From slighcl at wfu.edu Mon Apr 30 04:47:58 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:47:58 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- "pegamoid" words, words, words In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4635D76E.4010409@wfu.edu> On 4/29/2007 11:57 PM, Michael Haag wrote: > Surely these are not new words, simply Durrell being cited to support > definitions. > > :Michael Yes, that is the procedure for the /Oxford English Dictionary/. It provides a chronological record of significant uses of words as well as new uses. LD thus becomes credited with keeping the word in use, or reviving it in some novel way, or introducing it into English. The important point is that LD becomes tied to the history of the word, becomes (to use a Durrellian coinage) /refunded /into the larger culture. It is not difficult to find younger writers borrowing whole phrases from LD. The other day I spotted a young economist who wrote about a CEO riding up to his office in a "sarcaphogus of tubular steel and lighted glass." Then of course there are the borrowings in Burroughs, Acker, &c. Then in films like /Flirting /and /Stranger than Fiction/. LD survives in curious ways, and to look for his posthumous presence only in book reviews, book sales (!), classrooms (!!), or academic monographs (!!!) is to give an impression more grim than true. Charles > > > > On Monday, April 30, 2007, at 04:49 am, slighcl wrote: > > "He is a pegamoid sloth of a man" (1.12). LD really does give us > pockets full of new words in these opening pages. In order to > reassure all of those readers who kept note cards of unknown words > from their first reading of Justine, here follows all 50 words > that LD's novel contributed to the Oxford English Dictionary. > For comparison, Woolf's To the Lighthouse is referenced 46 times. > > It pleases me that the "great car" and Scobie and Pursewarden make > the list. The inconsistent dating for LD's novel is more > problematic: > > 1 1607 *desireless*, a. 1957 L. Durrell Justine i. 84 As for me > I was cons > 2 c725 *horn*, n. 1957 L. Durrell Justine ii. 141 The same > night, on > 3 1511 *hub*1 1957 L. Durrell Justine 27 The great > silver Rolls > 4 1838 *invert*, n. 1957 L. Durrell Justine > ii. 96 At least the invert > 5 c1175 *John *1957 L. Durrell Justine 249 She > had neatly tied hi > 6 1855 *kinetic*, a. (n.) 1957 L. Durrell > Justine ii. 134 It was these very > 7 1793 *manhole*, n. 1957 L. Durrell Justine > iv. 227, I stepped into th > 8 1854 * mariage de convenance*, n. 1957 L. > Durrell Justine iv. 235 Someone trapped in > 9 1877 *mari complaisant*, n. 1958 L. Durrell > Justine 1. 29 She was reputed to h > 10 c1330 *marvellous *| marvelous, a., adv., and n. > 1956 L. Durrell Justine i. 18 A door had suddenly > 11 1340 *measure*, v. 1957 L. Durrell Justine i. 24 Reflecting on > this h > 12 OE *miss*, v.1 1957 L. Durrell Justine iii. 210 People only see i > 13 1530 *mission*, n. 1957 L. Durrell Justine ii. 113 The mission > of the > 14 1570 *model*, n. and a. 1957 L. Durrell Justine i. 34 He had a > model of th > 15 1474 *mordant*, a. 1957 L. Durrell Justine iii. 212 His view of > thing > 16 1528 *mumchance*, n. and a. 1957 L. Durrell Justine ii. 133 For > my part I rema > 17 1957 *mutil?*, n. 1957 L. Durrell Justine iii. 187 His > expression be > 18 OE *open*, v. 1956 L. Durrell Justine iii, I am about to say som > 19 1191 *pack*, n.1 1957 L. Durrell Justine iii. 180 Justine .. would > 20 1662 *palatable*, a. 1956 L. Durrell Justine i, Excuses which > might mak > 21 ?a1425 *palpitation*, n. 1956 L. Durrell Justine i, In autumn > the female ba > 22 1340 *pearl*, n.1 and a. 1957 L. Durrell Justine i. 13 A sky of > hot nude pe > 23 1895 *pegamoid*, n. and a. 1957 L. Durrell Justine i. 21 He is > a pegamoid slo > 24 ?a1425 *penetration*, n. 1957 L. Durrell Justine iii. 185 The > whole portent > 25 c1460 *personage*, n. 1957 L. Durrell Justine ii. 134 It was > these very > 26 1874* petit mal*, n. 1957 L. Durrell Justine iii. 160 An > occasional hea > 27 c1230 *plaint*, n. 1957 L. Durrell Justine i. 43 Professional > mourner > 28 c1387 *poignant*, adj. 1956 L. Durrell Justine ii. 134 By the > bed the ric > 29 1581 *pole*, v.1 1957 L. Durrell Justine iii. 215 Faraj is out > poli > 30 1601 *potentia *1957 L. Durrell Justine i. 75 Life, the new materi > 31 re-, *prefix *1957 L. Durrell Justine iii. 199 The resonance of > 32 13.. *recover*, v.1 1957 L. Durrell Justine iv. 233 It is > strange when > 33 1685 *refugee*, n. 1957 L. Durrell Justine i. 39 You are a > mental ref > 34 1760 *rictus *1957 L. Durrell Justine ii. 107 This ghastly rictu > 35 1752 *scene-shifter *1957 L. Durrell Justine ii. 102 Quick as a > scene-s > 36 1579 *scoutmaster*, scout-master 1957 L. Durrell Justine ii. > 124 I've done quite a > 37 1393 *screen*, n.1 1957 L. Durrell Justine i. 78 It is perhaps > what t > 38 c1470 *scrimmage*, scrummage, n. 1957 L. Durrell Justine iii. > 185 The whole portent > 39 1885 *scupper*, v. 1957 L. Durrell Justine iii. 155 You can > help us s > 40 1569 *shark*, n.1 1957 L. Durrell Justine iii. 183 Now in his > ice-sm > 41 1847 *smarm*, v. 1957 L. Durrell Justine ii. 143 He is a > complete p > 42 1481 *smoulder*, v. 1957 L. Durrell Justine i. 69 She seemed to > smould > 43 a1300 *spit*, n.2 1957 L. Durrell Justine i. 37 A spitcurl at > each t > 44 1857 *spring-cleaning *1957 L. Durrell Justine i. 23 It was > thrown away b > 45 1908 *strap-hang,* v. 1957 L. Durrell Justine i. 53 Here, where > the gene > 46 c1400 *substitute*, n. 1956 L. Durrell Justine i. 78 For her > we, her love > 47 1598 *tarot *1957 L. Durrell Justine iii. 180 Justine .. would > 48 1885 *ushabti *1957 L. Durrell Justine i. 57 The air was all at o > 49 1796 *vicariously*, adv. 1957 L. Durrell Justine ii. 127 Those > interminable > 50 1909 *voulu*, a. (n.) 1957 L. Durrell Justine ii. 132 The idea > is not sp > > > > > > -- > ********************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > Wake Forest University > _slighcl at wfu.edu_ > ********************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070430/376bde3d/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon Apr 30 12:02:56 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:02:56 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- ambiguity and intention In-Reply-To: <46FEAA5E-F6D1-11DB-9415-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <46FEAA5E-F6D1-11DB-9415-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070430190257.ZYYQ26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070430/2c7f15ef/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Mon Apr 30 13:41:17 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:41:17 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- ambiguity and intention In-Reply-To: <20070430190257.ZYYQ26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <24F65C8C-F75B-11DB-8F86-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Do you mean what you say? On Monday, April 30, 2007, at 08:02 pm, william godshalk wrote: > > What I am not happy with is the imputation of ambiguity where there is > none. > > Michael > > Okay, I'll give you lack of ambiguity where there is none, if you give > me the pervasive ambiguity of intention. > > > See Wimsatt's The Verbal Icon for the "intentional fallacy." > > Bill > > > > > ? > ? > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 750 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070430/372e68a5/attachment.bin From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Mon Apr 30 13:44:51 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:44:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] RG 1.6 -- the narrator meets Justine Message-ID: <30811720.1177965891385.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070430/1c5999ca/attachment.html From bskordil at otenet.gr Mon Apr 30 13:56:21 2007 From: bskordil at otenet.gr (Beatrice Skordili) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:56:21 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG 1.6 -- the narrator meets Justine References: <24126568-F5F4-11DB-AF53-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <09f701c78a87$7c262080$e2ddcb57@lacan><46350345.20408@wfu.edu> <46350B98.7010405@interdesign.fr> Message-ID: <016201c78b6a$02c975a0$1b7a4a55@lacan> Oh, but you are so very right: Not only am I so terribly ambiguous, but I am so very awfully pretentious! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Piel" To: Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 12:18 AM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG 1.6 -- the narrator meets Justine Please excuse me for being very basic: how can anyone say that the "narator" played tricks on the reader??? 1. the narator is LD himself. 2. It is a novel that intrigues the reader and holds him/her in suspense. Surely this is not "tricking" but a great writing tallent??? It seems to me that anyone who feels tricked, is very pretentious! Or is it something else that I don"t understand? Marc Piel slighcl wrote: > Beata Beatrix! I am excited about your post. It raises some basic > issues--not only of reading and interpretation--but also of the > textual-bibliographical history of the Quartet. > > You write that: > >> The narrator plays tricks on the reader. A couple of times in the >> beginning he mentions Justine, but he goes on to discuss Melissa. >> The woman "walking idly towards the town in her white sandals" >> "yawning" is not Justine, but Melissa who has just woken up from >> her afternoon nap, because she works at night. > > I agree about the indeterminacy of the women and how they shade into > each other like mirages--like Alex seen from the sea upon approach. > Bill Godshalk and I have been talking about that indeterminacy for > several years now. Perhaps Jamie can pull our old postings from 2003 so > we will not repeat too much? > > But in short your observation--and it is helpful and acute in > itself!--must take us to asking, what text of Justine you are using? > > * > > All early Fabers (1957 - 1962) will leave the flux and > indeterminacy open, letting you interpret that woman in > 1.10 as perhaps being Melissa. After all, Melissa has > been colored as an "afternoon" presence in 1.4, the > section with a little "coloured stall" with its ices. > > * > > All post-1962 Faber Justine printings will follow the > single volume additions and corrections, where that line > reads: > > "This is the hour least easy to bear, when from my > balcony I catch an unexpected glimpse of her walking > idly towards the town in her white sandals, still half > asleep. Justine!" (1.10) > > + You write again that > >> Only at 1.10 starting "I have had many glimpses of >> her" does the narrator start describing Justine. > > Here I think that you mean 1.11, but again your post > brings out the differences in the text. The 1957 > Faber does read "many such glimpses of her"; the 1962 > reads "many such glimpses of Justine." > > The differences, Beatrice, as you already know from our old > conversations in Cincinatti & Corfu & from your own writings, makes a > "world" of difference for how the reader experiences these first > glimpses of Alex and her women. Both the 1957 and 1962 versions of > Justine are legitimate and represents LD's method in the particular > historical moment. Both need preserving in the record--they are > "possible" Justines. But I for one will always enjoy the open > possibilities of the 1957-1962 printings. (American Dutton/Penguin > printings are based on the earliest available plates, so they persist > with the indeterminacy.) I have been asking for a long time why LD moved > to isolate and specify the women. As a reader who has learned a great > deal about reading among indeterminacies from the Quartet, I would have > counseled him otherwise. As an editor, I hold on to the historical > differences. > > So what text are you reading from these days, Beatrice? And while we > are talking, what text does the Greek translator follow?--or (here to > Marc) what did the French translator use? How about Aurora Bernardez > (Julio Cortazar's wife)--which version does she follow in the those > wonderful Spanish translations? > > Why should we only have one perspective! > > CLS > > -- > ********************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > Wake Forest University > slighcl at wfu.edu > ********************** > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon Apr 30 17:59:27 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:59:27 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- ambiguity and intention In-Reply-To: <24F65C8C-F75B-11DB-8F86-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <20070430190257.ZYYQ26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <24F65C8C-F75B-11DB-8F86-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070501005919.CFEK26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070430/1b36fcac/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon Apr 30 18:07:45 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:07:45 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG 1.6 -- the narrator and Beatrice (not Dante's) In-Reply-To: <016201c78b6a$02c975a0$1b7a4a55@lacan> References: <24126568-F5F4-11DB-AF53-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <09f701c78a87$7c262080$e2ddcb57@lacan> <46350345.20408@wfu.edu> <46350B98.7010405@interdesign.fr> <016201c78b6a$02c975a0$1b7a4a55@lacan> Message-ID: <20070501010747.CGKA26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070430/5885a1b2/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Mon Apr 30 18:20:22 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:20:22 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG 1.6 -- intention of the artist? In-Reply-To: <30811720.1177965891385.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa .earthlink.net> References: <30811720.1177965891385.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070501012014.BXFH28783.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070430/383d4095/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Tue May 1 08:47:55 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 16:47:55 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.19 -- my sister, my bride (bridegroom) Message-ID: <53ECC366-F7FB-11DB-8F1B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> I wonder what people make of that last sentence in Justine 1.19: 'I think of Melissa once more: hortus conclusus, soror mea sponsor'. The Latin is from the Song of Solomon, 4.12: 'A garden enclosed is my sister, my bride'. Except that in Latin that would be: 'Hortus conclusus, soror mea sponsa'. Sponsor is presumably Durrell's attempt at the masculine, which I think ought to be sponsus. In any case he seems to have deliberately altered the feminine to the masculine, so that the phrase reads: 'A garden enclosed is my sister, my bridegroom'. :Michael From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 1 09:06:06 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 12:06:06 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- 1.22 lashings of sex Message-ID: <20070501160556.GIRA26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070501/63a531d4/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 1 09:20:27 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 12:20:27 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.19 -- my sister, my bride (bridegroom) In-Reply-To: <53ECC366-F7FB-11DB-8F1B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <53ECC366-F7FB-11DB-8F1B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070501162028.GDPF485.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070501/52f664dd/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Tue May 1 09:31:24 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 17:31:24 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- 1.22 lashings of sex In-Reply-To: <20070501160556.GIRA26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <672E3CE8-F801-11DB-8F1B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> By the time we reach 1.22 we are deep into the gnostics and Plotinus. One needs to be aware of that. For example, at the beginning of the fourth paragraph in 1.22, Darley says 'And is this the way?', to which Justine says 'I do not know', and again 'I do not know'. This is a variation on 'How lies the path?, the question Plotinus asks in the Ennead. Durrell follows this up later in Justine where, just after Nessim's historical dreams, he has Nessim talking of escape but saying 'This is no journey for the feet, however', which continues that same segment of the Ennead. :Michael On Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 05:06 pm, william godshalk wrote: > Justine says to the narrator: "You thought I simply wanted to make > love? God! haven't we had enough of that?"? Does she mean in general > or with the narrator? Either way things look pretty bleak for the > narrator's sex life (1.22). > > A bit later in the same episode (1.22), he remembers Justine saying > "After all, . . . this has nothing to do with sex," which the narrator > goes on to interpret as the "desperate attempt to dissociate the flesh > from the message it carried." > > Later on Pursewarden in 2.6 tells the narrator "the secret of my > novelist's trade. I am a success, you a failure. The answer, old man, > is sex and plenty of it." > > Is Pursewarden right about the narrator? Does his writing lack > lashings of sex? > > And how much sex does the narrator really get from Justine? She > apparently likes to take her clothes off around him, but does the > Check keep her from actually making love with him? > > WLG_______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1743 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070501/2020c571/attachment.bin From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Tue May 1 09:44:07 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 17:44:07 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.20 et seq Message-ID: <2DB1EC0C-F803-11DB-8F1B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Here are the relevant lines from the Ennead by Plotinus. You will find their echo throughout Justine, and sometimes quoted word for word. 'How lies the path? How come to vision of the inaccessible Beauty? ... Let us flee to the beloved Fatherland. This is the soundest counsel. But what is the flight? How are we to gain the open sea? The Fatherland is There whence we have come, and There is the Father. What then is our course, what the manner of our flight? This is not a journey for the feet; the feet bring us only from land to land; all this order of things you must set aside and refuse to see; you must close the eyes and call instead upon another vision which is to be waked within you, a vision the birthright of all, which few can see. ... Withdraw into yourself and look. ... you are now become very vision; now call up all your confidence, strike forward yet a step -- you need a guide no longer -- strain and see.' :Michael From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Tue May 1 10:01:24 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:01:24 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] RG 1.6 -- intention of the artist? Message-ID: <18572623.1178038884242.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070501/3a63ebe2/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 1 10:54:28 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 13:54:28 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG 1.6 -- intention of the artist? In-Reply-To: <18572623.1178038884242.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa. earthlink.net> References: <18572623.1178038884242.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070501175429.GRON28783.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070501/d996e2c0/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 1 12:44:48 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 15:44:48 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- 1.22 lashings of sex In-Reply-To: <672E3CE8-F801-11DB-8F1B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <20070501160556.GIRA26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <672E3CE8-F801-11DB-8F1B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070501194519.HRSO28783.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070501/addd9531/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 1 13:31:18 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 16:31:18 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- 1.22 Justine stamps her foot in the wet sand In-Reply-To: <20070501194519.HRSO28783.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.emai l.uc.edu> References: <20070501160556.GIRA26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <672E3CE8-F801-11DB-8F1B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070501194519.HRSO28783.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070501203138.IHUI485.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> "She stamped her foot in the wet sand" (1.22). The narrator says that it was "as if some long-disused mineshaft in my own character had suddenly fallen in." Later entering his own room, he says that he could "still see the imprint of Justine's foot in the wet sand." In his mind's eye, I suppose. My fourth wife would do things like that: stamp her foot and tell me that I would feel the butt of her raft. Seriously I think. And I would roar in laughter. Had I been the narrator, I would have laughed at Justine, stamping her foot into the wet sand. How silly. But the narrator seems impressed. Why? WLG *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Tue May 1 14:01:01 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 22:01:01 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- 1.22 lashings of sex In-Reply-To: <20070501194519.HRSO28783.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <112E2142-F827-11DB-8AD1-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Not that, but they may come to understand what they are doing with sex. In his first notebook for Justine, Durrell wrote: 'Sex as a parody of the soul's pleasure in its conjunction, like the meeting of two images in a prism.' And in the published Justine he wrote: 'It was not sex they offered ... but like true inhabitants of Alexandria, the deep forgetfulness of parturition' (AQ 1962 edition page 153). In other words, following Plotinus, it is the many fractured beings we have become, seeking to rediscover their wholeness in the One. Durrell gets his mirrors, fragments and prisms from Plotinus who used all those images first. Furthermore Plotinus frequently used the imagery of sensual love to express this spiritual seeking and union, so that the lover, excited by a beautiful face, a beautiful body, has the memory of the greater beauty beyond. The particular piece in the Ennead to read is On Beauty. :Michael On Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 08:44 pm, william godshalk wrote: > Michael, > > Thank you for pointing this out. I have not picked up my Plotinus in > many years. I will have to find it -- and read. > > I gather that you are implying, as the characters get more instruction > from Balthazar, the less the characters will be jerked around by > sexual desire? > > Bill > > At 12:31 PM 5/1/2007, you wrote: > > By the time we reach 1.22 we are deep into the gnostics and Plotinus. > One needs to be aware of that.? For example, at the beginning of the > fourth paragraph in 1.22, Darley says 'And is this the way?', to which > Justine says 'I do not know', and again 'I do not know'.? This is a > variation on 'How lies the path?, the question Plotinus asks in the > Ennead.? Durrell follows this up later in Justine where, just after > Nessim's historical dreams, he has Nessim talking of escape but saying > 'This is no journey for the feet, however', which continues that same > segment of the Ennead. > > :Michael > > > On Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 05:06? pm, william godshalk wrote: > > Justine says to the narrator: "You thought I simply wanted to make > love? God! haven't we had enough of that?"? Does she mean in general > or with the narrator? Either way things look pretty bleak for the > narrator's sex life (1.22). > > A bit later in the same episode (1.22), he remembers Justine saying > "After all, . . . this has nothing to do with sex," which the narrator > goes on to interpret as the "desperate attempt to dissociate the flesh > from the message it carried." > > Later on Pursewarden in 2.6 tells the narrator "the secret of my > novelist's trade. I am a success, you a failure. The answer, old man, > is sex and plenty of it." > > Is Pursewarden right about the narrator? Does his writing lack > lashings of sex? > > And how much sex does the narrator really get from Justine? She > apparently likes to take her clothes off around him, but does the > Check keep her from actually making love with him? > > WLG_______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > >
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> > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3627 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070501/e5469070/attachment.bin From godshawl at email.uc.edu Tue May 1 15:06:58 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 18:06:58 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- 1.22 lashings of sex In-Reply-To: <112E2142-F827-11DB-8AD1-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <20070501194519.HRSO28783.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <112E2142-F827-11DB-8AD1-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070501220818.ISLW28783.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070501/777e1e9c/attachment.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 2 11:09:27 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 14:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.19 -- my sister, my bride (bridegroom) Message-ID: <32201659.1178129367276.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> On 5/1/07, Michael Haag writes: >I wonder what people make of that last sentence in Justine 1.19: 'I >think of Melissa once more: hortus conclusus, soror mea sponsor'. The >Latin is from the Song of Solomon, 4.12: 'A garden enclosed is my >sister, my bride'. Except that in Latin that would be: 'Hortus >conclusus, soror mea sponsa'. Sponsor is presumably Durrell's attempt >at the masculine, which I think ought to be sponsus. In any case he >seems to have deliberately altered the feminine to the masculine, so >that the phrase reads: 'A garden enclosed is my sister, my bridegroom'. * * * * * Michael's observation is intriguing and makes me wonder what Durrell had in mind. The alteration of the Latin is probably deliberate, although possibly a lapse in memory. I find it hard to imagine, however, that Durrell committed any part of the Latin Vulgate to memory. Indeed, I find it hard to imagine he even carried along a copy of it anywhere. Who does, besides old Catholic priests? So what's the actual source? That might help. My first reaction was similar to Godshalk's: Durrell's sponsor/bridegroom alludes either to bisexuality, or to incest, my preference. Byron came to mind. But I can't find Byron using "hortus conclusus" anywhere. Incest comes up with Pusewarden and Liza, but why Darley would associate incest with Melissa is not entirely clear. Another alternative. As Michael points out, at this point in Justine, 1.19, we're entering the world of Hellenistic philosophy. Justine herself is introducing Plotinus. The hortus conclusus bears similarity to Epicurus's "Garden," which is the main emblem associated with the Epicureans. You'll recall that philosophy was pleasure based (but not hedonistic) and advocated a kind of withdrawal from the ills of the world, freedom from fear, etc. Hence the appropriateness of the enclosed garden as symbol of such. Epicureanism has always struck me as a tired philosophy, just as Melissa, "the patron of sorrow," is tired and exhausted from both sickness and pleasure. She is Greek, and Epicurus was Greek (4th-3rd cen. BC). She's from Smyrna, he from Samos -- similar names, same general location in the Aegean. Justine is born an Alexandrian Jew. Plotinus was born in Egypt, had a Roman name, but his language was Greek. He, of course, was an Alexandrian (3rd cen. AD). I seem recall some bit of apocrypha that he was Jewish, but I may be wrong here. So, perhaps Durrell's recollection of Melissa as "hortus conclusus, soror mea sponsor" marks a transition from one kind of life (living with Melissa) to another (carrying on with Justine), from one set of philosophical underpinnings (Epicureanism) to another (Neo-platonism/Gnosticism). The temporal progression of philosophical schools also fits, 3rd cen. BC to 3rd cen. AD. Appropriately enough, the next sections begins with Justine speaking, "'Regard derisoire,' says Justine. 'How is it you are so much one of us and yet . . . you are not?'" Well, the answer is, things are about to change. Darley is about to leave his incestuous garden with Melissa and enter another secret world. Bruce From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed May 2 11:46:35 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 14:46:35 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.19 -- my sister, my bride (bridegroom) In-Reply-To: <32201659.1178129367276.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.s a.earthlink.net> References: <32201659.1178129367276.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070502184634.PFHD485.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070502/b3df14b0/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed May 2 12:01:27 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 15:01:27 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- 1.22 Justine stamps her foot in the wet sand In-Reply-To: <20070501203138.IHUI485.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email. uc.edu> References: <20070501160556.GIRA26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <672E3CE8-F801-11DB-8F1B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070501194519.HRSO28783.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070501203138.IHUI485.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070502190136.PIUZ485.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070502/d9969f24/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed May 2 12:25:23 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 15:25:23 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine -- 1.22 foot in the wet sand -- Robinson Crusoe In-Reply-To: <20070502190136.PIUZ485.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email. uc.edu> References: <20070501160556.GIRA26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <672E3CE8-F801-11DB-8F1B-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070501194519.HRSO28783.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070501203138.IHUI485.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070502190136.PIUZ485.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070502192553.POOT485.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070502/3f6996e8/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed May 2 14:04:22 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 17:04:22 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.19 -- my sister, my bride (bridegroom) In-Reply-To: <32201659.1178129367276.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.s a.earthlink.net> References: <32201659.1178129367276.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070502210502.QKIP485.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> "Plotinus never discussed his ancestry, childhood, or his place or date of birth," says the Wikipedia. Now who in the novel does that sound like? Durrell suggests that Plotinus had a "square negro head reverberating with a concept of God conceived in the spirit of pure intellectual play" (first edition, 39). WLG *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 2 15:56:48 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 15:56:48 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.19 -- my sister, my bride (bridegroom) Message-ID: <17858879.1178146608477.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >From: Bruce Redwine >Sent: May 2, 2007 3:55 PM >To: william godshalk >Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 1.19 -- my sister, my bride (bridegroom) > >Plotinus: "The main facts of his life are known from Porphyry's memoir (prefixed to editions of the Enneads). His birthplace, on which Porphyry is silent, is said by Eunapius and the Suda to have been Lyco or Lycopolis in Egypt, but his name is Roman, while his native language was almost certainly Greek" (Oxford Classical Dictionary, 3rd ed., 1996). > >Eunapius was born in Sardis, near Smyrna, about 345 AD. He was a Neoplatonist. I think he had the inside track on the Wikipedia. > >Lycopolis was at Asyut, roughly 300 miles up the Nile from Alexandria. > >Since Lycopolis was well up the Nile, certainly not "Alexandria ad Aegyptum," that is, Alexandria by Egypt, not in it, perhaps the narrator of Justine equates the place with "dark" Africa. > >Dunno know who sounds like who. > >BR > >-----Original Message----- >>From: william godshalk >>Sent: May 2, 2007 2:04 PM >>To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 1.19 -- my sister, my bride (bridegroom) >> >>"Plotinus never discussed his ancestry, childhood, or his place or >>date of birth," says the Wikipedia. >> >>Now who in the novel does that sound like? >> >>Durrell suggests that Plotinus had a "square negro head reverberating >>with a concept of God conceived in the spirit of pure intellectual >>play" (first edition, 39). >> >> From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Wed May 2 16:32:23 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 00:32:23 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.19 -- my sister, my bride (bridegroom) In-Reply-To: <17858879.1178146608477.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <60EFDD85-F905-11DB-8059-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Plotinus was reticent about his origins because, as E M Forster put it, 'the descent of his soul into his body had been a great misfortune, which he did not desire to discuss'. The 'negro head' is odd. That is purely Durrell's invention. One reason it is odd is that it gives the impression of Plotinus originating far upriver, much farther upriver than Assiout (Lycopolis). Yet Durrell also describes Plotinus as conceiving of God in the spirit of pure intellectual play [1.20], a quality which he associates later in that same section with 'the scepticism of the Greek' and 'the mental play of the Mediterranean mind'. There are times when one thinks that Durrell just makes things up without caring if they hang together. :Michael On Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 11:56 pm, Bruce Redwine wrote: > >> From: Bruce Redwine >> Sent: May 2, 2007 3:55 PM >> To: william godshalk >> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 1.19 -- my sister, my bride >> (bridegroom) >> >> Plotinus: "The main facts of his life are known from Porphyry's >> memoir (prefixed to editions of the Enneads). His birthplace, on >> which Porphyry is silent, is said by Eunapius and the Suda to have >> been Lyco or Lycopolis in Egypt, but his name is Roman, while his >> native language was almost certainly Greek" (Oxford Classical >> Dictionary, 3rd ed., 1996). >> >> Eunapius was born in Sardis, near Smyrna, about 345 AD. He was a >> Neoplatonist. I think he had the inside track on the Wikipedia. >> >> Lycopolis was at Asyut, roughly 300 miles up the Nile from Alexandria. >> >> Since Lycopolis was well up the Nile, certainly not "Alexandria ad >> Aegyptum," that is, Alexandria by Egypt, not in it, perhaps the >> narrator of Justine equates the place with "dark" Africa. >> >> Dunno know who sounds like who. >> >> BR >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: william godshalk >>> Sent: May 2, 2007 2:04 PM >>> To: Bruce Redwine , ilds at lists.uvic.ca >>> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 1.19 -- my sister, my bride >>> (bridegroom) >>> >>> "Plotinus never discussed his ancestry, childhood, or his place or >>> date of birth," says the Wikipedia. >>> >>> Now who in the novel does that sound like? >>> >>> Durrell suggests that Plotinus had a "square negro head reverberating >>> with a concept of God conceived in the spirit of pure intellectual >>> play" (first edition, 39). >>> >>> > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Wed May 2 17:23:31 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 20:23:31 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.25 -- Plotinus and Justine Message-ID: <20070503002320.RFCB28783.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> >"Plotinus never discussed his ancestry, childhood, or his place or >date of birth," says the Wikipedia. >Dunno know who sounds like who. > >BR I think it sounds like Justine -- or at least how she is described. "Two subjects upon which it was fruitless to question Justine too closely: her age, her origins. . . . Nobody . . . knew all about her with any certainty." No even Nessim or Mnemjian. WLG *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Wed May 2 18:21:52 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 18:21:52 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.25 -- Plotinus and Justine Message-ID: <7050545.1178155312568.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Good point. Particularly in that it adds another strand to the Justine-Plotinus connection. BR -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: May 2, 2007 5:23 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.25 -- Plotinus and Justine > > >"Plotinus never discussed his ancestry, childhood, or his place or > >date of birth," says the Wikipedia. > >>Dunno know who sounds like who. >> >>BR > >I think it sounds like Justine -- or at least how she is described. >"Two subjects upon which it was fruitless to question Justine too >closely: her age, her origins. . . . Nobody . . . knew all about her >with any certainty." No even Nessim or Mnemjian. > >WLG >*************************************** >W. L. Godshalk * >Department of English * >University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >513-281-5927 >*************************************** > > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From godshawl at email.uc.edu Thu May 3 11:53:46 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 14:53:46 -0400 Subject: [ilds] [RG 2003 Justine 2] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070503185355.XJRY26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Jamie writes: >'Moreover, Melissa Artemis seems drenched in irony, from her surname (no >woodsy virgin she) to the fragment from the Vulgate Song of Songs: "I >think of Melissa once more: hortus conclusus, soror mea sponsor" (sec. 19, >p. 39)." And Michael comments: "wonder what people make of that last sentence in Justine 1.19: 'I think of Melissa once more: hortus conclusus, soror mea sponsor'. The Latin is from the Song of Solomon, 4.12: 'A garden enclosed is my sister, my bride'. Except that in Latin that would be: 'Hortus conclusus, soror mea sponsa'. Sponsor is presumably Durrell's attempt at the masculine, which I think ought to be sponsus. In any case he seems to have deliberately altered the feminine to the masculine, so that the phrase reads: 'A garden enclosed is my sister, my bridegroom'." Durrell got his information from a variety of sources, not all of them very scholarly. I wonder if one of the books he was using got the Latin phrase wrong, and Durrell just copied it without thought. I know that's not very helpful -- unless of course you like to hunt for sources. WLG *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From slighcl at wfu.edu Thu May 3 12:23:02 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:23:02 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG 2003 Justine 1.19 -- soror mea sponsor In-Reply-To: <20070503185355.XJRY26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <20070503185355.XJRY26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <463A3696.5080902@wfu.edu> On 5/3/2007 2:53 PM, william godshalk wrote: >Durrell got his information from a variety of sources, not all of >them very scholarly. I wonder if one of the books he was using got >the Latin phrase wrong, and Durrell just copied it without thought. I >know that's not very helpful -- unless of course you like to hunt for sources. > I am uncertain if this info really moves the discussion forward, but here follows a transcription of LD's note in the first of his /Justine /notebooks at the BL: [ 15verso ] _Notes_ Ants passing on the back of the hand [geometric design, in ink and pencil] _Cabalistic_ Hortus conclusus, soror mea sponsor An enclosed garden is my sister, my spouse Fons signatus the sealed fountain Worringer "Abstraction und Einf?hlung' "When Tibullus says 'Primum in mundo fecit deus timroem' (The first thing God made in the world is fear), this very feeling of dread is admitted as the primal root of artistic energy" [Cf. hortus conclusus--/Justine/ 39] -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070503/360a3880/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Thu May 3 15:01:52 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 18:01:52 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG 2003 Justine 1.19 -- soror mea sponsor In-Reply-To: <463A3696.5080902@wfu.edu> References: <20070503185355.XJRY26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <463A3696.5080902@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <463A5BD0.60605@wfu.edu> On 5/3/2007 3:23 PM, slighcl wrote: > Worringer "Abstraction und Einf?hlung' > "When Tibullus says 'Primum in mundo > fecit deus *timroem' *(The first thing God > made in the world is fear), this very feeling > of dread is admitted as the primal root > of artistic energy" There I go mis-typing LD's Latin in the notebooks, multiplying the brokenness of the Creation. LD has in fact written: fecit deus *timorem* God this listserv is really getting Gnostic. We should start typing out our emails in geometrically arranged Greek letters. As a result of this, I now think that the "sponsor" bit is at once LD's innovation and a sort of charm against the Demiurge, ensuring good luck. CLS -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070503/abc3883c/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Thu May 3 16:44:41 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 00:44:41 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG 2003 Justine 1.19 -- soror mea sponsor In-Reply-To: <463A3696.5080902@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <43396B7A-F9D0-11DB-8DF6-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Looks like a slip. And nobody noticed. Bad marks to Durrell and Faber. :Michael On Thursday, May 3, 2007, at 08:23 pm, slighcl wrote: > > > On 5/3/2007 2:53 PM, william godshalk wrote: > > Durrell got his information from a variety of sources, not all of > them very scholarly. I wonder if one of the books he was using got > the Latin phrase wrong, and Durrell just copied it without thought. I > know that's not very helpful -- unless of course you like to hunt for > sources. > > I am uncertain if this info really moves the discussion forward, but > here follows a transcription of LD's note in the first of his Justine > notebooks at the BL: > > [ 15verso ] > > Notes > > Ants passing on the back of the hand > > [geometric design, in ink and pencil] > > Cabalistic > > Hortus conclusus, soror mea sponsor > ? An enclosed garden is my sister, my spouse > ??? Fons signatus? the sealed fountain > > Worringer ?Abstraction und Einf?hlung? > ?When Tibullus says ?Primum in mundo > fecit deus timroem? (The first thing God > made in the world is fear), this very feeling > of dread is admitted as the primal root > of artistic energy? > > [Cf. hortus conclusus?Justine 39] > > > > > > -- > ********************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > Wake Forest University > slighcl at wfu.edu > ********************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1802 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070504/d2aa34e9/attachment.bin From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Thu May 3 17:15:40 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 17:15:40 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] RG 2003 Justine 1.19 -- soror mea sponsor Message-ID: <9285919.1178237740890.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Probably a slip, but I still don't see the source in the notebook, which would have to be verified. The "sponsor" error remains puzzling to me, and I still like Michael's original note on the error. Wilhelm Worringer was a German art historian. What's Durrell doing with a text (Abstraction and Empathy [c. 1907]) in a language he doesn't read? Or does he? This minutia probably leads nowhere. BR -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Haag >Sent: May 3, 2007 4:44 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] RG 2003 Justine 1.19 -- soror mea sponsor > >Looks like a slip. And nobody noticed. Bad marks to Durrell and Faber. > >:Michael > > >On Thursday, May 3, 2007, at 08:23 pm, slighcl wrote: > >> On 5/3/2007 2:53 PM, william godshalk wrote: >> >> Durrell got his information from a variety of sources, not all of >> them very scholarly. I wonder if one of the books he was using got >> the Latin phrase wrong, and Durrell just copied it without thought. I >> know that's not very helpful -- unless of course you like to hunt for >> sources. >> >> I am uncertain if this info really moves the discussion forward, but >> here follows a transcription of LD's note in the first of his Justine >> notebooks at the BL: >> >> [ 15verso ] >> >> Notes >> >> Ants passing on the back of the hand >> >> [geometric design, in ink and pencil] >> >> Cabalistic >> >> Hortus conclusus, soror mea sponsor >> An enclosed garden is my sister, my spouse >> Fons signatus the sealed fountain >> >> Worringer ?Abstraction und Einf?hlung? >> ?When Tibullus says ?Primum in mundo >> fecit deus timroem? (The first thing God >> made in the world is fear), this very feeling >> of dread is admitted as the primal root >> of artistic energy? >> >> [Cf. hortus conclusus?Justine 39] >> -- >> ********************** >> Charles L. Sligh >> Department of English >> Wake Forest University >> slighcl at wfu.edu >> ********************** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ILDS mailing list >> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From slighcl at wfu.edu Thu May 3 19:50:53 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 22:50:53 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG 2003 Justine 1.19 -- soror mea sponsor In-Reply-To: <9285919.1178237740890.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9285919.1178237740890.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <463A9F8D.7020307@wfu.edu> > On 5/3/2007 8:15 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > >Probably a slip, *but I still don't see the source in the notebook*, which would have to be *verified*. The "sponsor" error remains puzzling to me, and I still like Michael's original note on the error. Wilhelm Worringer was a German art historian. *What's Durrell doing with a text (Abstraction and Empathy [c. 1907]) in a language he doesn't read?* Or does he? This minutia probably leads *nowhere*. > > I have verified LD's source for your Bruce. (/Scholars, like Nature, abhor a vacuum/.) And at least part of the botched Latin is not LD's fault. On 15v of the BL /Justine /notebook "Notes for Alex" LD is taking notes from Jung's /Psychological types, or, The Psychology of individuation/ (Baynes trans): > fecit deus *timorem* ' (' The first thing God made in the world was > fear'), this > very feeling of dread is admitted as the primal root of artistic > energy. (361) Jung quotes Worringer throughout. Jung's discussion of the "hortus conclusus" phrase appears on page 285 of the 1953 reprint of /Psychological types, or, The Psychology of individuation. /I believe the "sponsor" slip up is LD's. "We shall have a lot to discuss about that." Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070503/12e957e5/attachment.html From lillios at mail.ucf.edu Thu May 3 19:30:36 2007 From: lillios at mail.ucf.edu (Anna Lillios) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 22:30:36 -0400 Subject: [ilds] The Dark Labyrinth Message-ID: Hi all-- I received this inquiry and do not recall any studies on The Dark Labyrinth and Borges. Can anyone help out??? Dr. Anna Lillios Associate Professor of English Department of English University of Central Florida P.O. Box 161346 Orlando, Florida 32816-1346 Phone: (407) 823-5161 FAX: (407) 823-6582 >>> 5/3/2007 10:31 AM >>> Hi, I am about to begin researching for my dissertation and plan to compare Lawrence Durrell's The Dark Labyrinth with Borges and Robbe-Grillet and their use of the labyrinth motif. However, I am finding it extremely difficult to locate any appropriate documentation to help. Is it possible that you could point me in the right direction? Thank you in anticipation of your help Jackie Worth From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Fri May 4 00:52:39 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 08:52:39 +0100 Subject: [ilds] The Dark Labyrinth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6E732A2C-FA14-11DB-B86F-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> If she knows that little now, she should quit. :Michael On Friday, May 4, 2007, at 03:30 am, Anna Lillios wrote: > Hi all-- > > I received this inquiry and do not recall any studies on The Dark > Labyrinth and Borges. Can anyone help out??? > > Dr. Anna Lillios > Associate Professor of English > Department of English > University of Central Florida > P.O. Box 161346 > Orlando, Florida 32816-1346 > > Phone: (407) 823-5161 > FAX: (407) 823-6582 > >>>> 5/3/2007 10:31 AM >>> > Hi, > > I am about to begin researching for my dissertation and plan to > compare > Lawrence Durrell's The Dark Labyrinth with Borges and Robbe-Grillet > and their use > of the labyrinth motif. > > However, I am finding it extremely difficult to locate any appropriate > documentation to help. > > Is it possible that you could point me in the right direction? > > Thank you in anticipation of your help > Jackie Worth > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Fri May 4 00:55:42 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 08:55:42 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG 2003 Justine 1.19 -- soror mea sponsor In-Reply-To: <463A9F8D.7020307@wfu.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for digging that up, Charles. No surprise that it should be in Jung. Still less surprise that Durrell got it from a secondary source; he frequently gleaned his profundities from secondary sources. As for the significance of this, well, it is one of the most significant things in the whole of Justine. But we will let that pass. :Michael On Friday, May 4, 2007, at 03:50 am, slighcl wrote: > On 5/3/2007 8:15 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: > > Probably a slip, but I still don't see the source in the notebook, > which would have to be verified. The "sponsor" error remains puzzling > to me, and I still like Michael's original note on the error. Wilhelm > Worringer was a German art historian. What's Durrell doing with a > text (Abstraction and Empathy [c. 1907]) in a language he doesn't > read? Or does he? This minutia probably leads nowhere. > > > I have verified LD's source for your Bruce.? (Scholars, like Nature, > abhor a vacuum.)? And at least part of the botched Latin is not LD's > fault. > > On 15v of the BL Justine notebook "Notes for Alex" LD is taking notes > from Jung's Psychological types, or, The Psychology of individuation > (Baynes trans): > > fecit deus timorem ' (' The first thing God made in the world was > fear'), this > very feeling of dread is admitted as the primal root of artistic > energy. (361) > > Jung quotes Worringer throughout. > > Jung's discussion of the "hortus conclusus" phrase appears on page 285 > of the 1953 reprint of Psychological types, or, The Psychology of > individuation.? I believe the "sponsor" slip up is LD's.? > > "We shall have a lot to discuss about that." > > Charles > > -- > ********************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > Wake Forest University > slighcl at wfu.edu > ********************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2246 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070504/f0e7d18c/attachment-0001.bin From sumantranag at gmail.com Fri May 4 02:42:02 2007 From: sumantranag at gmail.com (Sumantra Nag) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 15:12:02 +0530 Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 2, Issue 6_D J Enright and Robert Liddell References: Message-ID: <000a01c78e30$7c5ef200$0201a8c0@intel> I wonder if the discussion on Justine could include references to Robert Liddell (Unreal City - a novel based on Cavafy and Alexandria, about which I have read, without having been able to get the book), and D J Enright's novel Academic Year, also set in Alexandria. There was a group of English writers based in Egypt (Cairo and Alexandria) during or around the time of WWII (there is an intereting reference on the Website http://www.crescentmoon.org.uk/cresmoalex - ALEXANDRIA REVISITED The Alexandria of Lawrence Durrell, C.P. Cavafy, Edmund Keeley and Others by Jeremy Robinson). Liddell was also a travel writer attached to Greece. Sumantra Nag -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070504/c29250df/attachment.html From durrells at otenet.gr Fri May 4 06:00:05 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:00:05 +0300 Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 2, Issue 6_D J Enright and Robert Liddell References: <000a01c78e30$7c5ef200$0201a8c0@intel> Message-ID: <004b01c78e4c$22d9db70$0100000a@DSC01> There are 17 copies of Unreal City available on the internet, priced as low as 6 USD. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sumantra Nag To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 2,Issue 6_D J Enright and Robert Liddell I wonder if the discussion on Justine could include references to Robert Liddell (Unreal City - a novel based on Cavafy and Alexandria, about which I have read, without having been able to get the book), and D J Enright's novel Academic Year, also set in Alexandria. There was a group of English writers based in Egypt (Cairo and Alexandria) during or around the time of WWII (there is an intereting reference on the Website http://www.crescentmoon.org.uk/cresmoalex - ALEXANDRIA REVISITED The Alexandria of Lawrence Durrell, C.P. Cavafy, Edmund Keeley and Others by Jeremy Robinson). Liddell was also a travel writer attached to Greece. Sumantra Nag __________ NOD32 2238 (20070503) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2238 (20070503) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070504/dbea7870/attachment.html From odos.fanourios at gmail.com Fri May 4 06:15:14 2007 From: odos.fanourios at gmail.com (James Gifford) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 07:15:14 -0600 Subject: [ilds] D J Enright and Robert Liddell In-Reply-To: <000a01c78e30$7c5ef200$0201a8c0@intel> Message-ID: Hello Sumantra, > I wonder if the discussion on Justine could include > references to Robert Liddell (Unreal City...), and > D J Enright's novel Academic Year Both Beatrice and I have commented on Liddell in past works, and I think the Unreal City with Eliot is a clear line. Also, Ken Segneurie gave a conference paper on Enright's novel at the MSA a few years ago. I've sent your message on to him. More to follow... Best, James From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Fri May 4 10:43:25 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 18:43:25 +0100 Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 2, Issue 6_D J Enright and Robert Liddell In-Reply-To: <000a01c78e30$7c5ef200$0201a8c0@intel> Message-ID: Strangely, Liddell's Unreal City is ostensibly set in a place he calls Caesarea. The Cavafy figure is called Mr Eugenides. Both of these are coy avoidances, and Liddell fails to put any thrust into his city or his poet, and the book, while of some interest, is pretty flat. D J Enright was forever pissed off that his earnest novel about lecturing at Farouk University (now Alexandria University) was so irretrievably dull compared to that dreadful News of the World version of Alexandria written by that charlatan Lawrence Durrell. Some things are just unforgivable. :Michael On Friday, May 4, 2007, at 10:42 am, Sumantra Nag wrote: > I wonder if the discussion on Justine could include references to > Robert Liddell (Unreal City - a novel based on Cavafy and Alexandria, > about which I have read, without having been able to get the book), > and D J Enright's novel Academic Year, also set in Alexandria. There > was a group of English writers based in Egypt (Cairo and Alexandria) > during or around the time of WWII (there is an intereting reference?on > the Website http://www.crescentmoon.org.uk/cresmoalex?- ALEXANDRIA > REVISITED The Alexandria of Lawrence Durrell, C.P. Cavafy, Edmund > Keeley and Others by Jeremy Robinson). Liddell was also a travel > writer attached to Greece. > ? > Sumantra Nag > ? > ? > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1661 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070504/63884f17/attachment.bin From sumantranag at gmail.com Fri May 4 09:18:15 2007 From: sumantranag at gmail.com (Sumantra Nag) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 21:48:15 +0530 Subject: [ilds] Fw: ILDS Digest, Vol 2, Issue 6_Alexandria Revisited Message-ID: <000e01c78e67$d47aecf0$0201a8c0@intel> FROM: http://www.crescentmoon.org.uk/cresmoalex (ALEXANDRIA REVISITED, The Alexandria of Lawrence Durrell, C.P. Cavafy, Edmund Keeley and Others by Jeremy Robinson) A few passages reproduced: 1. "Robert Liddell writes of Alexandria: Unreal City - for all its materialism and its hideousness, yet one of the cities of the soul. There I have known the misery and nostalgia of other exiles, 'stretching out our hands with love for the other shore'. (211)" 2. And on Durrell (there are many other observations): "Durrell doesn't simply write 'like a painter', he uses painting metaphors all the time, referring, for instance, to a sky looking like a painter has smashed his colourbox against it. And the chief protagonist of Clea, after Darley, is a painter (Clea)" 3. I thought this concluding paragraph from the extract quoted on this Website might give an idea of the 'colonial' background to what Durrell is writing about: "Alexandria provides Durrell with much 'local colour' as it's called, which he duly describes. As Durrell describes the squalor he inevitably romanticizes it, just as Shakespeare romanticized the 'primitives' in The Tempest.[4] Durrell treats the 'natives' of Egypt in a patronizing, colonial manner, which seems to be unavoidable. Shakespeare did it, Dickens did it, Greene did it, Huxley did it, Lawrence did it." But I would still say thay his prose and his own particular sensibility - if one may use the term - almost conceals the colonial response in the rich artistry of his creation. Sumantra Nag ----- Original Message ----- From: Sumantra Nag To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 3:12 PM Subject: Re: ILDS Digest, Vol 2, Issue 6_D J Enright and Robert Liddell I wonder if the discussion on Justine could include references to Robert Liddell (Unreal City - a novel based on Cavafy and Alexandria, about which I have read, without having been able to get the book), and D J Enright's novel Academic Year, also set in Alexandria. There was a group of English writers based in Egypt (Cairo and Alexandria) during or around the time of WWII (there is an intereting reference on the Website http://www.crescentmoon.org.uk/cresmoalex - ALEXANDRIA REVISITED The Alexandria of Lawrence Durrell, C.P. Cavafy, Edmund Keeley and Others by Jeremy Robinson). Liddell was also a travel writer attached to Greece. Sumantra Nag -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070504/57f2ccaa/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Fri May 4 11:44:39 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 14:44:39 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.24 -- Pursewarden Message-ID: <463B7F17.7010707@wfu.edu> Some textual changes /Justine /1957 versus /Justine /1962/ /to consider: * That summer Pombal decided to let his flat to Pursewarden] Thinking of that summer when Pombal decided to let his flat to Pursewarden (1.24) * He was little, fattish and blond] He was clever, tallish, and blond (1.24) The obvious observation is that LD was altering chronology and character to better match what he had written in the other books of the /Quartet/. But beyond the historical fact of the variant, what changes here with a sense of time and the reader's early and later impression of Pursewarden? Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070504/956d888e/attachment-0001.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Fri May 4 12:17:27 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 15:17:27 -0400 Subject: [ilds] The Dark Labyrinth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070504191725.EUMR26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070504/88702ef7/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Fri May 4 12:20:56 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 15:20:56 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.24 -- Pursewarden In-Reply-To: <463B7F17.7010707@wfu.edu> References: <463B7F17.7010707@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070504192043.LPX4560.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070504/faa8bb69/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Fri May 4 12:46:51 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 15:46:51 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.24 -- Pursewarden In-Reply-To: <20070504192043.LPX4560.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <463B7F17.7010707@wfu.edu> <20070504192043.LPX4560.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <463B8DAB.7040807@wfu.edu> On 5/4/2007 3:20 PM, william godshalk wrote: > Charlie, could you talk a little more about your question? What > changes here? In what ways? Hey, Bill. Is it okay to question the questioner? Maybe so. So here it is. * That summer Pombal decided to let his flat to Pursewarden] Thinking of that summer when Pombal decided to let his flat to Pursewarden (1.24) * He was little, fattish and blond] He was clever, tallish, and blond (1.24) The blondness of Pursewarden springs eternal, but his size and his mental capacities seem to be changing dramatically. I will note that, unless they seek out the Faber editions not for sale here, American readers must imagine Pursewarden as "little, fattish, and blond" while UK readers imagine Pursewarden in his later revised form, "clever, tallish, and blond." A good example of the way in which, whatever LD's intentions were, very different readers' experiences are loosed among the nations of the earth. The text never does get to exist in its Platonic form, that is for darn sure. Looking ahead through /Justine /and the /Quartet/, which Pursewarden seems more consistent to you? Thin and tall? Little and prone to carrying some weight? I clearly understand LD's quest for consistency within the larger /Quartet/, but I have to admit that P persists for me more like the earliest incarnation--"little, fattish and blond"--more suggestive of his maker, perhaps? And that tricking about and tinkering with the temporality--for me, "that summer Pombal decided" invokes a sort of specificity, telling us about something occurring in sequence, while "thinking of that summer when Pombal decided" seems to foreground a framing, filtering subjective consciousness, retrospecting and rummaging about among various past summers and locating the one "when." You /Quartet /chronologists--and there have been some--speak. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070504/328e57e1/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Fri May 4 16:32:28 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 19:32:28 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.24 -- Pursewarden In-Reply-To: <463B8DAB.7040807@wfu.edu> References: <463B7F17.7010707@wfu.edu> <20070504192043.LPX4560.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <463B8DAB.7040807@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070504233315.GCEI26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070504/89434df5/attachment.html From lillios at mail.ucf.edu Fri May 4 14:52:39 2007 From: lillios at mail.ucf.edu (Anna Lillios) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 17:52:39 -0400 Subject: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 2, Issue 6_D J Enright and Robert Liddell In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c78e30$7c5ef200$0201a8c0@intel> Message-ID: <463B72E70200004D000174BC@mail.ucf.edu> Roger Bowen's "Many Histories Deep": The Personal Landscape Poets in Egypt, 1940-45 briefly mentions Liddell and Enright, as well as his subject poets Durrell, Bernard Spencer, Keith Douglas, and Terence Tiller. Bowen evokes Cairo's "unreality" during WWII and its effect on these writers. --Anna Dr. Anna Lillios Associate Professor of English Department of English University of Central Florida P.O. Box 161346 Orlando, Florida 32816-1346 Phone: (407) 823-5161 FAX: (407) 823-6582 >>> Michael Haag 5/4/2007 12:43 PM >>> Strangely, Liddell's Unreal City is ostensibly set in a place he calls Caesarea. The Cavafy figure is called Mr Eugenides. Both of these are coy avoidances, and Liddell fails to put any thrust into his city or his poet, and the book, while of some interest, is pretty flat. D J Enright was forever pissed off that his earnest novel about lecturing at Farouk University (now Alexandria University) was so irretrievably dull compared to that dreadful News of the World version of Alexandria written by that charlatan Lawrence Durrell. Some things are just unforgivable. :Michael On Friday, May 4, 2007, at 10:42 am, Sumantra Nag wrote: > I wonder if the discussion on Justine could include references to > Robert Liddell (Unreal City - a novel based on Cavafy and Alexandria, > about which I have read, without having been able to get the book), > and D J Enright's novel Academic Year, also set in Alexandria. There > was a group of English writers based in Egypt (Cairo and Alexandria) > during or around the time of WWII (there is an intereting reference on > the Website http://www.crescentmoon.org.uk/cresmoalex - ALEXANDRIA > REVISITED The Alexandria of Lawrence Durrell, C.P. Cavafy, Edmund > Keeley and Others by Jeremy Robinson). Liddell was also a travel > writer attached to Greece. > > Sumantra Nag > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat May 5 08:55:51 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 11:55:51 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.24 -- Pursewarden revision In-Reply-To: <20070504233315.GCEI26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.emai l.uc.edu> References: <463B7F17.7010707@wfu.edu> <20070504192043.LPX4560.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <463B8DAB.7040807@wfu.edu> <20070504233315.GCEI26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070505155548.EBRA4560.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070505/d285e5d3/attachment-0001.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sat May 5 20:18:55 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 04:18:55 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.26 Message-ID: <85CB1F53-FB80-11DB-8CB5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> As a thrilling point of information I direct your attention to 1.26 with its list of bus stops. Zizinia is one stop, Bacos is another; there should be a comma between the two. A city may become a world when one loves one of its inhabitants, but it can be hell if you get off at the wrong stop. :Michael From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat May 5 20:17:15 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 23:17:15 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.10 Message-ID: <20070506031801.FYFH4560.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> >>DOES JUSTINE WEAR ANYTHING UNDER HER CLOTHES? You will note that >>she has "magnificent white teeth," but does she wear a bra and >>panties? Obviously this is not a question that can be answered >>unequivically, but the answer is important to the interpretation of Justine. WLG *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sat May 5 20:27:34 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 04:27:34 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.10 In-Reply-To: <20070506031801.FYFH4560.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: In brief, have the French deconstructed her lingerie? :Michael On Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 04:17 am, william godshalk wrote: > >>> DOES JUSTINE WEAR ANYTHING UNDER HER CLOTHES? You will note that >>> she has "magnificent white teeth," but does she wear a bra and >>> panties? Obviously this is not a question that can be answered >>> unequivically, but the answer is important to the interpretation of >>> Justine. > > WLG > > > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sat May 5 20:38:18 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 23:38:18 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.10 -- deconstructed In-Reply-To: References: <20070506031801.FYFH4560.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070506033934.FZJK4560.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Very, very clever, Michael, an aporia in Derridian thought. Or as Americans sometimes say, "there's a hole in the middle of it all." At 11:27 PM 5/5/2007, you wrote: >In brief, have the French deconstructed her lingerie? > >:Michael > >On Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 04:17 am, william godshalk wrote: > > > > >>> DOES JUSTINE WEAR ANYTHING UNDER HER CLOTHES? You will note that > >>> she has "magnificent white teeth," but does she wear a bra and > >>> panties? Obviously this is not a question that can be answered > >>> unequivically, but the answer is important to the interpretation of > >>> Justine. > > > > WLG > > > > > > *************************************** > > W. L. Godshalk * > > Department of English * > > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > > 513-281-5927 > > *************************************** > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ILDS mailing list > > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sat May 5 22:08:16 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 22:08:16 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.10 -- deconstructed Message-ID: <31024751.1178428096416.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I think we have struck just the right tone for further discussions of M. Durrell and his Justine. BR -----Original Message----- >From: william godshalk >Sent: May 5, 2007 8:38 PM >To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca >Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 1.10 -- deconstructed > >Very, very clever, Michael, an aporia in Derridian thought. Or as >Americans sometimes say, "there's a hole in the middle of it all." > > >At 11:27 PM 5/5/2007, you wrote: >>In brief, have the French deconstructed her lingerie? >> >>:Michael >> >>On Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 04:17 am, william godshalk wrote: >> >> > >> >>> DOES JUSTINE WEAR ANYTHING UNDER HER CLOTHES? You will note that >> >>> she has "magnificent white teeth," but does she wear a bra and >> >>> panties? Obviously this is not a question that can be answered >> >>> unequivically, but the answer is important to the interpretation of >> >>> Justine. >> > >> > WLG >> > >> > >> > *************************************** >> > W. L. Godshalk * >> > Department of English * >> > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >> > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >> > 513-281-5927 >> > *************************************** >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > ILDS mailing list >> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ >>ILDS mailing list >>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > >*************************************** >W. L. Godshalk * >Department of English * >University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >513-281-5927 >*************************************** > > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds From durrells at otenet.gr Sun May 6 01:24:44 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 11:24:44 +0300 Subject: [ilds] 'Lawrence Durrell and the Borders of Sanity' Message-ID: <003401c78fb8$0045d740$0100000a@DSC01> Members might wish to know that a chapter by Richard Pine, entitled 'Lawrence Durrell and the Borders of Sanity' has been published in a volume of Proceedings of the Durrell School of Corfu: Creativity, Madness and Civilisation (ed. R. Pine), Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2007. Synopsis What is 'creativity'? And what is 'madness'? How far can we interpret an artist's work through our knowledge of his or her mental state, and how far can we infer a mental state from a work of art? When does a work of art cease to be a personal statement by the artist and become a matter of public concern? The contributions to this book attempt to answer some of these questions. They come from a wide range of disciplines and experiences - a practising psychiatrist, a practising artist suffering from reactive depression, and critics working in literature, film, music and the visual arts. The essays include discussions of the 'myth of creativity', the music of Robert Schumann, the borders of sanity in the writing of Lawrence Durrell, the 'insane truth' of Virginia Woolf, the meeting of doctor and patient in the poetry of Anne Sexton, mood disorders in the fiction of David Foster Wallace, love and madness in the poetry of Hafiz of Shiraz, and the paintings of Adolf Wolfli. Central to this discussion of creativity, madness and civilisation is the difficulty of establishing an appropriate and effective vocabulary and mindset between critics and clinical psychiatrists, which would enable them to work together in understanding mental disturbance in creative artists. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/23daad23/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Sun May 6 08:22:31 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 11:22:31 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.26 In-Reply-To: <85CB1F53-FB80-11DB-8CB5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <85CB1F53-FB80-11DB-8CB5-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <463DF2B7.9020307@wfu.edu> On 5/5/2007 11:18 PM, Michael Haag wrote: >As a thrilling point of information I direct your attention to 1.26 >with its list of bus stops. Zizinia is one stop, Bacos is another; >there should be a comma between the two. A city may become a world >when one loves one of its inhabitants, but it can be hell if you get >off at the wrong stop. > That is a thrilling little point you make, Michael. I have long admired 1.26, that small interlude of urban impressions set between longer movements. "A city becomes a world when one loves one of its inhabitants" is among the finest sentences in the novel, and I have thought of it much in various travels over the years. Here I will share with the list a glimpse of "the /Justine /underneath /Justine/." (That seems apropos, given the recent turn in the discussion.) /Justine /1.26 was a late addition in red ink to the typescript: *X X X X X X X X * * Rue Bab-el-Mandeb, Rue Abou-El-Dardar, Minet-el-Barrol (streets slippery with discarded fluff from the cotton marts) Nouzha (the rose-garden, some remembered kisses) or bus-stops with haunted names like Saba Pacha, Mazloum, Zizinia, Bacos, Schutz, Gianaclis. A city becomes a world when one loves one of its inhabitants * *X X X X X X X* Michael will note, I think, that LD got his Alexandrian stops rather indifferently. Here in the typescript we can see that LD did in fact include the comma separating "Zizinia, Bacos." Why is the punctuation omitted in all of these later printings? He certainly had close contact with those who could set him straight, and we can verify that he took occasion to change "Minet-el-Barrol" (appearing in both typescript and Faber 1st / 1st of /Justine/) to "Minet-el-Bassal" (later Faber printings). And I am thinking of other moments in the text where LD chooses to leave the type-setter's innovations--such as "flesh-lips, eyes, water-ices, the coloured stall" (/Justine /1.4), which should be "flesh--lips, eyes, water-ices, the coloured stall." That was never set straight. (The ear of the poet takes precedence over the corrector's eye, I think. It is more important that the sounds of these names and words "haunt" evocatively.) Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/dfe9eb3b/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sun May 6 08:36:39 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 16:36:39 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.26 In-Reply-To: <463DF2B7.9020307@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <9504AEE6-FBE7-11DB-8597-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Actually it is all to do with how attentively Claude was working on corrections that day. In fact there is an argument for saying she wrote the Quartet, not Durrell. :Michael On Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 04:22 pm, slighcl wrote: > On 5/5/2007 11:18 PM, Michael Haag wrote: > > As a thrilling point of information I direct your attention to 1.26 > with its list of bus stops. Zizinia is one stop, Bacos is another; > there should be a comma between the two. A city may become a world > when one loves one of its inhabitants, but it can be hell if you get > off at the wrong stop. > > That is a thrilling little point you make, Michael.? I have long > admired 1.26, that small interlude of urban impressions set between > longer movements.? "A city becomes a world when one loves one of its > inhabitants" is among the finest sentences in the novel, and I have > thought of it much in various travels over the years. > > Here I will share with the list a glimpse of "the Justine underneath > Justine."? (That seems apropos, given the recent turn in the > discussion.)? Justine 1.26 was a late addition in red ink to the > typescript: > > X X X X X X X X > > ?Rue Bab-el-Mandeb, Rue Abou-El-Dardar, Minet-el-Barrol (streets > slippery > with discarded fluff from the cotton marts) Nouzha (the rose-garden, > some > ?remembered kisses) or bus-stops with haunted names like Saba Pacha, > Mazloum, > ?Zizinia, Bacos, Schutz, Gianaclis.? A city becomes a world when one > loves one of its > inhabitants > > X X X X X X X > > Michael will note, I think, that LD got his Alexandrian stops rather > indifferently.?? Here in the typescript we can see that LD did in fact > include the comma separating "Zizinia, Bacos."? Why is the punctuation > omitted in all of these later printings? ? He certainly had close > contact with those who could set him straight, and we can verify that > he took occasion to change "Minet-el-Barrol" (appearing in both > typescript and Faber 1st / 1st of Justine) to "Minet-el-Bassal"? > (later Faber printings).?? And I am thinking of other moments in the > text where LD chooses to leave the type-setter's innovations--such as > "flesh-lips, eyes, water-ices, the coloured stall" (Justine 1.4), > which should be "flesh--lips, eyes, water-ices, the coloured stall."? > That was never set straight.? (The ear of the poet takes precedence > over the corrector's eye, I think.? It is more important that the > sounds of these names and words "haunt" evocatively.) > > Charles > > -- > ********************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > Wake Forest University > slighcl at wfu.edu > ********************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3079 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/02e192f2/attachment-0001.bin From durrells at otenet.gr Sun May 6 09:21:09 2007 From: durrells at otenet.gr (Durrell School of Corfu) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:21:09 +0300 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.26 References: <9504AEE6-FBE7-11DB-8597-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <00ed01c78ffa$8eba04a0$0100000a@DSC01> Michael, presumably that insight about Claude will figure in your forthcoming biography of LD - it's a helluva statement! Richard Pine ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Haag To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 1.26 Actually it is all to do with how attentively Claude was working on corrections that day. In fact there is an argument for saying she wrote the Quartet, not Durrell. :Michael On Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 04:22 pm, slighcl wrote: On 5/5/2007 11:18 PM, Michael Haag wrote: As a thrilling point of information I direct your attention to 1.26 with its list of bus stops. Zizinia is one stop, Bacos is another; there should be a comma between the two. A city may become a world when one loves one of its inhabitants, but it can be hell if you get off at the wrong stop. That is a thrilling little point you make, Michael. I have long admired 1.26, that small interlude of urban impressions set between longer movements. "A city becomes a world when one loves one of its inhabitants" is among the finest sentences in the novel, and I have thought of it much in various travels over the years. Here I will share with the list a glimpse of "the Justine underneath Justine." (That seems apropos, given the recent turn in the discussion.) Justine 1.26 was a late addition in red ink to the typescript: X X X X X X X X Rue Bab-el-Mandeb, Rue Abou-El-Dardar, Minet-el-Barrol (streets slippery with discarded fluff from the cotton marts) Nouzha (the rose-garden, some remembered kisses) or bus-stops with haunted names like Saba Pacha, Mazloum, Zizinia, Bacos, Schutz, Gianaclis. A city becomes a world when one loves one of its inhabitants X X X X X X X Michael will note, I think, that LD got his Alexandrian stops rather indifferently. Here in the typescript we can see that LD did in fact include the comma separating "Zizinia, Bacos." Why is the punctuation omitted in all of these later printings? He certainly had close contact with those who could set him straight, and we can verify that he took occasion to change "Minet-el-Barrol" (appearing in both typescript and Faber 1st / 1st of Justine) to "Minet-el-Bassal" (later Faber printings). And I am thinking of other moments in the text where LD chooses to leave the type-setter's innovations--such as "flesh-lips, eyes, water-ices, the coloured stall" (Justine 1.4), which should be "flesh--lips, eyes, water-ices, the coloured stall." That was never set straight. (The ear of the poet takes precedence over the corrector's eye, I think. It is more important that the sounds of these names and words "haunt" evocatively.) Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ILDS mailing list ILDS at lists.uvic.ca https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds __________ NOD32 2245 (20070506) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/d610e77f/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sun May 6 09:35:17 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 17:35:17 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.26 In-Reply-To: <00ed01c78ffa$8eba04a0$0100000a@DSC01> Message-ID: I am joking only about eighty-five per cent. :Michael On Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 05:21 pm, Durrell School of Corfu wrote: > Michael, presumably that insight about Claude will figure in your > forthcoming biography of LD - it's a helluva statement! > Richard Pine > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Haag > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 6:36 PM > Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 1.26 > > Actually it is all to do with how attentively Claude was working on > corrections that day. In fact there is an argument for saying she > wrote the Quartet, not Durrell. > > :Michael > > > > On Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 04:22 pm, slighcl wrote: > > On 5/5/2007 11:18 PM, Michael Haag wrote: > > As a thrilling point of information I direct your attention to 1.26 > with its list of bus stops. Zizinia is one stop, Bacos is another; > there should be a comma between the two. A city may become a world > when one loves one of its inhabitants, but it can be hell if you get > off at the wrong stop. > > That is a thrilling little point you make, Michael.? I have long > admired 1.26, that small interlude of urban impressions set between > longer movements.? "A city becomes a world when one loves one of its > inhabitants" is among the finest sentences in the novel, and I have > thought of it much in various travels over the years. > > Here I will share with the list a glimpse of "the Justine underneath > Justine."? (That seems apropos, given the recent turn in the > discussion.)? Justine 1.26 was a late addition in red ink to the > typescript: > > X X X X X X X X > > ?Rue Bab-el-Mandeb, Rue Abou-El-Dardar, Minet-el-Barrol (streets > slippery > with discarded fluff from the cotton marts) Nouzha (the rose-garden, > some > ?remembered kisses) or bus-stops with haunted names like Saba Pacha, > Mazloum, > ?Zizinia, Bacos, Schutz, Gianaclis.? A city becomes a world when one > loves one of its > inhabitants > > X X X X X X X > > Michael will note, I think, that LD got his Alexandrian stops rather > indifferently.?? Here in the typescript we can see that LD did in fact > include the comma separating "Zizinia, Bacos."? Why is the punctuation > omitted in all of these later printings? ? He certainly had close > contact with those who could set him straight, and we can verify that > he took occasion to change "Minet-el-Barrol" (appearing in both > typescript and Faber 1st / 1st of Justine) to "Minet-el-Bassal"? > (later Faber printings).?? And I am thinking of other moments in the > text where LD chooses to leave the type-setter's innovations--such as > "flesh-lips, eyes, water-ices, the coloured stall" (Justine 1.4), > which should be "flesh--lips, eyes, water-ices, the coloured stall."? > That was never set straight.? (The ear of the poet takes precedence > over the corrector's eye, I think.? It is more important that the > sounds of these names and words "haunt" evocatively.) > > Charles > > -- > ********************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > Wake Forest University > slighcl at wfu.edu > ********************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > __________ NOD32 2245 (20070506) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3990 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/27ab98b5/attachment.bin From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun May 6 09:50:16 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 12:50:16 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Justine's boobs Message-ID: <20070506165011.HKTR4560.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/e7b27f3a/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sun May 6 09:58:13 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 17:58:13 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Justine's boobs In-Reply-To: <20070506165011.HKTR4560.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: Claude was fairly perky herself. :Michael On Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 05:50 pm, william godshalk wrote: > Well, if Durrell's notebooks do not lie -- and why would they? -- > Justine has boyish (i.e. perky) breasts, so she would need no bra. And > if she does even so wear a bra, that would surely suggest that she is > insecure in her sexuality. Are there other indications of such an > insecurity? Of course we must theoretically take Claude's editing of > Justine into account. Her jealousy of Justine -- un-justified of > course -- might well lead her to bowdlerize Justine's sexual > attributes and actions. > > Bill_______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 762 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/1e2efb71/attachment.bin From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun May 6 10:29:14 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 13:29:14 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Justine's bathing things Message-ID: <20070506172940.LVZU26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> There was been some interest -- offline -- in Justine's bathing things or bathing costume (Justine 1.22). Of course, our speculations can not be conclusive because of the lack of textual resources, but given our knowledge of the many faceted Justine, what kind of bathing costume would she wear? We recall that Nancy and Larry liked to swim in the nude on Corfu, and perhaps Justine would rapidly doff her things. But, no, she would opt for the mixture of mystery with sensuality which the proper bathing costume would promote. That leaves us with other possibilities. Two piece? How small? One piece? How revealing? Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From slighcl at wfu.edu Sun May 6 10:59:53 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 13:59:53 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Justine's bathing things In-Reply-To: <20070506172940.LVZU26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <20070506172940.LVZU26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <463E1799.5040701@wfu.edu> What can we learn from Cukor's film? Jamie thinks about that film all of the time, I think. What do you say, Jamie? Finished unpacking those books? Charles On 5/6/2007 1:29 PM, william godshalk wrote: >There was been some interest -- offline -- in Justine's bathing >things or bathing costume (Justine 1.22). Of course, our speculations >can not be conclusive because of the lack of textual resources, but >given our knowledge of the many faceted Justine, what kind of bathing >costume would she wear? We recall that Nancy and Larry liked to swim >in the nude on Corfu, and perhaps Justine would rapidly doff her >things. But, no, she would opt for the mixture of mystery with >sensuality which the proper bathing costume would promote. That >leaves us with other possibilities. Two piece? How small? One piece? >How revealing? > >Bill >*************************************** >W. L. Godshalk * >Department of English * >University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >513-281-5927 >*************************************** > > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sun May 6 10:53:19 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 18:53:19 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Justine's bathing things In-Reply-To: <20070506172940.LVZU26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: This is 1920s, so too early, but it is a start. It shows a variety of dress on one of Alexandria's beaches. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Alexandria beach.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 206581 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/d1a026eb/attachment-0001.jpg -------------- next part -------------- On Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 06:29 pm, william godshalk wrote: > There was been some interest -- offline -- in Justine's bathing > things or bathing costume (Justine 1.22). Of course, our speculations > can not be conclusive because of the lack of textual resources, but > given our knowledge of the many faceted Justine, what kind of bathing > costume would she wear? We recall that Nancy and Larry liked to swim > in the nude on Corfu, and perhaps Justine would rapidly doff her > things. But, no, she would opt for the mixture of mystery with > sensuality which the proper bathing costume would promote. That > leaves us with other possibilities. Two piece? How small? One piece? > How revealing? > > Bill > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun May 6 11:11:35 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 14:11:35 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's swim suit In-Reply-To: <463E1799.5040701@wfu.edu> References: <20070506172940.LVZU26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <463E1799.5040701@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070506181210.LZER26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Of course, we have the picture of D in swimming togs on the front of Ian's book, and in contrast we remember the photo of D and Miller on the rocks and wearing nada. But these photos can tell us little about Justine's preference of swimming costume. Bill *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sun May 6 11:25:05 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:25:05 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's swim suit -- and Darley's and Justine's [1.22] In-Reply-To: <20070506181210.LZER26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <1CFB771E-FBFF-11DB-8597-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> We know [1.22] that they were both wearing bathing suits at one point. Have I got a PhD yet? :Michael On Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 07:11 pm, william godshalk wrote: > Of course, we have the picture of D in swimming togs on the front of > Ian's book, and in contrast we remember the photo of D and Miller on > the rocks and wearing nada. But these photos can tell us little about > Justine's preference of swimming costume. > > Bill > *************************************** > W. L. Godshalk * > Department of English * > University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * > 513-281-5927 > *************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > From slighcl at wfu.edu Sun May 6 11:39:43 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 14:39:43 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Justine's bathing things -- alex photo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463E20EF.3060206@wfu.edu> A great photo of Alex now sunken into the sea, Michael. What does LD say in 1980? Ah. Here it is: The period described in this book is no longer alive. Alexandria today seems to have sunk into the dust; but she has so often done this that one cannot be at all sure that she will not one day revive and emerge from her sleep, The times are not propitious, however. . . . Arnauti's third novel might tell us more about all of this bathing costume query. I will be working with the Arnauti manuscripts at the Monasterium in Ghent this summer, so I will double-check. Surely there must be someting there? As a Paterian, I love thinking of LD's Alexandria (and Justine) as Pater's Lady Lisa. Here I quote from my notes on the copy of /The Renaissance/ that LD left behind after that legendary evening spent drinking and talking with Julio Cort?zar and Remedios Varo at Borges' flat in Buenos Aires. The underscoring may be LD's, or it may be Robert Byron's, who left the book behind him in London before sailing off to meet the German U-boat in 1941: The presence that thus so strangely rose beside the waters is expressive of what in the ways of a thousand years man had come to desire. _Hers is the head upon which all 'the ends of the world are come_,' and the eyelids are a little weary. It is a beauty _wrought out from within upon the flesh, the deposit, little cell by cell_, of strange thoughts and fantastic reveries and exquisite passions. Set it for a moment beside _one of those white Greek goddesses_ or beautiful women of antiquity, and how would they be troubled by this beauty, into which the soul with all its maladies has passed? All the thoughts and experience of the world have etched and moulded there in that which they have of power to refine and make expressive the outward form, the animalism of Greece, the lust of Rome, the reverie of the middle age with _its spiritual ambition and imaginative loves_, the return of the Pagan world, the sins of the Borgias. She is older than the rocks among which she sits; like the vampire, _she has been dead many times, and learned the secrets of the grave; and has been a diver in deep seas, and keeps their fallen day about her; and trafficked for strange webs with Eastern merchants_; and, as Leda, was the mother of Helen of Troy, and, as Saint Anne, the mother of Mary; and all this has been to her but as the sound of lyres and flutes, and lives only in the delicacy with which it has _moulded_ the changing lineaments and _tinged _the eyelids and the hands. The fancy of a perpetual life, sweeping together ten thousand experiences, is an old one; and _modern thought has conceived the idea of humanity as wrought upon by, and summing up in itself, all modes of thought and life_. Certainly Lady Lisa might stand as the embodiment of the old fancy, t_he symbol of the modern idea_. I hope that we shall have a lot to discuss about that. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/40fc04fe/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sun May 6 11:48:07 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 19:48:07 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine and bathing suits Message-ID: <549F51FE-FC02-11DB-8597-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Alexandria beaches, 1930s, bathing suits. The right decade this time. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Alex30s.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35838 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/f2002860/attachment-0002.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Alexbeach30s.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31260 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/f2002860/attachment-0003.jpg -------------- next part -------------- :Michael From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun May 6 11:52:43 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 14:52:43 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell's belt -- and Darley's and Justine's clothes [1.22] In-Reply-To: <1CFB771E-FBFF-11DB-8597-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <20070506181210.LZER26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <1CFB771E-FBFF-11DB-8597-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070506185328.MCBN26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Well, yes, they lie there on the beach in their wet bathing costumes (1.22) -- BUT it's becoming cooler (in the "last pale rays of the sun"). Will they take off their wet things? It would seem so in the pages that follow. Justine drives our narrator back to the city and drops him off at "the usual corner" near his flat. Would she allow him to walk the streets of Alex in a wet bathing suit? Surely not. At some point in this episode they change into dry street clothes. I think it is when the narrator tells Justine that "this has nothing to do with sex." Obviously this must be followed by a defiant belting of his trousers. Bill At 02:25 PM 5/6/2007, you wrote: >We know [1.22] that they were both wearing bathing suits at one point. *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun May 6 12:00:43 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 15:00:43 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Justine's bathing things -- alex photo In-Reply-To: <463E20EF.3060206@wfu.edu> References: <463E20EF.3060206@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070506190139.MCRV26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/6f7e6028/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun May 6 12:02:53 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 15:02:53 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine and bathing suits In-Reply-To: <549F51FE-FC02-11DB-8597-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> References: <549F51FE-FC02-11DB-8597-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20070506190318.HUSF4560.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> It certainly looks as if Justine must have been in a two piece suit. Or possibly she defied convention and had a two-piecer. At 02:48 PM 5/6/2007, you wrote: >Alexandria beaches, 1930s, bathing suits. The right decade this time. > > > > > > > > > > >:Michael > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun May 6 12:09:12 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 15:09:12 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine and bathing suits In-Reply-To: <20070506190318.HUSF4560.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email .uc.edu> References: <549F51FE-FC02-11DB-8597-000393B1149C@btinternet.com> <20070506190318.HUSF4560.gx5.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070506191017.MDHY26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> I meant ONE piece suit, of course. *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun May 6 12:36:47 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 15:36:47 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Thomas Jefferson In-Reply-To: <463E1799.5040701@wfu.edu> References: <20070506172940.LVZU26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <463E1799.5040701@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070506193642.HROZ2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/8aef6093/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sun May 6 13:09:58 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 21:09:58 +0100 Subject: [ilds] Durrell and Thomas Jefferson In-Reply-To: <20070506193642.HROZ2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: Old news. On Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 08:36 pm, william godshalk wrote: > Thomas Jefferson is the > Anti-Christ!_______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 278 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/d80da323/attachment.bin From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun May 6 13:40:31 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 13:40:31 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [ilds] Justine's undies Message-ID: <21364756.1178484031275.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I have as just returned from breakfast and found over twenty messages devoted to Justine's private habits. I feel as though I'm the last to arrive at a party of English Ph.D.'s and stumble upon everyone sprawled out on the floor and enjoying post-analytical exhaustion. So, I don't have much to add, if anyone's listening, except I truly enjoy Michael's photo of an Alexandrian beach scene, c. 1930. I like the debonair man in the white dinner jacket and the elderly one wearing a hat and holding a young lady provocatively. I also like the bold woman in one-piece bathing suit, who's staring at the camera with her one good eye and exposing a hairy armpit. All of which makes me think of Justine. Now I have to think that when Darley and Justine are in bed together, Darley too wears a splendid dinner jacket and quite possibly a matching hat. Justine, the more daring of the two, is probably in a black slip, smoking, and raising her arm in the fashion of the woman on the beach. I say all this because, although it's against my American sensibilities, I have sadly come to realize that European women in the old days didn't necessarily look like Hollywood starlets who don't have a hair on their flawless bodies below their finely plucked eyebrows. Nor do I think Darley and Justine prudish. Darley would not say, as the prince does about his wife in Lampedusa's Leopard, the woman who bore him six children, "I never saw her navel!" I'm sure Darely sees more. Bruce From slighcl at wfu.edu Sun May 6 16:46:01 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 19:46:01 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.27 - 1.29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463E68B9.3080306@wfu.edu> The /Justine /Reading Group will now make its merry way through the end of Part I (1.29)--all the way through the eye of the needle. Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/9af7287e/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun May 6 17:04:00 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 20:04:00 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.27 - 1.29 In-Reply-To: <463E68B9.3080306@wfu.edu> References: <463E68B9.3080306@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070507000355.IMJD2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/37b3f7f2/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun May 6 18:07:13 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 21:07:13 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.27 In-Reply-To: <463E68B9.3080306@wfu.edu> References: <463E68B9.3080306@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070507010718.ITCT2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/ba125cef/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sun May 6 18:16:49 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 02:16:49 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.27 In-Reply-To: <20070507010718.ITCT2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: That was a simple mistake and was corrected in a later Faber edition even before the 1962 Faber single-volume edition. The correction reads: 'a diary of Alexandrian life as seen by a foreigner in the early thirties'. :Michael On Monday, May 7, 2007, at 02:07 am, william godshalk wrote: > In 1.27, the narrator writes that Moeurs "enjoyed numerous reprintings > in the early thirties." In the next paragraph he says that it is "a > diary of Alexandrian life as seen by a stranger in the middle > thirties." So how does this work? It was reprinted numerous times > before it was written. > > I suppose that we may wonder about the narrator's sense of continuity. > How unreliable is he? > > And does this discrepancy hinder us from guessing just how old Justine > is? Apparently she married Arnauti "when she was very young." > > Bill_______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 976 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070507/efb6f837/attachment.bin From slighcl at wfu.edu Sun May 6 18:18:43 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 21:18:43 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.27 In-Reply-To: <20070507010718.ITCT2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <463E68B9.3080306@wfu.edu> <20070507010718.ITCT2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <463E7E73.2090208@wfu.edu> > On 5/6/2007 9:07 PM, william godshalk wrote: > In 1.27, the narrator writes that /Moeurs/ "enjoyed numerous > reprintings in the early thirties." In the next paragraph he says that > it is "a diary of Alexandrian life as seen by a stranger in the middle > thirties." So how does this work? It was reprinted numerous times > before it was written. LD (I mean "Claude") did catch that one, Bill. See that the later Fabers-- a diary of Alexandrian life as seen by a foreigner in the early thirties Charles -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/1d5ca72d/attachment-0001.html From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun May 6 18:25:00 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 21:25:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] Justine's undies Message-ID: <23450505.1178501100608.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Inconclusive textual references aside, I think Michael's photo shows the standards of elegance among Durrell's beautiful Alexandrians. And they are beautiful. European women didn't start adopting Hollywood standards of female beauty until fairly recently. Look at Fellini's women (e.g., the opening scene of La Dolce Vita, 1960). I like extra-textual approaches to textual omissions. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Haag >Sent: May 6, 2007 3:19 PM >To: slighcl >Cc: Bruce Redwine , Bill Godshalk >Subject: Re: [ilds] Justine's undies > >Shaved her legs, but that is all, or all we are told. > >:Michael > > >On Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 11:12 pm, slighcl wrote: > >> On 5/6/2007 4:40 PM, Bruce Redwine wrote: >> >> I say all this because, although it's against my American >> sensibilities, I have sadly come to realize that European women in the >> old days didn't necessarily look like Hollywood starlets who don't >> have a hair on their flawless bodies below their finely plucked >> eyebrows. >> >> Just to bring all of this back around to the text--cf. Justine >> ("Claudia") when >> >> "involuntarily her hands strayed to touch the smooth surface of the >> legs she had so carefully shaved that afternoon" (1.27). >> >> Forgive me for that, Bruce. Having collated the novel so many times >> means that almost all of its sentences are tattooed upon my brain. >> Also, reading Justine so long ago at the impressionable age of 15 >> means that my notions of the Mysteries of Woman are bent irrevocably >> by LD's text. So for instance I know as if by reflex that Melissa >> also has "depilatories from Sardis" (2.4), and the historical >> consciousness of Nessim's dream cycles thinks of "a new depilatory >> from Egypt" (3.3). Melissa also has "eyebrows artificially pointed >> upwards" (1.8). That all put thoughts in a rather provincial >> teenager's mind, I am certain. >> >> Share that or chunk that. An indifference I am learning to share. . . >> . >> >> Charles >> >> -- >> ********************** >> Charles L. Sligh >> Department of English >> Wake Forest University >> slighcl at wfu.edu >> ********************** >> From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun May 6 18:27:09 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 21:27:09 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.27 -- distrust In-Reply-To: <463E7E73.2090208@wfu.edu> References: <463E68B9.3080306@wfu.edu> <20070507010718.ITCT2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <463E7E73.2090208@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070507012745.IVJR2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/f546688d/attachment.html From michaelhaag at btinternet.com Sun May 6 18:32:11 2007 From: michaelhaag at btinternet.com (Michael Haag) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 02:32:11 +0100 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.27 -- distrust In-Reply-To: <20070507012745.IVJR2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: Not by a Faber editor. :Michael On Monday, May 7, 2007, at 02:27 am, william godshalk wrote: > Just goes to show you that the narrator is not to be trusted! He had > to be corrected by an editor or possibly Durrell himself > > Bill > > At 09:18 PM 5/6/2007, you wrote: > > On 5/6/2007 9:07 PM, william godshalk wrote: > In 1.27, the narrator writes that Moeurs "enjoyed numerous reprintings > in the early thirties." In the next paragraph he says that it is "a > diary of Alexandrian life as seen by a stranger in the middle > thirties." So how does this work? It was reprinted numerous times > before it was written. > > > LD (I mean "Claude") did catch that one, Bill.? See that the later > Fabers-- > > a diary of Alexandrian life as seen by a foreigner in the early > thirties > > Charles > > -- > ********************** > Charles L. Sligh > Department of English > Wake Forest University > slighcl at wfu.edu > ********************** > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > _______________________________________________ > ILDS mailing list > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1363 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070507/f2f5a66e/attachment.bin From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun May 6 18:34:58 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 21:34:58 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.27 In-Reply-To: References: <20070507010718.ITCT2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <20070507013453.NKAL26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> I just checked my Pocket Book 1969 edition which ends with "So that . . . ." (a later reading), and it retains the earlier mistakes of "early" and "middle." Charlie, I realize that you have already pointed some of these strange textual problems, these mixed texts. Can I call them that? Bill >That was a simple mistake and was corrected in a later Faber edition >even before the 1962 Faber single-volume edition. The correction >reads: 'a diary of Alexandrian life as seen by a foreigner in the >early thirties'. *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From bredwine1968 at earthlink.net Sun May 6 18:39:08 2007 From: bredwine1968 at earthlink.net (Bruce Redwine) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 21:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ilds] Justine's undies Message-ID: <16689954.1178501948300.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The mind does reel. The ancient Egyptians had this notions about writing. Writing is magic. It keeps people and things alive, but you need a reader to complete the process. If you want to destroy someone, you erase his or her name. That is death. So, we're priests in the service of eternity. LD should be happy, wherever he is. Bruce -----Original Message----- >From: slighcl >Sent: May 6, 2007 5:40 PM >To: Michael Haag >Cc: Bruce Redwine , Godshalk >Subject: Re: Justine's undies > >On 5/6/2007 5:33 PM, Michael Haag wrote: > >> I am glad you liked the photograph. It is a favourite of mine. I >> have collected thousands of photographs of Alexandria as it was in its >> cosmopolitan heyday and am putting a selection of them together as a >> book. The bold woman in black looking directly at the camera (shadow >> or something over one eye: both eyes were in fact good) later came to >> know Durrell; I tracked that connection down in a diary. > >God. My mind reels. That picture. That woman. That day in Alex. Now >broadcast digitally across thousands of miles because she sometime later >crossed paths with Durrell and because Durrell wrote words that others >still read. That is a plot to limn, for certain. > >C > >-- >********************** >Charles L. Sligh >Department of English >Wake Forest University >slighcl at wfu.edu >********************** > > From slighcl at wfu.edu Sun May 6 18:48:28 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 21:48:28 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.27 In-Reply-To: <20070507013453.NKAL26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <20070507010718.ITCT2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070507013453.NKAL26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <463E856C.6070900@wfu.edu> > > > On 5/6/2007 9:34 PM, william godshalk wrote: > >I just checked my Pocket Book 1969 edition which ends with "So that . >. . ." (a later reading), and it retains the earlier mistakes of >"early" and "middle." Charlie, I realize that you have already >pointed some of these strange textual problems, these mixed texts. >Can I call them that? > Call it "continental drift among the plates." Those little mass market paper backs are pretty kooky. And do not even bring up the Franklin Mint /Justine /(1980). LD put his signature on that edition--strictly speaking, as those who place implicit faith in the author so often do, no other edition of /Justine /carries LD's /imprimatur/--and he wrote the new intro, but the text moves backward and even omits the breaks between episodes. Just remind yourself: the author's intention = make his money while the getting is good. C-- -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/a6e89fd1/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun May 6 18:54:00 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 21:54:00 -0400 Subject: [ilds] Justine's undies -- the reality thereof In-Reply-To: <16689954.1178501948300.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa .earthlink.net> References: <16689954.1178501948300.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20070507015405.NMDL26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Yes, the characters in the novels and the author himself have a reality contingent on us. At 09:39 PM 5/6/2007, you wrote: >The mind does reel. The ancient Egyptians had this notions about >writing. Writing is magic. It keeps people and things alive, but >you need a reader to complete the process. If you want to destroy >someone, you erase his or her name. That is death. So, we're >priests in the service of eternity. LD should be happy, wherever he is. > >Bruce > >-----Original Message----- > >From: slighcl > >Sent: May 6, 2007 5:40 PM > >To: Michael Haag > >Cc: Bruce Redwine , Godshalk > > >Subject: Re: Justine's undies > > > >On 5/6/2007 5:33 PM, Michael Haag wrote: > > > >> I am glad you liked the photograph. It is a favourite of mine. I > >> have collected thousands of photographs of Alexandria as it was in its > >> cosmopolitan heyday and am putting a selection of them together as a > >> book. The bold woman in black looking directly at the camera (shadow > >> or something over one eye: both eyes were in fact good) later came to > >> know Durrell; I tracked that connection down in a diary. > > > >God. My mind reels. That picture. That woman. That day in Alex. Now > >broadcast digitally across thousands of miles because she sometime later > >crossed paths with Durrell and because Durrell wrote words that others > >still read. That is a plot to limn, for certain. > > > >C > > > >-- > >********************** > >Charles L. Sligh > >Department of English > >Wake Forest University > >slighcl at wfu.edu > >********************** > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds *************************************** W. L. Godshalk * Department of English * University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * 513-281-5927 *************************************** From slighcl at wfu.edu Sun May 6 19:05:40 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 22:05:40 -0400 Subject: [ilds] LD -- the reality thereof In-Reply-To: <20070507015405.NMDL26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <16689954.1178501948300.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070507015405.NMDL26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <463E8974.5030305@wfu.edu> > > > On 5/6/2007 9:54 PM, william godshalk wrote: > >Yes, the characters in the novels and the author himself have a >reality contingent on us. > >At 09:39 PM 5/6/2007, you wrote: > > > >>The mind does reel. The ancient Egyptians had this notions about >>writing. Writing is magic. It keeps people and things alive, >> George Eliot, Walter Pater, George Gissing, Thomas Hardy, et. al. would have called this "subjective immortality." LD gave us El Skob as the prime example of how it all works after we are gone. The old pirate gets beatified (!). Ron, his green Amazonian parrot--"crisp as a fart, eh Ron?"--recalls the dead Scobie's voice impeccably for Clea, until the mimicry "gradually wore out, like an old disc, and he seemed to do it less often and with less sureness of voice. It was like Scobie himself dying very gradually into silence." LD is the same. He persists as long as we keep shuffling his pages and finding something to think and to say about them. Then he dies very gradually into silence. Here's to renascence. CLS >> but >>you need a reader to complete the process. If you want to destroy >>someone, you erase his or her name. That is death. So, we're >>priests in the service of eternity. LD should be happy, wherever he is. >> >>Bruce >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >> >>>From: slighcl >>>Sent: May 6, 2007 5:40 PM >>>To: Michael Haag >>>Cc: Bruce Redwine , Godshalk >>> >>> >> >> >> >>>Subject: Re: Justine's undies >>> >>>On 5/6/2007 5:33 PM, Michael Haag wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>I am glad you liked the photograph. It is a favourite of mine. I >>>>have collected thousands of photographs of Alexandria as it was in its >>>>cosmopolitan heyday and am putting a selection of them together as a >>>>book. The bold woman in black looking directly at the camera (shadow >>>>or something over one eye: both eyes were in fact good) later came to >>>>know Durrell; I tracked that connection down in a diary. >>>> >>>> >>>God. My mind reels. That picture. That woman. That day in Alex. Now >>>broadcast digitally across thousands of miles because she sometime later >>>crossed paths with Durrell and because Durrell wrote words that others >>>still read. That is a plot to limn, for certain. >>> >>>C >>> >>>-- >>>********************** >>>Charles L. Sligh >>>Department of English >>>Wake Forest University >>>slighcl at wfu.edu >>>********************** >>> >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>ILDS mailing list >>ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >>https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds >> >> > >*************************************** >W. L. Godshalk * >Department of English * >University of Cincinnati Stellar disorder * >Cincinnati OH 45221-0069 * >513-281-5927 >*************************************** > > >_______________________________________________ >ILDS mailing list >ILDS at lists.uvic.ca >https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds > > > > -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/4c04cd22/attachment-0001.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun May 6 19:08:22 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 22:08:22 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.27 In-Reply-To: <463E856C.6070900@wfu.edu> References: <20070507010718.ITCT2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070507013453.NKAL26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <463E856C.6070900@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070507020907.IZZD2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/35b32fb9/attachment.html From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun May 6 19:14:17 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 22:14:17 -0400 Subject: [ilds] LD -- the reality thereof In-Reply-To: <463E8974.5030305@wfu.edu> References: <16689954.1178501948300.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20070507015405.NMDL26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <463E8974.5030305@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070507021512.JANX2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/2cfc1379/attachment.html From slighcl at wfu.edu Sun May 6 19:21:45 2007 From: slighcl at wfu.edu (slighcl) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 22:21:45 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.27 In-Reply-To: <20070507020907.IZZD2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> References: <20070507010718.ITCT2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070507013453.NKAL26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <463E856C.6070900@wfu.edu> <20070507020907.IZZD2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> Message-ID: <463E8D39.6010002@wfu.edu> I know the Fabers and the Dutton / Penguins, Bill. What I see happening from the cursory tracking I once did in those Pocket Books is at best a guess. The Pocket Books use the old Duttons as a copy text, but someone "in the know" said rather hey, by the way, LD put in X, tidied up Y & Z, but all of that based on no systematic tracking of the changes. "Editorial interference," call it what you will. . . . Do you read those Pocket Book editions for the covers, Bill? CLS The image -- ********************** Charles L. Sligh Department of English Wake Forest University slighcl at wfu.edu ********************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/55b93071/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 6778_1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 22329 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/55b93071/attachment-0001.jpe From godshawl at email.uc.edu Sun May 6 20:01:13 2007 From: godshawl at email.uc.edu (william godshalk) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 23:01:13 -0400 Subject: [ilds] RG Justine 1.27 In-Reply-To: <463E8D39.6010002@wfu.edu> References: <20070507010718.ITCT2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <20070507013453.NKAL26782.gx6.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <463E856C.6070900@wfu.edu> <20070507020907.IZZD2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> <463E8D39.6010002@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <20070507030254.JEXB2447.gx4.fuse.net@bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.uvic.ca/pipermail/ilds/attachments/20070506/6f9675d4/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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