[ilds] From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>Message: 5 Issue 69_reply to Message 3 from Sumantra

Sumantra Nag sumantranag at gmail.com
Mon Apr 23 22:39:26 PDT 2007


Thank you Charles for your response and all the observations. I have read
Key to Modern Poetry and you have suggested that I might read that again.

Many members of the ILDS email discussion group may also want to discuss on
Lawrence Durrell more generally as well - a facility which was formerly
available to them. How can that be restored? Here I must thank Denise Tart &
David Green for making this point [Issue 71].

I agree that for a Reading Group on Justine, the
text and its details should be the anchor point of further discussions. As I
have tried to acknowledge, the detailed discussions are often enormously
informative for the lay but interested reader. And a detailed reading of the
text should be encouraged by lay readers as well. It is just that such
readers may have some burning questions which can be
linked with the discussion or at least addressed briefly, as you have taken
the trouble to do!


Regards to all

Sumantra
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca>
To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 11:17 PM
Subject: ILDS Digest, Vol 1, Issue 69


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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: the bullshit art of active reading (andy)
>    2. Re: the duck shoot on Lake Mareotis (Durrell School of Corfu)
>    3. Re: ILDS Digest, Vol 1, Issue 67 (Sumantra Nag)
>    4. THOUGHTLESSNESS (andy)
>    5. Re: RG Justine posts (slighcl)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 01:26:48 -0400
> From: "andy" <nampilot at cox.net>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] the bullshit art of active reading
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Message-ID: <030901c78567$fd9785c0$a5210044 at your4dacd0ea75>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> > I'm too, too hard-headed to believe in Universal Texts. As a devout
> > atheist, I can hardly believe in metaphysics.
>
> WHERE DOES IT ALL COME FROM?
>
> >
> > As for smuggling books, I suggest that rifles are more effective for
> > fighting dictators.
> >
> are they not only the mere forms of ideas?
>
> > My literary beliefs are skeptical.
>
> my litearary beliefs are paralyzed.
>
>
> > In politics I believe primarily in MoveOn and other left wing action
> > groups.
>
> in politics, i believe in Pursewarden.
>
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > so all the smuggling of banned texts in russia, then germany, then
russia
> > again, was not worth the lives of those shot in the head for having them
> > in
> > their pants, as an expression of increased value, and the ultimate
> > indestructability of the universal text?
> > ***************************************
> > W. L. Godshalk *
> > Department of English         *
> > University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> > 513-281-5927
> > ***************************************
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ILDS mailing list
> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:10:33 +0300
> From: "Durrell School of Corfu" <durrells at otenet.gr>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] the duck shoot on Lake Mareotis
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Message-ID: <01d501c7858f$a16dbe90$0100000a at DSC01>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> An Egyptian law of 1912 forbade the shooting of Wheatear, Warbler,
Wagtail,
> Pipit, Flycatcher, Lark, Bee-eater, Hoopoe, Stone Curlew, Green Plover,
> Spur-winged Plover and Egret, all of which (except the 2 latter) are (or
> were) inhabitants of Lake Mareotis. The law was not adhered to.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "william godshalk" <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> To: <gifford at uvic.ca>; <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 4:18 AM
> Subject: [ilds] the duck shoot on Lake Mareotis
>
>
> > Jamie,
> >
> > Someone -- I think your wife or Charlie -- told me that you had found
> > the source for the duck shoot. This someone thought that the source
> > was Lane, Modern Egyptians. But I just checked Lane rather rapidly
> > (Table of Contents, Index, and skim -- not letting the book get
> > control of me) and didn't find a duck shoot.
> >
> > If you tell me, I will keep it to myself. Honest. But I'm curious
> > because I searched for the source of that damned duck shoot for years
> > -- and obviously didn't find it. Recently I began collecting books
> > that Durrell used -- and I'd like to get this one.
> >
> > Bill
> > ***************************************
> > W. L. Godshalk *
> > Department of English         *
> > University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> > 513-281-5927
> > ***************************************
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ILDS mailing list
> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> >
> >
> > __________ NOD32 2211 (20070423) Information __________
> >
> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> > http://www.eset.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:12:50 +0530
> From: "Sumantra Nag" <sumantranag at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] ILDS Digest, Vol 1, Issue 67
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Message-ID: <002201c785be$0f67f4a0$c9c3a37a at abc>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Is the discussion not going off NOW into channels which are not dealing
> sufficiently with the text of _Justine_? And is there a predominance of
> exchanges between three commentators with only a few interjections from
> other readers??!! But the issue about the duck shoot is relevant and so
are
> many other very scholarly attempts to follow the trail of meanings in the
> text; but sometimes, the exchanges seem to get stuck on single points!!
>
> May I put the following questions, which are general to_Justine_ but also
> arise from the reading of Sections 1.1-1.9 where the style of writing for
> the rest of the book and most of the AQ, is introduced:
>
> Who are the major literary influences on Durrell's style? It seems from
> information exchanged here that he was writing on the script of Justine
for
> many years, so of course his "own voice" dominates. But the richness of
his
> language has been compared (or related) to many writers: Lytton Strachey,
> the Sitwells, Sir Thomas Browne, De Quincey. And his descriptions have
been
> compared with those of Dickens. It would be interesting to get some
> insights.
>
> Sumantra Nag
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca>
> To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 12:30 AM
> Subject: ILDS Digest, Vol 1, Issue 67
>
>
> > Send ILDS mailing list submissions to
> > ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > ilds-request at lists.uvic.ca
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > ilds-owner at lists.uvic.ca
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of ILDS digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. Re: the bullshit art of active reading (william godshalk)
> >    2. the duck shoot on Lake Mareotis (william godshalk)
> >    3. Re: RG Justine 1.4 -- active reading & Justine (andy)
> >    4. Re: the bullshit art of active reading (andy)
> >    5. Re: RG Justine 1.4 -- active reading & Justine (Rita)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 18:51:32 -0400
> > From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [ilds] the bullshit art of active reading
> > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> > Message-ID:
> > <20070421225135.GEGD16799.gx6.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> >
> >
> > >Andy writes:
> > >
> > >"absolue proof.  books DO change. after you rip them to pieces.  but as
> in
> > >bookburning, doesnt that make them more powerful?"
> >
> >
> > No, no, no! I changed after reading Ruthven's book. The book remains
> > the same. Same words -- my underlining.
> >
> > If you burn all the copies of a book -- generally impossible -- you
> > have essentially destroyed the book.
> >
> > Bill
> > ***************************************
> > W. L. Godshalk *
> > Department of English         *
> > University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> > 513-281-5927
> > ***************************************
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 21:18:55 -0400
> > From: william godshalk <godshawl at email.uc.edu>
> > Subject: [ilds] the duck shoot on Lake Mareotis
> > To: gifford at uvic.ca, ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> > Message-ID:
> > <20070422011859.GQQD18874.gx4.fuse.net at bill-hdl5a49h32.email.uc.edu>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> >
> > Jamie,
> >
> > Someone -- I think your wife or Charlie -- told me that you had found
> > the source for the duck shoot. This someone thought that the source
> > was Lane, Modern Egyptians. But I just checked Lane rather rapidly
> > (Table of Contents, Index, and skim -- not letting the book get
> > control of me) and didn't find a duck shoot.
> >
> > If you tell me, I will keep it to myself. Honest. But I'm curious
> > because I searched for the source of that damned duck shoot for years
> > -- and obviously didn't find it. Recently I began collecting books
> > that Durrell used -- and I'd like to get this one.
> >
> > Bill
> > ***************************************
> > W. L. Godshalk *
> > Department of English         *
> > University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> > 513-281-5927
> > ***************************************
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 00:35:07 -0400
> > From: "andy" <nampilot at cox.net>
> > Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 1.4 -- active reading & Justine
> > To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> > Message-ID: <01dc01c78497$9ad13b00$a5210044 at your4dacd0ea75>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > reply-type=original
> >
> > >
> > > To me it seems counter-intuitive to say that books actively do
> > > anything. Narratives have a contingent reality. That is, if they are
> > > not read -- if they are lost in the sands of Egypt -- it is almost as
> > > if they do not exist. They certainly don't exist for the humans who
> > > do not know of their existence.
> > >
> > i would offer, for severe criticism, the concept of one universal text.
> >
> > all books are simply variations thereof.
> >
> > just check any barn and ignoble shelf.
> >
> > you've been there, done that.
> >
> > read it all.
> >
> > nothing new, after awhile.
> >
> > why?
> >
> > one universal text.
> >
> > quite limited actually.
> >
> > vary from its central theme, and you are relegated to the dust bins.
> >
> > before publication.
> >
> > what will we be writing in ten thousand years?
> >
> > so the book buried in the sand sings just as loud as clark clifford's
> hoax.
> >
> > books do not have to be read to exist.
> >
> > they were written.
> >
> > that is the song.
> >
> > best to all
> >
> > nonfeeling bser
> >
> > >
> > > Bill -- in his library
> > > ***************************************
> > > W. L. Godshalk *
> > > Department of English         *
> > > University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> > > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> > > 513-281-5927
> > > ***************************************
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > ILDS mailing list
> > > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 00:41:43 -0400
> > From: "andy" <nampilot at cox.net>
> > Subject: Re: [ilds] the bullshit art of active reading
> > To: <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> > Message-ID: <023a01c78498$8753a5d0$a5210044 at your4dacd0ea75>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > reply-type=original
> >
> >
> > > If you burn all the copies of a book -- generally impossible -- you
> > > have essentially destroyed the book.
> > >
> > > Bill
> >
> > so all the smuggling of banned texts in russia, then germany, then
russia
> > again, was not worth the lives of those shot in the head for having them
> in
> > their pants, as an expression of increased value, and the ultimate
> > indestructability of the universal text?
> >
> >  ***************************************
> > > W. L. Godshalk *
> > > Department of English         *
> > > University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> > > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> > > 513-281-5927
> > > ***************************************
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > ILDS mailing list
> > > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 08:32:48 +0200
> > From: Rita <favorita at tiscali.nl>
> > Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 1.4 -- active reading & Justine
> > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> > Message-ID: <000001c784a8$0bcbb460$7503a8c0 at Beneden>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > I think it's time to make myself more clear.
> > "Never trust the writer, trust the tale (the book) but also never trust
> > the reader trust the tale" And why is that? Because there is more in the
> > tale then the writer writes with his mind (and pen or typewriter :) )and
> > there is more in the tale then the reader can read. That is what I mean
> > with the tale/book/novel exists. And as with us it has identity and it
> > changes in and with time
> > I would say that the AQ is our (the reader's and also the writer's)
> > Alexandria.
> > To analyze the novel is a mind thing, to read it from the existence of
> > the novel is a different thing.
> >
> > But thinking about a book as a book , it is a book.....
> > I know Bill that it gets its meaning when it is related with something
> > else, and the purpose of a book is to be read. I know you will answer
> > the purpose of the writer who puts his writing in a book and a reader
> > who will read it.
> >
> > Rita
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca [mailto:ilds-bounces at lists.uvic.ca] On
> > Behalf Of william godshalk
> > Sent: zondag 22 april 2007 0:47
> > To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> > Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine 1.4 -- active reading & Justine
> >
> >
> > >Andy asks: "can books speak without being read?"
> > A good, basic question. I have also heard the question asked like
> > this: "do books read themselves?"
> >
> > Even people who affirm in their writing that books do not read
> > themselves, will talk as if they do. I am here thinking of Kendall
> > Walton in Mimesis as Make-Believe: On the Foundations of the
> > Representational Arts.
> >
> > To me it seems counter-intuitive to say that books actively do
> > anything. Narratives have a contingent reality. That is, if they are
> > not read -- if they are lost in the sands of Egypt -- it is almost as
> > if they do not exist. They certainly don't exist for the humans who
> > do not know of their existence.
> >
> > And, Rita, this is NOT to say that I don't have great pleasure
> > reading among my books. I do.
> >
> > I'm somewhat amazed that no one has brought up audio cassettes. But
> > even there, to listen to them you have to activate your CD player.
> >
> > Bill -- in his library
> > ***************************************
> > W. L. Godshalk *
> > Department of English         *
> > University of Cincinnati            Stellar disorder  *
> > Cincinnati OH 45221-0069      *
> > 513-281-5927
> > ***************************************
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ILDS mailing list
> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ILDS mailing list
> > ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> > https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
> >
> >
> > End of ILDS Digest, Vol 1, Issue 67
> > ***********************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:03:24 -0400
> From: "andy" <nampilot at cox.net>
> Subject: [ilds] THOUGHTLESSNESS
> To: "player" <ilds at lists.uvic.ca>
> Message-ID: <000701c785c9$4e427f50$a5210044 at your4dacd0ea75>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> dear friends
> of the international order
> of the latter day saints
>
> although humor is my crutch
>
> please take this comment as sincre
>
> i truly thank you
>
> for having given me the greatest gift possible
>
> in my limited cosmolgy:
>
> provocation
>
> out of my comfort envelope
>
> and into pondering
>
> as i walk the fields and woods
>
> my life has changed
>
> as a result of your input
>
> your thoughts.
>
> thinking of key concepts
>
> you have offered
>
> i am changed.
>
> no greater gift
>
> thank you.
>
> best to all
>
> andy
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:47:50 -0400
> From: slighcl <slighcl at wfu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ilds] RG Justine posts
> To: ilds at lists.uvic.ca
> Message-ID: <462CF146.9070103 at wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> A note from a listserv moderator--
>
> Sumantra asks
>
> >Is the discussion not going off NOW into channels which are not dealing
> >sufficiently with the text of _Justine_?
> >
> I will offer up a tentative agreement, with a proviso.  I find that am
> far more likely to value and learn from postings anchoring  themselves
> in the words of /Justine/.  Dismissals and disagreements without textual
> evidence do not carry much weight.  If we all recall the novel as a
> starting point for any new RG posting, then I think that the points made
> will make a better contribution to the discussion.  Contribute.  Agree.
> Disagree.  Question.  Digress.  Obfuscate. Just make certain to start
> and stop with /Justine/.  Let the book's "dim momentum in the mind" be
> "the fugue upon which the writing is made" (1.6)
>
> Having said that, I would also point out that the now somewhat lengthy
> debate over the roles of authors, readers, and texts is central to the
> /Quartet/, coming to the foreground with /Balthazar/.  The issues of
> active versus passive reading are central, but many of the postings
> could do a better job of offering up words from the text as proof.
> Readers, roll up your sleeves and get your hands involved.  Tear the
> heart out of the book with your fingers, like a fresh loaf (Workpoints/
> Consequential Data).
>
> >And is there a predominance of
> >exchanges between three commentators with only a few interjections from
> >other readers??!!
> >
> I am afraid that the only blame can be placed on those sitting out
> silently on the virtual edges of our discussion.  The more subscribers
> posting, the greater diversity in the conversation.  Three cheers for
> all posting currently.  You are the only ones keeping the /Justine /RG
> alive at the moment.   Worthy pioneers, all.
>
> >Who are the major literary influences on Durrell's style? [. . . .] the
richness of his
> >language has been compared (or related) to many writers: Lytton Strachey,
> >the Sitwells, Sir Thomas Browne, De Quincey.
> >
> Yes.  Any attempt to locate single influential models--or even
> influential movements--seems inadequate.  In LD you are dealing with a
> writer who is too eclectic in taste, untainted by the literary
> expectations of the academy which has never been able to place him and
> thereore has left him ignored.  In his lectures on literature he was
> working towards an impressively broad and heterodox take on what used to
> be called "the tradition."  Witness LD arguing for us to rethink our
> assumption as he writes in the "Minor Mythologies" essay, from the
> decade leading up to /Justine/:
>
>         Today the distinction between "highbrow" and "lowbrow" art is
>         significant of the split in society.  Each section has, so to
>         speak, developed its own myth-makers, its own criteria.  The
>         reader who enjoys Proust and Kafka will seldom confess that he
>         enjoys P.G. Wodehouse, and vice versa. . . .
>
> LD was ready to confess that he did enjoy high and low literature, and
> /Justine /is one of the documents submitted as evidence.  I like your
> gestures to Strachey's eighteenth-century urbanity and Browne's baroque
> mannerisms.  Shax and the beloved Elizas, also.  Eliot.  Norman Douglas
> and other "silver age stylists."  A huge inventory of authors discarded
> by the enforcing authorities of his particular moment--cf. Arthur
> Machen.  Dickens for the Scobie material. You might also reread /A Key
> to Modern British Poetry/ and Pursewarden's letters to Brother Ass.
>
> CLS
>
> -- 
> **********************
> Charles L. Sligh
> Department of English
> Wake Forest University
> slighcl at wfu.edu
> **********************
>
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> ------------------------------
>
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> ILDS mailing list
> ILDS at lists.uvic.ca
> https://lists.uvic.ca/mailman/listinfo/ilds
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>
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