- the result has been > (on average) a 10% rate of plagiarism (and filed cases) regardless of how I > stress this point to my students. Fine. We don't need those students. And > by the way, the quality of the school and admission standards has very > little to do with it -- one of the worst schools I've taught at with the > lowest admissions standards is the only one I haven't yet had a plagiarism > case for (though I had one borderline). > >> The principle may be that it is OK to steal texts, >> in which case they can start by stealing each other's >> PhD dissertations, and allow their students to steal >> their term papers from the internet. > > I think I've shown this is patently false and also a different matter. > Plagiarism is *not* on the rise in the academy -- the plagiarists are just > stupid enough to steal from something that is a searchable database... > Moreover, having worked in a few different industries, I can very > confidently state that the rate of intellectual theft or theft of > non-physical materials is much, much higher outside of the academy. I see > it in the news media *constantly*. In construction it is an absolutely > standard practice to quote a lower price if you have someone else's quote > for a contract in hand, and then to submit the verbatim quote form the > competitor with the lower price. Many industries would simply cease to > exist if they academy's standards were applied to intellectual property. > > But, Durrell is hardly in the same boat as students, reporters, or > construction crews, and I think the authorship of _Caesar's Vast Ghost_ is > perhaps disputable as well... > >> That is not the law, however, which unlike the >> academy takes a firm and straightforward view on >> what is right and wrong. I could easily use >> James' argument below to explain that I had broken >> into his home, stolen his belongings, but that it >> was perfectly all right as he would have known, or >> at some point was likely to find out, that I had >> done so. > > Again, while I appreciate Michael's thoughts here, these are on a different > order. Rather than breaking into my home by forced entry and stealing > unique properties that I could not replace, wouldn't this be more akin to my > inviting you in (next time you're in Edmonton!) only to find you liked my > decorating so much you copied it back in London? Perhaps neither of our > analogies here is apt... In the case under discussion, Durrell stole 2 > pages from a book written by a man who had already published his letters and > introduction to an E.M. Forster volume. This is not to say it's excusable, > but if I were to include 2 pages from one of Charles' articles in one of my > own, then ask him to review it... I would think it's at least cloudy. And, > I would hasten to add that our academic research that makes finding these > issues easier is greatly supported by a loose network that perpetuates > copyright violations by distributing materials that are not permitted > reproduction by anyone other than the copyright holder. Is this an > anarchist listserv? > > However, there are two other issues at work here as well: pastiche and the > notebook composition method (apart from whether or not Durrell even wrote > that book). Also, Peter Christensen refers to the interview in which > Durrell calls himself a burglar, and he makes much use of it in his article > "The Hazards of Intellectual Burglary," which I've cited at the end, and > which I've disagreed with strongly in print even though I still get along > well with Peter quite well and respect his work. > > Durrell's earlier texts contain a different kind of borrowing, which I would > agree with Bill is far closer to pastiche, and I think he got the habit from > none other than T.S. Eliot. After all, how many lines of "The Waste Land" > are original? Even the title is borrowed, but that is it's point. > Moreover, how do we read the scene in _Mountolive_ near the beginning, in > which Mountolive and Leila look at each other in love, and she recites > Ruskin's "Imperial Order"? It's a stolen bit from Ruskin, but I think > that's actually the point... Such things appear throughout the Quartet, > Revolt, and Quintet (as well as the Black Book and the other stand alone > volumes). To a degree, I'm inclined to see these as instances of pastiche, > especially given the political and aesthetic dimension that develops if they > are read as akin to allusions. How do we change as readers when we not only > recognize an instance of 'borrowing' but also recognize the source? I read > some of these as functioning very much like Henry Miller's stolen paragraph > from Joyce in _Tropic of Cancer_. It fits like Eliot's notion of Tradition, > which prompted so many of "The Waste Land" thefts. That element is a viable > artistic method with established purposes and reasons, put into motion by > none other than Durrell's senior mentor. > > The other element is his notebook composition style. He jotted just about > anything and everything into the notebooks. For instance, the famous > Gnostic suicide cult in the Quintet derives very simply from excerpts from > Serge Hutin's _Les Gnostiques_ combined with a momentarily famous teen > suicide club in Slovenia (not really, just a sudden spike in the suicide > rate that made people suspect some kind of club). Durrell just merged the > newspaper article with his jottings from Hutin's book to come up with a > brand new plot. It worked, and it worked well. In using his notebooks as > 'quarry books' (which Richard Pine has explored more thoroughly than anyone > else), Durrell often both repeated himself (internal allusion) and repeated > materials he'd copied into his notebooks that he'd transcribed rather than > actually written. That entails some risks, but it's a method that makes his > works what they are... It's certainly not the same as a student or scholar > copying pages and "forgetting" to cite. > > However, there's yet another problem to put into this puzzle, and that's the > temporal sequence. This is both a saving grace and damning evidence. > Durrell's first novel, _Pied Piper of Lovers_ contains materials taken from > a family member, and while reworked, I don't think it qualifies as pastiche. > Plagiarism is likely closer to the mark, though the materials take on a very > specific context in their new framework. That problem doesn't strike me as > being the case at all in the remaining materials until the very end of his > career. From _Panic Spring_ to _Quinx_, I am inclined to read borrowings as > pastiche, allusion, and a way of playing with Eliot's Tradition (as well as > a risk of his notebook method, which I'm inclined to see as a failing in > _Revolt_ and some points in the _Quartet_ but also as the greatest > innovation and strength in the _Quintet_ and _Clea_). Did Durrell violate > Freud's intellectual property rights? What about Groddeck, whom he > frequently took from in order to create plots? Is "Clueless" or "Bridget > Jones" in violation of Jane Austen's rights? > > That leaves the very end of the temporal stretch: _Caesar's Vast Ghost_. > Someone who has worked more closely on that volume and the notebooks for it > (Isabelle Keller, where are you??) can say more about this; however, I > suspect that Durrell continued his lifelong habit of scribbling in the > notebooks, but he had some very, very substantial help in cobbling those > jottings together into the final volume. My understanding is that the draft > he sent to Faber was a mess of loose papers, and I heard a rumour he had > help patching it together. Given his last few years of hard drinking, ill > health, and very likely a stroke (Ian is vague on this issue, but he does > describe the impact it had on Durrell, and the late interview in "Une Amitie > Parisienne" shows his slurring much to one side of his face -- Michael??), I > find this neither surprising nor significant. _Caesar's Vast Ghost_ is not > Durrell's finest work, and I suspect the stitches holding it together may > not even be his own, though there are some absolutely lovely passages that > strike me as typical of something I'd find in his later notebooks. That > some of those sections were transcriptions from things he liked surprises me > not at all -- I actually wonder if he was the one who consciously chose to > include them, especially something so long as 2 pages. If he had used it, > he must have known Michael would spot it immediately, perhaps even before it > went to press. > > As for passing judgement, I try to avoid that. Percy Shelley enjoyed > shooting song birds, Malcolm Lowry was a drunk, Elizabeth Smart would > consume anything that might give her a buzz, Byron (ahem), and so forth... > I still like their works, and use their biographies when appropriate, but I > don't like to judge the author, per se. I'll judge a student for plagiarism > in the classroom, but for an author who wrote a text I'm working on, it's > not part of what I'm reading to do -- I'd like to know when it's happening, > and it may change how I read, but to suggest I should stop reading an author > based on his or her ethics really isn't a matter I can be bothered with. As > I said, this notion is a 20th century invention -- as any musician can tell > you, borrowing was the norm until the past 150 years, ranging from theme & > variations to lifting entire movements. It was a trade, not a matter of > private ownership. Thank gawd someone violated Shakespeare's intellectual > property rights in the Quartos! I'm neither fully in favour of that nor > fully against it, though out of courtesy I do think Michael should have his > 1/100th of the royalties, even though those royalties likely exist due to > Durrell's name and previous works rather than those 2 pages. > > And with regard to current court cases, things like _The Da Vinci Code_ (for > which Michael is our resident expert), we have a very different matter. > That book could not exist were it not for _Holy Blood Holy Grail_, and its > plot is a loosely assembled wrapper for 'history' lessons almost exactly > drawn from Baigent's book and its spawn (reminds me of children's cartoons > where the protagonists need to stop every 2 minutes to solve a puzzle in > order to continue...). > > Oh, and here's what Christopher Hitchens has to say about Eliot's "The Waste > Land" and plagiarism: > > "Madison Cawein's poem 'Waste Land.' Cawein was as distant from Eliot, in > poetic terms, as it was possible to be. He was a Kentucky blues man and a > barroom versifier. However, like Eliot, he was fascinated by the Celtic > twilight and the search for the Grail. And his verses, with their haunting > title, did appear in the January 1913 edition of Poetry magazine. Since that > very issue also contained an essay by Ezra Pound on the new poets writing in > London, it seems more rather than less likely that Eliot would have read > it.' > > Also, someone named "Delphi" posted to a discussion board: "Bevis Hillier > compared Cawein's lines '...come and go/Around its ancient portico' with > Eliot's '?come and go/talking of Michelangelo'." That's actually in > "Prufrock" though... > > But, back to the issue at hand, Michael also notes: > >> Durrell has done this quite a lot. I had not known >> about the Prospero's Cell plagiarism until Richard Pine >> brought it to our attention. I will be looking into >> that thoroughly now. > > I'd often thought I'd use this tidbit of information, but anyone who cares > to give me a footnote is welcome to it -- Durrell sent a letter to the > Gennadius Library in Athens asking for books to borrow (he knew it wasn't a > lending library) in order to finish _Prospero's Cell_. He included the > list. They never catalogued the letter... I found it glued inside the > front board for the Gennadius' copy of _Prospero's Cell_. Have fun... > >> I have spotted quite a bit of close lifting if not >> outright plagiarism in Justine and other volumes of >> the Quartet > > This is not a surprise to me, and I wonder if it may be closer to pastiche? > Given the close ties to Eliot, the notebook method, and the duration of the > composition, isn't this more likely than "plagiarism" per se? Moreover, as > with Eliot, does this material take on a very different appearance in its > new context and position? But, there's more... > >> In fact it is pretty funny, because Manzaloui in his >> 'Curate's Egg: An Alexandrian Opinion of Durrell's >> Quartet' attacked Durrell for his supposedly faulty >> understanding of this and that, and it turns out that >> the fault lies largely in the material Durrell lifted >> from supposedly reputable sources -- this is what Bill >> demonstrated > > Manzalaoui (frequently mis-spelled in publications without the "a") is a > fine scholar, and he's taken up Durrell elsewhere in different ways, but > that is a funny article in general. One almost wonders if there would be a > 'right' way to write for Manzalaoui's perspective there... It does, > however, very notably precede Edward Said by a goodly stretch of time. > >> It is astounding how little 'the academy' troubles >> to examine source material in the case of Durrell, >> how its theorising is based almost entirely on >> principles of careless free association, self >> indulgence, or ideological mongering, unrestrained >> by reference to evidence, context, biography or the >> other usual constraints. There is plenty of work to >> be done. > > I both agree and disagree with several of these points. I might point out > first that tracking down source materials has actually been a large part of > my own contribution... As for the middle part, there's been an equal share > across the entire couple thousand critic works on Durrell -- some have been > exceptionally good and some have been exceptionally bad. I could say the > same for freelance authors, reviewers, or virtually anyone in any > profession. The problem does not lay in the academy and who is in (or not > in) it, but rather in the individuals doing the work. > > The "ideological mongering" has been remarkably mild in studies of Durrell, > and I'd like to see more political studies, albeit better ones and more > theoretically engaged with critical materials current in academic discourse. > I would hardly call that self indulgence for most, and I think virtually all > of it (well, perhaps 75%) has had at least a healthy dose of "reference to > evidence, context, biography or the other usual constraints." Simply put, > many of us just disagree, and that's fine with me. It's also very true that > the biographical materials have been very shoddy until the past decade, and > that has caused serious problems that continue even now. Each biography > corrects the one that came before, and that's how scholarship accrues -- > it's hardly fair to expect someone of 30 years ago to have done the work we > do now... We just keep building, correctly, developing, and so on. I'm glad > to contribute what I can to those who are making corrections and turning us > in new directions. There are errors in my previous work, and I don't > apologize for them -- I just correct them as I go along or hope the next > person will show where I've been mistaken (or where we simply disagree), and > I don't begrudge anyone for doing that. > > I hope that more carefully articulates a fast & rough idea of what I mean by > the allusive function of some materials, the context it comes from, the > importance of "when" in Durrell's writing career, and the host of other > issues that surround 'plagiarism' in Durrell, not the least of which being > the predominance of such things in 20th century writing. The pursuit of > source materials is extremely important, as Richard Pine's _Mindscape_ has > shown for Durrell (try to imagine Shakespeare or Classics without it!!), but > apart from a few incidents, I don't find it bothersome. I'll wait for the > evidence to prove me wrong... > > Michael, the next time we meet up, I owe you a pint! > > Cheers, > James > > > See: > > Christensen, Peter G. "The Hazards of Intellectual Burglary in Lawrence > Durrell's The Revolt of Aphrodite." _Studies in the Literary Imagination_ > 24.1 (1991): 41-56. > > Scott, Robert Ian. "T. S. Eliot and the Original Waste Land." _University of > Windsor Review_ 19.2 (1986): 61-64. > > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From leadale at mts.net Fri Jun 1 11:12:29 2007 From: leadale at mts.net (Lea Stogdale) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 13:12:29 -0500 Subject: [ilds] Colonial angst Message-ID: <01C7A44E.82AB0980.leadale@mts.net> David's comments are perceptive. As an ex-aussie now Canadian, I view this from both sides (of the world). We Canadians save our energy, enthusiasm and antagonism for the elephant whose bed (rock) we share. England has become a nice place to visit, albeit rather expensive, and still produces the best movies and humour (Borat excepted). Sports matter? Okay, and we are most passionate about sports shared with, and vigorously contested against, such countries as Norway, Russia and Sweden (curling, ice hockey and social justice). Canada's seminal war history battle was in WW I at Diep - overall a victory, and our troops' liberation of Netherlands in WW II is still celebrated and appreciated there as well as here. Although many young men, boys really, died, Diep was not the folly or the slaughter of Gallipoli. Gallipoli (in Turkey) is the most heart wrenching place to visit, as is the movie to watch; how to create a pacifist. Lea As to Canadians, I met one years ago in a bar in, strangely enough, Corfu and we discussed the relationship with the mother country. Whether Canada's proximity to the USA make a difference or not, I don't know, but there is less antagonism toward Britain than is felt by many Australians - of course much of this is fuelled by sporting rivalry on the rugby and cricket pitch and by nationalist movies like Gallipoli that depict the English as incompetent snobs who got thousands of Aussie boys killed in Turkey for no good reason. In point of fact, the Aussies were perfectly capable of their own incompetence and proved remarkable adept at useless heroics which saw hundreds of them killed. David Green No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.4/825 - Release Date: 5/30/07 3:03 PM From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Fri Jun 1 11:54:16 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 20:54:16 +0200 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's British citizenship In-Reply-To: <6781DFA0-1063-11DC-A9B5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <6781DFA0-1063-11DC-A9B5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <46606B58.3010101@interdesign.fr> "something like a billion people >> could show up on an afternoon" Who is kidding who???? With an average of 120 people per aeroplane that makes 83 thousand aeroplanes, each with 120 people on board, (=3458 aeroplanes per hour, or 57,6 aeroplanes per minute). Sorry about that, but somewhere something is not right in this discussion. Michael Haag wrote: > My guess is that it was a very minor problem. For those who had been > born in what had British India (Pakistan, India and Burma) and were > resident in the United Kingdom there was nothing they needed to know or > do. > > How many British patrials there were resident outside the UK I do not > know, nor do I know what efforts were made to alert them to the new > law. I believe that citizens of any country who are living abroad are > usually told to keep in touch with their embassy; that the > responsibility for being informed lies with the individual. > > I suppose the safest way of framing that law would have been to ensure > that it should not apply to British patrials resident abroad within a > certain period of time, that time being the valid life of their British > passports -- so that as one's passport expired, one was obliged to > renew it at an embassy or consulate where one would have been told, in > good time, that one needed to register under the new act. Had that > been the case, and had Durrell or anyone in his position renewed his > passport within that time, the problem would not have arisen. For all > I know the law was framed in that way, and that Durrell failed to renew > his passport when he should have -- one would have to look at his > passport, the provisions of the law, etc, to know for sure. > > Had there been any significant number of people affected by this > situation I would have thought that remedial action would have been > taken by Parliament. Nothing I have read in the Foreign Office and > Home Office files indicates that there was a wider problem. I would > not be surprised if Durrell was the only one. > > :Michael > > > > > > On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 05:21 pm, Bruce Redwine wrote: > > >>Thanks, Michael for the thorough explanation. I'm still puzzled by >>British law. Having recognized there was a problem with the Act of >>1966, why didn't Parliament correct it? Such as extend the time to >>register as a British citizen? Surely Lawrence Durrell wasn't the >>only UK "citizen" suddenly finding himself a foreigner in his own >>country, because of some arcane provision in the act. I guess the >>answer is obvious. Parliament did not consider that a "problem." >>This sounds a little like the current debate in the U.S. over >>immigration policy. >> >>Bruce >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >>>From: Michael Haag >>>Sent: Jun 1, 2007 8:56 AM >>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>>Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's British citizenship >>> >>>Durrell was British and held a British passport; at no point in his >>>life was he stateless. >>> >>>However, in the 1960s the British woke up to the fact that if everyone >>>who had been born in the British Empire chose to travel at once, and >>>in >>>particular chose to come to Britain, something like a billion people >>>could show up on an afternoon. And so a limitation was placed on >>>freedom of entry to Britain based on ancestry (father's birth in >>>Britain, I think -- sorry, I do not have the exact details to hand) or >>>established residence in Britain. Durrell's family -- his mother, >>>sister and brothers -- were all resident in Britain and were therefore >>>British under those previous arrangements and needed to do nothing; in >>>fact they were probably entirely unaware of the change in law. But >>>Durrell was living abroad, and he would have needed to register -- >>>simply by going to his nearest British consulate. But he was unaware >>>of the new conditions. He only discovered the situation some years >>>later when he went to get his passport renewed at the consulate at >>>Nice >>>(I think it was), and they explained that they could not give him a >>>British passport with free right of entry to Britain; instead he would >>>have to obtain a visa. His situation was something like that which >>>Bruce describes below. >>> >>>Durrell knew the British ambassador to Paris at the time and raised >>>the >>>matter with him, who in turn raised it with the Foreign Office and the >>>Home Office. I have looked at these papers. Everyone bent over >>>backwards to remedy the situation, but the law had been passed, >>>Durrell >>>had missed the boat, and it was decided at the highest level that an >>>exception could not be made for one man. What the authorities did do, >>>however, was to offer to put Durrell on the British consular payroll >>>(again at Nice, I think) -- I am writing this off the top of my head >>>without looking at my notes so I am not giving you the precise >>>legalities and justifications for all this -- which some how would >>>have >>>got round the problem; I think it was because it could then be argued >>>that this was an extension of Durrell's foreign service employment >>>which would have entitled him to automatic continuation as a British >>>citizen with a British passport with full privileges. All Durrell had >>>to do was to show up at the consulate very occasionally, once or twice >>>a month or whatever, probably have a drink, and then go home again. >>>But he chose not to accept that; quite simply he was too busy. He was >>>content enough to enter Britain as a British citizen with a British >>>passport but also with the need to carry a visa. Durrell was always >>>British; at no time was he stateless. >>> >>>In short, changing times and changing laws. Until the 1960s Durrell >>>was British and enjoyed the full benefits of British citizenship. >>>Afterwards Durrell was still British and still a British passport >>>holder but with the qualification that he would need a visa to enter >>>Britain. The British government did everything in its reasonable >>>powers to make good the situation. Durrell himself felt unable to >>>avail himself of their solution. There were no bad feelings. >>> >>>Incidentally, had Durrell been Irish this problem would not have >>>arisen. The definition of Irish nationality is that one parent or >>>grandparent was born in Ireland. Anyone satisfying that condition is >>>Irish at birth (whether they know it or not) and is entitled to an >>>Irish passport. Moreover under British law anyone of Irish >>>nationality >>>is entitled to live, work and vote in Britain. No visa is required. >>>I >>>believe that the same applies in reverse. >>> >>>:Michael >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 03:00 pm, wrote: >>> >>> >>>>I think Michael H can illuminate this - the 'revelation' in 2002 was, >>>>I think, in the Guardian newspaper (UK) and explained why LD did not, >>>>in fact, hold a full British passport. >>>>RP >>>> >>>>Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca wrote: >>>> >>>>< >>>>< Yes, can someone clear up this matter about LD's passport? I >>>>think >>>>it's false. Born of British parents in a British colony and not >>>>British? Sounds absurd. Moreover, as Lea asks, how could he have >>>>worked all those years in the British Foreign Office and not have >>>>been >>>>a UK citizen? I know that in Hong Kong, before 1997, people born in >>>>the Crown Colony were issued a special British passport, which looked >>>>like a regular passport but was actually a "travel document." It >>>>enabled the holder to travel as a UK citizen, but it did not give the >>>>bearer all the rights of one. I.e., the bearer could not claim >>>>residence in the UK. Is something like this the basis of the rumor? >>>>< >>>>< Bruce >>>>< >>>>< -----Original Message----- >>>>< >From: Lea Stogdale >>>>< >Sent: May 31, 2007 9:00 PM >>>>< >To: "'ilds at lists.uvic.ca'" >>>>< >Subject: [ilds] Stateless >>>>< > >>>>< >Durrell's nationless status was revealed in 2002-born in India >>>>yet >>>>not >>>>< >Indian and never holding British citizenship despite working as a >>>>British >>>>< >civil servant. >>>>< > >>>>< >What passport did he hold? >>>>< >Lea >>>>< > >>>>< >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>ILDS mailing list >>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >>_______________________________________________ >>ILDS mailing list >>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Fri Jun 1 13:40:40 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 21:40:40 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's British citizenship In-Reply-To: <46606B58.3010101@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: <5C620C12-1080-11DC-A27B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> OK, two afternoons. On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 07:54 pm, Marc Piel wrote: > "something like a billion people >>> could show up on an afternoon" > > Who is kidding who???? > > With an average of 120 people per aeroplane that > makes 83 thousand aeroplanes, each with 120 people > on board, (=3458 aeroplanes per hour, or 57,6 > aeroplanes per minute). Sorry about that, but > somewhere something is not right in this discussion. > > Michael Haag wrote: > >> My guess is that it was a very minor problem. For those who had been >> born in what had British India (Pakistan, India and Burma) and were >> resident in the United Kingdom there was nothing they needed to know >> or >> do. >> >> How many British patrials there were resident outside the UK I do not >> know, nor do I know what efforts were made to alert them to the new >> law. I believe that citizens of any country who are living abroad are >> usually told to keep in touch with their embassy; that the >> responsibility for being informed lies with the individual. >> >> I suppose the safest way of framing that law would have been to ensure >> that it should not apply to British patrials resident abroad within a >> certain period of time, that time being the valid life of their >> British >> passports -- so that as one's passport expired, one was obliged to >> renew it at an embassy or consulate where one would have been told, in >> good time, that one needed to register under the new act. Had that >> been the case, and had Durrell or anyone in his position renewed his >> passport within that time, the problem would not have arisen. For all >> I know the law was framed in that way, and that Durrell failed to >> renew >> his passport when he should have -- one would have to look at his >> passport, the provisions of the law, etc, to know for sure. >> >> Had there been any significant number of people affected by this >> situation I would have thought that remedial action would have been >> taken by Parliament. Nothing I have read in the Foreign Office and >> Home Office files indicates that there was a wider problem. I would >> not be surprised if Durrell was the only one. >> >> :Michael >> >> >> >> >> >> On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 05:21 pm, Bruce Redwine wrote: >> >> >>> Thanks, Michael for the thorough explanation. I'm still puzzled by >>> British law. Having recognized there was a problem with the Act of >>> 1966, why didn't Parliament correct it? Such as extend the time to >>> register as a British citizen? Surely Lawrence Durrell wasn't the >>> only UK "citizen" suddenly finding himself a foreigner in his own >>> country, because of some arcane provision in the act. I guess the >>> answer is obvious. Parliament did not consider that a "problem." >>> This sounds a little like the current debate in the U.S. over >>> immigration policy. >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>>> From: Michael Haag >>>> Sent: Jun 1, 2007 8:56 AM >>>> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>>> Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell's British citizenship >>>> >>>> Durrell was British and held a British passport; at no point in his >>>> life was he stateless. >>>> >>>> However, in the 1960s the British woke up to the fact that if >>>> everyone >>>> who had been born in the British Empire chose to travel at once, and >>>> in >>>> particular chose to come to Britain, something like a billion people >>>> could show up on an afternoon. And so a limitation was placed on >>>> freedom of entry to Britain based on ancestry (father's birth in >>>> Britain, I think -- sorry, I do not have the exact details to hand) >>>> or >>>> established residence in Britain. Durrell's family -- his mother, >>>> sister and brothers -- were all resident in Britain and were >>>> therefore >>>> British under those previous arrangements and needed to do nothing; >>>> in >>>> fact they were probably entirely unaware of the change in law. But >>>> Durrell was living abroad, and he would have needed to register -- >>>> simply by going to his nearest British consulate. But he was >>>> unaware >>>> of the new conditions. He only discovered the situation some years >>>> later when he went to get his passport renewed at the consulate at >>>> Nice >>>> (I think it was), and they explained that they could not give him a >>>> British passport with free right of entry to Britain; instead he >>>> would >>>> have to obtain a visa. His situation was something like that which >>>> Bruce describes below. >>>> >>>> Durrell knew the British ambassador to Paris at the time and raised >>>> the >>>> matter with him, who in turn raised it with the Foreign Office and >>>> the >>>> Home Office. I have looked at these papers. Everyone bent over >>>> backwards to remedy the situation, but the law had been passed, >>>> Durrell >>>> had missed the boat, and it was decided at the highest level that an >>>> exception could not be made for one man. What the authorities did >>>> do, >>>> however, was to offer to put Durrell on the British consular payroll >>>> (again at Nice, I think) -- I am writing this off the top of my head >>>> without looking at my notes so I am not giving you the precise >>>> legalities and justifications for all this -- which some how would >>>> have >>>> got round the problem; I think it was because it could then be >>>> argued >>>> that this was an extension of Durrell's foreign service employment >>>> which would have entitled him to automatic continuation as a British >>>> citizen with a British passport with full privileges. All Durrell >>>> had >>>> to do was to show up at the consulate very occasionally, once or >>>> twice >>>> a month or whatever, probably have a drink, and then go home again. >>>> But he chose not to accept that; quite simply he was too busy. He >>>> was >>>> content enough to enter Britain as a British citizen with a British >>>> passport but also with the need to carry a visa. Durrell was always >>>> British; at no time was he stateless. >>>> >>>> In short, changing times and changing laws. Until the 1960s Durrell >>>> was British and enjoyed the full benefits of British citizenship. >>>> Afterwards Durrell was still British and still a British passport >>>> holder but with the qualification that he would need a visa to enter >>>> Britain. The British government did everything in its reasonable >>>> powers to make good the situation. Durrell himself felt unable to >>>> avail himself of their solution. There were no bad feelings. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, had Durrell been Irish this problem would not have >>>> arisen. The definition of Irish nationality is that one parent or >>>> grandparent was born in Ireland. Anyone satisfying that condition >>>> is >>>> Irish at birth (whether they know it or not) and is entitled to an >>>> Irish passport. Moreover under British law anyone of Irish >>>> nationality >>>> is entitled to live, work and vote in Britain. No visa is required. >>>> I >>>> believe that the same applies in reverse. >>>> >>>> :Michael >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 03:00 pm, >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> I think Michael H can illuminate this - the 'revelation' in 2002 >>>>> was, >>>>> I think, in the Guardian newspaper (UK) and explained why LD did >>>>> not, >>>>> in fact, hold a full British passport. >>>>> RP >>>>> >>>>> Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> < >>>>> < Yes, can someone clear up this matter about LD's passport? I >>>>> think >>>>> it's false. Born of British parents in a British colony and not >>>>> British? Sounds absurd. Moreover, as Lea asks, how could he have >>>>> worked all those years in the British Foreign Office and not have >>>>> been >>>>> a UK citizen? I know that in Hong Kong, before 1997, people born >>>>> in >>>>> the Crown Colony were issued a special British passport, which >>>>> looked >>>>> like a regular passport but was actually a "travel document." It >>>>> enabled the holder to travel as a UK citizen, but it did not give >>>>> the >>>>> bearer all the rights of one. I.e., the bearer could not claim >>>>> residence in the UK. Is something like this the basis of the >>>>> rumor? >>>>> < >>>>> < Bruce >>>>> < >>>>> < -----Original Message----- >>>>> < >From: Lea Stogdale >>>>> < >Sent: May 31, 2007 9:00 PM >>>>> < >To: "'ilds at lists.uvic.ca'" >>>>> < >Subject: [ilds] Stateless >>>>> < > >>>>> < >Durrell's nationless status was revealed in 2002-born in India >>>>> yet >>>>> not >>>>> < >Indian and never holding British citizenship despite working >>>>> as a >>>>> British >>>>> < >civil servant. >>>>> < > >>>>> < >What passport did he hold? >>>>> < >Lea >>>>> < > >>>>> < >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ILDS mailing list >>>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ILDS mailing list >>> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From durrells at otenet.gr Fri Jun 1 13:45:53 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 23:45:53 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism - and Caesar's Vast Ghost References: <0A89573D-1073-11DC-A9B5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <00fd01c7a48d$d8c54760$0100000a@DSC01> As M H will know, (I'm sure) LD was, in ill-health, very much helped by Mary Byrne (is this in MacNiven? I dont have a copy to hand) in editing his CVG text into something that Fabers would accept. Most authors accept such help. I dont think the book requires too much textual criticism - just read it for its great text! - how much textual criticism is 'too much'? RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Haag" To: ; Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] Plagiarism - and Caesar's Vast Ghost > James has touched on a number of interesting points, but right now I > will refer only to one -- the authorship of Caesar's Vast Ghost. > > In fact I raised the question of plagiarism (many moons ago, it seems > now) because I was implicitly questioning how can one analyse and > develop theories about a text when one does not know the origin and > history of the text -- or how useful is such analysis and theorising > without first establishing the authorship or authenticity of the text. > Suppose there are parts of the Alexandria Quartet that were not written > by Durrell at all? Suppose Durrell never wrote Caesar's Vast Ghost? > > Seeing two pages of my own writing in Caesar's Vast Ghost immediately > alerted me to this problem and led me to ask questions. Was the > inclusion of my text Durrell's own choice? Or, more radically, did > Durrell write Caesar's Vast Ghost at all? And all the possibilities in > between -- how much of it is his, how finished are those parts which > may be his, who made the selection, who made the arrangement, etc. > > As it happens I have looked into this pretty thoroughly and have spoken > to the suspects, starting with Durrell himself and working outwards, > and I have also spoken with the relevant editors at Faber and Faber, > and I have looked into Durrell's notebooks. And I have a pretty good > idea of Durrell's state of health and his awareness at the time, of the > contractual circumstances, and so on. In other words I have gone to > original sources and have put the whole thing into context. > > Things written about Durrell which operate in a realm entirely detached > from, indeed often contemptuous of, fundamental matters of authenticity > are in my experience without interest or value. Having said that, I am > also aware that there are people who are very much doing primary work > and whose thoughts arise out of that; the interest of what they are > doing immediately stands out. An awareness of very real contingencies > affecting the creation of work, as for example James has set out below > with regard to Caesar's Vast Ghost, is extremely important; it provides > a touchstone for meaningful discussion of Durrell's work. > > :Michael > > > > On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 04:49 pm, James Gifford wrote: > >> I think the authorship of _Caesar's Vast Ghost_ is >> perhaps disputable as well... I suspect ... [Durrell] had some very, >> very substantial help in cobbling those >> jottings together into the final volume. My understanding is that the >> draft >> he sent to Faber was a mess of loose papers, and I heard a rumour he >> had >> help patching it together. Given his last few years of hard drinking, >> ill >> health, and very likely a stroke ... I find this neither surprising >> nor significant. >> _Caesar's Vast Ghost_ is not >> Durrell's finest work, and I suspect the stitches holding it together >> may >> not even be his own, though there are some absolutely lovely passages >> that >> strike me as typical of something I'd find in his later notebooks. >> That >> some of those sections were transcriptions from things he liked >> surprises me >> not at all -- I actually wonder if he was the one who consciously >> chose to >> include them. > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Fri Jun 1 14:08:49 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:08:49 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism - and Caesar's Vast Ghost In-Reply-To: <00fd01c7a48d$d8c54760$0100000a@DSC01> References: <0A89573D-1073-11DC-A9B5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <00fd01c7a48d$d8c54760$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070601210901.CUBI7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070601/5ebd37bf/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Fri Jun 1 14:29:06 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 22:29:06 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism - and Caesar's Vast Ghost In-Reply-To: <00fd01c7a48d$d8c54760$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <2042D084-1087-11DC-A27B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> This begs the question of who wrote the book and why it is being read. Leaving aside textual criticism, there is the simple matter of the reader buying a book which he thinks is by Lawrence Durrell. As Richard Pine himself wrote in his review of Caesar's Vast Ghost which appeared in Deus Loci in 1992, this is 'a beautiful book ... which will entrance and engage the general reader: for avid Durrellians it is a powerful restatement of many of his recurring themes. ... It touches all his previous work'. And yet we do not know how much of Caesar's Vast Ghost Durrell actually wrote. :Michael On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 09:45 pm, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > As M H will know, (I'm sure) LD was, in ill-health, very much helped > by Mary > Byrne (is this in MacNiven? I dont have a copy to hand) in editing his > CVG > text into something that Fabers would accept. Most authors accept such > help. > I dont think the book requires too much textual criticism - just read > it for > its great text! - how much textual criticism is 'too much'? > RP > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 1 15:42:04 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:42:04 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Borrowers Message-ID: <31516793.1180737724845.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Bill, you've done a study on LD's borrowings. What is your conclusion -- was he a borrower or a thief? Putting aside T. S. Eliot's quip about great writers stealing, how do you feel about that? Looking at some of the examples in your 1967 essay, I feel uncomfortable with Durrell's "borrowings." Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: May 31, 2007 7:05 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] Borrowers > >I seem to remember reading, many, many, years ago, that some writers >tend to be borrowers. Obviously Durrell is a borrower -- or if you >insist a thief -- a literary thief. Are there essays and books on >this subject? I mean on writers who borrow. I ask because I'm too >busy to work on this myself until I finish my final papers next week. > >Bill >*************************************** >W. L. Godshalk * >Department of English * >University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >513-281-5927 >*************************************** > > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Fri Jun 1 16:00:01 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 00:00:01 +0100 Subject: [ilds] irony? Message-ID: Richard Pine, in Lawrence Durrell: The Mindscape, 2nd edition, 2005, page 428, writes: 'Caesar's Vast Ghost can thus be read ... as Durrell's unwritten autobiography'. :Michael From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Fri Jun 1 14:43:21 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 23:43:21 +0200 Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism - and Caesar's Vast Ghost In-Reply-To: <2042D084-1087-11DC-A27B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <2042D084-1087-11DC-A27B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <466092F9.9080501@interdesign.fr> We do not know either how much he did not write!!!!! let us be a little balanced in this!!!! Michael, to my regret, I am beginning to wonder how you can pretend to write a biography of LD. It appears that you have preconceived ideas, that are not compatible with a non biased opinion! Surely a biographer must be neutral!!! Marc Piel Michael Haag wrote: > This begs the question of who wrote the book and why it is being read. > Leaving aside textual criticism, there is the simple matter of the > reader buying a book which he thinks is by Lawrence Durrell. As > Richard Pine himself wrote in his review of Caesar's Vast Ghost which > appeared in Deus Loci in 1992, this is 'a beautiful book ... which > will entrance and engage the general reader: for avid Durrellians it is > a powerful restatement of many of his recurring themes. ... It touches > all his previous work'. And yet we do not know how much of Caesar's > Vast Ghost Durrell actually wrote. > > :Michael > > > On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 09:45 pm, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > > >>As M H will know, (I'm sure) LD was, in ill-health, very much helped >>by Mary >>Byrne (is this in MacNiven? I dont have a copy to hand) in editing his >>CVG >>text into something that Fabers would accept. Most authors accept such >>help. >>I dont think the book requires too much textual criticism - just read >>it for >>its great text! - how much textual criticism is 'too much'? >>RP >> > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Fri Jun 1 17:32:57 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 01:32:57 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism - and Caesar's Vast Ghost In-Reply-To: <466092F9.9080501@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: Actually we know for certain that Durrell did not write two pages of Caesar's Vast Ghost. How much of the rest he did write, I do not know. I certainly have no preconceived view about that. But if one finds out that Durrell is not entirely the author of Caesar's Vast Ghost, and that he is not entirely the author of Prospero's Cell (which I am accepting from Richard Pine but will check myself), and when one reads Bill Godshalk's academic article about 'borrowings' in the Alexandria Quartet, then questions arise. I am not particularly objecting to this practice of Durrell's, but I am interested in identifying it, and I am also interested in understanding why it happens. Biography requires a spirit of inquiry. :Michael On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 10:43 pm, Marc Piel wrote: > We do not know either how much he did not write!!!!! > let us be a little balanced in this!!!! > > Michael, to my regret, I am beginning to wonder > how you can pretend to write a biography of LD. It > appears that you have preconceived ideas, that are > not compatible with a non biased opinion! Surely a > biographer must be neutral!!! > Marc Piel > > Michael Haag wrote: > >> This begs the question of who wrote the book and why it is being read. >> Leaving aside textual criticism, there is the simple matter of the >> reader buying a book which he thinks is by Lawrence Durrell. As >> Richard Pine himself wrote in his review of Caesar's Vast Ghost which >> appeared in Deus Loci in 1992, this is 'a beautiful book ... which >> will entrance and engage the general reader: for avid Durrellians it >> is >> a powerful restatement of many of his recurring themes. ... It touches >> all his previous work'. And yet we do not know how much of Caesar's >> Vast Ghost Durrell actually wrote. >> >> :Michael >> >> >> On Friday, June 1, 2007, at 09:45 pm, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: >> >> >>> As M H will know, (I'm sure) LD was, in ill-health, very much helped >>> by Mary >>> Byrne (is this in MacNiven? I dont have a copy to hand) in editing >>> his >>> CVG >>> text into something that Fabers would accept. Most authors accept >>> such >>> help. >>> I dont think the book requires too much textual criticism - just read >>> it for >>> its great text! - how much textual criticism is 'too much'? >>> RP >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 1 17:42:53 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:42:53 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Borrowers Message-ID: <31196092.1180744973785.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Marc, read William Godshalk's article, "Some Sources of Durrell's Alexandria Quartet," in Critical Essays on Lawrence Durrell, ed. Alan Warren Friedman, Boston: G.K. Hall, 1987. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Marc Piel >Sent: Jun 1, 2007 5:27 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] Borrowers > >It is about time that those that accuse, come out >with precise accusations (in detail). Generalisme >(?) is no longer acceptable nor credible!!! >Marc Piel > >Bruce Redwine wrote: > >> Bill, you've done a study on LD's borrowings. What is your conclusion -- was he a borrower or a thief? Putting aside T. S. Eliot's quip about great writers stealing, how do you feel about that? Looking at some of the examples in your 1967 essay, I feel uncomfortable with Durrell's "borrowings." >> >> Bruce >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >>>From: william godshalk >>>Sent: May 31, 2007 7:05 PM >>>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>>Subject: [ilds] Borrowers >>> >>>I seem to remember reading, many, many, years ago, that some writers >>>tend to be borrowers. Obviously Durrell is a borrower -- or if you >>>insist a thief -- a literary thief. Are there essays and books on >>>this subject? I mean on writers who borrow. I ask because I'm too >>>busy to work on this myself until I finish my final papers next week. >>> >>>Bill >>>*************************************** >>>W. L. Godshalk * >>>Department of English * >>>University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >>>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >>>513-281-5927 >>>*************************************** >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>ILDS mailing list >>>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Fri Jun 1 17:27:41 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 02:27:41 +0200 Subject: [ilds] Borrowers In-Reply-To: <31516793.1180737724845.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <31516793.1180737724845.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4660B97D.7050204@interdesign.fr> It is about time that those that accuse, come out with precise accusations (in detail). Generalisme (?) is no longer acceptable nor credible!!! Marc Piel Bruce Redwine wrote: > Bill, you've done a study on LD's borrowings. What is your conclusion -- was he a borrower or a thief? Putting aside T. S. Eliot's quip about great writers stealing, how do you feel about that? Looking at some of the examples in your 1967 essay, I feel uncomfortable with Durrell's "borrowings." > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- > >>From: william godshalk >>Sent: May 31, 2007 7:05 PM >>To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>Subject: [ilds] Borrowers >> >>I seem to remember reading, many, many, years ago, that some writers >>tend to be borrowers. Obviously Durrell is a borrower -- or if you >>insist a thief -- a literary thief. Are there essays and books on >>this subject? I mean on writers who borrow. I ask because I'm too >>busy to work on this myself until I finish my final papers next week. >> >>Bill >>*************************************** >>W. L. Godshalk * >>Department of English * >>University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >>Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >>513-281-5927 >>*************************************** >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>ILDS mailing list >>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Fri Jun 1 18:37:46 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 21:37:46 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism and borrowing -- some examples? In-Reply-To: <20070601210901.CUBI7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <0A89573D-1073-11DC-A9B5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <00fd01c7a48d$d8c54760$0100000a@DSC01> <20070601210901.CUBI7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070602013736.FTWJ3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070601/832b4206/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Fri Jun 1 18:40:49 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 21:40:49 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism - and Caesar's Vast Ghost In-Reply-To: <466092F9.9080501@interdesign.fr> References: <2042D084-1087-11DC-A27B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <466092F9.9080501@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: <20070602014048.FUCJ3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> >Surely a >biographer must be neutral!!! >Marc Piel I'm 70 years old and have never met a neutral person. That's not saying there isn't one. Perhaps I will meet one in a decade or two. Old Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Fri Jun 1 18:56:04 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 21:56:04 -0400 Subject: [ilds] textual examples In-Reply-To: <20070602014048.FUCJ3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <2042D084-1087-11DC-A27B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <466092F9.9080501@interdesign.fr> <20070602014048.FUCJ3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070602015604.DRPZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Bruce, when I first found how much Durrell borrowed, I was disturbed. At first, I defended his borrowings, and then I began to wonder what was Durrell's and what was from the books that Alan Thomas sent him. While I was calling for concrete examples, you and others were too. Let's look at what we come up with, and then discuss the question of borrowing and/or theft with specific examples in front of us. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Fri Jun 1 19:00:36 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 22:00:36 -0400 Subject: [ilds] irony -- isn't everything ironic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070602020046.DSAE7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070601/4f325524/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Fri Jun 1 19:10:12 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 03:10:12 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism and borrowing -- some examples? In-Reply-To: <20070602013736.FTWJ3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <65475553-10AE-11DC-ABC3-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> I did in fact provide the details for Caesar's Vast Ghost, but I will do so again. In the Faber hardback first edition see pages 130-131; in the Faber paperback edition see pages 129-131. These probably match the pages of the American editions. Or in the index look up Cleopatra and Actium. The relevant portion is from the paragraph beginning 'Antony's greatness was as a land-commander' to the paragraph ending 'the awful truth when it at last followed him to Egypt'. The copying is virtually word for word throughout; where there are variations, and they are very slight, they are inferior to my version which is found in my notes to E M Forster's Alexandria: A History and a Guide, published by Michael Haag, London 1982, pages 246-7 (revised London 1986, pages 247-8). I will be looking at the copy of Sophie Atkinson's An Artist in Corfu held at the British Library. As for Fedden's introduction to the Personal Landscape, here Durrell merely borrows and adapts; I mention it on page 295 of my Alexandria: City of Memory, where I write: He {Fedden] became an extension of Durrell's own experience of the country, as when Fedden wrote in his introduction to the anthology of the resident foreigner's sense of "cultural" and "psychological isolation" in Egypt, where "the current of thought sets towards Mecca and the European is inevitably swimming all the time against the stream", which later found its way into the Quartet where Darley speaks of "our isolation from the warm Gulf Stream of European feelings and ideas. All the currents slide away towards Mecca"'. For Fedden, see PL, 10; for Durrell's version, see Balthazar, AQ (omnibus edition), 280. Apart from adopting Fedden's prose, Durrell also adopted a fair measure of Fedden's sexual conquests as his own. :Michael On Saturday, June 2, 2007, at 02:37 am, william godshalk wrote: > It's all well and good to theorize about plagiarism. But perhaps what > we need are some concrete examples of Durrell's "borrowing."? Our > generalizations are in need of some specific examples. > > Michael, I don't recall that you told us which pages Durrell cribbed > from your writing. Could you tell us which ones? Did Durrell? alter > his borrowing at all? If so, could you give us a reference to your > work? > > Sophie Atkinson's An Artist in Corfu (1911) sells for around $300 > nowadays.? I was going to buy a copy, but our Classics Library copy > will have to do. Richard, can you suggest where to begin? > > I have sent for a copy of Robin Fedden's anthology to check Durrell's > borrowing from it. > > That Bill Godshalk gives some examples in "Some Sources." > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2776 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/dc4a2f78/attachment.bin From godshawl at email.uc.edu Fri Jun 1 19:20:06 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 22:20:06 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism and borrowing -- some examples? In-Reply-To: <65475553-10AE-11DC-ABC3-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <20070602013736.FTWJ3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <65475553-10AE-11DC-ABC3-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070602022035.FXAE3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070601/0f037426/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Fri Jun 1 19:24:25 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 03:24:25 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Fwd: Plagiarism and borrowing -- some examples? Message-ID: <61B432F9-10B0-11DC-ABC3-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> When I say the Faber paperback edition, I mean the little paperback without photographs. :M Begin forwarded message: > From: Michael Haag > Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 3:10:12 am Europe/London > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Subject: Re: [ilds] Plagiarism and borrowing -- some examples? > > I did in fact provide the details for Caesar's Vast Ghost, but I will > do so again. > > In the Faber hardback first edition see pages 130-131; in the Faber > paperback edition see pages 129-131. These probably match the pages > of the American editions. Or in the index look up Cleopatra and > Actium. The relevant portion is from the paragraph beginning > 'Antony's greatness was as a land-commander' to the paragraph ending > 'the awful truth when it at last followed him to Egypt'. The copying > is virtually word for word throughout; where there are variations, and > they are very slight, they are inferior to my version which is found > in my notes to E M Forster's Alexandria: A History and a Guide, > published by Michael Haag, London 1982, pages 246-7 (revised London > 1986, pages 247-8). From godshawl at email.uc.edu Fri Jun 1 19:30:31 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 22:30:31 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Fwd: Plagiarism and borrowing -- some examples? In-Reply-To: <61B432F9-10B0-11DC-ABC3-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <61B432F9-10B0-11DC-ABC3-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070602023110.FXTO3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070601/278ecbf9/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Fri Jun 1 19:52:15 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 03:52:15 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Fwd: Plagiarism and borrowing -- some examples? In-Reply-To: <20070602023110.FXTO3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <450130C2-10B4-11DC-A273-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> I published the first British edition (1982) on my own; when I produced a revised edition in 1986, Oxford University Press in America came in with me -- I subcontracted the US rights to them. My first edition was printed on good paper; the revised edition was printed on crappy paper because OUP were too cheap to pay for quality, and they were taking the larger part of the print-run. There are some virtues to the reprint, however, like the reproduction of Forster's hand-drawn map of Alexandria and some alterations and extensions to the Notes; but you will find all this and much more in Alexandria: City of Memory. :Michael On Saturday, June 2, 2007, at 03:30 am, william godshalk wrote: > Alexandria: A History and a Guide (ISBN: 019504066X) > E. M. Forster > Book Description: Oxford University Press, USA, 1986. > > Is this a coincidence, or did Oxford publish the revision? > > Bill > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1209 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/538fd40c/attachment.bin From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Fri Jun 1 20:05:12 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 04:05:12 +0100 Subject: [ilds] EMF In-Reply-To: <4660D839.7090704@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <1423D5D0-10B6-11DC-A273-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Since then Forster's Egyptian writings have been turned out as an Abinger edition under the general editorship of Frank Kermode. Published as ALEXANDRIA: A HISTORY AND A GUIDE and PHAROS AND PHARILLON, Andre Deutsch, London 2004, it was edited by Professor Miriam Allott (widow of Kenneth Allott). It is an immense work of scholarship by Miriam, who checked original papers, variant editions, tracked down references, and who has produced a book of something like 130 pages of fascinating footnotes. P N Furbank and I gave some help, and in fact I travelled with Miriam to Alexandria to show her around; she was working on her Abinger as I was working on my Alexandria: City of Memory, and we corresponded a lot during that time, trading information, and visited one another a lot (and drank a lot of champagne, of which Miriam keeps several cases in supply). I got The American University in Cairo Press to publish it for the Middle East. :Michael > > > On 6/1/2007 10:30 PM, william godshalk wrote: > > Alexandria: A History and a Guide (ISBN: 019504066X) > E. M. Forster > Book Description: Oxford University Press, USA, 1986. > > Is this a coincidence, or did Oxford publish the revision? > > Bill > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1515 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/9d36134d/attachment.bin From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 1 21:31:41 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 21:31:41 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] irony -- isn't everything ironic? Message-ID: <30982265.1180758701556.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070601/5f0785bd/attachment.html From dtart at bigpond.net.au Fri Jun 1 21:21:39 2007 From: dtart at bigpond.net.au (Denise Tart & David Green) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:21:39 +1000 Subject: [ilds] the bar as a centre of learning Message-ID: <015401c7a4cd$84a36460$0202a8c0@MumandDad> To David Holdsworth - the bar IS a centre of learning. Of course after a few dozen beers my Canadian friend and I came to the inevitable conclusion that without the Canadians and the Australians World War One would have lost by the British, that the Americans got off their bums too late to do much and the world would be a better place if Canada and Australia were a lot closer together. After that we walked out singing old heroic songs while having to think hard as to where our respective hotels were. Durrell may well have approved. And people on this list with names like Bruce Redwine make me confident that enjoying the fruit of vine is something many on this list share with LD. One of the things I have always liked about LD is that he was a vinuous soul inspired by wine and sun and women and warm, relaxed landscapes (why not?). In this vein I have always felt that LD would have liked Australia - the climate and colours and maybe even the people who are like Englishmen with the social anxiety and class consciousness removed. Sometimes when he describes Greece in Prospero's Cell and Reflections on a Marine Venus and Better Lemons I can smell, see and feel equivalent scenes in my own country. Unfortunately LD would have needed a passport to get in here. Perhaps that's why he never came down under. Given Bruce's comments, we should get a party together and head off to Provence after the Durrell conference in Paris next year. Maybe there is still the old slow coach of a train available rather than the TGV? A Durrell Tour springs to mind - perhaps ending up on St. Marie sur la Mare or even Greece itself. Durrell's island books also reveal strongly his love hate relationship with England. Characters such as the hard drinking, cantankerous officer Gideon and his friend Hoyle are endearingly rendered on the pages of Reflections on a Marine Venus in stark contrast the inept class of governors who mismanaged the Cyprus crisis descibed in Bitter Lemons. Indeed I believe Durrell lost his job there when he telephoned the governor while drunk one night and described him as 'an inept c--t'. And of course Durrell's Antrobus stories are an enormous send up of the British 'colonial' service. Enough said, it's chardonnay time. David Green Denise Tart & David Green 16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 +61 2 9564 6165 0412 707 625 dtart at bigpond.net.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/480c11c6/attachment.html From durrells at otenet.gr Fri Jun 1 22:35:43 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 08:35:43 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Plagiarism and borrowing -- some examples? References: <0A89573D-1073-11DC-A9B5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com><00fd01c7a48d$d8c54760$0100000a@DSC01><20070601210901.CUBI7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602013736.FTWJ3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <002d01c7a4d7$dcc79620$0100000a@DSC01> Well, I bought the DSC copy of ATkinson about 2 years ago for $80. ----- Original Message ----- From: william godshalk To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 4:37 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] Plagiarism and borrowing -- some examples? It's all well and good to theorize about plagiarism. But perhaps what we need are some concrete examples of Durrell's "borrowing." Our generalizations are in need of some specific examples. Michael, I don't recall that you told us which pages Durrell cribbed from your writing. Could you tell us which ones? Did Durrell alter his borrowing at all? If so, could you give us a reference to your work? Sophie Atkinson's An Artist in Corfu (1911) sells for around $300 nowadays. I was going to buy a copy, but our Classics Library copy will have to do. Richard, can you suggest where to begin? I have sent for a copy of Robin Fedden's anthology to check Durrell's borrowing from it. That Bill Godshalk gives some examples in "Some Sources." __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/3e038821/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Sat Jun 2 06:03:07 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 09:03:07 -0400 Subject: [ilds] the bar as a centre of learning In-Reply-To: <015401c7a4cd$84a36460$0202a8c0@MumandDad> References: <015401c7a4cd$84a36460$0202a8c0@MumandDad> Message-ID: <46616A8B.7040407@wfu.edu> On 6/2/2007 12:21 AM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote: > Durrell may well have approved. And people on this list with names > like Bruce Redwine make me confident that enjoying the fruit of vine > is something many on this list share with LD. One of the things I have > always liked about LD is that he was a vinuous soul inspired by wine > and sun and women and warm, relaxed landscapes (why not?). Good call, David. Even here at 8:17 AM I respond heartily to your night's note. > Ink become wine! Wine be blood! > O spirit, the leopard, eat body's food! > > -- THEMES HERALDIC [from Collected Poems: 1931-1974 (1985), > Faber and Faber] > Over a decade ago we established what has now become an On Miracle Ground tradition. The best hotels for OMG are hotels fitted out with roof gardens. The best roof gardens are fitted out with bars or quick access to bars. You will understand the logic of our logistics. Everything else can be negotiated or accommodated. The Cecil in Alex had already closed down its old rood garden by 1996. New regulations and a general tightening of local morals spelled its end. With dust comes thirst, but as Durrell says, the old Alex is gone. As Swinburne says--another brave tippler--"Thou hast conquered, O pale [theocratian]; the world has gone grey from thy breath." But we made close friends with the night staff at the Cecil and overcame provincial prejudices and I have many fond memories of sitting up until the street noise below went to bed, sipping my Aegyptian Stella, watching alien constellations sink themselves deep into the Eastern Harbor. What is the status of the Cecil's Roof Garden now, Michael? Do these photo from the web have any truth or is it all tourist propaganda? Cecil Hotel terrace http://edvista.com/holidays/03/egypt/cornichealex.jpg With good fortune, we continued the tradition in Cincinnati and on Corfu. On Corfu at the Cavalieri strong nights watching the swallows race about against the arc-lit sky above the fort while the children raced about below in the park. And Stoney had a guitar. What will Paris hold for us? Will we have a "closing of the brothels" redux when we arrive only to learn that some pale apparatchik in the EU has prohibited nightlife upon the roofs of Paris? More research is necessary. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/6b68d047/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cecilc02.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10736 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/6b68d047/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: C:\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image002.gif Type: image/gif Size: 27232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/6b68d047/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cornichealex.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 67690 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/6b68d047/attachment-0001.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: hotel-ter.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35047 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/6b68d047/attachment-0002.jpg From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sat Jun 2 06:52:16 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:52:16 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Cecil roof Message-ID: <79365ADC-1110-11DC-9272-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> The roof of the Hotel Cecil is open for meals and drinks and for its wonderful views over the Eastern Harbour and along the Corniche. Herewith a couple of photographs I took in 2003, I think it was. 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Name: Cecil roof dining.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 307363 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/b86c65fb/attachment-0003.jpg -------------- next part -------------- From slighcl at wfu.edu Sat Jun 2 07:22:59 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:22:59 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Cecil roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46617D43.7040502@wfu.edu> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > Cecil roof > From: > Michael Haag > Date: > Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:52:16 +0100 > To: > ilds at lists.uvic.ca > > To: > ilds at lists.uvic.ca > > > The roof of the Hotel Cecil is open for meals and drinks and for its > wonderful views over the Eastern Harbour and along the Corniche. > Herewith a couple of photographs I took in 2003, I think it was. > There are more of Alexandria in my book Alexandria Illustrated. I am happy to hear that the Cecil has made a return to some appearance of her former strength, Michael. I wonder if anyone has told Sofitel that there is precious little romance about all of those air conditioning units sitting in the middle of the balconies? Or perhaps those only sit outside the cheap rooms? The other day while cleaning out an old file cabinet I discovered a hotel manifest for the OMG 1996 conference. There they were, all of the old ILDS names along with room numbers. I will set that aside to keep against the day that OMG makes a return to Alex. The Memory Man. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/d63a7184/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sat Jun 2 09:08:58 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:08:58 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Cecil roof Message-ID: <9153627.1180800538753.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Great photos, Michael, but not in Alex Illus., regrettably. Did you ever think of doing a book of old 1930 photos of Alexandria, such as the beach party with the man in his dinner jacket and the bold woman? That kind of book I would really like to have. Over the years you see similar books come out, e.g., The Last Empire: Photographs of British India, 1855-1911 (Aperture, 1976). Maybe you could do a companion piece to a new edition of the Quartet. Not exactly Egytomania, which has a market, but close. Doesn't Routledge put out stuff like that? Lord Mountbatten of Burma isn't around to write you a preface, but I'm sure you could find some notable. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Haag >Sent: Jun 2, 2007 6:52 AM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] Cecil roof > >The roof of the Hotel Cecil is open for meals and drinks and for its >wonderful views over the Eastern Harbour and along the Corniche. >Herewith a couple of photographs I took in 2003, I think it was. There >are more of Alexandria in my book Alexandria Illustrated. > >:Michael > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sat Jun 2 09:34:07 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 17:34:07 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Cecil roof In-Reply-To: <9153627.1180800538753.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1547DED9-1127-11DC-9272-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> I am indeed producing a book of vintage photographs of Alexandria. It will be published next year. :Michael On Saturday, June 2, 2007, at 05:08 pm, Bruce Redwine wrote: > Great photos, Michael, but not in Alex Illus., regrettably. Did you > ever think of doing a book of old 1930 photos of Alexandria, such as > the beach party with the man in his dinner jacket and the bold woman? > That kind of book I would really like to have. Over the years you see > similar books come out, e.g., The Last Empire: Photographs of British > India, 1855-1911 (Aperture, 1976). Maybe you could do a companion > piece to a new edition of the Quartet. Not exactly Egytomania, which > has a market, but close. Doesn't Routledge put out stuff like that? > Lord Mountbatten of Burma isn't around to write you a preface, but I'm > sure you could find some notable. > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Haag >> Sent: Jun 2, 2007 6:52 AM >> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >> Subject: [ilds] Cecil roof >> >> The roof of the Hotel Cecil is open for meals and drinks and for its >> wonderful views over the Eastern Harbour and along the Corniche. >> Herewith a couple of photographs I took in 2003, I think it was. >> There >> are more of Alexandria in my book Alexandria Illustrated. >> >> :Michael >> > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Sat Jun 2 10:33:03 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 19:33:03 +0200 Subject: [ilds] the bar as a centre of learning In-Reply-To: <015401c7a4cd$84a36460$0202a8c0@MumandDad> References: <015401c7a4cd$84a36460$0202a8c0@MumandDad> Message-ID: <4661A9CF.203@interdesign.fr> Denise Tart & David Green wrote: "...after the Durrell conference in Paris next year..." can anyone tell me more about this please??? Thanks Marc Piel > > - the bar IS a centre of learning. Of course after a few dozen beers my > Canadian friend and I came to the inevitable conclusion that without the > Canadians and the Australians World War One would have lost by the > British, that the Americans got off their bums too late to do much and > the world would be a better place if Canada and Australia were a lot > closer together. After that we walked out singing old heroic songs while > having to think hard as to where our respective hotels were. > > Durrell may well have approved. And people on this list with names like > Bruce Redwine make me confident that enjoying the fruit of vine is > something many on this list share with LD. One of the things I have > always liked about LD is that he was a vinuous soul inspired by wine and > sun and women and warm, relaxed landscapes (why not?). In this vein > I have always felt that LD would have liked Australia - the climate and > colours and maybe even the people who are like Englishmen with the > social anxiety and class consciousness removed. Sometimes when he > describes Greece in Prospero's Cell and Reflections on a Marine Venus > and Better Lemons I can smell, see and feel equivalent scenes in my own > country. Unfortunately LD would have needed a passport to get in here. > Perhaps that's why he never came down under. > > Given Bruce's comments, we should get a party together and head off to > Provence after the Durrell conference in Paris next year. Maybe there is > still the old slow coach of a train available rather than the TGV? A > Durrell Tour springs to mind - perhaps ending up on St. Marie sur la > Mare or even Greece itself. > > Durrell's island books also reveal strongly his love hate relationship > with England. Characters such as the hard drinking, cantankerous officer > Gideon and his friend Hoyle are endearingly rendered on the pages of > Reflections on a Marine Venus in stark contrast the inept class of > governors who mismanaged the Cyprus crisis descibed in Bitter Lemons. > Indeed I believe Durrell lost his job there when he telephoned the > governor while drunk one night and described him as 'an inept c--t'. And > of course Durrell's Antrobus stories are an enormous send up of the > British 'colonial' service. > > Enough said, it's chardonnay time. > > David Green > > > > > Denise Tart & David Green > 16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 > > +61 2 9564 6165 > 0412 707 625 > dtart at bigpond.net.au > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Sat Jun 2 10:38:28 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 19:38:28 +0200 Subject: [ilds] the bar as a centre of learning In-Reply-To: <46616A8B.7040407@wfu.edu> References: <015401c7a4cd$84a36460$0202a8c0@MumandDad> <46616A8B.7040407@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <4661AB14.9080301@interdesign.fr> The roof garden is alive and active and very popular despite the smell of petrol from the continuous streem of 20 to 30 year old cars all day and all night along the corniche. Marc Piel slighcl wrote: > On 6/2/2007 12:21 AM, Denise Tart & David Green wrote: > >> Durrell may well have approved. And people on this list with names >> like Bruce Redwine make me confident that enjoying the fruit of vine >> is something many on this list share with LD. One of the things I have >> always liked about LD is that he was a vinuous soul inspired by wine >> and sun and women and warm, relaxed landscapes (why not?). > > Good call, David. Even here at 8:17 AM I respond heartily to your > night's note. > >> Ink become wine! Wine be blood! >> O spirit, the leopard, eat body's food! > >> >> -- THEMES HERALDIC [from Collected Poems: 1931-1974 (1985), >> Faber and Faber] >> > Over a decade ago we established what has now become an On Miracle > Ground tradition. The best hotels for OMG are hotels fitted out with > roof gardens. The best roof gardens are fitted out with bars or quick > access to bars. You will understand the logic of our logistics. > Everything else can be negotiated or accommodated. > > The Cecil in Alex had already closed down its old rood garden by 1996. > New regulations and a general tightening of local morals spelled its > end. With dust comes thirst, but as Durrell says, the old Alex is > gone. As Swinburne says--another brave tippler--"Thou hast conquered, O > pale [theocratian]; the world has gone grey from thy breath." But we > made close friends with the night staff at the Cecil and overcame > provincial prejudices and I have many fond memories of sitting up until > the street noise below went to bed, sipping my Aegyptian Stella, > watching alien constellations sink themselves deep into the Eastern > Harbor. What is the status of the Cecil's Roof Garden now, Michael? Do > these photo from the web have any truth or is it all tourist propaganda? > Cecil Hotel terrace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://edvista.com/holidays/03/egypt/cornichealex.jpg > > > > > With good fortune, we continued the tradition in Cincinnati and on > Corfu. On Corfu at the Cavalieri strong nights watching the swallows > race about against the arc-lit sky above the fort while the children > raced about below in the park. And Stoney had a guitar. > > > > What will Paris hold for us? Will we have a "closing of the brothels" > redux when we arrive only to learn that some pale apparatchik in the EU > has prohibited nightlife upon the roofs of Paris? More research is > necessary. > > Charles > > -- > ********************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > Wake Forest University > slighcl at wfu.edu > ********************** > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From slighcl at wfu.edu Sat Jun 2 10:46:42 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 13:46:42 -0400 Subject: [ilds] the bar as a centre of learning In-Reply-To: <4661A9CF.203@interdesign.fr> References: <015401c7a4cd$84a36460$0202a8c0@MumandDad> <4661A9CF.203@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: <4661AD02.7050505@wfu.edu> On 6/2/2007 1:33 PM, Marc Piel wrote: >Denise Tart & David Green wrote: > >"...after the Durrell conference in Paris next >year..." > >can anyone tell me more about this please??? > Sure, Marc. I will look forward to the possibility of seeing you there. Any responses to the announced topic? Charles *On Miracle Ground XV (2008)* The site for On Miracle Ground XV (2008) will be Paris, France.The conference will focus on the artistic intertextuality between Durrell's writing and other art forms, especially painting and music, and the relationship between Durrell's texts and the development of scientific research at the time. Finally, the conference will consider Durrell's attitude toward World War II and the R?sistance. The conference will be hosted by the University of Paris X (Nanterre). For further information, you may contact Corinne Alexandre-Garner, UFR Anglo-Americaine, Universite Paris X, 200 Avenue de la R?publique, 92001 Nanterre, France. -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/982e8d4f/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Sat Jun 2 10:59:27 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 13:59:27 -0400 Subject: [ilds] cecil In-Reply-To: <4661AB14.9080301@interdesign.fr> References: <015401c7a4cd$84a36460$0202a8c0@MumandDad> <46616A8B.7040407@wfu.edu> <4661AB14.9080301@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: <4661AFFF.1050208@wfu.edu> On 6/2/2007 1:38 PM, Marc Piel wrote: >The roof garden is alive and active and very >popular despite the smell of petrol from the >continuous streem of 20 to 30 year old cars all >day and all night along the corniche. > Welcome news. In 1996 the roof garden was very seedy. Bar boarded up. Flowerbeds gone to dying weeds. But a good protected place to put on swimsuits and even bikinis and escape the hothouse world of conference sessions and the noisy stress of the street. William Burroughs compared the incessant weaving and dodging and honking of the Mexico City taxis to bats with their echo-location. That certainly is also true of Cairo. No collisions. Amazing I came back to the Cecil from a stroll one evening and witnessed the most vivid celebration. A horse ridden by a veiled bride clomping up the front steps into the lobby while all amount of tambourines and ululation echoed about. The hotel staff had put out carpets, so she rode right in and dismounted in front of the lift. Imagine all of this refracted in the mirrors on the stairs and you will have an idea of the effect. A wedding party evidently. Is that common in Alex? For the longest time I thought I dreamed this, but in Victoria I met with another Durrellian who said, o yes, she was there too. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 2 11:41:28 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:41:28 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Comments on some borrowings Message-ID: <20070602184127.FOMR7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/ebfb82f8/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Sat Jun 2 12:02:50 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:02:50 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Comments on some borrowings In-Reply-To: <20070602184127.FOMR7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <20070602184127.FOMR7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <4661BEDA.7060502@wfu.edu> On 6/2/2007 2:41 PM, william godshalk wrote: > And why this exclamation: "Alas for such hopes!" Given the associative context, I hear Durrell returning to Cavafy's "The God Abandons Antony": Your fortunes having failed you now, *Hopes gone aground*, a lifetime of desires Turned into smoke. An allusion allowed, I think, between poet and reader or poet and poet. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/ace893b3/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 2 12:04:04 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:04:04 -0400 Subject: [ilds] the bar as a centre of learning In-Reply-To: <4661AB14.9080301@interdesign.fr> References: <015401c7a4cd$84a36460$0202a8c0@MumandDad> <46616A8B.7040407@wfu.edu> <4661AB14.9080301@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: <20070602190403.HVAR3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/126421d2/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 2 12:08:26 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:08:26 -0400 Subject: [ilds] hopes gone aground In-Reply-To: <4661BEDA.7060502@wfu.edu> References: <20070602184127.FOMR7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <4661BEDA.7060502@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070602190844.FQDY7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/b58d2a78/attachment.html From ilyas.khan at crosby.com Sat Jun 2 12:15:30 2007 From: ilyas.khan at crosby.com (Ilyas Khan) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 03:15:30 +0800 Subject: [ilds] Time and Justine In-Reply-To: <465C979D.5060009@wfu.edu> Message-ID: Charles, in the note below you ask people about Justine ? and how they read now compared to their first encounter. You also make the point about the rhythm and ?music? that appeals now more than simple narrative or even (dare I say it) plot. I first picked up the quartet when I was in my late teens. The impact was immediate, and even now there is more than a trace of tangible memory. Picking up a particular version of the quartet is almost as bitter sweet as hearing a song or seeing some old sepia stained photograph. Like many others I also continue to be amazed at how much I missed (or maybe how much has since been revealed) through the text over the years. I have gotten into the habit of revisiting the quartet after a period of time, and most recently (prompted by getting up the nerve to be more active on this email list) I?ve lost myself in Justine and Balthazar over the past couple of weeks. Some of my fellow members of the list might identify with this small example of the pleasure of revisiting the quartet. I remember once going through the book, methodically noting down those words that I did not understand, and being mature enough (and sensible enough ?) to organise my reading so that I could go back and appreciate the writing as it was meant to be understood. I must have been 21, I think, and words such as ratiocinative, integument hebetude, paturition and the luciously addictive crepuscular (?.......dense crepuscular evening?) first made their introduction into my vocabulary when I still had hair enough to wear it to my shoulders. Knowing what will happen in the coming paragraphs and pages has not (yet...) made my pilgrimages any less enjoyable. Oh yes, Charles, one thing that I think is probably a bit different from you, is that my reading tends to be of the books as a whole, rather than forays into specfic parts from time to time. That must, I believe, have some impact on our appreciation and perception of the story being told. Ilyas On 5/30/07 5:14 AM, "slighcl" wrote: > On 5/29/2007 3:57 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >> >> Way back on 5/25/07, aeons of discourse ago, Ed Hungerford wrote a query >> about time in Justine. He found some difficulties or inconsistencies in >> Durrell's time scheme. Despite the Quartet being about "space and time," I'm >> beginning to think Durrell was just being careless, not in the negligent >> sense, but literally he "cared not" about the Fourth Dimension. Which is >> really my sense of time in the Quartet. It's really quite timeless, >> strangely timeless, which is not the right word, maybe something closer to >> atemporality in the midst of a particular spot in time. Anyone else feel >> this way? > I will agree that in the sense that at this later stage in my reading of > Justine I tend to allow it all to be pretty impressionistic, to enjoy the > novel as a tidelike wash of flux and reflux. I used to go in for sleuthing > and mapping out the intricacies of narrative and time. That attracts me less > these days. So when Justine and Darley pause at the Summer Palace in order > to discuss Pursewarden's suicide as if we all already understood what had > happened, I note the momentary trembling of my curiosity and unknowing but > then go right back to the immediate moment. (The art of pretence: as if I > had not been right there before.) > > Some of that preference comes from a surfeit of -ims--whether modernism, > postmodernism, or what have you. I simply could not hear and enjoy Justine > anymore. Some of that preference is an aesthetic sensibility shaped by my > preference for poetry over narrative fiction. When I read for my own > pleasure, I do not require that Justine has anything more than music for me. > Sometimes I discover that a sound and shape washes up some surprising notion, > carried into the text from Durrell's readings in history or philosophy or > letters. If I pick up some line or phrase that catches my fancy in that way, > a little piece of drift carried to me out from the "real world," I know that I > can turn to a number of scholars, historians, and biographers who can help me > understand as need be. There is much good work there, and I am pleased to > know some of those workers. > > I know that you and others will recognize the following passage, Bruce, but > what I am talking about in regard to how I read Justine today in 2007 (versus > 1997 or 1987) stems from my interest in Durrell's Aesthetic, his (early) > characteristic style and sensibility of words, and my attempt to forget a > great deal of clutter that I have gone through. Does anyone else recall > Durrell's best chapter opening? >> >> >>> >>>> The sea's curious workmanship: bottle-green glass sucked smooth and porous >>>> by the waves: vitreous shells: wood stripped and cleaned, and bark swollen >>>> with salt: a bead: sea-charcoal, brittle and sticky: fronds of >>>> bladder-wart with their greasy marine skin and reptilian feel: rocks, >>>> gnawed and rubbed: sponges, heavy with tears: amber: bone: the sea. >>>> >>>> ("Ionian Profiles," Prospero's Cell) >>> > Again, that is what I value as pattern and craft and sensibility when I read > Justine and Prospero's Cell &c. for pleasure in 2007. It is in a sense an > extension of my current concentration on tracking and editing Durrell's > composition process for the Quartet in notebook, typescript, and print. It is > at present somewhat willfully myopic--my other teaching and writing centers on > Victorian Poetry, not modernist texts--and it in no way precludes the other > approaches to reading and discussing Durrell. For example, I am most > interested at all times in what Jamie and Beatrice and Michael teach me when > we meet and talk. None of them pursues Durrell in quite the same way. I > think what I value is ardency and focus and whatever opens up the > conversation, rather than closes it. > > I would be interested to hear how other readers of Durrell have found their > reading experiences to change over time. My twenty-years is not so very long > compared to most of you. Bruce has spoken of reading Durrell in a 1958 > moment. Who else? Ed? Brewster? Ilyas? Anna? What is it all about for you > now? > > Charles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/6fd3b395/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 2 12:27:01 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:27:01 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell Message-ID: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/26c263cd/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 2 12:44:39 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:44:39 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell In-Reply-To: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070602194437.HOOP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> "The procession is led by many devotees in blue cassocks, bearing, for their saint, very beautiful old gilt Venetian lanterns on long poles, enormous banners of crimson, gold-edged and tasselled, and rows of huge candles, crowned with gold and wreathed with gay ribbon streamers, each candle in its leather baldric making a strong man's burden with frequent changes." "The procession is led by the religious novices clad in blue cassocks and carrying Venetian lanterns on long poles; they are followed by banners, heavy and tasselled, and rows of candles crowned with gold and trailing streamers. These huge pieces of wax are carried in a leather baldric -- slung, as it were at the hip." Okay, which one was written by Durrell? Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 2 12:59:34 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:59:34 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell again In-Reply-To: <20070602194437.HOOP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602194437.HOOP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070602195943.HPMW9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Okay, this is a short one: "Paramythia in Epirus gave them [Saints Augusta and Spiridion] refuge until 1456 when they were brought across the blue waters of the gulf to Corcyra, and laid in the chapel of Michael the Archangel." "George remained with his sacred charge at Paramythion on the opposite coast of Epiros till 1456, when he brought the two bodies to Corfu, and placed them in the church of the Archangel Michael." Durrell or Atkinson? Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 2 13:23:09 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:23:09 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell again one more time In-Reply-To: <20070602195943.HPMW9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602194437.HOOP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602195943.HPMW9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070602202328.HRHT9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> " . . . he took part in the great council of Nicea, where he gave miraculous testimony of the then disputed doctrine of the Trinity by casting a brick (which he must have secreted about his person) to the ground, where it immediately gushed fire and water in one." "He was one of the fathers at the famous council of Nicaea, A. D. 325, and it is recorded that there he gave miraculous testimony to the disputed doctrine of the Holy Trinity; for a brick which he had in his right hand was suddenly hurled to the ground and from it a stream of water and fire burst forth, thus demonstrating the Trinity in unity." This is an easy one. I'll stop now. But it does seem that our boy was being a bit free with poor Sophie's book. *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From slighcl at wfu.edu Sat Jun 2 13:30:05 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:30:05 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Time and Justine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4661D34D.4050806@wfu.edu> On 6/2/2007 3:15 PM, Ilyas Khan wrote: > Oh yes, Charles, one thing that I think is probably a bit different > from you, is that my reading tends to be of the books as a whole, > rather than forays into specfic parts from time to time. That must, I > believe, have some impact on our appreciation and perception of the > story being told. Yes, Ilyas, I think the two sorts of reading would naturally make for different perceptions and pleasures, Ilyas. Right now I am reading straight through /Justine /along with the RG, pretending, or trying to recall my past innocence. Still to my delight the discoveries come. But at other times when I read the /Quartet--/and /Justine /especially--I read in the fashion that you have suggested. Dipping. /Sortes Durrellianae/. Favorite parts taken in assortment, like a little collection of sea glass or pieces of jade kept here beside my reading chair. Durrell's narrative form grants me this, I think. The sections set apart in circle or asterisk that we have now distinguished by the term "episode" seem at once /arranged /and /portable/--made for re-arrangement like leaves fallen from a notebook, or like old photos taken from a file and spread out across the table. The whole of /Justine /becomes then "workpoints," "consequential data." And you mentioned the tactile experience of reading Durrell's books. I have to say that I do not favor reading the /Quartet /in omnibus format. Taking up and setting down /Justine/, /Balthazar/, /Mountolive/, and /Clea /as individual volumes gets me closer to what I imagine Darley doing at the start of /Justine/, /Balthazar/, and /Clea/. An argument can be made that the /Justine /belonging to the /Quartet /collected in one volume in 1962 is a significantly different "work" from the stand-alone /Justine /of 1957. Michael has made a very persuasive case based on biographical and textual evidence for how Durrell's conception of /Justine /changed, and my own editorial work documenting the /Justine /notebooks, typescripts, and published variants leads me in the same direction. I still chuckle when I see Durrell's working titles for his /Balthazar /notebooks at Carbondale or the corrected typescript out on the west coast. "Justine II." The whole of the series belonged to Justine at one point and did not suffer other characters' names as titles. And although I am using a 1964 Faber "paper covered" edition of /Justine /for the RG, my best reading is always accomplished in the 1957 Faber cloth first/first /Justine/. I identify with your confession about taking down unfamiliar words, Ilyas. I did that too. In my old Duttons I still have the notecards from when I was 15. "Cicatrice." "Phthisic." &c. The real puzzler that I never wrote down--"love." Keep reading and sharing-- Charles ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/52ba464b/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Sat Jun 2 13:38:58 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:38:58 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell again In-Reply-To: <20070602195943.HPMW9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602194437.HOOP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602195943.HPMW9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <4661D562.40700@wfu.edu> On 6/2/2007 3:59 PM, william godshalk wrote: > >Durrell or Atkinson? > > Okay, Father Bill. If you announce--like a bad priest murmuring illicit heresies to a blushing novitiate--that Durrell borrowed the following two favorite moments from "The Island Saint" chapter I think that I will just have to defenestrate: "The long conversations held between Augusta and Spiridion" as they were smuggled "slung" in "two shapeless sacks." "Prayer is a form of bargaining" Maybe I should not know. CLS -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/cf87a8e0/attachment.html From durrells at otenet.gr Sat Jun 2 13:42:03 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 23:42:03 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell References: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <014a01c7a556$7a04bd90$0100000a@DSC01> As I already said, there are many 'liftings' of passages from Atkinson to Prospero's Cell - maybe as many as a dozen (I cant check now as people are arriving to discuss Writer's Reputation') RP ----- Original Message ----- From: william godshalk To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:27 PM Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell "For immediately after the Archbishop and a chanting priest is the saint himself, borne by six sailors, under an old canopy of crimson and gold, supported by six silver poles and six priests" (Sophie Atkinson, An Artist in Corfu p. 178). Durrell's version (PC p. 31): "The Saint is borne by six sailors under an old canopy of crimson and gold, supported by six silver poles and flanked by six priests." I found this sitting on a bench in the Classics Library. Bill __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/4da38836/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 2 13:51:08 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:51:08 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell again In-Reply-To: <4661D562.40700@wfu.edu> References: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602194437.HOOP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602195943.HPMW9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <4661D562.40700@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070602205137.HVCA9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/54ff188f/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 2 13:56:14 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:56:14 -0400 Subject: [ilds] the need for specific comparison in Akinson versus Durrell In-Reply-To: <014a01c7a556$7a04bd90$0100000a@DSC01> References: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <014a01c7a556$7a04bd90$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070602205652.FWNV7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Richard, Yes, you did tell us, but you didn't tell us in detail. If we are going to judge Larry's penchant for borrowing, we should know what kind of borrowing he did. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Sat Jun 2 14:03:28 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 23:03:28 +0200 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell again one more time In-Reply-To: <20070602202328.HRHT9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602194437.HOOP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602195943.HPMW9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602202328.HRHT9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <4661DB20.1090303@interdesign.fr> I don't want to be one sided, althought it was pointed out earlier, probably rightly, that we are not able to be neutral, but surely these are a question of "source" and "influence" much more than plagia! Michael's case seems more doubtfull, but so far in my opinion it is alone. It is also possible to say that LD wrote better than those who were his sources!!! How about some remarks on that? Marc Piel william godshalk wrote: > " . . . he took part in the great council of Nicea, where he gave > miraculous testimony of the then disputed doctrine of the Trinity by > casting a brick (which he must have secreted about his person) to the > ground, where it immediately gushed fire and water in one." > > "He was one of the fathers at the famous council of Nicaea, A. D. > 325, and it is recorded that there he gave miraculous testimony to > the disputed doctrine of the Holy Trinity; for a brick which he had > in his right hand was suddenly hurled to the ground and from it a > stream of water and fire burst forth, thus demonstrating the Trinity > in unity." > > This is an easy one. > > I'll stop now. But it does seem that our boy was being a bit free > with poor Sophie's book. > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Sat Jun 2 14:05:01 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 23:05:01 +0200 Subject: [ilds] Borrowers In-Reply-To: <31196092.1180744973785.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <31196092.1180744973785.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4661DB7D.6060502@interdesign.fr> Thanks Bruce, butI have searched and not found this article! Marc Piel Bruce Redwine wrote: > Marc, read William Godshalk's article, "Some Sources of Durrell's Alexandria Quartet," in Critical Essays on Lawrence Durrell, ed. Alan Warren Friedman, Boston: G.K. Hall, 1987. > > Bruce From slighcl at wfu.edu Sat Jun 2 14:31:35 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 17:31:35 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell again In-Reply-To: <20070602205137.HVCA9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602194437.HOOP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602195943.HPMW9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <4661D562.40700@wfu.edu> <20070602205137.HVCA9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <4661E1B7.8020702@wfu.edu> On 6/2/2007 4:51 PM, william godshalk wrote: >> * >> * >> >> *"The long conversations held between Augusta and Spiridion" as >> they were smuggled "slung" in "two shapeless sacks." >> * >> > > You are safe on this one, I think. I wonder if this is a Jurgen-type > /conversation./ I discern a bit of the knowing skepticism of Norman Douglas in the way Durrell has a lark with the petty histories of inanimate relics and their devotees. "/I cannot believe/ however that such a long journey can have passed without some exchange of theological pleasantries." "They must"/"the air must have"/"the incessant halts must have." Very "musty," indeed. That string of subjunctive marks out a good bit of fancy or "belief." And the writer is not one of the incurious "hagiographers." Believers lack a certain imaginative flair necessary to bring the saints' lives to life, but the skeptic can do it. A "mock" in the older and newer sense. A wonderful passage. An article of my belief. Will it last? But since I am packing I am unable to unpack the memory with specific ND moments. Strachey can also do this sort skeptical fantastic with his subjects' lives. I am thinking about the life of Gordon, the way Strachey inhabits a believer's fanaticism--creatively supposing his moments of crisis--without believing himself. C&c. -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/3f89905b/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sat Jun 2 15:46:46 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 23:46:46 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell In-Reply-To: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <243C0D9A-115B-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Atkinson is better than Durrell, in this instance at least. :Michael On Saturday, June 2, 2007, at 08:27 pm, william godshalk wrote: > "For immediately after the Archbishop and a chanting priest is the > saint himself, borne by six sailors, under an old canopy of crimson > and gold, supported by six silver poles and six priests" (Sophie > Atkinson, An Artist in Corfu p. 178). > > Durrell's version (PC p. 31): "The Saint is borne by six sailors under > an old canopy of crimson and gold, supported by six silver poles and > flanked by six priests." > > I found this sitting on a bench in the Classics Library. > > Bill_______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 764 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/abed75e0/attachment.bin From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sat Jun 2 16:18:38 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 00:18:38 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson Message-ID: <97E7A80A-115F-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> As a matter of biographical interest, I wonder if anyone has knowledge or views on the following: 1) As far as I have been aware, Durrell escaped from Greece in 1941 with little or nothing; I am not aware that he brought any notebooks with him to Egypt nor a copy of Atkinson. 2) Durrell wrote Prospero's Cell in Alexandria. 3) Either point 1 is wrong and Durrell did somehow bring some things to Egypt, or Durrell was able to obtain a copy of Atkinson in Egypt. What do you know or think? :Michael From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Sat Jun 2 15:55:55 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 00:55:55 +0200 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell In-Reply-To: <243C0D9A-115B-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <243C0D9A-115B-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <4661F57B.1040900@interdesign.fr> I guess it is very subjective, but the LD version, even here, flows better, is smoother: read it out aloud and you will surely hear the difference. I vote LD without any doubt! One is flat, one is rich! Marc Piel Michael Haag wrote: > Atkinson is better than Durrell, in this instance at least. > > :Michael > > > > On Saturday, June 2, 2007, at 08:27 pm, william godshalk wrote: > > "For immediately after the Archbishop and a chanting priest is the > saint himself, borne by six sailors, under an old canopy of crimson > and gold, supported by six silver poles and six priests" (Sophie > Atkinson, An Artist in Corfu p. 178). > > Durrell's version (PC p. 31): "The Saint is borne by six sailors > under an old canopy of crimson and gold, supported by six silver > poles and flanked by six priests." > > I found this sitting on a bench in the Classics Library. > > Bill_______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From leadale at mts.net Sat Jun 2 15:57:16 2007 From: leadale at mts.net (Lea Stogdale) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 17:57:16 -0500 Subject: [ilds] ILDS RG 3.3 Durrell's notebooks? Message-ID: <01C7A53F.759AF240.leadale@mts.net> In this paragraph (p 156 F&F 1963 in Britain), is Durrell describing his own process of making notes for Justine? "But while the gallery of historical dreams held the foreground of his mind the figures of his friends and acquaintances, palpable and real, walked backwards and forwards among them, among the ruins of classical Alexandria, inhabiting an amazing historical space-time as living personages. Laboriously, like an actuary's clerk he recorded all he saw and felt in his diaries,..." Lea No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 6/01/07 11:22 AM From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 16:51:35 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 17:51:35 -0600 Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson In-Reply-To: <97E7A80A-115F-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Michael asks: > 1) ... Durrell escaped from Greece in 1941 > with little or nothing; I am not aware that > he brought any notebooks with him ... > > 2) Durrell wrote Prospero's Cell in Alexandria. > > 3) Either point 1 is wrong and Durrell did > somehow bring some things to Egypt, or Durrell > was able to obtain a copy of Atkinson in Egypt. Durrell compiled some significant amount of material for _Prospero's Cell_ while (or before) he was on Kalamata -- his letter in the Gennadius glued inside their copy of _Prospero's Cell_ speaks of "completing" a book about Corfu, not starting one... His address was listed as on Kalamata. This would imply that Durrell left Greece with at least some of his notebooks, or perhaps more plausibly, he'd sent a draft to Thomas who then sent it back to him. Perhaps he had a small batch of notebooks with him on Kalamata and lost those that had remained on Corfu. Similarly, Jay Brigham records an incident involving Durrell's drafts of a poem lost when he went to Egypt, and I'm pasting my transcript of it below. For anyone who is interested, the Brigham papers are now housed at the University of Victoria in the McPherson Library's Special Collections. I've attached a brief draft of the description of the materials here. Alas, my transcript of the letter from the Gennadius went away a few years ago when a large batch of papers left my apartment with some of my own notes unknowingly included. I do, however, still have my transcripts from the Seferis papers there. Cheers, James ------------- Excerpt from a Brigham notebook 18.10.74 Sir John Waller recalls how he first published, and later first met Lawrence Durrell. During his final year at Oxford, Sir John edited Kingdom Come, one or two issues being subsidised by a wealthy girl-friend, and the rest (?) by Marie Stopes [Stapes?], inventor of the contraceptive. At this time, Nicholas Moore (?) was editing Seven, another review, and when it collapsed for want of funds, Waller received ?stacks of stuff? which he was invited to use or not in Kingdom Come. Among this material was Lawrence Durrell?s ?In Arcadia?, which duly appeared in the 4th issue of Kingdom Come. When Waller enlisted after coming down from Oxford, he was posted first to the Middle East and Cairo. The only civilian he knew there was Herbert Howarth, who had a teaching post at Fuad University. During his first leave, Waller stayed with the Howarths and found that Lawrence and Nancy Durrell (and, I presume Penelope Berengaria) were also staying in the house. Waller happened to be carrying about the back issues of Kingdom Come. Coincidentally, Durrell had no copy of ?In Arcadia?, so he copied the poem from the 4th issue of the magazine. Waller tells an interesting anecdote about the naming of Durrell?s first child. The Durrell?s had been evacuated from Greece on a British vessel (gun boat? Destroyer?), and a picture of Pinky had appeared in a (London?) paper over the caption ?Berengaria With the Boys?. Waller does not think he ever saw the picture but, having heard about it, he asked Durrell why she had been named ?Penelope Berengaria? (Sir John recalls it as ?Berengaria Penelope?). Durrell replied, ?Well, if she wants to be the lady editor of a newspaper, Berengaria Durrell suits the position. And, if she wants to be a writer, Penelope Durrell will do.? On the subject of Personal Landscape, Sir John is reticent. He had nothing to do with the magazine because, he says, he did not get on at all well with Terence Tiller. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Brigham Collection.doc Type: application/msword Size: 72704 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/90633f7f/attachment.doc From slighcl at wfu.edu Sat Jun 2 17:09:57 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 20:09:57 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <466206D5.3060102@wfu.edu> On 6/2/2007 7:51 PM, James Gifford wrote: >Michael asks: > > > >>1) ... Durrell escaped from Greece in 1941 >>with little or nothing; I am not aware that >>he brought any notebooks with him ... >> >>2) Durrell wrote Prospero's Cell in Alexandria. >> >>3) Either point 1 is wrong and Durrell did >>somehow bring some things to Egypt, or Durrell >>was able to obtain a copy of Atkinson in Egypt. >> >> > >Durrell compiled some significant amount of material for _Prospero's Cell_ >while (or before) he was on Kalamata -- his letter in the Gennadius glued >inside their copy of _Prospero's Cell_ speaks of "completing" a book about >Corfu, not starting one... His address was listed as on Kalamata. This >would imply that Durrell left Greece with at least some of his notebooks, or >perhaps more plausibly, he'd sent a draft to Thomas who then sent it back to >him. Perhaps he had a small batch of notebooks with him on Kalamata and >lost those that had remained on Corfu. > In a completely associative way that is only of uncertain historical-bibliographical value, I am recalling the evocative description of how in the Alexandrian Postscript to /Prospero's Cell /L recalls how he and N "destroyed" the books and notebooks before abandoning the house. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/f20c0580/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sat Jun 2 17:13:26 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 20:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell again one more time Message-ID: <29921176.1180829606438.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Undoubtedly Durrell wrote better than most of his sources. I don't think, however, that's any excuse for plagiarism. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Marc Piel >Sent: Jun 2, 2007 5:03 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell again one more time > >I don't want to be one sided, althought it was >pointed out earlier, probably rightly, that we are >not able to be neutral, but surely these are a >question of "source" and "influence" much more >than plagia! Michael's case seems more doubtfull, >but so far in my opinion it is alone. It is also >possible to say that LD wrote better than those >who were his sources!!! How about some remarks on >that? >Marc Piel > >william godshalk wrote: > >> " . . . he took part in the great council of Nicea, where he gave >> miraculous testimony of the then disputed doctrine of the Trinity by >> casting a brick (which he must have secreted about his person) to the >> ground, where it immediately gushed fire and water in one." >> >> "He was one of the fathers at the famous council of Nicaea, A. D. >> 325, and it is recorded that there he gave miraculous testimony to >> the disputed doctrine of the Holy Trinity; for a brick which he had >> in his right hand was suddenly hurled to the ground and from it a >> stream of water and fire burst forth, thus demonstrating the Trinity >> in unity." >> >> This is an easy one. >> >> I'll stop now. But it does seem that our boy was being a bit free >> with poor Sophie's book. >> *************************************** >> W. L. Godshalk * >> Department of English * >> University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >> Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >> 513-281-5927 >> *************************************** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sat Jun 2 17:16:40 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 01:16:40 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, James, for that. I am pretty sure that Durrell escaped in circumstances that prevented him from carrying anything. But it is possible, as was his habit later, that he had sent some stuff to Alan Thomas who then sent it back to Egypt when requested. I wonder if Durrell's early effort of a book about Corfu bore any resemblance to the final Prospero's Cell. :Michael On Sunday, June 3, 2007, at 12:51 am, James Gifford wrote: > Michael asks: > >> 1) ... Durrell escaped from Greece in 1941 >> with little or nothing; I am not aware that >> he brought any notebooks with him ... >> >> 2) Durrell wrote Prospero's Cell in Alexandria. >> >> 3) Either point 1 is wrong and Durrell did >> somehow bring some things to Egypt, or Durrell >> was able to obtain a copy of Atkinson in Egypt. > > Durrell compiled some significant amount of material for _Prospero's > Cell_ > while (or before) he was on Kalamata -- his letter in the Gennadius > glued > inside their copy of _Prospero's Cell_ speaks of "completing" a book > about > Corfu, not starting one... His address was listed as on Kalamata. > This > would imply that Durrell left Greece with at least some of his > notebooks, or > perhaps more plausibly, he'd sent a draft to Thomas who then sent it > back to > him. Perhaps he had a small batch of notebooks with him on Kalamata > and > lost those that had remained on Corfu. > > Similarly, Jay Brigham records an incident involving Durrell's drafts > of a > poem lost when he went to Egypt, and I'm pasting my transcript of it > below. > For anyone who is interested, the Brigham papers are now housed at the > University of Victoria in the McPherson Library's Special Collections. > I've > attached a brief draft of the description of the materials here. > > Alas, my transcript of the letter from the Gennadius went away a few > years > ago when a large batch of papers left my apartment with some of my own > notes > unknowingly included. I do, however, still have my transcripts from > the > Seferis papers there. > > Cheers, > James > > ------------- > Excerpt from a Brigham notebook > > 18.10.74 > > Sir John Waller recalls how he first published, and later first met > Lawrence > Durrell. During his final year at Oxford, Sir John edited Kingdom > Come, one > or two issues being subsidised by a wealthy girl-friend, and the rest > (?) by > Marie Stopes [Stapes?], inventor of the contraceptive. > At this time, Nicholas Moore (?) was editing Seven, another > review, and when it collapsed for want of funds, Waller received > ?stacks of > stuff? which he was invited to use or not in Kingdom Come. Among this > material was Lawrence Durrell?s ?In Arcadia?, which duly appeared in > the 4th > issue of Kingdom Come. > When Waller enlisted after coming down from Oxford, he was > posted first to the Middle East and Cairo. The only civilian he knew > there > was Herbert Howarth, who had a teaching post at Fuad University. > During his > first leave, Waller stayed with the Howarths and found that Lawrence > and > Nancy Durrell (and, I presume Penelope Berengaria) were also staying > in the > house. Waller happened to be carrying about the back issues of Kingdom > Come. > Coincidentally, Durrell had no copy of ?In Arcadia?, so he copied the > poem > from the 4th issue of the magazine. > Waller tells an interesting anecdote about the naming of > Durrell?s first child. The Durrell?s had been evacuated from Greece on > a > British vessel (gun boat? Destroyer?), and a picture of Pinky had > appeared > in a (London?) paper over the caption ?Berengaria With the Boys?. > Waller > does not think he ever saw the picture but, having heard about it, he > asked > Durrell why she had been named ?Penelope Berengaria? (Sir John recalls > it as > ?Berengaria Penelope?). Durrell replied, ?Well, if she wants to be > the lady > editor of a newspaper, Berengaria Durrell suits the position. And, if > she > wants to be a writer, Penelope Durrell will do.? > On the subject of Personal Landscape, Sir John is > reticent. He > had nothing to do with the magazine because, he says, he did not get > on at > all well with Terence Tiller. > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 17:23:15 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:23:15 -0600 Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson In-Reply-To: <466206D5.3060102@wfu.edu> Message-ID: Charles notes: > I am recalling the evocative description of > how in the Alexandrian Postscript to > Prospero's Cell L recalls how he and N > "destroyed" the books and notebooks before > abandoning the house. Alas, it's another famous Durrell lie (I think), much like finding Henry Miller's _Tropic of Cancer_ in a public toilet (it was actually given to him) or _The Black Book_ being his first book rather than his third... Durrell tells how the White House was blasted apart by German bombs, as was the Shrine of Saint Arsenius (if I recall correctly) in his "A Landmark Gone," neither of which is true, even though it makes for a more poetical story. I think Durrell was keen for his audience to appreciate some of the trauma of the war, much like he apparently had intended for _Reflections on a Marine Venus_ before the infamous cuts. --James Durrell, Lawrence "A Landmark Gone." Middle East Anthology. Eds. John Waller and Erik de Mauny. London: Lindsay Drummond, Ltd., 1946. 19-21. From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sat Jun 2 17:29:26 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 01:29:26 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7C06756A-1169-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Is the pre-cuts MS of Marine Venus lying around anywhere? Any idea, James, of the precise nature of the cuts? :Michael On Sunday, June 3, 2007, at 01:23 am, James Gifford wrote: > Charles notes: > >> I am recalling the evocative description of >> how in the Alexandrian Postscript to >> Prospero's Cell L recalls how he and N >> "destroyed" the books and notebooks before >> abandoning the house. > > Alas, it's another famous Durrell lie (I think), much like finding > Henry > Miller's _Tropic of Cancer_ in a public toilet (it was actually given > to > him) or _The Black Book_ being his first book rather than his third... > Durrell tells how the White House was blasted apart by German bombs, > as was > the Shrine of Saint Arsenius (if I recall correctly) in his "A Landmark > Gone," neither of which is true, even though it makes for a more > poetical > story. I think Durrell was keen for his audience to appreciate some > of the > trauma of the war, much like he apparently had intended for > _Reflections on > a Marine Venus_ before the infamous cuts. > > --James > > > Durrell, Lawrence "A Landmark Gone." Middle East Anthology. Eds. John > Waller > and Erik de Mauny. London: Lindsay Drummond, Ltd., 1946. 19-21. > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 2 14:23:44 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 17:23:44 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell again one more time In-Reply-To: <4661DB20.1090303@interdesign.fr> References: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602194437.HOOP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602195943.HPMW9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602202328.HRHT9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <4661DB20.1090303@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: <20070603005354.GIMX7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Marc, I have with regard to Atkinson's book just given the parallel passages. You'll note that in some cases I have not identified who wrote what. Each of us can decide what label to give Durrell's . . . call them what you will. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 2 18:16:08 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 21:16:08 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson stands in for personal memories In-Reply-To: <7C06756A-1169-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <7C06756A-1169-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070603011556.ILZS9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> I wonder if Durrell uses Atkinson because he himself did NOT experience the processions and festivals that he wanted to write about. I know that I've written this before, but Jean Franchette told me that Durrell was not the adventurous sort. He'd rather sit in the chair than go to the Gypsy conclave. He needed sources because he had no memories to draw from. I wish someone would convince me otherwise. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 2 18:27:00 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 21:27:00 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell adds to his sources In-Reply-To: <4661E1B7.8020702@wfu.edu> References: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602194437.HOOP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602195943.HPMW9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <4661D562.40700@wfu.edu> <20070602205137.HVCA9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <4661E1B7.8020702@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070603012707.GKFI7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/9af56f32/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 2 18:32:28 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 21:32:28 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Alan Thomas sends LD books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070603013216.ITKR3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> > >It is possible, as was his habit later, that he had sent some stuff to Alan >Thomas who then sent it back to Egypt when requested. From my present state of ignorance, I'm second that. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat Jun 2 19:39:24 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 22:39:24 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Landscape with Olive Trees In-Reply-To: <20070603013216.ITKR3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <20070603013216.ITKR3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070603023942.GOXK7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070602/3b84cfda/attachment.html From durrells at otenet.gr Sun Jun 3 00:03:02 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:03:02 +0300 Subject: [ilds] the need for specific comparison in Akinson versus Durrell References: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><014a01c7a556$7a04bd90$0100000a@DSC01> <20070602205652.FWNV7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <001501c7a5ad$3a40a9b0$0100000a@DSC01> I don;t have time (how Durrellian is that!?) but they were all listed in a paper someone delivered at OMG 2000. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "william godshalk" To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:56 PM Subject: [ilds] the need for specific comparison in Akinson versus Durrell > Richard, > > Yes, you did tell us, but you didn't tell us in detail. If we are > going to judge Larry's penchant for borrowing, we should know what > kind of borrowing he did. > > Bill > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From durrells at otenet.gr Sun Jun 3 00:05:47 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:05:47 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson References: <97E7A80A-115F-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <002b01c7a5ad$9c37db20$0100000a@DSC01> I have been led to understand that he read it here, in the Corfu Reading Society. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Haag" To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 2:18 AM Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson > As a matter of biographical interest, I wonder if anyone has knowledge > or views on the following: > > 1) As far as I have been aware, Durrell escaped from Greece in 1941 > with little or nothing; I am not aware that he brought any notebooks > with him to Egypt nor a copy of Atkinson. > > 2) Durrell wrote Prospero's Cell in Alexandria. > > 3) Either point 1 is wrong and Durrell did somehow bring some things to > Egypt, or Durrell was able to obtain a copy of Atkinson in Egypt. > > What do you know or think? > > :Michael > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From durrells at otenet.gr Sun Jun 3 00:08:24 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:08:24 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson References: Message-ID: <005b01c7a5ad$f9f4be40$0100000a@DSC01> If Marie Stopes 'invented' the contraceptive, she must be very, very much older than any of us thought! RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Gifford" To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 2:51 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson Michael asks: > 1) ... Durrell escaped from Greece in 1941 > with little or nothing; I am not aware that > he brought any notebooks with him ... > > 2) Durrell wrote Prospero's Cell in Alexandria. > > 3) Either point 1 is wrong and Durrell did > somehow bring some things to Egypt, or Durrell > was able to obtain a copy of Atkinson in Egypt. Durrell compiled some significant amount of material for _Prospero's Cell_ while (or before) he was on Kalamata -- his letter in the Gennadius glued inside their copy of _Prospero's Cell_ speaks of "completing" a book about Corfu, not starting one... His address was listed as on Kalamata. This would imply that Durrell left Greece with at least some of his notebooks, or perhaps more plausibly, he'd sent a draft to Thomas who then sent it back to him. Perhaps he had a small batch of notebooks with him on Kalamata and lost those that had remained on Corfu. Similarly, Jay Brigham records an incident involving Durrell's drafts of a poem lost when he went to Egypt, and I'm pasting my transcript of it below. For anyone who is interested, the Brigham papers are now housed at the University of Victoria in the McPherson Library's Special Collections. I've attached a brief draft of the description of the materials here. Alas, my transcript of the letter from the Gennadius went away a few years ago when a large batch of papers left my apartment with some of my own notes unknowingly included. I do, however, still have my transcripts from the Seferis papers there. Cheers, James ------------- Excerpt from a Brigham notebook 18.10.74 Sir John Waller recalls how he first published, and later first met Lawrence Durrell. During his final year at Oxford, Sir John edited Kingdom Come, one or two issues being subsidised by a wealthy girl-friend, and the rest (?) by Marie Stopes [Stapes?], inventor of the contraceptive. At this time, Nicholas Moore (?) was editing Seven, another review, and when it collapsed for want of funds, Waller received Ostacks of stuff? which he was invited to use or not in Kingdom Come. Among this material was Lawrence Durrell?s ?In Arcadia?, which duly appeared in the 4th issue of Kingdom Come. When Waller enlisted after coming down from Oxford, he was posted first to the Middle East and Cairo. The only civilian he knew there was Herbert Howarth, who had a teaching post at Fuad University. During his first leave, Waller stayed with the Howarths and found that Lawrence and Nancy Durrell (and, I presume Penelope Berengaria) were also staying in the house. Waller happened to be carrying about the back issues of Kingdom Come. Coincidentally, Durrell had no copy of ?In Arcadia?, so he copied the poem from the 4th issue of the magazine. Waller tells an interesting anecdote about the naming of Durrell?s first child. The Durrell?s had been evacuated from Greece on a British vessel (gun boat? Destroyer?), and a picture of Pinky had appeared in a (London?) paper over the caption ?Berengaria With the Boys?. Waller does not think he ever saw the picture but, having heard about it, he asked Durrell why she had been named OPenelope Berengaria? (Sir John recalls it as OBerengaria Penelope?). Durrell replied, OWell, if she wants to be the lady editor of a newspaper, Berengaria Durrell suits the position. And, if she wants to be a writer, Penelope Durrell will do.? On the subject of Personal Landscape, Sir John is reticent. He had nothing to do with the magazine because, he says, he did not get on at all well with Terence Tiller. __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From durrells at otenet.gr Sun Jun 3 00:12:26 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:12:26 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson stands in for personal memories References: <7C06756A-1169-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070603011556.ILZS9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <007001c7a5ae$8a5de3d0$0100000a@DSC01> I find it almost impossible to believe that D did not witness the processions in Corfu Town - after all, it seems pretty conclusive that he attended the Spatharis Karaghiozi performance(s) along with Stephanides. And if he didnt do festivals, what was/were his source(s) for Ste Marie-de-la-Mer? RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "william godshalk" To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 4:16 AM Subject: [ilds] Atkinson stands in for personal memories >I wonder if Durrell uses Atkinson because he himself did NOT > experience the processions and festivals that he wanted to write > about. I know that I've written this before, but Jean Franchette told > me that Durrell was not the adventurous sort. He'd rather sit in the > chair than go to the Gypsy conclave. He needed sources because he had > no memories to draw from. > > I wish someone would convince me otherwise. > > Bill > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From durrells at otenet.gr Sun Jun 3 00:14:52 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:14:52 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Durrell adds to his sources References: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><20070602194437.HOOP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><20070602195943.HPMW9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><4661D562.40700@wfu.edu><20070602205137.HVCA9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><4661E1B7.8020702@wfu.edu> <20070603012707.GKFI7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <007f01c7a5ae$e17210b0$0100000a@DSC01> I'm still baffled by D's answer to my query about 'Macon', as set out on p. 104 of my book (2nd edn) or p. 401 (1st edn), which it appears no-one is able to explain. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: william godshalk To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 4:27 AM Subject: [ilds] Durrell adds to his sources Charlie, Yes, Durrell added his own touches, no doubt. Skeptical and/or salacious intrusions into chaste sources. But (1) did Durrell have a tremendous memory? Or (2) did he take copious notes on his reading? Or (3) did he have books open on his desk (or on a book wheel) as he wrote? Do we know his composition habits with certainty? Bill On 6/2/2007 4:51 PM, william godshalk wrote: "The long conversations held between Augusta and Spiridion" as they were smuggled "slung" in "two shapeless sacks." You are safe on this one, I think. I wonder if this is a Jurgen-type conversation. I discern a bit of the knowing skepticism of Norman Douglas in the way Durrell has a lark with the petty histories of inanimate relics and their devotees. "I cannot believe however that such a long journey can have passed without some exchange of theological pleasantries." "They must"/"the air must have"/"the incessant halts must have." Very "musty," indeed. That string of subjunctive marks out a good bit of fancy or "belief." And the writer is not one of the incurious "hagiographers." Believers lack a certain imaginative flair necessary to bring the saints' lives to life, but the skeptic can do it. A "mock" in the older and newer sense. A wonderful passage. An article of my belief. Will it last? But since I am packing I am unable to unpack the memory with specific ND moments. Strachey can also do this sort skeptical fantastic with his subjects' lives. I am thinking about the life of Gordon, the way Strachey inhabits a believer's fanaticism--creatively supposing his moments of crisis--without believing himself. C&c. __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/02c35ac1/attachment.html From durrells at otenet.gr Sun Jun 3 00:23:35 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:23:35 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell References: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602194437.HOOP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <00a201c7a5b0$191f3050$0100000a@DSC01> Without looking at the texts, I would, with absolute certainty, wager serious money that LD wrote the second one - the 'as it were' is a giveaway. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: "william godshalk" To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:44 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell > "The procession is led by many devotees in blue cassocks, bearing, > for their saint, very beautiful old gilt Venetian lanterns on long > poles, enormous banners of crimson, gold-edged and tasselled, and > rows of huge candles, crowned with gold and wreathed with gay ribbon > streamers, each candle in its leather baldric making a strong man's > burden with frequent changes." > > "The procession is led by the religious novices clad in blue cassocks > and carrying Venetian lanterns on long poles; they are followed by > banners, heavy and tasselled, and rows of candles crowned with gold > and trailing streamers. These huge pieces of wax are carried in a > leather baldric -- slung, as it were at the hip." > > Okay, which one was written by Durrell? > > Bill > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sun Jun 3 06:11:56 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 14:11:56 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson In-Reply-To: <002b01c7a5ad$9c37db20$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <0169218A-11D4-11DC-BF73-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Thanks for the info. :Michael On Sunday, June 3, 2007, at 08:05 am, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > I have been led to understand that he read it here, in the Corfu > Reading > Society. RP > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Haag" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 2:18 AM > Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson > From slighcl at wfu.edu Sun Jun 3 06:13:36 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 09:13:36 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson In-Reply-To: <002b01c7a5ad$9c37db20$0100000a@DSC01> References: <97E7A80A-115F-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <002b01c7a5ad$9c37db20$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <4662BE80.50202@wfu.edu> Having read so much back and forth discussion about a nearly-invisible book, the bibliographer on the list is moved to act. After all, when evidence is heard in court, one prefers to have the specific, concrete, locatable evidence. Let specificty thrive. Not many people subscribing will have quick access to a copy of Atkinson's book. Only 46 major libraries worldwide catalog /An Artist in Corfu/ (1911) in their collections. I have found a total of 3 copies for sale this morning in a quick survey of online catalogs. Bill is correct. An average price is US $300 / GB ?150. Therefore I attach the following image and description for your enjoyment. A pretty little volume from the early twentieth century. To paraphrase an old folk tune from the left, "Come back, Alan Thomas, we need you today." Surely AGT was one reader who would have known precisely what LD had been "up to" in /Prosepero's Cell/? From his letters and the one film appearance I have seen, he seems "quick" in that way. Charles An Artist in Corfu. Written and Pictured by Sophie Atkinson. * Author Name: ATKINSON, SOPHIE: Title: An Artist in Corfu. Written and Pictured by Sophie Atkinson. Publisher: Herbert & Daniel, London 1911 (1st.).* http://www.puddletownbookshop.co.uk/si/49365.html Seller ID: 49365 Tall 8vo. Beige cloth with decor. and lettering in gold on spine and front cover. Pictorial endpapers. 15 coloured plates and a sketch map. 215 pp. Top edge gilt. Nice copy, but the lower edge / margin of both covers is slightly stained. Inside very clean, only one plate is slightly stained on lower corner. Very good. Keywords: FOREIGN TRAVEL::Europe foreign travel, Illustrated Books, sophie atkinson, an artist in corfu, corfu, Achilleion, olive pickers, fortezza vecchia, fishing port, st. Michaele, greece, ulysses, crusaders, Price = 150.00 GBP -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/b9d68a11/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 49365.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26855 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/b9d68a11/attachment.jpg From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sun Jun 3 06:34:05 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 14:34:05 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Durrell adds to his sources In-Reply-To: <007f01c7a5ae$e17210b0$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <19597D82-11D7-11DC-BF73-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Richard, I have just had a look at your footnote re Macon on page 104 of your 2nd edition Mindscape. It looks like quite an exercise in fancy on Durrell's part. Yes, it is interesting that he knew there was a Council at Macon in 581, but the Templars had not yet come into existence (founded 1118), nor had the Freemasons (18th century), and I am not aware that the Church ever had doubts about women having souls -- explaining why none of these matters was discussed. As you note on that page, Durrell had used the name Macon (and Masson and Mason too) in his earliest Justine notebook, which takes us back to 1943 or 1944. Many of the names he would use in those notebooks and novels at that time were those of publishing companies -- Methuen, Hogarth, Faber -- and possibly Masson or Mason (which is how he used it before he arrived at Macon) refers to a publisher too; for example there is a French medical publisher called Masson, though I do not know how old it is; but that is the line of enquiry I would pursue. :Michael On Sunday, June 3, 2007, at 08:14 am, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > I'm still baffled by D's answer to my query about 'Macon', as set out > on p. 104 of my book (2nd edn) or p. 401 (1st edn), which it appears > no-one is able to explain. > RP > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: william godshalk > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 4:27 AM > Subject: [ilds] Durrell adds to his sources > > Charlie, > > Yes, Durrell added his own touches, no doubt. Skeptical and/or > salacious intrusions into chaste sources. > > But (1) did Durrell have a tremendous memory? Or (2) did he take > copious notes on his reading? Or (3) did he have books open on his > desk (or on a book wheel) as he wrote? > > Do we know his composition habits with certainty? > > Bill? > > > On 6/2/2007 4:51 PM, william godshalk wrote: > > "The long conversations held between Augusta and Spiridion" as they > were smuggled "slung" in "two shapeless sacks."? > > > > > You are safe on this one, I think. I wonder if this is a Jurgen-type > conversation. > > I discern a bit of the knowing skepticism of Norman Douglas in the way > Durrell has a lark with the petty histories of inanimate relics and > their devotees. "I cannot believe however that such a long journey can > have passed without some exchange of theological pleasantries."? "They > must"/"the air must have"/"the incessant halts must have."? Very > "musty," indeed.? That string of subjunctive marks out a? good bit of > fancy or "belief."? And the writer is not one of the incurious > "hagiographers."? Believers lack a certain imaginative flair necessary > to bring the saints' lives to life, but the skeptic can do it.? A > "mock" in the older and newer sense.? A wonderful passage.? An article > of my belief.? Will it last? > > But since I am packing I am unable to unpack the memory with specific > ND moments.? Strachey can also do this sort skeptical fantastic with > his subjects' lives.? I am thinking about the life of Gordon, the way > Strachey inhabits a believer's fanaticism--creatively supposing his > moments of crisis--without believing himself. > > C&c. > > > > __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk??????????* > Department of English???????? * > University of Cincinnati??????????? Stellar disorder? * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069????? * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 4339 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/2cd2bd92/attachment.bin From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sun Jun 3 06:36:24 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 14:36:24 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell In-Reply-To: <00a201c7a5b0$191f3050$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <6C43C42D-11D7-11DC-BF73-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> I thought the same thing for the same reason, though I would not bet a pfennig on it. :Michael On Sunday, June 3, 2007, at 08:23 am, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > Without looking at the texts, I would, with absolute certainty, wager > serious money that LD wrote the second one - the 'as it were' is a > giveaway. > RP > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "william godshalk" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:44 PM > Subject: Re: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell > > >> "The procession is led by many devotees in blue cassocks, bearing, >> for their saint, very beautiful old gilt Venetian lanterns on long >> poles, enormous banners of crimson, gold-edged and tasselled, and >> rows of huge candles, crowned with gold and wreathed with gay ribbon >> streamers, each candle in its leather baldric making a strong man's >> burden with frequent changes." >> >> "The procession is led by the religious novices clad in blue cassocks >> and carrying Venetian lanterns on long poles; they are followed by >> banners, heavy and tasselled, and rows of candles crowned with gold >> and trailing streamers. These huge pieces of wax are carried in a >> leather baldric -- slung, as it were at the hip." >> >> Okay, which one was written by Durrell? >> >> Bill From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 07:28:31 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 07:28:31 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Atkinson stands in for personal memories Message-ID: <15408782.1180880912343.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Bill, This story has the flat ring of truth. I believe it. What's the title of your article and where did your publish it? Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: Jun 2, 2007 6:16 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] Atkinson stands in for personal memories > >I wonder if Durrell uses Atkinson because he himself did NOT >experience the processions and festivals that he wanted to write >about. I know that I've written this before, but Jean Franchette told >me that Durrell was not the adventurous sort. He'd rather sit in the >chair than go to the Gypsy conclave. He needed sources because he had >no memories to draw from. > >I wish someone would convince me otherwise. > >Bill >*************************************** >W. L. Godshalk * >Department of English * >University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >513-281-5927 >*************************************** > > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From durrells at otenet.gr Sun Jun 3 06:42:41 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 16:42:41 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson References: <97E7A80A-115F-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com><002b01c7a5ad$9c37db20$0100000a@DSC01> <4662BE80.50202@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <002f01c7a5e5$0ebf7270$0100000a@DSC01> When our catalogue of our 3000 volumes goes online in a short while, there will be 47 libraries listing it! It's lucky I bought the DSC copy when (and as cheaply) as I did - but fashions dictate the market, and it' quite likely that more copies, at cheaper prices, will become available - certainly when I bought ours, from the same source (ie abebooks.com) there were many more copies listed - about 8 as far as I can recall. Not all are complete - some are lacking one or two of the tipped-in illustrations. It's a fascinating read. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: slighcl To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell and Atkinson Having read so much back and forth discussion about a nearly-invisible book, the bibliographer on the list is moved to act. After all, when evidence is heard in court, one prefers to have the specific, concrete, locatable evidence. Let specificty thrive. Not many people subscribing will have quick access to a copy of Atkinson's book. Only 46 major libraries worldwide catalog An Artist in Corfu (1911) in their collections. I have found a total of 3 copies for sale this morning in a quick survey of online catalogs. Bill is correct. An average price is US $300 / GB ?150. Therefore I attach the following image and description for your enjoyment. A pretty little volume from the early twentieth century. To paraphrase an old folk tune from the left, "Come back, Alan Thomas, we need you today." Surely AGT was one reader who would have known precisely what LD had been "up to" in Prosepero's Cell? From his letters and the one film appearance I have seen, he seems "quick" in that way. Charles Author Name: ATKINSON, SOPHIE: Title: An Artist in Corfu. Written and Pictured by Sophie Atkinson. Publisher: Herbert & Daniel, London 1911 (1st.). http://www.puddletownbookshop.co.uk/si/49365.html Seller ID: 49365 Tall 8vo. Beige cloth with decor. and lettering in gold on spine and front cover. Pictorial endpapers. 15 coloured plates and a sketch map. 215 pp. Top edge gilt. Nice copy, but the lower edge / margin of both covers is slightly stained. Inside very clean, only one plate is slightly stained on lower corner. Very good. Keywords: FOREIGN TRAVEL::Europe foreign travel, Illustrated Books, sophie atkinson, an artist in corfu, corfu, Achilleion, olive pickers, fortezza vecchia, fishing port, st. Michaele, greece, ulysses, crusaders, Price = 150.00 GBP -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/15a2b5d4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 26855 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/15a2b5d4/attachment.jpe From durrells at otenet.gr Sun Jun 3 07:05:20 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 17:05:20 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Durrell adds to his sources References: <19597D82-11D7-11DC-BF73-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <004701c7a5e8$38ae9630$0100000a@DSC01> Well anything anyopne can do to elucidate 'Macon' would be helpful, but what I find astonishing about D is that, when asked what it meant he immediately came up with the facts about the Macon Council in 581 - he had no prior notice of the question, so it may be an indication of his ability to dredge up info - however irrelevant - at the drop of a hat. RP Incidentally, re 'Hogarth', he was very amused that it was Paul Hogarth who produced the .Mediterranean Shore ' - I've been analysed by Hogarth' he said to me. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Haag To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] Durrell adds to his sources Richard, I have just had a look at your footnote re Macon on page 104 of your 2nd edition Mindscape. It looks like quite an exercise in fancy on Durrell's part. Yes, it is interesting that he knew there was a Council at Macon in 581, but the Templars had not yet come into existence (founded 1118), nor had the Freemasons (18th century), and I am not aware that the Church ever had doubts about women having souls -- explaining why none of these matters was discussed. As you note on that page, Durrell had used the name Macon (and Masson and Mason too) in his earliest Justine notebook, which takes us back to 1943 or 1944. Many of the names he would use in those notebooks and novels at that time were those of publishing companies -- Methuen, Hogarth, Faber -- and possibly Masson or Mason (which is how he used it before he arrived at Macon) refers to a publisher too; for example there is a French medical publisher called Masson, though I do not know how old it is; but that is the line of enquiry I would pursue. :Michael On Sunday, June 3, 2007, at 08:14 am, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: I'm still baffled by D's answer to my query about 'Macon', as set out on p. 104 of my book (2nd edn) or p. 401 (1st edn), which it appears no-one is able to explain. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: william godshalk To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 4:27 AM Subject: [ilds] Durrell adds to his sources Charlie, Yes, Durrell added his own touches, no doubt. Skeptical and/or salacious intrusions into chaste sources. But (1) did Durrell have a tremendous memory? Or (2) did he take copious notes on his reading? Or (3) did he have books open on his desk (or on a book wheel) as he wrote? Do we know his composition habits with certainty? Bill On 6/2/2007 4:51 PM, william godshalk wrote: "The long conversations held between Augusta and Spiridion" as they were smuggled "slung" in "two shapeless sacks." You are safe on this one, I think. I wonder if this is a Jurgen-type conversation. I discern a bit of the knowing skepticism of Norman Douglas in the way Durrell has a lark with the petty histories of inanimate relics and their devotees. "I cannot believe however that such a long journey can have passed without some exchange of theological pleasantries." "They must"/"the air must have"/"the incessant halts must have." Very "musty," indeed. That string of subjunctive marks out a good bit of fancy or "belief." And the writer is not one of the incurious "hagiographers." Believers lack a certain imaginative flair necessary to bring the saints' lives to life, but the skeptic can do it. A "mock" in the older and newer sense. A wonderful passage. An article of my belief. Will it last? But since I am packing I am unable to unpack the memory with specific ND moments. Strachey can also do this sort skeptical fantastic with his subjects' lives. I am thinking about the life of Gordon, the way Strachey inhabits a believer's fanaticism--creatively supposing his moments of crisis--without believing himself. C&c. __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/ab1a8ee4/attachment.html From ajf-cb at t-online.de Sun Jun 3 08:31:52 2007 From: ajf-cb at t-online.de (ajf-cb at t-online.de) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 17:31:52 +0200 Subject: [ilds] please remove from list In-Reply-To: <00a201c7a5b0$191f3050$0100000a@DSC01> References: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070602194437.HOOP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <00a201c7a5b0$191f3050$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <1Hus3c-0NeTp20@fwd30.aul.t-online.de> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/bc1f344f/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 3 09:05:21 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 12:05:21 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell In-Reply-To: <6C43C42D-11D7-11DC-BF73-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <00a201c7a5b0$191f3050$0100000a@DSC01> <6C43C42D-11D7-11DC-BF73-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070603160508.HSFB7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Yes, gentle folks, "as it were" is the giveaway. Durrell wrote that one. Bill At 09:36 AM 6/3/2007, you wrote: >I thought the same thing for the same reason, though I would not bet a >pfennig on it. > >:Michael > > >On Sunday, June 3, 2007, at 08:23 am, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > > > Without looking at the texts, I would, with absolute certainty, wager > > serious money that LD wrote the second one - the 'as it were' is a > > giveaway. > > RP > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "william godshalk" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:44 PM > > Subject: Re: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell > > > > > >> "The procession is led by many devotees in blue cassocks, bearing, > >> for their saint, very beautiful old gilt Venetian lanterns on long > >> poles, enormous banners of crimson, gold-edged and tasselled, and > >> rows of huge candles, crowned with gold and wreathed with gay ribbon > >> streamers, each candle in its leather baldric making a strong man's > >> burden with frequent changes." > >> > >> "The procession is led by the religious novices clad in blue cassocks > >> and carrying Venetian lanterns on long poles; they are followed by > >> banners, heavy and tasselled, and rows of candles crowned with gold > >> and trailing streamers. These huge pieces of wax are carried in a > >> leather baldric -- slung, as it were at the hip." > >> > >> Okay, which one was written by Durrell? > >> > >> Bill > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 3 09:20:44 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 12:20:44 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson stands in for personal memories In-Reply-To: <007001c7a5ae$8a5de3d0$0100000a@DSC01> References: <7C06756A-1169-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070603011556.ILZS9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <007001c7a5ae$8a5de3d0$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070603162041.HTGA7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/ce9a188a/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 3 09:29:55 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 12:29:55 -0400 Subject: [ilds] D's memory and D's borrowing In-Reply-To: <007001c7a5ae$8a5de3d0$0100000a@DSC01> References: <7C06756A-1169-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070603011556.ILZS9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <007001c7a5ae$8a5de3d0$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070603163002.HTWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/dbe2e0df/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 3 09:40:11 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 12:40:11 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Paper on Atkinson OMG 2000 In-Reply-To: <001501c7a5ad$3a40a9b0$0100000a@DSC01> References: <20070602192730.FRJT7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <014a01c7a556$7a04bd90$0100000a@DSC01> <20070602205652.FWNV7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <001501c7a5ad$3a40a9b0$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: <20070603164028.HUPB7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/ad6790c9/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sun Jun 3 09:43:04 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 17:43:04 +0100 Subject: [ilds] D's memory and D's borrowing In-Reply-To: <20070603163002.HTWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <7FCDA008-11F1-11DC-BF73-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> While visiting Alexandria in 1977 Durrell admitted: 'I am extremely incurious, and my real life seems to pass either in books or in dreams'. :Michael On Sunday, June 3, 2007, at 05:29 pm, william godshalk wrote: > I find it almost impossible to believe that D did not witness the > processions in Corfu Town - after all, it seems pretty conclusive that > he > attended the Spatharis Karaghiozi performance(s) along with > Stephanides. And > if he didnt do festivals, what was/were his source(s) for Ste > Marie-de-la-Mer? > RP > > > I, of course, exaggerate. D must have gone to some festivals, but if > he had such a great memory, why did he borrow details of these > festivals from other writers' books? > > (a) Durrell was lazy, and would rather borrow text than create a text. > > (b) D didn't like festivals and avoided them whenever possible. > > (c) Even though D gave evidence of a miraculous memory, he really > couldn't remember events he had witnessed. > > (d) When at festivals, etc., he drank too much -- and thus could not > remember what he may have seen. > > Let speculation thrive! > > Bill_______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1247 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/e6478f76/attachment.bin From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 3 09:47:32 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 12:47:32 -0400 Subject: [ilds] student plagiarism and borrowing by authors In-Reply-To: <20070603163002.HTWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <7C06756A-1169-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070603011556.ILZS9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <007001c7a5ae$8a5de3d0$0100000a@DSC01> <20070603163002.HTWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070603164759.HVCF7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> I think the problem for academics is that we punish students when they borrow without quotation marks or footnotes. But when Larry does it, we attempt to excuse the borrowings in a variety of ways. Perhaps we should attempt to excuse our students with the same vigor as we use to excuse Durrell. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From slighcl at wfu.edu Sun Jun 3 10:51:44 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:51:44 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell In-Reply-To: <20070603160508.HSFB7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <00a201c7a5b0$191f3050$0100000a@DSC01> <6C43C42D-11D7-11DC-BF73-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070603160508.HSFB7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <4662FFB0.4070602@wfu.edu> On 6/3/2007 12:05 PM, william godshalk wrote: >Yes, gentle folks, "as it were" is the giveaway. Durrell wrote that one. > > > Nice job, Richard & Co. An interesting alignment of passages, Godshalk Sahib. But then I would expect no less from so many old hands trained in playing the "Jewel Game." Any thoughts about Durrell's stylistic tic, his habitual use of the "as if" and "as it were"? Bill can give us some examples of the former, I know, as he has asked me before if I have noted tendency to pitch his similes in that characteristic phrasing. I would love to play along but I am catching the plane to London. CLS > 'Gently - gently,' the man replied, and from a drawer under the > table dealt a half-handful of clattering trifles into the tray. > > 'Now,' said the child, waving an old newspaper. 'Look on them as > long as thou wilt, stranger. Count and, if need be, handle. One > look is enough for me.' He turned his back proudly. > > 'But what is the game?' > > 'When thou hast counted and handled and art sure that thou canst > remember them all, I cover them with this paper, and thou must > tell over the tally to Lurgan Sahib. I will write mine.' > > 'Oah!' The instinct of competition waked in his breast. He bent > over the tray. There were but fifteen stones on it. 'That is > easy,' he said after a minute. The child slipped the paper over > the winking jewels and scribbled in a native account-book. > > 'There are under that paper five blue stones - one big, one > smaller, and three small,' said Kim, all in haste. 'There are four > green stones, and one with a hole in it; there is one yellow stone > that I can see through, and one like a pipe-stem. There are two > red stones, and - and - I made the count fifteen, but two I have > forgotten. No! Give me time. One was of ivory, little and > brownish; and - and - give me time...' > > 'One - two' - Lurgan Sahib counted him out up to ten. Kim shook > his head. > > 'Hear my count!' the child burst in, trilling with laughter. > 'First, are two flawed sapphires - one of two ruttees and one of > four as I should judge. The four-ruttee sapphire is chipped at the > edge. There is one Turkestan turquoise, plain with black veins, > and there are two inscribed - one with a Name of God in gilt, and > the other being cracked across, for it came out of an old ring, I > cannot read. We have now all five blue stones. Four flawed > emeralds there are, but one is drilled in two places, and one is a > little carven-' > > 'Their weights?' said Lurgan Sahib impassively. > > 'Three - five - five - and four ruttees as I judge it. There is > one piece of old greenish pipe amber, and a cut topaz from Europe. > There is one ruby of Burma, of two ruttees, without a flaw, and > there is a balas-ruby, flawed, of two ruttees. There is a carved > ivory from China representing a rat sucking an egg; and there is > last - ah ha! - a ball of crystal as big as a bean set on a gold > leaf.' > > He clapped his hands at the close. > > 'He is thy master,' said Lurgan Sahib, smiling. > > 'Huh! He knew the names of the stones,' said Kim, flushing. 'Try > again! With common things such as he and I both know.' > > They heaped the tray again with odds and ends gathered from the > shop, and even the kitchen, and every time the child won, till Kim > marvelled. > -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/11df1bdd/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 3 10:55:47 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:55:47 -0400 Subject: [ilds] I am extremely incurious In-Reply-To: <7FCDA008-11F1-11DC-BF73-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <20070603163002.HTWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <7FCDA008-11F1-11DC-BF73-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070603175535.KEKP9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/849d440a/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 3 11:09:12 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 14:09:12 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Kim and Durrell and Durrellian similes In-Reply-To: <4662FFB0.4070602@wfu.edu> References: <00a201c7a5b0$191f3050$0100000a@DSC01> <6C43C42D-11D7-11DC-BF73-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070603160508.HSFB7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <4662FFB0.4070602@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070603180900.KOBW3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/c4c8514d/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 11:28:41 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 11:28:41 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Armchair traveling Message-ID: <22989109.1180895321239.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/d5928a45/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 11:30:46 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 11:30:46 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] D's memory and D's borrowing Message-ID: <17167526.1180895446988.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/1e91b329/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 11:33:34 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 11:33:34 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] D's memory and D's borrowing Message-ID: <15644619.1180895614732.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The evidence grows. But this just about QED's it. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Haag >Sent: Jun 3, 2007 9:43 AM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] D's memory and D's borrowing > >While visiting Alexandria in 1977 Durrell admitted: 'I am extremely >incurious, and my real life seems to pass either in books or in dreams'. > >:Michael > > > >On Sunday, June 3, 2007, at 05:29 pm, william godshalk wrote: > >> I find it almost impossible to believe that D did not witness the >> processions in Corfu Town - after all, it seems pretty conclusive that >> he >> attended the Spatharis Karaghiozi performance(s) along with >> Stephanides. And >> if he didnt do festivals, what was/were his source(s) for Ste >> Marie-de-la-Mer? >> RP >> >> >> I, of course, exaggerate. D must have gone to some festivals, but if >> he had such a great memory, why did he borrow details of these >> festivals from other writers' books? >> >> (a) Durrell was lazy, and would rather borrow text than create a text. >> >> (b) D didn't like festivals and avoided them whenever possible. >> >> (c) Even though D gave evidence of a miraculous memory, he really >> couldn't remember events he had witnessed. >> >> (d) When at festivals, etc., he drank too much -- and thus could not >> remember what he may have seen. >> >> Let speculation thrive! >> >> Bill_______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 11:36:49 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 11:36:49 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] student plagiarism and borrowing by authors Message-ID: <29293455.1180895810070.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Bill, I see your point, but I think you got it backwards. Durrell should be held to, or close to, the same standards as your students. Follow his advice on veneration and the dog's tooth. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: Jun 3, 2007 9:47 AM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] student plagiarism and borrowing by authors > >I think the problem for academics is that we punish students when >they borrow without quotation marks or footnotes. > >But when Larry does it, we attempt to excuse the borrowings in a >variety of ways. > >Perhaps we should attempt to excuse our students with the same vigor >as we use to excuse Durrell. > >Bill >*************************************** >W. L. Godshalk * >Department of English * >University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >513-281-5927 >*************************************** > > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 11:42:27 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 11:42:27 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Kim and Durrell and Durrellian similes Message-ID: <31349588.1180896148365.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/8f0b01ce/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 12:09:53 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 12:09:53 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] the bar as a centre of learning Message-ID: <28006297.1180897794271.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I only drink white wine, but I hear there's plenty of that in France, particularly Bourgogne. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Denise Tart & David Green >Sent: Jun 1, 2007 9:21 PM >To: Durrel >Subject: [ilds] the bar as a centre of learning > >To David Holdsworth > >- the bar IS a centre of learning. Of course after a few dozen beers my Canadian friend and I came to the inevitable conclusion that without the Canadians and the Australians World War One would have lost by the British, that the Americans got off their bums too late to do much and the world would be a better place if Canada and Australia were a lot closer together. After that we walked out singing old heroic songs while having to think hard as to where our respective hotels were. > >Durrell may well have approved. And people on this list with names like Bruce Redwine make me confident that enjoying the fruit of vine is something many on this list share with LD. One of the things I have always liked about LD is that he was a vinuous soul inspired by wine and sun and women and warm, relaxed landscapes (why not?). In this vein I have always felt that LD would have liked Australia - the climate and colours and maybe even the people who are like Englishmen with the social anxiety and class consciousness removed. Sometimes when he describes Greece in Prospero's Cell and Reflections on a Marine Venus and Better Lemons I can smell, see and feel equivalent scenes in my own country. Unfortunately LD would have needed a passport to get in here. Perhaps that's why he never came down under. > >Given Bruce's comments, we should get a party together and head off to Provence after the Durrell conference in Paris next year. Maybe there is still the old slow coach of a train available rather than the TGV? A Durrell Tour springs to mind - perhaps ending up on St. Marie sur la Mare or even Greece itself. > >Durrell's island books also reveal strongly his love hate relationship with England. Characters such as the hard drinking, cantankerous officer Gideon and his friend Hoyle are endearingly rendered on the pages of Reflections on a Marine Venus in stark contrast the inept class of governors who mismanaged the Cyprus crisis descibed in Bitter Lemons. Indeed I believe Durrell lost his job there when he telephoned the governor while drunk one night and described him as 'an inept c--t'. And of course Durrell's Antrobus stories are an enormous send up of the British 'colonial' service. > >Enough said, it's chardonnay time. > >David Green > > > > >Denise Tart & David Green >16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 > >+61 2 9564 6165 >0412 707 625 >dtart at bigpond.net.au From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Sun Jun 3 11:39:02 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 20:39:02 +0200 Subject: [ilds] D's memory and D's borrowing In-Reply-To: <7FCDA008-11F1-11DC-BF73-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <7FCDA008-11F1-11DC-BF73-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <46630AC6.5050607@interdesign.fr> Yes I had the feeling he didn't want to go back to Alexandria. The BBC dragged him there! Marc Piel Michael Haag wrote: > While visiting Alexandria in 1977 Durrell admitted: 'I am extremely > incurious, and my real life seems to pass either in books or in dreams'. > > :Michael > > > > On Sunday, June 3, 2007, at 05:29 pm, william godshalk wrote: > > I find it almost impossible to believe that D did not witness the > processions in Corfu Town - after all, it seems pretty conclusive > that he > attended the Spatharis Karaghiozi performance(s) along with > Stephanides. And > if he didnt do festivals, what was/were his source(s) for Ste > Marie-de-la-Mer? > RP > > > I, of course, exaggerate. D must have gone to some festivals, but if > he had such a great memory, why did he borrow details of these > festivals from other writers' books? > > (a) Durrell was lazy, and would rather borrow text than create a text. > > (b) D didn't like festivals and avoided them whenever possible. > > (c) Even though D gave evidence of a miraculous memory, he really > couldn't remember events he had witnessed. > > (d) When at festivals, etc., he drank too much -- and thus could not > remember what he may have seen. > > Let speculation thrive! > > Bill_______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Sun Jun 3 12:05:32 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 21:05:32 +0200 Subject: [ilds] student plagiarism and borrowing by authors In-Reply-To: <20070603164759.HVCF7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <7C06756A-1169-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070603011556.ILZS9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <007001c7a5ae$8a5de3d0$0100000a@DSC01> <20070603163002.HTWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070603164759.HVCF7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <466310FC.8050406@interdesign.fr> How many people like me are on your list??? I should be considered like a student... I don't make my living out of this. Sometime I have the feeling that there are five or six people out there having a monoloque; is that what your students feel??? What excuses do you have? Marc Piel william godshalk wrote: > I think the problem for academics is that we punish students when > they borrow without quotation marks or footnotes. > > But when Larry does it, we attempt to excuse the borrowings in a > variety of ways. > > Perhaps we should attempt to excuse our students with the same vigor > as we use to excuse Durrell. > > Bill From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 3 13:04:19 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 16:04:19 -0400 Subject: [ilds] a b c d? In-Reply-To: <17167526.1180895446988.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa. earthlink.net> References: <17167526.1180895446988.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070603200416.KVNK3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/2b56d784/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sun Jun 3 13:21:38 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 21:21:38 +0100 Subject: [ilds] a b c d? In-Reply-To: <20070603200416.KVNK3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <08831673-1210-11DC-ADC3-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> For the sake of exhausting the choices, I will plump for b. :Michael On Sunday, June 3, 2007, at 09:04 pm, william godshalk wrote: > Bruce suggests (a), (c) and (d) as the correct answers. > > > The next contestant please. > > > (a) Durrell was lazy, and would rather borrow text than create a text. > > (b) D didn't like festivals and avoided them whenever possible. > > (c) Even though D gave evidence of a miraculous memory, he really > couldn't remember events he had witnessed. > > (d) When at festivals, etc., he drank too much -- and thus could not > remember what he may have seen. > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 734 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/3be14cdb/attachment.bin From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 3 13:31:24 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 16:31:24 -0400 Subject: [ilds] student plagiarism and borrowing by authors In-Reply-To: <466310FC.8050406@interdesign.fr> References: <7C06756A-1169-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070603011556.ILZS9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <007001c7a5ae$8a5de3d0$0100000a@DSC01> <20070603163002.HTWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070603164759.HVCF7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <466310FC.8050406@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: <20070603203131.KXGY3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Marc, This was aimed at the academics on the list. I admit it. I believe that my students feel that I don't talk enough. I use the modified Socratic method when I teach. I ask students to confront and answer questions. I do not give them answers, only questions. For example, I would ask them to confront the paradox of teachers defending plagiarism in a major author, and at the same time disciplining students who do the same thing, calling it plagiarism. Durrell copies from Sophie Fitzgerald and we defend him. Students copy from the same source without using footnotes, and the student may be expelled from the university. The student's record is tarnished; Durrell's is not. Is that fair? Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 13:33:40 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 13:33:40 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Excuses? Message-ID: <9681975.1180902821687.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Marc, I'm not the "moderator," but it's my understanding that the ILDS is a free-for-all. Any crazy person can say any crazy thing, within the bounds of propriety, he or she likes. The French, of all people, understand this principle the best. And I still have a lot more crazy things to say. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Marc Piel >Sent: Jun 3, 2007 12:05 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] student plagiarism and borrowing by authors > >How many people like me are on your list??? I >should be considered like a student... I don't >make my living out of this. Sometime I have the >feeling that there are five or six people out >there having a monoloque; is that what your >students feel??? What excuses do you have? >Marc Piel > >william godshalk wrote: > >> I think the problem for academics is that we punish students when >> they borrow without quotation marks or footnotes. >> >> But when Larry does it, we attempt to excuse the borrowings in a >> variety of ways. >> >> Perhaps we should attempt to excuse our students with the same vigor >> as we use to excuse Durrell. >> >> Bill > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From slighcl at wfu.edu Sun Jun 3 13:51:33 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 16:51:33 -0400 Subject: [ilds] plagiarism and borrowing by authors In-Reply-To: <20070603203131.KXGY3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <7C06756A-1169-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070603011556.ILZS9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <007001c7a5ae$8a5de3d0$0100000a@DSC01> <20070603163002.HTWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070603164759.HVCF7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <466310FC.8050406@interdesign.fr> <20070603203131.KXGY3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <466329D5.5020002@wfu.edu> On 6/3/2007 4:31 PM, william godshalk wrote: > >Is that fair? > I would like to particularize the debate. None of what I am about to ask ends any discussion or frees Durrell's /works /from our questioning. (However, the old fellow himself will always elude our assertions and convictions and ultimate understanding. "Mr. Larry. He dead.") But what about the tradition of travel writing as explored in general by Paul Fussell in /Abroad /and in specific by David Roessel in his Durrell articles? What was the tradition of travel writers using historical sources and the memoirs of other travelers? What did Norman Douglas do with his sources in /Old Calabria/? or Robert Byron in /The Road to Oxiana/? or Freya Stark in /The Valley of the Assassins/? or, to make another jump to something between fiction and fact, what about Forster in /Pharos and Pharillon/? Or Flaubert in /Salammbo/? Douglas I will say has a very smooth surface to his narrative, barely interrupted by any apparatus such as footnotes. He does openly nod to a source within the flow of the narrative with some frequency, and again he was a marvellously self-conscious and wry indexer, but what else? Surely it was "bad form" in that tradition to put out too academic of a book? Again, we are free to applaud or condemn as we choose in this discussion. But I have real difficulty in not particularizing the context before issuing the citation. CLS -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/0fd89de4/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 3 13:53:30 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 16:53:30 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Kim and Durrell and Durrellian similes In-Reply-To: <31349588.1180896148365.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa. earthlink.net> References: <31349588.1180896148365.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070603205317.ILDL7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/c9babeb4/attachment.html From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Sun Jun 3 13:38:09 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 22:38:09 +0200 Subject: [ilds] the bar as a centre of learning In-Reply-To: <28006297.1180897794271.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <28006297.1180897794271.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <466326B1.8000409@interdesign.fr> Hello Bruce, a little information on Bourgogne. More types ofredare produced than white,but white is bogger in quantity. there is also some Ros?: Bourgogne accounts for about 5% of the AOC in France. Chablis is a very smoothe white, Aligot? is a very strong white that has a beautiful taste, but can give very bad headaches. The wine from the Ma?onnais (name often evoqued in recent posts) is mostly red and very fruity. Attached is more detailed info. Marc Piel Bruce Redwine wrote: > I only drink white wine, but I hear there's plenty of that in France, particularly Bourgogne. > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- > >>From: Denise Tart & David Green >>Sent: Jun 1, 2007 9:21 PM >>To: Durrel >>Subject: [ilds] the bar as a centre of learning >> >>To David Holdsworth >> >>- the bar IS a centre of learning. Of course after a few dozen beers my Canadian friend and I came to the inevitable conclusion that without the Canadians and the Australians World War One would have lost by the British, that the Americans got off their bums too late to do much and the world would be a better place if Canada and Australia were a lot closer together. After that we walked out singing old heroic songs while having to think hard as to where our respective hotels were. >> >>Durrell may well have approved. And people on this list with names like Bruce Redwine make me confident that enjoying the fruit of vine is something many on this list share with LD. One of the things I have always liked about LD is that he was a vinuous soul inspired by wine and sun and women and warm, relaxed landscapes (why not?). In this vein I have always felt that LD would have liked Australia - the climate and colours and maybe even the people who are like Englishmen with the social anxiety and class consciousness removed. Sometimes when he describes Greece in Prospero's Cell and Reflections on a Marine Venus and Better Lemons I can smell, see and feel equivalent scenes in my own country. Unfortunately LD would have needed a passport to get in here. Perhaps that's why he never came down under. >> >>Given Bruce's comments, we should get a party together and head off to Provence after the Durrell conference in Paris next year. Maybe there is still the old slow coach of a train available rather than the TGV? A Durrell Tour springs to mind - perhaps ending up on St. Marie sur la Mare or even Greece itself. >> >>Durrell's island books also reveal strongly his love hate relationship with England. Characters such as the hard drinking, cantankerous officer Gideon and his friend Hoyle are endearingly rendered on the pages of Reflections on a Marine Venus in stark contrast the inept class of governors who mismanaged the Cyprus crisis descibed in Bitter Lemons. Indeed I believe Durrell lost his job there when he telephoned the governor while drunk one night and described him as 'an inept c--t'. And of course Durrell's Antrobus stories are an enormous send up of the British 'colonial' service. >> >>Enough said, it's chardonnay time. >> >>David Green >> >> >> >> >>Denise Tart & David Green >>16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 >> >>+61 2 9564 6165 >>0412 707 625 >>dtart at bigpond.net.au > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vin6004fiche_n43_macons_coqxd.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1192756 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/417bc3e3/attachment-0003.pdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 01_bourgogne.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 220195 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/417bc3e3/attachment-0004.pdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: liste_des_appellations_bourguignonnes.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1467308 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/417bc3e3/attachment-0005.pdf From marcpiel at interdesign.fr Sun Jun 3 13:41:31 2007 From: marcpiel at interdesign.fr (Marc Piel) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 22:41:31 +0200 Subject: [ilds] Excuses? In-Reply-To: <9681975.1180902821687.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9681975.1180902821687.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4663277B.1040809@interdesign.fr> I guess I'm an eogist; I was hoping to learn something from this, instead so many of the posts confuse. Bruce Redwine wrote: > Marc, I'm not the "moderator," but it's my understanding that the ILDS is a free-for-all. Any crazy person can say any crazy thing, within the bounds of propriety, he or she likes. The French, of all people, understand this principle the best. And I still have a lot more crazy things to say. > > Bruce From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 13:59:35 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 13:59:35 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] the bar as a centre of learning Message-ID: <14595297.1180904376192.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Thanks, Marc. Now we finally have something solid and important to discuss -- French wines! I guess I'm just a five-percenter in my tastes in both wines and literature. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Marc Piel >Sent: Jun 3, 2007 1:38 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] the bar as a centre of learning > >Hello Bruce, a little information on Bourgogne. >More types ofredare produced than white,but white >is bogger in quantity. there is also some Ros?: >Bourgogne accounts for about 5% of the AOC in >France. Chablis is a very smoothe white, Aligot? >is a very strong white that has a beautiful taste, >but can give very bad headaches. The wine from the >Ma?onnais (name often evoqued in recent posts) is >mostly red and very fruity. Attached is more >detailed info. >Marc Piel > >Bruce Redwine wrote: > >> I only drink white wine, but I hear there's plenty of that in France, particularly Bourgogne. >> >> Bruce >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >>>From: Denise Tart & David Green >>>Sent: Jun 1, 2007 9:21 PM >>>To: Durrel >>>Subject: [ilds] the bar as a centre of learning >>> >>>To David Holdsworth >>> >>>- the bar IS a centre of learning. Of course after a few dozen beers my Canadian friend and I came to the inevitable conclusion that without the Canadians and the Australians World War One would have lost by the British, that the Americans got off their bums too late to do much and the world would be a better place if Canada and Australia were a lot closer together. After that we walked out singing old heroic songs while having to think hard as to where our respective hotels were. >>> >>>Durrell may well have approved. And people on this list with names like Bruce Redwine make me confident that enjoying the fruit of vine is something many on this list share with LD. One of the things I have always liked about LD is that he was a vinuous soul inspired by wine and sun and women and warm, relaxed landscapes (why not?). In this vein I have always felt that LD would have liked Australia - the climate and colours and maybe even the people who are like Englishmen with the social anxiety and class consciousness removed. Sometimes when he describes Greece in Prospero's Cell and Reflections on a Marine Venus and Better Lemons I can smell, see and feel equivalent scenes in my own country. Unfortunately LD would have needed a passport to get in here. Perhaps that's why he never came down under. >>> >>>Given Bruce's comments, we should get a party together and head off to Provence after the Durrell conference in Paris next year. Maybe there is still the old slow coach of a train available rather than the TGV? A Durrell Tour springs to mind - perhaps ending up on St. Marie sur la Mare or even Greece itself. >>> >>>Durrell's island books also reveal strongly his love hate relationship with England. Characters such as the hard drinking, cantankerous officer Gideon and his friend Hoyle are endearingly rendered on the pages of Reflections on a Marine Venus in stark contrast the inept class of governors who mismanaged the Cyprus crisis descibed in Bitter Lemons. Indeed I believe Durrell lost his job there when he telephoned the governor while drunk one night and described him as 'an inept c--t'. And of course Durrell's Antrobus stories are an enormous send up of the British 'colonial' service. >>> >>>Enough said, it's chardonnay time. >>> >>>David Green >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Denise Tart & David Green >>>16 William Street, Marrickville NSW 2204 >>> >>>+61 2 9564 6165 >>>0412 707 625 >>>dtart at bigpond.net.au >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 14:07:34 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 14:07:34 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] plagiarism and borrowing by authors Message-ID: <25300871.1180904854941.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> My rule is simple. If you write travel literature and use other sources, you make a note at the back and list them, as Durrell does. If you use small or big chunks of someone else's prose, you find a way to indicate that (quotation marks, footnotes, direct reference to a person, etc.). You don't, you absolutely don't pass off someone else's prose as your own. That's deception. Isn't this commonsense? Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: slighcl >Sent: Jun 3, 2007 1:51 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] plagiarism and borrowing by authors > >On 6/3/2007 4:31 PM, william godshalk wrote: > >> >>Is that fair? >> >I would like to particularize the debate. None of what I am about to >ask ends any discussion or frees Durrell's /works /from our >questioning. (However, the old fellow himself will always elude our >assertions and convictions and ultimate understanding. "Mr. Larry. He >dead.") > >But what about the tradition of travel writing as explored in general by >Paul Fussell in /Abroad /and in specific by David Roessel in his Durrell >articles? What was the tradition of travel writers using historical >sources and the memoirs of other travelers? What did Norman Douglas do >with his sources in /Old Calabria/? or Robert Byron in /The Road to >Oxiana/? or Freya Stark in /The Valley of the Assassins/? or, to make >another jump to something between fiction and fact, what about Forster >in /Pharos and Pharillon/? Or Flaubert in /Salammbo/? > >Douglas I will say has a very smooth surface to his narrative, barely >interrupted by any apparatus such as footnotes. He does openly nod to a >source within the flow of the narrative with some frequency, and again >he was a marvellously self-conscious and wry indexer, but what else? >Surely it was "bad form" in that tradition to put out too academic of a >book? > >Again, we are free to applaud or condemn as we choose in this >discussion. But I have real difficulty in not particularizing the >context before issuing the citation. > >CLS > >-- >********************** >Charles L. Sligh >Department of English >Wake Forest University >slighcl at wfu.edu >********************** > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 3 14:09:55 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 17:09:55 -0400 Subject: [ilds] the long tradition In-Reply-To: <466329D5.5020002@wfu.edu> References: <7C06756A-1169-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070603011556.ILZS9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <007001c7a5ae$8a5de3d0$0100000a@DSC01> <20070603163002.HTWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070603164759.HVCF7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <466310FC.8050406@interdesign.fr> <20070603203131.KXGY3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <466329D5.5020002@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070603211013.KZSR3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/9a2bc5c1/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 14:10:23 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 14:10:23 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Kim and Durrell and Durrellian similes Message-ID: <20183438.1180905023513.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I don't think Durrell made a big distinction between symbols and metaphoric language. That's academic. He was a practicing poet. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: Jun 3, 2007 1:53 PM >To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] Kim and Durrell and Durrellian similes > >Bill, I think Durrellexplains or justifies his very strange use of metaphor in A Key. I.e., it is part and parcel of his notion of "heraldic"language: "A good poem is a congeries of symbols whichtransfers an enigmatic knowledge to the reader" (p. 90). Andhis metaphors can certainly do that. >Bruce, good point. I just checked and I have that sentenceunderlined in my copy! Durrell claims that one may think about these"symbols" for thought's sake or the poem's. "It should notbe made a topic for degrees and theses." The poem at its highestpower "reflects a metaphysical reality about ourselves and theworld" (p. 90). > >But I am one of Thomas Wolfe's characters who cannot transcend thephysical world. Unlike the Romantic poets, we can never fly -- except ina plane, of course. > >But I wonder if "symbols" are the same as "similes"for Durrell. > >Bill > >*************************************** >W. L.Godshalk * >Department ofEnglish * >University ofCincinnati Stellar disorder * >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >513-281-5927 >*************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 3 14:26:25 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 17:26:25 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell papers Message-ID: <20070603212643.KSFV9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/3a74295b/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sun Jun 3 15:30:21 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 23:30:21 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Mason Message-ID: <038CC0A0-1222-11DC-ADC3-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Re Richards puzzlement over Macon. It occurs to me that in linking Macon with Templars and a Freemasonry alphabet, etc, Durrell may have been playing with the conjunction of themes as deployed by the Freemasons -- which by word association led him to Macon and its council. In other words he had boned up on the entire chain of associations. His knowledge of other councils may well have been nil. Richard just happened to push the right button. :Michael From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun Jun 3 17:27:34 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 20:27:34 -0400 Subject: [ilds] travel and romance In-Reply-To: <466329D5.5020002@wfu.edu> References: <7C06756A-1169-11DC-A4E4-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070603011556.ILZS9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <007001c7a5ae$8a5de3d0$0100000a@DSC01> <20070603163002.HTWZ7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070603164759.HVCF7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <466310FC.8050406@interdesign.fr> <20070603203131.KXGY3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <466329D5.5020002@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070604002721.LFKX9981.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070603/c76164e2/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sun Jun 3 18:11:55 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 02:11:55 +0100 Subject: [ilds] infringement: the law Message-ID: <961A27FA-1238-11DC-ADC3-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> The equivocations of academics are a glory to behold; I am gaining a new respect for lawyers. I am looking at The Writers' and Artists' Yearbook, published by A&C Black, London, and this is what it tells me about US copyright law: Criminal proceedings in respect of copyright * Anyone who infringes a copyright wilfully and for purposes of commercial advantage and private financial gain shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned for not more than 3 years, or both. * Following a conviction for criminal infringement a court may in addition to these penalties order the forfeiture and destruction of all infringing copies and records, together with implements and equipment used in their manufacture. * It is also an offence knowingly and with fraudulent intent to place on any article a notice of copyright or words of the same purport, or to import or distribute such copies. A fine is provided for this offence of not more than $2500. There are also civil remedies that copyright holders can pursue in the courts. These include injunctions, impounding books, destroying books, obtaining damages and a share of profits. Although I do not immediately see infringement defined in accordance with American law, the yearbook does outline infringement as it might be viewed by a British court, and I would guess that an American court would not take so very different a view. 'Infringement may occur where an existing work provides the inspiration for a later one, if copying results, eg by including edited extracts from a history book in a novel. ... Infringement will not necessarily be prevented merely by the application of significant new skill and labour by the infringer.' :Michael -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1779 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070604/1002f5c2/attachment.bin From durrells at otenet.gr Sun Jun 3 21:22:51 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 07:22:51 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell References: <00a201c7a5b0$191f3050$0100000a@DSC01> <6C43C42D-11D7-11DC-BF73-000393B1149C@btinternet.com><20070603160508.HSFB7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <4662FFB0.4070602@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <003d01c7a660$03ac1930$0100000a@DSC01> It's a very Yeatsian tic. RP ----- Original Message ----- From: slighcl To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] Atkinson and Durrell On 6/3/2007 12:05 PM, william godshalk wrote: Yes, gentle folks, "as it were" is the giveaway. Durrell wrote that one. Nice job, Richard & Co. An interesting alignment of passages, Godshalk Sahib. But then I would expect no less from so many old hands trained in playing the "Jewel Game." Any thoughts about Durrell's stylistic tic, his habitual use of the "as if" and "as it were"? Bill can give us some examples of the former, I know, as he has asked me before if I have noted tendency to pitch his similes in that characteristic phrasing. I would love to play along but I am catching the plane to London. CLS 'Gently - gently,' the man replied, and from a drawer under the table dealt a half-handful of clattering trifles into the tray. 'Now,' said the child, waving an old newspaper. 'Look on them as long as thou wilt, stranger. Count and, if need be, handle. One look is enough for me.' He turned his back proudly. 'But what is the game?' 'When thou hast counted and handled and art sure that thou canst remember them all, I cover them with this paper, and thou must tell over the tally to Lurgan Sahib. I will write mine.' 'Oah!' The instinct of competition waked in his breast. He bent over the tray. There were but fifteen stones on it. 'That is easy,' he said after a minute. The child slipped the paper over the winking jewels and scribbled in a native account-book. 'There are under that paper five blue stones - one big, one smaller, and three small,' said Kim, all in haste. 'There are four green stones, and one with a hole in it; there is one yellow stone that I can see through, and one like a pipe-stem. There are two red stones, and - and - I made the count fifteen, but two I have forgotten. No! Give me time. One was of ivory, little and brownish; and - and - give me time...' 'One - two' - Lurgan Sahib counted him out up to ten. Kim shook his head. 'Hear my count!' the child burst in, trilling with laughter. 'First, are two flawed sapphires - one of two ruttees and one of four as I should judge. The four-ruttee sapphire is chipped at the edge. There is one Turkestan turquoise, plain with black veins, and there are two inscribed - one with a Name of God in gilt, and the other being cracked across, for it came out of an old ring, I cannot read. We have now all five blue stones. Four flawed emeralds there are, but one is drilled in two places, and one is a little carven-' 'Their weights?' said Lurgan Sahib impassively. 'Three - five - five - and four ruttees as I judge it. There is one piece of old greenish pipe amber, and a cut topaz from Europe. There is one ruby of Burma, of two ruttees, without a flaw, and there is a balas-ruby, flawed, of two ruttees. There is a carved ivory from China representing a rat sucking an egg; and there is last - ah ha! - a ball of crystal as big as a bean set on a gold leaf.' He clapped his hands at the close. 'He is thy master,' said Lurgan Sahib, smiling. 'Huh! He knew the names of the stones,' said Kim, flushing. 'Try again! With common things such as he and I both know.' They heaped the tray again with odds and ends gathered from the shop, and even the kitchen, and every time the child won, till Kim marvelled. -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070604/25bf043e/attachment.html From durrells at otenet.gr Sun Jun 3 22:07:31 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 08:07:31 +0300 Subject: [ilds] Kim and Durrell and Durrellian similes References: <00a201c7a5b0$191f3050$0100000a@DSC01><6C43C42D-11D7-11DC-BF73-000393B1149C@btinternet.com><20070603160508.HSFB7351.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu><4662FFB0.4070602@wfu.edu> <20070603180900.KOBW3373.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <017501c7a666$e04df970$0100000a@DSC01> 'Kim was our bedside book' - LD ----- Original Message ----- From: william godshalk To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 9:09 PM Subject: [ilds] Kim and Durrell and Durrellian similes Thank you, Sligh Sahib. We must train our memories and our powers of observation. Or rely on books. About the similes, Ian MacNiven and I discussed this Durrellian tendency years ago. As I recall, our conclusion was not monumental. We agreed that Larry sure did use strange similes. But why we did not know. Shakespeare sometimes uses similes to indicate doubt. See Hamlet 1.1 passim. Is it not like the king? But I don't think that was D's reason. Bill At 01:51 PM 6/3/2007, you wrote: On 6/3/2007 12:05 PM, william godshalk wrote: Yes, gentle folks, "as it were" is the giveaway. Durrell wrote that one. Nice job, Richard & Co. An interesting alignment of passages, Godshalk Sahib. But then I would expect no less from so many old hands trained in playing the "Jewel Game." Any thoughts about Durrell's stylistic tic, his habitual use of the "as if" and "as it were"? Bill can give us some examples of the former, I know, as he has asked me before if I have noted tendency to pitch his similes in that characteristic phrasing. I would love to play along but I am catching the plane to London. CLS 'Gently - gently,' the man replied, and from a drawer under the table dealt a half-handful of clattering trifles into the tray. 'Now,' said the child, waving an old newspaper. 'Look on them as long as thou wilt, stranger. Count and, if need be, handle. One look is enough for me.' He turned his back proudly. 'But what is the game?' 'When thou hast counted and handled and art sure that thou canst remember them all, I cover them with this paper, and thou must tell over the tally to Lurgan Sahib. I will write mine.' 'Oah!' The instinct of competition waked in his breast. He bent over the tray. There were but fifteen stones on it. 'That is easy,' he said after a minute. The child slipped the paper over the winking jewels and scribbled in a native account-book. 'There are under that paper five blue stones - one big, one smaller, and three small,' said Kim, all in haste. 'There are four green stones, and one with a hole in it; there is one yellow stone that I can see through, and one like a pipe-stem. There are two red stones, and - and - I made the count fifteen, but two I have forgotten. No! Give me time. One was of ivory, little and brownish; and - and - give me time...' 'One - two' - Lurgan Sahib counted him out up to ten. Kim shook his head. 'Hear my count!' the child burst in, trilling with laughter. 'First, are two flawed sapphires - one of two ruttees and one of four as I should judge. The four-ruttee sapphire is chipped at the edge. There is one Turkestan turquoise, plain with black veins, and there are two inscribed - one with a Name of God in gilt, and the other being cracked across, for it came out of an old ring, I cannot read. We have now all five blue stones. Four flawed emeralds there are, but one is drilled in two places, and one is a little carven-' 'Their weights?' said Lurgan Sahib impassively. 'Three - five - five - and four ruttees as I judge it. There is one piece of old greenish pipe amber, and a cut topaz from Europe. There is one ruby of Burma, of two ruttees, without a flaw, and there is a balas-ruby, flawed, of two ruttees. There is a carved ivory from China representing a rat sucking an egg; and there is last - ah ha! - a ball of crystal as big as a bean set on a gold leaf.' He clapped his hands at the close. 'He is thy master,' said Lurgan Sahib, smiling. 'Huh! He knew the names of the stones,' said Kim, flushing. 'Try again! With common things such as he and I both know.' They heaped the tray again with odds and ends gathered from the shop, and even the kitchen, and every time the child won, till Kim marvelled. -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu **********************_______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2305 (20070601) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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